Doom Vs. The Incredible Hulk

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Placidity
Doctor Doom has been observing the mighty Hulk for some months now, fascinated by his amazing ability of increasing his strength through rage.

Doom plans to brainwash the Hulk after capturing him and use him for his own diabolical plan for destroying the Fantastic Four.

Caught up in his own ego, Doom decides to take Hulk in a straight fight, not even bothering to plan or prepare Hulk's capture.

He creates chaos in a heavily populated city to draw him out. Bruce appears in his human form, and is recognized by Doom. Even though he knows he can easily defeat Bruce Banner in his human form, he decides to have a bit of fun, and begins to taunt him.

Not long after, the streets are deserted. Doom laughs and gives applause as an enraged Hulk stands before him.

. . .

Who will stand victorious?



- Victor Von Doom from Fantastic Four (not F4:ROTSS)

- Hulk from the Incredible Hulk (2008)

NonSensi-Klown
Oh... oh god.

Hulk destroys Dr.Doom here.

Toku King
Doom is, well, doomed.

Placidity
Well, what is the reason to believe that Doom's durability won't stand up against the Hulk?

And also, his electric blast is pretty powerful, burnt a large clean hole through a guy's abdomen.

Not saying Doom would win, just some points to consider for his side.

Toku King
It doesn't matter how long Doom can take the punches. There's no way he's gonna hurt the Hulk.

Dark-Jaxx
Doom wins.

ragesRemorse
I would give Doom an easy win but Doom was openly intimidated by The Thing. Doom didn't even attempt to take on the Fantastic Four until he was able to take Ben out of the picture. I might still give Doom the advantage because he showed indomitable resilience while fighting The Thing. After seeing the two of them actually fight i wondered why Doom felt so threatened by Ben in the first place. Doom endured everything that The Thing threw at him, literally. The Doom in the fantastic four movie was a fuking monster compared to comic doom. 2008 Hulk was greatly de-powered but still showed catastrophic strength and lighting fast agility. Although, I think doom's electrocution would be enough to drop the 2008 Hulk.

Dark-Jaxx
Thing had better strength feats, just wanted to point that out.

Robtard
The Hulk took everything the army and the Abomination had to throw at him with a shrug and he does have the "madder = stronger" feat as shown in the movie. Doom can only delay his defeat, he can't win here.

Utrigita
No he cannot win but I however doesn't see a way for Hulk to take on Doom and put serious injure on him, Hulk doesn't have a level of power compareable with the Silver Surfer and he is the only one that was shown capable of inflicting visible damage on Doom, reducing him at one point in his blast to a skeleton.

I vote Stalemate I doesn't see Doom inflicting damage on Hulk either.

Robtard
Considering the Hulk has the 'strength increase depending on his emotional state' in the movie, he has the ability to become strong enough to damage or even tear Doom into pieces.

NonSensi-Klown
This isn't even Return of the Silver Surfer Doom... it's Doom from the first one... his feats in the first movie were way lamer. The ability to put a hole in a regular abdomen would tickle Hulk... and all his other feats in that movie will not help him put down Hulk.

BruceSkywalker
Not much Doom can do here. The Incredible Hulk takes care of him

Dark-Jaxx
Even though Thing has better strength feats than Hulk in the movie, and Doom physically matched him?

And no one reply,"HE'S T3H HULK! THAT MEANS HE IS STRONGA THAN T3h THING!"

ragesRemorse
Originally posted by Robtard
The Hulk took everything the army and the Abomination had to throw at him with a shrug and he does have the "madder = stronger" feat as shown in the movie. Doom can only delay his defeat, he can't win here.

Doom took everything that the fantastic four had to offer, even the torches SUPER NOVA heat and merely shrugged it off. Doom was only defeated because he was outsmarted. There is no way that the Hulk is going to outsmart Doom. I saw nothing in the 2008 Incredible Hulk movie that suggests that the Hulk is stronger or weaker than the thing from the fantastic four movie. Doom took everything the thing had with a chuckle.

Placidity
Yea, surviving that Super Nova feat is definitely right up there. According to Richards, its temperature is equivalent to that of the Sun and potentially Earth-destroying. (Sue suppressing that with her force field was BS though)

Utrigita
Originally posted by Robtard
Considering the Hulk has the 'strength increase depending on his emotional state' in the movie, he has the ability to become strong enough to damage or even tear Doom into pieces.

On what are you basing this?

Doom toke what Reed called a Supernova and shrugged it off afterwards, he toke every punch from the thing with no mark, and went toe to toe with him and was near killing him. I simply doesn't see any ground to sat that Hulk tear Doom to pieces.

NonSensi-Klown
Didn;t he take the supernova in RotSS?

This isn't RotSS Doom. no expression

Utrigita
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Didn;t he take the supernova in RotSS?

This isn't RotSS Doom. no expression

No he toke it in the first movie, that was where he helped Thing turn into Ben and at the same time amped his powers, then he captured Reed and placed him in that Chair with liquid hydrogen ore something, doom then fired a heat seeking missile at Johnny, then Sue tried to free him but got owned then thing got back and punched Doom etc etc. In there attempt to defeat doom at the end they used the Supernova and then freezed him down.

The Fantastic four didn't fight The first version of Doom directly and for a longer interval in rise of the silver surfer.

Robtard
Originally posted by Utrigita
On what are you basing this?

Doom toke what Reed called a Supernova and shrugged it off afterwards, he toke every punch from the thing with no mark, and went toe to toe with him and was near killing him. I simply doesn't see any ground to sat that Hulk tear Doom to pieces.

The movie, the Hulk clearly showed he has the "madder = stronger" ability. I would assume that in a prolonged fight with Doom, he would get increasingly madder, ergo stronger and stronger.

