Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Aragorn and Vader are fighting each other in Balin's Tomb.

Stipulations-

For the purposes fo this thread, vader can not use any offensive force powers. Aragorn's Narsil is resistant to the lightsabers heat, so it can not be cut through. This is a swords only fight to the death.

Who wins?

EDIT- I forgot something, thanks Bardock. Vader can use the force to amplify his abilities so that he fights as well as he did in RotJ. Only the movies's feats can be used for both characters.

Vader.

Unless he can't use his superior reflexes and passive force powers either. And even then...maybe if you don't give Vader a sword Aragorn has a chance.

You think that Vader's sword skills > Aragorn's? I'm not nescesarilly disagreeing, but what do you base that on?

And I edited to make it clearer.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
You think that Vader's sword skills > Aragorn's? I'm not nescesarilly disagreeing, but what do you base that on?

And I edited to make it clearer. Mostly the speed of the final fight against Luke. I guess that's the only thing you will let us go by if you say ROTJ, Vader?

Nah, pretty much all of his 'saber duels in the OT itself. Aragorn gets all of his feats from the three movies as well.

Aragorn, he is much more experienced than Darth Vadar. Aragorn never had force abilities to rely on so if you take away Vadars Force abilities and turn him into a simple swordsman, Aragorn will destroy him.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Nah, pretty much all of his 'saber duels in the OT itself. Aragorn gets all of his feats from the three movies as well.

Does Vader have an actual sword or his lighsabre that just can't cut through Aragons?

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Aragorn, he is much more experienced than Darth Vadar. Aragorn never had force abilities to rely on so if you take away Vadars Force abilities and turn him into a simple swordsman, Aragorn will destroy him. He's not taken away his force abilities. As for the more experience, how exactly did you figure that? Anakin beat one of the top duelists in the Jedi Order without aggressive use of the force (admittedly, ROTJ Vader supposedly is a bit worse than ROTS Vader, according to Lucas), he has the experience and he fights very well against one of the most powerful/talented Jedi in ROTJ as well.

That's not really saying much considering Luke at that point was very inexperienced and only had a couple years of pseudo- training.



He has his lightsaber, but it can not cut through Aragorn's sword.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
That's not really saying much considering Luke at that point was very inexperienced and only had a couple years of pseudo- training.


He had, become quite worthy and talented according to both the Emperor and Vader by the time. Also, Vader killed a Master in ANH. And again, the fight was, imo, superior to what I saw of Aragorn in all LOTR

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
He has his lightsaber, but it can not cut through Aragorn's sword.

Still, a lighsaber is so much easier to handle and so much lighter that Aragorn has a severe disadvantage with that alone.

Originally posted by Bardock42
He's not taken away his force abilities. As for the more experience, how exactly did you figure that? Anakin beat one of the top duelists in the Jedi Order without aggressive use of the force (admittedly, ROTJ Vader supposedly is a bit worse than ROTS Vader, according to Lucas), he has the experience and he fights very well against one of the most powerful/talented Jedi in ROTJ as well.

What exactly is non offensive force abilities then...,force jump? I also feel that Aragorn is more experienced because he is much older than Vadar.

Also, i'm just going from what i've seen in the movie's. I saw Aragorn do more in three movies than i saw vadar do in six, (Excluding "offensive" force abilities).

Originally posted by Bardock42
Vader by the time. Also, Vader killed a Master in ANH.

I dont know if that counts, Obi wan let Vadar kill him

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
What exactly is non offensive force abilities then...,force jump? I also feel that Aragorn is more experienced because he is much older than Vadar.

I'd assume his reflexes, his speed, his strength, his agility and all other stats that are tweaked by the force. Anything that would not be considered a Force Attack in an RPG I guess.


Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Also, i'm just going from what i've seen in the movie's. I saw Aragorn do more in three movies than i saw vadar do in six, (Excluding "offensive" force abilities).

Oh, I think no one would doubt that ROTS Vader owns the craü out of Aragorn any day of the week. At least to me it's obvious why Blax chose ROTJ

He was talented yes, because had the skywalker potential. That doesn't nescesarily mean that his bladework was Jedi level.



A master who was a shadow of his former self with a lightsaber and hadn't used one in years?



I dunno. Aragorn fought hordes of orcs and Uruk-hai by himself, defeated Lurtz who was above average in skill, and managed to defeat the majority of the Nazgul by himself on Weathertop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJqrWssQSxI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDQU9iPxO6o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4XMgQUqLZ0

I don't think that what we've seen from vader in combat speed is far superior to Aragorn's blade work. I'm not exactly sure who would win but I think it's pretty even.

EDIT- Pretty much any Jedi from the PT would destroy Aragorn in a duel, but I figured that Vader, being a deal slower then them and using a form that is made primarily of heavy two handed strikes and the like, would be more even.

As for offensive powers, I mean no push, pull, choke, grabbing Aragorn and other objects. He can not use any abilities that would affect either their surroundings or Aragorn himself.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
He was talented yes, because had the skywalker potential. That doesn't nescesarily mean that his bladework was Jedi level.

True, but his speed was enormous anyways, and he had at least mastered powers like the Force Jump. Well, I might have to watch the fight again, but I think it was very fast and excellent fighting.


Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
A master who was a shadow of his former self with a lightsaber and hadn't used one in years?

That's never stated I think.



Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
I dunno. Aragorn fought hordes of orcs and Uruk-hai by himself, defeated Lurtz who was above average in skill, and managed to defeat the majority of the Nazgul by himself on Weathertop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJqrWssQSxI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4XMgQUqLZ0

I don't think that what we've seen from vader in combat speed is far superior to Aragorn's blade work. I'm not exactly sure who would win btu I think it's pretty even.

I agree that Vaders skills are not really shown in the OT except for the last fight. But just because Aragorn has more showings doesn't mean that they are more impressive than Vaders max. If we exclude PT altogether this is more blind guessing I think (I'd still go for Vader), if we include PT Vader defeated or stood up to some of the best duelist Jedi ever.

But I am not sure how to determine it exactly. Will Vader be able to use his anger and hatred as a boost?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'd assume his reflexes, his speed, his strength, his agility and all other stats that are tweaked by the force. Anything that would not be considered a Force Attack in an RPG I guess.




Oh, I think no one would doubt that ROTS Vader owns the craü out of Aragorn any day of the week. At least to me it's obvious why Blax chose ROTJ


Yeah, i was taking Vadar's reflexes into account but i compared that to the Aragorns lineage and decided the two aspects cancelled each other out or that one had a slight advantage over the other but nothing to advantageous.

I agree, if this were sith lord Anakin, Aragorn would be decimated within moments. If Vadar were able to use his sith powers i would probably even give him the win there, although, i still think it would be close. Without the ability to use his force powers i see Vadar, merely as a Swardsman. Vadar may be a master swordsman but so it Aragorn and i think Aragorn is much more agile.

