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Possibly the most emotional and dramatic beef in hip-hop history.

Who of them do you side with, and why?

Personally, I side with 2Pac. He was the wiser of the two, and not only was it Biggie that searched conflict, he lied about 2Pac.

But respect to both of them.

R.I.P., Titans of Hip-Hop

One thing that always amazed me about Tupac was how he was able to record 50 albums and make 20 movies after he was dead.

For posthumous accomplishments from the grave, I give my vote to him.

I don't care about either of them- they didn't achieve very much if you ask me...nothing that will be remembered in a few hundred years.

Botankus, 2Pac is probably alive somehow. He said he wanted to drop his fame and become a gangster again shortly before his death. How could he avoid the public eye? By dying. I think he faked his death, and is now a gangster on the streets. If that's true, 2Pac is the most real rapper to ever live.

Grand-Moff-Gav, WTF? Even if you don't care about them, their beef is so dramatic. Who can't love it?

Biggie was a better rapper in my opinion. I kinda agree with GB though, they probably will be remembered though.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Biggie was a better rapper in my opinion. I kinda agree with GB though, they probably will be remembered though.

They are around even lyrically, yes, but I just think 2Pac had a more musical feeling to him.

Strangely enough, his best song, Ghetto Gospel, came out AFTER his death. Maybe, I think so because Eminem is my favourite producer...?

Biggie was a better rapper

Tupac is dead

rap beefs are childish and stupid

neither of them hold a candle to Immortal Technique, but they will probably be remembered and he wont

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I don't care about either of them- they didn't achieve very much if you ask me...nothing that will be remembered in a few hundred years. Yup, both overrated.

MISC FORUM!!!!

Originally posted by xxxJacob
Botankus, 2Pac is probably alive somehow. He said he wanted to drop his fame and become a gangster again shortly before his death. How could he avoid the public eye? By dying. I think he faked his death, and is now a gangster on the streets. If that's true, 2Pac is the most real rapper to ever live.

Grand-Moff-Gav, WTF? Even if you don't care about them, their beef is so dramatic. Who can't love it?

Hahahah

"become a gangster again"

Yes yes, quite so he was often rolling with Al Capone and the Dons wasn't he...I think the term you are looking for is "Street Thug".

As for the "rap beef" how stupid- the beefs on Eastenders are far more entertaining- and less fictitious.

and really, how many more young black artists need to be shot for posterity

Originally posted by inimalist
and really, how many more young black artists need to be shot for posterity

Lil Wayne shot himself right before he signed with Cash Money (I want to say he was 12 years old); only time he's ever been shot and yet on every mixtape he manages to mention how he "got shot."

It's all "entertainment" anyway.

Originally posted by chithappens
Lil Wayne shot himself right before he signed with Cash Money (I want to say he was 12 years old); only time he's ever been shot and yet on every mixtape he manages to mention how he "got shot."


omfg

you're kidding me?

Originally posted by inimalist
Biggie was a better rapper

Tupac is dead

rap beefs are childish and stupid

neither of them hold a candle to Immortal Technique, but they will probably be remembered and he wont

No one forgets Immortal Technique?
One of the best lyricists ever, only surpassed by Rakim.

Originally posted by xxxJacob
No one forgets Immortal Technique?
One of the best lyricists ever, only surpassed by Rakim.

lol, most people I meet know fiddy, but have never heard dance with the devil or peruvian cocaine.

Rakim is good, I'm more partial to IT, and there is always ODB. who is better than ODB?

Originally posted by inimalist
Biggie was a better rapper



LOL ini agrees with me.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL ini agrees with me.

a broken clock is right twice a day

lol, it can't be the first time...

I have been listening to Lil Wayne since that era when No Limit and Cash Money Records were on the scene (so basically New Orleans was the Southern base of hip hop in the late 90s). For whatever reason, Wayne's fans don't remember this.

I can't find a link (frankly, it's not important enough to my life but if you take five minutes you should find it) but basically his dad left a gun out and he didn't know what he was doing and shot himself. Wayne's dad got charged for some sort of negligence for not having the gun put away.

Lil Wayne was signed to Cash Money at the age of 14 but he always talks about selling dope while also mentioning that Mannie Fresh and Baby always took care of him... hardly anything rappers say is true but that's the role they have to play to keep the money coming.

Edit: From one of my blogs titled: Step #1 To Saving Hip Hop

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, most people I meet know fiddy, but have never heard dance with the devil or peruvian cocaine.

Rakim is good, I'm more partial to IT, and there is always ODB. who is better than ODB?

Rakim and Immortal Technique might be the best lyricist, but I actually prefer rap with a musical tone to it.

Like:

2Pac - Ghetto Gospel ft. Elton John
50 Cent - Hate it or Love it ft. The Game
Eminem - Cleanin' Out My Closet
Soulja Boy - Crank Dat (Travis Barker remix) ft. Travis Barker

Originally posted by xxxJacob
Rakim and Immortal Technique might be the best lyricist, but I actually prefer rap with a musical tone to it.

Like:

2Pac - Ghetto Gospel ft. Elton John
50 Cent - Hate it or Love it ft. The Game
Eminem - Cleanin' Out My Closet
Soulja Boy - Crank Dat (Travis Barker remix) ft. Travis Barker

Why is Soulja Boy next to Eminem?

Originally posted by chithappens
I have been listening to Lil Wayne since that era when No Limit and Cash Money Records were on the scene (so basically New Orleans was the Southern base of hip hop in the late 90s). For whatever reason, Wayne's fans don't remember this.

I can't find a link (frankly, it's not important enough to my life but if you take five minutes you should find it) but basically his had left a gun out and he didn't know what he was doing and shot himself. Wayne's dad got charged for some sort of negligence for not having the gun put away.

Lil Wayne was signed to Cash Money at the age of 14 but he always talks about selling dope while also mentioning that Mannie Fresh and Baby always took care of him... hardly anything rappers say is true but that's the role they have to play to keep the money coming.

lol, i looked it up on Wiki after you mentioned it, so weak

and, its not even the black community that supports the thug life rap image. In a lot of ways, its well to do white people who like this image of blacks, and are so far removed from actual poverty that the ghetto becomes a cool image thing. I'm probably off on this, but I've heard some music people talk about it before. Man, like rap is so bad ass sometimes, there is just so much terrible shit made.

Slick Rick rocks

Originally posted by chithappens
Why is Soulja Boy next to Eminem?

Normally, Soulja Boy sucks. However, I don't like how much hate he is receiving. He is 17 years old and rich. People should respect him.

But yes, his music is terrible. But the Travis Barker remix of Crank Dat is absolutely epic at parties.

Originally posted by inimalist
a broken clock is right twice a day

lol, it can't be the first time...

LOL didnt think we would have the same taste in rap music. Everybody keeps going on about 2pac I don't see what the big deal is. I agree Rakim is a good rapper as well. My favourite rapper though is GZA from Wu Tang, much better than 2pac and doesnt get as much props.

Originally posted by xxxJacob
Rakim and Immortal Technique might be the best lyricist, but I actually prefer rap with a musical tone to it.

Like:

2Pac - Ghetto Gospel ft. Elton John
50 Cent - Hate it or Love it ft. The Game
Eminem - Cleanin' Out My Closet
Soulja Boy - Crank Dat (Travis Barker remix) ft. Travis Barker

I'm really not a Tupac fan, nor 50 cent (though some Game tracks I like). I really only like Eminem from Slim Shady LP and Infinite, some Marshal Mathers stuff, but his stuff has gone to pop for me. I don't know who Soulja boy is, is he new? I don't listen to rap anymore really.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL didnt think we would have the same taste in rap music. Everybody keeps going on about 2pac I don't see what the big deal is. I agree Rakim is a good rapper as well. My favourite rapper though is GZA from Wu Tang, much better than 2pac and doesnt get as much props.

lol, I'm not really that into rap, I just totally agree with you, Tupac sucks. I think he is really overrated, especially that he is compared to biggie.

Wu Tang is phenomenal, I love Method Man

Originally posted by xxxJacob
He is 17 years old and rich. People should respect him.


For what?

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm really not a Tupac fan, nor 50 cent (though some Game tracks I like). I really only like Eminem from Slim Shady LP and Infinite, some Marshal Mathers stuff, but his stuff has gone to pop for me. I don't know who Soulja boy is, is he new? I don't listen to rap anymore really.

Ehm... Soulja Boy is the rapper behind "Crank Dat". He became very popular in 2007, but many blames him for killing hip-hop with his unintelligent lyrics. Yeah, he isn't the best rapper, but the Travis Barker remix of Crank Dat rocks... Literally.

I don't really like the Infinite album form Eminem. The lyrical quality was good, however, the only track that was well-produced was "Infinite". It's great listening to it in the morning. I don't remember from which album the Eminem songs came, as they got similiar names, but I know Eminem made many good songs, such as Cleanin' Out My Closet, Stan, Mockingbird, The Way I Am, When I'm Gone, etc.

Yeah, The Game rules. Have you heard his two new singles? My Life and Dope Boyz. There was more, but these two are truely epic. However, the Lil Wayne chorus in My Life is just too cheesy...

