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1) Sabers
2) Force
3)All out

Setting 1 is on Vjun
Setting 2 is on the facility that rham fought marek.

In the novelization, Kota attacks Vader when he invades their hideout on Coreilla. He snatches someone's lightsaber and leaps at Vader --

-- only to be caught in a telekinetic stranglehold and knocked aside.

I didn't see that in the comic...

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I didn't see that in the comic...

Read the first three words of my statement.

I know, i was implying that what was present in the novel was not present in the comic, thats all.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I know, i was implying that what was present in the novel was not present in the comic, thats all.

I know. Pisses me off. Just like Paratus not being there.

But to be honest, the comic fights seem much more releastic than the novel.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
But to be honest, the comic fights seem much more releastic than the novel.

You just say that because you don't want Vader's ass kicked.

Escape, you've changed too much. You're actually mildly funny, you say nice things to people, you use the ignore feature...

Puberty?

Originally posted by Faunus
Escape, you've changed too much. You're actually mildly funny, you say nice things to people, you use the ignore feature...

Puberty?

First, I'm hilarious. Second, I have always been kind. Third, I use the ignore feature to establish dominion over my inferiors. You're lucky you haven't graced it... yet.

Originally posted by Gideon
Second, I have always been kind.Until you stopped being kind...

You have no inferiors, with the notable exceptions of kotor3 and Nebaris, both of whom, I will gladly acknowledge, appear dedicated to the permanent degradation of mankind.

And please, don't jest. You wouldn't be capable of not reading my posts (which are diamonds in the rough) for a day.

hmmm. How much weaker is the blind Kota than the original? because when Marek force-choked him, he was able to defend it. (though not completely) I think marek showed a higher force ability than anything vader has EVER shown, more than any other character, with the possible exceptions of luke and DE sidious have EVER shown. His weakness is his saber ability. So if marek is 3rd in the universe, and Kota blocked that attack, he should have been able to block vader's.

Except... he's not "third in the universe." You're going to actually need to prove that, you know, rather than have us assume it.

Indeed. I'm rather sure that Yoda and Kyp Durron are a notch above him, and even in the less ridiculous (than TUF) EU, PT Jedi Masters demonstrate considerably ability. Ki-Adi-Mundi, while battered and exhausted on some desert planet or another, manages to tear a ship roughly the size of Jabba's barge out of the sand.

Originally posted by Gideon
Except... he's not "third in the universe." You're going to actually need to prove that, you know, rather than have us assume it.

oh, i know it. and i don't think so myself. I was saying in terms of the force mastery that we actually see demonstrated, he is probably about third highest, not to say there aren't a number of others who could surpass him, just never had the opportunity to do so in novelization or movie, etc. Gideon you have to admit, the novel ridiculousy overpowered the guy, from killing all those droids with one attack, to destroying AT-AT's by waving his hand, to blocking sidious lightning with his hands (something only yoda has ever done) his force mastery is near the top of what we've actually seen.

Originally posted by Gideon
You just say that because you don't want Vader's ass kicked. Pff yea, one off. But despite getting his ass kicked later, TFU just ranks him higher among the strongest.

Originally posted by truejedi
hmmm. How much weaker is the blind Kota than the original? because when Marek force-choked him, he was able to defend it. (though not completely) I think marek showed a higher force ability than anything vader has EVER shown, more than any other character, with the possible exceptions of luke and DE sidious have EVER shown. His weakness is his saber ability. So if marek is 3rd in the universe, and Kota blocked that attack, he should have been able to block vader's. Uh prove it, vader nearly mauled marek to death until marek achieved his clarity and turned the tide of battle. The fact is, while he DID defeat vader, he himself got his ass handed to him and nearly torn apart by vaders wrath eearlier in the duel.

And you will prove how exactly marek has shown anything greater than that of DARTH SIDIOUS that could destroy entire armada's with his force storm.

