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Location Star Forge where Revan fought Malak.

Darth Revan
Darth Traya
Darth Malak

Any two people who could defeat the three in an an all out battle on the Star Forge.

LoTF Luke and Caedus.

Originally posted by Tangible God
LoTF Luke and Caedus.

I new I would see Luke's name. I am going to bring up a scenario:
Revan attacks with force lightning immediately as do Malak and Kreia with force drain.

What do Luke and Caedus counter with?

Any two? Hmm, DE Sidious and LOTF Luke.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Any two? Hmm, DE Sidious and LOTF Luke.


I new I DE Sidious would appear soon. I am going to bring up the same scenario to you Elite:
Revan attacks with force lightning immediately as do Malak and Kreia with force drain.

What do Luke and Sidious counter with?

Originally posted by Kotor3
I new I DE Sidious would appear soon. I am going to bring up the same scenario to you Elite:
Revan attacks with force lightning immediately as do Malak and Kreia with force drain.

What do Luke and Sidious counter with?

Or what if luke and Sid's get the first strike in? Then what? I don't think these types of debates are done with any kind of pre-scripted engagement, rather we look at the sum of the whole.

That being said, luke and Sidious easily outclass any one member of the trio, between luke's raw power and Sidious' unmatched knowledge of the force, I don't see what the trio has to offer that Luke and Sidious can't throw back three times stronger, the only ace in the hole they've got is Kreia's drain, and it's iffy if that'll even work against force user of this caliber.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Or what if luke and Sid's get the first strike in? Then what? I don't think these types of debates are done with any kind of pre-scripted engagement, rather we look at the sum of the whole.

That being said, luke and Sidious easily outclass any one member of the trio, between luke's raw power and Sidious' unmatched knowledge of the force, I don't see what the trio has to offer that Luke and Sidious can't throw back three times stronger, the only ace in the hole they've got is Kreia's drain, and it's iffy if that'll even work against force user of this caliber.

You are correct they both could attack at the same time using the force.

I am not saying the three could win, Revan's power has not been fully establish yet. I am just trying to make an argument for them if one can be made.

Malak also knows force drain and I would argue that Revan does but let say that only Malak and Kreia uses force drain, then what force attack would you say Luke and Sidious would use to counter with?

Originally posted by Kotor3
You are correct they both could attack at the same time using the force.

I am not saying the three could win, Revan's power has not been fully establish yet. I am just trying to make an argument for them if one can be made.

Malak also knows force drain and I would argue that Revan does but let say that only Malak and Kreia uses force drain, then what force attack would you say Luke and Sidious would use to counter with? To counter? Luke's Electric Judgement I feel would drop Malak, while Palpatine's own Lightning drops or incapacitates either Revan or Kreia, probably Kreia. Revan dies 3 seconds later as the sole witness of such awesomeness.

How about Revan+Kreia use Force StormLightning and Malak use reg. lightning While Palps hits on Kreia and Luke pukes in disgust...

Or how about yall stop using the same two ****ing guys over and over again, it MIGHT be one of the reasons this forum is boring as shit sometimes.



Better (and more interesting match) Sora bulq and Anakin AOTC-sabers only

Dooku and Nihl or however you spell his name in a force battled

How do you know if malaks force drain is even going to effect the 2 most powerful force users that easily? How do you know if kreia can strip 2 more powerful opponents off the force with any ease?

Fanboy.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
How about Revan+Kreia use Force StormLightning and Malak use reg. lightning While Palps hits on Kreia and Luke pukes in disgust...

Or how about yall stop using the same two ****ing guys over and over again, it MIGHT be one of the reasons this forum is boring as shit sometimes. Better yet. How bout you stop posting here.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Better yet. How bout you stop posting here. That's it...really...

I wonder what the other opinions are?

All out, well I say Yoda + Exar

Originally posted by Tangible God
To counter? Luke's Electric Judgement I feel would drop Malak, while Palpatine's own Lightning drops or incapacitates either Revan or Kreia, probably Kreia. Revan dies 3 seconds later as the sole witness of such awesomeness.

Nicely said Tangible! I would like to say something other than force lightning would take down Revan. He seem well versed in that technique but I can except the statement.

Does anyone here thinks Yoda and Mace would have a chance?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Does anyone here thinks Yoda and Mace would have a chance? Sabers=They win... easily
But see with the force, things get really complicated.

1.What has Mace (CW not included) shown in the force that rivals even Malak.(the stasis thing was kinda cool)

2. I doubt Yoda could hold out against these three for long if at all.

3.The Jedi of the PT era don't seem to use the force(amping up or rejuvenating isn't what I'm talking about) in conjunction with melee battle all that often. This is something that Jedi/Sith of the Old Sith Wars excelled at and were used to using.

4.Neither Jedi have seen the kind of lightning Revan is capable of and only Yoda has shown the ability to absorb/deflect/redirect Lightning with the force. If Mace blocks/reflects it back at ANY of the trio, they could probably (assuming it was used a lot more during the 2 wars that Revan and Malak fought and therefore they'd be conditioned more to its effects)
use there sabers to take him out.

5.The drain/sever that Kreia uses could take them out and even if it didn't it would temporarily weaken them or provide enough of a distraction for Revan and Malak to fry them with lightning.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Does anyone here thinks Yoda and Mace would have a chance? If they engage them in lightsabers early on and keep up the pressure, then they have A BIG chance.

Oh and isn't Electric Judgement basically a Jedi excuse to use lightning?

True they would use it to stun or subdue an enemy rather than kill him more often but still...

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Sabers=They win... easily
But see with the force, things get really complicated.

1.What has Mace (CW not included) shown in the force that rivals even Malak.(the stasis thing was kinda cool)

2. I doubt Yoda could hold out against these three for long if at all.

3.The Jedi of the PT era don't seem to use the force(amping up or rejuvenating isn't what I'm talking about) in conjunction with melee battle all that often. This is something that Jedi/Sith of the Old Sith Wars excelled at and were used to using.

4.Neither Jedi have seen the kind of lightning Revan is capable of and only Yoda has shown the ability to absorb/deflect/redirect Lightning with the force. If Mace blocks/reflects it back at ANY of the trio, they could probably (assuming it was used a lot more during the 2 wars that Revan and Malak fought and therefore they'd be conditioned more to its effects)
use there sabers to take him out.

5.The drain/sever that Kreia uses could take them out and even if it didn't it would temporarily weaken them or provide enough of a distraction for Revan and Malak to fry them with lightning.

Why do you say sabers easily? Yes PT era is known in general to be the height of saber combat but you are talking about great duelist who are powerful in the force.

Revan was known to be the best in his era, never defeated in one to one combat. We do not have details on his style but I doubt he would be easy to defeat in saber combat. Malak was second to Revan and Kreia can use three at a time.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Why do you say sabers easily? Yes PT era is known in general to be the height of saber combat but you are talking about great duelist who are powerful in the force.

Revan was known to be the best in his era, never defeated in one to one combat. We do not have details on his style but I doubt he would be easy to defeat in saber combat. Malak was second to Revan and Kreia can use three at a time. I didn't want to argue an hour about the sabers so I appealed to the majority And Vaapad

What the about other stuff, was it spot on, way off or what.


Im bored.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
I didn't want to argue an hour about the sabers so I appealed to the majority And Vaapad

What the about other stuff, was it spot on, way off or what.


Im bored.

Understood, your statements are sound and seem reasonable. How about ROTJ Sidious and Vader?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Understood, your statements are sound and seem reasonable. How about ROTJ Sidious and Vader? Vader will not survive this.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Why do you say sabers easily? Yes PT era is known in general to be the height of saber combat but you are talking about great duelist who are powerful in the force.

Revan was known to be the best in his era, never defeated in one to one combat. We do not have details on his style but I doubt he would be easy to defeat in saber combat. Malak was second to Revan and Kreia can use three at a time. Mace's Vapaad and Shatterpoint and Yoda's position of the Darkness' Greatest Foe combined with their era's sublime saber skills doesn't bode well for the trio. Kreia's triple lightsabers (if they're used here, can't remember) aren't indestructible, and it'd be gross overestimation to say that her TK-Saber skills match the likes of Mace and Yoda.

If this is Darth Revan, Yoda could Ataru him, or Mace could Vapaad him, even more so for Malak. Kreia's personal saber skills aren't worth a mention. The trio just won't win in sabers.

For use of the Force... it downplays Sidious numero Uno spot to say Yoda couldn't repel any of the trio's Lightning. And I can think of absolutely noting to suggest Yoda and Mace could resist Kreia's Drain, or Sever, or whatever. And I can think of nothing to suggest these PT Top Dogs couldn't resist it either. But I will say that if her Drain/Sever is all powerful then she becomes the ex Machina for all Vs.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Mace's Vapaad and Shatterpoint and Yoda's position of the Darkness' Greatest Foe combined with their era's sublime saber skills doesn't bode well for the trio. Kreia's triple lightsabers (if they're used here, can't remember) aren't indestructible, and it'd be gross overestimation to say that her TK-Saber skills match the likes of Mace and Yoda.

If this is Darth Revan, Yoda could Ataru him, or Mace could Vapaad him, even more so for Malak. Kreia's personal saber skills aren't worth a mention. The trio just won't win in sabers.

For use of the Force... it downplays Sidious numero Uno spot to say Yoda couldn't repel any of the trio's Lightning. And I can think of absolutely noting to suggest Yoda and Mace could resist Kreia's Drain, or Sever, or whatever. And I can think of nothing to suggest these PT Top Dogs couldn't resist it either. But I will say that if her Drain/Sever is all powerful then she becomes the ex Machina for all Vs.

Tangible I am not trying to make an argument that the kotor trio will win in a saber contest the PT duo can have it since we do not know the details of the Kotor trio saber skills. But it won't be an easy battle. We do know that each one of the trio were skilled in saber combat. Well at least two and then you have Kreia unique ability with three.

One thing about the trio force techniques. Malak and Kriea has shown force drain. I would argue that Revan knows it also but I will leave that alone. Malak and Revan has shown force lightning.

So you could have two people attack with force drain and one with force lightning or two people who attack with force lightning and one who attacks with force drain.

Scenario I see is that if Malak and Kreia use force drain together on Yoda or Mace that would either one kill them or leave then useless for a while, then the trio will gang up on the one left and take him out.

The same scenario if Malak and Revan used force lightning together on either Mace or Yoda. Then you have the star forge which adds to the dark side powers. I do not see the Jedi winning.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Tangible I am not trying to make an argument that the kotor trio will win in a saber contest the PT duo can have it since we do not know the details of the Kotor trio saber skills. But it won't be an easy battle. We do know that each one of the trio were skilled in saber combat. Well at least two and then you have Kreia unique ability with three.

One thing about the trio force techniques. Malak and Kriea has shown force drain. I would argue that Revan knows it also but I will leave that alone. Malak and Revan has shown force lightning.

So you could have two people attack with force drain and one with force lightning or two people who attack with force lightning and one who attacks with force drain.

Scenario I see is that if Malak and Kreia use force drain together on Yoda or Mace that would either one kill them or leave then useless for a while, then the trio will gang up on the one left and take him out.

The same scenario if Malak and Revan used force lightning together on either Mace or Yoda. Then you have the star forge which adds to the dark side powers. I do not see the Jedi winning. Sidious is #1 Sith, above the trio. It's simply fact that Yoda can withstand his Lightning, and Mace can turn it back on him. Not with ease, but it can be done. Revan and Malak (Malak especially) are not on Sidious' tier. Mace's Vapaad WILL soak up their Lightning, and Yoda WILL deflect it.

And again, the Force Drain is quite ambigous, especially outside the games. We know Malak can do it easily on near-dead Jedi noones ever heard of by name. We know Kreia can perform it on at least three exceptional Jedi Masters. Yoda and Mace are two of the most powerful Jedi ever... Malak's will do nothing, and if Yoda and Mace's reputation as the Greatest Foe and Vapaad Master, respectively, hold up... then there's little to indicate Kreia's Drain will do them in. If it can, then she is the single most powerful Sith Lord... and that's not allowed.

In saber combat, again, Malak and Revan won't be able to stand up to Vapaad, Shatterpoint, and Yoda.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Vader will not survive this. Uh he would be able to defeat malak and hold up for a while, considering that TFU just showed how powerful he really is as a combatant thanks to kota and marek.

His defeat at the hands of marek only showed how much stronger he really is.

Originally posted by Tangible God

For use of the Force... it downplays Sidious numero Uno spot to say Yoda couldn't repel any of the trio's Lightning. When I mentioned the lightning, I ATTEMPTED to imply they all use it at once. Lining up and giving it a try one at a time is apparently what your...


As usual you cherry pick the parts that favor you and ignore what damages your arguement... Just gonna ignore you

P.S. I have addressed my disagreements but, unlike you, will acknowledge that, for the rest of what you siad in that particular post, I agree with so as to not be unclear.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Uh he would be able to defeat malak and hold up for a while, considering that TFU just showed how powerful he really is as a combatant thanks to kota and marek.

His defeat at the hands of marek only showed how much stronger he really is. Well no shit he takes somebody with him and that would 99/100 be Malak but the sheer amount of lightning and not to mention that at this point it will be coming from different directions, his life support fails. Maybe he survives the lightning itself like he did in ROTJ, but like then, without his life support, he's ****ed.

Once again, what indicates they would attempt to strike him with lightning as the first move? What if he struck with a force wave first? What if palpatine unleashed his lightning first? What if sid and vader unleashed massive tk attacks first? What if vader grabs malak in a TK hold and ragdolled him?

Just what makes you think all three are going to strike with lightning first?

