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This is pre-suit ROTS Darth Vader vs. ROTS Darth Sidious. Now, before you insult me and go, "DIS IZ SPITE D00D UR DUM," I'd like to point out that there's a Dooku vs. Sidious in which over 30 people sided with Dooku being victorious.

1. Sabers Only.
2. Force Only.
3. All-Out.


Fight takes place on the surface of Malachor V.


I'll post my opinion after some others do.

I think Pre-suit Vader was stated as being 80% of Sidious, so logically my vote goes to Sidious. So many people siding with Dooku in the other thread makes no sense to me either. :/

That's Vader while in his suit. A full potential Vader would have been 200% of Sidious' power, had he not gotten injured and had been fully trained.

A full potential vader would be twice the terror of DE palpatine.

Is this presuit vader btw?

Originally posted by Enyalus
This is pre-suit ROTS Darth Vader vs. ROTS Darth Sidious. Now, before you insult me and go, "DIS IZ SPITE D00D UR DUM," I'd like to point out that there's a Dooku vs. Sidious in which over 30 people sided with Dooku being victorious.

1. Sabers Only.
2. Force Only.
3. All-Out.


Fight takes place on the surface of Malachor V.


I'll post my opinion after some others do. 1. Vader.
2. Palpatine.
3. Palpatine.


ROTS Anakin was not as powerful as ROTS Sidious, that's all there is to it. Give someone who has such control over the Dark as Palpatine, hand him Malachor's power and...

Vader's not got the Force-power here, but saber skills I think he's got over Sidious.

Ah, see TG...that's about what I would have given out.

1. Sabers- Vader, 7/10.
2. Force - Sidious, 10/10.
3. All-Out - Tie, 5/10.

That would be my general consensus.

ROTS Vader had not yet reached his potential yet. He still had a long way to go. Yoda said Kenobi was not strong enough to fight Sidious. So Sidious would win, because he had a far more control and more mastery over the force.

Don't be surprised if you do get insults, because some people seem to get a little too serious over these debates. I however think it is very immature to insult others over a debate.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
ROTS Vader had not yet reached his potential yet. He still had a long way to go. Yoda said Kenobi was not strong enough to fight Sidious. So Sidious would win, because he had a far more control and more mastery over the force.

Don't be surprised if you do get insults, because some people seem to get a little too serious over these debates. I however think it is very immature to insult others over a debate. Thanks for bringing into this thread something that didn't need to be. And you wonder why we fling insults.

And while there's nothing wrong with the results you just ascertained, there's that A>B>C argument again. In Star Wars, there can be extenuating circumstances. It's like saying Mace defeated Palpatine, so Mace can defeat Yoda becuase Palpatine defeated Yoda. That doesn't take in Vaapad, Shatterpoint, the environment etc.

And before you take this as an insult, contemplate the option that it's constructive criticism. In fact, contemplate all possible, feasible options in a Vs. fight.

If you want to see great A>B>C Logic, here goes:

Dooku was fast enough and skilled enough to compete in a duel with Yoda, more than once. Yoda is as fast as Sidious and were basically even in their duel. Good Anakin destroyed Dooku by not only being stronger than Dooku but faster. As George Lucas apparently stated, the Dark Side is stronger than the Light Side (source: Gideon). Therefore, pre-suit Vader is stronger than 'in the zone' Anakin. Strong enough to tool the highly touted Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig one-handed while using his other hand to kill Cin's best pupil.

Thus, Vader takes Sidious in sabers. By a fair margin.

Windu actually really did not beat Sidious. Sidious faked weakness as stated by George Lucas in the commentary. Besides Sidious, Windu, and Yoda are all very close. Kenobi would never be close to Sidious's level, or Yoda would not of told him that he would never be strong enough to fight Sidious. Windu vs Yoda would make a great arguement because they are both very close. Kenobi vs Sidious would not be a good arguement.

he faked weakness after being genuinely overpowered and defeated by mace.... (really)

I go by what is said and done in the movies, or other canon sources. If that is A>B>C logic well than that is the only thing we can go by. We can not just go by assumptions.