Originally posted by Faunus
Until you stopped being kind...

You have no inferiors, with the notable exceptions of kotor3 and Nebaris, both of whom, I will gladly acknowledge, appear dedicated to the permanent degradation of mankind.

And please, don't jest. You wouldn't be capable of not reading my posts (which are diamonds in the rough) for a day. What about me?

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
And you will prove how exactly marek has shown anything greater than that of DARTH SIDIOUS that could destroy entire armada's with his force storm.

I'm going have to agree with Ivalice. (can I still call you that?) I don't see how Malek can be considered 3rd in the "universe," he barely beat Vader and no offense to Vader there are a few characters that we can put above him.

guys, i took it back three posts later, if you read where i explain what i meant by saying that: just in the actions we see, not the ability we know to be there: plus i don't get where i said anything about sidious being < marek... even in the original post...

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I'm going have to agree with Ivalice. (can I still call you that?) I don't see how Malek can be considered 3rd in the "universe," he barely beat Vader and no offense to Vader there are a few characters that we can put above him. I still prefer arnold but its ok

By the way EliteH, where do you rank vader and marek amongst the top 10 sith?

This has to be the most overblown feat in the SW Mythos. He ended up destroying most of the fleet, not all of it. Plus, they were flying over and/or docked inside of their planet's base of operations, taken completely by surprise and without shields or evasive combat actions. The Force Storm itself is impressive for what it can do, but I see a lot of people exaggerating about what it actually did do.

As far as the fight goes, in Scenario 1:

1. Sabers - Vader, 9/10.
2. Force - Vader, 10/10.
3. All-Out - Vader, 9/10.

In Scenario 2:

1. Sabers - Vader, 6/10.
2. Force - Vader, 9/10.
3. All-Out - Vader, 7/10.






(Sorry if the first part of my message sounded...harsh? It wasn't intended as any kind of personal insult.)


EDIT: Hell, while we're at it, let's just address the question that was intended for Elite. I'd say overall Vader is anywhere from 4th to seventh, beneath Sidious, Nihilus, Caedus, probably Bane, probably Kun (with the amulets), and even potentially Revan. The suit hurts him a lot, head-to-head. Marek I'd put considerably further down. His dueling skills only really peaked when he was fighting Vader, which might be because of his familiarity with Vader's style (sparring, being his apprentice and all...). What he does with the Force to stormtroopers and non-Force sensitives is impressive, but what has he shown against other powerful individuals? He picks up two pillars and smashes an unsuspecting Vader. That's not so great of a task. He controls a Star Destroyer that was already falling - that was pretty neat, but hardly combat worthy. He Force Chokes Kota, who wasn't even a member of the PT Jedi Council and thus, probably not nearly as powerful as some of the other PT era Jedi. His lightning didn't do anything to Palpatine (nothing really wrong with that, though)...he does pick him up and slam him down, but we don't even know if Sidious allowed that or if Marek simply tore through Sids' force defenses.

*Shrugs*

Originally posted by Enyalus
As far as the fight goes, in Scenario 1:

1. Sabers - Vader, 9/10.
2. Force - Vader, 10/10.
3. All-Out - Vader, 9/10.

In Scenario 2:

1. Sabers - Vader, 6/10.
2. Force - Vader, 9/10.
3. All-Out - Vader, 7/10.Why wouldn't Vader win all of them, all the time?

Well said.

While it was painfully obvious that the Emperor wasn't attacking Marek to his greatest aptitude, what suggests that Palpatine would have allowed him to hurl him into the ceiling of the observation tower?

Originally posted by Gideon
While it was painfully obvious that the Emperor wasn't attacking Marek to his greatest aptitude, what suggests that Palpatine would have allowed him to hurl him into the ceiling of the observation tower? Hey check out the ANH vader vs Sion thread...


