Anakin vs DN Luke (Saber Battle)

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Purr-lease. First off, when Yoda and Dooku dueled, many would tell you that Yoda was holding back. Even on Djun, a planet extremely powerful in the dark side, when Dooku assaulted Yoda- with the full intent to kill- Yoda held back and refused to kill his own Padawan, and despite all that, he owned Dooku.

Anakin's a great saber combatant, but when he faces against people like Yoda and Sidious, he's simply doesn't have the speed, agility, and reflexes necessary to take care of 'em. First off, I need you to prove that Anakin defeated Dooku thanks to any advantages in speed. Yoda was obviously outclassing and dodging the vast majority of Dooku's attacks (I can provide some quotes from the AotC novel, if you want me to), and he only stalemated with Sidious in terms of speed.

Meanwhile, Anakin never displayed that sort of speed advantage over Dooku. He won thanks to stamina, force reserves, and sheer brute power. He ISN'T as fast as either Yoda, Sidious, or Mace, even if Mace isn't 'immersed in Vaapad'.

I fear your underestimating the Great Count here!! this is blasphemy and must be addressed.

Yes I agree Yoda was holding back to a certain extent agianst Dooku in AOTC, in the sense that he didnt go completely ALL OUT like he did against Sidious, which was assination attempt. Whilst against Dooku his mission was to "Capture him".

That being said it was an extremely important mission to Capture him.. "Capture Dooku we MUST!" as in he had to stop him. and lets not forget Anakin could have "Captured Dooku" if he chose so, i.e you can chop the guys arms and legs off and still Capture him. So though he was holding back to an extent, he clearly wasnt holding back a great amount.

Also you mentioned the AOTC novel.. well did you miss the part of the where Dooku also held his own against Yodas onslaught. though later he was being forced back.

It also clearly stated that Yoda was "Exhausted" after his battle with Dooku. Also in Schism a few weeks after AOTC Yoda states to Mace Windu that he does not need to practice sparring as he had enough practice with Count Dooku!

As for Vjun a lot of people tend to miss that the Dark environment there was making Yoda a lot more fierce than he usually is.

Also he was going to kill him there "LOve you enough to kill you I do.."

So clealry the fight wasnt a breeze for him, and Dooku clearly has the speed and power to compete with Yoda, (though not defeat him).

And anyone like Anakin who can defeat the Count, would have a chance at least against Yoda (in Sabers Only).

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I fear your underestimating the Great Count here!! this is blasphemy and must be addressed.

Yes I agree Yoda was holding back to a certain extent agianst Dooku in AOTC, in the sense that he didnt go completely ALL OUT like he did against Sidious, which was assination attempt. Whilst against Dooku his mission was to "Capture him".

That being said it was an extremely important mission to Capture him.. "Capture Dooku we MUST!" as in he had to stop him. and lets not forget Anakin could have "Captured Dooku" if he chose so, i.e you can chop the guys arms and legs off and still Capture him. So though he was holding back to an extent, he clearly wasnt holding back a great amount.

Also you mentioned the AOTC novel.. well did you miss the part of the where Dooku also held his own against Yodas onslaught. though later he was being forced back.

It also clearly stated that Yoda was "Exhausted" after his battle with Dooku. Also in Schism a few weeks after AOTC Yoda states to Mace Windu that he does not need to practice sparring as he had enough practice with Count Dooku!

As for Vjun a lot of people tend to miss that the Dark environment there was making Yoda a lot more fierce than he usually is.

Also he was going to kill him there "LOve you enough to kill you I do.."

So clealry the fight wasnt a breeze for him, and Dooku clearly has the speed and power to compete with Yoda, (though not defeat him).

And anyone like Anakin who can defeat the Count, would have a chance at least against Yoda (in Sabers Only).

So, err... fighting against Dooku is like practice for Yoda?

In addition, the fact remains that while on Vjun, despite being empowered by the dark side to the point that it was described as 'malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light'- Yoda still beat his ass down, overwhelming him and causing him to resort to the missle in orbit. Here is the exact paragraph:

"Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in."

Even in the dark side planet of Vjun, Dooku still wasn't a match for Yoda. I doubt that he will be an extreme challenge for Yoda if they ever fought again, on a neutral planet.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
So, err... fighting against Dooku is like practice for Yoda?

In addition, the fact remains that while on Vjun, despite being empowered by the dark side to the point that it was described as 'malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light'- Yoda still beat his ass down, overwhelming him and causing him to resort to the missle in orbit. Here is the exact paragraph:

"Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in."

Even in the dark side planet of Vjun, Dooku still wasn't a match for Yoda. I doubt that he will be an extreme challenge for Yoda if they ever fought again, on a neutral planet.

Fighting Dooku was like a Good Enough sparring session for Yoda. Good enough that he doesnt feel like he needs to spar again for a while.

Note the AOTC novel stated Yoda to be exhausted after the fight. and though Dooku was loosing, he was fast and good enough to deflect/parry all Yodas attacks.

and on Vjun the novel said "slowly, slowly, Dooku gave ground.."

so Yoda was overpowering Dooku, but Slowly.. and this is when Yoda fully admiited he was trying to kill Dooku, and when the Darkside was affecting Yoda making him much more fierce and ruthless than he usually is.

And Anakin was Even More Powerful than Dooku in Sabers.. so much more that Dookus superior duelling skill and Knowledge of the Force became "a joke.." So really how much More powerful than Dooku in Sabers do you think Yoda can handle??

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Kotor3
I have seen on many threads Dooku being an equal or match for Mace and Yoda in saber combat. If the above statement is to be taken literally then Dooku should be excluded also.

No because he was talking about which Jedis Mace should have taken with him to face Sidious. so 1. Dookus not a jedi. 2. Dooku was dead.

So please read Lucas's statements in context.

Enyalus

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
no Anakin wasnt absent from that statement, if you bothered to quote the WHOLE STATEMENT!

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the emporer. Anakin COULD HAVE defeated him had he not been injured!!"

Lucas didnt make it clear in that statement if he was talking about during ROTS or a long time afterwards.. but there was no mention there of some far off period in the future, or of Potential. and if he was talking about his potential for the future then he clearly would have stated "WOULD HAVE defeated him" and not "COULD HAVE"

Merci, Monsieur Power.

So then, I stand by what I said. Anakin can compete, and defeat, Sidious in sabers. And the next time one of you attempts to use a half-assed GL quote against me claiming it to be canon and that's that, I'm going to get very angry. And you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. evil face

Kotor3

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No because he was talking about which Jedis Mace should have taken with him to face Sidious. so 1. Dookus not a jedi. 2. Dooku was dead.

So please read Lucas's statements in context.

Darth Power I am not sure of what you are referring to. I believe you have misunderstood my statement. My statement is one of observation. I was referring to the many quotes or posts that I have read from members within KMC, like you, who feel that Dooku can compete with Sidious, Yoda, and Mace in a saber battle.

You should note that I said if we are to take Lucas quote literally.

Not sure if this clarifies my statement for you.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fighting Dooku was like a Good Enough sparring session for Yoda. Good enough that he doesnt feel like he needs to spar again for a while.

Note the AOTC novel stated Yoda to be exhausted after the fight. and though Dooku was loosing, he was fast and good enough to deflect/parry all Yodas attacks.

and on Vjun the novel said "slowly, slowly, Dooku gave ground.."

so Yoda was overpowering Dooku, but Slowly.. and this is when Yoda fully admiited he was trying to kill Dooku, and when the Darkside was affecting Yoda making him much more fierce and ruthless than he usually is.

And Anakin was Even More Powerful than Dooku in Sabers.. so much more that Dookus superior duelling skill and Knowledge of the Force became "a joke.." So really how much More powerful than Dooku in Sabers do you think Yoda can handle??

Look. Fighting Dooku might have 'exhausted' Yoda or whatever, but check out the description of their fight from the Attack of the Clones Novel:

"
Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide.

It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.

Not fast enough.

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.

Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard.

Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade.

With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.

Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.

Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade.

A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back.

The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack.

Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force."

Really, this entire friggin' fight description describes just how much Yoda is kicking Dooku's ass, overwhelming him, causing him to lose balance and become 'furious'. All with Yoda only wanting to 'capture' Dooku, not kill him, while Dooku was pissed off and bloodlusted.

To claim that Dooku is any sort of match for Yoda is absurd.

Yeah, Enyalus, Anakin can't beat Yoda, Sidious, or Mace. I'm gonna make you angry.

DARTH POWER

Of course Dooku is not Yodas equal. I wuld never claim that he was. But Dooku did manage to parry off all Yodas attacks, so obviously does have the speed and power to fight him, and even exhaust him. So thats why I say Anakin(Dookus superior in Saber combat) wuld certainly have a chance against Yoda/Sidious in Saber Combat, and Saber Combat Alone.

and like i already sed he can "Capture" Dooku with his hands chopped off just like Anakin did. Yet Anakin wasnt holding back. So I doubt Yoda was holding back an Awful lot.