Robtard
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Doom took everything that the fantastic four had to offer, even the torches SUPER NOVA heat and merely shrugged it off. Doom was only defeated because he was outsmarted. There is no way that the Hulk is going to outsmart Doom. I saw nothing in the 2008 Incredible Hulk movie that suggests that the Hulk is stronger or weaker than the thing from the fantastic four movie. Doom took everything the thing had with a chuckle.

You didn't pay attention then, the Hulk has the "madder = stronger" ability, as shown in the movie.

Edit: His speed even with his rage too.

Darth Martin
Ben wasn't anywhere near his comic counterpart in ability and Hulk on the other hand is at base form. Hulk wins.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Robtard
The movie, the Hulk clearly showed he has the "madder = stronger" ability. I would assume that in a prolonged fight with Doom, he would get increasingly madder, ergo stronger and stronger.

Agreed but I doesn't see why you on that bases that Hulk will be capable of ripping Doom apart when the temperatures of the sun failed to crack his armor, what is the most hardened material that hulk has shown damage, titanium?

Dark-Jaxx
Not even.

It took several haymakers to shape a car into gloves.

Hulk at his maddest in the movie could not hurt Doom.

Alpha Centauri
Lest we forget that Doom made up for being a complete pussy in the movie by not having armour.

Instead, he was made of metal.

-AC

Robtard
Originally posted by Utrigita
Agreed but I doesn't see why you on that bases that Hulk will be capable of ripping Doom apart when the temperatures of the sun failed to crack his armor, what is the most hardened material that hulk has shown damage, titanium?

I don't know the limit of the movie Hulk's strength, he could very well get strong enough to rip Doom into pieces. Besides, heat resistance is far different that blunt force trauma resistance.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Not even.

It took several haymakers to shape a car into gloves.

Hulk at his maddest in the movie could not hurt Doom.

We never saw Hulk at his maddest as final-limit, in fact, the rage-strength factor wasn't shown until after that car-glove scene.

Edit: So what we have here, neither opponent being able to take down the other, while Hulk has the edge of becoming stronger and stronger, possibly reaching a limit where he can take Doom out.

Dark-Jaxx
When he got really pissed...All he really did was break a roof of a building.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
When he got really pissed...All he really did was break a roof of a building.

He over-powered the Abomination, which may not be enough to take down Doom, but it does show that he has the potential (like in the comics) of limitless strength given his stress level.

So this match is either a stalemate, or Hulk gets to a level of strength where he can tear Doom a new *******. Either way, Doom isn't winning.

Dark-Jaxx
And why can Doom not win?

Hulk is not invincible, Doom can PHYSICALLY hurt him.

Physically, movie Doom was impressive. He was able to best Thing physically.

Who by feats, actually is stronger than movie Hulk. Which is both bogus and sad, I know.

NonSensi-Klown
I'd say Doom could potentially beat new Hulk, but he'd lose to Ang Lee's nuclear bomb tanking Hulk.

Dark-Jaxx
I give you that.

Ang Lee's Hulk was uber despite being in such a shit movie.

Placidity
Oh yea, Hulk ripped a car in two, Thing compacted one into a small ball lol.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
And why can Doom not win?

Hulk is not invincible, Doom can PHYSICALLY hurt him.

Physically, movie Doom was impressive. He was able to best Thing physically.

Who by feats, actually is stronger than movie Hulk. Which is both bogus and sad, I know.

Hurt him, yes, take him out, no. The Hulk took more than Doom dished out, and he also has his famous healing factor. The gun-ship and the Abomination fight are perfect examples.

Edit: What did The Thing do that was all that more impressive than Hulk strength-wise? It's been some time since I watched FF.

Robtard
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
I'd say Doom could potentially beat new Hulk, but he'd lose to Ang Lee's nuclear bomb tanking Hulk.

Na.

Robtard
Originally posted by Placidity
Oh yea, Hulk ripped a car in two, Thing compacted one into a small ball lol.

It's amazing how people can not think for themselves and rely on movies to spoon feed them everything.

How much strength do you think it takes to jump-travel from Brazil to Guatemala in one night?

Placidity
^ Is a lot the right answer?


BTW, the Hulk from the 2008 version does not have a healing factor.

Scythe
Which Hulk are we talking about?

Placidity
Edward Norton / The Incredible Hulk (2008)

Scythe
Oh. Well, I wasn't impressed with Doom's portrayal in both FF films, he seemed to be, well.... Easily beat. Melting metal kept him in place while the blows of The Thing barely phased him. Seemed off imo.

Hulk may not have had regeneration to my knowledge, but he sure seemed healed after all the stabbing brought by Abomination. He had special moves. (Hulk Smash!) And for some reason, seemed to grow stronger by adapting his anger.

I think he can take this.

ragesRemorse
Originally posted by Robtard
You didn't pay attention then, the Hulk has the "madder = stronger" ability, as shown in the movie.

Edit: His speed even with his rage too.

I didn't see that at all in the 2008 version.

Ang Lee, however, made a point to acknowledge that in his version.

Robtard
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I didn't see that at all in the 2008 version.

Ang Lee, however, made a point to acknowledge that in his version.

It was very subtle and unlike Lee's version, his skin showed scar-tissue, though they went away after he transformed back and then again.

When he gets nailed by the helicopter-blade on the trapezius, it cuts him, by the time he's holding Betty while in the fire, it's nothing more than a dry scar.

When Abomination pokes a hole in his chest, it's a bloody mess, by the time he chokes him out, it's all but healed.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
Hurt him, yes, take him out, no. The Hulk took more than Doom dished out, and he also has his famous healing factor. The gun-ship and the Abomination fight are perfect examples.