As for 50 Cent, I understand you don't like him. But even through he lacks lyrics, his past and voice is just hardcore, as well as his productions. He also made "Power of the Dollar", one of my favourite raps ever.

Originally posted by chithappens
For what?

At an age of 17, he has made more money than many of us will make in our lifetime?

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, i looked it up on Wiki after you mentioned it, so weak

and, its not even the black community that supports the thug life rap image. In a lot of ways, its well to do white people who like this image of blacks, and are so far removed from actual poverty that the ghetto becomes a cool image thing. I'm probably off on this, but I've heard some music people talk about it before. Man, like rap is so bad ass sometimes, there is just so much terrible shit made.

Slick Rick rocks

I'm a public state university and white people bump some of the craziest hip hop out there while looking at me crazy. Black people are just as bad about talking about how hard is to be black on Facebook. THEY ARE ON FREAKING FACEBOOK TALKING ABOUT HOW HARD IT IS TO BE BLACK! Sigh, sorry. Just pisses me off.

The whole thing with image is odd cause most black people assume all white people are at least "well off." Poor whites just do not exist in mainstream media so they think that's how it works.

And yes, Slick Rick is bad ass. Tupac just scares people into liking him. Don't get me wrong, Tupac is a cool lyrcist but there are better. My favorite Biggie song is "Suicidal Thoughts."

First part of "Suicidal Thoughts":

"When I die, **** it I wanna go to hell
Cause I'm a piece of shit, it ain't hard to ****in' tell
It don't make sense, goin' to heaven wit the goodie-goodies
Dressed in white, I like black Tims and black hoodies
God will probably have me on some real strict shit
No sleepin' all day, no gettin my dick licked
Hangin' with the goodie-goodies loungin' in paradise
**** that shit, I wanna tote guns and shoot dice"

Originally posted by xxxJacob
At an age of 17, he has made more money than many of us will make in our lifetime?

What the hell does that have to do with respect? I can pull some gimmick shit like that and become rich.

I respect people for how they live life, not for what they own.

Biggie is a godly lyricist, indeed. He was maybe a better lyricist than 2Pac, but 2Pac had more musical understanding.

Originally posted by chithappens
What the hell does that have to do with respect? I can pull some gimmick shit like that and become rich.

I respect people for how they live life, not for what they own.

He lives for money, he earns money. Not even 25% through his life, and Souljah Boy reached his goal.

Originally posted by xxxJacob
Ehm... Soulja Boy is the rapper behind "Crank Dat". He became very popular in 2007, but many blames him for killing hip-hop with his unintelligent lyrics. Yeah, he isn't the best rapper, but the Travis Barker remix of Crank Dat rocks... Literally.

I don't really like the Infinite album form Eminem. The lyrical quality was good, however, the only track that was well-produced was "Infinite". It's great listening to it in the morning. I don't remember from which album the Eminem songs came, as they got similiar names, but I know Eminem made many good songs, such as Cleanin' Out My Closet, Stan, Mockingbird, The Way I Am, When I'm Gone, etc.

Yeah, The Game rules. Have you heard his two new singles? My Life and Dope Boyz. There was more, but these two are truely epic. However, the Lil Wayne chorus in My Life is just too cheesy...

As for 50 Cent, I understand you don't like him. But even through he lacks lyrics, his past and voice is just hardcore, as well as his productions. He also made "Power of the Dollar", one of my favourite raps ever.

Soulja Boy would be fine with me if he was just making dance songs, but "Crank Dat" is about cumming on a girl's back while she is sleep and putting the sheets on her back so it sticks when she wakes up...

Eminem is crazy underrated but he goes over people's head a lot.

The Game is decent and he is the only one on the West Coast doing anything right now so big up to him.

What about 50 Cent's past is hardcore? The getting shot thing? I'm sure you have seen pictures of him with his shirt off - show me a bullet wound...

Originally posted by xxxJacob
He lives for money, he earns money. Not even 25% through his life, and Souljah Boy reached his goal.

What is to be respected about that? It's money. Monkeys can earn money.

And he is a rich black man in the 21st century so he is about 55% through with his life.

Originally posted by xxxJacob
Possibly the most emotional and dramatic beef in hip-hop history.

Who of them do you side with, and why?

Personally, I side with 2Pac. He was the wiser of the two, and not only was it Biggie that searched conflict, he lied about 2Pac.

But respect to both of them.

R.I.P., Titans of Hip-Hop

Pac lied about Big too. War involves deception.

But that's a damn good question.

2Pac was the Elvis of Rap and Biggie was the (early) Mike Tyson of rap. Like you said they both were Titans.

They were both sick, lyrically. Both carried dope beats. Both were young and had bright futures ahead of them individually, they influenced he game more than any other single rapper there ever was. Theirs was definitely the greatest hip-hop rivalry in rap history. Biggie was more about the ladies and Pac was more about his boys and enemies. Pac was revolutionary while big was the more capitalist of the two.

They were both masters. They were the perfect rappers, overall. (fcuk 50c)

But I can't decide. I never have and i don't think i ever will. I've tried picking but i always find something that Pac's better than Biggie at and vise versa.

Every once in a while i always wonder what would the game be like if they were still alive right now. Would there've ever been a 50c., a JaRule, a Nelly or crunk music or maybe even an Eminem? Dunno. I know we'll never find out, though.

I really stopped listening to rap since the time they've passed. But alot of these corny rappers think they got a pass now and think they can do w/e they want and unbeknownst to them all they're doing is watering down the game. Just like Jada Kiss said: "Had Big and Pac still've been alive, most of these rappers out here now would be behind a fast food counter asking if they could take your order." The current state that hip hop's in is unacceptable. Pac would've especially said something about it.

But anyway I'm with both.

Originally posted by chithappens
Soulja Boy would be fine with me if he was just making dance songs, but "Crank Dat" is about cumming on a girl's back while she is sleep and putting the sheets on her back so it sticks when she wakes up...

Eminem is crazy underrated but he goes over people's head a lot.

The Game is decent and he is the only one on the West Coast doing anything right now so big up to him.

What about 50 Cent's past is hardcore? The getting shot thing? I'm sure you have seen pictures of him with his shirt off - show me a bullet wound...

Nope, Crank Dat is just a mere party song. Where did you hear otherwise?

The Game is not decent, he is brilliant.

And 50 Cent just got an all around cool story.

Originally posted by xxxJacob
Nope, Crank Dat is just a mere party song. Where did you hear otherwise?


Superman a Ho (Urban Dictionary)

Originally posted by chithappens
Superman a Ho (Urban Dictionary)

HAHAHA! Soulja Boy just became 10 times as cool in my eyes now!

Originally posted by xxxJacob
Normally, Soulja Boy sucks. However, I don't like how much hate he is receiving. He is 17 years old and rich. People should respect him.

But yes, his music is terrible. But the Travis Barker remix of Crank Dat is absolutely epic at parties.

What a stupid thing to say.

Originally posted by xxxJacob
Ehm... Soulja Boy is the rapper behind "Crank Dat". He became very popular in 2007, but many blames him for killing hip-hop with his unintelligent lyrics. Yeah, he isn't the best rapper, but the Travis Barker remix of Crank Dat rocks... Literally.

ya, never heard it...

and if its unintelligent, I can't imagine liking it

Originally posted by xxxJacob
I don't really like the Infinite album form Eminem. The lyrical quality was good, however, the only track that was well-produced was "Infinite". It's great listening to it in the morning. I don't remember from which album the Eminem songs came, as they got similiar names, but I know Eminem made many good songs, such as Cleanin' Out My Closet, Stan, Mockingbird, The Way I Am, When I'm Gone, etc.

wow, thats unfortunate man, I think Infinite shows his potential, and Slim Shady is just insane. The stuff you are talking about is from Marshal Mathers and later, which is good, just, I don't know, he doesn't need it as bad.

Originally posted by xxxJacob
Yeah, The Game rules. Have you heard his two new singles? My Life and Dope Boyz. There was more, but these two are truely epic. However, the Lil Wayne chorus in My Life is just too cheesy...

no, I haven't heard anything after Doctor's Advocate

Originally posted by xxxJacob
As for 50 Cent, I understand you don't like him. But even through he lacks lyrics, his past and voice is just hardcore, as well as his productions. He also made "Power of the Dollar", one of my favourite raps ever.

its his voice that really makes me dislike it. The image is retarded as well. Its really not hard to sell drugs and get shot. Like really, probably the easiest thing in the world.

And why should we be idolizing people like that anyways? Scientists make modest wages and get almost no public attention, but some black thug who is destroying his own communities for profit and over turf and gets shot because he is some bad ass drug dealer is a millionaire and has posters in the rooms of kids all over the world?