Originally posted by truejedi
he faked weakness after being genuinely overpowered and defeated by mace.... (really)

That is very much so debateable.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That is very much so debateable.
indeed. but we wouldn't come to an agreement. its been discussed enough. we should leave it alone.

I not saying Windu didn't beat Sidious in dueling, but there are good arguements that say he didn't, and there are good arguements that say he did. I don't think Windu could have killed him even without Anakin. Maybe Windu is the better duelist.

Originally posted by Enyalus
"DIS IZ SPITE D00D UR DUM,"

No way vader wins any of this.

Eh, he could win the saber. Could.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That is very much so debateable.

George Lucas has, to my knowledge stated that "Mace overpowered Sideous". So no, Mace genuinely had him beat.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
George Lucas has, to my knowledge stated that "Mace overpowered Sideous". So no, Mace genuinely had him beat.

Can you name the source? Again im not arguing that Windu did not win the saber duel. But just because you win a saber duel does not mean you win the entire fight. It is clear that Mace was struggling against the lightning, and would have eventually been overpowered by it had Sidious not stopped the attack. So i say where Sidious could not beat him with a saber, he could have beat him with the force, even without Anakin's help

Considering Sideous was melting his own face and begging for mercy and eventually cut off his own stream of lightning, I see no reason to not assume that Mace's Vapaad super-conductive loop didn't just pwn Sidoeus. As for the source, I'm sure Gideon probably has it.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
George Lucas has, to my knowledge stated that "Mace overpowered Sideous". So no, Mace genuinely had him beat.
Hm well think of it this way he did sense Anakin's approach and it would be kinda hard to seduce Anakin standing over four Jedi Master's corpses

Sidious got beat in the saber battle; the novel says that Mace was 'overpowered' and was 'choking on ozone', and according to Lucas, Sidious feigned his weakness. If the force fight continued, Mace would've died.

Sidious wins all 3, by the way. With great difficulty in the saber battle, though.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Sidious got beat in the saber battle; the novel says that Mace was 'overpowered' and was 'choking on ozone', and according to Lucas, Sidious feigned his weakness. If the force fight continued, Mace would've died.

Ah, there's where I disagree. Mace would've lost. Sidious would have died.

You left out the part about Anakin standing right there, and looking up to Mace as a role model. When Sidious hits Yoda with his lightning, it only knocks him out for a few moments. When Sidious hits Mace with his full powered Force Lightning - even completely defenseless and in sever agony from having his arm cut off - he isn't kill by the lightning. He's killed by the fall. So Sidious' lightning in ROTS doesn't kill or disintegrate powerful Force-users instantly. Not even close.

In this situation, his saber would be pushed back, he'd have to give ground and/or drop to his knees (or something), and would still have his Force shields in place.

Once it's clear Sidious is the aggressor and not feigning any weakness, I Have no doubt Anakin would've stepped in on Mace's side. Remember, just moments before he said he would have liked to kill Palpatine himself.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Ah, there's where I disagree. Mace would've lost. Sidious would have died.

You left out the part about Anakin standing right there, and looking up to Mace as a role model. When Sidious hits Yoda with his lightning, it only knocks him out for a few moments. When Sidious hits Mace with his full powered Force Lightning - even completely defenseless and in sever agony from having his arm cut off - he isn't kill by the lightning. He's killed by the fall. So Sidious' lightning in ROTS doesn't kill or disintegrate powerful Force-users instantly. Not even close.

In this situation, his saber would be pushed back, he'd have to give ground and/or drop to his knees (or something), and would still have his Force shields in place.

Once it's clear Sidious is the aggressor and not feigning any weakness, I Have no doubt Anakin would've stepped in on Mace's side. Remember, just moments before he said he would have liked to kill Palpatine himself.

You'll have to prove that Mace wasn't killed by the force of the lightning; when hitting Yoda, it was a small gout, and while hitting Mace, it was a lengthened one, obviously, probably in order to torture him; Mace was then thrown out of the window. You can't prove that he didn't already die when he was blasted out of the window.