See what I did to TG

Originally posted by Gideon
While it was painfully obvious that the Emperor wasn't attacking Marek to his greatest aptitude, what suggests that Palpatine would have allowed him to hurl him into the ceiling of the observation tower?According to what you've told me, Palpatine was trying to turn Marek over to the dark side. Allowing himself to be pummeled would make far more sense than him just getting repeatedly owned by someone out to kill him.

You note that at one point he's in "lascivious pain." He was in a similar situation with Mace Windu seventeen years earlier - when he managed to get his face melted by his own lightning while playing it up for Anakin - but he knew what he was doing.

Originally posted by Faunus
According to what you've told me, Palpatine was trying to turn Marek over to the dark side. Allowing himself to be pummeled would make far more sense than him just getting repeatedly owned by someone out to kill him.

I don't follow. Yes, Palpatine was out to convert Starkiller to the dark side of the Force, hence why (as I said), he was not trying to kill him. But obviously, since SA was out to kill him, why would the Emperor allow him to hurl him into the ceiling?



He screamed in "lascivious pain" when Starkiller grappled with him and the Sith lightning channelled back into the Emperor's own body, the same ordeal as Windu, except this time, it was electrocuting his entire body, not just his face. He was in pain in both scenarios, the difference is that he simply could take it with Windu.

Well, in the first scenario Vader is fighting on a planet thick with DS Energy. Still, the occasional fluke might happen. Hence the near perfection, but not quite. In the second scenario, I just didn't want to be called a Vader fanboy. I can't see him losing to Kota at all.



Well, I don't feel comfortable putting Marek's force abilities on par or above Yoda. If they were, what was stopping Yoda from lifting Palpatine off the rotunda and hurling him hundreds of feet to the ground? See where I'm coming from? So, it's easier for me to believe that Palpatine simply wasn't trying, as opposed to saying Marek > ROTS Yoda. Which would make me sad, lol.



It's my opinion that his face was already disfigured and rotting before Mace deflects the Lightning back at him, and that he was simply using a previously unknown of Force power or makeup to make him look normal. The Force Lightning being redirected would explain his face looking somewhat "melted," but it does not explain why his eyes go from blue (?) to yellow and red. Furthermore, who gets hit in the face with their own attack, yet refuses to give it up if it is seriously hurting and/or disfiguring you?

That doesn't make any sense to me. (Please, no quips about my IQ.)

Originally posted by Enyalus
This has to be the most overblown feat in the SW Mythos. He ended up destroying most of the fleet, not all of it. Plus, they were flying over and/or docked inside of their planet's base of operations, taken completely by surprise and without shields or evasive combat actions. The Force Storm itself is impressive for what it can do, but I see a lot of people exaggerating about what it actually did do.















The fleet was not caught by surprise. They knew Palpatine was there. They were even ready to start a battle. Han even told Leia that they should blast them with everything they had, but Leia said no. Besides no shield would protect against a force storm. A force storm is a hole in the fabric of space and time. There is no defense against it.

Force Storm is a wormhole...and yes, I doubt any shield would be able to stop it. Still though.

Also, Palpatine's ship appeared out of hyperspace from virtually no where. Yes, they were caught off guard.

Leia was with Luke, on Palpatine's ship, with Palpatine.

Yes he appeared out of no where. He didn't attack the fleet until about 20 minutes later or more. So it wasn't like they were not prepared for some kind of attack by then.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Force Storm is a wormhole...and yes, I doubt any shield would be able to stop it. Still though.

Also, Palpatine's ship appeared out of hyperspace from virtually no where. Yes, they were caught off guard.

Leia was with Luke, on Palpatine's ship, with Palpatine. Between the time the eclipse arrived to leia docking the ship, there was ample time for the alliance to "get prepared" and counter attack.

Correct. The only reason why Palpatine's Force Storm did not finish off the New Republic fleet was because he lost control of it due to the efforts of Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa Solo; do not presume to imply that it simply lacked the destructive capability to finish it off.