Originally posted by chithappens
I'm a public state university and white people bump some of the craziest hip hop out there while looking at me crazy. Black people are just as bad about talking about how hard is to be black on Facebook. THEY ARE ON FREAKING FACEBOOK TALKING ABOUT HOW HARD IT IS TO BE BLACK! Sigh, sorry. Just pisses me off.

fair enough, not too much of a black community where I'm from, so I really only see the white kids who love the hip hop. And, I'm not going to say anything about how hard it is to be black... lol

Originally posted by chithappens
The whole thing with image is odd cause most black people assume all white people are at least "well off." Poor whites just do not exist in mainstream media so they think that's how it works.

totally man, there are such crazy images that people like. I think its just a comforting thing for people with money to think like that, be they from any racial background. It gives narratives and scapegoats that, i don't know, make people feel more secure in a crazy, unpredictable world. "I'm not like that, it could never happen to me"

Originally posted by chithappens
And yes, Slick Rick is bad ass. Tupac just scares people into liking him. Don't get me wrong, Tupac is a cool lyrcist but there are better. My favorite Biggie song is "Suicidal Thoughts."

First part of "Suicidal Thoughts":

"When I die, **** it I wanna go to hell
Cause I'm a piece of shit, it ain't hard to ****in' tell
It don't make sense, goin' to heaven wit the goodie-goodies
Dressed in white, I like black Tims and black hoodies
God will probably have me on some real strict shit
No sleepin' all day, no gettin my dick licked
Hangin' with the goodie-goodies loungin' in paradise
**** that shit, I wanna tote guns and shoot dice"

****, I hear you man. Such a good track

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Every once in a while i always wonder what would the game be like if they were still alive right now. Would there've ever been a 50c., a JaRule, a Nelly or crunk music or maybe even an Eminem? Dunno. I know we'll never find out, though.

Eminem, probably, I think he holds his own with the best. period.

Though, I bet his stuff would still be cutting edge if he had to compete with BIG and pac

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, I'm not really that into rap, I just totally agree with you, Tupac sucks. I think he is really overrated, especially that he is compared to biggie.

Nah im not into that much anymore im more into alternative now.


Originally posted by inimalist

Wu Tang is phenomenal, I love Method Man

Dunno about now though.



Originally posted by chithappens
I'm a public state university and white people bump some of the craziest hip hop out there while looking at me crazy. Black people are just as bad about talking about how hard is to be black on Facebook. THEY ARE ON FREAKING FACEBOOK TALKING ABOUT HOW HARD IT IS TO BE BLACK! Sigh, sorry. Just pisses me off.

LMFAO. Obama b*tch, stop complaining!

Originally posted by chithappens

The whole thing with image is odd cause most black people assume all white people are at least "well off." Poor whites just do not exist in mainstream media so they think that's how it works.

I used to think that......


Originally posted by chithappens


"When I die, **** it I wanna go to hell
Cause I'm a piece of shit, it ain't hard to ****in' tell
It don't make sense, goin' to heaven wit the goodie-goodies
Dressed in white, I like black Tims and black hoodies
God will probably have me on some real strict shit
No sleepin' all day, no gettin my dick licked
Hangin' with the goodie-goodies loungin' in paradise
**** that shit, I wanna tote guns and shoot dice"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwAzkJs7DaA

Yyyyyyeah baby!!!! *dances*

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Nah im not into that much anymore im more into alternative now.

haha, I went more from rap into experimental electronic music

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Dunno about now though.

last album of his I heard was Meth and Red's blackout. so ya, no idea what he is doing now

Had to do it:

Totally Off Base

But it's so damn cool!

Originally posted by chithappens
Had to do it:

Totally Off Base

But it's so damn cool!

hahahahahahahha!!!!! F*king hilarious!

Vanilla Ice ftw

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Vanilla Ice ftw

Get out.

Originally posted by inimalist


Eminem, probably, I think he holds his own with the best. period.

Though, I bet his stuff would still be cutting edge if he had to compete with BIG and pac

Easily. People miss how intricate Eminem got cause of how crazy the concrete imagery was. In the words of Jay Z:

"The game's ****ed up
Nigga's beats is bangin, nigga your hooks did it
Your lyrics didn't, your gangster look did it
So I would write it if y'all could get it
Being intricate, I guess you would critic"

*I had to do mad revision on these lyrics. OMFG that was terrible LOL.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Vanilla Ice ftw

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Get out.

Now

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
hahahahahahahha!!!!! F*king hilarious!

Yeah, at the same time I'm getting repressed memories from playing that game... the first game was so damn hard at six years old

Edit: I was 4... Haha I'm so young

Originally posted by chithappens
Easily. People miss how intricate Eminem got cause of how crazy the concrete imagery was. In the words of Jay Z:

"The game's ****ed up
Nigga's beats is bangin, nigga your hooks did it
Your lyrics didn't, your gangster look did it
So I would write it if y'all could get it
Being intricate, I guess you would critic"

*I had to do mad revision on these lyrics. OMFG that was terrible LOL.

Yeah I rate Eminem hes truly a rapper who deserves to be famous, but I suspect even for some people they just listen to him because hes white and not actually appreciate how good he is.

Way off base, but I like this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gepNUSNTbT0

*sigh* was supposed to do loads of work today....just not happening

Originally posted by Phantom Zone


Way off base, but I like this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gepNUSNTbT0

*sigh* was supposed to do loads of work today....just not happening

Yeah, I'm writing a short story and studying Japanese while on the forums .

By the way that link scared the hell out of me cause I had the light kinda dim. Not a great idea for me but cool music.

This is my personal theme music for bitches when I have my imaginary mohawk out with my boombox on my shoulders:

Rock And Roll!

Originally posted by chithappens
Yeah, I'm writing a short story and studying Japanese while on the forums . !

I give up on work, think i'll start again tommorrow... *sigh*

Originally posted by chithappens

By the way that link scared the hell out of me cause I had the light kinda dim. Not a great idea for me but cool music.

haha I love that shit.

Originally posted by chithappens

This is my personal theme music for bitches when I have my imaginary mohawk out with my boombox on my shoulders:

Rock And Roll!

Thats alright but its too kinda mellow for me.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone



Thats alright but its too kinda mellow for me.

Here you go

Edit: or this Hells Yeah!

Originally posted by chithappens
Here you go


Yeah thats cool. Yeah I like mellow stuff as well though, just depends on the mood I guess.

Shit have you heard of Stout from Washington DC??!! Im trying to get a link it mixes rap with hardcore punk......sick stuff.

Originally posted by chithappens
Had to do it:

Totally Off Base

But it's so damn cool!

Because you posted that, I was just playing sonic online...

Wow i've missed it...best game ever.

Here you go

http://www.myspace.com/stoutngmf

not sure if this is allowed but I aint selling nothing.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Here you go

http://www.myspace.com/stoutngmf

not sure if this is allowed but I aint selling nothing.

Seems pretty cool. I'm certainly interested in some of their other stuff. I'm a noob with it comes to stuff with newer bands.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Because you posted that, I was just playing sonic online...

Wow i've missed it...best game ever.

Honestly, it is way up there for me. They should keep doing this "new" side scrolling thing like Mega Man 9

Tupac was a ghetto prophet, a ghetto poverty. He wasn't fake and spoke the truth. He was a man with flaws like anyone else. But he spoke out on issues no one else would touch. Brenda had a baby, Thugz Mansion, Changes(how nothing will ever change in the ghetto and its a system) . It's all so ****ing real. As real as real is.


Watch this video its about him giving a speech and then he whores everyone at the press conference, its really quite brilliant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhC_s20LUk0

He wasn't liked today's rappers it wasn't about keeping an image. He was just doing him.

Him and Big left the model for future rappers to fill. even if they are doing it fake.

Neither of them were that great, very overrated.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Neither of them were that great, very overrated.

Get out. Ok so who do you consider to be great?

*Yawm*



Originally posted by Stealth Agent
Tupac was a ghetto prophet, a ghetto poverty. He wasn't fake and spoke the truth. He was a man with flaws like anyone else. But he spoke out on issues no one else would touch. Brenda had a baby, Thugz Mansion, Changes(how nothing will ever change in the ghetto and its a system) . It's all so ****ing real. As real as real is./B]

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Get out. Ok so who do you consider to be great?

Well, I like: All of Wu Tang Clan (particularly Method Man), MF Doom, Pharoahe Monch, Cunninlynguists and J5. There's a lot more I like as well, of course.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Get out. Ok so who do you consider to be great?

*Yawm*

i know right


but yeah i'm a tupac man. Biggie has good shi+ and i give him my artistic respect.

but biggie let his man get setup, at the same time he didn't set him up but he knew about it and didn't say a thing.

Which is why the beef between the two erupted. But biggie never struck back, at-least publicly. I think it's because he knew pac was legitametley right, b/c junior mafia wanted to put out a diss track but biggie said nah.

I don't know why pac was shot it could for one of a thousand things, he knew he was gonna die anyday that year.

But i do know biggie was shot simply because he was on the wrong coast. During the east coast west coast beef.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Well, I like: All of Wu Tang Clan (particularly Method Man),


Wow what I suprise! Everybody likes Wu tang. Thats like saying you like Manchester United.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

MF Doom, Pharoahe Monch, Cunninlynguists and J5. There's a lot more I like as well, of course.

Well ok Pharoahe Monch is good but I don't see how Method Man is leagues better than Biggie.

Originally posted by Stealth Agent
i know right


but yeah i'm a tupac man. Biggie has good shi+ and i give him my artistic respect.

but biggie let his man get setup, at the same time he didn't set him up but he knew about it and didn't say a thing.