It's up to speculation, honestly, but we know that Sidious is capable of slaughtering people with lightning, and Mace doesn't even come close in regards to a force contest.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
You'll have to prove that Mace wasn't killed by the force of the lightning; when hitting Yoda, it was a small gout, and while hitting Mace, it was a lengthened one, obviously, probably in order to torture him; Mace was then thrown out of the window. You can't prove that he didn't already die when he was blasted out of the window.

Erm, he was screaming with his face contorted in pain as he was thrown from the window? And no, I doubt Sidious wanted to torture him. As he states, "Power! Unlimited POWER!" Which, we can probably take as him unleashing the full force of his lightning upon Mace, allowing him to feel the full strength of the Dark Side.

EDIT: And yeah, capable of slaughtering people. But he doesn't display anything to indicate he can kill strong Force users with his lightning instantly or even close to instantly in the movies.

Sidious at full power in ROTS would beat Anakin at full power.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Considering Sideous was melting his own face and begging for mercy and eventually cut off his own stream of lightning, I see no reason to not assume that Mace's Vapaad super-conductive loop didn't just pwn Sidoeus. As for the source, I'm sure Gideon probably has it.

As i have proven before the lightning did not affect Sidious in the sense that it hurted him. Sidious "begging for mercy" was all fake. Windu struggling against the lightning was not fake.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Erm, he was screaming with his face contorted in pain as he was thrown from the window? And no, I doubt Sidious wanted to torture him. As he states, "Power! Unlimited POWER!" Which, we can probably take as him unleashing the full force of his lightning upon Mace, allowing him to feel the full strength of the Dark Side.

EDIT: And yeah, capable of slaughtering people. But he doesn't display anything to indicate he can kill strong Force users with his lightning instantly or even close to instantly in the movies.

Did you miss the part where Mace was screaming in agony?

...

I doubt whether it matters if Palpatine's Lightning kills instantly or not. What are the chances of someone conjuring a defence when Palpatine's lightning is wrecking their body?

In my experience, one has to be living and breathing in order to scream.



What are the chances of Anakin standing by and watching Sidious kill Mace? The reason he helped Sidious in the first place was because from Anakin's viewpoint, Mace was being unfair, about to assassinate him, and held a clear advantage in their battle. With that situation reversed, I very seriously doubt Anakin would allow Sidious to harm Mace further or kill him, without stepping in on Mace's behalf.

Recall, Anakin had wanted to kill Palpatine just minutes before announcing his findings to Windu. So the intent is already there, as is the anger.

I'm in no way saying that Mace can beat Sidious in an all-out fight. I'm saying, in the same situation depicted in ROTS, without Sidious holding back - Mace loses the fight. But Sidious is the one who dies.

Originally posted by Enyalus


In my experience, one has to be living and breathing in order to scream.



What are the chances of Anakin standing by and watching Sidious kill Mace? The reason he helped Sidious in the first place was because from Anakin's viewpoint, Mace was being unfair, about to assassinate him, and held a clear advantage in their battle. With that situation reversed, I very seriously doubt Anakin would allow Sidious to harm Mace further or kill him, without stepping in on Mace's behalf.

Recall, Anakin had wanted to kill Palpatine just minutes before announcing his findings to Windu. So the intent is already there, as is the anger.

I'm in no way saying that Mace can beat Sidious in an all-out fight. I'm saying, in the same situation depicted in ROTS, without Sidious holding back - Mace loses the fight. But Sidious is the one who dies. So how does Mace lose without dieing?

Sidious' lightning doesn't kill him instantly. Giving Anakin enough time to use his saber on the bad guy, instead. Magic.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sidious' lightning doesn't kill him instantly. Giving Anakin enough time to use his saber on the bad guy, instead. Magic. So this is in a scenario where Anakin decides the good of the galaxy is greater than the his own problem? Then yeah, that works.

I've already explained the reasoning. He wanted to kill him before. Even though he knew the apprentice in the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise was referring to Palpatine.

the source for the overpowerment quote is the commentary of ROTS by GL btw.

Originally posted by Enyalus


In my experience, one has to be living and breathing in order to scream.

Sorry, I misread your post.

Silly, silly, crazy me.

Anyways, yes, Mace was screaming- however, the fact that he stayed still without moving (and was then hurled easily) implies that Palpatine wanted to torture him for a few seconds, in the whole "Haha! I win!" thing. He's an arrogant, narcisstic maniac; it's his nature to gloat over his victory.

