The Joker Vs. The Punisher

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strifex6
If The Joker was one of The Punisher's villains would he be defeated?

or would The Joker end up with his head blown off?

Red Hulk
Joker would pull a 'Last Laugh' on him.

Aster Phoenix
Did you check to see if this has been done before?

strifex6
no but i should've

why has it?

psycho gundam
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/25/jokerlastlaughbk04of060ds9.th.jpg

strifex6
lol nice scan

TricksterPriest
Frank should thank every god in Marvel that he never has to face Joker. It's an unwinnable battle for him.

The only way Joker would lose is in a confined space with no weapons, and even then it's not certain.

fascistcrusader
Joker gets slaughtered by Frank. The only reason the Joker is so feared is because Batman, despite how many times he catches him, refuses to put him down for good. He's just had a lot of second chances because Bruce doesn't have the balls to do what he needs to. Frank would put a .50 round through the clown's head from a mile away, and he's gone for good.

Red Hulk
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The only way Joker would lose is in a confined space with no weapons, and even then it's not certain. erm

NonSensi-Klown
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Joker gets slaughtered by Frank. The only reason the Joker is so feared is because Batman, despite how many times he catches him, refuses to put him down for good. He's just had a lot of second chances because Bruce doesn't have the balls to do what he needs to. Frank would put a .50 round through the clown's head from a mile away, and he's gone for good.

THANK YOU!
Jesus, EFFING Christ thank god for the voice of reason.

Red Hulk
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
THANK YOU!
No problem.

TricksterPriest
Too bad he's wrong. Punisher does not know fear. After dealing with the Joker, he will. Joker will break him.

Joker is on par with Batman himself in terms of brains and prep.

Red Hulk
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Too bad he's wrong. Punisher does not know fear. After dealing with the Joker, he will. Joker will break him.

Joker is on par with Batman himself in terms of brains and prep. It's one fight, and Frank isn't going to have chit chat with him either. erm

TricksterPriest
the way the OP phrased it, it's not a 1v1. He's made Joker a punisher villain.

So rather than handing the fight to Frank on his terms, it's now on Joker's terms.

And only Sado is fanboyish enough to give Punisher a win against Joker in a metaphorical chess game.

fascistcrusader
You can't possibly be serious.

Unlike Bruce, Frank doesn't stroll up behind his opponent and have a friendly chat before a fist fight, sending them to jail only so they can break out and do it next week.

The Clown wouldn't even know what happened. One minute he'd be scheming alone and the next a man with a 12 gauge shotgun is pumping 5 rounds of 00 buck shot into his head and torso.

Red Hulk
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
the way the OP phrased it, it's not a 1v1. He's made Joker a punisher villain.

So rather than handing the fight to Frank on his terms, it's now on Joker's terms.

And only Sado is fanboyish enough to give Punisher a win against Joker in a metaphorical chess game.
http://i30.tinypic.com/5v6qv9.jpg

Mindset
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
the way the OP phrased it, it's not a 1v1. He's made Joker a punisher villain.

So rather than handing the fight to Frank on his terms, it's now on Joker's terms.

And only Sado is fanboyish enough to give Punisher a win against Joker in a metaphorical chess game. And you're serious, wow.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by strifex6
If The Joker was one of The Punisher's villains would he be defeated?

or would The Joker end up with his head blown off? batman could have aced him loooong ago but he can't, frank doesn't have gun/killing issues, do the math.

Juk3n
All Joker has to do is show his face ONE time, and it's lights out thats just how Punisher rolls.

1 vote for Frank

Phantom Zone
Another vote for frank and hes dealt with people more dangerous than the Joker.

Master Crimzon
For all the people who constantly say that the Joker is only considered a dangerous villain because Batman refuses to kill him, you might want to note that this goes both ways; the Joker doesn't want to kill Batman, either, and passed up several opportunities to do it. Therefore, it's not a one-sided deal; due to their odd, symbiotic sort of relationship, neither wants to kill the others. This is also why the Joker, obsessed with Batman, likes to play around with him attempting to drive him nuts; it was more than once that either luck or the Joker's unwillingness saved Batman.

In addition, the Joker has no special emotions towards the Punisher; he will not play around with him and toy him. The Joker is EXTREMELY intelligent, and I find it extremely unlikely that Frank can just sneak in somewhere and shoot him without the Joker finding out somehow; not saying that can't happen, because if the Punisher jumps him and snipes him, the Joker will die; but that's equivalent to a one-sided prep match, which this is not.

However, if this is a prep fight (two-sided), the Joker can take this. He's smarter than Frank, and is more than likely to be able to get him inside a trap and proceed to own him using Joker Venom, a gun, or some other form of elaborate weapon.

An arena match? Well, if both have their regular weapons- the Joker with his guns, knives, and gadgets, and Frank with his guns and other skills, I suppose Frank can take it a long range; he's a better shot than the Joker and also has the advantage of body armor. The Joker, however, has incredible pain tolerance; in his proper form, he can laugh and shrug off basic pain. If they close in, though, Frank's life just gets a whole lot more miserable. Not saying that the Joker is necessarily going to take this, but Frank- while a skilled hand-to-hand combatant- isn't as good as Batman in that department. The Joker had, on several occasions, used bursts of strength in combat (his insanity grants him occasional somewhat superhuman strength while in combat), and Batman has- more than once- commented on the Joker's speed, and he is clearly depicted to be agile. His weaponry is very effective- joy buzzer, for example, can be lethal in close-ranged combat, and his acid-squirting flower can damage Frank. Joker Venom can also come into effect.

Conclusion? Both are very skilled. Frank can take a one-sided prep match, like FascistCrusader says by simply sniping the Joker, the Joker can take a two-sided prep fight, and an arena fight is more interesting to analyze.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Master Crimzon

In addition, the Joker has no special emotions towards the Punisher; he will not play around with him and toy him. The Joker is EXTREMELY intelligent, and I find it extremely unlikely that Frank can just sneak in somewhere and shoot him without the Joker finding out somehow; not saying that can't happen, because if the Punisher jumps him and snipes him, the Joker will die; but that's equivalent to a one-sided prep match, which this is not.

The Joker though does like to mess with people in genera regardless of wether its Batman. If he knows pun is trying to kill him and he could mess with his head im not sure if he will pass up the opportunity.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

However, if this is a prep fight (two-sided), the Joker can take this. He's smarter than Frank, and is more than likely to be able to get him inside a trap and proceed to own him using Joker Venom, a gun, or some other form of elaborate weapon.


In a crossover Pun esacped all of Jokers traps. Pun has also been ale to detect traps just from experience, hell theres even an eaxmple of Frank detecting the same type trap which Batman failed to see in The Killing Joke.

Joker maybe be 'smarter' than Frank but that doesn't neccesarily means hes going to win. Frank has survived assasination attempts from smarter people.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The Joker though does like to mess with people in genera regardless of wether its Batman. If he knows pun is trying to kill him and he could mess with his head im not sure if he will pass up the opportunity.

And the Joker is known to mess with people's heads when they aren't familiar to him when? If he knew something about the Punisher, he would've taunted him about something; he doesn't, though, because if he does, it just automatically gives him more motive to just shoot Punisher in the back of the head, because he should know Frank wants to kill him. The Joker isn't stupid, and while he may be unafraid of death, he certainly doesn't want to die.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
In a crossover Pun esacped all of Jokers traps. Pun has also been ale to detect traps just from experience, hell theres even an eaxmple of Frank detecting the same type trap which Batman failed to see in The Killing Joke.

Joker maybe be 'smarter' than Frank but that doesn't neccesarily means hes going to win. Frank has survived assasination attempts from smarter people.

Hey, I heard the Joker owned Carnage with a crowbar in a crossover (I didn't read it, but that's what I heard). Is THAT canon?

... exactly. Crossovers =/= canon.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And the Joker is known to mess with people's heads when they aren't familiar to him when?

Well he seemed to get a kick out of tormenting the mayor when he kidnapped him. In Arkham asylum he decided to play a game with an inmate instead of killing him. Its not exactly out of character for him to play games with Franks mind if he could get away with it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

If he knew something about the Punisher, he would've taunted him about something; he doesn't, though, because if he does, it just automatically gives him more motive to just shoot Punisher in the back of the head, because he should know Frank wants to kill him. The Joker isn't stupid, and while he may be unafraid of death, he certainly doesn't want to die.

He gets basic knowledge of Frank. Hes not going to shoot Frank in the back of the head Frank has deteced sniper fire many times and his awarness on one ocassion was good that he was just able to detect that asniper was there with no physical signs giving him away.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon


Hey, I heard the Joker owned Carnage with a crowbar in a crossover (I didn't read it, but that's what I heard). Is THAT canon?

... exactly. Crossovers =/= canon.

Im aware that its not canon but if the characters are wriiten reasonably consistent to the way they are in the mainstream its not wrong to use it.

Punisher detected a trap that Batman has failed to see and he was able to detect traps by a guy who was so good he was able to get past Kingpins security. Jokers traps are not soo compliacted that he can't get out of them, so the crossover was not written inconsistently.

Faux Smurph
Thank you Master Crimzon... I pretty much cosign what you said.

Joker has killed as many if not more than Punisher, and has done it without a care. When it comes down to people like Jim Gordon, Batman, etc., he keeps them alive because he needs them to exist.

Punisher? Joker doesn't give a damn.

Anyways, Joker wins.

Faux Smurph
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well he seemed to get a kick out of tormenting the mayor when he kidnapped him. In Arkham asylum he decided to play a game with an inmate instead of killing him. Its not exactly out of character for him to play games with Franks mind if he could get away with it. In Arkham Asylum: Living Hell, he went around killing everyone whose name was a palindrome without playing mind games with them.

The mayor? He's important. Batman, Gordon are important. The inmate is harmless because he's trapped too.

Punisher is just some guy in a costume.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He gets basic knowledge of Frank. Hes not going to shoot Frank in the back of the head Frank has deteced sniper fire many times and his awarness on one ocassion was good that he was just able to detect that asniper was there with no physical signs giving him away. Who says it'll be a sniper? He could be gassed with Joker venom. He could be shot. Joker could just blow up the city block that Frank is in.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im aware that its not canon but if the characters are wriiten reasonably consistent to the way they are in the mainstream its not wrong to use it.

Punisher detected a trap that Batman has failed to see and he was able to detect traps by a guy who was so good he was able to get past Kingpins security. Jokers traps are not soo compliacted that he can't get out of them, so the crossover was not written inconsistently. If Punisher detected a trap that Batman couldn't, the characters were not written reasonably consistent.

Fail.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well he seemed to get a kick out of tormenting the mayor when he kidnapped him. In Arkham asylum he decided to play a game with an inmate instead of killing him. Its not exactly out of character for him to play games with Franks mind if he could get away with it.

The Joker isn't about to play games with someone who is a homicidal nutcase and wants to kill him- what will he taunt him about, anyway? He doesn't know anything about Frank's life.

And even if he could, the Joker's traps are still there, and the Joker will want to kill the Punisher. A gunshot to the head while Punisher is being gassed by Joker Venom, maybe?



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He gets basic knowledge of Frank. Hes not going to shoot Frank in the back of the head Frank has deteced sniper fire many times and his awarness on one ocassion was good that he was just able to detect that asniper was there with no physical signs giving him away.

Correct, only that the Joker is not going to stand on top of a building and snipe Frank. That's what FRANK will do to the Joker if it's a one-sided prep fight; the Joker has already owned people intellectually superior to Frank with his traps. Why not hide somewhere, let Frank find him and nail him with a bomb of Joker gas?




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im aware that its not canon but if the characters are wriiten reasonably consistent to the way they are in the mainstream its not wrong to use it.

As far as I can remember, the Joker was begging for his life, while in direct continuity, the Joker was proven to not be afraid of anything.

INCONSISTENCY!

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher detected a trap that Batman has failed to see and he was able to detect traps by a guy who was so good he was able to get past Kingpins security. Jokers traps are not soo compliacted that he can't get out of them, so the crossover was not written inconsistently.

Yeah, see above.

Oh, and you do agree with me about the arena fight, right?

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Faux Smurph
In Arkham Asylum: Living Hell, he went around killing everyone whose name was a palindrome without playing mind games with them.