And yes Anakin could beat Mace. Anakin was Arguably the Most Powerful Jedi alive even in Mace's opinion. Stop making Mace an equal to Yoda and Sidious. Mace is equal to Dooku in Lightsaber combat according to Dark Rendevouz.

he was only temporarily equal to Sidious in saber combat while fighting him thanks to Vapaad's superconducting loop it makes with a darksider.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course Dooku is not Yodas equal. I wuld never claim that he was. But Dooku did manage to parry off all Yodas attacks, so obviously does have the speed and power to fight him, and even exhaust him. So thats why I say Anakin(Dookus superior in Saber combat) wuld certainly have a chance against Yoda/Sidious in Saber Combat, and Saber Combat Alone.

and like i already sed he can "Capture" Dooku with his hands chopped off just like Anakin did. Yet Anakin wasnt holding back. So I doubt Yoda was holding back an Awful lot.

And yes Anakin could beat Mace. Anakin was Arguably the Most Powerful Jedi alive even in Mace's opinion. Stop making Mace an equal to Yoda and Sidious. Mace is equal to Dooku in Lightsaber combat according to Dark Rendevouz.

he was only temporarily equal to Sidious in saber combat while fighting him thanks to Vapaad's superconducting loop it makes with a darksider.

Anakin = Dark Side. Vaapad = Works well against dark siders. Conclusion?

Plus, Mace is a lot physically stronger, more durable, and faster than Dooku- Anakin will not be able to beat him into submission, or exhaust him. Certainly not as he did to Dooku.

And Anakin aimed to kill Dooku; he was going all-out, Yoda wasn't. Both outclassed Dooku, and, actually, when Yoda wanted to, he simply jumped and leapt all over Dooku, easily dodging or blocking Dooku's attacks.

Still, it's tough to compare their respective fights with Dooku. Nontheless, Yoda is faster, far more agile, and even HIS attacks would have driven through Dooku's defenses if the Count did not utilize the force. See a similarity to the fight with Anakin?

Enyalus

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And Anakin aimed to kill Dooku; he was going all-out, Yoda wasn't. Both outclassed Dooku, and, actually, when Yoda wanted to, he simply jumped and leapt all over Dooku, easily dodging or blocking Dooku's attacks.

Still, it's tough to compare their respective fights with Dooku. Nontheless, Yoda is faster, far more agile, and even HIS attacks would have driven through Dooku's defenses if the Count did not utilize the force. See a similarity to the fight with Anakin?

Yeah, they would have driven through his defenses if he hadn't been backed by the Force. But Anakin's did go through Dooku's defenses, even backed by the Force. Moreover, how is the fight you posted much different than the Anakin vs. Dooku battle? Both were winning. Anakin, though, crushed him. Much more convincing than what Yoda was able to do. And I understand that Yoda wasn't going for the kill in that particular battle (on Vjun it was a different story) and that Anakin was, but Anakin also wasn't Vader during that battle. And pre-suit Vader is in fact more powerful than Anakin.

One of the sourcebooks (Dark Side Sourcebook?) ranks Anakin's saber skills at 8, while pre-suit Vader is rated a 9...on the same level as Yoda and Sidious. And if Dooku is able to keep up with Yoda, and Anakin was able to destroy Dooku, and Anakin's only grown stronger and better saber-wise - then yes, he'd be able to beat Sidious and Yoda in a pure duel.

KOTOR3's original post was probably referring to this battle, in which I had specified ROTS Vader/Anakin as a Dark Sider.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yeah, they would have driven through his defenses if he hadn't been backed by the Force. But Anakin's did go through Dooku's defenses, even backed by the Force. Moreover, how is the fight you posted much different than the Anakin vs. Dooku battle? Both were winning. Anakin, though, crushed him. Much more convincing than what Yoda was able to do. And I understand that Yoda wasn't going for the kill in that particular battle (on Vjun it was a different story) and that Anakin was, but Anakin also wasn't Vader during that battle. And pre-suit Vader is in fact more powerful than Anakin.

One of the sourcebooks (Dark Side Sourcebook?) ranks Anakin's saber skills at 8, while pre-suit Vader is rated a 9...on the same level as Yoda and Sidious. And if Dooku is able to keep up with Yoda, and Anakin was able to destroy Dooku, and Anakin's only grown stronger and better saber-wise - then yes, he'd be able to beat Sidious and Yoda in a pure duel.

KOTOR3's original post was probably referring to this battle, in which I had specified ROTS Vader/Anakin as a Dark Sider.

First; against Palpatine, Anakin would be forced to go 'in teh zone' and 'crystal clear' in order to even stand a hope of outduelling Sidious; he wasn't able to focus while fighting against Obi-Wan, who is most decidedly inferior to both Sidious and Yoda. A simple taunt is all that's necessary to make Anakin go crazy, lose his concentration, and be killed by the infinitely more cunning, crafty, and intelligent Sidious.

Still, Yoda DESTROYED Dooku, as well. Dooku wasn't able to get in a position of advantage during the entire duel, and while Anakin was an enraged combatant, Yoda was calm, focused, and unwilling to kill or to harm Count Dooku. Yoda simply jumped circles all over him; Dooku, aware of the fact that he could not win, escaped. Even on Vjun, the regularly arrogant Dooku created the missle, knowing Yoda was simply too much for him.

Yeah. Not only that, but your A>B>C logical fails utterly EPICALLY, considering that Sidious and Yoda are faster, more physical, have better reflexes, are more agile, and have superior force reserves in comparison to Dooku; aside from brute strength and unyielding power, Anakin's got nuthin' on them.

Kotor3

I do not know why there is confusion over my statement. I am referring to comments made by many people in KMC. I am not going to copy all those posts from many threads to confirm my statement.

In a thread that I created called Saber Combat Tournament, see a quote from Master Crimzon.

Umm... Sidious, Yoda, Mace? Did they get sucked by a black hole while I wasn't looking (*bad end of the world joke*)?

All of them can arguably beat Bane in a lightsaber duel- Sidious and Yoda thanks to their uberzzz speed, Mace thanks to his Vaapad/Shatterpoint.

Here goes, anyway:

Round One:

ROTS Anakin vs Ulic- Anakin

Exar Kun vs Malak- Exar Kun

Kas'im vs Obi Wan- Kas'im

Bane vs Dooku- RoT Bane? PoD Bane? If the former, Bane, if the latter, Dooku. I'll assume it's RoT, so in that case, Bane wins.

ROTS Yoda vs ROTS Sidious- Could go either way. They are complete equals.

Mace vs Maul- Mace

Qui Gon vs Sion- Qui-Gon

Jacen Solo vs Post Kotor Revan- Jacen Solo

Second Round:

Anakin vs. Exar Kun- Anakin

Kas'im vs. RoT Bane- Bane

Winner of Yoda vs Sidious will face either Mace or Maul- If Yoda makes it, he beats Mace. If Sidious makes it, it could go either way.

Qui-Gon vs. Jacen- Jacen

Third Round:

Anakin vs. Bane vs. Yoda/Sidious/Mace (any of them can be here) vs. Jacen- Well, this is a toughie, but ultimately, I'm leaning towards whoever of the PT top 3 makes it here. Bane and Jacen also have a very definite chance."

One thing I notice in Master Crimzon statement is that when is comes down to the final four he starts off by saying "this is a toughie" then he states "Bane" who he pick to defeat Dooku and Kas'im has a definite chance against the PT top 3. Even Jacen has a definite chance but not Anakin who actually defeated Dooku.

Unless Bane is held much higher in regards to saber skills than Anakin I do not see how Anakin does not have a chance or cannot compete with PT top 3.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Kotor3
I do not know why there is confusion over my statement. I am referring to comments made by many people in KMC. I am not going to copy all those posts from many threads to confirm my statement.

In a thread that I created called Saber Combat Tournament, see a quote from Master Crimzon.

Umm... Sidious, Yoda, Mace? Did they get sucked by a black hole while I wasn't looking (*bad end of the world joke*)?

All of them can arguably beat Bane in a lightsaber duel- Sidious and Yoda thanks to their uberzzz speed, Mace thanks to his Vaapad/Shatterpoint.

Here goes, anyway:

Round One:

ROTS Anakin vs Ulic- Anakin

Exar Kun vs Malak- Exar Kun

Kas'im vs Obi Wan- Kas'im

Bane vs Dooku- RoT Bane? PoD Bane? If the former, Bane, if the latter, Dooku. I'll assume it's RoT, so in that case, Bane wins.

ROTS Yoda vs ROTS Sidious- Could go either way. They are complete equals.

Mace vs Maul- Mace

Qui Gon vs Sion- Qui-Gon

Jacen Solo vs Post Kotor Revan- Jacen Solo

Second Round:

Anakin vs. Exar Kun- Anakin

Kas'im vs. RoT Bane- Bane

Winner of Yoda vs Sidious will face either Mace or Maul- If Yoda makes it, he beats Mace. If Sidious makes it, it could go either way.

Qui-Gon vs. Jacen- Jacen

Third Round:

Anakin vs. Bane vs. Yoda/Sidious/Mace (any of them can be here) vs. Jacen- Well, this is a toughie, but ultimately, I'm leaning towards whoever of the PT top 3 makes it here. Bane and Jacen also have a very definite chance."