Originally posted by Tangible God
Sidious is #1 Sith, above the trio. It's simply fact that Yoda can withstand his Lightning, and Mace can turn it back on him. Not with ease, but it can be done. Revan and Malak (Malak especially) are not on Sidious' tier. Mace's Vapaad WILL soak up their Lightning, and Yoda WILL deflect it.

Tangible you should note that I mention two people using the same force attack on one person. Not that much to argue here but only to give view points. I have noted yours above. You are speculating that Sidious as of ROTS force lightning is more powerful than Revan and Malak combine force lightning. Ok! There are many unknowns here.

Based on the fact that Revan and Malak were both powerful and well versed in force lightning I am going to speculate that Revan and Malak using force lightning at the same time would be more devastating than ROTS Sidious force lightning. Thus even if Yoda could deflect the force attack he would be in no position to help Mace who would already be trying to block a force drain.

Originally posted by Tangible God

And again, the Force Drain is quite ambigous, especially outside the games. We know Malak can do it easily on near-dead Jedi noones ever heard of by name. We know Kreia can perform it on at least three exceptional Jedi Masters.

The fact is that Malak can perform force drain and combine with Kreia's force drain it should prove to be an effective attack. According to my knowledge I have no reason to believe that the PT era Jedi have knowledge of this force technique or how to defend against it.

Originally posted by Tangible God

Yoda and Mace are two of the most powerful Jedi ever... Malak's will do nothing, and if Yoda and Mace's reputation as the Greatest Foe and Vapaad Master, respectively, hold up... then there's little to indicate Kreia's Drain will do them in. If it can, then she is the single most powerful Sith Lord... and that's not allowed.

That definitely cannot be true about Kreia because Sith before here used force drain. It is a technique she learned from Sith teachings while on Malachor V. We also know that the Jedi of old could sever the force from a force user, a similar technique. Mostly likely Jedi and Sith developed techniques to defend against such attacks during the wars between them. The question is do we have any evidence that such knowledge filter down to the PT era since many techniques were lost?

PT era seem to concentrate more on saber skills instead of force techniques. That could be due to lack of knowledge when it came to the force.

Originally posted by Tangible God

In saber combat, again, Malak and Revan won't be able to stand up to Vapaad, Shatterpoint, and Yoda.

Ok.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Once again, what indicates they would attempt to strike him with lightning as the first move? What if he struck with a force wave first? What if palpatine unleashed his lightning first? What if sid and vader unleashed massive tk attacks first? What if vader grabs malak in a TK hold and ragdolled him?

Just what makes you think all three are going to strike with lightning first? Read the earlier post, it was a scenario that was presented...

Too many what ifs dude

Even present two more people Lumiya & Darth Caedus. How would they fair?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Even present two more people Lumiya & Darth Caedus. How would they fair? Very,Very good mostly because of the Lightwip and Caedus' tolerance for pain amongst other things.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Very,Very good mostly because of the Lightwip and Caedus' tolerance for pain amongst other things.

Could they defeat the three in your opinion? So far only Luke and DE Sidious together dictates a definite win.

Yep, in melee contest it is a definite win.


In the force I have no idea at all.

I'm going to say Darth Nihilus and Darth Bane.

Unique enough answer and...do you really need to ask how?

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'm going to say Darth Nihilus and Darth Bane.

Unique enough answer and...do you really need to ask how?

If it can be asked about Luke and DE Sidious why wouldn't it be able to be done with them?

I already presented a scenario in which the trio could attack. If you present a duo I would appreciate a counter to the attack presented.

Tangible presented some good scenarios for DE and Luke and Yoda and Mace. You are welcome to add.

Nihilus alone and not consuming himself.

I'm kinda new to most eu in starwars, but hows about DS Exile and Darth Zannah?

Originally posted by Captive Hero
I'm kinda new to most eu in starwars, but hows about DS Exile and Darth Zannah? They get destroyed in so many ways I don't have time to list them all.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Nihilus alone and not consuming himself.

Joking DarkSerpent. Stop being a fanboy!

Originally posted by Kotor3
Come on DarkSerpent. Stop being a fanboy! Kreia herself can't beat him and Malak is doomed Revan I really don't want to talk about it.




Remember, it was the Exiles nature that saved her, not any ability so the three would most likely end up Stunned and Consumed..

...Nihilus is cool as hell so shut up.

Originally posted by Kotor3
If it can be asked about Luke and DE Sidious why wouldn't it be able to be done with them?

I already presented a scenario in which the trio could attack. If you present a duo I would appreciate a counter to the attack presented.

Tangible presented some good scenarios for DE and Luke and Yoda and Mace. You are welcome to add.

This is on the Star Forge, so Nihilus and Bane both get a very unneccesary boost to their power.

Nihilus waves his hand, severing Traya and Malak at once (he's already done it to Traya, so...). Then he commands Bane to go forth and bring justice to his enemies, IE, only Revan. Bane is puzzled at his inability to use the singular form, but nonetheless, carries out his mission, wiping the floor with Revan in sabers or the Force.

Keep in mind that Bane would get nearly or perhaps even more than double the boost other darksiders would get on the Star Forge. He'd get the same boost as everyone else for using the Dark Side, but also the orbalisks would thrive in that environment, granting him more adrenaline and Dark Side "fuel." It would be enough to handle Revan, easily.

I don't recall it ever being stated either way, but I'm pretty sure the orbalisk were only ever capable of drawing dark side strength from their given host. That they could absorb dark side power from any dark side source is certainly never stated or implied in the source material.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Based on the fact that Revan and Malak were both powerful and well versed in force lightning I am going to speculate that Revan and Malak using force lightning at the same time would be more devastating than ROTS Sidious force lightning. Thus even if Yoda could deflect the force attack he would be in no position to help Mace who would already be trying to block a force drain. Speculate away, but there's nothing to indicate they can beat the most powerful Sith Lord in Force Lightning, and nothing to indicate they can overwhelm the only two Jedi (I think) who have resisted his Lightning.



Originally posted by Kotor3
The fact is that Malak can perform force drain and combine with Kreia's force drain it should prove to be an effective attack. According to my knowledge I have no reason to believe that the PT era Jedi have knowledge of this force technique or how to defend against it. The subject of the Force Drain is iffy at best. Again, there's nothing I can recall to measure Malak's skill in Force Drain. For all we know it's as weak as one of his common Acolyte's or as powerful as Kreia's. And again, there is nothing to indicate if Yoda or Mace would recognize a Force Drain or how thye could deal with it. But I'll say it once more: If Kreia's Force Drain is so powerful as to overhwlem the defences of two of the Order's most prestigous members (one of 'em the 900 year old grandmaster---I doubt Yoda of all PT Jedi wouldn't know of Force Drain), then Kreia's Drain automatically becomes a technique that will blow most competition out of the water.



Originally posted by Kotor3
That definitely cannot be true about Kreia because Sith before here used force drain. It is a technique she learned from Sith teachings while on Malachor V. We also know that the Jedi of old could sever the force from a force user, a similar technique. Mostly likely Jedi and Sith developed techniques to defend against such attacks during the wars between them. The question is do we have any evidence that such knowledge filter down to the PT era since many techniques were lost? I'll admit, I don't quite know what your talking about here.

Originally posted by Kotor3
PT era seem to concentrate more on saber skills instead of force techniques. That could be due to lack of knowledge when it came to the force. Once more, speculation. I know this is starting to sound resolutely conclusive, but one does not attain Greates Foe blah blah blah for lack of knowledge in the Force.


We're pretty much basing all this on the assumption that Rhevan, Malak and Kreia know about Yoda and Mace, and that they'll target the weakest one (Mace) at once.

If Malak's personality is any indication, he'll go straight for the opponent closest to him stature and fierceness--Mace. He'll lose. Revan's is an unknown, but if he Lightning's Yoda or engages him alone (which is likely as someone as intelligent as Revan won't ignore Yoda--leaving himself open to attack) he'll lose. And I see Kreia's three sabers aren't in the first post, so... she she Drains both at once----per game mechanics they lose 1/6 of their HP and keep going----and as I hope I'm not the only one here who immensly dislikes the idea of Kreia's Drain being a one-hit KO, she'll attempt it and weaken the duo, but for the life of me I can't see either dieing by it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
This is on the Star Forge, so Nihilus and Bane both get a very unneccesary boost to their power.

Nihilus waves his hand, severing Traya and Malak at once (he's already done it to Traya, so...). Then he commands Bane to go forth and bring justice to his enemies, IE, only Revan. Bane is puzzled at his inability to use the singular form, but nonetheless, carries out his mission, wiping the floor with Revan in sabers or the Force.

Keep in mind that Bane would get nearly or perhaps even more than double the boost other darksiders would get on the Star Forge. He'd get the same boost as everyone else for using the Dark Side, but also the orbalisks would thrive in that environment, granting him more adrenaline and Dark Side "fuel." It would be enough to handle Revan, easily. Nihilus severed Traya from the Force? When was this?

I think it only says something vague like, "Orbalisks draw power from the Dark Side of the Force itself, and magnify the user's power." I don't know for certain, either, though.



Force Drain been around for nearly 100,000 years, when the Sith Order was first founded, actually.



In game, of course. ....Ask Faunus for more specific details, please. I don't remember the exact part.

Originally posted by Enyalus
This is on the Star Forge, so Nihilus and Bane both get a very unneccesary boost to their power.

Nihilus waves his hand, severing Traya and Malak at once (he's already done it to Traya, so...). Then he commands Bane to go forth and bring justice to his enemies, IE, only Revan. Bane is puzzled at his inability to use the singular form, but nonetheless, carries out his mission, wiping the floor with Revan in sabers or the Force.

Keep in mind that Bane would get nearly or perhaps even more than double the boost other darksiders would get on the Star Forge. He'd get the same boost as everyone else for using the Dark Side, but also the orbalisks would thrive in that environment, granting him more adrenaline and Dark Side "fuel." It would be enough to handle Revan, easily.

Sticking with the scenario I presented, Nihilus waves his hand at the same time Revan, Malak, and Kreia unleashed there attacks. If Nihilus is able to take them or does as you stated how does he survive force lightning? Mostly likely he would be taken out by the impact of Revan and Malak force lightning attack.

That leaves Bane and Revan. This is up for opinion, handle Revan easily I do not know how you drew that conclusion?

Either way Bane through his admiration for Revan will mostly likely join forces with Revan and Kill Nihilus and Join the trio.

Originally posted by Enyalus


I think it only says something vague like, "Orbalisks draw power from the Dark Side of the Force itself, and magnify the user's power." I don't know for certain, either, though.



Force Drain been around for nearly 100,000 years, when the Sith Order was first founded, actually.



In game, of course. ....Ask Faunus for more specific details, please. I don't remember the exact part. Woah... woah! Slow down there... 100 000 years ago? May I ask where THAT Statistic came from?




And I don't recall Nihilus ever severing her. I remember Sion beating the shit out of here, and Nihilus standing watching, but that's it.

In game Traya mentions that the technique "is almost as old as the Sith itself."

On second thought...I guess that means either 100,000 years, or about 7,000 years ago (after the Schism).

Meh.

Originally posted by Enyalus
In game Traya mentions that the technique "is almost as old as the Sith itself."

On second thought...I guess that means either 100,000 years, or about 7,000 years ago (after the Schism).

Meh. Yeah but I don't recall Nihilus using it on her.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Speculate away, but there's nothing to indicate they can beat the most powerful Sith Lord in Force Lightning, and nothing to indicate they can overwhelm the only two Jedi (I think) who have resisted his Lightning.

There is nothing to indicate that there combine force lightning attack it not more powerful. Yes as stated already this is an unknown and is up for opinion. I gave my reasons as to why I speculate it would be more powerful. Just because Sidious is the most powerful does not mean he miles away in power. Maybe by DE but I doubt by ROTS. They could be very close for all we know.

Originally posted by Tangible God
The subject of the Force Drain is iffy at best. Again, there's nothing I can recall to measure Malak's skill in Force Drain. For all we know it's as weak as one of his common Acolyte's or as powerful as Kreia's.


Malak was able to force drain and replenish himself at the same time. That takes skill and is something that not even Kreia display. Malak had to be versed in the technique. Malak is a powerful force user, doubt it would be a weak attack.

Originally posted by Tangible God

And again, there is nothing to indicate if Yoda or Mace would recognize a Force Drain or how thye could deal with it. But I'll say it once more: If Kreia's Force Drain is so powerful as to overhwlem the defences of two of the Order's most prestigous members (one of 'em the 900 year old grandmaster---I doubt Yoda of all PT Jedi wouldn't know of Force Drain), then Kreia's Drain automatically becomes a technique that will blow most competition out of the water.

Kreia said it herself 'There are techniques in which there is no defense'. Anyway I already answer this.

Originally posted by Tangible God
I'll admit, I don't quite know what your talking about here.

Basically force drain technique was known by sith and Jedi of old and there had to be defensive techniques against force drain. Was that knowledge pass down to PT era we do not know. I say mostly likely not.

Originally posted by Tangible God

Once more, speculation. I know this is starting to sound resolutely conclusive, but one does not attain Greates Foe blah blah blah for lack of knowledge in the Force.

True but the PT era was not known for force techniques.

Originally posted by Tangible God

We're pretty much basing all this on the assumption that Rhevan, Malak and Kreia know about Yoda and Mace, and that they'll target the weakest one (Mace) at once.

I presented a scenario in which the trio could attack and welcome counters to those attacks from the opposition. It is the one I chose. You answer nicely for Sidious and Luke but now you are basing you argument on the fact that they are powerful force users.

So are the trio and they have the star forge to enhance there ability and knowledge of there environment.