Edit: What did The Thing do that was all that more impressive than Hulk strength-wise? It's been some time since I watched FF. I seem to recall several times in the movie of Hulk getting TIRED, such as when Abomination sent him through the building, he was visibly tired. Doom is strong and durable enough to fight with Hulk, but also is much more versatile.

He pulled a fire truck back onto a bridge after it was falling off. Sure, he had some help from the other FF...But they are all human in strength so it is pretty safe to say that it was mostly Thing.

Toku King
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I seem to recall several times in the movie of Hulk getting TIRED, such as when Abomination sent him through the building, he was visibly tired.

That's because Abomination was flipping beast! Since when did Doom toss the Thing to the other side of the street?! It wasn't going through the building that tired out the Hulk. It was the Abomination beating on his skull.

Dark-Jaxx
Since when did Hulk or even Abomination have feats of raw strength to match Thing's?

Alright then.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Since when did Hulk or even Abomination have feats of raw strength to match Thing's?

Alright then.

Here:

Throwing a forklift like it "was a baseball", throwing a huge boulder well into the horizon, ripping cars and Humvees into pieces, swinging a Humvee around like it was a club, shoving a gigantic liquid (soda?) container so it slides a few hundred feet while crashing through varies other bolted down industrial equipment and jump-travelling from Brazil to Guatemala.

Toku King
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Since when did Hulk or even Abomination have feats of raw strength to match Thing's?

Alright then.

Thing threw one car(which seemed to be difficult for him) and punched his enemy a lot.
Abomination threw his enemy all the way down the street and tossed cars around without any effort whatsoever.

Placidity
Are people ignoring how I said Thing compacted a car (Johnny's) into a small heap and tossed it? You realize that means Thing actually crushed the engine block as well?

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
Here:

Throwing a forklift like it "was a baseball", throwing a huge boulder well into the horizon, ripping cars and Humvees into pieces, swinging a Humvee around like it was a club, shoving a gigantic liquid (soda?) container so it slides a few hundred feet while crashing through varies other bolted down industrial equipment and jump-travelling from Brazil to Guatemala. And the only one which surpasses Thing is traveling from Brazil to Guatemala, which is not even solid, we have absolutely no idea how long it took him or how many jumps.

NonSensi-Klown
He also managed to walk through the sonic booms, though I dunno how strong those booms were.

But.... even if Hulk can't beat Doom at base level, he will the longer the fight goes on.

How can Doom possibly put him down for good in the mean time?

Dark-Jaxx
Physically, like Abom almost did. no expression

Or with t3h thunderbolts.

And everyone assumes that Hulk can just get madder infinitely, in the movie, he only truly got pissed when Betty Ross(LOL SHE DIED IN COMICS) was in danger. He won't get that kinda amp for this fight, since Betty is not in this fight.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
And the only one which surpasses Thing is traveling from Brazil to Guatemala, which is not even solid, we have absolutely no idea how long it took him or how many jumps.

He left Brazil just after dark, the next morning he was in Guatemala, it's safe to assume that like in the comics, he can travel several miles per leap.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Physically, like Abom almost did. no expression

Or with t3h thunderbolts.

And everyone assumes that Hulk can just get madder infinitely, in the movie, he only truly got pissed when Betty Ross(LOL SHE DIED IN COMICS) was in danger. He won't get that kinda amp for this fight, since Betty is not in this fight.

"Almost" being the key word.

Considering what the Hulk took from the military, some electrical bolts will not put him down permanently.

Why would you assume that? If Doom is such a threat and Hulk is in danger of being killed, it's likely his stress level will skyrocket. Death situations do make your adrenaline rise.

Toku King
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
And the only one which surpasses Thing is traveling from Brazil to Guatemala, which is not even solid, we have absolutely no idea how long it took him or how many jumps.

No. All of the listed feats surpass the Thing.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
"Almost" being the key word.

Considering what the Hulk took from the military, some electrical bolts will not put him down permanently.

Why would you assume that? If Doom is such a threat and Hulk is in danger of being killed, it's likely his stress level will skyrocket. Death situations do make your adrenaline rise. He was outright dominating him until Betty was in danger.

What makes you say that? At least in my memory, Doom's bolts were more powerful or impressive than anything the Hulk took...I could be wrong though I guess.

Abomination was a threat and Hulk was in danger of being killed, but it was only when Betty was in danger that Hulk's strength rocketed to the point he could overpower Abomination.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
He left Brazil just after dark, the next morning he was in Guatemala, it's safe to assume that like in the comics, he can travel several miles per leap. Well even so, that does not really prove the Hulk is stronger.

Juggernaut cannot travel several miles per leap, but he has overpowered and outright dominated Hulk in the past.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
He was outright dominating him until Betty was in danger.

What makes you say that? At least in my memory, Doom's bolts were more powerful or impressive than anything the Hulk took...I could be wrong though I guess.

Abomination was a threat and Hulk was in danger of being killed, but it was only when Betty was in danger that Hulk's strength rocketed to the point he could overpower Abomination.

Combined with having his head smashed into a wall and being stabbed through the chest. It's not crazy to think if Doom was somehow able to put him in a near-death situation or if the fight went on indefinitely, his anger/stress would increase.

What did those bolts do? Hulk took gun fire up to .50 caliber rounds, grenades, Stark sonic canons, and a fully armed gun-ship crashing into him. He also took punches from Abomination that were (from hands) strong enough to catch a missle and explode it without injury.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Well even so, that does not really prove the Hulk is stronger.

Juggernaut cannot travel several miles per leap, but he has overpowered and outright dominated Hulk in the past.

How much power do you think it takes to launch 1,200+ pounds into a several mile arc?

Has Juggernaut tried to jump?