For reference:

f4XMgQUqLZ0

Originally posted by ragesRemorse

I agree, if this were sith lord Anakin, Aragorn would be decimated within moments. If Vadar were able to use his sith powers i would probably even give him the win there, although, i still think it would be close. Without the ability to use his force powers i see Vadar, merely as a Swardsman. Vadar may be a master swordsman but so it Aragorn and i think Aragorn is much more agile.

I don't really think we can comment on Vader's agility much, his sword style does not really depend on fast movies as the one in ROTS. And Anakin Skywalker was not just some master swordsman, he was on of the best in an Order of freaking superheroes. And though he might have lost speed and strength and force power and agility (debatable, I suppose) he surely didn't lose the skill.

Originally posted by Bardock42
. And Anakin Skywalker was not just some master swordsman, he was on of the best in an Order of freaking superheroes. And though he might have lost speed and strength and force power and agility (debatable, I suppose) he surely didn't lose the skill.

What about mace windu, Yoda and OBi Wan...,didn't Obi Wan spank Anakin?

Originally posted by Bardock42




Still, a lighsaber is so much easier to handle and so much lighter that Aragorn has a severe disadvantage with that alone. A plasma blade weighs nothing, plus Vader has precog, he will know what Aragorn is gonna do before he does it.


Vader pwns.

Just gonna note that the lightsaber being easier to handle doesn't mean a whole lot considering Vader'modified form V consists of using heavy single strikes. It's not like he can use that weightlessness to twirl it around and stuff like he used too.

As for pre-cog... he was defeated by a man who had never actually recieved any real lightsaber training.

Jutst sayin'

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
What about mace windu, Yoda and OBi Wan...,didn't Obi Wan spank Anakin? Not sure what movie you watched. Obi Wan defeated Anakin, by better tactical planning...he didn't whoop his ass in a second.

And he's not the best, but "one of the".

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Just gonna note that the lightsaber being easier to handle doesn't mean a whole lot considering Vader'modified form V consists of using heavy single strikes. It's not like he can use that weightlessness to twirl it around and stuff like he used too.

As for pre-cog... he was defeated by a man who had never actually recieved any real lightsaber training.

Jutst sayin'

With the most powerful force ability ever. Who also, happens to be Vaders son who wanted him to join ergo didn't fight his best. And Luke tapped into the Dark Side to get an incredible boost. Lets not forget them apples, shall we?

Vader pwns him w/ one hand. Is it just me or is Aragorns movie form similar to Luke's in ESB?

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Just gonna note that the lightsaber being easier to handle doesn't mean a whole lot considering Vader'modified form V consists of using heavy single strikes. It's not like he can use that weightlessness to twirl it around and stuff like he used too.

As for pre-cog... he was defeated by a man who had never actually recieved any real lightsaber training.

Jutst sayin' Luke had precog, when he blocked the blaster bolts from the speeder bike on Endor he proved this. Also on Jabba's sail barge.

Vader was defeated by his son, who was no slouch, and had his strength enhanced by the dark side.

Unless Vader can greatly increase his speed via the Force when fighting (which I don't recall seeing), Aragorn is far quicker and agile, so he takes this. Aragorn also seems the better swordsman.

I never understood why Vader was made into slow and clumsy moving figure, you'd think with all that technology, they could have upgraded him with faster and more agile robotics.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
A plasma blade weighs nothing

True, but the light saber does produce a gyroscopic effect, if I'm not mistaken.

Not really relevant to the fight, just throwing it in there.

Originally posted by Robtard
Unless Vader can greatly increase his speed via the Force when fighting (which I don't recall seeing), Aragorn is far quicker and agile, so he takes this. Aragorn also seems the better swordsman.

I never understood why Vader was made into slow and clumsy moving figure, you'd think with all that technology, they could have upgraded him with faster and more agile robotics. He is actually extremely skilled and also fast in the comics and probably also books. He wasn't intended as clumsy robot...they just didn't have the ability to show him as agile then.

I'm telling you, when the live action show comes out (seeing as Lucas lies about everything) we will probably see a CGI Vader kick some serious ass.

Originally posted by Bardock42
He is actually extremely skilled and also fast in the comics and probably also books. He wasn't intended as clumsy robot...they just didn't have the ability to show him as agile then.

I'm telling you, when the live action show comes out (seeing as Lucas lies about everything) we will probably see a CGI Vader kick some serious ass.

I've no doubt, as he's supposed to be the blackest badass in the universe, but the movie is the bar we subscribe to. Luke was shown to jump and spin around like a fairy in ROTJ, why didn't they use those same effects on Vader?

Look forward to it, as I'd love to see a Vader live up to his aura of badassery. It's set right after Ep3?

Originally posted by Robtard
I've no doubt, as he's supposed to be the blackest badass in the universe, but the movie is the bar we subscribe to. Luke was shown to jump and spin around like a fairy in ROTJ, why didn't they use those same effects on Vader?

Look forward to it, as I'd love to see a Vader live up to his aura of badassery. It's set right after Ep3? Yeah, betweeen Ep 3 and Ep 4

But supposedly will not center around Vader or Obi Wan, but more minor characters (maybe Boba Fett or Quinlan Vos)

Their is one thing not really being taken into account here.

Vader's strength and mass.

Combine his great size and strength, along with the amping abilities of the Force, by blocking Vader's blows he will be continuously driven back.

He was able to drive Luke back in ESB with one hand.

He defeated Obi Wan, one of the best duelists in the Order, although Obi Wan was likely out of practice I admit.

Vader is a master duelist, even by Jedi standards, although his agility and athletism suffered when he lost his limbs.

Vader wins IMO.

Just how much is Vader's strength augmented via his cybernetic implants?

One smaller cybernetic arm was enough to restrain and choke a full grown man and bring him to his knee, a grown man who was a Jedi Master.

Now, two larger cybernetic arms, combined with the weight and size the cybernetic parts give him, combined with the Force amping powers, will make him much stronger than Aragorn IMO.

It's sadly not in the movies.

I totally agree that EU Vader would treat Aragorn like a punching back.

With his film showing it's hard to go either way.

All I named was movie shit.

EU Vader would crush anyone in LotR.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
All I named was movie shit.

EU Vader would crush anyone in LotR.

Not the Witch-king of Angmar, unless Vader can somehow 'Force' a vagina onto himself.

Doesn't work that way, Robbie.

The whole "No man can slay me" thing was a prophesy, not a spell. If a man were to take an elvish weapon and jam it through his face he'd die. But the prophecy stated that he would not die by the hand of a dude... so he talked a lot of shit.

Irregardless, I still don't necessarily think he can beat anyone in LotR, at least not without the force.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Doesn't work that way, Robbie.