One thing I notice in Master Crimzon statement is that when is comes down to the final four he starts off by saying "this is a toughie" then he states "Bane" who he pick to defeat Dooku and Kas'im has a definite chance against the PT top 3. Even Jacen has a definite chance but not Anakin who actually defeated Dooku.

Unless Bane is held much higher in regards to saber skills than Anakin I do not see how Anakin does not have a chance or cannot compete with PT top 3.

Orbalisks.

'Nuff said. Bane is faster, more built, and has reserves of stamina perhaps equal to Anakin's own, but orbalisks seal the deal. Anakin's style is relatively impercise and focuses on strength over finesse and accuracy; he simply won't be able to get past Bane's orbalisks, and will end up with a dismembered, mutiliated body. The PT greats have, in the case of Yoda and Sidious, speeds in excess of Bane's, and are more agile, giving them the potential ability to destroy Bane's lightsaber, de-hand him, or cut off his head. Mace? Vaapad will give him the ability to physically compete with Bane, and Shatterpoint will provide him with the ability to strike at one of Bane's spots of weakness.

Yeah. Ironic, how I went into a rant after I said 'nuff said'. Lolz.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Orbalisks.

'Nuff said. Bane is faster, more built, and has reserves of stamina perhaps equal to Anakin's own, but orbalisks seal the deal. Anakin's style is relatively impercise and focuses on strength over finesse and accuracy; he simply won't be able to get past Bane's orbalisks, and will end up with a dismembered, mutiliated body. The PT greats have, in the case of Yoda and Sidious, speeds in excess of Bane's, and are more agile, giving them the potential ability to destroy Bane's lightsaber, de-hand him, or cut off his head. Mace? Vaapad will give him the ability to physically compete with Bane, and Shatterpoint will provide him with the ability to strike at one of Bane's spots of weakness.

Yeah. Ironic, how I went into a rant after I said 'nuff said'. Lolz.

Good explanation! I wait to see the responses.

truejedi

this is kinda ridiculous isn't it? The ROTS anakin vs. Mace , and therefore vs. sidious has been settled long ago... Honestly, Anakin's main claim to fame IS defeating Dooku. A fight in which dooku, for much of the match, faced 2 opponents, took a beating before managing to disable Kenobi, and Still held the advantage over Anakin, until, trying to turn anakin to the dark-side, he unwittingly gave anakin the focus he needed to defeat Dooku. Basically Dooku taunted anakin into killing dooku. He also showed the ability to unfocus Anakin whenever he wanted to. He only lost the ability near the end of the fight when he didn't have time for words.

Sidious was disarmed and defeated by windu, sidious being an opponent that Yoda was unable to defeat, but was able to stalemate.

To say anakin could compete with sidious is absurd as saying Obi-wan could. Obi-Wan could NOT compete with sidious, quoted by Yoda. It's pretty simple, if anakin can't be kenobi, he's not going to beat sidious, and he most certiainly isn't going to beat Mace unless he sucker attacks him and costs him an arm again...

Enyalus

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
First; against Palpatine, Anakin would be forced to go 'in teh zone' and 'crystal clear' in order to even stand a hope of outduelling Sidious; he wasn't able to focus while fighting against Obi-Wan, who is most decidedly inferior to both Sidious and Yoda. A simple taunt is all that's necessary to make Anakin go crazy, lose his concentration, and be killed by the infinitely more cunning, crafty, and intelligent Sidious.

I don't know how many times you have to be told that psychology of characters are not taken into account in vs. matches. And that wouldn't even be true. Dooku taunted Anakin. Look how that turned out. Furthermore, Anakin's only battle during ROTS was when he was 'in the zone'. The other fights? Vader. Who is stronger, faster, and better than in the zone Anakin. The one who was able to annihilate the Jedi Temple Battlemaster one-handed while using his free empty hand to kill his padawan. The one who first landed on Mustafar to destroy the Trade Federation and was so deeply immersed in the Dark Side that his eyes were red and yellow. That one.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Still, Yoda DESTROYED Dooku, as well. Dooku wasn't able to get in a position of advantage during the entire duel, and while Anakin was an enraged combatant, Yoda was calm, focused, and unwilling to kill or to harm Count Dooku. Yoda simply jumped circles all over him; Dooku, aware of the fact that he could not win, escaped. Even on Vjun, the regularly arrogant Dooku created the missle, knowing Yoda was simply too much for him.

Dooku was fast enough to parry all of his strikes and deal with Yoda's ridiculous leaping around.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah. Not only that, but your A>B>C logical fails utterly EPICALLY, considering that Sidious and Yoda are faster, more physical, have better reflexes, are more agile, and have superior force reserves in comparison to Dooku; aside from brute strength and unyielding power, Anakin's got nuthin' on them.

I sense you're either ignoring what myself and others have been pointing out, or just not reading them. Dooku was able to compete with Yoda. Dooku was able to parry all of Yoda's attacks. And Anakin destroyed Dooku. That means that Anakin should be able to compete with Yoda in a saber match. Make him Vader, who is even stronger, faster, and more skilled - and he would be able to do more than simply "compete."

Also, Yoda and Sidious 'more physical' than Anakin? That wasn't serious, was it? Since you yourself said he had the advantage in 'brute strength.' Anakin's much more physically strong than either.

As for reflexes - you mean the Yoda who didn't react fast enough to put up a barrier to Sidious' lightning, and got knocked out? Or when he had the lightsaber blown out of his hand because he didn't react fast enough to parry?

And more agile? Yoda perhaps. Against Sidious? Um, no. You did see the twisting backflip Anakin uses to close a good 20 ft distance against Obi-Wan at the beginning of their battle, right?

'Superior force reserves'? Anakin's got the highest Force reserves in the PT era by far, bar none. Enough to make Sidious or Yoda's look like a joke.

Jbill311

When Dooku taunted Anakin, it threw him out of 'teh zone'. Dooku even points out (to himself) that Sidious would have to work on the boy's ego. The one taunt was enough to throw him off of his perfect game. DE Luke (I think) knows Dun Moch- surely a way to throw Anakin off balance.

It takes Sidious interfering with the fight, goading Anakin to use his emotions, to turn the fight back to Anakin's favor.

Yoda decided not to give in to the Darkside. He was tempted to strike Dooku down, and could have done it, but decided to move the missile instead. He thoroughly trounced Dooku in sabers, by any account. He is simply better. In both of their duels, he either wants to capture him, or resist the D.S. Dooku =/= Yoda- even in sabers.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Enyalus

I don't know how many times you have to be told that psychology of characters are not taken into account in vs. matches. And that wouldn't even be true. Dooku taunted Anakin. Look how that turned out. Furthermore, Anakin's only battle during ROTS was when he was 'in the zone'. The other fights? Vader. Who is stronger, faster, and better than in the zone Anakin. The one who was able to annihilate the Jedi Temple Battlemaster one-handed while using his free empty hand to kill his padawan. The one who first landed on Mustafar to destroy the Trade Federation and was so deeply immersed in the Dark Side that his eyes were red and yellow. That one.

In-correcto. In his fight against Obi-Wan, Anakin was unfocused and full of rage- so much for him being teh uberz in terms of speed and skill, considering Obi-Wan kept up with him very nicely. The RotS novel even elaborates that in an unseen section of the duel, Obi-Wan disarmed and hesitated to kill Anakin. He could have, but didn't.

So, unless you think Obi-Wan can keep up with Yoda or Sidious, do you honestly think that Anakin even approaches the two in terms of speed and skill?

Oh, and against Dooku, Anakin never once outclassed him in terms of speed. Hell, even you conceded the point. Yoda vastly outclassed him and was rapidly overwhelming him. Anakin exhausted him, performed a feint, grabbed his hand, and cut off his saber hand. Point is, Anakin simply could not outclass Dooku in speed like Yoda did. Sidious is Yoda's equal in speed. Conclusion? Sidious and Yoda are both considerably faster than lil' Skywalker.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Dooku was fast enough to parry all of his strikes and deal with Yoda's ridiculous leaping around.

To barely block them. And that's different than his fight against Anakin... how?

Originally posted by Enyalus
I sense you're either ignoring what myself and others have been pointing out, or just not reading them. Dooku was able to compete with Yoda. Dooku was able to parry all of Yoda's attacks. And Anakin destroyed Dooku. That means that Anakin should be able to compete with Yoda in a saber match. Make him Vader, who is even stronger, faster, and more skilled - and he would be able to do more than simply "compete."

Anakin 'in teh zone' = able to outclass Dooku physically and in terms of stamina. God, he never came close to leaping around Dooku and overwhelming him with speed like Yoda did.

Anakin 'Vader' = Was defeated by Obi-Wan. After Obi-Wan kept up with him quite nicely.

Originally posted by Enyalus
lso, Yoda and Sidious 'more physical' than Anakin? That wasn't serious, was it? Since you yourself said he had the advantage in 'brute strength.' Anakin's much more physically strong than either.

As for reflexes - you mean the Yoda who didn't react fast enough to put up a barrier to Sidious' lightning, and got knocked out? Or when he had the lightsaber blown out of his hand because he didn't react fast enough to parry?

And more agile? Yoda perhaps. Against Sidious? Um, no. You did see the twisting backflip Anakin uses to close a good 20 ft distance against Obi-Wan at the beginning of their battle, right?