Which is why the beef between the two erupted. But biggie never struck back, at-least publicly. I think it's because he knew pac was legitametley right, b/c junior mafia wanted to put out a diss track but biggie said nah.

I don't know why pac was shot it could for one of a thousand things, he knew he was gonna die anyday that year.

But i do know biggie was shot simply because he was on the wrong coast. During the east coast west coast beef.

Im sorry I just don't care. I don't think either of them were particulary nice people but I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wow what I suprise! Everybody likes Wu tang. Thats like saying you like Manchester United.



Well ok Pharoahe Monch is good but I don't see how Method Man is leagues better than Biggie.

Firstly, not everyone does like Wu Tang, I've met many people that don't.

Me saying that Biggie's overrated does not equate to everyone I mentioned being leagues better than him. That isn't what the word means.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wow what I suprise! Everybody likes Wu tang. Thats like saying you like Manchester United.



Well ok Pharoahe Monch is good but I don't see how Method Man is leagues better than Biggie.



Im sorry I just don't care. I don't think either of them were particulary nice people but I could be wrong.

i weren't saying they were nice, i was saying they were real. Both of them were ****ing murderers, and if they hadn't done it first hand they were atleast involved enough to be responsible.

Tupac knew how to keep a sense of humor despite how harsh shit was.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Firstly, not everyone does like Wu Tang, I've met many people that don't.

They are generally considered to be the best. Anyway maybe my experiences are different hell ive even heard people on the bus making a big deal about them.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

Me saying that Biggie's overrated does not equate to everyone I mentioned being leagues better than him. That isn't what the word means.

Ok gramps.

Originally posted by Stealth Agent
i weren't saying they were nice, i was saying they were real. Both of them were ****ing murderers, and if they hadn't done it first hand they were atleast involved enough to be responsible.

Yeah I know.

Originally posted by Stealth Agent

Tupac knew how to keep a sense of humor despite how harsh shit was.

*shrug* dont care.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok gramps.

I don't get how you think calling me gramps is some sort of get out of jail free card when you're debating.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I don't get how you think calling me gramps is some sort of get out of jail free card when you're debating.

No you just always sound grumpy. I edited my post.

I don't know how you rate who is the best. I can't tell anyone else what they should like but according to my taste they pretty much are.

I mean biggies "Ten Crack Commandments" anyone who's lived out a ghetto before knows how hard that shit is. Its like a landmark in gangster rap history, and there historical figures.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No you just always sound grumpy. I edited my post.

I can assure you that I'm not always grumpy.

As for hearing people making a big deal about Wu on the bus, so what? Are you actually arguing that Wu Tang are more overrated than Tupac and Biggie?

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I can assure you that I'm not always grumpy.

As for hearing people making a big deal about Wu on the bus, so what?


Yes yes but just in my perosnl experience its been wu tang wu tang!


Originally posted by chillmeistergen

Are you actually arguing that Wu Tang are more overrated than Tupac and Biggie?

Nah im just saying its not a big deal to like Wu tang because thats like saying you support Manchester United IMO. It doesnt neccesarily show good taste in hip hop.

However my point about Meth was that if you think Meth is good how can you really know whos overrated or not? Again Meth seems like an obvious answer and my opinion he was overated for awhile.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes yes but just in my perosnl experience its been wu tang wu tang!




Nah im just saying its not a big deal to like Wu tang because thats like saying you support Manchester United IMO. It doesnt neccesarily show good taste in hip hop.

However my point about Meth was that if you think Meth is good how can you really know whos overrated or not? Again Meth seems like an obvious answer and my opinion he was overated for awhile.

I disagree with Meth being overrated, I think he's been massively consistent and is a real talent. You seem to just really not like that Wu Tang Clan are popular. To say they're overrated though is just silly, in my opinion.

Also, you've only picked one of the artists/groups I've named to critique, how odd.

P.S - supporting Man U to me shows horrible taste in football.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Nah im just saying its not a big deal to like Wu tang because thats like saying you support Manchester United IMO. It doesnt neccesarily show good taste in hip hop.

However my point about Meth was that if you think Meth is good how can you really know whos overrated or not? Again Meth seems like an obvious answer and my opinion he was overated for awhile.

would you say similar things about Rza, Gza or ODB?

and no, from my memories, meth is not overrated.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I disagree with Meth being overrated, I think he's been massively consistent and is a real talent.

Why is he a massive talent give me examples of what makes him so talented? Because ive heard alot of verses and some of them arent shit at all.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

You seem to just really not like that Wu Tang Clan are popular. To say they're overrated though is just silly, in my opinion.

No you are missing the point. They are well respected and held in high-esteem in the hip hop community. Saying you like Wu tang does not neccesarily prove you know anything about hip hop, the same way somebody who didn't know anything about footbal might choose to support Man U to support because they seem to be the most succesful.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

Also, you've only picked one of the artists/groups I've named to critique, how odd.

Arent we discussing Wu tang as well? Didn't I mention Pharah Monche? The fact is you might like those other rappers but if you really think that Method Man is THAT good it leads me to believe you might listen to hip hop but you don't neccesarily know what makes a good rapper.


Originally posted by chillmeistergen

P.S - supporting Man U to me shows horrible taste in football.

I dont support Man U.

Originally posted by inimalist
would you say similar things about Rza, Gza or ODB?

Im not sure about RZA. GZA is underated. ODB isn't overated he had his time in ths sun like rappers do. GZA is one of the most talented rappers.

Originally posted by inimalist

and no, from my memories, meth is not overrated.

What makes somebody a good rapper then?

This whole discussion has turned into something very, very odd. You seem to be suggesting I know nothing about hip hop, because I like Wu Tang? Do you have any idea how many people suddenly started liking Biggie after his remixes started being played in clubs? Or how many people suddenly started liking Tupac because of that god awful Elton John remix.

Biggie and Tupac are pretty much the names that come out of the mouths of the lowest form of hip hop sheep. Wu Tang Clan most definitely aren't.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I don't care about either of them- they didn't achieve very much if you ask me...nothing that will be remembered in a few hundred years.

This guy said it best.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
This whole discussion has turned into something very, very odd. You seem to be suggesting I know nothing about hip hop, because I like Wu Tang? Do you have any idea how many people suddenly started liking Biggie after his remixes started being played in clubs? Or how many people suddenly started liking Tupac because of that god awful Elton John remix.

Biggie and Tupac are pretty much the names that come out of the mouths of the lowest form of hip hop sheep. Wu Tang Clan most definitely aren't.

I didn't say you didn't know anything. I said it does not NECCESARILY prove that because you like Wu Tang that you do....and I explained why.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What makes somebody a good rapper then?

whether or not I enjoy it?

like, are you implying that there is a objective way to rank art quality outside of subjective opinion?

Originally posted by inimalist
whether or not I enjoy it?

Er no.


Originally posted by inimalist

like, are you implying that there is a objective way to rank art quality outside of subjective opinion?

Yup you damn straight I am. I learn't how to rap and 'studied' it. Obvoulsy some of it is subjective but there are certain talents that make you a better rapper than another rapper. Anybody who is really passionately into hip hop will tell you that. Heres a quick summary:

1. Flowing (no rapping is not just talking)
2 Metaphors, similies and use of imagery.
3. Freestyling ( making up verses at the top of you head, the more coherent the verses are the better you are).

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yup you damn straight I am. I learn't how to rap and 'studied' it. Obvoulsy some of it is subjective but there are certain talents that make you a better rapper than another rapper. Anybody who is really passionately into hip hop will tell you that. Heres a quick summary:

1. Flowing (no rapping is not just talking)
2 Metaphors, similies and use of imagery.
3. Freestyling ( making up verses at the top of you head, the more coherent the verses are the better you are).

I really don't think that freestyling should be in that list. Also, going by your list, I think that MF Doom should be considered leagues above Biggie and Tupac.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yup you damn straight I am. I learn't how to rap and 'studied' it. Obvoulsy some of it is subjective but there are certain talents that make you a better rapper than another rapper. Anybody who is really passionately into hip hop will tell you that. Heres a quick summary:

1. Flowing (no rapping is not just talking)
2 Metaphors, similies and use of imagery.
3. Freestyling ( making up verses at the top of you head, the more coherent the verses are the better you are).

lol

good luck with that then

how does one quantify the level of flow in a rap song? what is the scale? what are the specific qualities of spoken word that make it flow as opposed to just talking?

People have tried to do this, with almost no success, in many other art forms. It is, imho, impossible to quantify these qualitative things.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Yup you damn straight I am. I learn't how to rap and 'studied' it. Obvoulsy some of it is subjective but there are certain talents that make you a better rapper than another rapper. Anybody who is really passionately into hip hop will tell you that. Heres a quick summary:

1. Flowing (no rapping is not just talking)
2 Metaphors, similies and use of imagery.
3. Freestyling ( making up verses at the top of you head, the more coherent the verses are the better you are).

Ah the complex science of Hip-Hop...

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I really don't think that freestyling should be in that list.

