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This is for ranking the Kage-level ninjas of the Naruto world.

Godly:
Pein
Madara
Shodai
Fourth Hokage

High:
Third Hokage
Jiraiya
Itachi
Orochimaru

Mid:
Tsunade
Kakashi
Kabuto

Low:
Nidaime?

Where the **** is Kiribachi?

Second hokage should be high, Eight tails should be at least mid, Kakashi and Kabuto should be low and Tsunade should be high, below Orochimaru. To be honest a lot of Ninja would fall in to the low tier considering you put Kakashi and Kabuto in mid and for some strange reason the second hokage lower than them.

Because he hasn't done anything.
He's the fodder of the Hokage.

First - Defeated Madara and bossed around the tailed beasts.
Third - Was the God of Shinobi, fought one of the Sannin + two other Hokage and almost won.
Fourth - Could solo armies of ninjas, had his own teleportation jutsu, invented Shiki Fujin, managed to seal off the Kyuubi with it.
Fifth - One of the Sannin. Possibly physically strongest of all ninjas. Invented a jutsu that makes her temporarily invincible to all attacks.

Kakashi currently has the ability to teleport people to other dimensions and has the frickin' Mengakyou Sharingan.
Kabuto is his level.

So...what did Nidaime do to be above all that?

I don't think Kabuto is on his level now that he has the MS.

Ya know Kabuto was stated to be Kakashi level before the time skip and then has done nothing but loose to Naruto. So should he really be up there with Kakashi who has improved? When we've seen nothing of him. And the Second may not have any feats because nobody talks about him but he was still Hokage during a time of war. Just because he was overshadowed by his brother doesn't make him weak. Shino gets overshadowed by just about everybody but he's still one probably the second strongest rookie nine member..Not counting Naruto when he decides to use Kyuubi to help him out.

Why is the Third below Shodaime when he's been shown to actually kick his ass when the two come face-to-face? Also the Raikage should be somewhere high since apparently he is just as strong as Kirabi, who I think should be high himself since he kicked Sasuke's ass much more convincingly then Itachi could.

Kabuto also has Orochimaru sorta kinda inside him. He's more than likely improved a good bit himself.
Kabuto also never lost to Naruto. He killed him for a sec while he, Kabuto, healed from a point blank Rasengan. This was after a fight witH a future Hokage.



Because that was a ressurrected Shodai....in the body of a Genin.



Itachi was dying and playing around with Sasuke.
It's said right after the fight Itachi could have killed Sasuke if he had really wanted to.

The gap between Tsunade and the firrst two is not that big.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Because that was a ressurrected Shodai....in the body of a Genin.
Do you have any proof that people resurrected by Edo Tensei are weaker then the originals? He even had the mind of the original (before being sealed.)

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Itachi was dying and playing around with Sasuke.
It's said right after the fight Itachi could have killed Sasuke if he had really wanted to.
Kirabi not only could of killed Sasuke, he was in the process of doing so.

Should also be noted that Kirabi fought a Sasuke armed with the Mangekyo, and Itachi didn't.

And it should also be noted that in about a minute into their fight, Kirabi WOULD HAVE killed Sasuke, he was dying, but Karin healed him.

Kirabi owned the entire team until he fvcked himself over by turning into the Eight Tailed, which although has great power...It's so big that there is no realistic way he would not be hit by Amaterasu.

Eh Itachi could have did the same thing just as easy against team Hawk except Itachi was dying and the 8-tails was at full health.

Kirabi would have honestly been better off staying in his human form.

I agree. He was doing so much better.

Well if it wasn't for Suigetsu somehow tanking that huge blast in his water form...They'd all be dead in one shot. Course if he hadn't sat there while Juugo healed Sasuke he could have probably one-shot them all also. But of course if he hadn't went demon Sasuke wouldn't have been made to look as good by beating the actual demon. And after all..the manga may as well be Sasuke as of right now.

No but thing is, like I said, Eight Tails is far too large to be able to realistically dodge Amaterasu. It's like firing a bullet at a building.

Kiribach could of quite possibly dodged it while human. He showed impressive speed and reflexes.

Totally. Also, Sasuke had the Mangekyo and his entire team to fight Kirabi, he didn't have any of that stuff for Itachi but Kirabi still did better.

It's not like adding Team Hawk and MS would help Sasuke against Itachi. It would have just made a Itachi try a little bit harder because he'd have to rid himself of the little annoyances then do his plan. It's not like he was trying to beat Sasuke in that fight just get him to use all his chakra so Oro would come out so he could get rid of the cursed seal then give Sasuke all his techniques, and Itachi is much more skilled in the MS, and could just use Amaterasu when he wants without it hurting himself. If he had wanted to kill Sasuke he'd have been dead already no matter who was there. Also Itachi was dying while 8-tails was at full health.

I mean really both fights had different circumstances.

Yeah Itachi was dying, that's just one more reason that Kirabi is above him-I wouldn't place my bets on the guy with the serious illness. What's Itachi even going to do to Kirabi anyway?

Tsukiyomi: We've already seen that it doesn't work on Kirabi.
Amaterasu: Non-released Kirabi can dodge it.
Susanoo: We've never seen it protect from anything on the level of the second-strongest Biju. And his sword won't do shit since Kirabi is immune to Genjutsu.

Not to mention Kirabi is black.

That has to count for something.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah Itachi was dying, that's just one more reason that Kirabi is above him-I wouldn't place my bets on the guy with the serious illness. What's Itachi even going to do to Kirabi anyway?

Tsukiyomi: We've already seen that it doesn't work on Kirabi.
Amaterasu: Non-released Kirabi can dodge it.
Susanoo: We've never seen it protect from anything on the level of the second-strongest Biju. And his sword won't do shit since Kirabi is immune to Genjutsu. We've seen Sasuke's tsukiyomi not work on him. Itachi is a whole different ball game.

Being faster than Sasuke doesn't mean he could dodge Amaterasu. Not to mention again Itachi's control over it is on a completely different level than Sasuke's and Itachi is quite a bit faster than Sasuke.

Susanoo...Suigetsu protected everybody from his blast I fail to see how something that reflects the attack back is going to be destroyed. And the sword killed Orochimaru. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

Beating Sasuke isn't exactly some over the top godly feat. Deidara was bringing a fight to Sasuke until he did his ultimate PIS move like he did yet again. The MS also doesn't make him more powerful just his sharingan along with the ability to use a few powerful moves like Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu.

I don't see how 8-tails is really any more powerful than Itachi. I wouldn't say Itachi's really anymore powerful either..but we've seen the 8-tails go all out. We've never seen Itachi. And they both have toyed with Sasuke without doing so.

Originally posted by Kento
We've seen Sasuke's tsukiyomi not work on him. Itachi is a whole different ball game.
Is there any reason to believe that the two techniques are different? Kirabi said the eight tails can turn off any genjutsu by disrupting his chakra, so it won't matter how good the genjutsu is.

Originally posted by Kento
Being faster than Sasuke doesn't mean he could dodge Amaterasu. Not to mention again Itachi's control over it is on a completely different level than Sasuke's and Itachi is quite a bit faster than Sasuke.
Actually, it does. Sasuke can dodge Amaterasu, and as you just said, Kirabi is even faster and thus can do it with even more ease, and can do replacement without it tiring himself out since he has an unlimited chakra source.

Originally posted by Kento
Susanoo...Suigetsu protected everybody from his blast I fail to see how something that reflects the attack back is going to be destroyed. And the sword killed Orochimaru. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.
Suigetsu got messed up trying to block his attack (did he survive? I can't remember.) It wasn't like that was the extent of Kirabi's chakra either, he can launch attacks all day whereas using Susanoo continually depletes Itachi's chakra. The sword may be able to trap Orochimaru in an eternal genjutsu, but genjutsu don't work on Kirabi. Also Oro never even tried to avoid or block the sword at all. He let it hit him because he didn't know that it could harm him.