His screams are no longer heard when he is out of the window, too.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

His screams are no longer heard when he is out of the window, too.

Because of the Doppler Effect...?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Because of the Doppler Effect...?

lol wut?

Seriously, dude. He screams as he is being tortured, and when he is finally hurled out oft he window, the screaming stops.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
lol wut?

Seriously, dude. He screams as he is being tortured, and when he is finally hurled out oft he window, the screaming stops.

Go to Wikipedia and look up 'Doppler Effect.' The gods demand it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Go to Wikipedia and look up 'Doppler Effect.' The gods demand it.

God works in mysterious ways.

U phail.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
God works in mysterious ways.

U phail.

Like your reading comprehension skills? Again?

I used the plural. Meaning, none of that Judeo-Christian BS.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Like your reading comprehension skills? Again?

I used the plural. Meaning, none of that Judeo-Christian BS.

...

Okay, GODS work in mysterious ways. If you count slamming a guy with lightning mysterious.

I refuse to obey the gods, being an atheist. They die from the shock of being disobeyed.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Okay, GODS work in mysterious ways. If you count slamming a guy with lightning mysterious.

I don't.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I refuse to obey the gods, being an atheist. They die from the shock of being disobeyed.

What do you scream out during sex, then?

Originally posted by Enyalus


I don't.

Displaying the woeful incompetence of your tragically underdeveloped brain.



Originally posted by Enyalus
What do you scream out during sex, then?

You don't want to know. It's rated R.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Displaying the woeful incompetence of your tragically underdeveloped brain.

If lightning striking a guy is mysterious to you, I think it might be your brain which is dangerously underdeveloped.

Originally posted by Enyalus
If lightning striking a guy is mysterious to you, I think it might be your brain which is dangerously underdeveloped.

My brain was analyzed by the world's top experts and was proven to be of superb quality!

The world's top experts are my neighbors, btw. See, they have this very special method of mind-analyzing...

Compared to what?

What compared to what?

Brain superb quality

Compared to you, kiddo.

Compared to Nebby and Numan maybe.

Dude, who the hell is Numan?

And Nebby isn't dumb. He's a hypocritical sock/troll, but he's far from a moron.

As for Numan, ask some of the older members like LS or Gideon..


For Nebby,, But which is worse...

Why did he get banned in the first place.

According to Blax, Nebaris got banned because he impersonated Blax. Seriously.

... that's just SAD.

That's it... Really...
DAMN

I've seen way worse
and nobody got so much as a warning.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dude, who the hell is Numan?

And Nebby isn't dumb. He's a hypocritical sock/troll, but he's far from a moron. Numan was an 11 year old kid that socked nearly as much as nebaris.

As for nebby, he is idiotic and moronic in a sense that he purposely behaves that way and has absolutely no faith in what he argues in.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Numan was an 11 year old kid that socked nearly as much as nebaris.

As for nebby, he is idiotic and moronic in a sense that he purposely behaves that way and has absolutely no faith in what he argues in.

Sad. A little kid becomes the bane of 15+ year olds. I like it.

And Nebaris argues MORONIC points, yes, but he has shown himself to be good at collecting evidence and posting arguments. We all know that he's smart, but that doesn't prevent him from making ridiculous assertions (Anakin is more technically skilled than Dooku, Zannah is far stronger than Sidious, Sion is the most powerful force user in history, etc...).

Someone once told me that Nebaris got banned for being incredably rude and obscene towards other members, which is odd becuase he's never been overtly rude (compared to some others) or obscene. Bearing in mind that this was probably Ivalice so it all could just be a steriod-fueled delusion. Plus people tend to lie to me alot. Must be my honest face...

You just won't stop accusing me of taking steroids would you? I'm not a 300 lbs beast.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Someone once told me that Nebaris got banned for being incredably rude and obscene towards other members, which is odd becuase he's never been overtly rude (compared to some others) or obscene. Bearing in mind that this was probably Ivalice so it all could just be a steriod-fueled delusion. Plus people tend to lie to me alot. Must be my honest face... Noone lies to you.