Thats not what he did in Grant Morrisons Arkham Asylum.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph

The mayor? He's important. Batman, Gordon are important. The inmate is harmless because he's trapped too.

Weren't those other inmate that he killed in Living Hell harmless as well, in other words they were harmless in the sense they didn'tknow he was going to kill them? He just did if for kicks.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph

Punisher is just some guy in a costume.

Yes and Joker in general likes to **** with people regardless like he did by making the people of Metroplis bald.

Hes also tried messing with Azreal I don't think Joker had met him before, can't by sure about the exact details because it was discussed via letters in the issue afterwards.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph

Who says it'll be a sniper? He could be gassed with Joker venom. He could be shot. Joker could just blow up the city block that Frank is in.


Of course you know that Frank could blow Joker up as well? You also know that Frank has made a gas mask from scratch? Even if Joker trys to use poision gas Frank can improvise.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph


If Punisher detected a trap that Batman couldn't, the characters were not written reasonably consistent.

Fail.

Im not talking about the crossover. Joker used a trap where there was a floor which had a trap door that revealed spikes underneath it in the Killing Joke. In two other Punisher issues Punisher detected that same trap without even walking over it.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The Joker isn't about to play games with someone who is a homicidal nutcase and wants to kill him- what will he taunt him about, anyway? He doesn't know anything about Frank's life.

He gets basic knowledge I think people in the Mu know that his family were murdered

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

And even if he could, the Joker's traps are still there, and the Joker will want to kill the Punisher. A gunshot to the head while Punisher is being gassed by Joker Venom, maybe?

Er no, hes deteced traps before and hes improvied a gas mask from nothing.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon


Correct, only that the Joker is not going to stand on top of a building and snipe Frank.

Joker has sniped people before so he might try it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

That's what FRANK will do to the Joker if it's a one-sided prep fight; the Joker has already owned people intellectually superior to Frank with his traps. Why not hide somewhere, let Frank find him and nail him with a bomb of Joker gas?

Frank has beaten assasination attempts from people smarter than Joker. High Evolutinary and Dr Doom.




Originally posted by Master Crimzon



As far as I can remember, the Joker was begging for his life, while in direct continuity, the Joker was proven to not be afraid of anything.

INCONSISTENCY!

I agree but punisher esacping Jokers traps are not inconsistent.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon


Yeah, see above.

I explained this to smurph

Im not talking about the crossover. Joker used a trap where there was a floor which had a trap door that revealed spikes underneath it in the Killing Joke. In two other Punisher issues Punisher detected that same trap without even walking over it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Oh, and you do agree with me about the arena fight, right?

Joker doesnt stand a chance in an arena fight.

Dr Hackenbush
Originally posted by Faux Smurph
In Arkham Asylum: Living Hell, he went around killing everyone whose name was a palindrome without playing mind games with them.

The mayor? He's important. Batman, Gordon are important. The inmate is harmless because he's trapped too.

Punisher is just some guy in a costume.

Who says it'll be a sniper? He could be gassed with Joker venom. He could be shot. Joker could just blow up the city block that Frank is in.


If Punisher detected a trap that Batman couldn't, the characters were not written reasonably consistent.

Fail.



http://i352.photobucket.com/albums/r355/copusequalswin/animal_cat-242.jpg

Faux Smurph
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats not what he did in Grant Morrisons Arkham Asylum. I know that. These are two different books. It's a little shocking, that you'd have to read more than one Joker-related story to know what I'm talking about, so I'll try to slow down.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Weren't those other inmate that he killed in Living Hell harmless as well, in other words they were harmless in the sense they didn'tknow he was going to kill them? He just did if for kicks.Who is Joker more likely to play with?

A certified psycho path who can do nothing about it due to the locale so must suffer?

Or ordinary people on the street?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes and Joker in general likes to **** with people regardless like he did by making the people of Metroplis bald. But he didn't play mind games with them, and they weren't all trying to hunt him down.

Joker didn't kill these people... and therefore he won't kill Punisher? lolz? Do you really need a list of every time he's randomly killed a person?


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Of course you know that Frank could blow Joker up as well? You also know that Frank has made a gas mask from scratch? Even if Joker trys to use poision gas Frank can improvise. Punisher's going to blow up a bunch of innocents, eh?

I lol'd


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im not talking about the crossover. Joker used a trap where there was a floor which had a trap door that revealed spikes underneath it in the Killing Joke. In two other Punisher issues Punisher detected that same trap without even walking over it. My god, you're moronic.

If you don't see something green, but then I see something green, my senses are better than yours?

You have no idea if there was a difference in the traps, whether one sagged in or shook at the trap point, how fast one was walking, or hell, what mindset he was in immediately prior to the trap.

"But... this one had spikes... and so did that one!".

Faux Smurph
Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
http://i352.photobucket.com/albums/r355/copusequalswin/animal_cat-242.jpg <3

Dr Hackenbush
Originally posted by Faux Smurph
<3

you're like the best house mom. Keep the house nice and tidy, and still able to show affection embarrasment

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He gets basic knowledge I think people in the Mu know that his family were murdered

Alright. So the Joker can use his uber mind-f*cking powers to mess with Frank's head and THEN kill him, right? Considering that the Joker has pissed off even Batman in the past, I'm sure he could do the same to Castle; you can't think clearly while you're being mind-raped.

There's no proof the Joker would do that if he's in immediate danger, too. To my knowledge, he's never messed with someone who is going to kill him.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er no, hes deteced traps before and hes improvied a gas mask from nothing.

1. Joker's traps =/= other people's traps, even if they look the same.

2. I believe Joker Venom gets through the skin as well. Too bad for Frankie.





Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Joker has sniped people before so he might try it.

Why should he do it here?



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Frank has beaten assasination attempts from people smarter than Joker. High Evolutinary and Dr Doom.

Dr. Doom is more scientifically intelligent than the Joker; however, the Joker who tricked an omnipotent being into giving him supreme power over the universe (Emperor Joker), successfully caused chaos and actually Joker-ized people like Doomsday, foiled an assassination (ASSASSINATION, as in killing) attempt by Deathstroke and only let him live because the plot gods demanded so, and... need I go on?

The Joker's way of thinking is more out-of-the-box and unpredictable than anyone Punisher's ever fought.






Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I agree but punisher esacping Jokers traps are not inconsistent.

Traps that fooled Batman, the 'world's greatest detective', who, by feats, is a lot smarter than Castle? Nope.

By the way, if you would like to use The Killing Joke as evidence, you may want to note that in the final fight, not only did the Joker get a solid hit on Batman (who is a far better H2H combatant than the Punisher), he successfully drew a gun on him. Luck- the gun being of the 'silly' variety- saved Batman from a gunshot wound. A nasty gunshot wound.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I explained this to smurph

Sure.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im not talking about the crossover. Joker used a trap where there was a floor which had a trap door that revealed spikes underneath it in the Killing Joke. In two other Punisher issues Punisher detected that same trap without even walking over it.

Who made the trap? Even if the trap looks the same, it's not necessarily the same one.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Joker doesnt stand a chance in an arena fight.

Alright. Now, look at my argument, read, and elaborate on your opinion. In close-ranged, the Joker certainly has a shot.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Faux Smurph
I know that. These are two different books. It's a little shocking, that you'd have to read more than one Joker-related story to know what I'm talking about, so I'll try to slow down.

Who is Joker more likely to play with?

A certified psycho path who can do nothing about it due to the locale so must suffer?

Or ordinary people on the street?

But he didn't play mind games with them, and they weren't all trying to hunt him down.

Joker didn't kill these people... and therefore he won't kill Punisher? lolz? Do you really need a list of every time he's randomly killed a person?


Punisher's going to blow up a bunch of innocents, eh?

I lol'd


My god, you're moronic.

If you don't see something green, but then I see something green, my senses are better than yours?

You have no idea if there was a difference in the traps, whether one sagged in or shook at the trap point, how fast one was walking, or hell, what mindset he was in immediately prior to the trap.

"But... this one had spikes... and so did that one!".

Anyway Dr Doom has tried to kill him twice and High Evoultinary has tried to kill him. Therefore this does not mean that Joker is going to kill him. I see the flaming and insults have begun as predicted so im going to ignore you. If you cant be civil then just get lost.

Faux Smurph
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway Dr Doom has tried to kill him twice and High Evoultinary has tried to kill him. Therefore this does not mean that Joker is going to kill him. I see the flaming and insults have begun as predicted so im going to ignore you. If you cant be civil then just get lost. Which is all fine and dandy. He survives other assassination attempts due to a need for the story to go on and because it's a much more predictabble method. Both enemies you mentioned are scientists, mathematical, and precise about their ways.

Joker is none of the above.

Joker's gotten through to Lex Luthor as president before.

Twice, to my knowledge.

Punisher is nothing compared to that.

Dr Hackenbush
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway Dr Doom has tried to kill him twice and High Evoultinary has tried to kill him. Therefore this does not mean that Joker is going to kill him. I see the flaming and insults have begun as predicted so im going to ignore you. If you cant be civil then just get lost.


First off, that's not why you're going to "ignore him". It's because he pretty much has you beat in pretty much every sense of the word. Smurph insults people. It's what most good kmc debaters do. You really can't counter his post at this point, it's why you're post is so dramatically shorter. And yes, he's being civil, his post isn't flaming you like mine is. I'm NOT being civil no expression

occultdestroyer
Another Joker vs. Punisher thread, eh?

I agree with what Master Crimzon said.
With prep or close combat, Joker takes this.
Without prep or long-range combat, Punisher wins.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Another Joker vs. Punisher thread, eh?

I agree with what Master Crimzon said.
With prep or close combat, Joker takes this.
Without prep or long-range combat, Punisher wins.

Ah, thank you.

Dr Hackenbush
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Another Joker vs. Punisher thread, eh?

I agree with what Master Crimzon said.
With prep or close combat, Joker takes this.
Without prep or long-range combat, Punisher wins.
1.) Nice title, it made me lol

2.) wasn't there a 5 page thread like 2 weeks ago ermm


Search history is under rated...

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Alright. So the Joker can use his uber mind-f*cking powers to mess with Frank's head and THEN kill him, right? Considering that the Joker has pissed off even Batman in the past, I'm sure he could do the same to Castle; you can't think clearly while you're being mind-raped.


People have tried messing with his mind in the past all it did was make him more focused.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

There's no proof the Joker would do that if he's in immediate danger, too. To my knowledge, he's never messed with someone who is going to kill him.

Maybe not, doesn't matter since hes outsmarted people smarter than Joker.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon


1. Joker's traps =/= other people's traps, even if they look the same.


Thats just complete and utter bias. The trap was just a spikes covered by a floor board. Theres nothing complicated about that so no hes traps are not always better than others.

Also Jokers traps are not better than Dr Dooms.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon


2. I believe Joker Venom gets through the skin as well. Too bad for Frankie.

Proof?


Originally posted by Master Crimzon


Why should he do it here?

Hey you said Joker might shoot Pun not me.




Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Dr. Doom is more scientifically intelligent than the Joker; however, the Joker who tricked an omnipotent being into giving him supreme power over the universe (Emperor Joker),

First you need to prove how intelligent Mxy is. Mxy doesn't come across as being that intelligent just ominpotent. Ominpotenet does not mean you are super intelligent. What Dr Doom did was more impressive he actually defeated an omnipotent that was activly trying to beat him, instead of a being that actually made himself vulnerable.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon

successfully caused chaos and actually Joker-ized people like Doomsday, foiled an assassination (ASSASSINATION, as in killing) attempt by Deathstroke and only let him live because the plot gods demanded so, and... need I go on?

and that proves that Joker is smarter than Doom how? Doom has been a universal threat at least twice. His achievements outweigh Jokers.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

The Joker's way of thinking is more out-of-the-box and unpredictable than anyone Punisher's ever fought.

No they are not, you are exaggerating. Hidding spikes under a floorboard is not unpredictable. Gassing people with poison gas is not unpredicatble. Traps that fire guns are not unpredictable. Beating a loved one to death is not unpredicatble. Hell Punisher has gone up against people more twisted than Joker.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon


Traps that fooled Batman, the 'world's greatest detective', who, by feats, is a lot smarter than Castle? Nope.