Originally posted by Kento
Beating Sasuke isn't exactly some over the top godly feat. Deidara was bringing a fight to Sasuke until he did his ultimate PIS move like he did yet again. The MS also doesn't make him more powerful just his sharingan along with the ability to use a few powerful moves like Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu.
It actually is a better feat than anything we've ever seen. Orochimaru couldn't beat a pre-mangekyo Sasuke. Neither could Deidara. Itachi... he died. Whether he was going all-out or not, all we have is Madara's word on it so i'm not willing to rank him head-over-heals above Sasuke yet. Kirabi, however, was demonstratively above Sasuke by miles, and this Sasuke had the mangekyo... Sasuke is all about his Sharingan, having enhanced perception + three of the most powerful jutsu in the world will certainly put him on another level.

Originally posted by Kento
I don't see how 8-tails is really any more powerful than Itachi. I wouldn't say Itachi's really anymore powerful either..but we've seen the 8-tails go all out. We've never seen Itachi. And they both have toyed with Sasuke without doing so.
We've seen the eight-tails have fun with Sasuke and nearly kill his entire team. Kirabi just didn't take them seriously at all, he left when the fight got boring and could only be bothered to kick their asses a second time when they took the fight to him. Itachi, he died. We don't know how much more he could have done, Madara isn't exactly the most trustworthy guy on the subject since he is a villain and all. We do know that Kirabi is far above the entire Hawk team, which includes a Mangekyo Sasuke. Itachi died fighting a lesser Sasuke and has nothing more then hearsay as to whether he could do more.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Is there any reason to believe that the two techniques are different? Kirabi said the eight tails can turn off any genjutsu by disrupting his chakra, so it won't matter how good the genjutsu is.


Actually, it does. Sasuke can dodge Amaterasu, and as you just said, Kirabi is even faster and thus can do it with even more ease, and can do replacement without it tiring himself out since he has an unlimited chakra source.


Suigetsu got messed up trying to block his attack (did he survive? I can't remember.) It wasn't like that was the extent of Kirabi's chakra either, he can launch attacks all day whereas using Susanoo continually depletes Itachi's chakra. The sword may be able to trap Orochimaru in an eternal genjutsu, but genjutsu don't work on Kirabi. Also Oro never even tried to avoid or block the sword at all. He let it hit him because he didn't know that it could harm him.


It actually is a better feat than anything we've ever seen. Orochimaru couldn't beat a pre-mangekyo Sasuke. Neither could Deidara. Itachi... he died. Whether he was going all-out or not, all we have is Madara's word on it so i'm not willing to rank him head-over-heals above Sasuke yet. Kirabi, however, was demonstratively above Sasuke by miles, and this Sasuke had the mangekyo... Sasuke is all about his Sharingan, having enhanced perception + three of the most powerful jutsu in the world will certainly put him on another level.


We've seen the eight-tails have fun with Sasuke and nearly kill his entire team. Kirabi just didn't take them seriously at all, he left when the fight got boring and could only be bothered to kick their asses a second time when they took the fight to him. Itachi, he died. We don't know how much more he could have done, Madara isn't exactly the most trustworthy guy on the subject since he is a villain and all. We do know that Kirabi is far above the entire Hawk team, which includes a Mangekyo Sasuke. Itachi died fighting a lesser Sasuke and has nothing more then hearsay as to whether he could do more. The fact that Itachi is more skilled in it, and has completely owned another sharingan with Tsukiyomi even though Kakashi knew it was a genjutsu. Itachi completely owned a Genjutsu master with his sharingan. Owned Deidara. Sasuke's done what? Use it against a no name guy and fail against the 8-tails. Itachi's had the MS for like..what 10 years almost? Sasuke a couple days. Itachi is also more powerful so it's also stand to reason Tsukiyomi would be more powerful. Just because he broke out of one genjutsu doesn't mean he can break out of every single one.

Sasuke dodged a Amaterasu not meant to hit or kill him...Don't see how that's relevant at all.

And Suigetsu's attack doesn't reflect it back...8-tails would be hit with the attack he threw at Itachi. And Itachi was out of chakra when he used that move, plus dying. Nobody knows how much chakra it takes up. He kept it up a long time without any chakra I'm sure if he used it at the start he'd be fine. Also there are different kinds of genjutsu. Breaking out of one doesn't mean you can break out of another stronger one by a stronger opponent.

Oro was nearly dead and had Sasuke dead to rights...He just tried to take over the body instead of killing him because he needed a body. So yea circumstances. Deidara gave Sasuke a big fight and only lost because of some hax lightning can defuse bombs made from earth element. Sasuke should've died plenty of times in that fight. Itachi..was dying, gave Sasuke all his jutsu, killed Oro, released Sasuke from the cursed seal that would kill him, and all while his brother went all out on him trying to kill him. So yea again circumstances. Just like his defeat of 8-tails his wins have all been pure and utter luck not his actual skill at all. Ever since his win over Naruto which was also pure PIS he hasn't had one real win against anybody worth mentioning. Sasuke also didn't use the MS in that fight until he put him in the genjutus then when he used Amaterasu. Heck most Itachi fights he fought without even using MS until he pulled out the big moves. Same with Kakashi. I don't even think we've seen Tobi use the MS except to teleport. The MS gives you new moves not much else it would seem.

You don't need Madara to tell you Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke. He gave all his moves to Sasuke, he killed Orochimaru, he was dying, and Zetsu talks about how weakened Itachi was. Not one thing about the battle makes sense with Itachi wanting to kill him. Plus he gave Naruto something because he wanted to save Sasuke. Yea Madara may be the villain and probably lied about a lot but Itachi wasn't one of them. There is also nothing to suggest Sasuke is any stronger at all just that he has Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu while still being just as powerful when he fought Itachi but he lost the cursed seal. Kakashi has the MS but he didn't suddenly jump in power when he used it. The techniques gained are just powerful. And it's not like adding Karin, Suigetsu, or Juugo are really going to make much of a difference. They aren't exactly that high a level and Karin is all but worthless. I like Juugo and but c'mon they've all been useless except to save Sasuke from dying. They don't deserve to be against one of the strongest ninja's of Konoha (Itachi not Sasuke) in a fight.

But here's the thing.

Kirabi is black, and he even has 1337 rap skillz.

That alone is far above any other feat in Naruto.

the one thing that REALLY screwes up the rankings is the fact that the FIRST hokage beat madara, seeing as the first, second AND third cudnt beat even urochimaru;

oh and lets not forget that pain said he wud have DIED if jiraya had discovered his secret. ok ill try to do this

godly:

kyuubi
shiki fuujin{shinigami}
rikoudo
madara
yondaime
pain
1sk hokage

high:

jiraya
itachi
sasuke
the guy who beat the sennin and gave them the name
urochimaru
8 tails
{naruto soon}
tsunade

mid:

kisame
kakashi
kabuto
kimimaru
diedara
pain's partner girly{forgot her name}
kakuszu{voodoo ritual guy}
2 tails
1 tail

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the one thing that REALLY screwes up the rankings is the fact that the FIRST hokage beat madara, seeing as the first, second AND third cudnt beat even urochimaru; First and Second never fought Oro..and 3rd wasn't at full strength when he fought Oro.

Wasn't Sarutobi said to be stronger than the 1st and 2nd in his prime, and the 4th said to be stronger than Sarutobi??

erm, if u havent forgotten, urochimaru summoned the first and second. and srry, i meant fought the 3rd hokage and lost. and full strength or not, even uro wasnt going all out, he didnt use his yamato no urochi jutsu, or his snake regeneration or attacks as he was againt itachi and 4 tails. the only reason third had a chance was because of his shiki fuujin. and yea, sarutobi WAS said to be stronger and it made sense, UNTIL we find out that he FIRST defeated MADARA. so unless we waana say that madara was below urochimaru/3rd........

Or the fact that the 3rd was said a few times in that fight to have been extremely weaker than when he was young just means that the 3rd was at one time stronger than Madara. Because he beat Madara doesn't suddenly boost the 1st stronger than the 3rd when it's been said the 3rd and 4th were stronger. That doesn't make Oro or Jiraiya stronger than Madara just because they are stronger than a old Sarutobi.