'Superior force reserves'? Anakin's got the highest Force reserves in the PT era by far, bar none. Enough to make Sidious or Yoda's look like a joke.

All of my points are actually about Dooku, not Anakin. Sidious is more agile than Anakin, in any case; his duel with Mace proves it.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
In-correcto. In his fight against Obi-Wan, Anakin was unfocused and full of rage- so much for him being teh uberz in terms of speed and skill, considering Obi-Wan kept up with him very nicely. The RotS novel even elaborates that in an unseen section of the duel, Obi-Wan disarmed and hesitated to kill Anakin. He could have, but didn't.

So, unless you think Obi-Wan can keep up with Yoda or Sidious, do you honestly think that Anakin even approaches the two in terms of speed and skill?

So you're saying that Obi-Wan can keep up with and defeat Count Dooku because he did so to Vader? Clearly, that was a low showing due to Vader's mental condition at the time. Peak showing for Vader would be the Cin Drallig dismantling. And, again - according to the sourcebook, Vader's saber skills are a 9, on par with Yoda and Sidious.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, and against Dooku, Anakin never once outclassed him in terms of speed. Hell, even you conceded the point. Yoda vastly outclassed him and was rapidly overwhelming him. Anakin exhausted him, performed a feint, grabbed his hand, and cut off his saber hand. Point is, Anakin simply could not outclass Dooku in speed like Yoda did. Sidious is Yoda's equal in speed. Conclusion? Sidious and Yoda are both considerably faster than lil' Skywalker.

Dooku could not properly angle his blade to simply deflect Anakin's. This was due to Anakin's power and speed. Not allowing Dooku to be in a proper position. I'll find the quote tonight, when I'm home. And no, Yoda did not rapidly overwhelm Dooku. 'Slowly, slowly.' So don't lie.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin 'in teh zone' = able to outclass Dooku physically and in terms of stamina. God, he never came close to leaping around Dooku and overwhelming him with speed like Yoda did.

Anakin 'Vader' = Was defeated by Obi-Wan. After Obi-Wan kept up with him quite nicely.

Again, low showing. Vader is more skilled and better than ROTS Anakin. Also, since when does Anakin leap around, anyway? He uses Djem So, not Ataru, so he'd have no reason to.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Sidious is more agile than Anakin, in any case; his duel with Mace proves it.

No.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Enyalus

So you're saying that Obi-Wan can keep up with and defeat Count Dooku because he did so to Vader? Clearly, that was a low showing due to Vader's mental condition at the time. Peak showing for Vader would be the Cin Drallig dismantling. And, again - according to the sourcebook, Vader's saber skills are a 9, on par with Yoda and Sidious.

No. But Obi-Wan could certainly keep up with Dooku, even if he doesn't have a real hope of beating the Count in a lightsaber duel...

And, seriously, 'mental condition' may affect skill and percision, but speed and strength? Hardly. If anything, the dark side would heighten Anakin's physical attributes.

And yeah, I know Vader is a '9'. But that's not just skills, that's abilities with a saber, period. Force prowess included. Sorry, Anakin never demonstrated the speed necessary to deal with Yoda and Sidious; he never, ever duelled someone as fast as they are.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Dooku could not properly angle his blade to simply deflect Anakin's. This was due to Anakin's power and speed. Not allowing Dooku to be in a proper position. I'll find the quote tonight, when I'm home. And no, Yoda did not rapidly overwhelm Dooku. 'Slowly, slowly.' So don't lie.

Yeah. But Nick Gillard told me that Anakin is really a level 6. I'm a personal friend of his. Great guy.

And pff!! How dare you call me a liar, foo!

Seriously. Provide the quote and we can elaborate. 'Till you can, drop the point.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Again, low showing. Vader is more skilled and better than ROTS Anakin. Also, since when does Anakin leap around, anyway? He uses Djem So, not Ataru, so he'd have no reason to.

Anakin does have some rudimentary training in Ataru, if I'm not mistaken- the two blades form was based on that- but we can see how epically THAT failed. He's never fought with an extremely agile opponent, in any case; his defense is fairly limited, so there's no knowing how he'll deal with the fast, rapid, multi-angular and unpredictable bladework of Yoda and Sidious.

Honestly. Sidious is ONLY matched in 'natural' speed by Yoda. Mace was forced to rely on a different technique, and the people who didn't possess it- namely Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto- were quickly overwhelmed and struck down by Sidious' incredible speed. I'm not saying Anakin will just be speed-blitzed, but he's never displayed the ability to deal with someone of that levels of speed.

And Yoda vs. Dooku elaborated on Yoda jumping around, overwhelming, and confusing Dooku's bladework- speed advantages. Anakin vs. Dooku was about Dooku tiring out and being overwhelmed by Anakin's incredible strength and stamina. Nothin' bout speed.

Originally posted by Enyalus
No.

Yes.

Faunus

Ventress.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Kotor3
Darth Power I am not sure of what you are referring to. I believe you have misunderstood my statement. My statement is one of observation. I was referring to the many quotes or posts that I have read from members within KMC, like you, who feel that Dooku can compete with Sidious, Yoda, and Mace in a saber battle.

You should note that I said if we are to take Lucas quote literally.

Not sure if this clarifies my statement for you.

Oh sorry about that.. Must have misread your quote.. I just get really frustrated when people take that quote out of context like so many people do on these boards.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Faunus
Ventress.

Oh, yeah.

She's not Sidious or Yoda, though. Not even close.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Enyalus
Merci, Monsieur Power.

So then, I stand by what I said. Anakin can compete, and defeat, Sidious in sabers. And the next time one of you attempts to use a half-assed GL quote against me claiming it to be canon and that's that, I'm going to get very angry. And you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. evil face

No problem. i learned long time ago on these boards not just to accept the quotes people give you here without checking it up yourself.

Enyalus

And have you never asked yourself why this is? Hmmm....because they're two of the strongest of anyone in the PT era in the Force, maybe? Which means greater Force Speed?

And...who, exactly has the highest potential and Force Reserves to call upon such Force Speed, especially as Vader?

And..."I'm more powerful than Palpatine now. I can overthrow him."
"I'm more powerful than any of you! "
"My powers have doubled since we last met."
And Mace Windu calling him the fastest and most powerful Jedi.

And this is before his power increases from turning to the Dark Side (except the first one). So stick out tongue

Faunus

Mace never calls him the fastest and most powerful Jedi. He's noted to be the strongest and fastest of his generation, and Mace believes that he is the most powerful Jedi alive (duh).

And really, don't take Anakin's statements about power at face value, ever.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Faunus
Mace never calls him the fastest and most powerful Jedi. He's noted to be the strongest and fastest of his generation, and Mace believes that he is the most powerful Jedi alive (duh).

And really, don't take Anakin's statements about power at face value, ever.

Thank you, I couldn't recall word for word what Mace said. However, he tells the council directly, "I'm more powerful than any of you," and they don't really correct him...

Gideon

Originally posted by Faunus
Mace never calls him the fastest and most powerful Jedi. He's noted to be the strongest and fastest of his generation, and Mace believes that he is the most powerful Jedi alive (duh).

And really, don't take Anakin's statements about power at face value, ever.

The omniscient narrator also refers to him as "perhaps of any generation. Stop bitching, sir. Anakin's l33t amongst duelists.

Faunus

"Perhaps," and since he's clearly not (Yoda, Sidious), moot "point."

Enyalus

Originally posted by Faunus
"Perhaps," and since he's clearly not (Yoda, Sidious), moot "point."

Like I said, pre-suited Vader...I see no reason why he couldn't beat either of them in a pure saber duel. Especially with the increased power.

Gideon

Originally posted by Faunus
"Perhaps," and since he's clearly not (Yoda, Sidious), moot "point."

The quote is a sign that he can contend with just about anyone in pure speed and strength. No moot point.

Faunus

Don't try and force your own interpretation upon the quote, Gideon, especially when the novel itself contradicts such an idea by having Anakin be dumbfounded by the speed and ferocity of the duel between Mace and Sidious, and has Obi-Wan - "strong enough to defeat the Emperor, you will never be" - in a position to kill a disarmed Anakin.

Gideon

Originally posted by Faunus
Don't try and force your own interpretation upon the quote, Gideon, especially when the novel itself contradicts such an idea by having Anakin be dumbfounded by the speed and ferocity of the duel between Mace and Sidious, and has Obi-Wan - "strong enough to defeat the Emperor, you will never be" - in a position to kill a disarmed Anakin.

Did you get enough sleep today?

This is what I said: "The quote is a sign that he can contend with just about anyone in pure speed and strength. No moot point."

That he was impressed with Palpatine's speed (not Mace's) and that he was nearly killed by Obi-Wan aborts the idea that he can contend with just about anyone in pure speed and strength?

That's... um... pretty dumb.

truejedi

there is obviously a lot more to a duel than strength and speed though... or else grievous would be the number one guy of all time, MORE THAN CAPABLE of beating sidious.