Its not an essential part of being a rapper but it makes you a better rapper. Its a respected skill. Its like a slam dunk. You don't need to do it but it likes the cherry on the icing.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

Also, going by your list, I think that MF Doom should be considered leagues above Biggie and Tupac.

To be fair ive never heard any MF Doom. I used to listen to alot of hip hop but not now.

Been a while since I listened to hip-hop music because all the stuff out now is plastic garbage, but the debate is one of hip-hop's biggest.

Biggie was great lyrically and he had alot of skill. But I rarely heard him touch on social issues or even have heart and depth when doing a "regular rap."



"My murderous lyrics equipped with spirits of the Thugs before me
Pay off the block evade the cops cause I know they comin for me
I been hesitant to reappear, been away for years
Now I'm back, my adversaries been reduced to tears
Question my methods to switch up speeds, sure as some b!tches bleeds
niggaz'll feel the fire of my mother's corrupted seed
Blast me but they didn't finish
didn't diminish my powers
so now I'm back to be a motherf*ckin menace, they cowards
That's why they tried to set me up
Had b!tch-@ss niggaz on my team, so indeed, they wet me up
But I'm back reincarnated, incarcerated
At the time I contemplate the way that God made it
Lace em with lyrics that's legendary, musical mercenary
For money, I'll have these motherf*ckers buried (I been)
gettin much mail in jail, niggaz tellin me to kill it
Knowin when I get out, they gon' feel it
Witness the realest, a who-ridah when I put the sh!t inside
the cry from all your people when they find her
Just remind ya, my history'll prove I been it
Revenge on them niggaz that played me,
and all the cowards that was down widdit
Now it's yo' nigga right beside ya
Hopin you listenin, catch you payin attention
to my ambitions as a ridah"

Tupac FTW.

I think they're both overrated, but "overrated" doesn't mean they're bad or that they sucked. They were both excellent rappers, and they're overrated in the sense that everyone and their mom automatically gives them respect by just hearing their names. I've never really cared for Biggie, but I've been a massive Pac fan since 2Pacalypse Now! dropped in '91, and I went to a concert of his in '95. What I love about Tupac is is his commanding voice, strongly West Coast beats, and his subject matter; things I can relate to in every way. As for Biggie, I really just didn't like what he talked about. "Juicy" and "Big Poppa" are catchy songs and good for parties, but in both he's basically just saying how cool he is. His one song that I really like though is "1970 Something".

Originally posted by inimalist

how does one quantify the level of flow in a rap song? what is the scale? what are the specific qualities of spoken word that make it flow as opposed to just talking?

I know from personal exprience its not just talking because when I first started rapping I became a laughing stock because everybody who heard my verses knew that it didn't flow...EVERYBODY. So I had to start listening to the music I started listening to the music and placing my words into the music.

The most important part of trying to flow is listening to the drumbeat. When you are creating a verse its like you can only fit in a certain amounts of words between a drumbeat, if you go over the limit then it starts to sound funny. Also the speed of the drumbeat can affect the length of your verse.

Ironically enough the better you are at rapping the more you sound like you are talking and some of the best rappers can rap without rhyming, when you first start out its very diffcult to do

Originally posted by inimalist

People have tried to do this, with almost no success, in many other art forms. It is, imho, impossible to quantify these qualitative things.


Obvosuly there is a level of subjectivity with this but thats with everything but like all skills there are basics you have to master. Its a bit hard to explain because I ahvent written verses in YEARS but when I was writing rhymes there was a structure that you had to adhere to to make it sound right.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
To be fair ive never heard any MF Doom. I used to listen to alot of hip hop but not now.

He's definitely worth checking out. I have Dangerdoom on the brain at the moment (Mf Doom and Danger Mouse's collaboration).

But yeah, Doom's flow is just awesome.

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Originally posted by chillmeistergen
He's definitely worth checking out. I have Dangerdoom on the brain at the moment (Mf Doom and Danger Mouse's collaboration).

To tell you the truth mate I just don't feel about it the way I used to, but you I intend to get back into some day I had alot of talent but never took it to its full extent... *sniff*

Originally posted by chillmeistergen

But yeah, Doom's flow is just awesome.

ZM7yVtd32LQ&feature=related

You don't have to know how to rap to appreciate flow but when you do you see it in a whole different light ( but maybe the reason why I was obessesed by it was because I was particularly bad at it...lol edit: was bad at it when i first started and had to work real hard to get it up to scratch). Yeah but flow is one of the best joys of listening to hip hop, when I first heard GZA rap I thought it was a miracle...lol.

edit: Yeah I heard some of it....thats exactly what the **** im talking about.

Wu-tang all them fools can rap, also its not what you say its how you say it like ol'dirty basted is one of my faviote rappers just cuz how he spits. And 2pac vs biggie the papers and sh** blew that up it was a beef between a few people not east vs west.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I don't care about either of them- they didn't achieve very much if you ask me...nothing that will be remembered in a few hundred years.



yeah, but neither does 98% of the human race

Originally posted by Stealth Agent
Tupac was a ghetto prophet, a ghetto poverty. He wasn't fake and spoke the truth. He was a man with flaws like anyone else. But he spoke out on issues no one else would touch. Brenda had a baby, Thugz Mansion, Changes(how nothing will ever change in the ghetto and its a system) . It's all so ****ing real. As real as real is.


Watch this video its about him giving a speech and then he whores everyone at the press conference, its really quite brilliant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhC_s20LUk0

He wasn't liked today's rappers it wasn't about keeping an image. He was just doing him.

Him and Big left the model for future rappers to fill. even if they are doing it fake.

Ummm, Tupac got "caught up" so to speak but he was just a regular dude. He never sold dope and he wasn't into actual thug appeal until well after his career began.

How you even seen Tupac Resurrection (movie)? Even seeing that will explain that it was mostly an image he portrayed.

Originally posted by Stealth Agent
i weren't saying they were nice, i was saying they were real. Both of them were ****ing murderers, and if they hadn't done it first hand they were atleast involved enough to be responsible.

Tupac knew how to keep a sense of humor despite how harsh shit was.

They were murderers? WTF are you talking? He's like the hip hop JIA.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I know from personal exprience its not just talking because when I first started rapping I became a laughing stock because everybody who heard my verses knew that it didn't flow...EVERYBODY. So I had to start listening to the music I started listening to the music and placing my words into the music.

The most important part of trying to flow is listening to the drumbeat. When you are creating a verse its like you can only fit in a certain amounts of words between a drumbeat, if you go over the limit then it starts to sound funny. Also the speed of the drumbeat can affect the length of your verse.

Ironically enough the better you are at rapping the more you sound like you are talking and some of the best rappers can rap without rhyming, when you first start out its very diffcult to do




Obvosuly there is a level of subjectivity with this but thats with everything but like all skills there are basics you have to master. Its a bit hard to explain because I ahvent written verses in YEARS but when I was writing rhymes there was a structure that you had to adhere to to make it sound right.

I mostly agree with this but I'm too lazy to nitpick right now

i think in terms of hype and influence the pac vs big beef was the biggest beef hip hop will ever see.

as far as who's the better rapper, biggie every day for me. tupac had some songs i like but overall he couldn't hold it down like big, and sure as hell couldn't make an album like him.

but biggie couldn't have won the beef. he didn't even really get a proper chance to respond.

but in terms of the best rap beef, i.e. rappers genuinely trying to lyrically decapitate eachother, it's nas vs jay any day for me. i mean when you get down to it biggie never really released a genuine response track to 'hit em up.' there was of course 'long kiss goodnight' which seems to point to a tupac diss track, but again he never once mentioned pac's name once and it was also released after pac's death, i believe. the fact that it was post-mortem might've caused him to revise it and remove pac's name,but then you have to think if he did that out of respect he'd have just removed the track altogether. not like the double album was at all short on general threats to un-named thugs. not that i have any problem with that..

my opinion is despite popular opinion jay won the nas/jay beef lyrically. nas seemed to have the support of the fans so that's how it goes, as far as the record goes nas won the beef. i could see how it could go either way, and i liked 'last real nigga alive,' but as far as i'm concerned jay's song 'blueprint 2' put a nail in that beef's coffin.

Also biggie put out who shoot yah song, as for the jay/nas beef jay was getting him at first but then nas drop eather and it was over.

just now read the actual thread beyond page 1Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yup you damn straight I am. I learn't how to rap and 'studied' it. Obvoulsy some of it is subjective but there are certain talents that make you a better rapper than another rapper. Anybody who is really passionately into hip hop will tell you that. Heres a quick summary:

1. Flowing (no rapping is not just talking)
2 Metaphors, similies and use of imagery.
3. Freestyling ( making up verses at the top of you head, the more coherent the verses are the better you are). i hear this way too often.

no, there is no objective criteria for ranking rap skill.

the fact that people seem to think there is a fool proof method of making quality rap is what seems to be holding back most of today's lyrically inclined aspiring artists cause they can't make it past redundant mixtape raps. the guys who don't give a **** about hip hop convention or lyricism are the ones blowing up cause they just make whatever sells. earlier artists were good at finding a balance, i.e. inserting impressive lyricism or flow into songs that SOUND GOOD and that people actually WANT TO HEAR. there are still a few doing so but not nearly enough.

if people didn't like you're flow what they are essentially saying is they didn't think you sounded very good, which is a subjective statement.