And he did use the attack he used against Naruto..it's what killed the 3rd faster. Kusanagi sword and all through the back. Besides we all know Oro couldn't beat Madara..He has the sharingan and Oro looses to the sharingan every time.

The 1st was truely badass. I mean the dude had 7 tailed beast as pets. Then decides you know what I'll let these guys have a few so they don't get all annoying and grumpy.

Well the First managed to beat the Kyuubi and Madara without killing himself...

Naruto is really starting to not make any sense.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
erm, if u havent forgotten, urochimaru summoned the first and second. How does that make Orochimaru stronger? They never fought and they had to do what he said as thats just how the technique works. No way was Orochimaru stronger than the 1st, in his prime he had total control over several tailed beasts and that alone puts him near the top.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Well the First managed to beat the Kyuubi and Madara without killing himself... I may be forgetting some thing when Madara told that story but all we have to base that fight on are a few pages of a flash back which are not much. The 1st can control the tailed beasts so maybe his control was greater than Madaras.

I don't think we should really count controlling the tailed beast as making them more powerful than characters that later appear. It's kind of like a special ability of theirs. We also need to realize that Naruto has an rpg kind of set up with certain things beating things that other things(even if stronger) can't. So maybe the 1st had something that put him over Madara.

can someone translate the names for me please, i remember the former rain village kage that was slain, he was quite powerful and i'm not sure if he was named in this thread or not


nevermind, leon mentioned him.

what about;

-kakashi's father? he was the origional white wolf or whatever

-danzou the leader of the anbu blavk ops

-chiyo and sasori. sasori took over a whole nation by himself and chiyo was his puppet jutsu teacher.

-shukaku garraa

-gai with all his gates opened

-chouji on the pepper soldier pill

-haku

-sage mode jaraiya

-2nd and 3rd hikage

-manda, gamabunta, and katsuya

-anko and shizune

-

Originally posted by Kento
The fact that Itachi is more skilled in it, and has completely owned another sharingan with Tsukiyomi even though Kakashi knew it was a genjutsu. Itachi completely owned a Genjutsu master with his sharingan. Owned Deidara. Sasuke's done what? Use it against a no name guy and fail against the 8-tails. Itachi's had the MS for like..what 10 years almost? Sasuke a couple days. Itachi is also more powerful so it's also stand to reason Tsukiyomi would be more powerful. Just because he broke out of one genjutsu doesn't mean he can break out of every single one.
Never has it been shown that the MS techniques come in a variety of powers. Hell, they are techniques produced by the eyes, so it stands to reason that the same eyes produce the same techniques. I would even go so far as to say that since Sasuke's MS was fresh, and Itachi's was nearly dead and blind, Sasuke's Amaterasu should logically be even stronger.

Originally posted by Kento
Sasuke dodged a Amaterasu not meant to hit or kill him...Don't see how that's relevant at all.
It was definitely meant to hit him, of course Itachi needed to cut it off so he could get Sasuke's eyes, but he was very surprised to see that Sasuke had avoided it. It shows that Amaterasu can be dodged by someone with lesser speed than Kirabi.

Originally posted by Kento
And Suigetsu's attack doesn't reflect it back...8-tails would be hit with the attack he threw at Itachi. And Itachi was out of chakra when he used that move, plus dying. Nobody knows how much chakra it takes up. He kept it up a long time without any chakra I'm sure if he used it at the start he'd be fine. Also there are different kinds of genjutsu. Breaking out of one doesn't mean you can break out of another stronger one by a stronger opponent.
Yeah, eight tails probably wouldn't use that move more then once. But we know Susanoo uses Chakra continually (though the amount is unknown) so eventually Itachi will tire himself out since he will be unable to put Kirabi down. Kirabi can break out of any Genjutsu. Disrupting his chakra just gives the genjutsu nothing to work with, no matter how strong it is. Genjutsu work on chakra so getting rid of the chakra will totally shut them down.

Originally posted by Kento
Oro was nearly dead and had Sasuke dead to rights...He just tried to take over the body instead of killing him because he needed a body. So yea circumstances. Deidara gave Sasuke a big fight and only lost because of some hax lightning can defuse bombs made from earth element. Sasuke should've died plenty of times in that fight. Itachi..was dying, gave Sasuke all his jutsu, killed Oro, released Sasuke from the cursed seal that would kill him, and all while his brother went all out on him trying to kill him. So yea again circumstances. Just like his defeat of 8-tails his wins have all been pure and utter luck not his actual skill at all. Ever since his win over Naruto which was also pure PIS he hasn't had one real win against anybody worth mentioning. Sasuke also didn't use the MS in that fight until he put him in the genjutus then when he used Amaterasu. Heck most Itachi fights he fought without even using MS until he pulled out the big moves. Same with Kakashi. I don't even think we've seen Tobi use the MS except to teleport. The MS gives you new moves not much else it would seem.
Deidara just plain lost, it doesn't matter that you might think it was PIS, it was a legit win. Akatsuki does not really seem that powerful imo. Itachi was dying, that's just one more reason that he would lose to Kirabi. He used all his Jutsu, killed Oro etc... those were all things that Sasuke forced him to do. If the MS was nothing special, then no one would ever bother acquiring it. It clearly is a step forward since Sasuke bases his powers on his Sharingan.

Originally posted by Kento
You don't need Madara to tell you Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke. He gave all his moves to Sasuke, he killed Orochimaru, he was dying, and Zetsu talks about how weakened Itachi was. Not one thing about the battle makes sense with Itachi wanting to kill him. Plus he gave Naruto something because he wanted to save Sasuke. Yea Madara may be the villain and probably lied about a lot but Itachi wasn't one of them. There is also nothing to suggest Sasuke is any stronger at all just that he has Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu while still being just as powerful when he fought Itachi but he lost the cursed seal. Kakashi has the MS but he didn't suddenly jump in power when he used it. The techniques gained are just powerful. And it's not like adding Karin, Suigetsu, or Juugo are really going to make much of a difference. They aren't exactly that high a level and Karin is all but worthless. I like Juugo and but c'mon they've all been useless except to save Sasuke from dying. They don't deserve to be against one of the strongest ninja's of Konoha (Itachi not Sasuke) in a fight.

Itachi killed Orochimaru because he had to and would have lost otherwise. He wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, true... he needed his eyes after all. But he was definitely trying to put Sasuke down and just couldn't. He gave him some moves that would activate to try and kill Madara, but Madara was to smart and kept stuff from him. He failed in life and he failed in death. As for the allies, sure Karin and Juugo suck, but Suigetsu fought Kisame to a standstill, and Kisame is on Itachi's level.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Never has it been shown that the MS techniques come in a variety of powers. Hell, they are techniques produced by the eyes, so it stands to reason that the same eyes produce the same techniques. I would even go so far as to say that since Sasuke's MS was fresh, and Itachi's was nearly dead and blind, Sasuke's Amaterasu should logically be even stronger.


It was definitely meant to hit him, of course Itachi needed to cut it off so he could get Sasuke's eyes, but he was very surprised to see that Sasuke had avoided it. It shows that Amaterasu can be dodged by someone with lesser speed than Kirabi.


Yeah, eight tails probably wouldn't use that move more then once. But we know Susanoo uses Chakra continually (though the amount is unknown) so eventually Itachi will tire himself out since he will be unable to put Kirabi down. Kirabi can break out of any Genjutsu. Disrupting his chakra just gives the genjutsu nothing to work with, no matter how strong it is. Genjutsu work on chakra so getting rid of the chakra will totally shut them down.


Deidara just plain lost, it doesn't matter that you might think it was PIS, it was a legit win. Akatsuki does not really seem that powerful imo. Itachi was dying, that's just one more reason that he would lose to Kirabi. He used all his Jutsu, killed Oro etc... those were all things that Sasuke forced him to do. If the MS was nothing special, then no one would ever bother acquiring it. It clearly is a step forward since Sasuke bases his powers on his Sharingan.