The whole "No man can slay me" thing was a prophesy, not a spell. If a man were to take an elvish weapon and jam it through his face he'd die. But the prophecy stated that he would not die by the hand of a dude... so he talked a lot of shit.

Irregardless, I still don't necessarily think he can beat anyone in LotR, at least not without the force.

Blackie, we go with what's in the movies, not the books. "No man can kill him", ergo, Vader's penis makes him useless.

But for this fight, Vader would be crushed in one hit from Witch-king's flail. (No outside Force powers and the saber can't cut through weapons)

The movie doesn't specify whither it's a spell or a prophecy, and WK is a fallible third party character. So it's all speculation. Ha.

Exactly, so we go by what is said/we know. 'No man can kill him", period.

Edit: Another difference between the books and movies, Gandalf was scared shitless of him in the movies, it correlates with him being nigh indestructible.

Originally posted by Robtard
Exactly, so we go by what is said/we know. 'No man can kill him", period.


Except that the Witch-King is a fallible character and is also arrogant. Shall we assume that any bad guy that says "haha. No one can stop me now" is, in fact, unstoppable? What we saw was that Merry stabbed him with a knife and he got ****ed up instantly. He was on his knees and everything.So even if he wasn't killed, he was crippled.

Crippled by a midget I might add.

You wanna know another funny fact about the Witch King?

He was scared off by Aragorn wielding a torch.

Wow, he's like, uber powerful.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Their is one thing not really being taken into account here.

Vader's strength and mass.

Combine his great size and strength, along with the amping abilities of the Force, by blocking Vader's blows he will be continuously driven back.

He was able to drive Luke back in ESB with one hand.

He defeated Obi Wan, one of the best duelists in the Order, although Obi Wan was likely out of practice I admit.

Vader is a master duelist, even by Jedi standards, although his agility and athletism suffered when he lost his limbs.

Vader wins IMO.

Vadar may have have augmented strength but i doubt that his strength is much greater than an Orakei's. Aragorn became a master warrior in a land where Humans are amongst the weakest beings.

I doubt that strength would have much to do in a battle against Aragorn and Vadar. With Vadar unable to use any of his sith powers i think this battle comes down to swordsmanship, endurance and agility. We can argue all day about Vadar's pre-cog capabilities but from what i've seen in the trilogies this has never been properly explained. I believe it is to vague to implement as an advantage for Vadar. The only concrete examples of pre-cog ability that i have seen in the MOVIE'S, is sensing emotions or thoughts from weak minds.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not sure what movie you watched. Obi Wan defeated Anakin, by better tactical planning...he didn't whoop his ass in a second.

And he's not the best, but "one of the".



Yeah, i was just making a point. In the movie's we are told that Mace Windu and Yoda are the most renowned saber duelists. Obi Wan is a typical Jedi master, yet he was able to fight Anakin to a stalmate and ultimately beat Anakin by exploiting such an obvious weakness.


We really need to stop using the death of OBi Wan scene, in ANH as evidence to reinforce Vadars badassness. Firstly, that scene is so poorly executed it can be interpreted in several different ways. Also, Obi-Wan was far from his prime. He hadn't touched a lightsaber for over twenty years.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Except that the Witch-King is a fallible character and is also arrogant. Shall we assume that any bad guy that says "haha. No one can stop me now" is, in fact, unstoppable? What we saw was that Merry stabbed him with a knife and he got ****ed up instantly. He was on his knees and everything.So even if he wasn't killed, he was crippled.

Never said he couldn't be hurt, just that "no man can kil him". Sorry, playing by the rules, ergo, Vader couldn't kill him.

Originally posted by Robtard
Never said he couldn't be hurt, just that "no man can kil him". Sorry, playing by the rules, ergo, Vader couldn't kill him. I don't recall that being a rule, I recall that being said about him, but only by people that happen to not have reality bending powers.

I think Gandalf said it and he was (visibly) scared of him and Gandalf is a total badass who felled a Balrog. Witch-king also said it himself, right before he was slain by a woman.

Just playing by the forum rules, ergo Vader can't kill the Lord of the Nazgul. You and the two darkies will just have to deal with it.

Originally posted by Robtard
I think Gandalf said it and he was (visibly) scared of him and Gandalf is a total badass who felled a Balrog. Witch-king also said it himself, right before he was slain by a woman.

Just playing by the forum rules, ergo Vader can't kill the Lord of the Nazgul. You and the two darkies will just have to deal with it. Nah, you wrong. Back to Aragorn now.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah, you wrong. Back to Aragorn now.

It's killing you that you can't prove I'm wrong, I know. 'Witch-king of Angmar', even sounds more badass than 'Darth Vader.'

But yeah, Aragorn would defeat a ROTJ Vader who couldn't use the Force outside of himself.

Originally posted by Robtard
It's killing you that you can't prove I'm wrong, I know. 'Witch-king of Angmar', even sounds more badass than 'Darth Vader.'

Well, the mere fact that you can't prove that he is invincible to men, should be enough, really. And no, not even the cool Gandalf saying it, makes it true.

Originally posted by Robtard
But yeah, Aragorn would defeat a ROTJ Vader who couldn't use the Force outside of himself.

Nah, Vader still is faster and a better duelist and has the force boosing him.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, the mere fact that you can't prove that he is invincible to men, should be enough, really. And no, not even the cool Gandalf saying it, makes it true.



Nah, Vader still is faster and a better duelist and has the force boosing him.

Gandalf (the badass he is) who stood alone up to a Balrog and eventually defeated it was scared of the Witch-king, do you think he said "no man can kill him" while soiling himself just for shits and giggles? It was said by more than one person and subsequent actions proved that it was indeed true. Sorry, playing by the forum rules, just accept it.

From what is seen in ROTJ, he isn't all that fast and his attacks aren't really that amazing. Anakin/Vader (pre injury) in the prequels seems a far more impressive fighter, he could beat Aragorn.

I'm fairly sure the Witch King actually cannot be killed by any man. Merry's a hobbit, who was wielding a blade of the Westernesse, so it did more damage, and he was eventually killed by Eowyn - a woman. The fact is that it was not only said by the Witch King himself, but also by other characters in the film.

Though this is all pretty irrelevant, seeing as Aragorn did not at any time kill the Witch King. Unless of course, this isn't a a fight to the death, but a game of cat and mouse.

I brought up the Witch-king when DarkieJaxx said "EU Vader could defeat anyone in the LOTR". His "no man can kill him" claus trumps Vader's badassery.

Originally posted by Robtard
Gandalf (the badass he is) who stood alone up to a Balrog and eventually defeated it was scared of the Witch-king, do you think he said "no man can kill him" while soiling himself just for shits and giggles? It was said by more than one person and subsequent actions proved that it was indeed true. Sorry, playing by the forum rules, just accept it.

But it's not going by the forum rules. Just because it is said doesn't make it true. Nothing in the movie we saw would suggest that a Witch King that has been sliced into thousand different pieces and buried at different places would survive. Besides, Vader would still beat him regardless.