Joker has fooled Batman with traps before, so I don't see how is that inconsistent. Batman knows more than Punisher does but I don't think he is neccesarily 'smarter'.

Punisher has shown to better at prep than Captain America and I don't even think Batman is smarter than Cap he just knows more stuff.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon

By the way, if you would like to use The Killing Joke as evidence, you may want to note that in the final fight, not only did the Joker get a solid hit on Batman (who is a far better H2H combatant than the Punisher), he successfully drew a gun on him. Luck- the gun being of the 'silly' variety- saved Batman from a gunshot wound. A nasty gunshot wound.


Pun has gone up against people tougher than Batman Joker isn't killing him.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Who made the trap? Even if the trap looks the same, it's not necessarily the same one.

The trap was made by a guy who got past KP's security. Of course the trap was not exactly the same but since they were similar we could argue that Punisher would have detected Jokers trap. Jokers trap was not that much different, the main difference is that this guys trap was outside.

Hell if you read the comic Pun simply knew the trap was there almost like a sixth sense he said something along the lines that everything seemed too 'safe'. The fact it was outside was neither here nor there.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Alright. Now, look at my argument, read, and elaborate on your opinion. In close-ranged, the Joker certainly has a shot.

Yeah 1/10 I guess.

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
First off, that's not why you're going to "ignore him".

Yes it is actually thats why im going to respond to the other guys post and not his. The other guy strongly disagrees with me but we can at least keep it civil.

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush

It's because he pretty much has you beat in pretty much every sense of the word. Smurph insults people. It's what most good kmc debaters do. You really can't counter his post at this point, it's why you're post is so dramatically shorter. And yes, he's being civil, his post isn't flaming you like mine is. I'm NOT being civil no expression

No he doesn't I could respond to his posts but ive been in other arguments where he contradicts himself and insults. Im not saying im perfect but he thinks he is. Im not going to debate and waste my time with some guy who is incapable of just looking at arguments from his point of view.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Faux Smurph
Which is all fine and dandy. He survives other assassination attempts due to a need for the story to go on and because it's a much more predictabble method.

Sounds like you're making excuses to me. I don't like it didn't happen.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph

Both enemies you mentioned are scientists, mathematical, and precise about their ways.

Joker is none of the above.

Joker's gotten through to Lex Luthor as president before.

Twice, to my knowledge.

Punisher is nothing compared to that.

Pun has broke in into Dooms Castle and escaped. Doom > Lex. Jokers not that unpredicatable you are exaggerating alot of his methods are not that different from other villiains.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
People have tried messing with his mind in the past all it did was make him more focused.

Who? Give me an example of a more proficient mind-f*cker than the Joker who couldn't succeed in messing with Frank's head.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Maybe not, doesn't matter since hes outsmarted people smarter than Joker.

Yeah? When they were personally out in a battle to the death? PROVE IT.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats just complete and utter bias. The trap was just a spikes covered by a floor board. Theres nothing complicated about that so no hes traps are not always better than others.

False; the trap can be more cleverly or differently conceived than anyone Punisher's ever faced. Now, what trap did HE avoid?


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Also Jokers traps are not better than Dr Dooms.

Prove it.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Proof?

For instance, in The Killing Joke, the Joker evidently dipped a needle with some Joker Venom and used it to kill the owner of the amusement park; evidently, even if is directly absorbed through the bloodstream, it can be lethal.

That means that even if the Punisher is grazed by any of the Joker's spikes, it can be potentially lethal.

Also, although I can't think of an example at the moment, I'm fairly sure it was absorbed through the pores sometimes.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hey you said Joker might shoot Pun not me.

I did; when Punisher is struggling with the Joker's traps, the Joker shoots him with a machine gun. Now, how is the Punisher gonna come out of that?






Originally posted by Phantom Zone
First you need to prove how intelligent Mxy is. Mxy doesn't come across as being that intelligent just ominpotent. Ominpotenet does not mean you are super intelligent. What Dr Doom did was more impressive he actually defeated an omnipotent that was activly trying to beat him, instead of a being that actually made himself vulnerable.

Well, either Mxy is EXTREMELY stupid or the Joker is EXTREMELY smart; well, mainly because it's not demonstrated percisely what the Joker says to Mxy, but evidently he needs to be smart in order to trick him in such a fashion.

Oh, and Dr. Doom is an extremely potent combatant- the Joker is also a highly effective killer, but he's a street-leveller. Doom isn't. Punisher IS.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and that proves that Joker is smarter than Doom how? Doom has been a universal threat at least twice. His achievements outweigh Jokers.

The Joker was a universal threat once, too, and also happened to devastate the world simply because he wanted to; his toxins are quite complex, displaying that not only is he a master planner and thinker, he also has excellent knowledge of chemistry (to my knowledge, no single person ever replicated that Venom).

How do Doom's 'street-level' feats- which he evidently used to get Punisher- compare to the Joker's? The Joker does everything with smarts and insanity, not with cosmic power.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No they are not, you are exaggerating. Hidding spikes under a floorboard is not unpredictable. Gassing people with poison gas is not unpredicatble. Traps that fire guns are not unpredictable. Beating a loved one to death is not unpredicatble. Hell Punisher has gone up against people more twisted than Joker.

Like who? I cannot think of a more violent and insane killer than the Joker in Marvel. Well, maybe except for Carnage, but Carnage doesn't compare to the Joker's intelligence.

He fooled Batman- the 'world's greatest detective', who is a far superior logician and detective than Frank- on multiple times, thanks to his apparent randomness and insanity (see The Man Who Laughs).






Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Joker has fooled Batman with traps before, so I don't see how is that inconsistent. Batman knows more than Punisher does but I don't think he is neccesarily 'smarter'.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Knowing more doesn't make you the world's greatest detective- Batman is a certified genius and combat expert (ninja training versus advanced army training), more so than Frank. By far.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher has shown to better at prep than Captain America and I don't even think Batman is smarter than Cap he just knows more stuff.

Really, now that's Marvel bias. You actually think that Batman is not smarter than Captain America? Really...?

No, Batman >>> Punisher in terms of intelligence.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Pun has gone up against people tougher than Batman Joker isn't killing him.

In direct combat? In a prep war?

I don't think so.





Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The trap was made by a guy who got past KP's security. Of course the trap was not exactly the same but since they were similar we could argue that Punisher would have detected Jokers trap. Jokers trap was not that much different, the main difference is that this guys trap was outside.

'inside' limits the distance and gives you more options to disguise the trap.

By the way, who designed KP's security system? Is it anyone on par with the Joker, in any shape or form?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hell if you read the comic Pun simply knew the trap was there almost like a sixth sense he said something along the lines that everything seemed too 'safe'. The fact it was outside was neither here nor there.

Alright. Now prove that the trap was as well-made as the Joker's, whose traps regularly fool Batman- a 'super-genius'- who is far superior to the Punisher in reasoning and intelligence.





Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah 1/10 I guess.

*cough*postanargument*cough*

BUSTER1
If its close quarters, with no weapns Punisher kills him-FACT!

Master Crimzon
Well, that's a possibility- if they fight, however, the Joker has the advantage of possessing speed at the very, very least on par with the Punisher's (speeds that shocked Batman, a peak-human level combatant), and his insanity- according to DC's Who's Who- grants him degrees of physical strength that are enhanced to somewhat superhuman degrees thanks to the adrenaline; with these things, he can actually compare with the Punisher on a physical level.

In addition, the Joker fights with an extreme level of unpredictability- enough to fool and bloody up Cassandra Cain, a superb martial artist- giving him that advantage over Frank.

He also happens to have the acid-squirting flower (very dangerous in close-quarters), his knives, and perhaps most importantly of all, the electrical joy buzzer- it can give Frank a lethal electrical shock. That, or he can use the 'needle dipped in liquid Joker Venom' strategy and put a smile on Frank's face.

Joker doesn't stand a chance in long-ranged combat, but really, if it's close-quarters, it's an entirely different matter.

BUSTER1
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, that's a possibility- if they fight, however, the Joker has the advantage of possessing speed at the very, very least on par with the Punisher's (speeds that shocked Batman, a peak-human level combatant), and his insanity- according to DC's Who's Who- grants him degrees of physical strength that are enhanced to somewhat superhuman degrees thanks to the adrenaline; with these things, he can actually compare with the Punisher on a physical level.

In addition, the Joker fights with an extreme level of unpredictability- enough to fool and bloody up Cassandra Cain, a superb martial artist- giving him that advantage over Frank.

He also happens to have the acid-squirting flower (very dangerous in close-quarters), his knives, and perhaps most importantly of all, the electrical joy buzzer- it can give Frank a lethal electrical shock. That, or he can use the 'needle dipped in liquid Joker Venom' strategy and put a smile on Frank's face.

Joker doesn't stand a chance in long-ranged combat, but really, if it's close-quarters, it's an entirely different matter.

I did say 'no weapons' and that includes acid spurting flowers and high voltage joy buzzers. H2H he would destroy Joker. Joker may have 'insane unpredictability' at his disposal but that is no match for what the Punisher brings to the table. Frank is in peak condition, highly skilled (though not on the same level as say Cap America or Batman)in martial arts-enough for him to take on gangs of men, unarmed, and kick the crap out of them, without sustaining injuries. He is also very durable for someone who isn't enhanced, and is utterly ruthless and driven

Sado22
how about taking out his family's remains and peeing all over them on national TV? call me up when joker doesn't something as bad as that.

despite how much i like him, joker's only "evil" from DC standards. and for the record, while Frank only lost it when the above happened and even then plundered his way through most of the gangs in NY but still fell for the traps cuz he wasn't himself. but its understandable. compare that to how Batman was about to kill joker was hurting Catwoman in Hush. from the looks of it, Frank has better resistance to mindf--king than Bats.


joker not unpredictable. i practically have to stop myself from screaming out whats he going to do next. pssst.....he'll escape, free thugs from Arkham and hide from batman in "top secret" areas which happen to be amusment parks with his face all over it.

~Sado

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by BUSTER1
I did say 'no weapons' and that includes acid spurting flowers and high voltage joy buzzers. H2H he would destroy Joker. Joker may have 'insane unpredictability' at his disposal but that is no match for what the Punisher brings to the table. Frank is in peak condition, highly skilled (though not on the same level as say Cap America or Batman)in martial arts-enough for him to take on gangs of men, unarmed, and kick the crap out of them, without sustaining injuries. He is also very durable for someone who isn't enhanced, and is utterly ruthless and driven

Well, that's tougher. However, Joker is regularly able to land a few hits on Batman (and, as I've noted, also stuns Batman with his speed) while they fight- in addition, on occasions, the Joker fully held his own against Batman and temporarily even gained the advantage. In pure, unarmed combat. The Joker is fast, strong, and agile, thanks to the adrenaline his insanity grants him, enabling him to stand up to seemingly superior fighters. Like Cassandra Cain, for once. Would you call her inferior or superior to Frank?

And the Joker is insanely durable, too.

Sado22
how about taking out his family's remains and peeing all over them on national TV? call me up when joker doesn't something as bad as that.

despite how much i like him, joker's only "evil" from DC standards. and for the record, while Frank only lost it when the above happened and even then plundered his way through most of the gangs in NY but still fell for the traps cuz he wasn't himself. but its understandable. compare that to how Batman was about to kill joker was hurting Catwoman in Hush. from the looks of it, Frank has better resistance to mindf--king than Bats.


joker not unpredictable. i practically have to stop myself from screaming out whats he going to do next. pssst.....he'll escape, free thugs from Arkham and hide from batman in "top secret" areas which happen to be amusment parks with his face all over it.


surprise is different from speed. i can distract bats with a flashbang or acid sprinke and punk him in the face if i had to. its not a speed feat.


you obviously haven't read up enough Punisher.


let me ask you a question:
would you call it superhuman if i take out a 100 man armed Vietnam soldiers single handedly with the butt of my rifle?
you would in the same way you described jokers "superhuman" strength. and while the most joker has done is run away from Batman, Frank in bloodlusted mode has take out 100 soldiers in vietnam with only the butt of his rifle. on top of that, he has taken hits from the likes of Tombstone and the Russian.
Joker doesn't stand a chance CQC.


true, joker is unpredictable and that can be used against Frank. but you're talking about a guy whose fought toe-to-toe with DareDevil and stalemated him in a full combat (the only time frank actually fought DD seriously) and humiliated him another time...heck, he even crippled bullseye. and let me stress that as far as reaction time goes, DareDevil clearly is above Batman.
yes, joker IS unpredictable. but so is frank. i'm tlaking about a guy who'se not above kicking sand in your eyes, biting off your cheek or eye, shooting people in the balls and steam rolling them, or punching his whole fist into the person's mouth and opening his hand. and lastly, unlike batman, Frank has always fought dirty. he's not only a good Martial artist but also improvisational brawler/street fighter................something Joker isn't.


true.


frank carries (in his own words) a Ka-bar army knife, a variety of throwing knives and a secondary knife at all times. and he's damn good with 'em too going so far as to beat people with guns to it and went can hang with Bullseye in a knife fights and H2h.


i doubt frank is gonna shake hands with him. the level to which punisher hates criminals, he'd probably open fire the moment joker offers his hand. Frank=real psycho


frank could use that actually laughing out loud


sorry, but i disagree. when its all said and done, Frank is full of surprises himself, is definitely more vicious, is more rage driven and hence more "superhuman" by your own definition and has more feats in H2h combat. also he has more durability, having survived toe-to-toe fights with the likes of Tombstone and The Russian.