Itachi killed Orochimaru because he had to and would have lost otherwise. He wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, true... he needed his eyes after all. But he was definitely trying to put Sasuke down and just couldn't. He gave him some moves that would activate to try and kill Madara, but Madara was to smart and kept stuff from him. He failed in life and he failed in death. As for the allies, sure Karin and Juugo suck, but Suigetsu fought Kisame to a standstill, and Kisame is on Itachi's level. Um...Tobi using it to TP, and Kakashi using his to send things to different dimensions..sorta has the whole different variety of attacks. Sasuke's only got Itachi's because they were given to him. One would think he'd have his own MS jutsu like the other three though he hasn't shown it. Sasuke is weaker..why would that stand to reason Amaterasu would be stronger from him? And going blind doesn't make the sharingan weaker..It just makes you blind.

He wasn't trying to take Sasuke's eyes...If he had been trying to take Sasuke's eyes he wouldn't have went to Naruto first and had that talk with him about saving Sasuke. Using Itachi's battle, or Orochimaru's battle as a show of Sasuke's power is the worst possible thing. Deidara's sure...but that would only make him about as powerful as Deidara at most. The only reason he won was because of the element advantage and Deidara still gave him a huge fight. So again...Amaterasu wasn't meant to do anything but make Sasuke use up his chakra faster, and to make him think his brother was actually trying when Itachi was far from doing so.



Being hit with his own attacks I think would pretty much hurt 8-tails, and Amaterasu as shown would put him out. Not to mention Itachi knows a lot more techniques than Sasuke and fights completely different. Beating Sasuke doesn't make one invincible..loosing to Sasuke doesn't make one weak either when most of his wins are plot devices. There are more types of genjutsu than just what Tsukiyomi does. The one that Jiraiya used is different than Tsukiyomi. The one Kabuto used to put everybody to sleep was different. Kurenai's was different. Some are just illusions of the surroundings, some are done through hearing, and others are like Tsukiyomi which is inside your mind type thing. Breaking out of one (by somebody weaker at that) doesn't mean he can break out of all genjutsu.

Itach's been dying for years...and he's still managed to be one of the strongest ninja of Konoha. Sasuke didn't force him to do anything...He did what he did because it was a show and how else do you think you can full somebody if you don't pull out all your moves yet let him break out or dodge them to make him think he was stronger. As for Oro...Sasuke didn't let him out. He ran out of chakra then Oro came out because Sasuke could no longer repress him. And Itachi took care of him to save his brother. I also never said the MS wasn't special..How else would you get the super special moves it gives you? But learning stronger jutsu doesn't mean it makes your chakra more powerful.

Itachi hasn't failed yet..unless you've forgotten he has used Naruto as a failsafe also to SAVE Sasuke. If he was trying to kill Sasuke or take his eyes or whatever he wouldn't of went to Naruto and gave him something to save Sasuke. He also wouldn't have gave him all his techniques if he wanted him dead. Nor would he cared about Madara getting to him. Everything was done to protect Sasuke. As for Suigetsu..He didn't fight Kisame to a standstill. Zetsu stopped them from fighting. And Sasuke even said Suigetsu stood no chance against Kisame.

But this is all for nothing. I'm not trying to say Itachi > 8-tails. I'm trying to say that they both belong in the same league. I don't cares who would win against the other.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Well the First managed to beat the Kyuubi and Madara without killing himself...

Naruto is really starting to not make any sense. Well if you can supress the demons..beating the 9-tails wouldn't be hard. Then it would just be Madara vs the 1st. And the Sharingan's been beat before. Plus we don't know all his abilities. He may have some other special abilities. Just because the 3rd was more powerful and knew more jutsu than...well probably anybody and without the use of some hax sharingan doesn't mean Sarutobi could beat the MS since we don't really know what went down except Madara lost. Be it to a plot device power or just because the 1st was exceptionally skilled or what.

Originally posted by razor4life
I don't think we should really count controlling the tailed beast as making them more powerful than characters that later appear. It's kind of like a special ability of theirs. Thats one of his techniques, as far as we know he was born with that ability, it is part of his DNA why should it be ruled out? Special abilities are what put them in the top tier...

Originally posted by Magee
Thats one of his techniques, as far as we know he was born with that ability, it is part of his DNA why should it be ruled out? Special abilities are what put them in the top tier... Because..it's really not useful in a fight that has no demons? I mean sure Yamato and the 1st can supress the demons but how is that really going to matter in a fight against like..Pein or Jiraiya? And sure Madara can summon the demons but how is that going to work when all the demons are...either in somebody or their souls or whatever are in a statue? Doesn't really make them more powerful. Sorta like a Byakugan used by Hinata. The techniques great but in a fight it's sorta worthless.

What of kakashis father? They said he was far greater than the Sannin.

And i think that the four hokages shud top the list( young third hokage)

The first defeated madara in his prime.
the second............Well he was the first brother.lol
The third when he was young mastered all the jutsu in konoha and was described as being possibly the greatest of all hokages.
The fourth has possibly the coolest and most devastating move in all of naruto which enabled him to take don entire armies by himself.

Pyron Knight, if you honestly think Itachi is not at a god level, then you haven't seen his full power.

Originally posted by Wil7
Pyron Knight, if you honestly think Itachi is not at a god level, then you haven't seen his full power. Nobody has seen Itachi's full power. But that could be said for nearly half the top tiers in Naruto.

Originally posted by Kento
Nobody has seen Itachi's full power. But that could be said for nearly half the top tiers in Naruto.

I have seen it. It would be a hokage, if he wasn't rogue. His jutsu's are:
Sharingan
Mangekyo Sharingan
Amaterasu
Transcription Seal: Amaterasu
Tsukuyomi
Fire Release: Phoenix Immortal Fire Technique
Susanoo
Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes
Water Release: Water Fang Bullet
Crow Clone Technique
Shadow Clone Technique
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Shadow Clone Explosion
Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change
Ephemeral
Fire Release: Dragon Fire Technique
Water Clone Technique

These are all of them. The hasn't really lost a major fight.

Originally posted by Wil7
I have seen it. It would be a hokage, if he wasn't rogue. His jutsu's are:
Sharingan
Mangekyo Sharingan
Amaterasu
Transcription Seal: Amaterasu
Tsukuyomi
Fire Release: Phoenix Immortal Fire Technique
Susanoo
Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes
Water Release: Water Fang Bullet
Crow Clone Technique
Shadow Clone Technique
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Shadow Clone Explosion
Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change
Ephemeral
Fire Release: Dragon Fire Technique
Water Clone Technique

These are all of them. The hasn't really lost a major fight. Bunch of jutsu aren't his full power. And he wouldn't be Hokage because he's a Uchiha. They would never allow him to become Hokage. He lost against Sasuke. Albeit willingly lost but that was a major fight he lost. He also ran from Jiraiya while he had Kisame with him. But we've still never seen his full power. We've seen him fight sure but never in the two fights I remember he wasn't a clone did he show his true strength, and the other fight was a 30% chakra clone so he didn't show his full strength their either.

Originally posted by Kento
Bunch of jutsu aren't his full power. And he wouldn't be Hokage because he's a Uchiha. They would never allow him to become Hokage. He lost against Sasuke. Albeit willingly lost but that was a major fight he lost. He also ran from Jiraiya while he had Kisame with him. But we've still never seen his full power. We've seen him fight sure but never in the two fights I remember he wasn't a clone did he show his true strength, and the other fight was a 30% chakra clone so he didn't show his full strength their either.

Bunch are at full power, like all of his ms moves. Being an Uchiha has nothing to do with it at all. Itachi wanted to die against Sasuke, and he let Itachi kill him. Itachi even said he would have killed Sasuke if he really wanted to. He did run, but he escaped a jutsu that even Jiraiya said no one has ever survived it. And if we saw his full strength, he would slauter everyone he fights.

Originally posted by Wil7
Bunch are at full power, like all of his ms moves. Being an Uchiha has nothing to do with it at all. Itachi wanted to die against Sasuke, and he let Itachi kill him. Itachi even said he would have killed Sasuke if he really wanted to. He did run, but he escaped a jutsu that even Jiraiya said no one has ever survived it. And if we saw his full strength, he would slauter everyone he fights. We've never seen any of his moves at full power. He didn't want to kill anybody during the times he fought Kakashi and Sasuke pre-time skip, and he was dying when he fought Sasuke and let Sasuke win.