Originally posted by zbucsz
Also biggie put out who shoot yah song, as for the jay/nas beef jay was getting him at first but then nas drop eather and it was over. who shot ya wasn't a diss track.

and it wasn't over after ether. jay responed again with blueprint 2, and nas responded to that with another track, last real nigga alive. if nas felt the need to respond it couldn't have been over.

besides that, ether was a hot track, but jay went harder at him with takeover than nas did with ether. jay got way mre personal. nas dised jay-z's record label's name, his looks, him being in a karate cass, etc. jay shitted on nas's whole career, then threw in the fact that he ****ed his baby's mama, which was verified fact. game over as far as im concerned, but then after nas responded with ether, jay came back with blueprint 2 and focused more on nas being a fake revolutionary with inconsistent claims about his life and philosophies.

"Can't y'all, see that he's fake, the rap version of TD jakes
Prophesizing on your CDs and tapes
Won't break you a crumb of the little bit that he makes
And this is with whom you want to place your faith?
I put dollars on mine, ask Columbine
When the Twin Towers dropped, I was the first in line
Donating proceeds off every ticket sold
When I was out on the road, that's how you judge Hov, no?
Ain't I supposed to be absorbed myself?
Every time there's a tragedy, I'm the first one to help
They call me this misogynist, but they don't call me the dude
To take his dollars to give gifts at the projects
These dudes is all politics, depositing checks
they put in they pocket, all you get in return is a lot of lip
And y'all buy the shit, caught up in the hype
Cause the nigga wear a coofie, it don't mean that he bright
Cause you don't understand him, it don't mean that he nice
It just means you don't understand all the bullshit that he write
Is it "Oochie Wally Wally" or is it "One Mic"?
Is it "Black Girl Lost" or shorty owe you for ice?
I've been real all my life, they confuse it with conceit
Since I will not lose, they try to help him cheat
But I will not lose, for even in defeat
There's a valuable lesson learned, so it evens it up for me
When the grass is cut, the snakes will show
I gotta thank the little homie Nas for that though
Saving me the hassle of speaking to half of these assholes
And I'ma let karma catch up to Jaz-O, whoa
I'm back before you had a chance to miss me
My mama can't save you this time, niggas is history
Who you know flow vicious as me?
Yet so religiously, that's why they call me Hov
I get the spoils cause the victor is me (me, nigga)
You're an actor, you're not who you're depicted to be
You street dreamin, all y'all niggas living through me
I gave you life when niggas was forgetting you emcee
I'm a legend, you should take a picture with me
You should be happy to be in my presence, I should charge you a fee
I'm Big Dog, Glenn Rob, listen God you a flea
And the little homey Jungle is a garden to me
What's the problem B? You not as hard as me
Nigga hard as we, nigga R O C, nigga
That's why they follow me, they feel my pain and my agony, nigga
I won't rest till you on one knee
You want war then it's war's gonna be, nigga
Until you on one knee, you want war then it's war's gonna be, nigga
"

jay killed him with that shit. then nas came back with last real nigga alive which was a hot song but didn't really go at jay that hard.. mostly explained the circumstances and all that shit, talking about how when jay dissed him nas's mom was dieing.

Sadly, no one even understands what Jay was saying about Nas' career on anything of the songs. All they heard was Nas' name calling and he won based on that.

Originally posted by red g jacks
just now read the actual thread beyond page 1 i hear this way too often.

no, there is no objective criteria for ranking rap skill.


the fact that people seem to think there is a fool proof method of making quality rap is what seems to be holding back most of today's lyrically inclined aspiring artists cause they can't make it past redundant mixtape raps. the guys who don't give a **** about hip hop convention or lyricism are the ones blowing up cause they just make whatever sells. earlier artists were good at finding a balance, i.e. inserting impressive lyricism or flow into songs that SOUND GOOD and that people actually WANT TO HEAR. there are still a few doing so but not nearly enough.

I disagree to an extent. Rap is a skill that is learnt and like any other skill there are things you need to master in order to do it properly. If it is a skill then there is some objectvity to it. If we want to take it to extremes we could say everything is subjective.




Originally posted by red g jacks

if people didn't like you're flow what they are essentially saying is they didn't think you sounded very good, which is a subjective statement.


Im not saying that though. Im able to identify rappers that I don't like but I can recognise their skill, also there are some rappers that I like but I know are not very good eg Bone Thugs and Harmony they have a nice flow but thats it.

I don't know about you but I thought Common Senses flow was quite complicated I couldn't write rhymes like that and make it flow. Lets make a comparison. Lets compare Common Senses flow to Inspector Decks. ID (Inspector Deck) has a nice flow but since CS (Common Sense) flow is more complicated and unpredictable I would say in the flow department he is a better rapper. It has nothing to do with what I like I recognise the diffiuclty of what CS is doing and therefore I recognise his skill.

Lets take metaphor and similies. I'll agree that to an extent this is subjective but if you've heard Liquid Swords you will know that this was packed with some nice lyrics compare that to ....Puff Daddy. Now why for the love of god would I put Puff Daddy on the same level as GZA? Doesn't it to take imagination and hard work to create similies and wordplay? Why would I put a rapper who has mad similies and metaphors on the same level to somebody who has none?

I would also say that GZA in the metaphor and similie department is a better rapper than Meth. Ok you say that there is no objectivity but I could have sworn that Meth was using the same lyrics again. I dunno about you but if you lack imagination and you keep repeating lyrics then thats a minus.

I don't think freestyling is an essential part of being a good rapper but obvoulsy since its hard to do we recognise and respect it. If we were trying to score points for rappers a freestyling rapper would get a plus.

Originally posted by chithappens
Sadly, no one even understands what Jay was saying about Nas' career on anything of the songs. All they heard was Nas' name calling and he won based on that.

Last time I was into rap was 98 but as far as I know Nas has been going downhill from Illimatic. I find him very irritating.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I disagree to an extent. Rap is a skill that is learnt and like any other skill there are things you need to master in order to do it properly. If it is a skill then there is some objectvity to it. If we want to take it to extremes we could say everything is subjective. there is 'skill' involved but there is no objective means of judging that skill. i'll elaborate in the next parts of my post.







that's fine, but that's a statement which can't be backed beyond personal opinion. i can't even begin to imagine trying to break down a rap flow in an objective sense. if you can then feel free to school me. so far as i can see it all comes down to the sensibilities of the listener.

i personally feel that flow is a means to an ends - the ends being good sounding rap music. the better the song sounds the more i think the flow has served it's purpose, so a less complicated flow at times can be 'better' than a more complicated flow if it's more fitting to the beat.
so do we judge a good rap song simply by the pure number of similes and metaphors within the lyrics, or is it the quality of metaphors that defines a good lyric from a bad lyric?

keep in mind 'supaman dat hoe' is technically a metaphor.

if it's the quality of the metaphor that matters, then wouldn't you agree that all comes down to opinion?

i agree freestyling is hard and to be respected. also agreed that it's not essential. i'd argue it as a separate artform just to avoid confusion.

and even though that wasn't directed to me, i think nas has had his ups and downs. i wouldn't agree he's had a consistent decline. 'it was written' is his best album to me. but even after that i think he had ups and downs... 'god's son' was an up... 'hip hop is dead' was a down.

I didnt mean when i said it was over over,i mean when nas put out ether he killed jay. Just read what this fool says, i like jay-z but hes a swagger jacker he use too rap fast then he wanted to be like biggie and stole his style. still reasonable doubt is one of my fav cd's, he goes with the flyest chick, and even signed nas lol.



What's up niggas, ay yo, I know you ain't talkin 'bout me dog
You, what?
"**** Jay-Z"
You been on my dick nigga, you love my style, nigga
"**** Jay-Z"


(I) **** with your soul like ether
(Will) Teach you the king you know you
(Not) "God's son" across the belly
(Lose) I prove you lost already

Brace yourself for the main event
Y'all impatiently waitin
It's like an AIDS test, what's the results?
Not positive, who's the best? Pac, Nas and Big
Ain't no best, East, West, North, South, flossed out, greedy
I embrace y'all with napalm
Blows up, no guts, left chest, face gone
How could Nas be garbage?
Semi-autos at your cartilege
Burner at the side of your dome, come outta my throne
I got this, locked since '9-1
I am the truest, name a rapper that I ain't influenced
Gave y'all chapters but now I keep my eyes on the Judas
With Hawaiin Sophie fame, kept my name in his music
Check it

I've been ****ed over, left for dead, dissed and fogotten
Luck ran out, they hoped that I'd be gone, stiff and rotten
Y'all just piss on me, shit on me, spit on my grave (uh)
Talk about me, laugh behind my back but in my face
Y'all some "well wishers," friendly actin, envy hidin snakes
With your hands out for my money, man, how much can I take?
When these streets keep callin, heard it when I was sleep
That this Gay-Z and Cockafella Records wanted beef
Started cockin up my weapon, slowly loadin up this ammo
To explode it on a camel, and his soldiers, I can handle
This for dolo and it's manuscript, just sound stupid
When KRS already made an album called Blueprint
First, Biggie's ya man, then you got the nerve to say that you better than Big
Dick suckin lips, whyn't you let the late, great veteran live