Frank kills Joker 9/10.


QTF.

~Sado

Sado22
more often than not, heck, MOST of the time, all i ever see joker do when its all said and done is wet himself and run like a little sissy. the writers have almost always portrayed him as more of a sissy than a fighter.
as for Cassandra Cain, its not out of question that frank CAN beat her. its not something that's impossible, considering that we're talking about a guy who stalemated DareDevil, humiliated him another time and crippled Bullseye. all because of his improvisational fighting style and wild, furious rage. can't mess with that. on top of that, Frank's durability is insane. nuff said.


not even half as much as frank's. not by a longshot.
its correct that Joker MAY beat Frank, but the odds of that are just too small, especially since he's outdone in almost every thing from surprises, to damage soak, to skill, to competition level.

Frank>>Joker

~Sado

The Heap
Joker, me thinks.

Allankles
In a 1v1 situation Frank handles Joker. He completely smashes him.

If they both get prep it's 50/50. Joker is obviously more creative, but Frank (unlike Batman of course) is ruthless. He gets his chance and Joker is dead.

So overall I think Frank would be the more likely to come out on top. Frank's recurring villains tend to get severely maimed or screwed up big time, as psychotic as Joker is, the Punisher is just too remorseless for a guy like Joker to play off of him as successfully as he does Batman.

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Sado22
more often than not, heck, MOST of the time, all i ever see joker do when its all said and done is wet himself and run like a little sissy. the writers have almost always portrayed him as more of a sissy than a fighter.
as for Cassandra Cain, its not out of question that frank CAN beat her. its not something that's impossible, considering that we're talking about a guy who stalemated DareDevil, humiliated him another time and crippled Bullseye. all because of his improvisational fighting style and wild, furious rage. can't mess with that. on top of that, Frank's durability is insane. nuff said.


not even half as much as frank's. not by a longshot.
its correct that Joker MAY beat Frank, but the odds of that are just too small, especially since he's outdone in almost every thing from surprises, to damage soak, to skill, to competition level.

Frank>>Joker

~Sado

Bullshit. Frank would never beat Cassie in H2H. She'd read his moves and wipe the floor with him. She's deciphered an entire fighting style from a single move. She's also beaten Lady Shiva.

Outdone? Frank is the one who's outdone. Joker's madness has freaked out Spectre and driven gods insane. No one on Marvel earth, or hell, even marvel cosmics has that level of madness. Frank has never faced someone like Joker.


Hush? Really? erm Joker was written like shit in Hush. Loeb had no clue how to use him.

And didn't Cresh&I smoke you&Alf the last time this thread came up?

roll eyes (sarcastic) Get out, go read some comics, or better yet, stay away from comics vs. You won't be missed.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, that's tougher. However, Joker is regularly able to land a few hits on Batman (and, as I've noted, also stuns Batman with his speed) while they fight- in addition, on occasions, the Joker fully held his own against Batman and temporarily even gained the advantage. In pure, unarmed combat. The Joker is fast, strong, and agile, thanks to the adrenaline his insanity grants him, enabling him to stand up to seemingly superior fighters. Like Cassandra Cain, for once. Would you call her inferior or superior to Frank?

And the Joker is insanely durable, too.
Did Joker really bloodied Cassandra Cain?
Now that is insane!
Can you tell me what issue(s)? Gotta read 'em.

BTW Cassandra Cain is WAY superior than Frank in H2H combat.
Frank won't land a single blow. I don't think he'd even be able to touch Cass.

Red Hulk
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
And didn't Cresh&I smoke you&Alf the last time this thread came up?
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii30/leatweety1989/rotfl.jpg

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Did Joker really bloodied Cassandra Cain?
Now that is insane!
Can you tell me what issue(s)? Gotta read 'em.

BTW Cassandra Cain is WAY superior than Frank in H2H combat.
Frank won't land a single blow. I don't think he'd even be able to touch Cass.

While I agree that it's crazy, don't read too much into it. Cassie's move-reading ability actually screwed her over in that fight. Because Joker's moves are impossible to read. As Batman said: "His body language is gibberish." Now, that does give Joker an edge, but not so much that he'd take Frank H2H for a majority, IMO.

Bouboumaster
There's no prep assigned for no one in the first post. So, I give it to Frank.

TricksterPriest
The OP's post didn't specify, and the way it's phrased is unclear.

I'm holding to the interpretation of Joker becoming a Punisher villain, rather than a straight fight,

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Sado22
how about taking out his family's remains and peeing all over them on national TV? call me up when joker doesn't something as bad as that.

-Shoots Barbara Gordon in the spine and paralyzes her at a whim.
-Constantly slaughters his own henchmen and even other supervillains (Psimon in Salvation Run, for instance)
-Gassed a room full of people just to practice the effectiveness of his gas
-Shot Sarah Essen Gordon and proceeded to taunt her husband about it.
-Beat the sh*t out of Jason Todd with a crowbar and blew him up.
-Scared Gotham to hell multiple times
-Drove a cop insane in the No Man's Land arc, causing him to kill his own friends (disguised in makeup and green hair) and prooceed to be killed himself.
-Disfigured and tortured Alexander Luthor before killing said person.

Now then, that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the Joker.

... he's not known as the greatest comic book villain of all time for nothing.

Originally posted by Sado22
despite how much i like him, joker's only "evil" from DC standards. and for the record, while Frank only lost it when the above happened and even then plundered his way through most of the gangs in NY but still fell for the traps cuz he wasn't himself. but its understandable. compare that to how Batman was about to kill joker was hurting Catwoman in Hush. from the looks of it, Frank has better resistance to mindf--king than Bats.

And now then, who mind-f*cked Frank who is on par with the Joker?

The Joker is evil. Insanely evil. Apparently you've only read his more campy stories. If so, you should know that the Joker- in his proper form- is a sadistic psychopath. A pure, insane, murderous, demented, freak.


Originally posted by Sado22
joker not unpredictable. i practically have to stop myself from screaming out whats he going to do next. pssst.....he'll escape, free thugs from Arkham and hide from batman in "top secret" areas which happen to be amusment parks with his face all over it.

RIGHT. He was outright said to be unpredictable- his plans 'make sense to him alone', giving him an edge over other people who cannot understand his plans, confused Batman multiple times with his schemes, oh, and he didn't join the Society because the "Joker's too wild". Too wild and unpredictable. You can never know what he's going to do next.

Frank isn't smart enough to keep up with the Joker.

Edit: I'll provide an image of the Joker owning Cassie and move on to the rest of your points later.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
-Shoots Barbara Gordon in the spine and paralyzes her at a whim.
-Constantly slaughters his own henchmen and even other supervillains (Psimon in Salvation Run, for instance)
-Gassed a room full of people just to practice the effectiveness of his gas
-Shot Sarah Essen Gordon and proceeded to taunt her husband about it.
-Beat the sh*t out of Jason Todd with a crowbar and blew him up.
-Scared Gotham to hell multiple times
-Drove a cop insane in the No Man's Land arc, causing him to kill his own friends (disguised in makeup and green hair) and prooceed to be killed himself.
-Disfigured and tortured Alexander Luthor before killing said person.

I'll add some more big grin

-Jokerized all of Metropolis and Lex Luthor who was the Pres. of USA
-Martian Manhunter, top tier DC telepath, could not regain Joker's sanity
-Fooled Myx and was able to fully utilized his powers
-Joker literally laughed his head off at his own fears when Raven tried to mindrape him. fear

iceman24567
I think Joker > Frank in prep. Shoot me and call me stupid.

Red Hulk
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
And didn't Cresh&I smoke you&Alf the last time this thread came up?
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh170/di_ciccio/zur3sy.jpg

It's just as funny the second time!

Mindset
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Another Joker vs. Punisher thread, eh?

I agree with what Master Crimzon said.
With prep or close combat, Joker takes this.
Without prep or long-range combat, Punisher wins. How is Joker beating Frank in close combat?

Mindset
Originally posted by iceman24567
I think Joker > Frank in prep. Shoot me and call me stupid. If I agree can I still shoot you?

Sado22
the odds are against him, yes. but he has a chance is what i'm saying.


frank has no fighting style.


obviously cuz DC sucks and is full of sissies and losers. its a place where Batman is considered deep, complex and mysterious laughing out loud


rolling on floor laughing


funny thing is...the one time he did, he had joker wetting his pants, saw through everything he did and nearly killed him hadn't it been for Joker's gay pal (bats).


so now you decide which version of joker is canonical. its stuff like this got you embarrassed all the time in VG threads.


laughing out loud rolling on floor laughing
coming from the sissy who went emo and ran away from VG thread, came back to get emo again and left, and came one last time to cry when darkstorm left for good.
any plans of showing your face there and getting shitspanked again, trickster? laughing

~Sado

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Who? Give me an example of a more proficient mind-f*cker than the Joker who couldn't succeed in messing with Frank's head.



Colonel de sade, the guy sent him a snuff video were he killed young women on it. no expression in my opinion thats worse then what Joker did to Barbara. All it did was make Punisher focus....oh and that guy skinned a women alive in vietnam the guy is more sadistic than Joker. He only had two showings because Punisher killed him.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Yeah? When they were personally out in a battle to the death? PROVE IT.


He didn't fight them personally he defeated there plans. That doesnt matter anyway because were not talking about 1 on 1 fights but prep. You want me to prove that Doom is more inteligent than Joker? Doom has been a universal threat three times. How many times has Joker done that? Also Doom has conquered the earth at least once. The High Evolutinary used his intelligence to give himself god-like powers.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon

False; the trap can be more cleverly or differently conceived than anyone Punisher's ever faced. Now, what trap did HE avoid?

PLEASE! The trap in killing joke was spikes covered by a wooden trap door. The trap that Punsiher avoided was spikes covered by grass. Yes they are different but I gues because they are not 100 % the same theres no way in hell that Punisher would notice.

Like I said he didn't not recognise the trap because grass was standing up or anything, he just got a feeling.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Prove it.


You really don't know who Dr Doom is do you? Like I said hes achieved more than Joker has. I can't remember whats traps hes used but hes is more intelligent than JOker is. Doom is a time travel expert for crying out loud. His main enemy is Reed Richards (Mister Fantastic) who is more intelligent than Batman. If you don't know you had better ask somebody or go to the respect thread.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon


For instance, in The Killing Joke, the Joker evidently dipped a needle with some Joker Venom and used it to kill the owner of the amusement park; evidently, even if is directly absorbed through the bloodstream, it can be lethal.

That means that even if the Punisher is grazed by any of the Joker's spikes, it can be potentially lethal.

Also, although I can't think of an example at the moment, I'm fairly sure it was absorbed through the pores sometimes.


Is that what you mean? Of course if he does that it can be lethal.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon

I did; when Punisher is struggling with the Joker's traps, the Joker shoots him with a machine gun. Now, how is the Punisher gonna come out of that?

Oh please give me a break. Why are you assuming that Joker can get him in that poistion in the first place. You're just making up scenerios now.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Well, either Mxy is EXTREMELY stupid or the Joker is EXTREMELY smart; well, mainly because it's not demonstrated percisely what the Joker says to Mxy, but evidently he needs to be smart in order to trick him in such a fashion.