And being a Uchiha has a lot to do with him never being Hokage if he hadn't of left...since the council of elders would never allow an Uchiha to rule Konoha.

And out of everybody alive we've not seen Pein, Madara, or Kisame at full power either. So saying he'd beat everybody that's a lie since we don't know where they all stand. Even out of everybody dead we've still yet to see Sho/Ni/Yondaime, Oro's and Itachi's full power.

Oh great, it's the Quanchi of Naruto.

Seriously Kento, you would have an easier time trying to shove your head through a 5 foot thick reincforced steel wall.

Eh I think he's worse than Quan. But I really don't go to many Thanos threads either.

Someone here has never had a debate with Quan. haermm

"Thanos has never been beaten with physical force, I GUESS THAT MEANS HE CAN'T!"

lol Most threads I do enter in the comics versus me and Quan are usually on the same side of the debate so I don't pay much attention to what he says.

I think his worst is saying Thanos loss to SG is non-canon though lol that's all I really remember from him cause I see it all the time.

Originally posted by Kento
lol Most threads I do enter in the comics versus me and Quan are usually on the same side of the debate

Originally posted by Kento
We've never seen any of his moves at full power. He didn't want to kill anybody during the times he fought Kakashi and Sasuke pre-time skip, and he was dying when he fought Sasuke and let Sasuke win.

And being a Uchiha has a lot to do with him never being Hokage if he hadn't of left...since the council of elders would never allow an Uchiha to rule Konoha.

And out of everybody alive we've not seen Pein, Madara, or Kisame at full power either. So saying he'd beat everybody that's a lie since we don't know where they all stand. Even out of everybody dead we've still yet to see Sho/Ni/Yondaime, Oro's and Itachi's full power.

Itachi didn't want to fight Kakashi. Itachi even said he could kill Sasuke if he wanted to.

You don't know that for an 100% fact.

Kisame was fighting at his hardest, even though not him, against Gai. Pein wanted to get Jiraiya dead and over with right away, so fought at his hardest. All you need to know about Itachi is that Itachi is stronger than Oro.

Originally posted by Wil7
Itachi didn't want to fight Kakashi. Itachi even said he could kill Sasuke if he wanted to.

You don't know that for an 100% fact.

Kisame was fighting at his hardest, even though not him, against Gai. Pein wanted to get Jiraiya dead and over with right away, so fought at his hardest. All you need to know about Itachi is that Itachi is stronger than Oro. 1. True. Still doesn't change the fact that we don't know his true power.

2. Yeah we do. The Elders ARE the ones who ordered the clan slaughtered you know. Though Itachi of course is Kage level, as he as shown more power than other Kage level ninja.

3. It was Kisame at 30% power. Pein fought at his hardest? Didn't seem like it...Stronger than Oro? Big deal. Oro by current Naruto standards is not that powerful. Funny though, he was hyped as the antagonist...Then gets pwned in Shippuden by Sasuke.

Originally posted by Kento
I think his worst is saying Thanos loss to SG is non-canon though lol that's all I really remember from him cause I see it all the time.
That part is actually true, he said it was a clone in a later issue, one so advanced it could fool the watcher.

His worst was saying Thanos could resist Soul Suck based off of nothing at all.

Originally posted by Wil7
Itachi didn't want to fight Kakashi. Itachi even said he could kill Sasuke if he wanted to.

You don't know that for an 100% fact.

Kisame was fighting at his hardest, even though not him, against Gai. Pein wanted to get Jiraiya dead and over with right away, so fought at his hardest. All you need to know about Itachi is that Itachi is stronger than Oro. That's what I said...He never fought seriously so we can't know his full power. Being stronger than Kakashi and Sasuke aren't really something that puts him stronger than everybody.

Except I do. The Council of Elders would never let a Uchiha rule Konoha.

30% clone of Kisame going all out doesn't = Kisame going all out. Pein didn't even use all his abilities so no he didn't fight to his best either. As for Oro..It was his sharingan that kept Oro from doing anything to him not his power. We still never seen Oro's full power either. And Oro could have killed Sasuke had he wanted to instead of taking over his body.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Someone here has never had a debate with Quan. haermm

"Thanos has never been beaten with physical force, I GUESS THAT MEANS HE CAN'T!"

Dude quan is not the worst debater in the comic versus forum. We still have fangirl,asterphoenix( ) and that onslaught guy, monarocontry or whatever his name is.

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Dude quan is not the worst debater in the comic versus forum. We still have fangirl,asterphoenix( ) and that onslaught guy, monarocontry or whatever his name is. Aster Phoenix is banned nigga.

And Fangirl is not as bad as "No-Limits" Quan from what I have seen.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Aster Phoenix is banned nigga.

And Fangirl is not as bad as "No-Limits" Quan from what I have seen.

Well if u take into account fangirls old posts( as Nvr) then i think he/she is even worse.( im not saying that NO limits quan is a great debater). Particularly his/her on panel interpretation skills

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Well if u take into account fangirls old posts( as Nvr) then i think he/she is even worse.( im not saying that NO limits quan is a great debater). Particularly his/her on panel interpretation skills Wasn't Nvr like some gay dude who sang for the president, had an IQ of over 9,000, and made 800 quadrillion dollas a day, and Fangirl is a hawt black girl? mmm

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Wasn't Nvr like some gay dude who sang for the president, had an IQ of over 9,000, and made 800 quadrillion dollas a day, and Fangirl is a hawt black girl? mmm

No, we must be thinking of different people though they do have some similarities. the fangirl/nvr i know is is a gay dude who is in love superman and has an Iq that was not even high enough to register on the scale. Not sure who this hot blackgirl is though i woudnt mind meeting her.

Originally posted by ultimatethor
No, we must be thinking of different people though they do have some similarities. the fangirl/nvr i know is is a gay dude who is in love superman and has an Iq that was not even high enough to register on the scale. Not sure who this hot blackgirl is though i woudnt mind meeting her. You're an asshat, I was making fun of him by referencing things he has said(no shit, he really did say he sang for the president).

I thought Nvr was a Wonderwoman fanboy, not a Superman?

Fangirl posted a link to her myspace...It was a hot black chick so meh.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
You're an asshat, I was making fun of him by referencing things he has said(no shit, he really did say he sang for the president).

I thought Nvr was a Wonderwoman fanboy, not a Superman?

Fangirl posted a link to her myspace...It was a hot black chick so meh.

Seriously? sang for the president? And dude i saw the my space page but i hardly believe it.( He could have put any damn picture he wanted) it is not a coincidence that Nvr and fangirl seem to argue the exact same way on the exact same things. even asking for banned posters like Nvr to be reinstated. Fangirls identity is no secret. And oh yeah Nvr/fangirl is a DC fanboy in general.

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Seriously? sang for the president? And dude i saw the my space page but i hardly believe it.( He could have put any damn picture he wanted) it is not a coincidence that Nvr and fangirl seem to argue the exact same way on the exact same things. even asking for banned posters like Nvr to be reinstated. Fangirls identity is no secret. And oh yeah Nvr/fangirl is a DC fanboy in general. That's what he said.

Meh. I admit they are kinda similar.

Still...I just find Quanchi worse.

^how come xyz's names didnt come up here?

Who is that?

Yeah, who you talkin bout?

XYZ isn't a Naruto character.

Originally posted by Wil7
XYZ isn't a Naruto character. It's a good thing we were talking about posters in the comic versus forum then and not Naruto.

Well go to the comic versus forum then, don't be at the anime forum talking about xyz.

the first hokage should be godly, i mean he defeated madara

Dayum, bumping a year old thread >__>.

Tsunade's THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST.

Why is Jiraiya so low when Pain has stated if Jiraiya knew his secrets from the start he would of won? Maybe you people should actually watch Naruto or read the manga since most of you have no clue to what you are talking about.

The third raikage should definitely be way up there, he actually managed to completely tire out the eight tails, the tailed beast next down in power from the nine tailed fox.