Originally posted by Tangible God

If Malak's personality is any indication, he'll go straight for the opponent closest to him stature and fierceness--Mace. He'll lose. Revan's is an unknown, but if he Lightning's Yoda or engages him alone (which is likely as someone as intelligent as Revan won't ignore Yoda--leaving himself open to attack) he'll lose. And I see Kreia's three sabers aren't in the first post, so... she she Drains both at once----per game mechanics they lose 1/6 of their HP and keep going----and as I hope I'm not the only one here who immensly dislikes the idea of Kreia's Drain being a one-hit KO, she'll attempt it and weaken the duo, but for the life of me I can't see either dieing by it.

That is another way it could go. No comment.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Kreia herself can't beat him and Malak is doomed Revan I really don't want to talk about it.




Remember, it was the Exiles nature that saved her, not any ability so the three would most likely end up Stunned and Consumed..

Ok! You were serious, who would have figured?

Originally posted by Tangible God
And I don't recall Nihilus ever severing her. I remember Sion beating the shit out of here, and Nihilus standing watching, but that's it.
Kreia says that there are techniques for which there is no defense, then nihilus waves his hand and kreia reaches towards her lightsaber but it does not come to her.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I think it only says something vague like, "Orbalisks draw power from the Dark Side of the Force itself, and magnify the user's power." I don't know for certain, either, though.

The source material refers to them as "symbiotic" entities, which would generally indicate that they would only ever be able to feed off of their host.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
Kreia says that there are techniques for which there is no defense, then nihilus waves his hand and kreia reaches towards her lightsaber but it does not come to her. It was powerful ass force push and it did enough damage to severely weaken her. She did an almost but not quite on the saber summon. At that point she realized Sion was right there and well...


And I think she meant Military/Political/Commander power over the other sith.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
It was powerful ass force push and it did enough damage to severely weaken her. She did an almost but not quite on the saber summon. At that point she realized Sion was right there and well...
The problem with that theory is that there are defenses against force pushes.


Wait ..... what?




EDIT: And LOL at "Taven" downplaying Bane's abilities

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
The problem with that theory is that there are defenses against force pushes.


Wait ..... what?




1.Yeah, but Nihilus was hell-a powerful even by then.
2.When she said stripped of her power.

Originally posted by Taven
The source material refers to them as "symbiotic" entities, which would generally indicate that they would only ever be able to feed off of their host.

Okay. Let's say you're correct - which I will. Bane gets the Dark Side boost from the Star Forge, the orbalisks feed off of the increased Dark Side power of Bane, and grant him even more power. It works out the same as I initially said, just that in my scenario the power's external, and in your scenario, Bane's source of power would be more internal (which I believe to be superior anyway).

Originally posted by Enyalus




In game, of course. ....Ask Faunus for more specific details, please. I don't remember the exact part. I could argue that when she meant "i was stripped of my power", it could simply mean that the "power" was in reference to her being the head of the sith triumviate.

You could...

...Would you believe yourself?

Why not? Considering that traya still could reach out with the force to attempt to call her lightsaber to her, that would mean that she was not cut off the force.

Hm. Okay. Slight edit:

Nihilus waves his hand and snaps Traya and Malak's necks.

Zannah did so to two Jedi when she was 10. Nihilus has the most impressive TK feats in the entire mythos. He should be able to do the same.

And just where does it show nihilus being the best in TK? Oh right he lifted the ravager as claimed by tobin, invalid story, never proven.

That, and several other places throughout KOTOR 2.

Why're you giving me a hard time about this? You thought it was perfectly fine for DE Sidious to wave his hand and BFR or kill Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, even though he has never used TK to throw or move any Jedi - let alone two so powerful, let alone two at once.

What's up with the double standard, man?

Besides, if you can't accept the breaking of their necks, how about an instant Force Drain. He did so to an entire planet at once, and the only one who has survived it has been the Exile, and only because she was a wound in the Force. These ones are not.

Anywho, it doesn't really matter what method Nihilus uses - he kills off at least two, if not all three, with ease.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That, and several other places throughout KOTOR 2.

Why're you giving me a hard time about this? You thought it was perfectly fine for DE Sidious to wave his hand and BFR or kill Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, even though he has never used TK to throw or move any Jedi - let alone two so powerful, let alone two at once. Quote me where i said that sidious would snap the necks of obi wan and anakin at once.
Originally posted by Enyalus

What's up with the double standard, man? No double standards pal, again show me where i said that.
Originally posted by Enyalus

Besides, if you can't accept the breaking of their necks, how about an instant Force Drain. He did so to an entire planet at once, and the only one who has survived it has been the Exile, and only because she was a wound in the Force. These ones are not.

Anywho, it doesn't really matter what method Nihilus uses - he kills off at least two, if not all three, with ease. Once again get your facts straight, it was not a force drain but a technique that destroys his victims force bond, pay more attention to what kreia said.

Oh and if he could wipe out traya with relative ease let alone REVAN and traya, why couldn't he do it to a petty non force user like mandalore or a useless jedi like visas? Hmm.

Mm. You didn't seem to object to it. If I've misconstrued your opinion then I apologize. Though, I never said that you said it. I said you thought it was fine. Which I thought was your opinion on the matter.



I asked someone this before - what would you like me to call it? Because I'm too lazy to type, "The Technique that Destroys His Victim's Force Bonds." Would you prefer Force Sever? I'll do that if so. But we both know what I'm referring to.



Are you arguing to argue at this point? He could take Traya out easily. He waves his hand and nearly and/or does Force Sever her and knock her backwards. Then lets Sion deal with her. You don't think so?

Also, I said Traya and Malak, not Revan. Although I'm pretty sure Revan would not be immune to his dark variant of Force Sever, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt anyway because he seems to be so powerful.

He never tries to use his Force Sever on Visas, because he didn't want to kill her. He doesn't attempt it on Mandalore, either. My opinion on that is because he was occupied and weakened by trying to sever the Exile and having been further weakened by Visas' attempt at cutting their Force Bond. He probably thought Mandalore beneath the effort, going by what we know of the Sith and their arrogance.

That's my speculation as to why he doesn't try to Sever him. It makes no difference if my opinion is right or not - he simply doesn't attempt it.

Enyalus I stuck with your argument and gave a counter argument. I do not know where you are getting this about Nihilus. It has never been proven that his technique is instantaneous. Nor has it been proven that it could instantly drain someone as powerful as Malak and Kreia.

Another thing, Sion and Nihilus had special techniques but that in no way means they were more powerful than Malak or Kreia. It took Sion and Nihilus to take out Kreia. Nihilus would die to force lightning. No way he is taking out Malak and Kreia with a swipe of his hand.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Enyalus I stuck with your argument and gave a counter argument. I do not know where you are getting this about Nihilus. It has never been proven that his technique is instantaneous. Nor has it been proven that it could instantly drain someone as powerful as Malak and Kreia.

It's never been proven that it isn't instantaneous, either. In Unseen, Unheard, in one panel it shows Nihilus onboard his ship over Katarr. Visas mentions her people not seeing him, but only hearing him speak. The very next panel, the entire planet is ripping apart, buildings collapsing, dark areas spread across the globe, and Visas mentions everyone dying. This points to it all being fairly quick, considering nothing suggests otherwise.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Another thing, Sion and Nihilus had special techniques but that in no way means they were more powerful than Malak or Kreia. It took Sion and Nihilus to take out Kreia. Nihilus would die to force lightning. No way he is taking out Malak and Kreia with a swipe of his hand.

It did not take Sion and Nihilus to take out Traya. Nihilus casually waves his hand, drops her on her ass and severs her connection to the Force, then Sion jumps in and proceeds to kick her ass. Nihilus is never hard pressed when battling her. You can't even call it a battle.

Furthermore, we know how powerful Malak is on the Star Forge. This is even after amping himself by killing, what, 3 captured Jedi? Nihilus, already amazingly powerful, is going to also get a boost from being on there. How do I know his severing technique will work on someone like Malak and Traya? On Katarr, in addition to killing off the entire Force-sensitive Miraluka race, he kills a number of Jedi at the same time - including Jedi Masters Atris, Dorak, Zhar Lestin and Vandar Tokare. Three of them were on the Jedi High Council and Zhar Lestin was on the Dantooine Enclave Council, so, I'm quite sure he can handle one or two Sith Lords at once.

Furthermore, if Yoda can block Force Lightning with his bare hands, and the weak-ass General Kota can also block Force Lightning with his bare hands, what makes you think that a Dark Side amped, telekinetic and Master of the Force Darth Nihilus can't? Besides that, you only specified All-out, which means Nihilus would have his lightsaber. If Darth Bane's lightning - which disintegrates humans, severely chars 30 meter long drexls, and tears through Jedi Masters shields like paper - can be blocked by Raskta's lightsaber, I find it hard to believe Nihilus would be unable to do the same.

Originally posted by Enyalus

It's never been proven that it isn't instantaneous, either. In Unseen, Unheard, in one panel it shows Nihilus onboard his ship over Katarr. Visas mentions her people not seeing him, but only hearing him speak. The very next panel, the entire planet is ripping apart, buildings collapsing, dark areas spread across the globe, and Visas mentions everyone dying. This points to it all being fairly quick, considering nothing suggests otherwise.

Remember Enyalus when I say instantaneous I am referring only to a powerful force user. Kreia force drain was instant so was Nomi force sever on Ulic. So I do recognize the technique to be quick but we have no proof that it would work on or happen quickly to a powerful force user on the level of Kreia or Malak when they are in combat mode.

Also Malak and Kreia both were well versed in force drain. Malak could drain and replenish his energy at the same time. I doubt they did not know no defenses to the technique.

Originally posted by Enyalus

It did not take Sion and Nihilus to take out Traya. Nihilus casually waves his hand, drops her on her ass and severs her connection to the Force, then Sion jumps in and proceeds to kick her ass. Nihilus is never hard pressed when battling her. You can't even call it a battle.

Maybe not, but Kreia definitely seem to have been caught off guard. The point is she did not die from whatever attack Nihilus used.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Furthermore, we know how powerful Malak is on the Star Forge. This is even after amping himself by killing, what, 3 captured Jedi? Nihilus, already amazingly powerful, is going to also get a boost from being on there. How do I know his severing technique will work on someone like Malak and Traya? On Katarr, in addition to killing off the entire Force-sensitive Miraluka race, he kills a number of Jedi at the same time - including Jedi Masters Atris, Dorak, Zhar Lestin and Vandar Tokare. Three of them were on the Jedi High Council and Zhar Lestin was on the Dantooine Enclave Council, so, I'm quite sure he can handle one or two Sith Lords at once.

Enyalus, Kreia kill three with a wave of her hand also and called them weak before disposing of them. Not one person you mention remotely compares to Kreia or Malak in power. I am not going to even get into a discussion about Nihilus being more powerful than Malak. Nihilus only had one special technique.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Furthermore, if Yoda can block Force Lightning with his bare hands, and the weak-ass General Kota can also block Force Lightning with his bare hands, what makes you think that a Dark Side amped, telekinetic and Master of the Force Darth Nihilus can't? Besides that, you only specified All-out, which means Nihilus would have his lightsaber. If Darth Bane's lightning - which disintegrates humans, severely chars 30 meter long drexls, and tears through Jedi Masters shields like paper - can be blocked by Raskta's lightsaber, I find it hard to believe Nihilus would be unable to do the same.

How does Nihilus compare to Yoda who blocked force lightning from the most powerful sith lord ever with his bare hands? Malak nor Revan is weak in power. A combine force lightning attack from them block by Nihilus. Get real!

Remember the scenario you presented against the one I did. Nihilus waves his hand to force drain Kreia and Malak. This happens at the same time Revan and Malak attack with force lightning.

Tell me how does Nihilus block with his saber? Please read the previous posts.

Let me clarify a few things:

@Ivalice:

When the Exile and co. walked up to Nihilus, he put them in stasis. Immediately. He could've cut them into pieces right there, but he didn't. Instead, he tried to sever the Exile's connection to the Force and feed on the resulting reverberations in a desperate attempt to mitigate his literally insatiable hunger. Of course, due to the nature of his target, the attack backfired and weakened him considerably.

Why didn't he kill Visas, you asked? The game gives the player an opportunity to have Visas sacrifice herself to destroy the Force-bond she had with her former master, which would've crippled him even more. So clearly, killing her would be completely counterproductive, and unlike the Exile's unique and inherent qualities, that is something Nihilus would know.

And why didn't he kill Mandalore? Because he doesn't matter. Nihilus only pays attention to strong presences - and presumably, absences - in the Force. Mandalore is a man with a gun, and therefore not a remote threat to the Dark Lord.

@kotor3:

If you believe that the overwhelmingly destructive power Nihilus wielded against Katarr takes time to unleash, and would like to pass it off as a ritual or something in that mold, prove it. Visas says that he simply speaks, and everything dies. Not like in Sithisis - which was awesome - when Darth Sidious goes through two or three distinct procedures before using a massive crystal to carry out his peculiar ritual.

If you are for some reason referring to the technique he used on Traya, I don't know what to tell you. He literally waves his hand, and she gets knocked on her ass. Her ability to wield the Force becomes inferior to that of upside-down, freezing, face-slashed-open ESB Luke Skywalker. Sion wasn't "needed," as you laughably said. He was just there for the ride.

Originally posted by Faunus

@kotor3:

If you believe that the overwhelmingly destructive power Nihilus wielded against Katarr takes time to unleash, and would like to pass it off as a ritual or something in that mold, prove it. Visas says that he simply speaks, and everything dies. Not like in Sithisis - which was awesome - when Darth Sidious goes through two or three distinct procedures before using a massive crystal to carry out his peculiar ritual.

Not sure if this is in response to my most recent post but I have already answered this.

Originally posted by Faunus

If you are for some reason referring to the technique he used on Traya, I don't know what to tell you. He literally waves his hand, and she gets knocked on her ass. Her ability to wield the Force becomes inferior to that of upside-down, freezing, face-slashed-open ESB Luke Skywalker. Sion wasn't "needed," as you laughably said. He was just there for the ride.