Even so, his other feats are within or arguably greater than what the thing did.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Robtard
I don't know the limit of the movie Hulk's strength, he could very well get strong enough to rip Doom into pieces. Besides, heat resistance is far different that blunt force trauma resistance.

Unless Hulk actually ripped Titanium to pieces then I doesn't see anyway for that to happen.

So Angry Hulks Punches > the tornado created Supernova by Johnny Storm?

Robtard
Originally posted by Utrigita
Unless Hulk actually ripped Titanium to pieces then I doesn't see anyway for that to happen.

So Angry Hulks Punches > the tornado created Supernova by Johnny Storm?

I'm not arguing it as fact, just saying the potential to get strong enough to do so is there.

Also, heat resistance is far different that blunt force trauma resistance. Look at the heat-shielding on the Space Shuttle for a real life example.

Edit: Doom was made of titanium?

Utrigita
Originally posted by Robtard
I'm not arguing it as fact, just saying the potential to get strong enough to do so is there.

Also, heat resistance is far different that blunt force trauma resistance. Look at the heat-shielding on the Space Shuttle for a real life example.

Edit: Doom was made of titanium?

It his "greatest" strength feat is ripping a hummer to pieces then he has a long way

I realise that, but place the heat inside a tornado the tornado creates some form of blunt force...

No but his skin was harder then titanium

Robtard
Originally posted by Utrigita
It his "greatest" strength feat is ripping a hummer to pieces then he has a long way

I realise that, but place the heat inside a tornado the tornado creates some form of blunt force...

No but his skin was harder then titanium

No, he did throw a huge boulder well into the horizon though; I believe he also launched it with just one arm/hand, like a shot-put. That certainly takes a lot of instant power. Shoving that gigantic liquid container so it slid while crashing easily through varies other equipment was no small feat either.

Edit: This was before he did his visible strength increase too.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
Combined with having his head smashed into a wall and being stabbed through the chest. It's not crazy to think if Doom was somehow able to put him in a near-death situation or if the fight went on indefinitely, his anger/stress would increase.

What did those bolts do? Hulk took gun fire up to .50 caliber rounds, grenades, Stark sonic canons, and a fully armed gun-ship crashing into him. He also took punches from Abomination that were (from hands) strong enough to catch a missle and explode it without injury. 1. Yeah, but even after that he was being dominated, but Hulk's love for Betty caused him to become furious when she was in danger, so then he received a massive amp in strength. It is possibly, but it won't be happening soon.

2. ...I can't really remember. Didn't they blast through Sue's shield though?

I would go check, but am reluctant what with the movie itself sucking ass.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
How much power do you think it takes to launch 1,200+ pounds into a several mile arc?

Has Juggernaut tried to jump?

Even so, his other feats are within or arguably greater than what the thing did. 1. I couldn't say in all honesty, and it went several miles?

2. From what I hear, his highest jump was only like 50 feet. Despite that, Juggernaut has shown the physical might to hang with and at times dominate Hulk, hell, in World War Hulk, which is the strongest Hulk there is(second to Red Hulk ROFL), Juggernaut was dominating him, literally stomped his face into the ground with his boot.

3. IMO no. But even if it is, Dr. Dooms durability and overall durability are enough to probably beat Hulk.

Placidity
Originally posted by Robtard
What did those bolts do? Hulk took gun fire up to .50 caliber rounds, grenades, Stark sonic canons, and a fully armed gun-ship crashing into him. He also took punches from Abomination that were (from hands) strong enough to catch a missle and explode it without injury.

Most of the damage that the Hulk withstood were intended to damage by concussive force. Also, force generated by explosives disperse exponentially over an area/space.

The electric blasts from Doom possess extremely high temperatures, that are also concentrated into a single beam. Without effort, Doom was able to generate a blast that burnt a clean hole through someone. While fighting Richards, his blasts were also melting metal bars upon contact.

So difference between what Hulk was shown to survive, and Doom's blast:

- Concussive vs High Heat
- Dispersive Force vs Concentrated Beam

Also such a powerful electric shock will disrupt nerve function inducing involuntary spasms as well as causing the victim to be unable to perform any controlled coordinated movement. Shocks of a sufficiently high current will also lead to cardiac arrest and death.
BTW, will power does not allow one to overcome the neurological effects of an electric shock.


----

Regarding Doom's metal body composition - it is definitely more durable than any other substance on Earth (except maybe adamantium), since it was able to withstand the temperatures of the sun. Doom's biological body system was also subjected to the same heat, and yet he survived.

I think Hulk would have been vaporized if he was thrown into the sun.

Robtard
Hulk had a fully armed gun-ship crash and burn into him. He also has a healing factor, so I don't think it's safe to conclude that Doom's electrical blast will be able to take down Hulk, for certain.

Once again, I don't think Hulk would just walk in and smash Doom, easy ****ign peasy; my reason for Hulk winning is based on the grounds that neither could do much to premanently take the other down, except Hulk has his 'stress=more strength' factor that could potentially make him strong enough to take Doom down, while Doom comes as is.

NonSensi-Klown
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
2. From what I hear, his highest jump was only like 50 feet. Despite that, Juggernaut has shown the physical might to hang with and at times dominate Hulk, hell, in World War Hulk, which is the strongest Hulk there is(second to Red Hulk ROFL), Juggernaut was dominating him, literally stomped his face into the ground with his boot.


And Hulk got up and started beating the crap out of him, then they were equal, then Juggs started using the whole super momentum thing, where he started to win.

Then, Huc used ultimo-PIS.



And you're assuming Hulk's regen factor wouldn't get him past this based on...

I don't think people are realizing that Doom, for whatever durability he has, can't actually kill Hulk. So even if Hulk can't beat him in base form, he will eventually.