This is a pretty old thread; check out the link to my signature where we've done a more total ranking of *everyone*, Kage and not, in the main Naruto thread

Well, we have them ranked but not really listed. That being up to the individual.

Your whole list is wrong. The 3rd Hokage was able to fight the 1st the second and Orochomau when he was pushing 70 years old and if the 1st and second werent already dead he would of killed them. Logic would assume he was far more powerful in his prime.

It has been awhile, anyone want to update rankings?

Tsunade seriously impresses with her Strength of a Hundred move.


Originally posted by big juggy man
Your whole list is wrong. The 3rd Hokage was able to fight the 1st the second and Orochomau when he was pushing 70 years old and if the 1st and second werent already dead he would of killed them. Logic would assume he was far more powerful in his prime.


He was fighting them when we *saw* they weren't using their big jutsu. They were being used like puppets and not very dynamically. Hashirama didn't use his wood clones (which he was famous for being awesome with, *only* Madara could see through them), his sleep pollen, his super-healing or his Wood Dragon. Tobirama didn't use his space-time jutsu or more than a little of his water.


Also, the only move he did that would've killed them is the suicidal soul-steal. Kage level characters won't be that badly hurt by tags, the only other attack Hiruzen landed, plus Hashirama did have super healing even when alive.

I prefer leaving Tsunade where she is with Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Then again they might deserve a bump as well.

Given how many times he's spammed it, Kakashi might warrant a bump for his Kamui alone.

But other than that I can't think of who would be a good addition except maybe Obito in his Zetsuit, who is in an awkward place anyway.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Your whole list is wrong. The 3rd Hokage was able to fight the 1st the second and Orochomau when he was pushing 70 years old and if the 1st and second werent already dead he would of killed them. Logic would assume he was far more powerful in his prime.

1st Hokage was clearly holding back quite a lot, probably because Orochimaru wanted to drag things out. Based on showings of characters Hashirama has beaten, Hiruzen simply does not compare. That and he did die in the fight, meaning his most noteworthy move is effectively a suicide bombing.

Right Aura angel the manga and the anime stated the 3rd Hokage was the most powerful Kage the village ever had peirod. You didnt write naruto so if something is said on panel then it is true until proven other wise. Nobody mentioned how cool one character is or some feats.

You opinion is the 1st was holding back. The fact is the 3rd was almost 70 and was still able to fight the 1st 2nd and Orochimaru. Enma also stated that the 3rd was pathetic compared to his prime yet he still could hold his own.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Right Aura angel the manga and the anime stated the 3rd Hokage was the most powerful Kage the village ever had peirod.

Wasn't it only something Iruka said?

And how would Iruka know the power of the 1st and 2nd anyway? Or even the 4th, who he likely never saw in battle.


A character can say something and be wrong.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Right Aura angel the manga and the anime stated the 3rd Hokage was the most powerful Kage the village ever had peirod. You didnt write naruto so if something is said on panel then it is true until proven other wise. Nobody mentioned how cool one character is or some feats.

You opinion is the 1st was holding back. The fact is the 3rd was almost 70 and was still able to fight the 1st 2nd and Orochimaru. Enma also stated that the 3rd was pathetic compared to his prime yet he still could hold his own.

Feats > one-time statement from a fallible character.
We have a statement from A that Minato was unsurpassed, and a statement from Kabuto that the greatness of Hashirama's power was incomprehensible to most people, just like that of the Sage of the Six Paths.

Edo Hashirama may as well have been Yamato in Edo Tensei form, and much like Edo Tobirama, he did not use everything in his arsenal. Hiruzen's defeat of those two during the Invasion of Konoha does not mean much now.

A said Minato wasnt surpased in speed he didnt say skill. Either way as I said Hiruzen was 70 and still was able to hold his own against 3 kage skilled people who were all in their prime bodies. Logic would state in his prime he was even better.

It was also stated that Hiruzen charkra was low because of age so you would assume that ment he could do attacks like he could when he was younger.

The Third was having his ass kicked by the two Kage.

Why do people act like he was kicking their asses?

They were toying with him.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Right Aura angel the manga and the anime stated the 3rd Hokage was the most powerful Kage the village ever had peirod. You didnt write naruto so if something is said on panel then it is true until proven other wise. Nobody mentioned how cool one character is or some feats.

You opinion is the 1st was holding back. The fact is the 3rd was almost 70 and was still able to fight the 1st 2nd and Orochimaru. Enma also stated that the 3rd was pathetic compared to his prime yet he still could hold his own.

Kay. Come back to me when Hiruzen can fight a battle so fierce that it literally means maps will have to be redrawn.

Neat. Come back to me when Hiruzen has moves that can literally down five kage level ninja like they're fodder.

Originally posted by big juggy man
A said Minato wasnt surpased in speed he didnt say skill. Either way as I said Hiruzen was 70 and still was able to hold his own against 3 kage skilled people who were all in their prime bodies. Logic would state in his prime he was even better.

It was also stated that Hiruzen charkra was low because of age so you would assume that ment he could do attacks like he could when he was younger.

A said Minato was unsurpassed. No mention of speed, just that he was unsurpassed. Try again ma boi.
And as I said, the Edo Tensei Hokages were not using everything in their arsenal. Neither was Orochimaru for that matter. He would have curb-stomped Hiruzen had he been serious throughout the fight.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Kay. Come back to me when Hiruzen can fight a battle so fierce that it literally means maps will have to be redrawn.

Neat. Come back to me when Hiruzen has moves that can literally down five kage level ninja like they're fodder.

Itachi can. vin

Originally posted by NemeBro
The Third was having his ass kicked by the two Kage.

Why do people act like he was kicking their asses?

They were toying with him.

Yea, seriously.


The only things he did successfully were put some tags on them (which would not take out ninja that tough; Sakura has tanked tags), and then the suicide attack.

I actually feel lied to, betrayed even. I went back and reread the fight recently, and was like,"Wtf is this shit? They're beating the piss out of him!"

How do you figure Oro, the 1st or the 2nd could have easily won? Did it state this in cannon? Did it state they were holding back? No you just assume he was holding back. And A did state nobody was fasted than the 4th. How would he know that the 4th was more powerful than the 3rd when he never met a prime 3rd, Madara Uchiha, Jiraiya, Hanzo, Pain or countless other characters.

Again the 3rd was 70 years old so we don't know what he could do in his prime. But we know that he was stated to be the greatest Hokage the leaf ever had in cannon.

Everything you are saying is your personal opinion. What you want to believe. What I am saying was stated in cannon. In his peak Hiruzen was the greatest Hokage the leaf ever had. Until he is brought back and is shown losing to somebody in his prime then that is that. No personal opinions. No characters like Madara Uchiha being brought back and given other chachaters skill set for storyline purposes.

Why wasn't the 3rd brought back? Why wasn't Jiraiya brought back? Storyline purposes. The high level leaf ninjas have to die so Naruto can become Hokage. Why didn't Zabuza just kill Kakashi them moment he trapped him in their first fight and then just kill Sasuke and Naruto? Then the show would be over and Zabuza and Haku were just there for storyline purposes to lose.

Other Kage's who were brought back to life were pretty smart. Why did only Madara figure away to remain Kabuto's jutsu wore off? Because they werent important for storyline purposes.

Saying look at this characters move set compared to another person doesnt prove they are better. Each character fights differently. Some characters arent important so they never show what they really can do before they can die.

What we can go on is what cannon states

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/123/4

"Do you intend to let the former Kages kill you bit by bit as they toy with you?"

Originally posted by big juggy man
How do you figure Oro, the 1st or the 2nd could have easily won? Did it state this in cannon? Did it state they were holding back? No you just assume he was holding back. And A did state nobody was fasted than the 4th. How would he know that the 4th was more powerful than the 3rd when he never met a prime 3rd, Madara Uchiha, Jiraiya, Hanzo, Pain or countless other characters.

Again the 3rd was 70 years old so we don't know what he could do in his prime. But we know that he was stated to be the greatest Hokage the leaf ever had in cannon.