He doesn't have to be extremely stupid. Im not arguing that Joker isn't smart but you don't even know wether Mxy has genuis level intelligence, theres nothing to indicate in Mxys showings that he has above average intelligence.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Oh, and Dr. Doom is an extremely potent combatant- the Joker is also a highly effective killer, but he's a street-leveller. Doom isn't. Punisher IS.


Whats your point?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

The Joker was a universal threat once, too, and also happened to devastate the world simply because he wanted to; his toxins are quite complex, displaying that not only is he a master planner and thinker, he also has excellent knowledge of chemistry (to my knowledge, no single person ever replicated that Venom).

He was a universal threat once? Well i got three examples for Doom. I also thinks hes conquered the earth twice.

Doom >> Joker.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon


How do Doom's 'street-level' feats- which he evidently used to get Punisher- compare to the Joker's? The Joker does everything with smarts and insanity, not with cosmic power.


Doom doesn't have cosmic powers whats your point? HE (High Evolutinary) may have cosmic powers but he used his intelligence to create them, he also has more advanced tech than Joker can create etc etc.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Like who? I cannot think of a more violent and insane killer than the Joker in Marvel. Well, maybe except for Carnage, but Carnage doesn't compare to the Joker's intelligence.

Colonel de Sade has done stuff more twisted than Joker has.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

He fooled Batman- the 'world's greatest detective', who is a far superior logician and detective than Frank- on multiple times, thanks to his apparent randomness and insanity (see The Man Who Laughs).

Yeah he fooled him with a piece of wood...LOL. Anyway Doom has outmsarted Reed Richards before , who is more intelligent than Batman, so that don't neccesarily prove anything.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Ha. Ha. Ha. Knowing more doesn't make you the world's greatest detective- Batman is a certified genius and combat expert (ninja training versus advanced army training), more so than Frank. By far.

Doesn't matter anyway just because Joker has tricked Batman doesnt means hes tricking Frank as explained earlier.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Really, now that's Marvel bias. You actually think that Batman is not smarter than Captain America? Really...?

Thats not what I said is it? Cap is more intelligent than Frank is, however that didn't stop Cap from using his plan of attack instead of his own.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

No, Batman >>> Punisher in terms of intelligence.

Doesn't matter I already explained this.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

In direct combat? In a prep war?

I don't think so.

LOL what have I been talking about for the last couple of posts. Doom tried to kill him twice he failed. HE tried to kill him he failed. Thats all you need to know stop trying to nitpick and make excuses.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon


inside' limits the distance and gives you more options to disguise the trap.

Now you're just making stuff up. You're not an expert at making traps you don't know that but im sure you can convince yourself that its true.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon


By the way, who designed KP's security system? Is it anyone on par with the Joker, in any shape or form?


I don't bloody know but I know KP doesnt hire crap. The only reason why I brought up this point was to tell you that what the guy did was impressive. He may not be on par with the Joker but HE and Doom are better.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Alright. Now prove that the trap was as well-made as the Joker's, whose traps regularly fool Batman- a 'super-genius'- who is far superior to the Punisher in reasoning and intelligence.

Please GMAFB! The traps were very similar, stop nitpicking. Yes they were not exactly the same but there not exactly miles a part either.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon

*cough*postanargument*cough*

Ok Frank has blasted Cap twice from long range. Cap >>>>> joker in speed. The reason why Cass had a problem with Joker was because she could not read his body language not because he was fast.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
-Shoots Barbara Gordon in the spine and paralyzes her at a whim.
-Constantly slaughters his own henchmen and even other supervillains (Psimon in Salvation Run, for instance)
-Gassed a room full of people just to practice the effectiveness of his gas
-Shot Sarah Essen Gordon and proceeded to taunt her husband about it.
-Beat the sh*t out of Jason Todd with a crowbar and blew him up.
-Scared Gotham to hell multiple times
-Drove a cop insane in the No Man's Land arc, causing him to kill his own friends (disguised in makeup and green hair) and prooceed to be killed himself.
-Disfigured and tortured Alexander Luthor before killing said person.

Any of that stuff worse than skinning a women alive, or creating a video which shows young women getting murdered on it? Don't think so.

Originally posted by Sado22


joker not unpredictable. i practically have to stop myself from screaming out whats he going to do next. pssst.....he'll escape, free thugs from Arkham and hide from batman in "top secret" areas which happen to be amusment parks with his face all over it.

~Sado

LMFAO! F*king hillarious.

Sado22
laughing out loud
whats cracking PZ? long time no see? big grin

xmarksthespot
Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber agree that their mutual mancrush wins. Who'd have thunk it.

Spectre's powers A Savage Innocence, Myx's powers Emperor Joker, the Worlogog Rock of Ages. Essentially taken over the world. Joker's Last Laugh.

Because one clearly has to be classed as a universal or global threat to beat Punisher.

Joker wins in a prep scenario.
Punisher wins in a direct confrontation.
Cassandra Cain beats the living shit out of Punisher in a h2h confrontation.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Spectre's powers

Doesn't prove he beats him. That just how messed up his mind is.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot

A Savage Innocence, Myx's powers Emperor Joker,

Establish how smart Mxy is first, he doesn't come across as being of genuis intellect.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

the Worlogog Rock of Ages. Essentially taken over the world. Joker's Last Laugh.

Well thats great Dr Doom and HE have more impresive feats.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot


Because one clearly has to be classed as a universal or global threat to beat Punisher.

Try not misinterpret what people are saying. The point is simple. You can list out Jokers feats till you go red in the face. The fcat of the matter is that Punisher has survived attacks by people who are more dangerous and smarter than Joker therefore Joker does not neccesarily get the win. Not too difficult to understand.

Originally posted by Sado22
laughing out loud
whats cracking PZ? long time no see? big grin

Sup? Just building up my comic collection gonna have to give it a rest for awhile though. sad

Culebra
why are you guys even arguing? training/experience >>> sadism.

If anything The Punisher is just as crazy if not crazier than The Joker... He would see right through his home alone traps and gib him any way possible... even if that meant burning down half the city to do it. I think some of you Joker guys are underestimating Frank as he's already been through much worse than pretty much anything The Joker can throw at him and lived. I think some of you need to do a little more research on Frank before you go off saying that The Joker is smarter or crazier than he is...

Oh and by the way the people saying that Joker is smarter than Dr. Doom lol, that's some funny shiat

Edit: Oh and just to let you know The Joker is my favorite Villain right after Dr. Doom but i show no bias when i say that Joker isn't anywhere on Dr. Dooms level...
That is all

SuperiorTech
Originally posted by Culebra
why are you guys even arguing? training/experience >>> sadism.

If anything The Punisher is just as crazy if not crazier than The Joker ... He would see right through his home alone traps and gib him any way possible... even if that meant burning down half the city to do it. I think some of you Joker guys are underestimating Frank as he's already been through much worse than pretty much anything The Joker can throw at him and lived. I think some of you need to do a little more research on Frank before you go off saying that The Joker is smarter or crazier than he is...

Oh and by the way the people saying that Joker is smarter than Dr. Doom lol, that's some funny shiat

Edit: Oh and just to let you know The Joker is my favorite Villain right after Dr. Doom but i show no bias when i say that Joker isn't anywhere on Dr. Dooms level...
That is all



You really believe that...

xmarksthespot
Does Dr Doom with prep beat the Punisher?
Does High Evolutionary with prep beat the Punisher?
Does one have to be superior to Dr Doom and High Evolutionary with prep to beat the Punisher?
Does it really matter what someone who thinks Punisher > Doom, HE and Mr Fantastic with prep thinks?
Does your mancrush know no bounds?

The sequence goes yes, yes, no, no, yes.

Philosophía
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Does Dr Doom with prep beat the Punisher?
Does High Evolutionary with prep beat the Punisher?
Does one have to be superior to Dr Doom and High Evolutionary with prep to beat the Punisher?
Does it really matter what someone who thinks Punisher > Doom, HE and Mr Fantastic with prep thinks?
Does your mancrush know no bounds?

The sequence goes yes, yes, no, no, yes.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Does Dr Doom with prep beat the Punisher?
Does High Evolutionary with prep beat the Punisher?

Yes they do but the comics showed that Punisher can give them both trouble if they try to kill him. Doom would have caught him in the end but was impressed by how difficult it was to catch him.

Again the point is that both these guys are better than The Joker, if he can give guys that good that much trouble you can't assume that Joker will win. Again this is not a hard concept to grasp.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Does one have to be superior to Dr Doom and High Evolutionary with prep to beat the Punisher?

No you don't, but just because you are good as The Joker does not neccesarily mean you are going to beat Pun with prep either. So answering no to that question does not prove your point.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Does it really matter what someone who thinks Punisher > Doom, HE and Mr Fantastic with prep thinks?
Does your mancrush know no bounds?

The sequence goes yes, yes, no, no, yes.

Well its good that I don't think that then. Again stop misinterpreting what posters are saying. The answers to the question don't prove anything.

Culebra
Originally posted by SuperiorTech
You really believe that...


yes... Just because the Joker is sadistic doesn't necessarily mean he's crazier... The Punisher is pretty damn insane some would say even beyond the point of reason. At least the Joker may rationalize with someone just to play with his prey a little and to have things go his way in the end. The Punisher wouldn't do that, he's just to engulfed in fulfilling his missions that he'd tell whomever whatever they wanted to hear while he tortured them, then kill them on the spot, and if they didn't tell him what he's looking for them he'd kill them anyways and find his answers elsewhere. There's no rationalizing with a person like that, at least Joker would want to have some fun.

The Heap
Joker would just kill Frank on the spot with Joker Venom. Or blow up a city block while Franks in it getting some grub.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by The Heap
Joker would just kill Frank on the spot with Joker Venom. Or blow up a city block while Franks in it getting some grub.

Damn...good arguement. Well thats the end of that. sad

xmarksthespot
Does anyone think Punisher stands any chance against Doom with prep to the best of his abilities?
Does anyone think Punisher stands any chance against High Evolutionary with prep to the best of his abilities?
Does anyone think that low showings by either character means that a character needs to match or surpass Doom or HE prepwise/featwise at their best to be able to conclusively say a character beats Punisher?

The sequence goes only you and Tweedle Dumber, thrice.

The Heap
Which one is tweedle dumber?

starlock
Frank for the way to easy win

Master Crimzon
Before I move on with the thousands of posts already put in here (Damnit, this thread is ACTIVE), I'll deal with my of view on the Joker vs. Punisher in pure H2H; I don't think the Joker will take a majority, but he has a chance. He can compete physically thanks to crazy speed and strength, and also has the advantage of sadism and pure unpredictability well above Frank's own; he can certainly bloody the Punisher up. Beat him more than 5/10 times? Nope. But he can hold his own without being owned like a little girl. If Batman can't do it, Frank sure as hell can't do it either.

On another note, here is what I think will be the outcome:

One-sided prep for the Punisher: 8/10 Punisher Victory
Two-Sided Prep: 8/10 Joker Victory
Long-Ranged Arena Combat: 7/10 Punisher Victory
Close-Ranged Arena Combat: 6/10 Joker Victory

There ya go. And the Joker winning close-ranged is thanks to his lethal array of weapons as much as it is due to his H2H skills.

Originally posted by Sado22
surprise is different from speed. i can distract bats with a flashbang or acid sprinke and punk him in the face if i had to. its not a speed feat.

RIGHT. Now, to own it with two quotes coming from the same on-shot comic:

"Damn it. He's fast and I'm distracted."- Batman acknolwedging the Joker's speed right after the Joker releases himself from a direct deathgrip by Batman using no weapons.

However, perhaps more meaningful is this: "Keep forgetting how fast he is..."- These are Batman's thoughts as the Joker, without the element of surprise and after a conversation, charges him and hits him with a knee to the chin. Speed feat, proving that his speed- which is sufficient to hit Batman hard- is above Frank's own.


Originally posted by Sado22
you obviously haven't read up enough Punisher.

You obviously haven't read enough Joker.