Originally posted by Robtard
From what is seen in ROTJ, he isn't all that fast and his attacks aren't really that amazing. Anakin/Vader (pre injury) in the prequels seems a far more impressive fighter.

He was a more impressive fighter, but that doesn't mean that Aragorn could beat Vader, even from what we have seen in ROTJ I'd say he'd beat Aragorn from the movies and that wasn't even Vader at his best.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But it's not going by the forum rules. Just because it is said doesn't make it true. Nothing in the movie we saw would suggest that a Witch King that has been sliced into thousand different pieces and buried at different places would survive. Besides, Vader would still beat him regardless.

He was a more impressive fighter, but that doesn't mean that Aragorn could beat Vader, even from what we have seen in ROTJ I'd say he'd beat Aragorn from the movies and that wasn't even Vader at his best.



You're ignoring that it was also implied, when it was Eowyn (a woman) who finally killed him. Vader being a human and having a penis would disqualify him from meeting the set guidelines of the prophecy.

Aragorn is far more agile and seems that faster striker. Considering Vader is gimped in his Force abilities and his weapons greatest assest of cutting through anything is also gimped, Aragorn has the advantage, imo.

Originally posted by Robtard
You're ignoring that it was also implied, when it was Eowyn (a woman) who finally killed him.

So? That doesn't prove anything.

Originally posted by Robtard
Vader being a human and having a penis would disqualify him from meeting the set guidelines of the prophecy.

Again, that's arguable. But even if he couldn't "kill" him, he could beat him beyond good and evil.

Originally posted by Robtard
Aragorn is far more agile and seems that faster striker. Considering Vader is gimped in his Force abilities and his weapons greatest assest of cutting through anything is also gimped, Aragorn has the advantage, imo.

Vader was an excellent duellist (sabre on sabre, meaning no cutting through) and just because his style doesn't rely on fast, agile moves doesn't mean it is worse. It's just stronger and more efficient.

Originally posted by Bardock42
So? That doesn't prove anything.

Again, that's arguable. But even if he couldn't "kill" him, he could beat him beyond good and evil.

Vader was an excellent duellist (sabre on sabre, meaning no cutting through) and just because his style doesn't rely on fast, agile moves doesn't mean it is worse. It's just stronger and more efficient.

So your reasoning is, it was just said for glamour, Gandalf just happened to be scared of him and a woman just happened to be the one that killed him... dude, add it all up and it relates to a prophecy of specific events having to happen. It's like arguing that Vader could pull Excaliber from the stone because he's really strong and has the Force; prophecy would trump his badassness there too.

Yeah, Vader could give him a good trouncing, but that's beside my original point.

I've no doubt, but when you compared (ROTJ) Vader's saber/sword wielding skills to Aragorn's in the trilogy, Aragorn is far more impressive. This is also a gimped Vader.

Originally posted by Robtard
So your reasoning is, it was just said for glamour, Gandalf just happened to be scared of him and a woman just happened to be the one that killed him... dude, add it all up and it relates to a prophecy of specific events having to happen. It's like arguing that Vader could pull Excaliber from the stone because he's really strong and has the Force; prophecy would trump his badassness there too.

If you accept that it is a prophecy and not an innate skill then that doesn't include Vader. It just means that in their universe he will not be killed by a man, but Vader wasn't part of this prophecy so, in their fight Vader could kill him. And again, as I said, it's not only about killing him. Vader could, without a doubt, beat him in a fight even if he was unable to kill him (which is not a skill that the Witch King had, just a fact that had been prophesized in the LOTR world)

Originally posted by Robtard
Yeah, Vader could give him a good trouncing, but that's beside my original point.

Well, he could beat him. That's what Jaxx said, isn't it?

Originally posted by Robtard
I've no doubt, but when you compared (ROTJ) Vader's saber/sword wielding skills to Aragorn's in the trilogy, Aragorn is far more impressive. This is also a gimped Vader.

Yeah but not gimped in the way he was gimped in ROTJ. And I guess it's more impressive, but the point is that Vader doesn't go for jumping around and be all flashy, he's just effective.

Originally posted by Bardock42
If you accept that it is a prophecy and not an innate skill then that doesn't include Vader. It just means that in their universe he will not be killed by a man, but Vader wasn't part of this prophecy so, in their fight Vader could kill him. And again, as I said, it's not only about killing him. Vader could, without a doubt, beat him in a fight even if he was unable to kill him (which is not a skill that the Witch King had, just a fact that had been prophesized in the LOTR world)

Well, he could beat him. That's what Jaxx said, isn't it?

Yeah but not gimped in the way he was gimped in ROTJ. And I guess it's more impressive, but the point is that Vader doesn't go for jumping around and be all flashy, he's just effective.

In a versus fight, it would logically transfer over and Vader's manhood would factor in. Otherwise we could argue that since the Witch-king isn't part of the SW universe, the Force will not work on him.

He said "Vader could crush anyone in the LOTR."

I'm not saying Aragorn would win in style points. I'm saying his agility and speed could take down a gimped Vader.

Originally posted by Robtard
In a versus fight, it would logically transfer over and Vader's manhood would factor in. Otherwise we could argue that since the Witch-king isn't part of the SW universe, the Force will not work on him.

That's ridiculous. Otherwise Arthur Dent could not be killed by Sidious, Gandalf and Batman.

Originally posted by Robtard
He said "Vader could crush anyone in the LOTR."

Hmm, I kinda disagree with that....he could crush the Witch King though.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'm not saying Aragorn would win in style points. I'm saying his agility and speed could take down a gimped Vader.

As I said before wouldn't know what to base it on taking just the movies...Vader hasn't been tested in a way to argue that. Taking EU into account....nah, totally not.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's ridiculous. Otherwise Arthur Dent could not be killed by Sidious, Gandalf and Batman.

Hmm, I kinda disagree with that....he could crush the Witch King though.

As I said before wouldn't know what to base it on taking just the movies...Vader hasn't been tested in a way to argue that. Taking EU into account....nah, totally not.

Just as rediculous as you saying Vader's manhood wouldn't be factored into the prophecy, see?

Wait, he said "EU Vader" more specifically. If by "crush" you mean, crush his helmet, then yes, he just couldn't kill the Witch-king.

I believe he specified ROTJ Vader, meaning Vader is capable of doing what he did in that movie, with pre-set gimps in place.

Originally posted by Robtard
Just as rediculous as you saying Vader's manhood wouldn't be factored into the prophecy, see?

Wait, he said "EU Vader" more specifically. If by "crush" you mean, crush his helmet, then yes, he just couldn't kill the Witch-king.

I believe he specified ROTJ Vader, meaning Vader is capable of doing what he did in that movie, with pre-set gimps in place.

No.