I do not know when I made that statement about Sion. Are you sure it was me?

I've read your response. It's an old, worn out, and completely ineffective one. You need to prove your stance, because it is not implied in any way by the canon sources we're looking at. If you're still talking about the "powerful Force-users in combat mode," then that has been addressed. Nihilus did it to Traya with a flick of his wrist.


Talk about short-term memory.

Originally posted by Faunus
I've read your response. It's an old, worn out, and completely ineffective one. You need to prove your stance, because it is not implied in any way by the canon sources we're looking at. If you're still talking about the "powerful Force-users in combat mode," then that has been addressed. Nihilus did it to Traya with a flick of his wrist.


Talk about short-term memory.

Worn out, well prove so. We have been discussing this and you come along and now Nihilus did a force drain. Whatever, depending on how bored I am, I will see if I'll waste time responding to you.

Are you not understanding me, or something?

What Nihilus did to Katarr he did by speaking. You think that it takes time, or a ritual, or whatever. Prove it.

You also said that Nihilus needed Sion to take down Traya. This isn't the case, as I've definitively proven.

Now, I'm going to see you response, and based on just how stupid it is, I may or may not put you on ignore. The only people that I've ever put on my list were a hypocritical sock and someone who moronically accused me of being a bitter fanboy, so you know you're pushing it.

Originally posted by Faunus
Are you not understanding me, or something?

What Nihilus did to Katarr he did by speaking. You think that it takes time, or a ritual, or whatever. Prove it.

You also said that Nihilus needed Sion to take down Traya. This isn't the case, as I've definitively proven.

Now, I'm going to see you response, and based on just how stupid it is, I may or may not put you on ignore. The only people that I've ever put on my list were a hypocritical sock and someone who moronically accused me of being a bitter fanboy, so you know you're pushing it. ...Just cuss at him.

Originally posted by Faunus
Are you not understanding me, or something?

You know I really am trying not to get like other people on here who get irritated but Faunus I do not know what is up with your posts on this thread. You said you read my posts, then why do you keep asking questions I have answered. Here I will explain again.

Originally posted by Faunus

What Nihilus did to Katarr he did by speaking. You think that it takes time, or a ritual, or whatever. Prove it.

First thing Nihilus kill with a word has been argued so many times. Why do you even mention it like it is fact? When did I ever indicate that I believe it is done like a ritual? Here was my response:

"Remember Enyalus, when I say instantaneous I am referring only to a powerful force user. Kreia force drain was instant so was Nomi force sever on Ulic. So I do recognize the technique to be quick but we have no proof that it would work on or happen quickly to a powerful force user on the level of Kreia or Malak when they are in combat mode.

Also Malak and Kreia both were well versed in force drain. Malak could drain and replenish his energy at the same time. I doubt they did not know no defenses to the technique."

Originally posted by Faunus

You also said that Nihilus needed Sion to take down Traya. This isn't the case, as I've definitively proven.

I said both did it together, whether one or two was needed is not known. The point of the cut scene was to show they rebelled not Nihilus's power.

Also what is your point in mentioning Nihilus did not need Sion? You want to show he is more powerful than Kreia or perhaps Malak. Kreia maybe so but not Malak. Still this does not show that Nihilus can drain Malak or Kreia instantly.


Originally posted by Faunus

Now, I'm going to see you response, and based on just how stupid it is, I may or may not put you on ignore. The only people that I've ever put on my list were a hypocritical sock and someone who moronically accused me of being a bitter fanboy, so you know you're pushing it.

Whatever you decide Faunus I thought I was initially responding to Enyalus.

as afr as Malak goes there really isn't anything anywhere near that impressive

Originally posted by Kotor3
Since Nihilus and the Exile were both unique it that they were both wounds in the force, who was more powerful?You demonstrate a frightening inability to retain information.

I already told you that Nihilus put the Exile, Visas, and Mandalore in stasis as soon as they walked up to him. Despite the fact that he was starved - which was he wanted to "eat" Taris in the first place - he performed a feat similar to what Luke did to Jacen. Nihilus is by far the more powerful of the two, there's no question about it.

"She," and it means nothing. Just because they're similar in basic nature doesn't mean there's a real correlation in ability.

Ignoring the presence of the Star Forge, sure. Despite the power afforded to him by the station, he could not defeat Revan.

Fail?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Here is the question I pose to you and everyone else who keeps repeating the same thing about Nihilus.

Since Nihilus and the Exile were both unique it that they were both wounds in the force, who was more powerful?

Also as you are answering I would like you to know that the Exile is not view as more powerful or stronger in the the force than Revan or Yoda, yet he was a wound just like Nihilus and Kreia's greatest student.

"NO ONE Said Malak was anything more than the Run-of-the-mill Dark Lord". Quite a funny statement since he was second to Revan and able to battle him. Nihilus... But look its not always about power


It was due to Exile's nature that she survived at all, not any ablilty, anyone else would fall before his might.

Originally posted by Faunus
You demonstrate a frightening inability to retain information.

I already told you that Nihilus put the Exile, Visas, and Mandalore in stasis as soon as they walked up to him. Despite the fact that he was starved - which was he wanted to "eat" Taris in the first place - he performed a feat similar to what Luke did to Jacen. Nihilus is by far the more powerful of the two, there's no question about it.

Am I or your inability to comprehend the point I am making? The point is Nihilus without his special technique was not powerful enough to defeat his opponents. It was his technique that was special and made him powerful and such a danger. I do recognize that point.

Originally posted by Faunus

"She," and it means nothing. Just because they're similar in basic nature doesn't mean there's a real correlation in ability.

How not? The Jedi were scared the Exile would become like Nihilus. Kreia wanted to use the Exile in a similar way but under her control.

Originally posted by Faunus

Ignoring the presence of the Star Forge, sure. Despite the power afforded to him by the station, he could not defeat Revan.

Fail?

Faunus it is still an large assumption to assume how weak Malak was in comparison since we do not know how much power the Star Forge afforded Malak.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Nihilus... But look its not always about power


It was due to Exile's nature that she survived at all, not any ablilty, anyone else would fall before his might.

If that was true Nihilus would be all powerful and the most powerful sith ever. The title is given to another. Kreia never stated that Revan needed to come back and take care of Nihilus, neither did Revan do so.

Do not tell me Revan could not sense Nihilus when he was able to sense the true sith, something he felt was more of a danger than Nihilus. Nihilus most likely felt Revan also. Nihilus like Sion was unique but not unstoppable.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Am I or your inability to comprehend the point I am making? The point is Nihilus without his special technique was not powerful enough to defeat his opponents. It was his technique that was special and made him powerful and such a danger. I do recognize that point.Third time. Third goddamn time now.

STASIS. Not part of his "special technique." What he did to Traya? Completely different from the massive-scale attack he launched against Katarr. And that is to say nothing of his telekinesis, which was used to pull the Ravager out of the gravity well.

Uh-huh. Prove it.

And what she could have become has no bearing on what she is.

I've never argued that he's weak, but his greatest feat was killing two Jedi Knights with the Force; Kopecz of the Brotherhood did as much. Nihilus humiliated a Dark Lady of the Sith of considerable prowess, knowledge, and power - she killed three high-level Jedi Masters at once, with equally negligible effort, and later replicated the feat on a squad of Sith assassins.

Originally posted by Kotor3
If that was true Nihilus would be all powerful and the most powerful sith ever. The title is given to another. Kreia never stated that Revan needed to come back and take care of Nihilus, neither did Revan do so.

Do not tell me Revan could not sense Nihilus when he was able to sense the true sith, something he felt was more of a danger than Nihilus. Nihilus most likely felt Revan also. Nihilus like Sion was unique but not unstoppable. Baseless speculation.

Originally posted by Faunus
Third time. Third goddamn time now.

STASIS. Not part of his "special technique." What he did to Traya? Completely different from the massive-scale attack he launched against Katarr. And that is to say nothing of his telekinesis, which was used to pull the Ravager out of the gravity well.

I going to simply say what the Hell is your point? How does this have anything to do with what I was discussing before?

Originally posted by Faunus

Uh-huh. Prove it.

Since I am at work I can't pull the quote word for the word the conversation between the Jedi. Have you forgotten why the Jedi wanted to sever the force from the Exile?

Originally posted by Faunus

And what she could have become has no bearing on what she is.

Yes it does. Really what is your point? What the Exile was and could become is what made Kreia track her and want to take her as a student. Kreia wanted the force to be destroyed.

Originally posted by Faunus

I've never argued that he's weak, but his greatest feat was killing two Jedi Knights with the Force; Kopecz of the Brotherhood did as much. Nihilus humiliated a Dark Lady of the Sith of considerable prowess, knowledge, and power - she killed three high-level Jedi Masters at once, with equally negligible effort, and later replicated the feat on a squad of Sith assassins.

The greatest we know of. Anyway, fine, I do not want to argue Malak power in comparison to Nihilus. I can surely see Malak owning the Exile.

Originally posted by Faunus
Baseless speculation.

It is statements like this that make this discussion useless. Unless you are trying to prove that Nihilus is more powerful that Sidious which is pointless I have no idea how you see that as speculation.

Not one thing I said was not fact.

Faunus wins

Kotor3 fails utterly and completely

The PT Jedi had more foresight and awareness than you have brains.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Faunus wins

Kotor3 fails utterly and completely

The PT Jedi had more foresight and awareness than you have brains.

Thank you DarkSerpent your insults really tear me apart. Coming from you I take that as a compliment. How about you finish being a jackass on a different thread.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Thank you DarkSerpent your insults really tear me apart. Coming from you I take that as a compliment. How about you finish being a jackass on a different thread. I don't denie being a jackass, but my arguements have some thought, some intelligence, some proof, some truth, and some common sense even though I half-ass it often. You can't get any of these things through your head, hell atleast Tangible God has his logic and actual debating ability. Most of your OPINION is speculation with no proof or correlation with actuality.
Faunus has pretty much been yelling to someone with reading comprehension impairement and cognitive retardation who wouldn't know the difference between the Graffenfert Spot and the dog Spot.
I didn't mean to imply he was all-powerful. It was more a like the munchies than an ability.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
I don't denie being a jackass, but my arguements have some thought, some intelligence, some proof, some truth, and some common sense even though I half-ass it often. You can't get any of these things through your head, hell atleast Tangible God has his logic and actual debating ability. Most of your OPINION is speculation with no proof or correlation with actuality.
Faunus has pretty much been yelling to someone with reading comprehension impairement and cognitive retardation who wouldn't know the difference between the Graffenfert Spot and the dog Spot.
I didn't mean to imply he was all-powerful. It was more a like the munchies than an ability.

I could call you stupid and a few other names since certain of you internet people are so good at name calling. At least Schwarzenegger is entertaining when he insults and does not act like he is the great stars wars debater.

You make me laugh. I'm done speaking to jackasses!

...So if Kreia's Force Drain was instant, and Nomi's Force Sever was instant, and Nihilus' dark variant of Force Sever on Katarr was instant, and powerful enough to kill an entire conclave of Jedi Knights and Masters, including three members of the High Council, why would you think Nihilus' attack on Kreia and/or Malak would not be? The answer is that it would be.

At this point, look at all of Nihilus' feats, plus the fact that he was only defeated after being severely starved, severely weakened, and still managed to put up an incredible fight against two Jedi Knights and Mandalore the Ultimate, two of whom he wasn't even attempting to kill.

Now, I'm going to ask, in your honest opinion, do you believe Darth Malak when he is off of the Star Forge to be superior in power to Darth Nihilus? My answer is no way in hell. I hope yours will be the same. Thus, at base form we have:

Nihilus > Malak
Nihilus > Traya (by virtue of him utterly dismissing her with a flick of the wrist - it's clear that if he wanted her dead, she would be.)

Now, the boost that Malak received from the Star Forge is great, to be sure. So he's powerful now, that's nice. Nihilus is also going to get the same boost from also being on the Star Forge, and hence - his power is still greater than Malak's or Traya's.



Kreia was versed in Force Sever. You can't sever Nihilus, because he's a wound in the Force. Malak knew Force Drain and Life Drain. But as I'm hoping you'll agree, Nihilus' power trumps Malak's (as already shown above). Thus, he wouldn't possess enough power in the Force to overcome Nihilus with that particular technique. In addition to that, as someone around here is so fond of saying, Kreia states that, "There are some techniques for which there is no defense against." Nihilus' Force Sever was never shown to be resisted except by the Exile, who was a wound in the Force herself. There is therefore no evidence nor reason to assume that either one of them would be able to counter or resist Nihilus' power.

You're asking people to prove Nihilus can drain them instantly. All the evidence points to the fact that he can do just that. If you're thinking he cannot, then the burden is on you to prove it. Which is what Serpent and Faunus are getting at.


In the cut scene, does it look like he's trying to kill her? Do you not think that if he wanted to kill her, after waving his hand and completely messing her up, he would have ignited his lightsaber and cut her into pieces before she could even get up? Or Force Choke her to death? Or use his TK to toss her through the academy wall like a ragdoll?

He didn't want her dead, that's the simple answer.



Kreia can kill three Jedi Masters who she calls weak with a wave of her hand. Nihilus killed millions of Force sensitives and at minimum, a dozen Jedi. Three of whom were on the Jedi High Council - which means they were far more powerful than three 'weak Jedi Masters'.

Moreover, Nihilus has the most powerful form of Force Sever ever seen, he demonstrates his stasis ability by casually freezing three combatants (two powerful Force users) at once, and the most powerful telekinesis display ever seen.