Lacked destructive capability to finish the task? No, I'd never say that.

I would say, it didn't destroy the entire fleet. If people can nitpick about Nihilus' gravity-well Ravager ordeal, I can about Palpatine's Force Storm.

i've never read those comics. Was the force storm caused by a ritual?

No. Simply by Palpatine's own anger anchored by willpower.

Originally posted by Gideon
Correct. The only reason why Palpatine's Force Storm did not finish off the New Republic fleet was because he lost control of it due to the efforts of Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa Solo; do not presume to imply that it simply lacked the destructive capability to finish it off. It definitely had the destructive potential, but Palpatine's control over it wasn't absolute or perfect. That being said, if (and I stress if because I know they were not) they had been in battle formation or spread and trying to avoid it and trying to retreat, Palps wouldn't have been able to destroy the fleet.

@ Enyalus
Dude, come on, it HAD to be more complicated than that.

______________________________________________

As for the fight, Vader he's the ultimate pimp.

Actually if you look at the pics in the comic, the ships were trying to fly away from the storm. The pull of the wormhole was so strong that it sucked the ships in. If Luke and them did not cut Sidious off his power, then the storm would of became much larger, thus making it easier to consume more ships at once.

But harder to control as well.

He was controling it just fine until Luke and Leia cut him off his connection.

At that point yes, but palpatine admits that the storms are very vey hard to control, so basically the more massive the vortex is, the harder it is to control.

The audio book mentioned that he was about to unleash a second force storm inside of the eclipse to wipe out luke and leia before getting cut off.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
At that point yes, but palpatine admits that the storms are very vey hard to control, so basically the more massive the vortex is, the harder it is to control.

The audio book mentioned that he was about to unleash a second force storm inside of the eclipse to wipe out luke and leia before getting cut off. Exactly, his control was not perfect or complete.
Which was part of my arguement.


Are you ignoring me?

You are half right, the smaller storms can be easily controlled, and yes, i want to ignore you *wink wink*, who wouldn't?

When Palpatine first authored The Book of Anger, he admitted that his control over the Force Storms were not very good.

At the time of Dark Empire, his control over them is nearly perfect.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
You are half right, the smaller storms can be easily controlled, and yes, i want to ignore you *wink wink*, who wouldn't? If you want my attention, all you have to do is flex those abhorrently huge muscles

Nuh uh. I'm not that big yet(arnold big) and i don't flex for young boys *wink*

This conversation turned homosexual very quickly.

I was implying i flex for real women, not gay boi's like him.

Hmm you seem aroused, want to get on webcam?

You read my mind Vader-style.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I was implying i flex for real women, not gay boi's like him.

Hmm you seem aroused, want to get on webcam? Well, My **** are only B-cups and I got stubble on my girl split so I don't Know

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
At that point yes, but palpatine admits that the storms are very vey hard to control, so basically the more massive the vortex is, the harder it is to control.

The audio book mentioned that he was about to unleash a second force storm inside of the eclipse to wipe out luke and leia before getting cut off.

He admitted this in the book of anger years before he used the force storm against the fleet, so he had plenty of time to learn how to control the storms more efficiently. He even tells Luke and Leia that he does have control.

...And we're to take the word of the galaxy's greatest liar and narcissist?

Oh, I like that response...

Sadly, I'm stuck defending Sidious and have to 'yes.'

Originally posted by Gideon
...And we're to take the word of the galaxy's greatest liar and narcissist?

Well in that case, how do we know he wasn't lying when he wrote he had no control over the storms.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well in that case, how do we know he wasn't lying when he wrote he had no control over the storms.

Not very clever at all, stop being an ass. What Palpatine wrote in a semi-objective private journal is obviously going to be trusted a lot more than one of his narcissistic rants.

Originally posted by Gideon
Not very clever at all, stop being an ass. What Palpatine wrote in a semi-objective private journal is obviously going to be trusted a lot more than one of his narcissistic rants.