He could crush every bone in his body, crush his head, crush his penis and then crush anything around him to crush him some more. I guess you can argue that wouldn't kill him, but he'd still be kinda crushed.

Yeah, but as I said we didn't see him at his max. Why would Vader's holding back because Luke is his son apply to the Witch King?

Originally posted by Bardock42
No.

He could crush every bone in his body, crush his head, crush his penis and then crush anything around him to crush him some more. I guess you can argue that wouldn't kill him, but he'd still be kinda crushed.

Yeah, but as I said we didn't see him at his max. Why would Vader's holding back because Luke is his son apply to the Witch King?

Actually, it is just as ridiculous to say Vader isn't affected by the prophecy claus as it is to say With-king isn't affected by the Force since they're from different realms respectively.

I took crush as "soundly kill", but yeah, Vader probably could crush.

While I agree that Vader is more of a badass than what is seen, we do go with what is seen, so that's why I say Aragorn has the advantage here over a gimped Vader. Not sure what you're talking about there with luke/holding back/Withc-king.

Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, it is just as ridiculous to say Vader isn't affected by the prophecy claus as it is to say With-king isn't affected by the Force since they're from different realms respectively.

I took crush as "soundly kill", but yeah, Vader probably could crush.

While I agree that Vader is more of a badass than what is seen, we do go with what is seen, so that's why I say Aragorn has the advantage here over a gimped Vader. Not sure what you're talking about there with luke/holding back/Withc-king.

No, dude, it's kinda like saying "Vader can't be killed by anyone else because we know how he died".

We are in agreement then.

The point is we can't see how good Vader is in ROTJ. And my other point is that, even though we can't, what he shows in the final fight with Luke would still trump what Aragorn does.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, dude, it's kinda like saying "Vader can't be killed by anyone else because we know how he died".

We are in agreement then.

The point is we can't see how good Vader is in ROTJ. And my other point is that, even though we can't, what he shows in the final fight with Luke would still trump what Aragorn does.

Na, what I said. You're saying Vader wouldn't be subject to the prophecy claus because he isn't of the LOTR realm. I say rubbish as it pretains to these Vs. fights.

Yes, physically crush, not kill.

We do see how good Vader is; he's rather slow and clumsy and wouldn't beat Aragorn, imo. But again, this is a gimped Vader.

Originally posted by Robtard
Na, what I said. You're saying Vader wouldn't be subject to the prophecy claus because he isn't of the LOTR realm. I say rubbish as it pretains to these Vs. fights.

Yes, physically crush, not kill.

We do see how good Vader is; he's rather slow and clumsy and wouldn't beat Aragorn, imo. But again, this is a gimped Vader.

Well, I am more saying that the prophecy was that not a man will kill him (and by extension that no man can kill him). I'd argue that a fight with Vader is an occurence that's not factored in in such a prophecy, because as we know how Vader died we could just argue "The Witch King can't kill him, because we know how he really died". Or, if you are bend on the prophecy part, we could argue "The Witch King can't kill ESB Vader since he has to bring Balance to the Force and did not, yet, ergo, can't die". It's ridiculous. If the Witch King had a skill that makes him invulnerable to what males do to him, then fair enough, he doesn't though, at least there's no prove of him having that anywhere in LOTR.

I tend to disagree. But, meh, Vader would beat him 11 out of 10 times.

H-how is he slow and clumsy, the fight in ROTJ is at least as fast as what Aragorn does...and again, that fight happened against his SON, an advantage that Luke had that the Witch King would not.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I am more saying that the prophecy was that not a man will kill him (and by extension that no man can kill him). I'd argue that a fight with Vader is an occurence that's not factored in in such a prophecy, because as we know how Vader died we could just argue "The Witch King can't kill him, because we know how he really died". Or, if you are bend on the prophecy part, we could argue "The Witch King can't kill ESB Vader since he has to bring Balance to the Force and did not, yet, ergo, can't die". It's ridiculous. If the Witch King had a skill that makes him invulnerable to what males do to him, then fair enough, he doesn't though, at least there's no prove of him having that anywhere in LOTR.

I tend to disagree. But, meh, Vader would beat him 11 out of 10 times.

H-how is he slow and clumsy, the fight in ROTJ is at least as fast as what Aragorn does...and again, that fight happened against his SON, an advantage that Luke had that the Witch King would not.

I believe the prophecy works as a sort of protection.

11 out of 10 is probably right, just not kill him.

I watched that clip you posted of ROTJ, that swordsmanship isn't all that great and Vader seems blockish. Luke did have some fancy flips though.

Originally posted by Robtard
I believe the prophecy works as a sort of protection.

11 out of 10 is probably right, just not kill him.

I watched that clip you posted of ROTJ, that swordsmanship isn't all that great and Vader seems blockish. Luke did have some fancy flips though.

Fair enough, different views I guess.

-

Well, that's kinda my point, Vader didn't intend to kill Luke at all.

Well, with the Witch King: any sword, or attack that is done upon him would do absolutely nothing, by any man - according to the novels. Though this comes about by prophecy of Glorfindel, prophecy is pretty much gospel in LOTR, as it relies heavily on the influence of fate etc. As for the films, the insinuation is to be the that the same rules apply as the novels, as he summarises that rule himself.

The thing to be decided would be that if such a prophecy would apply to this fight; that would probably depend on where they actually had the fight.

Ha, German. Told you prophecy trumps Vader, it's like a power or special ability.

If you're giving Vader all his abilities and powers as in the EU, it's only logical to transfer all of the Witch-king's abilities and powers as well, ie Vader's Y-chromosome makes him inept when facing he who can not be killed by man, the Captain of Despair.

So what fallible third party character's say is fact now?

Maybe no man in the weak ass LotR universe can kill him, but an average Jedi with Force Powers in SW would crush him.

Seriously, you all should really stop using No-Limits fallacies and taking fallible third party character's words as fact.

Of course, I am well aware you are just trolling.

So stfu and gtfo.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Vadar may have have augmented strength but i doubt that his strength is much greater than an Orakei's. Aragorn became a master warrior in a land where Humans are amongst the weakest beings.

I doubt that strength would have much to do in a battle against Aragorn and Vadar. With Vadar unable to use any of his sith powers i think this battle comes down to swordsmanship, endurance and agility. We can argue all day about Vadar's pre-cog capabilities but from what i've seen in the trilogies this has never been properly explained. I believe it is to vague to implement as an advantage for Vadar. The only concrete examples of pre-cog ability that i have seen in the MOVIE'S, is sensing emotions or thoughts from weak minds. You doubt it based on...What? From what I remember, Uruk-hai were more well known for stamina than raw strength. And none of the Uruks are quite as skilled or powerful as Vader from what I remember.