Robbie seems to be the only person to get this...

Placidity
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown

And you're assuming Hulk's regen factor wouldn't get him past this based on...


Based on the fact that he doesn't have a healing factor...

http://i34.tinypic.com/3517k0h.jpg


Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
I don't think people are realizing that Doom, for whatever durability he has, can't actually kill Hulk. So even if Hulk can't beat him in base form, he will eventually.

Robbie seems to be the only person to get this...

Theoretically yes. But like Jax said, he got the massive strength amp in the movie when Betty's life was threatened. There won't be such a stimulus in this fight.

BTW, I don't ever remember where it is stated that Hulk gets stronger when he gets madder in the movie.

Also, why do you think Hulk will never be able to out muscle people like Thor, Lobo, Juggernaut etc? In theory it should be possible... but he's meant to be a low herald at best, and has no business taking on people out of his league (excluding special story arcs etc). This is what I think of the comics version anyway.

Robtard
Originally posted by Placidity
Based on the fact that he doesn't have a healing factor...


He does have one, but he does scar when he heals, unlike Lee's version. Like it said, it was shown subtlely. The cut on his shoulder and the hole in his chest both where shown to be in better condition as time went on (not much time at that).

That picture actually proves he heals, the hole was much larger and circular when Abom first stabbed him; in the pic it's pressed together and blood isn't gushing out, the blood seen is the blood that originally gushed during injury.

By the time the Hulk leaves the rooftop, you see the cut has further healed, if he didn't have a HF, blood would have gushed throughtout the fight and so forth.

Placidity
I can see your reasoning...but I would imagine that you can see the image is quite open to reasonably different interpretations regarding the presence/absence of a healing factor?

I won't say you're wrong, but I don't don't think you can say I'm wrong either. stick out tongue

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
And Hulk got up and started beating the crap out of him, then they were equal, then Juggs started using the whole super momentum thing, where he started to win.

Then, Huc used ultimo-PIS. O RLY? Hulk hit Juggernaut once, which...Oh yeah, didn't hurt him. Juggernaut was beating Hulk's ass, and when he was pushing him forward, he didn't even get to friggin build any momentum. Juggernaut DOMINATED the fight, until Hulk somehow sidestepped him and for some unknown reason Juggernaut lost his ability to stop running.

Once again, Doom's blasts went through Sue's shield, you know? The one's that contained a Supernova?

But Hulk>>>That right!? durhulk

NonSensi-Klown
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
O RLY? Hulk hit Juggernaut once, which...Oh yeah, didn't hurt him. Juggernaut was beating Hulk's ass, and when he was pushing him forward, he didn't even get to friggin build any momentum. Juggernaut DOMINATED the fight, until Hulk somehow sidestepped him and for some unknown reason Juggernaut lost his ability to stop running.

I d'unt remember it that way.. 313



Hooray. An attack that has nothing to do with a man who uses pure concussive force, which is entirely different from an attack that is pure heat and flame and no concussive force at all.

What's your point again?

People keep bringing up the supernova like it actually means shit. It's a flare of intense heat, nothing more nothing less. Unless Huc is using a flame thrower or holding a match to his ass and farting the feat is completely and utterly irrelevent in this fight.

Scythe
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
or holding a match to his ass and farting the feat is completely and utterly irrelevent in this fight. Haha, epic win!

Placidity
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown

People keep bringing up the supernova like it actually means shit. It's a flare of intense heat, nothing more nothing less.

Intense Heat....hm, I think you mean the temperature of the Sun.

Reed said it could ultimately destroy the planet.

NonSensi-Klown
Which it can't, because (I learned this recently), the heat of the sun is actually not enough to destroy the world. We've apparently created heat that's hotter the the sun that hasn't affected the planet.

Irregardless, it doesn't matter. If the attack had been that powerful anyone within a mile radius that wasn't super human would burst into flames... which they didn't.

Placidity
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Which it can't, because (I learned this recently), the heat of the sun is actually not enough to destroy the world.

Where did you learn this...

Anyway, Not directly...but

Here:

Susan Storm: You were at 4,000 degrees Kelvin! You were approaching Super-Nova!

Johnny Storm: Sweet!

Susan Storm: No, not "sweet"! That's the heat of the sun!

Reed Richards: You could kill yourself, other people, and burn up the atmosphere, ending all human life as we know it.

Johnny Storm: Got it. Super-Nova bad.

Placidity
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown

Irregardless, it doesn't matter. If the attack had been that powerful anyone within a mile radius that wasn't super human would burst into flames... which they didn't.

Because Sue Storm was suppressing it with her force field (yes its PIS, but it still happened).

Edit: And thats why someone was saying that Doom's blast must be very powerful since it penetrated her shield.

NonSensi-Klown
And then...

He used super nova outside of a chamber used to absorb heat.. I.E., out in the open...

If it could have even potentially ended all life on Earth then it would have done more then just burn Doom and maybe a block's worth of area effect.

It didn't.

So even if Supernova coudl do so, then all that means is that Johnny didn't actually use the attack on Doom, otherwise the planet would have been destroyed. He used a weaker version.

Placidity
I said Sue was suppressing it...

and in the chamber they stopped him before he reached Super Nova. Read the transcript ... sad

NonSensi-Klown
Meaning it was weaker, since Sue was suppressing it? Otherwise even if she managed to surpress it from affecting everything else, Johnny should have at least died, since the energy was eminating from him.

Placidity
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Meaning it was weaker, since Sue was suppressing it? Otherwise even if she managed to surpress it from affecting everything else, Johnny should have at least died, since the energy was eminating from him.

Means Sue's shield are very powerful, and Doom's blast even more so, since it penetrated her shield... I said this already in previous post.