(I...will...not...lose)
"God's son" across the belly, I prove you lost already
The king is back, where my crown at?
(Ill...will) Ill Will rest in peace, let's do it niggas


Y'all niggas deal with emotions like bitches
What's sad is I love you 'cause you're my brother
You traded your soul for riches
My child, I've watched you grow up to be famous
And now I smile like a proud dad, watchin his only son that made it
You seem to be only concerned with dissin women
Were you abused as a child, scared to smile, they called you ugly?
Well life is hard, hug me, don't reject me
Or make records to disrespect me, blatent or indirectly
In '88 you was gettin chased through your buildin
Callin my crib and I ain't even give you my numbers
All I did was gave you a style for you to run with
Smilin in my face, glad to break bread with the god
Wearin Jaz chains, no tecs, no cash, no cars
No jail bars Jigga, no pies, no case
Just Hawaiian shirts, hangin with little Chase
You a fan, a phony, a fake, a pussy, a Stan
I still whip your ass, you thirty-six in a karate class
You Tae-bo hoe, tryna' work it out, you tryna' get brolic?
Ask me if I'm tryna' kick knowledge
Nah, I'm tryna' kick the shit you need to learn though
That ether, that shit that make your soul burn slow
Is he Dame Diddy, Dame Daddy or Dame Dummy?
Oh, I get it, you Biggie and he's Puffy
Rockafeller died of AIDS, that was the end of his chapter
And that's the guy y'all chose to name your company after?
Put it together, I rock hoes, y'all rock fellas
And now y'all try to take my spot, fellas?
Philly's hot rock fellas, put you in a dry spot, fellas
In a pine box with nine shots from my glock, fellas
Foxy got you hot 'cause you kept your face in her puss
What you think, you gettin girls now 'cause of your looks?
Ne-gro please
You no mustache havin, with whiskers like a rat
Compared to Beans you wack
And your man stabbed Un and made you take the blame
You ass, went from Jaz to hangin with Caine, to Herb, to Big
And, Eminem murdered you on your own shit
You a dick-ridin ******, you love the attention
Queens niggas run you niggas, ask Russell Simmons
Ha, R-O-C get gunned up and clapped quick
J.J. Evans get gunned up and clapped quick
Your whole damn record label gunned up and clapped quick
Shaun Carter to Jay-Z, damn you on Jaz dick
So little shorty's gettin gunned up and clapped quick
How much of Biggie's rhymes is gon' come out your fat lips?
Wanted to be on every last one of my classics
You pop shit, apologize, nigga, just ask Kiss

Originally posted by inimalist
lol

good luck with that then

how does one quantify the level of flow in a rap song? what is the scale? what are the specific qualities of spoken word that make it flow as opposed to just talking?

People have tried to do this, with almost no success, in many other art forms. It is, imho, impossible to quantify these qualitative things.

Which is why you don't try to quantify qualitative things outside of rigorous scientific research. You can still compare your opinion on each quality to a standard to get a roughly quantitative measurement. If you really wanted something that you could call quantitative you'd need a huge number of judges, not counting the public.

Originally posted by red g jacks


that's fine, but that's a statement which can't be backed beyond personal opinion. i can't even begin to imagine trying to break down a rap flow in an objective sense. if you can then feel free to school me. so far as i can see it all comes down to the sensibilities of the listener.

i personally feel that flow is a means to an ends - the ends being good sounding rap music. the better the song sounds the more i think the flow has served it's purpose, so a less complicated flow at times can be 'better' than a more complicated flow if it's more fitting to the beat.
so do we judge a good rap song simply by the pure number of similes and metaphors within the lyrics, or is it the quality of metaphors that defines a good lyric from a bad lyric?

Yes but how far do you want to take subjectvity? If you take it to extremes then nothing is objective. Yes you could say that a compliacted flow isn't neccesarily better but why would you compare a rapper who isn't able to alter his flow and make it complicated to a rapper who can. Im not saying everything is about complexity and music is supposed to be fun but in any artform, sport or even science its about breaking boundaries shouldn't rappers who try to break these boundaries be given more respect than rappers who don't?

Originally posted by red g jacks


keep in mind 'supaman dat hoe' is technically a metaphor.

if it's the quality of the metaphor that matters, then wouldn't you agree that all comes down to opinion?

Again to an extent its is subjective. I can't say which rhymes is better "I flow like blood on the murder scene", or " I stay on that mind like a brain tumour" thats purely subjective. Would it be absurd to say that "stay on your mind like a brain tumour" is better than "I get you mad stressed". Anybody can say I can get you mad stressed because thats just how people talk but the rapper that went to the effort to make the metaphor and similie should get the credit. Would it also be absurd to say that rappers who keep repeating themselves and keep using the same lyrics again and again and have almost zero metaphors are not very good and lack imagination, why would these rappers be put on the same level to rappers that try their hardest to expand on their skills and to be creative as possible?

You could still say its subjective and it doesn't matter but then thats celebrating mediocrity. Since when is it good to celebrate mediocrity, thats not how artforms or science evolve. However you could also make a logical argument that human beings should not bother to better themselves because we are all going to die some day, so stop wasting your time and kill yourself now.

Originally posted by red g jacks


i agree freestyling is hard and to be respected. also agreed that it's not essential. i'd argue it as a separate artform just to avoid confusion.



Well I kinda disagree, im not sure if im going to get into this because this discussion could get too complicated.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes but how far do you want to take subjectvity? If you take it to extremes then nothing is objective. Yes you could say that a compliacted flow isn't neccesarily better but why would you compare a rapper who isn't able to alter his flow and make it complicated to a rapper who can. Im not saying everything is about complexity and music is supposed to be fun but in any artform, sport or even science its about breaking boundaries shouldn't rappers who try to break these boundaries be given more respect than rappers who don't?i think it's best not to turn this into a debate on relativism for the sake of the argument. if you want to bring up that 'nothing is objective' then fine but that's certainly not helping prove that rap skill is indeed objective. it's not that i'm arguing against using a complicated flow, or giving more respect to those who you do find impressive or innovative. i'm just not sold on the fact that flow can be judged beyond personal opinion.



it's not absurd to say either of those things. it's absurd to say they are more than just opinion. let me try to clarify what i mean a bit.. most of the time the best rappers will use a lot of literary techniques to spice up their verses. if it comes out well then i give them credit. in my opinion sometimes it is forced and makes the song even worse, so just the sheer number of metaphors and similes is not a good method of judging a rap verse imo. such as talib kweli, a well respected emcee by most informed rap fans. particularly in his early career he would sometimes use similes that were just painful to listen to as far as i'm concerned. similes such as "get you capped like an nba salary" or "emcees wanna test me like litmus." to me these similes seem so forced and corny, that yes, i'd say he'd have been better off just saying "get you shot" or "emcees wanna test me," especially if he could make the rhymes sound cool.


this example may not be taken kindly as talib is a well respected emcee so i'll use a more hated rapper on message boards to help back up my point; lil wayne. tha carter 3 was packed with half assed similes and metaphors, many of them forced and corny in a similar fashion, and some of them nonsensical. "***** im the bomb like tick tick" "bounce right back on them bitches like magic, abra kadabra im up like viagra"... and my personal favorite "flow is tighter than a yeast infection, fly go hard like geese erection."

to me, it seems rappers know people will respect them more if they try to use metaphors and similes and that causes them in some cases to do great things, and in others to completely force a corny line for the sake of a metaphor. sometimes, a straight forward verse can be just as dope. example:
to me despite it not having any mindblowing rhymes or metaphors this is a great verse and i wouldn't have changed it a bit. he could've easily ruined it with excessive literary tricks.


i'm not celebrating mediocrity, i never said it's better to not try i said there's more than one way to be dope and there's no actual fool proof method at creating or judging rap music. i'm not suggesting rappers throw metaphors and other lyrical devices out the window, just that they don't have to automatically force these things and other aspects of lyrical complexity just to boost their own egos. because most of the time we (the listeners) can tell.

Originally posted by zbucsz
I didnt mean when i said it was over over,i mean when nas put out ether he killed jay. Just read what this fool says, i like jay-z but hes a swagger jacker he use too rap fast then he wanted to be like biggie and stole his style. still reasonable doubt is one of my fav cd's, he goes with the flyest chick, and even signed nas lol.