Would you pick grievous over sidoius in a saber's only battle? (one saber only, because we are relying merely on grievous's speed and strength to be too much for sidious) Or would you pick grievous over mace? or even grievous over obi-wan? Because Grievous was obviously stronger and faster than each of these duelists individually, but you throw in the force element, (to the extent that they can duel normally) which you HAVE to throw it in, if any Jedi EVER has a chance, and all of those fights involving grievous go back to the opponent.

So Anakin, even if he can "compete" against the top tier fighters in speed and strength, he still lacks the sword fighting ability to compete with the masters.
e.g. ("Don't try it! " you underestimate my power raaaaaaahhhh!!! *doom and destruction ensuing* "i hate you... blah blah blah)

If you can prove that anakin is as fast as mace, (which you can't, conclusively) and if you can prove that anakin is as strong as mace (which i don't think anyone is arguing with) then what have you proved? that Reggie Bush is as good as Ladanian Tomlinson? I think we all know the answer to that. There is a lot more to winning a fight than speed and power. (Leonidas killing the giant mutant dude comes to mind as i wrap this up)

Gideon

I wasn't arguing that Skywalker was capable of defeating anyone here in a duel. But he's far better conditioned as a fighter than his son, possesses more prodigious strength, and vast reserves of Force energy as well. Obviously, though, he hasn't mastered the Force to nearly as great of an extent.

truejedi

Originally posted by Gideon
I wasn't arguing that Skywalker was capable of defeating anyone here in a duel. But he's far better conditioned as a fighter than his son, possesses more prodigious strength, and vast reserves of Force energy as well. Obviously, though, he hasn't mastered the Force to nearly as great of an extent.

yeah, i'd definitly agree with that.

Enyalus

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin = Dark Side. Vaapad = Works well against dark siders. Conclusion?

well it depends of course if we are talking about Jedi Anakin or Sith Anakin. cause Vapaad wuldnt do anything against Jedi Anakin.

Even agaisnt Sith Anakin Vapaad wuld put Mace in Anakin's league, in terms of Strength and Speed, which wuld certainly give Mace the advantage.. but then it wuld be like the Mace vs. Sidious fight where they were both equal. so I still think it wuld be a bit of a stretch to say Dark Side Anakin wuld not even have a hope of defeating Mace.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Plus, Mace is a lot physically stronger, more durable, and faster than Dooku- Anakin will not be able to beat him into submission, or exhaust him. Certainly not as he did to Dooku.

Physical strength doesnt mean squat next to Strength in the Force. Dooku has tremendous strength in the Force which is how he was able to kick ROTS Anakin far away landing on his rear. Yoda describes Dooku in Dark Rendevouz as "Most Learned in the ways of the Force", and that was Dooku as a Jedi. ROTS tells us that Dooku was one of the "MOst Powerful Jedis in its 25000 year history, and an Even More Powerful Sith!"

The AOTC novel describes the way Dooku fights Yoda as "Letting the Force flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its Power." Dark Rendezvous says something similar as well. and the ROTS novel describes how Dooku constantly replenishes his strength through the Force. All this of course was next to useless against Anakin who has near limitless Force Reserves.

I mean seriously Yoda and Sidious are "Physically" very weak, probably much weaker than Dooku. So What??

As for Mace being Faster than Dooku??? dnt knw where you got that from considering Dooku had the Speed to compete against Yoda whereas Mace did not have the speed to compete against Sidious before his Superconducting loop came into play.

Hers what it says in Dark Rendezvous "The Counts blade was as quick as a viper striking. Among the other jedi perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground:"

That doesnt sound like Mace is Faster to me. In fact it sounds like at best Mace could hope to be as fast as Dooku.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And Anakin aimed to kill Dooku; he was going all-out, Yoda wasn't. Both outclassed Dooku, and, actually, when Yoda wanted to, he simply jumped and leapt all over Dooku, easily dodging or blocking Dooku's attacks.

Actually according to Rots novel Anakin decided to win.. not kill. and we all know Anakin was in 2 minds about killing Dooku from that scene in the movie.

This is proof that just because your not aiming to kill, doesnt mean you have to hold back to win. Theres still nothing stopping Yoda chopping Dookus limbs off, or at least his hands. Or simply just cut him the way Dooku cut Obi-1.

as for Yoda simply outclassing Yoda, lets not forget Dooku still managed to parry off all his attacks. On Yodas first Lightsbaer Attack of Dooku when his lightsaber outshone both of Anakins at the peak of his dance, the AOTC novel says "Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly,"

Though Yodas second and third attack were Forcing Dooku back.. his third attack even putting Dooku of balance for the First Time, yet Dooku still parryed the attacks.

Then the fight ended with Yoda and Dooku locked "in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.." where Yoda was forcing Dooku back "Just a Little.." while congratulating him on how well hes fought.

Then after Dooku escapes Anakin and Obi1 walk over to the "Exhausted Yoda." So clealry though Dooku could Never have Actually Won, he clearly does have the speed and strength to Compete against the likes of Yoda/Sidious even exhausting them in fighting him.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yoda was calm, focused, and unwilling to kill or to harm Count Dooku.

Oh come on! your telling me Yoda wasnt Willing to Even HARM Dooku. next youll tell me Yoda refused to even give Dooku a smack bottom!!

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And yeah, I know Vader is a '9'. But that's not just skills, that's abilities with a saber, period. Force prowess included. Sorry, Anakin never demonstrated the speed necessary to deal with Yoda and Sidious; he never, ever duelled someone as fast as they are.

Your not making any sense. if Anakin didnt have the necessary speed to contend with Yoda or Sidious then he wuldnt be a Level 9 right up there with them.

Your trying very hard to prove hes not in their league in a saber fight when its already been said by Nick Gillard that he is. Seriously your argument is pointless.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well it depends of course if we are talking about Jedi Anakin or Sith Anakin. cause Vapaad wuldnt do anything against Jedi Anakin.

When Anakin goes 'in teh zone', I'm fairly certain he uses the dark side; besides, he's never displayed the speeds Mace was capable of displaying. I'll substantiate on that later.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even agaisnt Sith Anakin Vapaad wuld put Mace in Anakin's league, in terms of Strength and Speed, which wuld certainly give Mace the advantage.. but then it wuld be like the Mace vs. Sidious fight where they were both equal. so I still think it wuld be a bit of a stretch to say Dark Side Anakin wuld not even have a hope of defeating Mace.

It's not like the fight with Sidious, where Sidious outclassed Mace in terms of speed; Anakin is slower than Mace, even in Mace's 'regular' form. Anakin's advantages of force power, energy, and strength will be easily negated; and Anakin's not exhausting Mace, which is a big reason as to why he was capable of beating Dooku, because Mace is a built, physically fit Jedi, capable of breaking through durasteel with his bare hands.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Physical strength doesnt mean squat next to Strength in the Force. Dooku has tremendous strength in the Force which is how he was able to kick ROTS Anakin far away landing on his rear. Yoda describes Dooku in Dark Rendevouz as "Most Learned in the ways of the Force", and that was Dooku as a Jedi. ROTS tells us that Dooku was one of the "MOst Powerful Jedis in its 25000 year history, and an Even More Powerful Sith!"

And your point is...? I've always argued for Dooku's proficiency.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The AOTC novel describes the way Dooku fights Yoda as "Letting the Force flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its Power." Dark Rendezvous says something similar as well. and the ROTS novel describes how Dooku constantly replenishes his strength through the Force. All this of course was next to useless against Anakin who has near limitless Force Reserves.

And Yoda freakin' outclassed him. Yoda is more controlled and reserved than Anakin, and while holding back considerably- to prevent himself from dealing lethal damage to Dooku (Ataru isn't known for its percision, accuracy, and smooth disarming capabilities)- he still jumped circles around Dooku, causing him to "skip backward desperately"; in their first confrontation, although Dooku went into a 'wild flurry' (read: Going all-out), Yoda, without even MOVING, blocked all of the blows effortlessly.

Stop denying it. Yoda outclassed Dooku, plain and simple, despite holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I mean seriously Yoda and Sidious are "Physically" very weak, probably much weaker than Dooku. So What??

You just said it; strength in the force > physical strength, and therefore, Sidious and Yoda- who have a mastery of the force unparalleled within the PT- should be able to utilize considerably more strength than Dooku. Hell, the AotC novel notes that Yoda's strikes would have 'driven through' the Count's defenses if it wasn't for his force abilities.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for Mace being Faster than Dooku??? dnt knw where you got that from considering Dooku had the Speed to compete against Yoda whereas Mace did not have the speed to compete against Sidious before his Superconducting loop came into play.

Okay. Sidious outclassed Mace considerably in speed, BUT Mace was still able to keep up, although he held the defensive. Jesus, if he couldn't keep up, he would have lost his head. Now then, you think Yoda isn't considerably faster than Dooku?

"It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.

Not fast enough.

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance."

"Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard."

"Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately."

"Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade."

Yeah. You know what all these quotes have in common? They all describe just how BADLY Yoda outclassed Dooku in speed, jumping all over him, overwhelming him, and blocking or dodging every single one of his attacks effortlessly, forseeing them beforehand. Honestly, if Yoda went all-out, his speed would be far too much for the Count to handle.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hers what it says in Dark Rendezvous "The Counts blade was as quick as a viper striking. Among the other jedi perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground:"

That doesnt sound like Mace is Faster to me. In fact it sounds like at best Mace could hope to be as fast as Dooku.