Malak has Force Drain that won't affect Nihilus if Nihilus is stronger (which he is), and...what else, exactly? Force Lightning? Which we have no clue how powerful it is, but I will repost what I said before:

You only specified All-out, which means Nihilus would have his lightsaber. If Darth Bane's lightning - which disintegrates humans, severely chars 30 meter long drexls, and tears through Jedi Masters shields like paper - can be blocked by Raskta's lightsaber, I find it hard to believe Nihilus would be unable to do the same.

I'll add to that the fact that AOTC Obi-Wan was able to block Count Dooku's (one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever) Force Lightning casually with his lightsaber.

In other words, Malak's lightning is not going to be a problem for Nihilus to deal with. His Force Drain won't work. What else is there that he has, which makes you think he can compete with Darth Nihilus here?



I would like to point out that two Force users using Force Lightning does not double the power or effect of the Lightning, it merely makes it cover more area and might take more concentration to block or deflect. Raskta was able to block a dozen arcs of Darth Bane's lightning at once, for instance. Even though I doubt Nihilus is as fast as Raskta, it isn't totally unreasonable to say that he would be able to block or deflect it.

Also, Darth Sidious, whose Force Lightning is widely acknowledged to be most powerful version of it, has taken his hits from his own attack at least twice (once when Mace Windu redeflects it, and once when Marek rechannels it). Yet, Sidious managed to survive and didn't even seem hurt badly. It's not unreasonable to think that even if Nihilus was hit with one gout of lightning, he would survive. Remember that Nihilus will be at his peak, not starved or weakened, plus empowered by the Star Forge.

Nevertheless, I realize my answer is full of speculation and probably not satisfying to you. So I'm going to say that he won't be hit by two Force Lightning attacks at once. Why? Responding to your scenario post:



Here is one of my scenarios as a counter example and reasoning why Nihilus will not have to deal with two Force Lightning attacks:

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and allowing for The Trio to get their attacks in first, even though Nihilus waving his hand once is going to take less time than Malak and Revan shooting gouts of Lightning out.

The attack comes out. Nihilus makes an initial parry or deflection, but for argument's sake let's say he's getting overwhelmed. Well, Bane isn't going to just stand there. So Bane either uses his Force Scream, which blew four Jedi backwards about thirty feet, or Force Push, which completely exploded most of the foundation of an old temple, collapsing it totally. Keep in mind that since that time, he's had ten years of training and studying Revan's holocron, he's picked up two more holocrons, he's picked up the orbalisks who amp his Dark Side power, and he's on the Star Forge, meaning he's going to be amped even more.

Now, you cannot attack with the Force and defend with the Force at the same time. So, you can't use Force Lightning while using Force Shield. Each one takes concentration, each one takes a completely different kind of concentration. So either the Trio is hit and tossed back/dead from having their bones shattered, or they manage to cut their attack off and shield themselves in time (highly unlikely, but let's go with that instead).

Now Nihilus is free, he waves his hand, and say for arguments sake that he isn't able to kill them, but reduces Kreia and Malak to what he did with Traya during the cut scene - knocking them on their asses and messing up their Force connection. This has been proven to be within his capabilities, and thus I'll use it because it's been proven.

This is going to leave Malak and Kreia virtually helpless, while Nihilus and Bane are free to deal with Revan. Now then, let's say Bane fires off a blast of Force Lightning at Revan (probably blocked), to distract Revan from noticing that Nihilus has just glided over to Malak and Traya and casually beheaded them with his lightsaber.

It's now two on one, Bane who is virtually unbeatable in a duel with double the amp from Star Forge and orbalisk, added to his already considerable power, along with Darth Nihilus - probably the second most powerful Sith ever...against a practical unknown.

Thus, Revan dies. That's my counter scenario, and I think I was very reasonable in not simply saying, "Nihilus waves his hand and kills Malak and Traya, Bane solos Revan." Which probably could happen very easily.

Everything else has pretty much been said and argued for by Faunus, which is spot on.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Am I or your inability to comprehend the point I am making? The point is Nihilus without his special technique was not powerful enough to defeat his opponents. It was his technique that was special and made him powerful and such a danger. I do recognize that point.
1. The first sentence is a little garbled. I hope it was a failed attempt at an ad hominem attack, rather than a statement conveying information.
2. Nihilus did not use his special technique until after he had put the entire party in stasis. He could have killed them, as they were standing helpless on the bridge. He uses the 'drain' only after he has them at his mercy. The drain backfires, harming him rather than the Exile. His particular specialty (the drain) does not come into play until after one turning point in the battle.
Originally posted by Kotor3
How not? The Jedi were scared the Exile would become like Nihilus. Kreia wanted to use the Exile in a similar way but under her control.
Her potential to become like Nihilus does not mean that she has the same amount of power during this fight.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Faunus it is still an large assumption to assume how weak Malak was in comparison since we do not know how much power the Star Forge afforded Malak.
I'm not Faunus, but I think I see a problem here. We know that
Malak + Starforge << Revan (post KotOR)

Malak - Starforge is still << Revan
The only showing that we have from him is the Choke/Saber throw right before the final battle. (To be fair, I haven't read any comics)
Before we argue about how much weaker Malak is without the Starforge, we would have to have proof about his strength. With no proof for his power, we default to a state weaker than his endgame incarnation. How much weaker is not really very important b/c we have no cannonical stats for his power during the fight. As many have said before me, the fight is a total unknown. He could have been struggling before he drained the jedi, or not. Even the number of Jedi drained is unknown.

Originally posted by Enyalus


...So if Kreia's Force Drain was instant, and Nomi's Force Sever was instant, and Nihilus' dark variant of Force Sever on Katarr was instant, and powerful enough to kill an entire conclave of Jedi Knights and Masters, including three members of the High Council, why would you think Nihilus' attack on Kreia and/or Malak would not be? The answer is that it would be.

At this point, look at all of Nihilus' feats, plus the fact that he was only defeated after being severely starved, severely weakened, and still managed to put up an incredible fight against two Jedi Knights and Mandalore the Ultimate, two of whom he wasn't even attempting to kill.

Now, I'm going to ask, in your honest opinion, do you believe Darth Malak when he is off of the Star Forge to be superior in power to Darth Nihilus? My answer is no way in hell. I hope yours will be the same. Thus, at base form we have:

Nihilus > Malak
Nihilus > Traya (by virtue of him utterly dismissing her with a flick of the wrist - it's clear that if he wanted her dead, she would be.)

Now, the boost that Malak received from the Star Forge is great, to be sure. So he's powerful now, that's nice. Nihilus is also going to get the same boost from also being on the Star Forge, and hence - his power is still greater than Malak's or Traya's.



Kreia was versed in Force Sever. You can't sever Nihilus, because he's a wound in the Force. Malak knew Force Drain and Life Drain. But as I'm hoping you'll agree, Nihilus' power trumps Malak's (as already shown above). Thus, he wouldn't possess enough power in the Force to overcome Nihilus with that particular technique. In addition to that, as someone around here is so fond of saying, Kreia states that, "There are some techniques for which there is no defense against." Nihilus' Force Sever was never shown to be resisted except by the Exile, who was a wound in the Force herself. There is therefore no evidence nor reason to assume that either one of them would be able to counter or resist Nihilus' power.

You're asking people to prove Nihilus can drain them instantly. All the evidence points to the fact that he can do just that. If you're thinking he cannot, then the burden is on you to prove it. Which is what Serpent and Faunus are getting at.


In the cut scene, does it look like he's trying to kill her? Do you not think that if he wanted to kill her, after waving his hand and completely messing her up, he would have ignited his lightsaber and cut her into pieces before she could even get up? Or Force Choke her to death? Or use his TK to toss her through the academy wall like a ragdoll?

He didn't want her dead, that's the simple answer.



Kreia can kill three Jedi Masters who she calls weak with a wave of her hand. Nihilus killed millions of Force sensitives and at minimum, a dozen Jedi. Three of whom were on the Jedi High Council - which means they were far more powerful than three 'weak Jedi Masters'.

Moreover, Nihilus has the most powerful form of Force Sever ever seen, he demonstrates his stasis ability by casually freezing three combatants (two powerful Force users) at once, and the most powerful telekinesis display ever seen.

Malak has Force Drain that won't affect Nihilus if Nihilus is stronger (which he is), and...what else, exactly? Force Lightning? Which we have no clue how powerful it is, but I will repost what I said before:

You only specified All-out, which means Nihilus would have his lightsaber. If Darth Bane's lightning - which disintegrates humans, severely chars 30 meter long drexls, and tears through Jedi Masters shields like paper - can be blocked by Raskta's lightsaber, I find it hard to believe Nihilus would be unable to do the same.

I'll add to that the fact that AOTC Obi-Wan was able to block Count Dooku's (one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever) Force Lightning casually with his lightsaber.

In other words, Malak's lightning is not going to be a problem for Nihilus to deal with. His Force Drain won't work. What else is there that he has, which makes you think he can compete with Darth Nihilus here?



I would like to point out that two Force users using Force Lightning does not double the power or effect of the Lightning, it merely makes it cover more area and might take more concentration to block or deflect. Raskta was able to block a dozen arcs of Darth Bane's lightning at once, for instance. Even though I doubt Nihilus is as fast as Raskta, it isn't totally unreasonable to say that he would be able to block or deflect it.

Also, Darth Sidious, whose Force Lightning is widely acknowledged to be most powerful version of it, has taken his hits from his own attack at least twice (once when Mace Windu redeflects it, and once when Marek rechannels it). Yet, Sidious managed to survive and didn't even seem hurt badly. It's not unreasonable to think that even if Nihilus was hit with one gout of lightning, he would survive. Remember that Nihilus will be at his peak, not starved or weakened, plus empowered by the Star Forge.

Nevertheless, I realize my answer is full of speculation and probably not satisfying to you. So I'm going to say that he won't be hit by two Force Lightning attacks at once. Why? Responding to your scenario post:



Here is one of my scenarios as a counter example and reasoning why Nihilus will not have to deal with two Force Lightning attacks:

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and allowing for The Trio to get their attacks in first, even though Nihilus waving his hand once is going to take less time than Malak and Revan shooting gouts of Lightning out.

The attack comes out. Nihilus makes an initial parry or deflection, but for argument's sake let's say he's getting overwhelmed. Well, Bane isn't going to just stand there. So Bane either uses his Force Scream, which blew four Jedi backwards about thirty feet, or Force Push, which completely exploded most of the foundation of an old temple, collapsing it totally. Keep in mind that since that time, he's had ten years of training and studying Revan's holocron, he's picked up two more holocrons, he's picked up the orbalisks who amp his Dark Side power, and he's on the Star Forge, meaning he's going to be amped even more.

Now, you cannot attack with the Force and defend with the Force at the same time. So, you can't use Force Lightning while using Force Shield. Each one takes concentration, each one takes a completely different kind of concentration. So either the Trio is hit and tossed back/dead from having their bones shattered, or they manage to cut their attack off and shield themselves in time (highly unlikely, but let's go with that instead).

Now Nihilus is free, he waves his hand, and say for arguments sake that he isn't able to kill them, but reduces Kreia and Malak to what he did with Traya during the cut scene - knocking them on their asses and messing up their Force connection. This has been proven to be within his capabilities, and thus I'll use it because it's been proven.

This is going to leave Malak and Kreia virtually helpless, while Nihilus and Bane are free to deal with Revan. Now then, let's say Bane fires off a blast of Force Lightning at Revan (probably blocked), to distract Revan from noticing that Nihilus has just glided over to Malak and Traya and casually beheaded them with his lightsaber.

It's now two on one, Bane who is virtually unbeatable in a duel with double the amp from Star Forge and orbalisk, added to his already considerable power, along with Darth Nihilus - probably the second most powerful Sith ever...against a practical unknown.

Thus, Revan dies. That's my counter scenario, and I think I was very reasonable in not simply saying, "Nihilus waves his hand and kills Malak and Traya, Bane solos Revan." Which probably could happen very easily.

Everything else has pretty much been said and argued for by Faunus, which is spot on.

Enyalus simply put well said. When I first responded to Faunus I thought I was responding to you. That was my first mistake and then continuing my conversation with him and Serpent.

They took pieces of our conversation and confused the hell out of me. I do not agree with everything you said but they definitely were sound arguments. As I stated at the beginning of our conversation there are a lot of unknowns and I appreciate your view points.

Ha! Cool. Was waiting for you to bite my head off.

Thanks for being gentle.

Originally posted by Jbill311
1. The first sentence is a little garbled. I hope it was a failed attempt at an ad hominem attack, rather than a statement conveying information.
2. Nihilus did not use his special technique until after he had put the entire party in stasis. He could have killed them, as they were standing helpless on the bridge. He uses the 'drain' only after he has them at his mercy. The drain backfires, harming him rather than the Exile. His particular specialty (the drain) does not come into play until after one turning point in the battle.

Her potential to become like Nihilus does not mean that she has the same amount of power during this fight.


I'm not Faunus, but I think I see a problem here. We know that
Malak + Starforge << Revan (post KotOR)

Malak - Starforge is still << Revan
The only showing that we have from him is the Choke/Saber throw right before the final battle. (To be fair, I haven't read any comics)
Before we argue about how much weaker Malak is without the Starforge, we would have to have proof about his strength. With no proof for his power, we default to a state weaker than his endgame incarnation. How much weaker is not really very important b/c we have no cannonical stats for his power during the fight. As many have said before me, the fight is a total unknown. He could have been struggling before he drained the jedi, or not. Even the number of Jedi drained is unknown.

Jbill311 I do not agree with this statement "Her potential to become like Nihilus does not mean that she has the same amount of power during this fight". Nothing to discuss I respect your opinion on this.

I do have one point of view I would like to express:
In the Kotor period it seem that the Jedi were weak in comparison to the Sith. At least this is what Revan, Malak, and Kreia felt. That could have been to the Jedi knowledge of the force and there attitudes.