Originally posted by Sado22
let me ask you a question:
would you call it superhuman if i take out a 100 man armed Vietnam soldiers single handedly with the butt of my rifle?
you would in the same way you described jokers "superhuman" strength. and while the most joker has done is run away from Batman, Frank in bloodlusted mode has take out 100 soldiers in vietnam with only the butt of his rifle. on top of that, he has taken hits from the likes of Tombstone and the Russian.
Joker doesn't stand a chance CQC.

Incorrect; the Joker had killed similar amounts of people all at once. Granted, it was with gas, prep, and guns, but it's still impressive.

Aside from that, the Joker's speed is on par with Batman's own, and his strength is enhanced to somewhat superhuman levels- Frank isn't known to be able to generate strength like that. He's no Batman.

Aside from that, when bloodlusted- such as in the great comic Mad Love- the Joker has attacked Batman and more than held his own. In fact, he almost got Batman there. Yeah, the Joker may run away from Batman when he has nothing to gain by owning him (the Joker likes to play with Batman, not kill him), but when bloodlusted, the Joker will be more than happy to engage Batman in physical combat.

Did I mention that he also defeated Catwoman in physical combat once?


Originally posted by Sado22
true, joker is unpredictable and that can be used against Frank. but you're talking about a guy whose fought toe-to-toe with DareDevil and stalemated him in a full combat (the only time frank actually fought DD seriously) and humiliated him another time...heck, he even crippled bullseye. and let me stress that as far as reaction time goes, DareDevil clearly is above Batman.

Yeah, Daredevil may have reflexes superior to Batman's, but Batman is better conditioned and a better martial artist- I, myself, will not be surprised if Batman will defeat Daredevil if they fight.


Originally posted by Sado22
Yes, joker IS unpredictable. but so is frank. i'm tlaking about a guy who'se not above kicking sand in your eyes, biting off your cheek or eye, shooting people in the balls and steam rolling them, or punching his whole fist into the person's mouth and opening his hand. and lastly, unlike batman, Frank has always fought dirty. he's not only a good Martial artist but also improvisational brawler/street fighter................something Joker isn't.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

Sorry, you just described the Joker with your analysis- crazy and resourceful, an an excellent brawler who will cheat if he has to. Want an example? In The Killing Joke, the Joker uses Batman's cowl against him and uses a wooden block nearby to hit Batman. Not cheating? Yeah, the Joker is a cheater and a resourceful fighter- he's also more intelligent and unpredictable than Frank.


Originally posted by Sado22
true.

You betcha.


Originally posted by Sado22
frank carries (in his own words) a Ka-bar army knife, a variety of throwing knives and a secondary knife at all times. and he's damn good with 'em too going so far as to beat people with guns to it and went can hang with Bullseye in a knife fights and H2h.

Well, the Joker also commonly uses knives while fighting; and his electrical joy buzzer gives him an immediate edge in H2H combat, considering that even a slight tap on one of Punisher's exposed areas will be lethal; the Joker, being at the very least as fast as Frank, can do it.



Originally posted by Sado22
i doubt frank is gonna shake hands with him. the level to which punisher hates criminals, he'd probably open fire the moment joker offers his hand. Frank=real psycho

The Joker = possibly the most sadistic and murderous supervillain in comic book history. Why? He doesn't do things for money or for power. He kills people for fun, as he says to Luthor (in another great Joker moment) while fighting him in Salvation Run.

And you don't have to shake hands with someone to nail 'em with the joy buzzer. Don't be stupid.



Originally posted by Sado22
frank could use that actually laughing out loud

If Joker was a pathetic weakling that is nothing compared to Frank. He ISN'T.


Originally posted by Sado22
sorry, but i disagree. when its all said and done, Frank is full of surprises himself, is definitely more vicious, is more rage driven and hence more "superhuman" by your own definition and has more feats in H2h combat. also he has more durability, having survived toe-to-toe fights with the likes of Tombstone and The Russian.

Right. And the Joker 'survived' toe-to-toe fights with Batman, who is superior to anyone Punisher ever physically fought and lived- bloodying up Cassandra Cain and defeating Catwoman in physical combat are some of Joker's feats. Yeah, who is more vicious? The insane, psychopathic killer clown who kills people randomly because it's fun, or the revenge-driven vigilante? The Joker is more ruthless, sadistic, and murderous. You must know him from Batman TAS or the 50's if you think that he isn't as vicious and deranged as Frank.

Originally posted by Sado22
Frank kills Joker 9/10.

If the Joker is sitting somewhere and Frank is a mile away, sniping him down while the Joker has no knowledge of Frank's existence.

That's hardly the case.

By the way, would you like me to post scans of some of the Joker's physical feats? I can, you know.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Colonel de sade, the guy sent him a snuff video were he killed young women on it. no expression in my opinion thats worse then what Joker did to Barbara. All it did was make Punisher focus....oh and that guy skinned a women alive in vietnam the guy is more sadistic than Joker. He only had two showings because Punisher killed him.

So, because of two showings, you think he's more sadistic than the Joker?

I'm sorry, but I can't help but cry out 'EPIC FAIL!'

The Joker- what he's done to Barbara- is personal. It's not random women being killed live. It's Gordon's daughter, who he undressed, took photos of, and showed it to her father, forced to watch his undressed, helpless daugher supposedly bleeding to death; all the while the Joker twists his head with oddly rational explanations for his insanity why rules are not necessarily. That's one of the most twisted things ever done in comics.

Did you see the photos of the people who killed in 'The Man Who Laughs'? Deformed, destroyed, and all because it was 'practice'. He also killed people live on television, in front of the entire friggin' world.




HOriginally posted by Phantom Zone
e didn't fight them personally he defeated there plans. That doesnt matter anyway because were not talking about 1 on 1 fights but prep. You want me to prove that Doom is more inteligent than Joker? Doom has been a universal threat three times. How many times has Joker done that? Also Doom has conquered the earth at least once. The High Evolutinary used his intelligence to give himself god-like powers.

The Joker doesn't have anything approaching Doom's resources or mystical knowledge; he also essentially conquered the world with almost nothing than a formula created from everyday materials, which he used to take over the minds of some of the world's most powerful metahumans, such as doomsday.

The Joker, with his limited resources, took over the world. Now THAT'S impressive.





Originally posted by Phantom Zone
PLEASE! The trap in killing joke was spikes covered by a wooden trap door. The trap that Punsiher avoided was spikes covered by grass. Yes they are different but I gues because they are not 100 % the same theres no way in hell that Punisher would notice.

1. Show me who designed KP's security. There are other small touches we could have missed.

2. The Joker's traps fooled someone superior to Frank; that much is clear. Besides, spikes aren't the Joker's only weapon; gas that can enter in ways other than the mouth, darts that can be dipped with a lethal toxin, etc, etc, etc.

Joker >>>> Frank in prep.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Like I said he didn't not recognise the trap because grass was standing up or anything, he just got a feeling.

And what makes you think he'll get the magical feeling again, when the Joker is logically smarter than the no-name who designed KP's security? Unless you can get me his name?

By the way, the Joker also foiled an assassination attempts by Deathstroke and very nearly killed him; Deathstroke is an assassin, one of the greatest and most intelligent ones in the DC universe.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You really don't know who Dr Doom is do you? Like I said hes achieved more than Joker has. I can't remember whats traps hes used but hes is more intelligent than JOker is. Doom is a time travel expert for crying out loud. His main enemy is Reed Richards (Mister Fantastic) who is more intelligent than Batman. If you don't know you had better ask somebody or go to the respect thread.

Scientific intelligence, and ingenuity/knowledge of traps/psychological mastery are very different. Reed Richards may be one of the world's greatest scientists- and Batman isn't- but Batman is also proficient in many intellectual aspects that Reed is not proficient with.

Also, the Joker is as smart as Batman, who is smarter than Frank. By far.






Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Is that what you mean? Of course if he does that it can be lethal.

Well, I'm pretty sure it can be absorbed through the skin, although I can't think of an example at the moment; still, his needles and spikes can be dipped with the liquid venom. If the Punisher even gets grazed by the spikes, he's f*cked.





Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Oh please give me a break. Why are you assuming that Joker can get him in that poistion in the first place. You're just making up scenerios now.

Why not? Batman is often fooled by the Joker's traps; if he can fool the 'world's greatest detective', he can fool a crazy vigilante with a gun. How about he ends up in the Joker's lair, gets gassed, somehow avoids it and proceeds to be gunned down? How will he avoid it?





Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He doesn't have to be extremely stupid. Im not arguing that Joker isn't smart but you don't even know wether Mxy has genuis level intelligence, theres nothing to indicate in Mxys showings that he has above average intelligence.

Well, it's still a highly impressive feat; I can't really figure out how the Joker tricked him. Can you? Obviously it was a smart move; even Mxy referred to him as smart while describing that event.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Whats your point?

That Doom defeating an omniscent being doesn't mean jackshit, because in terms of power, he's far stronger than the Joker, and any street-leveller, for that.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He was a universal threat once? Well i got three examples for Doom. I also thinks hes conquered the earth twice.

The Joker has done as much with far, far less.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Doom >> Joker.

Power? Yeah. Intelligence that is not scientific? Nope.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Doom doesn't have cosmic powers whats your point? HE (High Evolutinary) may have cosmic powers but he used his intelligence to create them, he also has more advanced tech than Joker can create etc etc.

Again; when do his actual planning, capturing, and trap feats rival the Joker's in any form?

Also, Joker Venom is incredible simple, and yet only the Joker was ever able to create it.





Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Colonel de Sade has done stuff more twisted than Joker has.

No, he hasn't.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah he fooled him with a piece of wood...LOL. Anyway Doom has outmsarted Reed Richards before , who is more intelligent than Batman, so that don't neccesarily prove anything.

In planning, detective, and psychological skills?

And he fooled Batman countless time.





Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Doesn't matter anyway just because Joker has tricked Batman doesnt means hes tricking Frank as explained earlier.

You're correct, if only for the matter that Batman is a greater detective, tracker, and logician than Frank can ever, ever hope to be. Frankie is going to be fooled quite badly.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats not what I said is it? Cap is more intelligent than Frank is, however that didn't stop Cap from using his plan of attack instead of his own.

Cap is more intelligent than Frank? Please, prove it.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Doesn't matter I already explained this.

Same.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL what have I been talking about for the last couple of posts. Doom tried to kill him twice he failed. HE tried to kill him he failed. Thats all you need to know stop trying to nitpick and make excuses.

Did Doom full-heartedly try to kill him, with absolutely all of his resources and his intelligence?

I can always pull your card and say that Doom failing to kill him doesn't matter, just like the Joker fooling Batman, to you, doesn't matter. Hypocrisy hypocrisy. Such an ugly thing.




Now you're just making stuff up. You're not an expert at making traps you don't know that but im sure you can convince yourself that its true.





Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I don't bloody know but I know KP doesnt hire crap. The only reason why I brought up this point was to tell you that what the guy did was impressive. He may not be on par with the Joker but HE and Doom are better.

No, they aren't; no in terms of short-term plans, ingenuity, and creativity. If the Joker had their resources, he would simply be incredible; he essentially conquered the world with far less than Doom.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Please GMAFB! The traps were very similar, stop nitpicking. Yes they were not exactly the same but there not exactly miles a part either.

Already addressed.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok Frank has blasted Cap twice from long range. Cap >>>>> joker in speed. The reason why Cass had a problem with Joker was because she could not read his body language not because he was fast.

Oh, PLEASE. Do you think Cap >>>>>> Batman in speed? Do you? Cap may be enhanced, but he's still only a highly enhanced human; Batman is absolute, absolute, absolute peak, as well, and the Joker displayed speed sufficient to knock Batman on his ass and surprise him with his attacks.

Cass? Do you really think that she only has her body-reading abilities? She's also a grandmaster martial artist; if she could've owned the Joker without that ability, she would have. She resorted to weird tricks in order to save her ass.

In close-ranged combat, the Joker CAN defeat The Punisher. I've already said that he will lose in a long-ranged, non-prep match.

Oh, and in Mad Love, a bloodlusted Joker hit Batman several times and pressed him back. I'd love to see the Punisher pulling that off.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Does anyone think Punisher stands any chance against Doom with prep to the best of his abilities?
Does anyone think Punisher stands any chance against High Evolutionary with prep to the best of his abilities?
Does anyone think that low showings by either character means that a character needs to match or surpass Doom or HE prepwise/featwise at their best to be able to conclusively say a character beats Punisher?