Everything you are saying is your personal opinion. What you want to believe. What I am saying was stated in cannon. In his peak Hiruzen was the greatest Hokage the leaf ever had. Until he is brought back and is shown losing to somebody in his prime then that is that. No personal opinions. No characters like Madara Uchiha being brought back and given other chachaters skill set for storyline purposes.

Why wasn't the 3rd brought back? Why wasn't Jiraiya brought back? Storyline purposes. The high level leaf ninjas have to die so Naruto can become Hokage. Why didn't Zabuza just kill Kakashi them moment he trapped him in their first fight and then just kill Sasuke and Naruto? Then the show would be over and Zabuza and Haku were just there for storyline purposes to lose.

Other Kage's who were brought back to life were pretty smart. Why did only Madara figure away to remain Kabuto's jutsu wore off? Because they werent important for storyline purposes.

Saying look at this characters move set compared to another person doesnt prove they are better. Each character fights differently. Some characters arent important so they never show what they really can do before they can die.

What we can go on is what cannon states

http://boards.420chan.org/pol/src/1350875545917.png

Well that's a bit mean DP.

But let me use this for an example: "I'm five foot 8 inches."

If everyone were to take your view that statements are final and infallible, then this statement is unquestionable no matter the circumstances. On the surface it seems like it should be true since who would know better than I?

Well, there are ways I can be wrong. Like, say, I haven't taken a look at my height and have grown, rendering the data outdated and wrong. Now, the only character I can recall calling the Third the greatest of the Hokage would be Iruka, who, like with the A example you pointed out, was not old enough to know anyone else. It's very possible and likely that he is using outdated info or is misinformed.

Or it's just Iruka's personal opinion. But the more obvious answer is that Kishi did some retcons.

Lol Demonic Phoenix you are the retarded one. You are going to tell a character if they were holding back in a series you didn't create or write. Because you think this person was stronger then it must be right? Clearly something written in canon has no meaning. Because you think something.

****ing moron. I won't reply back because you are a complete jackass so post away.

Neme That is Orochimaru talking crap. How many characters in anime, manga or even dc and marvel talk shit while fighting? Juggernaut says he cant be stopped when he clearly can.

Again what is fact is Hiruzen was 70 was considered by Enma who seen him fight in his prime to be vastly inferior to his prime self. At 70 he was still considered the strongest Kage alive.

But as I said in another thread. Japanese comics contradict themselves alot. After the 3rd died everything was about Minato. If he was a better ninja than Jiraiya or Orochimaru then why did the 3rd want both of them to be kage over him or Minato stating himself that Jiraiya was best ninja he ever seen.

Then everything was about Pain even though he admit Jiraiya would of beat him if he knew about their 6 bodies.

Now everything is about Madara who admits the 1st was better than him.

The show acts like if you have a kekki genkai nobody can beat you but the show has shown various times that people like Jiraiya the 3rd, Hanzo and countless other ninjas who didnt have gimmick moves were extremely powerful.

Aurangel people could of came along and became better than the 3rd but not people who died before. How could they have came along and became better when they were dead?

Where do you think Iruka was getting his info? I am sure from people old enough to have seen the 3rd in his prime.


You can only use canon as fact until we actually see a character go all out. Since all of the characters that were brought back from the dead are dead again besides Madara we will never know what the 3rd could do. So we can only take other characters words for it.

If you're saying the manga contradicts itself a lot then that is the precise reason why we have to go by feats and not words.

Case in point, Tsunade was Hiruzen's pupil and did see him in his prime. She is amazed at the stuff Madara is doing and how her grandfather overcame it. If the Third was so impressive then she would probably be used to it. There is also Dan, who states that the only person capable of defeating Madara is Hashirama and he was also around during Hiruzen's hayday.

And since, according to you, the manga has several statements that contradict other statements, the only thing we can go on is feats. So yeah....that really was stupid.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Lol Demonic Phoenix you are the retarded one. You are going to tell a character if they were holding back in a series you didn't create or write. Because you think this person was stronger then it must be right? Clearly something written in canon has no meaning. Because you think something.

****ing moron. I won't reply back because you are a complete jackass so post away.

http://i.imgur.com/EmCDp.gif



AA is probably the only person here who's going to bother picking apart your facepalm-inducing arguments for now. You can't even troll properly, so you're not worth the effort.
As it stands, you have no (viable) counter-argument to A's statement about Minato being unsurpassed, or Kabuto's statement about Hashirama.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Neme That is Orochimaru talking crap. How many characters in anime, manga or even dc and marvel talk shit while fighting? Juggernaut says he cant be stopped when he clearly can.


Taunting isn't that rare. And Orochimaru isn't taunting on what's going to happen, but rather on what's already happened, namely Hiruzen's in a lot of trouble despite the Hokages playing with him.

Again who else besides Orochimaru said they were toying with him? Orochimaru is a cold blooded murderer so why would he have anybody toy with anybody? And lets say you are right he was toying with the 3rd. Again Hiruzen was 70 and stated on panel by King Enma to be a shell to what he was in his prime.

Orochimaru also stated in the manga is Hiruzen was 10 years younger meaning about 60 he would still easily be able to beat him.

Oh and you keep saying the 1st and 2nd werent going all out right? Who said Hiruzen wasnt going all out? He was fighting 2 people he loved and respected so who said he was so willing to fight them going all out even if he wasnt so old.

And AuraAngel you can't go be feats either then. Depending what story arc they will show who ever they want to be stronger.

Dan is Tsunade age so he never seen a prime Madara fight so how would he know who can be who? I am sure he is going by what he heard.

How many times have you seen Tsunade even try a long distance attack? Never right? And the Hokage is suppose to know at least 1000 jutsu. So it is logical that does know long distance moves, But everybody in Naruto fights their own way.

Fact according to the manga Hirzuen knows every jutsu the hidden leaf has. He was the longest living Hokage. Even at 70 he was still considered the strongest living Kage. So them all being defeated by Madara doesnt really say much does it. Orochimaru and Jiraiya were far superior to Tsunade which is why the 3rd never considered her for the Hokage.

Second some of the moves the Kage used against him would of killed him if he wasn't already dead.

For plot reasons the 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th Hokage couldnt be summoned or they would of butt raped Madara so let him face 5 kage who arent that great to began with.

Let's say Orchimaru spends his life trying to learn jutsu and then say he is a sannin then have him try to fight Itachi and lose .

Lets say Kakashi graduated from the ninja academy at 5 (which is quicker than anybody else on the show) one year later becume a chunnin with the aid of the Sharigan. Lets have Itachi graduate at 13 with the Sharigan but yet he is the superior ninja compared to Kakashi.

So you really can't trust things people say or do because they change to much.

Originally posted by big juggy man
So you really can't trust things people say or do because they change to much.

What they do doesn't change. You're just annoyed because Hiruzen has done nothing noteworthy, which is why he's ranked low.

And trust me guy, there is a lot in your post I could address that is hilariously wrong.

Why do we need more? Orochimaru was there and would know if there was toying involved. It only works as an insult if they *are* toying with him.

Just looking at the fight, they look like they were toying with him, so it's only confirming the visuals, too.


We've got a direct quote describing a fight where he was primarily on the defensive. We also have later stuff that indicates, yea, those two ninja could've done a lot more. Ditto Orochimaru, for that matter.

The facts line up with a direct IC statement.




The fact he was clearly on the defensive, getting tired, and being pushed hard? He didn't have the endurance to fight at his old max, that was very explicit.

The problem is, for all the hype, Hiruzen has not been shown to do much. Hell, he was even needing Minato to handle the 9 tails situation. He didn't do anything in that scuffle, and that was 12 years prior to Oro invading.

With showings, he may be above Tsunade in the Kage ratings at best. And maybe Tobirama, but that's cuz we don't know much about him. His ET still makes him formidable though.

Originally posted by socool8520
The problem is, for all the hype, Hiruzen has not been shown to do much. Hell, he was even needing Minato to handle the 9 tails situation. He didn't do anything in that scuffle, and that was 12 years prior to Oro invading.

He and the others did help drive Kurama back, but yea.

hmmm...I don't even remember him doing that. it looked like they were trying, but needed Minato to even move Kurama.