Im being an ass? The dark side sourcebook was not a journal. He let a lot of followers read the book, something you wouldn,t do with a journal. What reason would he have for lying.

You don't think after all those years he did not perfect his control? He showed in the comic that he was controling the storm perfectly until he got cut off from it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Im being an ass? The dark side sourcebook was not a journal. He let a lot of followers read the book, something you wouldn,t do with a journal. What reason would he have for lying.

You don't think after all those years he did not perfect his control? He showed in the comic that he was controling the storm perfectly until he got cut off from it.

i've not read it, but i think i can say without stretching anything, that he can't "show" anything in a comic book that can't be argued. Too many gaps between the panels. What "appears to be" in a comic book can hardly be offered as canon proof. If its not in the text, its not true, the art is too subjective, and widely open to analysis.

Originally posted by truejedi
i've not read it, but i think i can say without stretching anything, that he can't "show" anything in a comic book that can't be argued. Too many gaps between the panels. What "appears to be" in a comic book can hardly be offered as canon proof. If its not in the text, its not true, the art is too subjective, and widely open to analysis.

What you wrote made no sense. Sidious created the storm, he targeted the fleet, it started devouring the fleet, it was doing as he commanded, so i would say that pretty much showed he had a lot of control over it. When Luke cut Sidious's hand off it did not say in a text that he did so, but we see in the pictures that he did.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What you wrote made no sense. Sidious created the storm, he targeted the fleet, it started devouring the fleet, it was doing as he commanded, so i would say that pretty much showed he had a lot of control over it. When Luke cut Sidious's hand off it did not say in a text that he did so, but we see in the pictures that he did.

thats my point. What you see in a picture can be completely different that what someone else sees in a picture. It makes plenty of since. If it isn't written, when it comes to a comic book, someone else can question if the picture means what you think it means.

Originally posted by truejedi
thats my point. What you see in a picture can be completely different that what someone else sees in a picture. It makes plenty of since. If it isn't written, when it comes to a comic book, someone else can question if the picture means what you think it means.

Thats like me saying that what you read might be completely different than what someone else reads. If that were the case than the movies would be the lowest form of canon in Star Wars.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Thats like me saying that what you read might be completely different than what someone else reads. If that were the case than the movies would be the lowest form of canon in Star Wars.

if you haven't noticed, unless its something factual that can't be debated, the movie's DON'T hold all that high a place in a debate here. Someone can say that it looks like Dooku struggled more against Anakin than he did against Dooku in AOTC, but unless there is something in the novelization stating otherwise, another person can argue he had to exert himself more to beat Obi-wan so quickly. Its all subjective. Facts cannot be interpreted. THEY have precedence. Appearences cannot prove anything. they are always open for interpretation. Heck, did sidious lose to mace on purpose? looks like he didn't. looked like a legit fight... or you can say it didn't because of poor coreography, or you can say it did because he kicked the saber out of his hand, and i can say it didn't because sidious wanted him too. Just by watching the movie, two people with opposite fanboyisms are never going to agree on that scene. A comic book panel without words would work the same way. Is that look on sidious's face one of struggle, one of joy, one of pain, one of constipation? you can't intepret it unless it says specifically.

Originally posted by truejedi
if you haven't noticed, unless its something factual that can't be debated, the movie's DON'T hold all that high a place in a debate here. Someone can say that it looks like Dooku struggled more against Anakin than he did against Dooku in AOTC, but unless there is something in the novelization stating otherwise, another person can argue he had to exert himself more to beat Obi-wan so quickly. Its all subjective. Facts cannot be interpreted. THEY have precedence. Appearences cannot prove anything. they are always open for interpretation. Heck, did sidious lose to mace on purpose? looks like he didn't. looked like a legit fight... or you can say it didn't because of poor coreography, or you can say it did because he kicked the saber out of his hand, and i can say it didn't because sidious wanted him too. Just by watching the movie, two people with opposite fanboyisms are never going to agree on that scene. A comic book panel without words would work the same way. Is that look on sidious's face one of struggle, one of joy, one of pain, one of constipation? you can't intepret it unless it says specifically.