Endurance? Vader's great strength pushing against Aragorn will tire Aragorn quicker than Vader. Swordsmanship? Vader mastered all the skills of saber combat very quickly, and bested Count Dooku, one of the single best duelists in SW, in single saber combat. Agility Vader won' take, but I believe Vader makes up for it with his other attributes. Dude...Pre-Cog in the movies allows them to block lasers and deflect them.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
You doubt it based on...What? From what I remember, Uruk-hai were more well known for stamina than raw strength. And none of the Uruks are quite as skilled or powerful as Vader from what I remember.

Well, no, they were known for both.

The issue here is whether the law of each world is carried with the character. As the law of Middle Earth is rather fate based, it has nothing really to do with the power of the character they face, it means more than that. So you going on about "weak ass characters" is unnecessary. Also, as there is no such thing as the "force" in Middle Earth, which I think is the most unimaginative and lame character trait ever, but that's opinion (just like yours about LOTR), should that count as a trait?

So the issue really isn't about the holes in narrative, but about the fact that each world is very different. In Middle Earth, it's a pretty complicated affair in which a lot has to be taken into account and metaphysical concepts play a part, it's different in Star Wars as it's more literal based.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Well, no, they were known for both.

The issue here is whether the law of each world is carried with the character. As the law of Middle Earth is rather fate based, it has nothing really to do with the power of the character they face, it means more than that. So you going on about "weak ass characters" is unnecessary. Also, as there is no such thing as the "force" in Middle Earth, which I think is the most unimaginative and lame character trait ever, but that's opinion (just like yours about LOTR), should that count as a trait?

So the issue really isn't about the holes in narrative, but about the fact that each world is very different. In Middle Earth, it's a pretty complicated affair in which a lot has to be taken into account and metaphysical concepts play a part, it's different in Star Wars as it's more literal based. How strong is an Uruk-Hai exactly?

So because the LotR world is more complex in the..."confrontations" shall we say since it is fate based, but have not shown the power that SW characters have, what are you exactly saying? The Force does not exist in Middle Earth, true, but why should that matter? Wizards, Maiar, and Elves don't exist in SW, does that really make a difference in a vs. thread?

Each world is different, but fact is, in terms of the variety and magnitude of the powers of the specific character's in the fiction, they cannot compare to Star Wars.

The strongest in LotR like Morgoth or the Valar have not even compared to ones such as Palpatine in terms of magnitude of power when it comes to battle in all honesty.

I kinda see what you are saying though.

Sorry if I sounded kinda biased, it is just that some of the LotR fans I see tend to think far too highly of the power of their favorite fiction.

A question. Thread starter specified "no offensive force powers" for Vader, no question there. Offensive force powers, to me, are force lightning, force choke, force hold, attacks of that nature.

Is Vader relieving Aragorn of his sword with the force an offensive force attack?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
A question. Thread starter specified "no offensive force powers" for Vader, no question there. Offensive force powers, to me, are force lightning, force choke, force hold, attacks of that nature.

Is Vader relieving Aragorn of his sword with the force an offensive force attack?

An answer. Think clearly, if Vader relieves Aragorn of his sword, well there wouldn't be much of a fight at all, right? It just makes sense...

I think force powers shouldn't even be allowed.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
How strong is an Uruk-Hai exactly?

So because the LotR world is more complex in the..."confrontations" shall we say since it is fate based, but have not shown the power that SW characters have, what are you exactly saying? The Force does not exist in Middle Earth, true, but why should that matter? Wizards, Maiar, and Elves don't exist in SW, does that really make a difference in a vs. thread?

Each world is different, but fact is, in terms of the variety and magnitude of the powers of the specific character's in the fiction, they cannot compare to Star Wars.

The strongest in LotR like Morgoth or the Valar have not even compared to ones such as Palpatine in terms of magnitude of power when it comes to battle in all honesty.

I kinda see what you are saying though.

Sorry if I sounded kinda biased, it is just that some of the LotR fans I see tend to think far too highly of the power of their favorite fiction.

Well, the Uruk Hai are stronger than Orks and also have increased stamina and a resistance to sunlight, making them pretty much hard as nails.

The fact is that such versus battles don't really allow for the subtlety of the characters to be fully examined, which is somewhat of a shame, but inevitable. If we can only take what is literally shown, we miss out on a wealth of possibilities, but so be it.

The difference the point about the force makes, is that the power of prophecy is of similar magnitude, but is understated and subtle. However, we are shown the power of prophecy in LOTR, just not in the instance of the Witch King (although he is never killed by a man).

Obviously, yes, a lot of LOTR fans are like that, Star Wars fans can be massively annoying as well, though - particularly when it comes to dismissing other works of fiction.

Originally posted by Scythe
An answer. Think clearly, if Vader relieves Aragorn of his sword, well there wouldn't be much of a fight at all, right? It just makes sense...

I think force powers shouldn't even be allowed. Agreed, 110%, but it has been stated that Vader cannot use offensive force powers. I would think disarming an opponent is a defensive force atttack.

Another thought I had was when the thread starter specified that Aragorn's sword was resistant to Vader's lightsaber, isn't this against movie versus forum rules? After all, a lightsaber can cut through steel blast doors and pretty much anything it comes in contact with, right?

Seems that whatever the combatants respective weapons can do in the movies, they should be able to do in this fight.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Agreed, 110%, but it has been stated that Vader cannot use offensive force powers. I would think disarming an opponent is a defensive force atttack.

Another thought I had was when the thread starter specified that Aragorn's sword was resistant to Vader's lightsaber, isn't this against movie versus forum rules? After all, a lightsaber can cut through steel blast doors and pretty much anything it comes in contact with, right?

Seems that whatever the combatants respective weapons can do in the movies, they should be able to do in this fight.

There has to be a great equalizer, otherwise these match-ups would be one sided.

Originally posted by Scythe
There has to be a great equalizer, otherwise these match-ups would be one sided. Yes, but at what expense? Altering the capabilities of ones weapon?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yes, but at what expense? Altering the capabilities of ones weapon? It's the only way, other than not choosing specific characters.

...RJ you make me doubt my own position in this thread.

I know right? I'll be back, I'm gonna make a Mr. Bean Vs. Neo thread...

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Well, the Uruk Hai are stronger than Orks and also have increased stamina and a resistance to sunlight, making them pretty much hard as nails.

The fact is that such versus battles don't really allow for the subtlety of the characters to be fully examined, which is somewhat of a shame, but inevitable. If we can only take what is literally shown, we miss out on a wealth of possibilities, but so be it.

The difference the point about the force makes, is that the power of prophecy is of similar magnitude, but is understated and subtle. However, we are shown the power of prophecy in LOTR, just not in the instance of the Witch King (although he is never killed by a man).

Obviously, yes, a lot of LOTR fans are like that, Star Wars fans can be massively annoying as well, though - particularly when it comes to dismissing other works of fiction. So I would guess the average Uruk is at least as strong as the strongest human.