The point is, it seems that Revan, Malak, and Kreia learned many sith techniques that the jedi did not seem to have knowledge of. Lost techniques by the sith. So I really do not think comparing the Jedi to Revan, Malak, and Kreia is a good comparison. To say that Nihilus could do to the trio in this thread as easily as he did to the Jedi does not make sense to me.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Ha! Cool. Was waiting for you to bite my head off.

Thanks for being gentle.

I have no problem giving credit when due.

Quite simply, Kreia and Visas were terrified of Darth Nihilus, given all of their quotes about him. And they knew him best, Kreia being the one who trained him and Visas being his apprentice. Clearly, he was their superior - and it wasn't even close. A normal Malak may not even be stronger than Traya. Therefore, both of them get destroyed by him.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Quite simply, Kreia and Visas were terrified of Darth Nihilus, given all of their quotes about him. And they knew him best, Kreia being the one who trained him and Visas being his apprentice. Clearly, he was their superior - and it wasn't even close. A normal Malak may not even be stronger than Traya. Therefore, both of them get destroyed by him.

Malak is not given enough credit around here. It is a shame and not fair since his opponent was Revan. I believe Malak was truly second to Revan when it came to power and skill. I guess we won't know until there is some specific information about the Kotor crew.

Obviously he was second to Revan. A distant second. And The Sith Triumvirate wasn't around when Revan and Malak were Sith Lords, hence, they had no competition.

Plus, since Revan's skills and powers are unknown, saying Malak is a distant second makes him even weaker.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Malak is not given enough credit around here. It is a shame and not fair since his opponent was Revan. I believe Malak was truly second to Revan when it came to power and skill. I guess we won't know until there is some specific information about the Kotor crew. I just played the game recently, and Kreia didn't sound too terrified. Awed and apprehensive, but not too scared.

Like Qordis sounded when he spoke to and about Bane?

Iunno, never read any Bane paraphenalia.

LOTF Luke and Zonamma Sekot. And some other duos that are not as ridiculously powerful but still up there.

Kreia and Revan are formiddable opponents, and Malak is decently powerful as well, so they arent going to go down easily.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Obviously he was second to Revan. A distant second. And The Sith Triumvirate wasn't around when Revan and Malak were Sith Lords, hence, they had no competition.

Plus, since Revan's skills and powers are unknown, saying Malak is a distant second makes him even weaker.

We really do not know how distant they were in terms of power. It could have been similar to Sidious and Vader difference in power. Either way the distance was not great enough for anyone else to defeat Malak.

Basicly Enaylus my point of view holds Malak as second to Revan for the Kotor era. Nihilus special technique undoubtedly makes him powerful but I do not see him over Malak.

Anyway Enyalus Nihilus and Bane were a good pair to put against the trio.

How about Bane and Dooku?

Well, that difference was 20% (Vader was 80% as powerful as Sidious). 1/5th. That's relatively considerable. Combine that with the fact that Revan isn't the most powerful Sith Lord, and probably not even in the top three, and ta da...



Not only his special technique but his unique nature. But that isn't like that's the only reason he's a powerful Sith lord. His massive TK abilities, outclassing anything Malak or anyone else has shown, and mastery of Force Stasis are a few more reasons. There's no reason to assume he can't simply freeze all three in place while he and Bane walk over and kill them, as well. Furthermore, even though he doesn't show it, it's almost a given that Nihilus knows Force Lightning. It was one of the basic techniques taught at the Academy on Korriban, and more than likely taught at Malachor.

What techniques or power does Malak display that give you such a great impression of him? I'd also like to see some feats prior to his Star Forge time. He seems like a very average Jedi Knight who was captured and tortured by Demagol, one of the Mandalorian scientists.



If this were sabers only, absolutely. But Dooku's lightning is pathetic and his TK finesse won't do him any good against Traya or Revan. If Bane can't be severed from the Force by Traya, I'd almost say he can solo. :P ....Almost.

Originally posted by Enyalus

If this were sabers only, absolutely. But Dooku's lightning is pathetic and his TK finesse won't do him any good against Traya or Revan. If Bane can't be severed from the Force by Traya, I'd almost say he can solo. :P ....Almost.

Nah I really doubt it. Bane learned alot of what he knew from Revans teachings and pretty much worshipped him so it wouldnt make sense that Bane would even defeat Revan alone. Throw in Malak and Revans master and Bane pretty much gets owned.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nah I really doubt it. Bane learned alot of what he knew from Revans teachings and pretty much worshipped him so it wouldnt make sense that Bane would even defeat Revan alone. Throw in Malak and Revans master and Bane pretty much gets owned.

Bane was a student of history and looked towards Revan's philosophy of what the Sith should be to found his order. To the Sith, the apprentice should always surpass the master. Which by all evidence, Bane did. 'Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead,' and 'One to embody the power, the other to crave it' are two of Revan's tenets that Bane took to heart.

Moreover, Bane has access to all of Darth Revan's knowledge plus two more Sith holocrons, combined with orbalisks and being empowered by the Star Forge.

While I don't see him soloing, obviously, I think this is one of those "its closer than the experts think" kind of things.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Bane was a student of history and looked towards Revan's philosophy of what the Sith should be to found his order. To the Sith, the apprentice should always surpass the master. Which by all evidence, Bane did. 'Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead,' and 'One to embody the power, the other to crave it' are two of Revan's tenets that Bane took to heart.

Moreover, Bane has access to all of Darth Revan's knowledge plus two more Sith holocrons, combined with orbalisks and being empowered by the Star Forge.

While I don't see him soloing, obviously, I think this is one of those "its closer than the experts think" kind of things.

Yes Bane learned his ideals from Revan along with much of his knowledge. Whats your point? (not trying to be rude here but if you were making a point I missed it entirely). Bane still worshipped Revan, calling him a true master of the dark side. And its unlikely Revan would impart all his knowledge in that one holocron, nor is it likely IMO that Bane could use those techniques to the same extent that Revan could though I admit there is no real proof either way. And Revan would have access to the Star Forge also in this fight along with his allies so that point is irrelevent.

I could maybe see Revan vs Bane being a good fight in the absence of real evidence to the contrary, but Bane soloing everyone is really pushing it. It seems your in agreement with this, so yeah.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Well, that difference was 20% (Vader was 80% as powerful as Sidious). 1/5th. That's relatively considerable. Combine that with the fact that Revan isn't the most powerful Sith Lord, and probably not even in the top three, and ta da...

While I respect your opinion I definitely do not agree. Your top three you are undoubtedly referring to.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Not only his special technique but his unique nature. But that isn't like that's the only reason he's a powerful Sith lord. His massive TK abilities, outclassing anything Malak or anyone else has shown, and mastery of Force Stasis are a few more reasons. There's no reason to assume he can't simply freeze all three in place while he and Bane walk over and kill them, as well. Furthermore, even though he doesn't show it, it's almost a given that Nihilus knows Force Lightning. It was one of the basic techniques taught at the Academy on Korriban, and more than likely taught at Malachor....

I can also speculate that Revan knew force drain well as his student Malak and Kreia. I believe he does. Nihilus knowing force lightning maybe. Even if he does that does not mean he could block force lightning from two people at the same time.

Freeze all three, I doubt that very much. Since Kotor I does not mention many feats for Revan and Malak (particuarly Malak) all I can say is that everyone including Kreia view them as the top dogs.

Originally posted by Enyalus

What techniques or power does Malak display that give you such a great impression of him? I'd also like to see some feats prior to his Star Forge time. He seems like a very average Jedi Knight who was captured and tortured by Demagol, one of the Mandalorian scientists.

I could say what he did on the Leviathan but as I said earlier not that much to say in terms of feats. Only statements about his abilites and characteristics.

What GV said about Bane I agree if Revan and Malak fought Bane together. One on one is up for opinion.

My main point was that while Bane respected Revan, worshipping him is definitely not the right word I would use. In Revan, he saw the way a true Sith Lord should behave, as opposed to the corrupt and watered down teachings of the academy. So, I would say that Bane saw him as more of a model than anything else. And once he's destroyed the Brotherhood of Darkness and understands who he is, there's no evidence to think that Bane even gives a second thought to Revan or what he would do.

Besides the holocron, Revan authored at least one book on the Dark Side, which Bane also read at the Academy. So...

And since Revan is an unknown, Bane would win the match 10/10 times unless the fanboys come into play.

But anywho, I do agree Bane would lose in a solo battle. Traya wields four lightsabers and might even be able to sever him, and Revan's a great lightsaber combatant. No way Bane gets it done. When I said 'almost' I was somewhat teasing (hence the emoticon). I also don't think Dooku and Bane as a duo would cut it.

EDIT:



1) Darth Sidious as number one, which is canon.
2) Darth Nihilus as number two, due to his ability to kill an entire world of Force-sensitives and numerous Jedi at the same time. Also, his Force prowess was so great that he could simultaneously sense every Force-user in the galaxy.
3) Darth Bane at his peak, until we know more about Revan. Considering Bane had all of Revan's knowledge plus much more, and Dark Side boost from his armor, he gets my nod.

My fourth choice would probably be Vader. Again, until we know more about Revan.

Originally posted by Enyalus
My main point was that while Bane respected Revan, worshipping him is definitely not the right word I would use. In Revan, he saw the way a true Sith Lord should behave, as opposed to the corrupt and watered down teachings of the academy. So, I would say that Bane saw him as more of a model than anything else. And once he's destroyed the Brotherhood of Darkness and understands who he is, there's no evidence to think that Bane even gives a second thought to Revan or what he would do.

Besides the holocron, Revan authored at least one book on the Dark Side, which Bane also read at the Academy. So...

And since Revan is an unknown, Bane would win the match 10/10 times unless the fanboys come into play.

There were techniques that Bane was scared to try that Revan knew. Yes Bane looked at Revan as a Model for all sith to follow but he also recognize Revan to be a very powerful Sith Lord.

I doubt the person whom Bane followed as a model was fogotten by him after the destruction of the Brotherhood of Darkness. Enyalus all we have to do is pull up the numerous Bane vs Revan threads. There are plenty of good arguments for both sides. To say who would win is not being a fanboy but a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by Enyalus

But anywho, I do agree Bane would lose in a solo battle. Traya wields four lightsabers and might even be able to sever him, and Revan's a great lightsaber combatant. No way Bane gets it done. When I said 'almost' I was somewhat teasing (hence the emoticon). I also don't think Dooku and Bane as a duo would cut it.

EDIT:



1) Darth Sidious as number one, which is canon.
2) Darth Nihilus as number two, due to his ability to kill an entire world of Force-sensitives and numerous Jedi at the same time. Also, his Force prowess was so great that he could simultaneously sense every Force-user in the galaxy.
3) Darth Bane at his peak, until we know more about Revan. Considering Bane had all of Revan's knowledge plus much more, and Dark Side boost from his armor, he gets my nod.

My fourth choice would probably be Vader. Again, until we know more about Revan.

One thing we do know you are not a Revan fan. I have no problem admitting that I am. My list would include Revan in the top three. Nihilus as I stated before has a powerful technique but I do not know if he belongs in the top three. My opinion.

I am very busy so my responses will be space out.

Yeah, it pretty much is. How does one decide who would win in a contest of two combatants? They debate each person's skills, techniques, cunning, etc - see how they compare, and then arrive and what we hope will be a sound conclusion. Revan's skills and techniques aren't known. All we have is speculation.

I could pit Revan vs. Bergruutfa Clan (a group of Jedi younglings), say the team wins, and you wouldn't - logically - be able to refute it.
I wouldn't do that. No worries ; )



Not true. I'm a fan of any great strategist. From Revan to Thrawn to Shedao to Pellaeon. And based on his philosophies, especially as Darth Revan - he seems very cool. But I'm not going to freely call him one of the greatest Sith Lords ever, because there isn't any evidence to suggest it.



Based on what?

Once again enyalus, substantiate what is nihilus "massive TK", where did he demonstrated this "massive TK"?

And please don't ramble that nihilus could sense every force user in the galaxy when vader in the rise and fall of darth vader could do the same, just that he made a galaxy wide scan.

Oh and to refute that nihilus "could see every force user in the galaxy", why couldn't he see vrook? Why couldn't he see kavar? Why couldn't he see zez kai ell? Why couldn't he see lonna vash? master atris?

And to being a quote to trash that statement, visas stated : he does not see people, but planets and stars

Nihilus shouldn't really be considered in lists of "most powerful" and such. He's more presence than personality, and essentially a destructive, ravenous force of nature with no real goals or objectives. He simply exists, and as Visas put it, is literally "the darkness in which all things die." Palpatine was powerful, but he had ambition, he had emotion. He was a consummate strategist and pretty much played chess with the galaxy. Nihilus, has no such drive. He isn't exactly "evil," as the aforementioned Sith Lord most undoubtedly is, so much as chaos given form.

And in light of recent evidence, I can't even really see myself making an agreeable "top three" list. The mightiest of the ancient Sith were held in a form of admiration by even Palpatine, who mused in RoDV that the most powerful of them had understand the much sought-after power to stave off death. We've seen Simus do it, Bane notes that " power was so great" he lived for six hundred years on Yavin before being murdered by Nadd, and Ragnos was - and I quote - "the most powerful of the most powerful... the Dark Lord of the Sith." High praise.

Then of course there's Freedon Nadd. Having absorbed "all of teachings," he then promptly killed him. His body, like Palpatine's, was warped by the power he wielded, and interestingly Bane notes that this isn't a unique phenomenon.

So, I think these guys need to be re-evaluated.

If only someone had made a thread for just that purpose...

*******.

You are a funny one.

Pulling his capital ship out of the gravity well on Malachor V with the Force, while holding it together with the Force. I don't care whether or not you discredit it - it was quoted as a feat by more than just Tobin.