The sequence goes only you and Tweedle Dumber, thrice.

Doom having trouble killing the Punisher is not a low-showing. Frank has shown to be more resourceful than Captain America whos tricked Red Skull many a time and Doom gives RS props. Pun has also come close to killing Cap than most villains have thats without having to use strength dampeners and hypnosis.

The plan to kill Punisher were exactly the same as he used to try and kill other heroes. I guess all those were low showings as well. The plan is also not different from other plans he used in the past eg Knights of Wundagore.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon


That Doom defeating an omniscent being doesn't mean jackshit, because in terms of power, he's far stronger than the Joker, and any street-leveller, for that.

Please think about what you just said there. Im sorry but that was really really stupid. If you can't see the stupidity in that statement why should I bother replying to the rest?

Master Crimzon
Right. Now, I've never read that comic when he supposedly beat an omniscent being in actual combat- as you've led me to believe- and if he did do that, it's power, not intelligence.

That's how you put it. Or are there details I missed?

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Right. Now, I've never read that comic when he supposedly beat an omniscent being in actual combat- as you've led me to believe- and if he did do that, it's power, not intelligence.

That's how you put it. Or are there details I missed?


Er no... confused First of all the being was ominipotent not omniscent. Ok check this out....Doom is not ominpotent so if hes going to manages to defeat a being thats omnipotent whats he going to have to do? Thats right, he had to come up with a plan to deafeat him. If it was a matter of power or combat skill Thor or Magneto could have taken The Beyonders power they couldn't because they are not smart enough. I thought that was obvious.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, PLEASE. Do you think Cap >>>>>> Batman in speed? Do you? Cap may be enhanced, but he's still only a highly enhanced human; Batman is absolute, absolute, absolute peak, as well, and the Joker displayed speed sufficient to knock Batman on his ass and surprise him with his attacks.Cap is faster than Batman.

Phantom Zone
Uh oh Dumbys turned up, looks like there might be some ass kicking. big grin

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Uh oh Dumbo's turned up, looks like there might be some ass licking. yuupi
Fixed evil face

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Fixed evil face

That was actually quite funny. *punches occult* Basterd.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
That was actually quite funny. *punches occult* Basterd.
dance

Phantom Zone
Yeah yeah lap it up. lol

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap is faster than Batman.

Prove it.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Prove it.

Brubaker who has wriiten for both Batman and Cap thinks that Cap is on another level to Batman.

The writer for JLA/Avengers stated that Batman admitted that Cap would beat him in h2h. no expression

Sado22
agreed.


don't know if he's more unpredictable than frankie. its arguable.
as for sadism and ruthlessness...well, frank has the highest kill rate in Marvel. well above gods, metahumans and all those mutants, Frank STILL has the highest kill rate. in one day, he killed 20,000 people by dropping a nuke on them (notice that his kill rate is higher BARRING the nuke. with it, he'd just make everyone cry). did joker kill that many in one day? no. has he even dropped a nuke successfully? no.


agreed, for the sake of argument.




he said the same about Catwoman once. was this early in his career or later? nwayz, granted, joker has speed. but whether its more or less than what frank has dealt with his highly unlikely. beating Bullseye in h2h and crippling him tells us a lot. and we're talking about Bullseye who can surprise the hell out of people like DareDevil.


read all the major arcs of batman. he's never done something impressive. in fact, he's always disappointed me with his predictability.


gas, prep and guns<<<<<<<<<<<<<no gas, no prep and no gun. no hard feelings, but you failed badly there.


Can joker pick up and hold a full grown man by one hand over a building? no. can he toss around same full grown man? no. punch through doors and walls? no.
i've never seen joker do anything phsyically impressive.


alright, so bloodlusted joker has a chance. but only against regular frank.
'blood lusted frank' not only held his own but killed Barracuda, The Russian, killed 100 armed vietcong soldiers while suffering from several gunshots and phsyical and mental trauma. in fact, 'serious frank' stalemated DareDevil and held his own against Tombstone (and now pay attention) in a toe-to-toe fight. the amount of power tombstone packs was something even DareDevil was afraid of. Is joker sort-of-meta like Tombstone? no.
fact of the matter is, even if joker goes bloodlusted, he still wouldn't shitstomp frank....and frank goes bloodlusted himself, god save joker.


like what? once. doesn't count. especially since Joker can't hit harder than tombstone. neither can bats for that matter.


no, not really. so did he? and was it canon?
can catwoman beat DareDevil, Bullseye, Tombstone? no. can she even stand a chance in a straight up fight? barely. Can she beat them? no.
Frank did. more than once.
oh and can catwoman hold her own agianst Wolverine in a straight up fight? no.
heck, in their first encounter, Punisher had CAPTAIN AMERICA at his mercy.


probably. i'd say DD and Bats is 50/50.
but this is besides the point.


yes, i've read "the killing joke" just as i've read all the important arcs of "The Overly Stale Batman". not only was he runnign away scared but barely managed to do any damage to Bats. using his cowl against him, was resourceful, but nothing compared to Frank. Frank held his own against Wolverine in a straight up fight by using the envirnoment against him. he surprised DD and crippled him in a straight fight TWICE because of his resroucefulness and presence of mind and killed The Russian again because of his resourcefulness. heck, he used a hot pizza against The Russian and won laughing out loud
you seriously need to read up "Weclome back, Frank".

has joker ever bitten off a chunk of Batman's face? no.
has he bitten off someone's nose or ear? no.
punched someone so hard in the mouth it went down his throat and then opened his hand? no.
put someone in the mincemeat machine? no.
tossed someone off the empire state building? no.
planted C4's in a building and blew it up WHILE INSIDE? no.
hack someone to death with a crowbar? well, okay, so he's done that.
killed 20,000 people in one night? no.

THAT is unpredictable and sadistic.


Frank's outfit is the rubber variety. it won't work.


do you really have something to say besides quoting DC, who possibly make the most onedimensional, shallow characters in comicbook history?


arguable at best.
-DareDevil and Bats is 50/50 and he isn't more conditioned than Matt since Matt is also peak human.
-Bullseye and Bats would go to Bats but not in an easy fight, and he'd probably never pwn him the way Frank did.
-Tombstone- bats isn't beating him toe-to-toe for sure, since neither can DD.
-Wolverine- as much as i hate this short, hairy piece of shit, Batman would go down hard in a fight against him. Frank held his own against him for a whole length of an issue.

can Joker soak damage like Frank? no. hell no.


Frank was about to beat Black Widow hadn't it been for interruptions.


the insane, psycho clown whose kill number is no where close to Frank's. and frank doesn't do it for "revenge". it began as revenge but its pure hatred.


sure, go ahead.

~Sado

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Sado22
he's always disappointed me with his predictability.

In fact im pretty sure in the fan mail sent to Azreal people were complaining that Joker was becoming a boring character because he was becoming to predictable. Wish I could find that blasted issue.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Prove it. Dodges a bullet and throws his shield after it's been fired at point-blank range:

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/6130/caprules32cy5.th.jpg

Leaps and deflects bullets with his shield after they've been fired across a room:

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/2171/caprules38pq4.th.jpg

Throws his shield in mid leap and ricochets it and vaults across a room, catching up to it at the end of it's flight path:

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/7844/caprules39jb5.th.jpg

Throws his shield, which ricochets a few times and manages to shoulder flip Flag Smasher into it's flight path:

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2008/caprules40ii6.th.jpg

Kicks the crap outta some several thugs who have formed a semi-circle defensive formation while outrunning a gunman's sights:

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1031/caprules41tz7.th.jpg

Your turn. Prove Batman's faster than that.

godking
Originally posted by Sado22
agreed.


don't know if he's more unpredictable than frankie. its arguable.
as for sadism and ruthlessness...well, Frank STILL has the highest kill rate. in one day, he killed 20,000 people by dropping a nuke on them (notice that his kill rate is higher BARRING the nuke. with it, he'd just make everyone cry). did joker kill that many in one day? no. has he even dropped a nuke successfully? no.


agreed, for the sake of argument.




he said the same about Catwoman once. was this early in his career or later? nwayz, granted, joker has speed. but whether its more or less than what frank has dealt with his highly unlikely. beating Bullseye in h2h and crippling him tells us a lot. and we're talking about Bullseye who can surprise the hell out of people like DareDevil.


read all the major arcs of batman. he's never done something impressive. in fact, he's always disappointed me with his predictability.


gas, prep and guns<<<<<<<<<<<<<no gas, no prep and no gun. no hard feelings, but you failed badly there.


Can joker pick up and hold a full grown man by one hand over a building? no. can he toss around same full grown man? no. punch through doors and walls? no.
i've never seen joker do anything phsyically impressive.


alright, so bloodlusted joker has a chance. but only against regular frank.
'blood lusted frank' not only held his own but killed Barracuda, The Russian, killed 100 armed vietcong soldiers while suffering from several gunshots and phsyical and mental trauma. in fact, 'serious frank' stalemated DareDevil and held his own against Tombstone (and now pay attention) in a toe-to-toe fight. the amount of power tombstone packs was something even DareDevil was afraid of. Is joker sort-of-meta like Tombstone? no.
fact of the matter is, even if joker goes bloodlusted, he still wouldn't shitstomp frank....and frank goes bloodlusted himself, god save joker.


like what? once. doesn't count. especially since Joker can't hit harder than tombstone. neither can bats for that matter.


no, not really. so did he? and was it canon?
can catwoman beat DareDevil, Bullseye, Tombstone? no. can she even stand a chance in a straight up fight? barely. Can she beat them? no.
Frank did. more than once.
oh and can catwoman hold her own agianst Wolverine in a straight up fight? no.
heck, in their first encounter, Punisher had CAPTAIN AMERICA at his mercy.


probably. i'd say DD and Bats is 50/50.
but this is besides the point.


yes, i've read "the killing joke" just as i've read all the important arcs of "The Overly Stale Batman". not only was he runnign away scared but barely managed to do any damage to Bats. using his cowl against him, was resourceful, but nothing compared to Frank. Frank held his own against Wolverine in a straight up fight by using the envirnoment against him. he surprised DD and crippled him in a straight fight TWICE because of his resroucefulness and presence of mind and killed The Russian again because of his resourcefulness. heck, he used a hot pizza against The Russian and won laughing out loud
you seriously need to read up "Weclome back, Frank".

has joker ever bitten off a chunk of Batman's face? no.
has he bitten off someone's nose or ear? no.
punched someone so hard in the mouth it went down his throat and then opened his hand? no.
put someone in the mincemeat machine? no.
tossed someone off the empire state building? no.
planted C4's in a building and blew it up WHILE INSIDE? no.
hack someone to death with a crowbar? well, okay, so he's done that.
killed 20,000 people in one night? no.

THAT is unpredictable and sadistic.


Frank's outfit is the rubber variety. it won't work.


do you really have something to say besides quoting DC, who possibly make the most onedimensional, shallow characters in comicbook history?


arguable at best.
-DareDevil and Bats is 50/50 and he isn't more conditioned than Matt since Matt is also peak human.
-Bullseye and Bats would go to Bats but not in an easy fight, and he'd probably never pwn him the way Frank did.
-Tombstone- bats isn't beating him toe-to-toe for sure, since neither can DD.
-Wolverine- as much as i hate this short, hairy piece of shit, Batman would go down hard in a fight against him. Frank held his own against him for a whole length of an issue.

can Joker soak damage like Frank? no. hell no.


Frank was about to beat Black Widow hadn't it been for interruptions.


the insane, psycho clown whose kill number is no where close to Frank's. and frank doesn't do it for "revenge". it began as revenge but its pure hatred.


sure, go ahead.

~Sado Frank does not have the highest killrate in Marvel not even close. he does not even have the highest killrate of Marvel earth.

TricksterPriest
There's few if any, who are higher than Joker in terms of kill-count in DC. It takes high end power to overtake Joker on that score.

Extant, Imperiex, Anti-Monitor, Spectre, and I think that's it. Those are the only beings I'm comfortable saying are above Joker in kill-count.

Mindset
What's a ballpark figure of his kill count?

Not that that really matters...