So that puts Minato above hiruzen. Hash is just because he defeated Madara and can control Kyuubi. Tobirama is just because he can do what Oro did, but he also seems to have at least some range attacks, one hand sign techs, and space/time (whatever they are)

Originally posted by socool8520
hmmm...I don't even remember him doing that. it looked like they were trying, but needed Minato to even move Kurama.

The other nin lead by Hiruzen did push K out of the village before Minato did his thing.

All in all, Minato did a lot more with Kurama, though.

Kay, i see that now. Still, it took Hiruzen plus many others to do a fraction of what Minato did solo. This doesn't make hiruzen look good at all.

Hiruzen was again in his late 50s by then and wasnt the Hokage anymore. Logic would assume he was no longer in his prime and that is why he stepped down. We are talking about the prime version of the character not a old washed up version of the character.

Why do we need more than Oro saying they were toying with him? The same reason on panel it stated in his prime the 3rd was the greatest Kage the leaf village ever had.

And why would I be angry that a character that I don't even like is considered a low level Kage on a site i go years without even coming too. Before the last week or so I havent been here all year.

Everything I say is written on panel. Everything most of you see just your opinion because you like another character.

If one character is said on panel to be stronger or admitting they couldn't beat another character then that is fact until shown other wise. I don't see why I am trying to explain this to a idiot with a child like brain like you anyway AuraAngel so just like other idiots who annoying me you go on ignore now. Bye Bye.

Originally posted by Q99
He and the others did help drive Kurama back, but yea.

I remember the anime had him actually pushing the Kyuubi out of Konoha proper with his staff. One hell of a feat. Pity it's anime-exclusive.

Originally posted by socool8520
The problem is, for all the hype, Hiruzen has not been shown to do much. Hell, he was even needing Minato to handle the 9 tails situation. He didn't do anything in that scuffle, and that was 12 years prior to Oro invading.

With showings, he may be above Tsunade in the Kage ratings at best. And maybe Tobirama, but that's cuz we don't know much about him. His ET still makes him formidable though.

Another problem with Hiruzen is that nearly nothing about him is backed up later on. All we know is what we've seen on-panel in his fight with Orochimaru, and that all those years ago he could have killed a much younger Orochimaru.
Before Madara's fight with the Kages, one could have made an argument about Prime Hiruzen being > other Hokage. Not anymore though.

And nah, even with showings, he's the weakest Hokage barring Tobirama. Heck, he's the weakest known Kage barring Tobirama.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Everything I say is written on panel.

Originally posted by big juggy man
And the Hokage is suppose to know at least 1000 jutsu.


Originally posted by big juggy man
Lets say Kakashi graduated from the ninja academy at 5 (which is quicker than anybody else on the show) one year later becume a chunnin with the aid of the Sharigan. Lets have Itachi graduate at 13 with the Sharigan but yet he is the superior ninja compared to Kakashi.

Provide evidence of these on panel and I shall concede.

But clearly Minato is the strongest character.

www.mangapanda.com/93-243-3/naruto/chapter-238.html

Lulz. Itachi had already graduated and was a friggin ANBU Captain at the age of 13.

Also, yeah, Minato was definitely the strongest man as it was stated on panel.

Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi in history, so much so that he was admired as the God of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime and was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha ever had. Even in his old age, he was also said to be the strongest of all the five Kage at the time of his death. Enma commented on his battle with Orochimaru, saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime, even though he had clearly been able to hold his own against Orochimaru and two former Hokage without losing his composure. Even in his old age, his chakra was noted for being very strong, causing a dense effect on the atmosphere when released; furthermore, he was known for having immense reserves of chakra in his youth. He was also the longest living and longest reigning Hokage. Hiruzen also had keen senses, being able to track down the former Hokage under Hashirama Senju's Bringer-of-Darkness Technique.

Hiruzen was also called The Professor (プロフェッサー, Purofess&#257, due to his mastery of all forms of shinobi combat, and his vast knowledge of techniques, purportedly knowing all the techniques within Konoha. In the anime, even Danzō, Hiruzen's life-long rival, openly acknowledged the Hokage's sheer prowess in utilising any technique as unsurpassed. His title also came from creating a considerable arsenal of original techniques; one of which was the Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique. With this technique, he could create a thousand clones of a single thrown shuriken in an instant to overwhelm the opponent with the extreme difficultly in evading them all. This method also meant that he didn't have stock up on a lot of shuriken. To watch over the village, he would use the Telescope Technique, allowing him to observe others through his crystal ball over long distances. Despite his diminished reserves of chakra in his old age, he also showed great chakra control, needing only the minimum amount of chakra to use each technique.

Taijutsu

In terms of taijutsu, Hiruzen displayed a very high level of it in old age. He was able to counter Tobirama and Hashirama in close combat, despite them being in their prime in the Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation. He could lay an explosive tag on each of them without them or Orochimaru who was controlling them even knowing. After summoning Enma, he could break Hashirama's Wood Release branches with ease.

Even when robbed of his sight from the genjutsu Bringer-of-Darkness Technique, he could still defend himself from Hashirama's and Tobirama's assaults, blocking all their attacks to prepare for his Dead Demon Consuming Seal. After sealing both former Hokage, he faced Orochimaru in single combat. Despite his sealing parts of his soul away in the Shinigami, as well as fighting for a prolonged amount of time before he engaged Orochimaru one on one, he effortlessly disarmed him of his sword.

Narutopedia is not a definitive source.

Note comments like "was said". We know some of the sources actually saying that are fairly questionable.

He was adept at a very wide range of jutsu and a brilliant fighter. However, the 1st Hokage has been shown to waaaay surpass him in power.



Against Orochimaru and two former Hokage toying with him

we need a flashback for Hiruzen like we got for Minato.

Again Q99 that is your opinion. Cannon states Hiruzen was better than the 1st. You believe the 1st and 2nd were toying with him because Orochimaru said so. Well all know that character would never lie. As I said who said Hiruzen was going all out? Did cannon state this? And how many times do I have to say this. He was 70 freaking years old. He wasn't even close to his prime.

Marwash22. They do need to do a flash back. I heard the creator or Naruto say this. Alot of earlier fights weren't as good as he wanted them to be. Be it the Zabuza vs Kakashi fight or the Hiruzen vs Orcohimaru fight.

More precisely, canon has fallible characters say it. Canon also gives Hashirama better feats by far, and people call him an unrivaled ninja and all that.



And because their manner of fighting suggested toying, and because Orochimaru would mock someone about their weaknesses. He was pretty much just confirming what we saw.



Yea, and we don't know exactly how strong his prime was, but he needs to be stronger than we've seen to even get up to normal Kage level.

Back when he was 60, he was still outdone by Minato.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Cannon states Hiruzen was better than the 1st.
"A's statement about Minato being unsurpassed, or Kabuto's statement about Hashirama."

So canon states that the 1st, 3rd and 4th were all stronger than each other?

That's my statement innit?

Yes, there are statements that Minato was unsurpassed, that Hiruzen was stronger than the other Hokages, and that Hashirama's strength was great enough that most people considered it to have been mythical.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That's my statement innit?
Maaaybee~ blushing


Like it matters, we all know Naruto's going to be the strongest Hokage. Yeah, take that thread.

Nah. It was decreed long ago that an Uzumaki will be the Hokage's wife, ergo, Sasuke will be the strongest Hokage.

As soon as naruto is named Hokage, he would become the strongest Hokage. Currently, I figure him as the top 3 strongest Ninjas in the Manga in overall power with Hash in second. Intelligence is the only thing he lacks but he has Shikamaru for that. Battle wise, he has been shown to make pretty good strategies on the fly. I'd still put Minato or Hiruzen above him startegy wise though only because we don't know much about the other Kages

Originally posted by BloodRain
"A's statement about Minato being unsurpassed, or Kabuto's statement about Hashirama."

So canon states that the 1st, 3rd and 4th were all stronger than each other?

Sure.

Poor Tobirama.

^ That guy sure did get the shaft huh? lol