According to Shatterpoint, there are all sorts of quotes that state that Mace was 'invisible' in comparison to the beastly Kar Vastor, for example. He was, using force speed, capable of owning an entire army of droids with his bare hands, dodging all of their blaster bolts easily and ripping them apart with super-fast punches.

Dooku is not as fast as Mace. Now, display to me where Dooku was able to move at speeds even close to that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually according to Rots novel Anakin decided to win.. not kill. and we all know Anakin was in 2 minds about killing Dooku from that scene in the movie.

This is proof that just because your not aiming to kill, doesnt mean you have to hold back to win. Theres still nothing stopping Yoda chopping Dookus limbs off, or at least his hands. Or simply just cut him the way Dooku cut Obi-1.

as for Yoda simply outclassing Yoda, lets not forget Dooku still managed to parry off all his attacks. On Yodas first Lightsbaer Attack of Dooku when his lightsaber outshone both of Anakins at the peak of his dance, the AOTC novel says "Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly,"

Though Yodas second and third attack were Forcing Dooku back.. his third attack even putting Dooku of balance for the First Time, yet Dooku still parryed the attacks.

Then the fight ended with Yoda and Dooku locked "in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.." where Yoda was forcing Dooku back "Just a Little.." while congratulating him on how well hes fought.

Then after Dooku escapes Anakin and Obi1 walk over to the "Exhausted Yoda." So clealry though Dooku could Never have Actually Won, he clearly does have the speed and strength to Compete against the likes of Yoda/Sidious even exhausting them in fighting him.

Oh, no, he doesn't. Yoda completely and utterly outclassed him. Please, stop denying it- the entire damn fight scene describes how much Yoda was owning him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh come on! your telling me Yoda wasnt Willing to Even HARM Dooku. next youll tell me Yoda refused to even give Dooku a smack bottom!!

With Yoda's speed, ferocity, and acrobatics, it's very difficult to land a percise, incapacitation (but not killing) strike.

Your not making any sense. if Anakin didnt have the necessary speed to contend with Yoda or Sidious then he wuldnt be a Level 9 right up there with them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your trying very hard to prove hes not in their league in a saber fight when its already been said by Nick Gillard that he is. Seriously your argument is pointless.

There could be very much a considerable difference between 'level 9's'. Somebody could get a 91 on a quiz and another guy can get a 99. They're both in the '90's' range, but there's a difference between them.

Besides, Anakin IS, and will be able to give any of them a very good fight, and he is capable of feats they are incapable of of- his force reserves are unmatched and his 'Stronger a fight progresses' ability is completely unique to him. Point being, Anakin is a badass in saber abilities, but he doesn't have the speed or the agility to defeat the likes of Yoda.

DARTH POWER

haha! me and you always get into really long debates, neither of us giving in.. but thats ok. Neway....

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
When Anakin goes 'in teh zone', I'm fairly certain he uses the dark side;

he might do... but im sure Vapaad's superconducting loop works against actual Darksiders, and not Lightsiders with a bit of Rage in them. If it does work against Anakin then ill admit Mace wins more times than not, but only because Mace will use Anakins own power against him, not because Mace is faster or more powerful in any way.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
besides, he's never displayed the speeds Mace was capable of displaying. I'll substantiate on that later.

have you seen the new animated movie. Anakins shown to be extremely fast and agile. and it doesnt look exaggerated or overblown like the CWmini series.

Anyway he doesnt have to show it. The narrator of the ROTS novel tells us "The Fastest. The Strongest." his strength and speed have been put together there. Implying hes just as fast as he is strong, because his almost limitlees Force Reserves give him both those things above everyone elses.
Not to mention Durge tells him in Obsessions that hes the Fastest Jedi hes ever come across. So im not sure where your getting this that Mace is Faster. Iv not seen any proof of that.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It's not like the fight with Sidious, where Sidious outclassed Mace in terms of speed; Anakin is slower than Mace, even in Mace's 'regular' form..
Nope. still not buying that. I just dnt think that youve proven that Mace is faster than the Strongest and Fastest Jedi.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin's advantages of force power, energy, and strength will be easily negated; and Anakin's not exhausting Mace, which is a big reason as to why he was capable of beating Dooku, because Mace is a built, physically fit Jedi, capable of breaking through durasteel with his bare hands.

Was that his actual physical strength? or was it his strngth in the Force + Shatterpoint ability combined. thats the impression i always got.

Also you seem to think Anakins huge Force Energy and Reserves only grant him strength. It grants him just as much speed.

But hey ok, your saying Mace will last longer because he has better stamina than Dooku. becuase he wnt tire that easily. Hey thats fine. I can agree with that. You see im reasonable if I feel im getting a good argument back backed by proof. But I still see Mace struggling against someone SO Powerful, who just gets stronger as the fight progresses.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And Yoda freakin' outclassed him. Yoda is more controlled and reserved than Anakin, and while holding back considerably- to prevent himself from dealing lethal damage to Dooku (Ataru isn't known for its percision, accuracy, and smooth disarming capabilities)- he still jumped circles around Dooku, causing him to "skip backward desperately"; in their first confrontation, although Dooku went into a 'wild flurry' (read: Going all-out), Yoda, without even MOVING, blocked all of the blows effortlessly.
Stop denying it. Yoda outclassed Dooku, plain and simple, despite holding back.

Well im not so sure on how much he was holding back. I mean the Novel doenst state Yoda as holding back. and I dnt think the word "Capture" on its own says much, considering Mace went to Capture/Arrest Palpatine.. so do you think Mace was holding back in their fight as well??? and I think using Ataru as an excuse for him not cutting Dooku anywhere but his Head is a bit Lame.
If he was really outclassing him SO BADLY then Jumping all around him he should have been able to cut him somewhere.
And you say Yoda did so "Effortlessly", but clearly it wasnt Effortlessly otherwise the Jedi Master wuldnt have been "Exhausted" after the fight, and wuldnt have felt like he doesnt need to Saber sparring practice for a Good while now.
But I admit Yoda did outclass him. Of course he did. Dooku wuld never be able to beat him. But he did have the "Speed" and "Power" to compete otherwise he wuldnt have been able to keep parrying the attacks, and he would have been "Captured" for sure.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah. You know what all these quotes have in common? They all describe just how BADLY Yoda outclassed Dooku in speed, jumping all over him, overwhelming him, and blocking or dodging every single one of his attacks effortlessly, forseeing them beforehand. Honestly, if Yoda went all-out, his speed would be far too much for the Count to handle..

Yeah because your being quite selsctive in your quotes. You missed out the part "Dooku held strong though, his red blade parrying brilliantly." Now how do you think Dooku could have done that if he didnt have the speed to compete?? I know Yoda is faster, but you cant deny the Counts speed and precision there.
It seems Dooku tended to do worse in the fight when he got frustrated that he could never gain any kind of advantage.
Also You also missed out the part where the fight ended with the 2 of them locked in a saber lock, on a "contest of strength" where Yoda started to overpower him "just a little", and congratulated the Count on giving him a good fight.. and finally uv missed the end where it states Yoda was Exhausted.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
According to Shatterpoint, there are all sorts of quotes that state that Mace was 'invisible' in comparison to the beastly Kar Vastor, for example. He was, using force speed, capable of owning an entire army of droids with his bare hands, dodging all of their blaster bolts easily and ripping them apart with super-fast punches.
Dooku is not as fast as Mace. Now, display to me where Dooku was able to move at speeds even close to that. ..

you still seem to ignore what the narrators tell us.. which is in Bladework(which included speed) that Dooku was easily Maces equal. Also they fought in Obsession, and they both kept their gorund fighting completley even.. and Mace WAS trying to KILL him.. now you tell me If Mace was so much faster why he didnt just strike him down there and then???

but you have convinced me that Mace would eventually win the saber fight against dooku simply because Dooku would tire first. so I guess our debates arnt entirely pointless smile

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
haha! me and you always get into really long debates, neither of us giving in.. but thats ok. Neway....

Yes. There's been longer, though. Like... 13 page arguments.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
he might do... but im sure Vapaad's superconducting loop works against actual Darksiders, and not Lightsiders with a bit of Rage in them. If it does work against Anakin then ill admit Mace wins more times than not, but only because Mace will use Anakins own power against him, not because Mace is faster or more powerful in any way.

We don't exactly know percisely how Mace's superconducting loop works, but we can assume that it reproduces dark side energies within others and uses it for the user's own benefit. For once, even lightsiders with a 'bit of rage' within them generate dark side energy- everyone using the dark side to some extent does, and therefore, Mace's Vaapad will certainly come into play.

Mace IS faster than Anakin. Anakin possesses different advantages, true, but Mace IS faster.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
have you seen the new animated movie. Anakins shown to be extremely fast and agile. and it doesnt look exaggerated or overblown like the CWmini series.