Well it did not look to me like Luke cut off Sidious's hand, so does it make it debateable. And it did say the storm was destroying the fleet, and Palpatine said that that is what he intended it to do.

That's hardly the case. In AotC, when lifting the pillar that Dooku had dropped to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan, Yoda's hands trembled, his face was as screwed up as it can get, his body literally shook, and he only just managed to move the pillar to the side. The only interpretation that you could arrive at with that is that Yoda faced considerable difficulty in achieving the feat.

Motherf*cker!

I already told you people before, Palpatine does have full control over the Force Storms. It's stated in the back of one issue of Dark Empire by the writer. Something to the affect of:

"When Palpatine first wrote The Book of Anger he notes that his doesn't have full control over the Force Storms (now he does)..."

I don't have the exact quote, but the part in parenthesis is definitely there. If I wasn't at work, I'd dig through my closet and post the exact line.

The end.

And yet he smashed transports and force pushed armies back with relative ease. And I just watched ROTS and it seems like he blew back three of the pods with one hand like it was nothing; see 3:21-3:24 in this video. Now I know Clone Wars is exagurated however it is still canon lol. However in the new series he does destroy an army by himself. But back on topic I believe Kota would lose to Vader; with Vader taking some damage in the process

Actually it looked to me that Yoda had a harder time catching the piller from falling, then actually lifting it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually it looked to me that Yoda had a harder time catching the piller from falling, then actually lifting it. ORLY?

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
ORLY?

????????

It means oh really.

LOL. I think I know what Enyalus is referring to, though it does pretty much state the opposite.

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6580/starwarsdarkempire0628nr3.jpg
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6580/starwarsdarkempire0628nr3.be2e462551.jpg

"Whether such boasts are true of not (they are not)..."

Perfect control? No. Enough to nearly perfectly manipulate it until he's cut off from the Force to the extent of transporting someone through the galaxy? Yes. Notice how you neglect the next sentence, though...

I like how Nebaris ignores ultra powerful techniques in the Dark Side rarely have perfect control. The control Palpatine did show, however, is near total

Which is rendered insignificant by the strong implications that the Eclipse (the only location he was shown to perform them) helped him focus his abilities, as well as the fact that his control would have been aided by the technique as well, according to the Freddom Nadd sourcebook.

I posted the proof for that on an old account here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=452755&pagenumber=7

"The power allows limited control of these Storms."

Yeah, good thing that Freedon Nadd's Force Storm is different from Palpatine and strictly related to meteorology. Palpatine's is a wormhole...and funny, how he's mentioned as the creator of and the only one to use this specific type of Force Storm.

The eclipse was not the only place he performed them. He created a storm while on byss, and sent it through hyperspace to coruscant. After he was cut off from the storm he had no more control. People put it like if he creates a storm he will automatically destroy himself from loss of control. I would say he had more control over the storms than he didn't.

Read the scan that I provided again. Look at the description. The Force Storm that Palpatine performed and the one described in the text are one in the same. Now, good day.

Your point being? The power behind them to control them to the extent he did is still unparalleled by any other Dark Sider

What are you talking about? You said Palpatine only shows the ability to create a force storm only in the eclipse. And that was not the only time he showed us the ability.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well it did not look to me like Luke cut off Sidious's hand, so does it make it debateable. And it did say the storm was destroying the fleet, and Palpatine said that that is what he intended it to do.

sure it does. its perfectly debatable. its a debate you might not have many followers, but it IS debatable. the majority of people reading it will assume he did cut it off, but that is NOT ABSOLUTE PROOF. That's my whole point, you CAN'T prove anything from a picture.