Also, Torch is immune to his own flames.

NonSensi-Klown
So then Reed was wrong.

Which means... he's a fallible third party character... and the words of fallible third party characters shouldn't really be taken seriously? So, the supernova really being a world-destroying attack is, at best, speculation and theory.

NonSensi-Klown
I've just realized that this entire discussion is irrelevant.

The supernova, even if it could destroy the world, which is unlikely, would destroy it by catching the atmosphere on fire. It's just moreintense heat, which has absolutely no bearing on Doom's shields being able to resist the Hulk's concussive force.

So again it is still a pointless feat to bring up in this debate.

Placidity
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
So then Reed was wrong.

Which means... he's a fallible third party character... and the words of fallible third party characters shouldn't really be taken seriously? So, the supernova really being a world-destroying attack is, at best, speculation and theory.

Wait why is Reed wrong? confused

NonSensi-Klown
Originally posted by Placidity

Reed Richards: You could kill yourself, other people, and burn up the atmosphere, ending all human life as we know it.


Although he's technically not wrong, since he didn't state it as fact. He said that it's a possibility.

Dark-Jaxx
Reed Richards wrong?

That is a concept I struggle with. Ever consider that maybe the flames would continuously expand outwards since Torch would lose control of it? Hence Sue's shields.

And regardless, it is still MUCH greater than anything Hulk has shown to take, it didn't do shit to Doom except melt his armor a little, and Sue's shields are what encased it. Doom however broke through Storm's shields.

Doom can one shot Hulk, like it or not.

And Hulk can't do shit to Doom.

EDIT: And Blax, I already told you temperatures hotter than the sun(it's surface anyway, don't know about core) have been recreated on Earth, but you still argued your point on the Amaterasu topic. Double standards ftl.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Doom can one shot Hulk, like it or not.



How exactly?

Dark-Jaxx
With his blasts, you know, the ones that broke Sue's shields, which withstood Johnny's Supernova?

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
With his blasts, you know, the ones that broke Sue's shields, which withstood Johnny's Supernova?

Doubtful they'd take out Hulk in one hit or even permanently put him down with multiple attacks.

I don't recall the blast 'withstanding the supernova', as I watched the movie once and it was shit. How did this come about?

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
Doubtful they'd take out Hulk in one hit or even permanently put him down with multiple attacks.

I don't recall the blast 'withstanding the supernova', as I watched the movie once and it was shit. How did this come about? 1. Even though he never survived anything close to as powerful?

2. No, Sue's shields did. Doom's blast broke her shields.

CaptainStoic
Wasn't the Hulk tearing tanks apart like they were paper? The Thing certainly wasn't on this level when you consider that a tank can be ten times heavier than a truck. Oh have we forgotten how hard it was for the Thing to keep that truck from falling off of the bridge?

I just don't see how anything that Doom hurls at the Hulk could stop him, but I but see how enough hammering on Doom could crush him.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Wasn't the Hulk tearing tanks apart like they were paper? The Thing certainly wasn't on this level when you consider that a tank can be ten times heavier than a truck. Oh have we forgotten how hard it was for the Thing to keep that truck from falling off of the bridge?

I just don't see how anything that Doom hurls at the Hulk could stop him, but I but see how enough hammering on Doom could crush him. No, you are thinking of Ang Lee's Hulk.

And Doom's blasts>Torch's supernova.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Robtard
No, he did throw a huge boulder well into the horizon though; I believe he also launched it with just one arm/hand, like a shot-put. That certainly takes a lot of instant power. Shoving that gigantic liquid container so it slid while crashing easily through varies other equipment was no small feat either.

Edit: This was before he did his visible strength increase too.

So his option is battlefield removal?

And still have Hulk (in the form currently discussing) showed that he was capable of making even a dent in Titanium ore breaking a diamond ore something like that because Dooms skin is harder.

Utrigita
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Meaning it was weaker, since Sue was suppressing it? Otherwise even if she managed to surpress it from affecting everything else, Johnny should have at least died, since the energy was eminating from him.

To use Reeds words.

"Sue see if you can contain it." We have no idea how high the flame tornado that Torch created was and Sue was completely exhausted afterwards collapsing to the ground with blood flowing from her nose.

Dark-Jaxx
Why should Johnny have died from his own Supernova? no expression

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Even though he never survived anything close to as powerful?

2. No, Sue's shields did. Doom's blast broke her shields.

I am asking you how powerful Doom's electrical attack is, I remember it burned through a guy and it melted some metal (I think) and you're saying it went through Sue's little bubbles, that won't bring down the Hulk for good, considering what he took.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
I am asking you how powerful Doom's electrical attack is, I remember it burned through a guy and it melted some metal (I think) and you're saying it went through Sue's little bubbles, that won't bring down the Hulk for good, considering what he took. And exactly what did he take that is that powerful?

Did you miss when I said that Sue's shields held Johnny's supernova?

But could not stop Doom.

NonSensi-Klown
Originally posted by Utrigita
To use Reeds words.

"Sue see if you can contain it." We have no idea how high the flame tornado that Torch created was and Sue was completely exhausted afterwards collapsing to the ground with blood flowing from her nose.

Bu she still did contain it, which means that the strength of it may have been diminished. If it was done full force it could have had catastrophic results. Maybe.



Which is irrelevent. You're using A>B>C logic here.

Sue's shields > Johnny's Super nova.

Sue's Shields < Doom's blasts

thus,

Doom's blasts > Johnny's supernova

Doom's blasts > Huc.

The logic is messed up.