While that is true, on the other hand, doing what you are suggesting will make some just start speculating out of their asses to the point that the actual debate is so off track and nonsensical it might as well not exist.

True enough, however in vs. matches(at least from my experience) such prophecies tend to be ignored for the sake of the vs. thread. For instance, let's just say it was prophecised that Frodo was the one who would kill Sauron(or disembody, whatever), said prophecy would be ignored for the sake of the vs. thread. Also, one must also wonder the creator of said prophecies, if it was the Valar for instance, then their prophecy could be overuled by a more powerful character in a vs. thread, like make it Galactus vs. Sauron, and the Valar made a prophecy that only Frodo could kill him(not saying this actually happened, just an example), Galactus, who is much more powerful than the Valar, would be able to overule their prophecy.

...But now I am starting to ramble haha.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
...RJ you make me doubt my own position in this thread. Well isn't that the point? To raise doubts and questions?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
A question. Thread starter specified "no offensive force powers" for Vader, no question there. Offensive force powers, to me, are force lightning, force choke, force hold, attacks of that nature.

Is Vader relieving Aragorn of his sword with the force an offensive force attack? Force Push and Force Pull are offensive force powers.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Force Push and Force Pull are offensive force powers. Well, seeing as how Vader would follow up with a saber attack, it certainly would be in this battle.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well isn't that the point? To raise doubts and questions? ...Dude.

Dude.....what? Am I like spoiling this for you?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Dude.....what? Am I like spoiling this for you? It's nothing personal, you agreeing with one does tend to make the more reasonable posters on KMC a bit uneasy. It's not actually bad though, makes one double check their arguments thoroughly.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's nothing personal, you agreeing with one does tend to make the more reasonable posters on KMC a bit uneasy. It's not actually bad though, makes one double check their arguments thoroughly. And what exactly does me arguing that Vaders lightsaber can cut through anything, therefore it should be able to cut through a steel sword have to do with his argument? Hmm?

Thats right, NOTHING.

I am gonna love your response to this, should be very......well, full of bullshit.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Another thought I had was when the thread starter specified that Aragorn's sword was resistant to Vader's lightsaber, isn't this against movie versus forum rules? After all, a lightsaber can cut through steel blast doors and pretty much anything it comes in contact with, right?



No, it's not.Special stipulations are allowed in fights in the interest of keeping things fair. This thread isn't about what would happen if Vader met Aragorn in a dark Couracant alley way, everyone knows he'd hack his sword in half then destroy him with the force. That's not the point. This thread is more about Vader's dueling abilities versus Aragorn's sword fighting abilities. Not Aragorn vs. Vader in a straight-up match.

I would have just given Vader a Katana, but considering Katana's are heavier and wield differently it wouldn't be fair. This way both combatants can use what they're best with and everything works out.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
A question. Thread starter specified "no offensive force powers" for Vader, no question there. Offensive force powers, to me, are force lightning, force choke, force hold, attacks of that nature.

Is Vader relieving Aragorn of his sword with the force an offensive force attack?

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
No, it's not.Special stipulations are allowed in fights in the interest of keeping things fair. This thread isn't about what would happen if Vader met Aragorn in a dark Couracant alley way, everyone knows he'd hack his sword in half then destroy him with the force. That's not the point. This thread is more about Vader's dueling abilities versus Aragorn's sword fighting abilities. Not Aragorn vs. Vader in a straight-up match.

I would have just given Vader a Katana, but considering Katana's are heavier and wield differently it wouldn't be fair. This way both combatants can use what they're best with and everything works out. No, I know that, I know handicapping ones abilities is commonplace here, but altering ones weapons?

It's not a big deal, it just struck me as odd.

And I missed the post about force pull, my bad.

Altering Vader's weapons is essentially just handicapping him. I had to nerf him enough so that Aragorn would be an equal match.

But a lightsaber can not actually cut through anything, there are objects strong enough to resist it. So really you can just think of it as me upgrading Aragorn's weapon moreso then nerfing Vader,

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Altering Vader's weapons is essentially just handicapping him. I had to nerf him enough so that Aragorn would be an equal match.

But a lightsaber can not actually cut through anything, there are objects strong enough to resist it. So really you can just think of it as me upgrading Aragorn's weapon moreso then nerfing Vader, Is it stated in the SW movies that there are some things that a saber cannot cut through?

No, but it's never stated or even implied that it can cut through anything, either. To assume that it can cut through anything because there has yet to be anything in the movies that it has failed to cut through, is a no-limit fallacy. Though the Magna-gaurds staffs are made of phrick metal, and a lightsaber can not cut through that...

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
No, but it's never stated or even implied that it can cut through anything, either. To assume that it can cut through anything because there has yet to be anything in the movies that it has failed to cut through, is a no-limit fallacy. Though the Magna-gaurds staffs are made of phrick metal, and a lightsaber can not cut through that... But arent magna staffs surrounded in some electric field or something?

They had electric pulses at the very ends, to stun enemies when they hit, but that is only on the very ends. The staff itself is made out of lightsaber resistant phrick alloy. The pulses do not protect it from a lightsaber, the alloy does.

Looks Like you are right, dude:


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/IG-100_MagnaGuard


What the frick is phrik metal? haermm




http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Phrik

Phrik was a metal used by the Galactic Empire to armor its dark troopers. Phrik was extremely durable, capable of absorbing numerous blaster shots before melting.

Phrik alloy was also used later by the New Republic in a limited amount to enforce armoring on their more advanced capital ships.

I learned something new

There are many metals which are resistant or immune to lightsabers, such as Cortosis or Mandalorian armor.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And what exactly does me arguing that Vaders lightsaber can cut through anything, therefore it should be able to cut through a steel sword have to do with his argument? Hmm?

Thats right, NOTHING.

I am gonna love your response to this, should be very......well, full of bullshit.

It's a stupid point. You accept that his offensive force powers get taken away, but argue about the lightsabre. Childish and inconsistent.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
So I would guess the average Uruk is at least as strong as the strongest human.

While that is true, on the other hand, doing what you are suggesting will make some just start speculating out of their asses to the point that the actual debate is so off track and nonsensical it might as well not exist.

True enough, however in vs. matches(at least from my experience) such prophecies tend to be ignored for the sake of the vs. thread. For instance, let's just say it was prophecised that Frodo was the one who would kill Sauron(or disembody, whatever), said prophecy would be ignored for the sake of the vs. thread. Also, one must also wonder the creator of said prophecies, if it was the Valar for instance, then their prophecy could be overuled by a more powerful character in a vs. thread, like make it Galactus vs. Sauron, and the Valar made a prophecy that only Frodo could kill him(not saying this actually happened, just an example), Galactus, who is much more powerful than the Valar, would be able to overule their prophecy.

...But now I am starting to ramble haha.

I was never suggesting that such a thing should be taken fully into account in a versus match, it would be impossible.