Okay...? I'm supposed to not consider Nihilus powerful because Darth Vader did the same?? Vader was powerful, without question. Luke Skywalker has also done it.



Nihilus was a nihilist. That's his personality. I like that he wasn't the typical Sith, dominate-the-galaxy stereotypical evil.



True. I hesistated to make that top three, but Ragnos and many others are too unknown. As far as Simus, he couldn't even move himself, having to be carried around. And wasn't he killed by a blaster by one of Sadow's troops, IIRC?

Do you remember who said that quote regarding Ragnos? Was it Ludo Kressh?



Yeah, but Nadd dispatched Sadow rather easily. And then Nadd, who was supposed to be such a badass, has his spirit destroyed by a novice Dark Sider Kun even easier. Because of such things, it makes me view their accomplishments in a more critical light.



I agree. I'm looking forward to Project Holocron's continuing success.



EDIT: Just so we're clear, I'm a Darth Nihilus fanboy.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pulling his capital ship out of the gravity well on Malachor V with the Force, while holding it together with the Force. I don't care whether or not you discredit it - it was quoted as a feat by more than just Tobin.Agreed. This is getting absurd.

It's why I like him now. He's not just a man with the power of a god, he's simply chaos given form, and is completely unique in that regard.

Well, headless Simus couldn't move himself around. But that fact that he was, y'know, a head kinda speaks to his prowess. And he was noted as being very powerful before his duel with Ragnos.

Author's synopsis, actually, so it isn't a fallible statement.

We don't know how Nadd killed Sadow, actually.

Well, he was a spirit, and it was with the amulet that Kun killed him.

Actually, he's not.

Originally posted by Gideon
Actually, he's not.

I assume you mean the whole 'Chaos given form' part?

Who else did you have in mind?

As a representative force of chaos, Darth Nihilus is unique. As a veritable force of nature trapped in the shell of a man, he is not. Nihilus drained the Force from his victims on a massive scale to satiate his hunger, such was the depth of his depravity. Palpatine's goals were something similar, except he intended to apoethesize himself and then consume the beings and consciousness of the denizens of the universe into his very being. Hence why his presence was an even greater blight on the Force than Nihilus's own. They are essentially the same except Nihilus was very short-term and out of control.

For what its worth, I don't think Faunus meant that Nihilus was unique in regards to 'He's not just a man with the power of a god', only to the part about 'he's simply chaos given form'.

I agree with both you and Faunus there.



That's where I would disagree, for the most part. Sidious isn't a wound in the Force, which Nihilus is. Really, by that alone it makes Nihilus a bigger blight. That, and the fact that he essentially feeds on the Force, which - were the Force sentient - I'm sure it wouldn't like.

If you are saying that Sidious was a bigger threat to life than Nihilus was, I would agree only insofar as his Dark Empire incarnation is concerned. Prior to that, Nihilus kills on a much more massive scale. Even without trying, simply being around him for prolonged periods causes beings to die.



I've seen you mention this once before, but I'm unaware of it. I thought that Palpatine's goal was to rule over the galaxy forever, and that was that. (Trivialized, I know. But you get my drift.)

It does not matter. For all of his vaunted status as a wound in the Force, Darth Nihilus's very presence did not bring it out of balance. Despite the fact that he could snuff out all life on a planet rather casually, he wasn't a threat to the Force itself. Palpatine's very existence brought the Force out of balance, blunted Jedi sensitivity, and caused an unprecedented time of darkness over the galaxy. Hence why Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One, was born "in a time of greatest despair" to remove that which was throwing the Force out of balance: Palpatine. Not Nihilus.



It's a complex argument, you see. That Palpatine's effect on the Force is greater than that of Nihilus isn't arguable. Was he a greater threat to life? Perhaps. Nihilus was driven by perpetual hunger, not by a conscious desire to do evil. The Emperor planned to absorb the denizens of the galaxy into his being before moving on to consume the universe. Moreover, let it be known that Palpatine's parasitic nature is very similar. He was leeching off of the twenty billion denizens of Byss to prolong his own life and transformed the planet into one of the "strongest dark side sites in the whole galaxy" even though he was hardly ever there.



It's not. A galaxy first, then more, then the whole universe.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Pulling his capital ship out of the gravity well on Malachor V with the Force, while holding it together with the Force. I don't care whether or not you discredit it - it was quoted as a feat by more than just Tobin.


So, just because tobin says so makes it so considering that he is a fallible third party character and the fact that he was not actually present at malachor to witness how the ship was actually retrieved from the well. So i guess that means your a transsexual simply because i say so even though i had never met you before nor have any idea how you look like.

Hell i guess that exar kun is also the most powerful sith lord simply because suvam tam said so.

Oh and substantiate "it was quoted more than just tobin", the loading screen doesn't specifically say he used the force either, it merely stated he got the ravager from malachor to escape imprisonment.

Prove up or drop the whole point.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Okay...? I'm supposed to not consider Nihilus powerful because Darth Vader did the same?? Vader was powerful, without question. Luke Skywalker has also done it. You don't get my point do you?

Your disputing nihilus #2 simply because of him being "Able to sense every force user in the galaxy"(when infact he couldn't as he didn't sense the remaining jedi masters) other than the other feat of him wiping out katarr.

Originally posted by Gideon
As a representative force of chaos, Darth Nihilus is unique. As a veritable force of nature trapped in the shell of a man, he is not. Nihilus drained the Force from his victims on a massive scale to satiate his hunger, such was the depth of his depravity. Palpatine's goals were something similar, except he intended to apoethesize himself and then consume the beings and consciousness of the denizens of the universe into his very being. Hence why his presence was an even greater blight on the Force than Nihilus's own. They are essentially the same except Nihilus was very short-term and out of control. The point is, Palpatine had definitive plans and goals. It can be inferred that Nihilus has no real concept of what he's doing, as Traya notes that he will one day turn on the Sith and consume them as well, and travel until there is simply nothing left for him to feed on. Nihilus doesn't really think that way. He just is, and he acts on a single instinct - to satisfy his hunger.

Originally posted by Faunus
The point is, Palpatine had definitive plans and goals. It can be inferred that Nihilus has no real concept of what he's doing, as Traya notes that he will one day turn on the Sith and consume them as well, and travel until there is simply nothing left for him to feed on. Nihilus doesn't really think that way. He just is, and he acts on a single instinct - to satisfy his hunger.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that the KotOR II staff simply gave DE Sidious a new name and made him less of a dick. I think it's fascinating to compare the two and speculate why Sidious is ultimately worse.

Gideon, your arguments are pretty. I like them. I'll concede.



Yes, I get it. But you should know that I didn't rank him #2 only because he was able to sense every Force user in the galaxy. He also has amazing telekinetic power. And has killed off an entire world populated by Force-adepts and Jedi, instantly. Just because I did not specify that in that post doesn't mean I haven't elsewhere, or in other posts in this very thread.

But, I notice you do this a lot. You argue without giving opinions of your own. And, I'm wondering why? Do you think Nihilus is the second most powerful Sith Lord? If not, who do you think that would be and why? I mean, I don't have a monopoly on opinions - feel free to give me some of your own.

Do you agree that Nihilus and Bane as a team can take the Sith Trio KOTOR posted? Yes, no, why? Et cetera.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yeah, it's pretty obvious that the KotOR II staff simply gave DE Sidious a new name and made him less of a dick. I think it's fascinating to compare the two and speculate why Sidious is ultimately worse.

Sidious is worse because he's consciously evil and chooses to be so. Nihilus' hunger dominates him. Essentially, he can't help himself. Sidious does have a choice - and I think it makes him far more repugnant.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yeah, it's pretty obvious that the KotOR II staff simply gave DE Sidious a new name and made him less of a dick. I think it's fascinating to compare the two and speculate why Sidious is ultimately worse. I agree in that Sidious is ultimately worse because, you know, he does stuff. But Nihilus and Sidious aren't remotely alike. I fail to see the apparently numerous similarities.

Originally posted by Faunus
I agree in that Sidious is ultimately worse because, you know, he does stuff.

Eh? Well, obviously Sidious is more evil. But why was he the greater threat to the Force?



Here: they're both galactic parasites, both drain others to prolong their lives, both want to keep going until they've consumed everything.

Originally posted by Gideon
Eh? Well, obviously Sidious is more evil. But why was he the greater threat to the Force?I'm going to stop here, because I have no idea where this is going. I'm lost.

And those three qualities make him a Sidious-knockoff? In that case, Anakin is basically an angry Luke clone, because he's immeasurably powerful, reckless, forms "dangerous" attachments, and gets his hand chopped off.

Seriously, three minor similarities do not constitute a rehashed character.

Jesus, my brain is failing. I must sleep...

I'm not dismissing him as a knockoff, you douche.
But everything about Nihilus can be found in the DESB for Sidious. And I think they are fascinating to compare.

Originally posted by Enyalus



Yes, I get it. But you should know that I didn't rank him #2 only because he was able to sense every Force user in the galaxy.
I know, sorry if i forgot to specify properly what i was trying to imply.
Originally posted by Enyalus

He also has amazing telekinetic power. And has killed off an entire world populated by Force-adepts and Jedi, instantly.

I agree with the amazing feat of him killing the entire planet population, but again i don't think it was instant considering the planets size. But i still however, absolutely do not agree with his "amazing telekinetic power" because there simply isn't anything to substantiate that claim.

I asked you(and i had asked several members in KMC for years to prove that he actually did drag an entire ship out of the well, and nobody could find any concrete evidence to prove that).
Originally posted by Enyalus
But, I notice you do this a lot. You argue without giving opinions of your own. And, I'm wondering why? Do you think Nihilus is the second most powerful Sith Lord? If not, who do you think that would be and why? I mean, I don't have a monopoly on opinions - feel free to give me some of your own.

I didn't give opinions because i didn't feel like so, but since you asked i DO agree with nihilus being in the top, however i don't agree with him being #2 because there other candidates with a higher force mastery and knowledge of the force.

I don't even know if nihilus "sever force uber techique" can be controlled considering that it was stated that all life dies, sacrificing itself to his hunger(it came from visas) and that it gets active when he hungers.

Because of these few controversies(they are to me), i can't exactly give him a solid number on the top 10 list but you have your own opinion so i'll respect that
Originally posted by Enyalus
Do you agree that Nihilus and Bane as a team can take the Sith Trio KOTOR posted? Yes, no, why? Et cetera. If the situation and circumstances favour them, why not?

We don't know what exactly would happen, but this is all hypothetical.

If nihilus is in a state of hunger and needs to feed, he most likely would feed of the few of them provided they don't kill him first, i don't think its that easy for him to kill off 3 powerful force users at once but with bane at his side...

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not dismissing him as a knockoff, you douche.
But everything about Nihilus can be found in the DESB for Sidious. And I think they are fascinating to compare. Oh. You need to communicate more effectively. It's like you have an online lisp, plus you can't make an "r" sound, and you have no teeth. Which would make your lisp impossible...

Anyway, yeah, I think I get you. Nihilus is simple enough to fit into a description of Palpatine. Yes?

Well, Tobin says that "He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor," and that it was "a measure of his power." Now, he couldn't have gotten another ship to tow it or pull it out. Why? Because the Mass Shadows Generator was still active and would have pulled any ship attempting to rescue it down to the planet, crushing it. Furthermore, why would outside help be indictative as a measure of his power?

The logical answer there is that it wouldn't. Regarding Tobin being a fallible third party, this is true. However, Tobin is a member of the crew of the Ravager so he has active knowledge of the ship, its history, and its owner - he isn't a completely ignorant speculating third-party. Added to this, Tobin is practically dead - why would he lie?

The other quotes which say essentially the same thing, but more vague, only confirm what Tobin says. Why would they repeat the same thing one of their characters have already said? So, they quote it a different way, pointing to what Tobin has already said.

It's okay to draw conclusions if the evidence is there. It's circumstantial, but it makes sense.







The rest of your post, very cool.

Originally posted by Enyalus




The logical answer there is that it wouldn't. Regarding Tobin being a fallible third party, this is true. However, Tobin is a member of the crew of the Ravager so he has active knowledge of the ship, its history, and its owner - he isn't a completely ignorant speculating third-party. Added to this, Tobin is practically dead - why would he lie?



The rest of your post, very cool.

Then this brings up a few points that need to be addressed.

1)Where did tobin get this info from?
2)How do you know he is really telling the truth? Considering that an out of universe source never mentioned nihilus lifting a ship(the loading screen)
3) For how long has tobin been a crew of the ravager? For what we know, its mere hours or maybe a few days at most.
4)How do you know he is not exaggerating?
5)How do you know he is not speculating?
6)What actual credible source substantiates and back his claims?
7)And do prove that the MSG was still active at the time of his ships retrieval.

Let me substantiate point 3) with something else, i have lived in singapore for 8 years and i still do not know the complete history and every detail that took place in this shit hole for the last 200 years even though i have read countless books and visited so many museums.

The point is i actually had the resources to find out about this country that i currently live in, but even with all these resources i still do not know the exact circumstances and situation that this country had been the past centuries, this brings me to ask, did tobin have anything resource to allow him to know that the ship was lifted from the well? Or was he merely speculating?

Tobin even mentions that nihilus dragged a fleet out, but the funny thing is that we never see this fleet and the loading screen stated that the motive of retrieving the ravager was to escape malachor anyways, this really makes me question his credibilty.
Originally posted by Enyalus

The rest of your post, very cool. Thanks but you had better not been sarcastic


EDIT

BTW do you think zayne carrick from the comics is nihilus? Because the only time i will actually like nihilus is when he gets a proper backstory, further character development and some origins.

Thats why i really like characters like bane and vader, because of those 3 elements.

Seriously, nihilus already has the badass look, now he needs a proper backstory and development.