What's up niggas, ay yo, I know you ain't talkin 'bout me dog
You, what?
"**** Jay-Z"
You been on my dick nigga, you love my style, nigga
"**** Jay-Z"


(I) **** with your soul like ether
(Will) Teach you the king you know you
(Not) "God's son" across the belly
(Lose) I prove you lost already

Brace yourself for the main event
Y'all impatiently waitin
It's like an AIDS test, what's the results?
Not positive, who's the best? Pac, Nas and Big
Ain't no best, East, West, North, South, flossed out, greedy
I embrace y'all with napalm
Blows up, no guts, left chest, face gone
How could Nas be garbage?
Semi-autos at your cartilege
Burner at the side of your dome, come outta my throne
I got this, locked since '9-1
I am the truest, name a rapper that I ain't influenced
Gave y'all chapters but now I keep my eyes on the Judas
With Hawaiin Sophie fame, kept my name in his music
Check it

I've been ****ed over, left for dead, dissed and fogotten
Luck ran out, they hoped that I'd be gone, stiff and rotten
Y'all just piss on me, shit on me, spit on my grave (uh)
Talk about me, laugh behind my back but in my face
Y'all some "well wishers," friendly actin, envy hidin snakes
With your hands out for my money, man, how much can I take?
When these streets keep callin, heard it when I was sleep
That this Gay-Z and Cockafella Records wanted beef
Started cockin up my weapon, slowly loadin up this ammo
To explode it on a camel, and his soldiers, I can handle
This for dolo and it's manuscript, just sound stupid
When KRS already made an album called Blueprint
First, Biggie's ya man, then you got the nerve to say that you better than Big
Dick suckin lips, whyn't you let the late, great veteran live


(I...will...not...lose)
"God's son" across the belly, I prove you lost already
The king is back, where my crown at?
(Ill...will) Ill Will rest in peace, let's do it niggas


Y'all niggas deal with emotions like bitches
What's sad is I love you 'cause you're my brother
You traded your soul for riches
My child, I've watched you grow up to be famous
And now I smile like a proud dad, watchin his only son that made it
You seem to be only concerned with dissin women
Were you abused as a child, scared to smile, they called you ugly?
Well life is hard, hug me, don't reject me
Or make records to disrespect me, blatent or indirectly
In '88 you was gettin chased through your buildin
Callin my crib and I ain't even give you my numbers
All I did was gave you a style for you to run with
Smilin in my face, glad to break bread with the god
Wearin Jaz chains, no tecs, no cash, no cars
No jail bars Jigga, no pies, no case
Just Hawaiian shirts, hangin with little Chase
You a fan, a phony, a fake, a pussy, a Stan
I still whip your ass, you thirty-six in a karate class
You Tae-bo hoe, tryna' work it out, you tryna' get brolic?
Ask me if I'm tryna' kick knowledge
Nah, I'm tryna' kick the shit you need to learn though
That ether, that shit that make your soul burn slow
Is he Dame Diddy, Dame Daddy or Dame Dummy?
Oh, I get it, you Biggie and he's Puffy
Rockafeller died of AIDS, that was the end of his chapter
And that's the guy y'all chose to name your company after?
Put it together, I rock hoes, y'all rock fellas
And now y'all try to take my spot, fellas?
Philly's hot rock fellas, put you in a dry spot, fellas
In a pine box with nine shots from my glock, fellas
Foxy got you hot 'cause you kept your face in her puss
What you think, you gettin girls now 'cause of your looks?
Ne-gro please
You no mustache havin, with whiskers like a rat
Compared to Beans you wack
And your man stabbed Un and made you take the blame
You ass, went from Jaz to hangin with Caine, to Herb, to Big
And, Eminem murdered you on your own shit
You a dick-ridin ******, you love the attention
Queens niggas run you niggas, ask Russell Simmons
Ha, R-O-C get gunned up and clapped quick
J.J. Evans get gunned up and clapped quick
Your whole damn record label gunned up and clapped quick
Shaun Carter to Jay-Z, damn you on Jaz dick
So little shorty's gettin gunned up and clapped quick
How much of Biggie's rhymes is gon' come out your fat lips?
Wanted to be on every last one of my classics
You pop shit, apologize, nigga, just ask Kiss well i know a lot of people who agree with you there. i think jay got at him harder because the things jay was saying seemed more personal and hurtful, even though nas rhymes like a beast on ether.

Originally posted by chithappens
Easily. People miss how intricate Eminem got cause of how crazy the concrete imagery was. In the words of Jay Z:

"The game's ****ed up
Nigga's beats is bangin, nigga your hooks did it
Your lyrics didn't, your gangster look did it
So I would write it if y'all could get it
Being intricate, I guess you would critic"


Nas said something kinda similar to that on that "unforgetttable" song when he talked about the cats and the game when he said:

"good times past right after *James died.
That's why these gangsta rhymers ain't inspired.
Heinous rhymes help records sell more than creative lines."


*James Brown (for those that didn't know)

Originally posted by red g jacks
i think it's best not to turn this into a debate on relativism for the sake of the argument. if you want to bring up that 'nothing is objective' then fine but that's certainly not helping prove that rap skill is indeed objective. it's not that i'm arguing against using a complicated flow, or giving more respect to those who you do find impressive or innovative. i'm just not sold on the fact that flow can be judged beyond personal opinion.



it's not absurd to say either of those things. it's absurd to say they are more than just opinion. let me try to clarify what i mean a bit.. most of the time the best rappers will use a lot of literary techniques to spice up their verses. if it comes out well then i give them credit. in my opinion sometimes it is forced and makes the song even worse, so just the sheer number of metaphors and similes is not a good method of judging a rap verse imo. such as talib kweli, a well respected emcee by most informed rap fans. particularly in his early career he would sometimes use similes that were just painful to listen to as far as i'm concerned. similes such as "get you capped like an nba salary" or "emcees wanna test me like litmus." to me these similes seem so forced and corny, that yes, i'd say he'd have been better off just saying "get you shot" or "emcees wanna test me," especially if he could make the rhymes sound cool.


this example may not be taken kindly as talib is a well respected emcee so i'll use a more hated rapper on message boards to help back up my point; lil wayne. tha carter 3 was packed with half assed similes and metaphors, many of them forced and corny in a similar fashion, and some of them nonsensical. "***** im the bomb like tick tick" "bounce right back on them bitches like magic, abra kadabra im up like viagra"... and my personal favorite "flow is tighter than a yeast infection, fly go hard like geese erection."

to me, it seems rappers know people will respect them more if they try to use metaphors and similes and that causes them in some cases to do great things, and in others to completely force a corny line for the sake of a metaphor. sometimes, a straight forward verse can be just as dope. example:
to me despite it not having any mindblowing rhymes or metaphors this is a great verse and i wouldn't have changed it a bit. he could've easily ruined it with excessive literary tricks.


i'm not celebrating mediocrity, i never said it's better to not try i said there's more than one way to be dope and there's no actual fool proof method at creating or judging rap music. i'm not suggesting rappers throw metaphors and other lyrical devices out the window, just that they don't have to automatically force these things and other aspects of lyrical complexity just to boost their own egos. because most of the time we (the listeners) can tell.

I don't know if you're still about but heres the rest of my post.

I think you misunderstood the reason why I stated that everything is subjective and really I don't think it hurts my argument because that was not the entire point I was making. My other point is were do you want to draw the line with subjectivity? I think I gave an example with morality were most people would agree that you should try to do something constructive and be responsible. The point I was making is that most people agree that you should be responsible for your actiona and thats the only way you can be objective really is to try and have an opinion that most people agree on...however even with this point of view people would disagree.

If you're are going to use what sounds better to you that is the very essence of subjectvity. It seems that we agree that its harder to flow in certain ways than in other ways, and its harder to use metaphors, similies and worldpaly as opposed to not making an effort to be creative and actually repeating the same lyrics or using lyrics that have been used before instead of using your own.

On one hand I don't want to say that if you don't agree with my criteria you're not being objective but it seems that there is actually some objectvity involved here. At the end of the day there do seem to be some things that are harder to do in rap and we could use that criteria to say who is better.....but bare in mind I do agree with you to an extent. I don't think we could use it for alot of rappers but I don't see why we couldn't for example say that GZA is better than Wishbone or Common Sense is better than Mase, because there are some rappers that are basically shit.

How about no one gives a shit? They're dead.

I like a very few rap songs, but I'm not caught up on which rock star managed to wipe out the Who. Creedence no longer exists, but I'm not lifting a $2.99 pack of lighters to support them. If they're dead, leave them alone. Do the very least you possibly could and buy their poster and carry them on to the next generation. It's what the fans of the Beatles or Elvis have done.

Yeah, the Ramones or the Sex Pistols! Or Nirvana for that matter.

Why hasn't this case reached the point of "who gives a shit?"

What pisses me off most about this is are the people who walk around thinking Biggie and 2Pac are still alive to this day walking among us. They join the nutcases who believe Elvis is still around.

EDIT: Devil King just said the same thing...

Nice.

Originally posted by Devil King
How about no one gives a shit? They're dead.

I like a very few rap songs, but I'm not caught up on which rock star managed to wipe out the Who. Creedence no longer exists, but I'm not lifting a $2.99 pack of lighters to support them. If they're dead, leave them alone. Do the very least you possibly could and buy their poster and carry them on to the next generation. It's what the fans of the Beatles or Elvis have done.

Yeah, the Ramones or the Sex Pistols! Or Nirvana for that matter.

I don't really give a shit either. You don't give a shit.....well um people wanted to discuss it. *shrug*

@ pac reigns supreme. WESTTTTTTSIDEEEEEEEEEEE
altho i will watch the new biggie movie