Nope. Not sure I intend to, either. How is it?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway he doesnt have to show it. The narrator of the ROTS novel tells us "The Fastest. The Strongest." his strength and speed have been put together there. Implying hes just as fast as he is strong, because his almost limitlees Force Reserves give him both those things above everyone elses.
Not to mention Durge tells him in Obsessions that hes the Fastest Jedi hes ever come across. So im not sure where your getting this that Mace is Faster. Iv not seen any proof of that.

Okay. The only other truly notable Jedi in Anakin's actual generation is Obi-Wan (Durge also came across him). So, all that means is that Anakin is faster than Obi-Wan; and look how that turned out. Obi-Wan held his own nicely, which requires keeping up with a crazy Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nope. still not buying that. I just dnt think that youve proven that Mace is faster than the Strongest and Fastest Jedi.

'Of his generation'. Kindly remember that.

Mace's speed depictions, from Shatterpoint to the CW series > Anakin's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Was that his actual physical strength? or was it his strngth in the Force + Shatterpoint ability combined. thats the impression i always got.

Maybe it's physical strength aided by the force, but he didn't actually tough their bodies in percise locations; he just punches them and ripped out their circuits.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also you seem to think Anakins huge Force Energy and Reserves only grant him strength. It grants him just as much speed.

Yeah, it does, but to Sidious', Yoda's, and Mace's extent? All are vastly more potent and masterful force users. In the case of Yoda and Sidious, they're frail old dewds who are forced to rely on the force to an extreme level to compete with physical opponents; their speed is simply incredible. Well beyond Anakin's own.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But hey ok, your saying Mace will last longer because he has better stamina than Dooku. becuase he wnt tire that easily. Hey thats fine. I can agree with that. You see im reasonable if I feel im getting a good argument back backed by proof. But I still see Mace struggling against someone SO Powerful, who just gets stronger as the fight progresses.

smile

Look. Anakin won because he physically overpowered the Count with his massive Djem So strikes, and proceeded to tire him out- if I remember correctly, Dooku felt 'trapped in his skull'. Now, all that doesn't mean that Anakin is not the more versatile and effective swordsmen, but it simply won't WORK against Mace, who possesses incredible stamina and physical power- Vaapad also relies on kinetic, powerful energy.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well im not so sure on how much he was holding back. I mean the Novel doenst state Yoda as holding back. and I dnt think the word "Capture" on its own says much, considering Mace went to Capture/Arrest Palpatine.. so do you think Mace was holding back in their fight as well??? and I think using Ataru as an excuse for him not cutting Dooku anywhere but his Head is a bit Lame.

'Capture' = 'not kill'. Now, y'see, Ataru isn't known for its percision; Yoda would simply become a 'whirlwind of destruction'. He's never accomplished any incredible feat of percision with his sabers, and Ataru isn't known for gracefully disarming its opponents.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If he was really outclassing him SO BADLY then Jumping all around him he should have been able to cut him somewhere.
And you say Yoda did so "Effortlessly", but clearly it wasnt Effortlessly otherwise the Jedi Master wuldnt have been "Exhausted" after the fight, and wuldnt have felt like he doesnt need to Saber sparring practice for a Good while now.
But I admit Yoda did outclass him. Of course he did. Dooku wuld never be able to beat him. But he did have the "Speed" and "Power" to compete otherwise he wuldnt have been able to keep parrying the attacks, and he would have been "Captured" for sure.

Let me ask you- how does that, exactly, differ from Dooku's fight with Anakin? Dooku BLOCKED all of Anakin's attacks until Anakin feinted, grabbed him, and cut off his hands, which is a show of power or anything; Dooku kept up with Anakin's strikes, albeit with extreme difficulty. Same with Yoda; he blocked most of Yoda's attacks with great difficult. His bladework become messy, uncontrolled, and you know how much Dooku hates that, being obsessed with grace and fluency.

The differences? Anakin was using the dark side, was less controlled than Yoda, and his duel lasted a lot longer than Yoda's duel. Yoda, on the other hand, was holding back, was more controlled, and fought a far shorter duel with Dooku- and Dooku ran away from Yoda, and actually prepared the missle in orbit, KNOWING that Yoda would own him, even in Vjun. And Dooku is arrogant.

For all we know, if Yoda's duel lasted longer, he could've overpowered Dooku, like Anakin did. Dooku certainly thought so.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah because your being quite selsctive in your quotes. You missed out the part "Dooku held strong though, his red blade parrying brilliantly." Now how do you think Dooku could have done that if he didnt have the speed to compete?? I know Yoda is faster, but you cant deny the Counts speed and precision there.
It seems Dooku tended to do worse in the fight when he got frustrated that he could never gain any kind of advantage.
Also You also missed out the part where the fight ended with the 2 of them locked in a saber lock, on a "contest of strength" where Yoda started to overpower him "just a little", and congratulated the Count on giving him a good fight.. and finally uv missed the end where it states Yoda was Exhausted.

Yeah. You're ignoring the fact that Anakin didn't outclass Dooku in speed, like Yoda did. You're also ignoring other facts I've listed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you still seem to ignore what the narrators tell us.. which is in Bladework(which included speed) that Dooku was easily Maces equal. Also they fought in Obsession, and they both kept their gorund fighting completley even.. and Mace WAS trying to KILL him.. now you tell me If Mace was so much faster why he didnt just strike him down there and then???

but you have convinced me that Mace would eventually win the saber fight against dooku simply because Dooku would tire first. so I guess our debates arnt entirely pointless smile

In obsession? Their duel was brief. And, really, speed doesn't mean you can simply blitz someone and one-shot them, unless you're Sidious and you're owning Agen Kolar. And Mace's actual displays of speed are considerably greater, too, from decimating an army of durasteel-built, rapidly firing droids with his bare hands to his displays in Shatterpoint.

And yeah, I guess our debates aren't pointless, eh? big grin

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Nope. Not sure I intend to, either. How is it?

It was decent. I cant believe not even Star Wars fans have turned up to watch it. No wonder its not made any money! Lol.. thats and the fact that there was little or no hype and marketing for it. Neway you watched the CW mini series right?? so u shuld defo watch the animated movie then.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

'Of his generation'. Kindly remember that.

Perhaps of ANY Generation!!! please dnt forget that. the "perhaps" wuld not be there if his speed was clearly no match for Mace or Yodas.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Mace's speed depictions, from Shatterpoint to the CW series > Anakin's..

Urm please your not getting his speed from CW series. did you fail to notice Asajj Ventress was depicted being just as fast in that series???

The animated movie would be a much better source for cannon feats. and like I said theyve shown Anakin to be very fast and agile. If they ever show animated Mace to be clearly faster than Anakin or Dooku, then ill buy it.

Again Dark Rendezvous depicts Mace and Dooku as equals in the speed and lethalness of their bladework! So theres no reason to suggest that Dooku culdnt reach the same sorts of speeds that Mace was depicted to reach in shatterpoint.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Look. Anakin won because he physically overpowered the Count with his massive Djem So strikes, and proceeded to tire him out- if I remember correctly, Dooku felt 'trapped in his skull'. Now, all that doesn't mean that Anakin is not the more versatile and effective swordsmen, but it simply won't WORK against Mace, who possesses incredible stamina and physical power- Vaapad also relies on kinetic, powerful energy. ..

Anakin won because of his limitless force reserves. because he gets stronger as the fight progresses, and because he "decided to win" and he stopped holding back for the first time.
He could potentially have all those advantages against Mace, but ill give you that Mace would last longer due to his physical strength and stamina. but i still think hed lose but after a really long fight. simply because Anakin will just keep getting stronger, and theres only so long Mace wuld be able to keep up.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah. You're ignoring the fact that Anakin didn't outclass Dooku in speed, like Yoda did. You're also ignoring other facts I've listed...

doesnt really matter, because I think both Dooku and Anakin are incredibly fast, and Anakins Force Reserves could help him to keep up with Yoda's speed better than Dooku could.
As far as the Mace thing goes, again it doesnt matter because we know Sidious(whose just as fast as Yoda) was much Faster than Mace, so for that reason I dnt see him really being any faster than Dooku or Yoda.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
In obsession? Their duel was brief.

well it lasted a few scenes which is long enough in a comic book. but the point is they were exactly even! both holding their ground perfectly. unlike the Yoda vs. Dooku and the Anakin vs. Dooku. Add that to Dark Rendezvous stating them to be equal in sabers, and the conclusion is obvious.

Though like iv alreadly admitted, Mace would take the sabers in the end due to Dooku getting tired and relying on the Force to keep replenishing him.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It was decent. I cant believe not even Star Wars fans have turned up to watch it. No wonder its not made any money! Lol.. thats and the fact that there was little or no hype and marketing for it. Neway you watched the CW mini series right?? so u shuld defo watch the animated movie then.

Now, I don't know about that. I'm not exactly a fan of the 'kiddy Star Wars', which is why I find RotJ and TPM to be the low points of the saga; sure, they both have good parts (Emperor/Vader/Luke scenes in RotJ, for example), but all in all, they're overwritten by childishness. Ironically, my problem with TPM is kiddy Anakin a LOT more than Jar Jar; I find him to be somewhat amusing. Kiddy Anakin sucks ass.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Perhaps of ANY Generation!!! please dnt forget that. the "perhaps" wuld not be there if his speed was clearly no match for Mace or Yodas.