They're two completely different attacks with different characteristics. Doom's attacks use kinetic damage and electrical damage, whereas a supernova is an intense flare of heat. The only thing proven by the Doom > Sue > Johnny debcale is that her shields have a high resistence to heat and a lower resistence to kinetic force. Just because Doom's attack broke through her shields does not mean that it's > the supernova. If they were both electrical atatcks then you'd have a case. If they were fire you'd have a case. They're not.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
And exactly what did he take that is that powerful?

Did you miss when I said that Sue's shields held Johnny's supernova?

But could not stop Doom.

I named those several pages back: grenades, many different kinds of ammo, fully loaded attack-copter crashing and burning into him and the Stark canons. He also took a serious beat-down from the Abomination, who was strong enough to catch a missile and let it explode in his hand without any damage.

I did not, I do question how powerful that supernova was and if Johnny had gone all out though? Also, when he broke her shields, she was already weakened right?

Edit: Blax also has a point, you're comparing apples to oranges, in a fashion.

Utrigita
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Bu she still did contain it, which means that the strength of it may have been diminished. If it was done full force it could have had catastrophic results. Maybe.

"may have?" it could have been increased, it could have made contact with the atmosphere it could have been the height of a 3 stories building, there is a lot of if's, the only known facts is that Sue contained a FireTornado with a degree of 5000 Celsius.

NonSensi-Klown
How do you know it was 5000 C?

Robtard
Looking at the fight, I'm more certain that Doom couldn't do much at all to Hulk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAyhLbQfbFo

If Johnny's attack was as hot as the sun, it would have melted entirely through the asphalt and concrete; all it did was sorch a few inches.

Sue did hold off Doom's blast, she just couldn't hold it indefinitely.

Doom isn't as strong as the Thing, though he does have a degree of super-strength.

Utrigita
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
How do you know it was 5000 C?

Because I seem to remember Reed telling us this based on his equipment when Johnny was almost taking of the first time. Now this is asking for patience (unless you got the film)

Go to 49:40

on this link there is the scenario

http://66stage.com/movies.php?pl=yok&url=XMzI2NTQ3Mjg

and sorry not 5000 kelvin but 4000 kelvin and to quote Sue, "Any Hotter you are approching supernova"

And he was melting Titanium but he wasn't melting Doom.

Placidity
Originally posted by Robtard

If Johnny's attack was as hot as the sun, it would have melted entirely through the asphalt and concrete; all it did was sorch a few inches.


I think you really just need to accept that Johnny's attack was as hot as the Sun.

Here's why:

- He was reaching that temperature before in the heat chamber. If he hadn't been stopped, he would have. He was already at 4000k when they stopped him. I would already take this as concrete proof that he could do it, coupled with the fact that:

- This is a feat that Johnny is known for in the comics. It really should clear up any minor doubts that he could do so (personally I see NO evidence that would allow any doubts).

- Later Reed asks him to go Super nova. He wouldn't have done that if he didn't think he could do it.


And about the flames melting the ground - you're absolutely right, it should have, but movies aren't always 100% scientifically plausible/accurate.

Alpha Centauri
If it was as hot as the Sun it would have destroyed the Earth, so let's accept that Reed was exaggerating.

-AC

NonSensi-Klown
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Bu she still did contain it, which means that the strength of it may have been diminished. If it was done full force it could have had catastrophic results. Maybe.



Which is irrelevent. You're using A>B>C logic here.

Sue's shields > Johnny's Super nova.

Sue's Shields < Doom's blasts

thus,

Doom's blasts > Johnny's supernova

Doom's blasts > Huc.

The logic is messed up.

They're two completely different attacks with different characteristics. Doom's attacks use kinetic damage and electrical damage, whereas a supernova is an intense flare of heat. The only thing proven by the Doom > Sue > Johnny debcale is that her shields have a high resistence to heat and a lower resistence to kinetic force. Just because Doom's attack broke through her shields does not mean that it's > the supernova. If they were both electrical atatcks then you'd have a case. If they were fire you'd have a case. They're not.

Toku King
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
With his blasts, you know, the ones that broke Sue's shields, which withstood Johnny's Supernova?

WrjwaqZfjIY

Utrigita
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If it was as hot as the Sun it would have destroyed the Earth, so let's accept that Reed was exaggerating.

-AC

Lets just accept that the equipment reed and sue used registered around 4000 kelvin, sure it could have destroyed earth but as mentioned previously movies isn't always scientifically accurate.

Betterman
With prep time, Doom would win. But since he doesn't have prep time, This is what happens:

Doom goes on an "eggo-trip" and shoots his powers at Bruce, and hurts him badly, but does not kill him.
Now, Hulk is INFURIATED(PISSED OFF). It's going to take the whole entire Marvel universe to clean up Doom's murdered remains.

Bruce FTW.

Toku King
Originally posted by Betterman
With prep time, Doom would win.

No, he wouldn't. Doom has shown no impressive prep time feats at an time whatsoever.

bakerboy
Usually, people get the same mistake over and over again, mistake the comic characters with their movie counterparts, what is wrong. In the movies, hulk isnt as powerful in anyway as the comic version, but he would crush the stupid doom version from the movies all the way. Doom in the movies sucks.

Placidity
Okay folks lets go over this again.

I'm going to lay out the facts so they won't be disputed.

The intention of this post is not meant for evidence that Doom will undeniably beat Hulk.

Here we go...