The point about prophecies is pretty much null, because as I've said it depends where this fight happens. Within Middle Earth, everything is bound by fate, it would seem. So a prophecy from a trustworthy a notable character such as Glorfindel, would be directly related to what can and cannot happen. So him saying that the Witch King shall not fall by the hand of man, pretty much means that it is not his fate to die by the hand of man, so he won't, no matter who it is.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I was never suggesting that such a thing should be taken fully into account in a versus match, it would be impossible.

The point about prophecies is pretty much null, because as I've said it depends where this fight happens. Within Middle Earth, everything is bound by fate, it would seem. So a prophecy from a trustworthy a notable character such as Glorfindel, would be directly related to what can and cannot happen. So him saying that the Witch King shall not fall by the hand of man, pretty much means that it is not his fate to die by the hand of man, so he won't, no matter who it is. That's incorrect though. Since a fight with Vader would be a hypothetical. If Vader wins the Witch King would die by the hand of a man, if the Witch King wins Vader won't bring balance to the force. Either way a prophecy is broken, but since it is hypothetical that shouldn't matter. The Witch King was prophecised not to die by the hand of a man, not because he couldn't, but because he, in fact, didn't.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's incorrect though. Since a fight with Vader would be a hypothetical. If Vader wins the Witch King would die by the hand of a man, if the Witch King wins Vader won't bring balance to the force. Either way a prophecy is broken, but since it is hypothetical that shouldn't matter. The Witch King was prophecised not to die by the hand of a man, not because he couldn't, but because he, in fact, didn't.

Yes, but that prophecy is somewhat of a binding contract. If the fate of Middle Earth deemed that the Witch King would not die by the hand of man, that fate could not be changed (within Middle Earth).

But yes, I see your point about it being hypothetical. Presumably, as I've said - this prophecy breaking would be dependant on where the fight would take place.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Yes, but that prophecy is somewhat of a binding contract. If the fate of Middle Earth deemed that the Witch King would not die by the hand of man, that fate could not be changed (within Middle Earth).

But yes, I see your point about it being hypothetical. Presumably, as I've said - this prophecy breaking would be dependant on where the fight would take place. Well, as I unerstand it, a prophecy (in LOTR) is a revelation of how the future timeline will happen. It's kinda no different to us knowing how Vader dies, just that it was stated within the work of fiction.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, as I unerstand it, a prophecy (in LOTR) is a revelation of how the future timeline will happen. It's kinda no different to us knowing how Vader dies, just that it was stated within the work of fiction.

If in Star Wars, that prophecy is not a breakable thing, that would be correct.

This prophecy (Glorfindel's) is a bit complicated, though. As Glorfindel isn't just some elf that gets mentioned in the book and film; Glorfindel was sent back from Valinor by the Valar, and thus is sort of a divine figure. The idea of fate in Middle Earth is much like the idea of fate in Christianity, I think. So Glorfindel having prophesied that the Witch king will not die by the hand of man, it means that he cannot, because that is not what fate intended; if this is similar to the way the system works in Star Wars, then forgive me, I really don't know very much about it.

But yeah, in my opinion - if Vader was to fight the Witch King in Star Wars world (whatever that may be called), he would completely dominate the Witch King. Whereas if Vader was to fight the Witch King in Middle Earth, it would be a different story.

But here is the thing, since in LotR everything is tied down by fate, then Vader should not even be able to exist to fight the Witch King, since he does not even exist in LotR.

For these fights to exist, it should be taken into account that both characters are fighting in a neutral area where they get their powers, abilities etc to their full potential (unless specifically gimped by the thread starter).

Edit: But honestly, I brought in the Witch-king and his prophecy clause as more of a joke to counter the "Vader will crush anyone in LOTR" comment.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's a stupid point. You accept that his offensive force powers get taken away, but argue about the lightsabre. Childish and inconsistent. I ask again, what does this have to do with what you said earlier? What does this have to do with someone agreeing with me on something? Hmm?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I ask again, what does this have to do with what you said earlier? What does this have to do with someone agreeing with me on something? Hmm? Nothing

It's a separate point. I am able to make them.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nothing

It's a separate point. I am able to make them. Then you should be more clear next time. That makes what you initially said baiting, BTW.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Then you should be more clear next time. That makes what you initially said baiting, BTW.

Does it now. Got anything to say about the fight or are you going to continue to post off-topically?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Does it now. Got anything to say about the fight or are you going to continue to post off-topically? You started the off topic posting, I am merely returning the favor.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You started the off topic posting, I am merely returning the favor. Shh now, clown. Originally posted by Robtard
For these fights to exist, it should be taken into account that both characters are fighting in a neutral area where they get their powers, abilities etc to their full potential (unless specifically gimped by the thread starter).

Edit: But honestly, I brought in the Witch-king and his prophecy clause as more of a joke to counter the "Vader will crush anyone in LOTR" comment.

That doesn't help us with whether the prophecy is a skill or...a prophecy though.


Anyways, I still say there was too little on screen to judge either way.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Shh now, clown.
haermm Dude you are SO predictable.


As far as the fight goes, Vader all the way. He is a superior swordsman, IMO, and even if Aragorn were on par with him, precog gives him the edge.

Firstly, God I look like a nerd in this thread.

Secondly, Aragorn would probably lose against Vader. But then, they're massively different characters to pit up against each other, which can sometimes work - but with LOTR, for anyone to win against pretty much anyone from Star Wars, you'd have to appreciate the power of suggestion (which is pretty impossible in a versus match).

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Firstly, God I look like a nerd in this thread.

Secondly, Aragorn would probably lose against Vader. But then, they're massively different characters to pit up against each other, which can sometimes work - but with LOTR, for anyone to win against pretty much anyone from Star Wars, you'd have to appreciate the power of suggestion (which is pretty impossible in a versus match). Nerd.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Firstly, God I look like a nerd in this thread.


Na, it just shows that you both read and understood Tolkien's work.

I value both you and chill very much.....BUT VADER WOULD ****ING RAPE THE WITCH KING 10/10

Originally posted by Bardock42
I value both you and chill very much.....BUT VADER WOULD ****ING RAPE THE WITCH KING 10/10

With the exception of the prophecy somehow working against Vader as a sort of uber-protection for the Witch-king, yes, he (EU VAder) would litterally tear the Witch-king to pieces, along with both armies.

Originally posted by Robtard
With the exception of the prophecy somehow working against Vader as a sort of uber-protection for the Witch-king, yes, he (EU VAder) would litterally tear the Witch-king to pieces, along with both armies. I think ROTJ Vader would be enough, actually.

I doubt ROTJ could tear apart both armies lol.

But going into the EU, you have characters making wormholes, draining the life on planets, and using Telekinesis to control a black hole.

SW EU is fvcked up.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I doubt ROTJ could tear apart both armies lol.

Haha, yeah, I missed that part.