1) Don't know. Could be the ship's data banks. Could be Nihilus himself. Such a thing is difficult to randomly make up.
2) Again, the guy is basically dying, plus he's a colonel (military discipline and all). He doesn't have a reason to lie. Why would the writers of KOTOR II wish him to?
3) Tobin becomes a member of the crew after the Malachor incident, and after Visas becomes a member.
4) He mentions that he pulls his fleet out, too. That could be your exaggeration right there.
5) ...Where would he get a random idea to speculate such a thing from? Simple fact was it was shot down and disabled by Mandalorian guns over Malachor, crashed, Mass Shadows Generator activated, happens, now the Ravager is held together (for the most part - some parts of the ship were even open to space) and flying again. Fill in the blank, using what Tobin and the game developers wrote in.
6) You know that answer already.
7) Nope. :P Tobin says, "he tore it from the mass shadows." That's good enough for me.



The motive was to escape with his fleet (like any military commander's objective would be). Who is to say that he didn't?

Just focusing on the Ravager now - there's a bit of evidence that points to the fact that he did use the Force to pull it from the gravity well of Malachor V. There's zero evidence to suggest that he didn't. Thus, the smart thing to do is....



Nihilus definitely needs a backstory, but I sure as hell hope Zayne is not it. He's more helpless than most women in media are. In issue six of the first arc of KOTOR, when he's threatening to hunt down his masters - he seemed so badass. I was like, "Yeah! Go you." And then...25+ issues of more weakling garbage. It's really frustrating. If they make him Nihilus, he better become very badass, very soon. Given his relative tenderness towards Visas, and Lucien's close friendship with Q'Anilia, it could be that Lucien is Nihilus.

For the record, I like Bane much more as a character over Vader. He's so much more human and compelling.

Originally posted by Enyalus


1) Don't know. Could be the ship's data banks. Could be Nihilus himself. Such a thing is difficult to randomly make up.
Data banks? I thought the entire ship is battered to hell so why would the data banks be functioning in the first place? Or if there was one, who inputted the information there? Nihilus doesn't bother with these things.

And such things aren't hard to make up, any tom dick and harry can lie, make shit up and make it sound true.
Originally posted by Enyalus

2) Again, the guy is basically dying, plus he's a colonel (military discipline and all). He doesn't have a reason to lie. Why would the writers of KOTOR II wish him to?
That reason could simply be to intimidate the exile that his master is someone he is in awe off, besides how is anyone suppose to be that diciplined when dark side energies are ravaging your body driving you into madness.

Its like getting a simple injection and then exaggerating the pain caused by the needles penetration.
Originally posted by Enyalus

3) Tobin becomes a member of the crew after the Malachor incident, and after Visas becomes a member.
No he was not, anything to back this up? If he was already a crew after the malachor incident, then he would had never left the ship alive and would have been enslaved by nihilus.

Last i recall, he(or vaklu) stated that they "just allied themselves with the sith" during the events of kotor 2.
Originally posted by Enyalus

4) He mentions that he pulls his fleet out, too. That could be your exaggeration right there.
And this does catastrophic damage to his credibility.
Originally posted by Enyalus

5) ...Where would he get a random idea to speculate such a thing from? Simple fact was it was shot down and disabled by Mandalorian guns over Malachor, crashed, Mass Shadows Generator activated, happens, now the Ravager is held together (for the most part - some parts of the ship were even open to space) and flying again. Fill in the blank, using what Tobin and the game developers wrote in.
Maybe from the fact that he knew the ship was from malachor V in the first place and the fact that the extent of the ships damage led him to believe it was from the gravity well?
Originally posted by Enyalus

6) You know that answer already.
7) Nope. :P Tobin says, "he tore it from the mass shadows." That's good enough for me.
And "tore" is subjective, it could mean force was applied to have something "tore" out of its current position.

Like a brick being "tore" out from the bottom of the well.

Originally posted by Enyalus

The motive was to escape with his fleet (like any military commander's objective would be). Who is to say that he didn't? Who is to say he did? Why waste time lifting other damaged unworthy ships and build a fleet consisting of it which would so easily get destroyed by other military ships?
Originally posted by Enyalus

Just focusing on the Ravager now - there's a bit of evidence that points to the fact that he did use the Force to pull it from the gravity well of Malachor V. There's zero evidence to suggest that he didn't. Thus, the smart thing to do is.... Theres actually zero evidence to point out that he did use the force to pull out the ravager from the gravity well other than a statement from a fallible brainwashed third party character.

Once again, if he did actually pull out the ship via the force, the loading screen(an out of universe source) would have mentioned him doing so, yet ironically it didn't despite you claiming he did.


Originally posted by Enyalus

Nihilus definitely needs a backstory, but I sure as hell hope Zayne is not it. He's more helpless than most women in media are. In issue six of the first arc of KOTOR, when he's threatening to hunt down his masters - he seemed so badass. I was like, "Yeah! Go you." And then...25+ issues of more weakling garbage. It's really frustrating. If they make him Nihilus, he better become very badass, very soon. Given his relative tenderness towards Visas, and Lucien's close friendship with Q'Anilia, it could be that Lucien is Nihilus.

For the record, I like Bane much more as a character over Vader. He's so much more human and compelling. Now lucien being nihilus would be badass.

Thanks for not attacking me btw.

Originally posted by Gideon
Eh? Well, obviously Sidious is more evil. But why was he the greater threat to the Force?


I thought that Nilhius was a threat to the force itself, in addition to all life in the galaxy. The Jedi council wants to stop the Exile b/c it 'shows the death of the Force'. Traya wants to use the Exile to bring about aforementioned death. The Exile and Nilhius both were 'wounds in the force' which is why the Sith Lord was unable to drain the exile.

To the best of my knowledge, Palpatine never put the Force itself in danger, and only wanted to rule the galaxy, not eat it.

You people are beginning to turn me emo, one post at a time.

Throughout the years I've been here, I've posted billions upon billions of times why Palpatine is the "imbalance" in the Force, the guy who blunted Jedi sensitivity singlehandedly, why his identified as the dark side itself, yadda yadda, the Chosen One was born to stop him, not Nihilus, yadda yadda, he wants to apoethesize himself, yadda yadda, he wants to consume the entire universe into his consciousness, yadda yadda...

And you manage to somehow bypass it all?

Yes, but I've already asked you about that. You still haven't told me where it's said, if its your interuptation, or what.

Not to say that I don't believe you, only that I've only seen you say it, and never read a quote mentioning anything like it. Evidence would be sweet.

Originally posted by Gideon
You people are beginning to turn me emo, one post at a time.

Throughout the years I've been here, I've posted billions upon billions of times why Palpatine is the "imbalance" in the Force, the guy who blunted Jedi sensitivity singlehandedly, why his identified as the dark side itself, yadda yadda, the Chosen One was born to stop him, not Nihilus, yadda yadda, he wants to apoethesize himself, yadda yadda, he wants to consume the entire universe into his consciousness, yadda yadda...

And you manage to somehow bypass it all?

Palpatine was definately the darker presence. As you've said/posted ad infinitum, it took the Chosen One to defeat him. His threat, however, was in the form of domination, rather than destruction. He wanted to control the entire galaxy (I don't have a quote about the consume the entire universe thing), but that would leave the galaxy/universe intact to rule over. Nihlius would just destroy everything. Sorry if I didn't understand Palpatine's goals, but I always thought he wanted dominion, not destruction, of other life.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Palpatine was definately the darker presence. As you've said/posted ad infinitum, it took the Chosen One to defeat him. His threat, however, was in the form of domination, rather than destruction. He wanted to control the entire galaxy (I don't have a quote about the consume the entire universe thing), but that would leave the galaxy/universe intact to rule over. Nihlius would just destroy everything. Sorry if I didn't understand Palpatine's goals, but I always thought he wanted dominion, not destruction, of other life.

That's just it. In Palpatine's mind, absorbing the universe into his consciousness is the ultimate form of domination.

Lol at Ivalice. Dude, you've already conceided the point against me, your not allowed to argue it again. It's not quite cricket wot, wot dastard and so forth.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Yeah, it pretty much is. How does one decide who would win in a contest of two combatants? They debate each person's skills, techniques, cunning, etc - see how they compare, and then arrive and what we hope will be a sound conclusion. Revan's skills and techniques aren't known. All we have is speculation.

I could pit Revan vs. Bergruutfa Clan (a group of Jedi younglings), say the team wins, and you wouldn't - logically - be able to refute it.
I wouldn't do that. No worries ; )

Your points are valid Enyalus and I apologize for not stating specific feats for Revan. I did not want to state what has already been stated so many times on these threads concerning Revan. There are statements and feats to let us know that Revan was indeed a powerful Sith Lord.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Not true. I'm a fan of any great strategist. From Revan to Thrawn to Shedao to Pellaeon. And based on his philosophies, especially as Darth Revan - he seems very cool. But I'm not going to freely call him one of the greatest Sith Lords ever, because there isn't any evidence to suggest it.

Ok, I apologize.


Originally posted by Enyalus

Based on what?

Here is a quote from AC Styles that explains why Revan can be included in the list.

"quote:
- Kreia saying it was as if looking into the heart of the force

- Jolee literally seeing the force swirl around him

- Ajunta Pal said Revans power was "blinding" to him, and that he bristled with the force.

- He being called a prodigy by Vandar at the end of KOTOR, and a prodigy as a knight before the mind wipe

- Having the most complete knowledge of the Dark Side of the force that is second only too Palpatine that we know of

- Had the most advanced, highly developed form of Battle Precognition that allowed him to see the outcome of battles months into the future. (Anther thing that puts him above Darth Caedus whose only precognition failed him and lured him into the clutches of Lumiya)

- Having his name be synonymous with power

- Bastila was literally feeling overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of his power

- His force mastery that surpasses Caedus whom himself surpassed Vader in terms of force power, who is you know 80% of Darth f*cking Sidious

- Him ripping through the Star Forges defense that were called a match for any Jedi, then beating Bastilla multiple times while she was being constantly revived and amped up by the Star Forge, THEN proceeding to beat Malak at least 2 times in a row while he was empowered by the Star Forge and revived by the life force of dead Jedi.

- Surviving and not being broken by the Dark Side power of Malachor (a PLANET full of raw Dark Side energy, which Kreia was broken by)

- His force bonding ability that he used en mass on his followers according to Kreia

- During his start as Dark Lord the chronicles say his dark power was "tremendous" and only continued to grow, then in KOTOR he's stated as being stronger then he EVER was as the Dark Lord.

- Revan using force storms to slaughter Rataka scouting parties on Lehon

- He slaughters the Sith Academy by himself (showed in KOTOR1, confirmed by Kreia in KOTOR 2)

- His holocron alone was enough in itself to turn Bane from a neophyte to a very dangerous, very powerful Dark Lord

- Sion, the mans whos pull on the force is so strong it holds his dead body together through sheer hate, admits to being his inferiority to Revan, he even goes as far as to give him the honorific "Lord" when he speaks of him, something he DOESN'T do for his current master or any of his peers"

There was more to his quote but I believe what is stated above is enough. Also I will add this feat: Revan could not understand the Rakatan language, he was able to use a Force technique to rip it from their minds, driving Basic into their skulls in turn through a unique force power.

Revan after he defeated Malak could have took over the Sith or Jedi and rule the Republic if he had chose to stay. In a sense Revan could have done what Sidious did years later. I do not know what other Sith or Jedi you can say had that choice and chose not to take it.

That is what I base my selection of Revan on.

Well Kreia and Nihilus lol, all though gameplay wise if u look at KOTOR 2 then Kreia and Vrook.

Ooh, I like your points, KOTOR3. I have three questions conerning them:

Having the most complete knowledge of the Dark Side of the force that is second only too Palpatine that we know of

Since he wrote his books and made a holocron, shouldn't someone assume that if one masters the knowledge in his holocron and books, they would have the same level of knowledge Revan had prior to his departing for the Unknown Regions?

His force mastery that surpasses Caedus whom himself surpassed Vader in terms of force power, who is you know 80% of Darth f*cking Sidious

Erm...how do we know his Force Mastery surpassed that of Darth Caedus? Is it stated somewhere?

ere is a quote from AC Styles that explains why Revan can be included in the list.

Pardon my ignorance here - the name isn't familiar - who is AC Styles? lol

Originally posted by Enyalus
Ooh, I like your points, KOTOR3. I have three questions conerning them:

Originally posted by Enyalus

Having the most complete knowledge of the Dark Side of the force that is second only too Palpatine that we know of

Since he wrote his books and made a holocron, shouldn't someone assume that if one masters the knowledge in his holocron and books, they would have the same level of knowledge Revan had prior to his departing for the Unknown Regions?

That is assuming that Revan included all of his knowledge in the holocron. Also we know that Bane did not attempt to learn or execute all of the techniques he found in Revan's holocron.

Originally posted by Enyalus

His force mastery that surpasses Caedus whom himself surpassed Vader in terms of force power, who is you know 80% of Darth f*cking Sidious

Erm...how do we know his Force Mastery surpassed that of Darth Caedus? Is it stated somewhere?

Not that I am aware of. Neither is it stated for Exar Kun, Bane, etc. This conclusion I believe is draw from what knowledge we know that Revan acquired or had access to in comparison to what Caedus had access to. If you need more specifics then let me know and I will try to get them for you. I believe you already know what Revan had access to, in order to gain his knowledge of the dark side.

I have a question for you, do you believe Caedus mastery of the force was greater than Bane? If not then it would make sense that Revan's would be greater.

Originally posted by Enyalus

ere is a quote from AC Styles that explains why Revan can be included in the list.

Pardon my ignorance here - the name isn't familiar - who is AC Styles? lol

No problem I should have been more specific. He is a member like you and me who brought up some good points concerning Revan is one on my previous threads.