Johnny Storm / Human Torch

Feat: Supernova

http://i34.tinypic.com/4t2i52.jpg
1. Here is the containment chamber which Torch heats up in an experiment. As you can see it is made of titanium, which melts at around 2000K. I would also speculate that the tubes feeding to the chamber contains cooling fluids which would be a common practice.

http://i33.tinypic.com/ke6omx.jpg
2. Here is the last shot that we get to see of the heat level as shown on the computer screen. It shows 3725K and is rapidly rising (can't see in a still image).

http://i34.tinypic.com/2qvv8qw.jpg
3. This is the next shot. Sue and Richards are definitely feeling it and are yelling for him to stop. The chamber looks like its possibly melting.


http://i34.tinypic.com/29wwrq8.jpg
4. After Torch is stopped, we can see indeed the chamber is melted.
At this point, the following dialogue takes place:

Susan Storm: You were at 4,000 degrees Kelvin! You were approaching Super-Nova!
Johnny Storm: Sweet!
Susan Storm: No, not "sweet"! That's the heat of the sun!
Reed Richards: You could kill yourself, other people, and burn up the atmosphere, ending all human life as we know it.
Johnny Storm: Got it. Super-Nova bad.



http://i38.tinypic.com/23hu9i1.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/10yq3i1.jpg
5.

As you can see in the above pictures, the concrete/asphalt is indeed completely molten.

The Thing


http://i38.tinypic.com/5v2nx4.jpg
1. Just a strength feat. I would say it is comparable (if not superior) to the Hulk smashing a car in half.

Placidity
Susan Storm

Feat: Strength of Force Field

http://i38.tinypic.com/5y4w9w.jpg
1. Here Sue Storm is containing Torch's Supernova with her force field. No doubt it must be very strong.


Dr Doom

Feat: Strength of Electric Blast

http://i37.tinypic.com/14e8001.jpg
1. Melting metal beams upon contact.


http://i33.tinypic.com/34ot0na.jpg
2. Here Sue blocks Doom's blast for a few moments, but frantically tells Reed that she can't hold him any longer.

http://i33.tinypic.com/t5so0g.png
3. Doom casually melts a hole through this poor board member. Notice he isn't using any effort at all. Watching this scene in video will show that quite clearly as well.

http://i34.tinypic.com/5dpezm.jpg
4. Really a combination of strength and the power of his electric blasts. Sends Thing flying, soon after he is about to impale him (whether or not he is able to really impale him is unknown, although Doom looks confident he can) if not for his Fantastic buddies.

I might also add here that Thing and Doom have been going at it physically for awhile before this shot, and despite everything Thing threw at him, Doom kept coming back for more. I would say they are on par in strength, although if Doom is really able to impale Thing, thats a different story.


Feat: Energy Generation

http://i38.tinypic.com/2qlxuys.jpg
1. Here Doom powers Reed's cosmic machine. Despite all Reed's wealth, intellect and resources, he was unable to generate enough power for the machine to work properly.

Doom shows the immense level of energy he can generate by giving the machine a significant boost (almost double, if seen on the computer screen).

Directly after Thing is converted to his human form, the following dialogue takes place:

Victor Von Doom: I've always wanted power. Now I have an unlimited supply.
Ben Grimm: And no Thing to stand in your way.


---------------------------------


Finis

Markus Corvinus
Doom gets pounded into the ground.

Dark-Jaxx
Hm, it looks like Doom's blasts are more like heat than real electricity...

Markus Corvinus
I never thought about that until now but they actually do seem more heat based, especially after relooking at the pic above of him shooting a hole through that guy's chest. As weird as it sounds, I think it could possibly cause a similar sized hole in the Hulk as his healing was toned down a bit in TIH, but I'm sure he'd still keep fighting.

Dark-Jaxx
I doubt it...Aim for the head lol.

Markus Corvinus
I'm sure he'd be able to regenerate his head, it'd just take longer since his healing factor isn't on par with the 2003 or comic book version.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Markus Corvinus
I'm sure he'd be able to regenerate his head, it'd just take longer since his healing factor isn't on par with the 2003 or comic book version. No he couldn't. Until he does sumthin even remotely close to that, he is not.

Alpha Centauri
That's not Doom, that's arguably the worst comic to movie translation of a character ever.

-AC

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Hm, it looks like Doom's blasts are more like heat than real electricity...

You do realize that a fully armed attack-copter crashed and burned right into the Hulk and he wasn't any the worse for it, right?

Edit: Here
EhErdXyybLk

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
You do realize that a fully armed attack-copter crashed and burned right into the Hulk and he wasn't any the worse for it, right? You do realise that Doom's blasts were overpowering Sue's shields, which were able to contain the full power of Johnny's Supernova, which had a temperature of at least 4,000 K?

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
You do realise that Doom's blasts were overpowering Sue's shields, which were able to contain the full power of Johnny's Supernova, which had a temperature of at least 4,000 K?

Yet they weren't strong enough to cut through The Thing, only send him flying several yards, odd that. FF was nothing more than a botched attempt at making a movie.

Also as noted previosuly, if it was that hot, it would have done more than just melt the asphalt a few inches.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
Yet they weren't strong enough to cut through The Thing, only send him flying several yards, odd that. FF was nothing more than a botched attempt at making a movie.

Also as noted previosuly, if it was that hot, it would have done more than just melt the asphalt a few inches. Good feat for Thing, not for Hulk. Being the Hulk is not a feat, until proven otherwise, I guess Thing's durability>Hulk's in this case. And yeah, FF movies sucked.

It was directly stated to be that hot, what was directly stated in the movie is greater than your opinion, and it is fiction, they do not always follow logic or realistic physics.

Placidity
Originally posted by Robtard

Also as noted previosuly, if it was that hot, it would have done more than just melt the asphalt a few inches.

I agree with Dark-Jaxx's reply, but if you look at the pictures I posted in the previous page, you will see that the asphalt is completely molten.

Wil7
HULK SMASH!!!

Markus Corvinus
Indeed, I don't think that Doom would be able to deliver enough damage to put him down permanently, but maybe enough to hurt him. We all must remember that this Hulk doesn't possess a healing factor that's as unique as the 2003 Hulk or the comics Hulk.

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