TricksterPriest
Average universe population? Multiply that about 4-5x. Because he killed and rezzed the universe a few times in Emperor Joker. Not to mention killing tons of people during Last Laugh, when he had Spectre's powers, Worlogog,

it's almost uncalculable.

Mindset
How many people did he kill that actually stayed dead?

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Dodges a bullet and throws his shield after it's been fired at point-blank range:

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/6130/caprules32cy5.th.jpg

Leaps and deflects bullets with his shield after they've been fired across a room:

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/2171/caprules38pq4.th.jpg

Throws his shield in mid leap and ricochets it and vaults across a room, catching up to it at the end of it's flight path:

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/7844/caprules39jb5.th.jpg

Throws his shield, which ricochets a few times and manages to shoulder flip Flag Smasher into it's flight path:

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2008/caprules40ii6.th.jpg

Kicks the crap outta some several thugs who have formed a semi-circle defensive formation while outrunning a gunman's sights:

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1031/caprules41tz7.th.jpg

Your turn. Prove Batman's faster than that.

Very well, then.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/7431/batman419pg14pi6.jpg

-Dodges 13 out of 14 bullets shot at him while in point blank range, while hanging onto a rope and in an uncomfortable position to dodge bullets.

http://img142.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-15804/loc135/44776_batfreezeblast.jpg

-Dodges three of Mr. Freeze's quick-moving projectiles while at absolute point-blank range, using advanced acorbatics and speed.

http://img16.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-6930/loc24/6d0_batagile16.jpg

-Dodges all of the bullets fired by a submachine gun and proceeds to blitz the gunman and defeat him with a single strike.

http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://members.tripod.com/agent0x7/dkmoves2.html

-Dodges the Reaper's bullets at an extremely close range, and then owning him with a kick to the face.

http://img12.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-30534/loc24/b3e_batspeed4.jpg

Rushes into a crowd of armed gunmen who have him cornered and surrounded, only to beat them all without apparent difficulty.

Batman certainly isn't faster, but I would say that they are on par.

Mindset
The first scan he couldn't even hit Batman while he wasn't moving.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Sado22
agreed.

Good.


Originally posted by Sado22
don't know if he's more unpredictable than frankie. its arguable.
as for sadism and ruthlessness...well, frank has the highest kill rate in Marvel. well above gods, metahumans and all those mutants, Frank STILL has the highest kill rate. in one day, he killed 20,000 people by dropping a nuke on them (notice that his kill rate is higher BARRING the nuke. with it, he'd just make everyone cry). did joker kill that many in one day? no. has he even dropped a nuke successfully? no.

Same with the Joker- destroyed the universe multiple times, killed a massive portion of the world's population in the 'Last Laugh' storyline- that's beyond a 'nuke'- and also killed thousands of innocent people personally, just for the fun of it- even Frank has a 'logical' reason. The Joker massacres people because it's fun.

Who is more twisted and evil? And who can fool the world's greatest detective?


Originally posted by Sado22
agreed, for the sake of argument.

Goody.




Originally posted by Sado22
he said the same about Catwoman once. was this early in his career or later? nwayz, granted, joker has speed. but whether its more or less than what frank has dealt with his highly unlikely. beating Bullseye in h2h and crippling him tells us a lot. and we're talking about Bullseye who can surprise the hell out of people like DareDevil.

And Bullseye is on par with Batman on speed how? I just posted some of Batman's feats- anyone who can be temporarily as fast, or even faster than that and is still a human is definetly above the Punisher in terms of speed.

Oh, and Catwoman is also known for her speed and agility, and the last time I checked, the Joker beat her when they fought in physical combat.


Originally posted by Sado22
read all the major arcs of batman. he's never done something impressive. in fact, he's always disappointed me with his predictability.

Last Laugh? Emperor Joker? Even in more 'minor' storylines, he gets virtual control of Hush thanks to the pacemaker installed in Hush's heart. Could you have seen the outcome of his plans in, say, No Man's Land? Just kill every kid born during that saga in order to kill hope?

You make me 'lol'.


Originally posted by Sado22
gas, prep and guns<<<<<<<<<<<<<no gas, no prep and no gun. no hard feelings, but you failed badly there.

No hard feelings.

That being said, though, the Joker fought Batman evenly more than once- the same Batman that is vastly superior to Frank in fighting feats.


Originally posted by Sado22
Can joker pick up and hold a full grown man by one hand over a building? no. can he toss around same full grown man? no. punch through doors and walls? no.
i've never seen joker do anything phsyically impressive.

*Sigh*. Even if's not strength, the Joker constantly displays speeds on par with the pinnacle of what a human can be- that's already 'physically impressive' and above Frank's own ability.

DC's 'Who's Who' states that his strength levels can be absolutely abnormal. That's enough to qualify him as able to compete- on a physical level- with Frank.


Originally posted by Sado22
alright, so bloodlusted joker has a chance. but only against regular frank.
'blood lusted frank' not only held his own but killed Barracuda, The Russian, killed 100 armed vietcong soldiers while suffering from several gunshots and phsyical and mental trauma. in fact, 'serious frank' stalemated DareDevil and held his own against Tombstone (and now pay attention) in a toe-to-toe fight. the amount of power tombstone packs was something even DareDevil was afraid of. Is joker sort-of-meta like Tombstone? no.

The Joker also held his own- and even got royal kick in the nuts- against AQUAMAN, another 'serious meta'-level person. Ergo? Both can hold their owns against metahumans, if the right conditions are met (*cough*plotgods*cough*).

'Bloodlusted' Joker essentially stalemated Batman in physical combat, and while I will argue that Batman is regularly superior to the Joker in unarmed combat, that's enough to qualify that 'bloodlusted' Joker > 'bloodlusted' Frank- by feats and displays, Batman > Daredevil, except for 'sensory perception'.

It's already proven that the Joker is actually a match for Batman when absolutely, absolutely serious and bloodlusted. Can Frank do as much?

Originally posted by Sado22
fact of the matter is, even if joker goes bloodlusted, he still wouldn't shitstomp frank....and frank goes bloodlusted himself, god save joker.

Frank Bloodlusted > Joker not bloodlusted. Joker bloodlusted > Frank not bloodlusted. Joker not bloodlusted <=> (I can't quite tell) Frank not bloodlusted. Joker Bloodlusted > Frank Bloodlusted.

This is going by their individual feats; neither will shitstomp the other in any sort of situation.


Originally posted by Sado22
like what? once. doesn't count. especially since Joker can't hit harder than tombstone. neither can bats for that matter.

Already proven that Joker, when necessary, will stand up to Bats.

And no, Joker can't hit harder than Tombstone- but he has held off his own share of highly impressive foes.



Originally posted by Sado22
no, not really. so did he? and was it canon?
can catwoman beat DareDevil, Bullseye, Tombstone? no. can she even stand a chance in a straight up fight? barely. Can she beat them? no.
Frank did. more than once.
oh and can catwoman hold her own agianst Wolverine in a straight up fight? no.
heck, in their first encounter, Punisher had CAPTAIN AMERICA at his mercy.


Wolverine's cheap regeneration system grants him victory against virtually any non-enhanced human; Batman, the Joker, and Daredevil all count.

And Captain America, from what I've seen is, at best, on par with Batman- most likely lower, actually, considering that Batman has his inticrate and highly advanced knowledge of virtually all martial arts in existence. Did Punisher have him at his mercy in pure, close-ranged combat? I highly, highly doubt it.


Originally posted by Sado22
probably. i'd say DD and Bats is 50/50.
but this is besides the point.

Batman, IMO, should take a relatively decisive majority. But yeah, that's besides the point.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Sado22
yes, i've read "the killing joke" just as i've read all the important arcs of "The Overly Stale Batman". not only was he runnign away scared but barely managed to do any damage to Bats. using his cowl against him, was resourceful, but nothing compared to Frank. Frank held his own against Wolverine in a straight up fight by using the envirnoment against him. he surprised DD and crippled him in a straight fight TWICE because of his resroucefulness and presence of mind and killed The Russian again because of his resourcefulness. heck, he used a hot pizza against The Russian and won laughing out loud
you seriously need to read up "Weclome back, Frank".

You have revealed your motives in this point; the 'overly stale Batman'. I can also tell you the same if I say "The one-dimensional Punisher'.

Batman is, in my opinion, the greatest superhero of all time. But hey? That's just my opinion.

Also, the Joker's resourcefulness- from often using the environment to his advantage in combat and actually forming one of the most lethal toxins in existence from common household materials > Frank's.

Originally posted by Sado22
has joker ever bitten off a chunk of Batman's face? no.

The psychological damage the Joker has done to Batman is far, far worse.

Originally posted by Sado22
has he bitten off someone's nose or ear? no.

He drove multiple people insane and killed dozens of innocents on a whim.

Originally posted by Sado22
punched someone so hard in the mouth it went down his throat and then opened his hand? no.

Shot someone and showed pictures of that certain someone while nude, in a state of vulnerability and bleeding to death to that someone's father?

Disfigured people and killed them?
Originally posted by Sado22
put someone in the mincemeat machine? no.

Laced someone with poison just to get out of a paycheck? No.

Taken apart people's faces with a toxin just in order to practice? Nope.

Originally posted by Sado22
tossed someone off the empire state building? no.

Taunted someone while being beaten to death, taunting them about the deaths of their comrades? No.

Originally posted by Sado22
planted C4's in a building and blew it up WHILE INSIDE? no.

Legitimately been proven to not be afraid of anything? No.

hack someone to death with a crowbar? well, okay, so he's done that.

Originally posted by Sado22
killed 20,000 people in one night? no.

Destroyed the universe multiple times, and killed someone many, many times, shattering their minds? NO.

Originally posted by Sado22
THAT is unpredictable and sadistic.

What the Joker has done is much more so.


Originally posted by Sado22
Frank's outfit is the rubber variety. it won't work.

Face, hands, etc? Perhaps the needle can penetrate the rubber? Sometimes the Joker is displayed to use a needle instead of just the joybuzzer.



Originally posted by Sado22
do you really have something to say besides quoting DC, who possibly make the most onedimensional, shallow characters in comicbook history?

I've listed feats and quotes, and refuted your points; the Joker is both more intelligent, more sadistic, and more brutal than Punisher.

Oh, and I agree with you that Marvel > DC, in general. Except for Batman. Sufficiently complex and human, fitted with one of the most sadistic and psychopathic rogue galleries ever.


Originally posted by Sado22
arguable at best.
-DareDevil and Bats is 50/50 and he isn't more conditioned than Matt since Matt is also peak human.
-Bullseye and Bats would go to Bats but not in an easy fight, and he'd probably never pwn him the way Frank did.
-Tombstone- bats isn't beating him toe-to-toe for sure, since neither can DD.
-Wolverine- as much as i hate this short, hairy piece of shit, Batman would go down hard in a fight against him. Frank held his own against him for a whole length of an issue.

can Joker soak damage like Frank? no. hell no.

The Joker literally laughed off the pain done to him while receiving severe beatings, was shot multiple times and still survived, took massive falls and lived to tell the tale? When did Frank do that?

Daredevil < Batman. Feats and quotes prove it; Batman has superior strength and speed feats, to boot.



Originally posted by Sado22
Frank was about to beat Black Widow hadn't it been for interruptions.

Joker could have killed Batman more than once if he wanted to.


Originally posted by Sado22
the insane, psycho clown whose kill number is no where close to Frank's. and frank doesn't do it for "revenge". it began as revenge but its pure hatred.

Destroying the universe > dropping a nuke, wouldn't ya say?

The Joker had achieved world-class feats far in access of Punisher's; he killed just as many people personally, as well.


Originally posted by Sado22
sure, go ahead.

~Sado

Well, won't post scans at the moment, but other than the Aquaman battle, I'll at least tell you that when 'fighting' Nightwing, the Joker purposefully gave up an opportunity to shoot Nightwing dead, and when he got serious, easily landed a few blows on Nightwing- he let Nightwing beat him to death intentionally, believing that he was about to die anyway. All in the end of 'The Last Laugh'.

Yeah, there's the Cassie Cain deal, murder of certain cops with his bare hands (he once crushed a cop's throat using his handcuffs, got his gun, and shot down a room full of officers). Yeah, Punisher isn't far ahead in any category, except for maybe gun skills.

Badabing
Yeah, same nonsense as the last Pun/Joker thread.

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