Or, 'perhaps' would not have been there if he was faster than Yoda and Mace. It works both ways.

By the way, I don't think any of them would just blitz him, but he can't last a very long duel against someone who outclasses him in speed, agility, and overall offensive capability.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm please your not getting his speed from CW series. did you fail to notice Asajj Ventress was depicted being just as fast in that series???

Not only the visual depictions of that speed, but the actual feat- easily dodging fast blaster bolts and pummeling droids with his bare hands, which moved faster than anything Asajj was shown to do.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The animated movie would be a much better source for cannon feats. and like I said theyve shown Anakin to be very fast and agile. If they ever show animated Mace to be clearly faster than Anakin or Dooku, then ill buy it.

Sure. The Clone Wars cartoon, despite showing all characters and 'exagerrated' or whatever, depicts Yoda and Mace to clearly move faster than Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again Dark Rendezvous depicts Mace and Dooku as equals in the speed and lethalness of their bladework! So theres no reason to suggest that Dooku culdnt reach the same sorts of speeds that Mace was depicted to reach in shatterpoint.

You know speed isn't the only thing in lightsaber dueling, right? Technical skill, percision, and general grace apply as well, and in that scenario, Dooku > Mace.

Mace is faster and stronger. Deal with it; his displays of speed are considerably superior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin won because of his limitless force reserves. because he gets stronger as the fight progresses, and because he "decided to win" and he stopped holding back for the first time.
He could potentially have all those advantages against Mace, but ill give you that Mace would last longer due to his physical strength and stamina. but i still think hed lose but after a really long fight. simply because Anakin will just keep getting stronger, and theres only so long Mace wuld be able to keep up.

Shatterpoint? Vaapad? Anakin isn't known for his uber defenses. Even disregarding his speed, Mace could find a flaw in Anakin's bladework and proceed to pwn him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
doesnt really matter, because I think both Dooku and Anakin are incredibly fast, and Anakins Force Reserves could help him to keep up with Yoda's speed better than Dooku could.

Anakin NEVER actually DISPLAYING blinding speed; so, unless you quote me an actual quote lauding his speed levels, I won't concede the point. Be logical, please. If in the millions of times Anakin was described fighting he was never shown to move at speeds on Yoda, Sidious, or Mace's levels, we have to assume we can't; he's fast, very fast, and he may be able to keep up with Mace, but honestly, his advantages lie elsewhere.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As far as the Mace thing goes, again it doesnt matter because we know Sidious(whose just as fast as Yoda) was much Faster than Mace, so for that reason I dnt see him really being any faster than Dooku or Yoda.

Right. We can ignore Mace's speeds in Shatterpoint and the CW cartoon, right? Riiight?

No, we can't; he simply shows himself to be insanely fast, but I'll concede the Mace won't be able to win virtue of pure speed. His Vaapad, Shatterpoint, and physical ability spell that.

And if you think Sidious and Yoda are 'much faster' than Mace- and you don't think Anakin is necessarily faster than Mace- I'm sure you can see that they are faster than Anakin too, right? Sidious outclassed Mace in speed and was rapidly overpowering until Mace was fully 'immersed in Vaapad'; Anakin won't be able to do that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well it lasted a few scenes which is long enough in a comic book. but the point is they were exactly even! both holding their ground perfectly. unlike the Yoda vs. Dooku and the Anakin vs. Dooku. Add that to Dark Rendezvous stating them to be equal in sabers, and the conclusion is obvious.

1. A>B>C fails. Stop constantly using it.

2. It's plausible Mace's powers increased between Shatterpoint and RotS.

Really, even you conceded that Mace would beat Dooku in a fight.

DARTH POWER

Well I actually loved TPM and ROTJ.. and I even thought little Anakin was cute.. and a bit of a smooth talker for such a young one: "Are u an Angel?" Lol! and I thought Jar Jar was just chilling. I didnt mind him too much either. but still if youve seen the CW mini series and even use that as proof in your debates, than I seriously suggest you watch the Animated movie, which is more "realistic" in Star Wars terms at leats, and just a much better cartoon.

Neway back to our Never Conceeding debate...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Or, 'perhaps' would not have been there if he was faster than Yoda and Mace. It works both ways.

yes but it shows that he must at least be close to them in speed, otherwise the "perhaps" would not be there. so it supports my argument a lot more.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Not only the visual depictions of that speed, but the actual feat- easily dodging fast blaster bolts and pummeling droids with his bare hands, which moved faster than anything Asajj was shown to do. .

Not only did Asajj show the same blinding speed, but when she did that she took down a whole arena of deadly killers and monters.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Sure. The Clone Wars cartoon, despite showing all characters and 'exagerrated' or whatever, depicts Yoda and Mace to clearly move faster than Anakin..

yeah it also showed Ventress moving fatser than we saw Aankin move. So your point is moot.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Shatterpoint? Vaapad? Anakin isn't known for his uber defenses. Even disregarding his speed, Mace could find a flaw in Anakin's bladework and proceed to pwn him.

yes... a possibility. another one is that even Mace has difficulty dealing with an opponent who gets stronger as the fight proceeds, and Anankin overpowers him with his far superior raw power and force reserves.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin NEVER actually DISPLAYING blinding speed; so, unless you quote me an actual quote lauding his speed levels, I won't concede the point..

So "Fastest jedi of his generation, Perhaps ANY generation," is not a quote for you?? Also I just realised, Anakin at the very least has faster reflexes than Mace, because thats whats always helped him to be an exceptional pilot. Better than any of the other jedis, including Mace and Yoda.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Be logical, please. If in the millions of times Anakin was described fighting he was never shown to move at speeds on Yoda, Sidious, or Mace's levels, we have to assume we can't;

Well I think in the animated movie he was shown to be as fast and agile as Yoda and Sidious were in the actual movies. A brillaint scene is when he leaps from bike to bike destroying the droids and then gets on one of those bikes himself and shows off his piloting skills. This scene showed how amazing a jedi Anakin has become.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Right. We can ignore Mace's speeds in Shatterpoint and the CW cartoon, right? Riiight?

well im not sure about shatterpoint. not read the whole thing. could you give me the page no., so I can check it myself please?
but yeah as for CW cartoon, yeah we should ignore his speed depictions, because he was shown to be no faster than Ventress as iv already mentioned.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And if you think Sidious and Yoda are 'much faster' than Mace- and you don't think Anakin is necessarily faster than Mace- I'm sure you can see that they are faster than Anakin too, right??

Yoda and Sidious probably are faster, with Anakin maybe being the next fastest, and definetely able to compete with them in Sabers at least. Might even have a shot of winning a Sabers Only contest.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

It's plausible Mace's powers increased between Shatterpoint and RotS.

Really, even you conceded that Mace would beat Dooku in a fight.

Dark Rendezvous took place only 6 months before ROTS. Obsessions was even closer to ROTS than that. So I doubt Mace inproved much in that time.

And No I didnt Conceed Mace would definetely beat Dooku in a fight. I conceeded that he would EVENTUALLY win the sabers. But while the sabers lasts(and it will last a while) Dooku and Mace will be quite evenly matched.

Of course in an all out fight Dooku always has a chance to take Windu with his superior Force powers whether Windu is Faster or Not. Of course thats just my opinion but based on the kind of people Dooku has dominated with his Superior Force powers even in the middle of a Saber fight.. Sora Bulq, ObiWan Kenobi, Vos, Tholme.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I actually loved TPM and ROTJ.. and I even thought little Anakin was cute.. and a bit of a smooth talker for such a young one: "Are u an Angel?" Lol! and I thought Jar Jar was just chilling. I didnt mind him too much either. but still if youve seen the CW mini series and even use that as proof in your debates, than I seriously suggest you watch the Animated movie, which is more "realistic" in Star Wars terms at leats, and just a much better cartoon.]

Really? You must be the only person in existence who thinks the the CW movies is better than the cartoons. I gotta admit, though, I'm not -too- big a fan of them. Random action gets tiresome after a while.

But little Anakin was cute? He was f*cking TERRIBLE. I can't stand the little piece of crap.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Neway back to our Never Conceeding debate...

Yes. You could make an exception, though. big grin

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes but it shows that he must at least be close to them in speed, otherwise the "perhaps" would not be there. so it supports my argument a lot more.

No, it doesn't it works BOTH ways. 'Perhaps' could be because certain people are faster than him- Mace and Yoda are the only two swordsmen in the Order who are lauded for incredible displays of speeds. And, in Mace's case, strength.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not only did Asajj show the same blinding speed, but when she did that she took down a whole arena of deadly killers and monters.

Can you substantiate the power of those killers? And besides, use your logic. Visual displays can only take you so far; Mace fought a deadlier army of super fast-firing droids, and he tore them apart. He also punched them at superhuman speeds. Asajj didn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah it also showed Ventress moving fatser than we saw Aankin move. So your point is moot.

Don't diss Ventress. She's a damn fast swords... err... woman.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes... a possibility. another one is that even Mace has difficulty dealing with an opponent who gets stronger as the fight proceeds, and Anankin overpowers him with his far superior raw power and force reserves.

Right, that's also a possibility; however, I find that HIGHLY unlikely. Let's analyze how his 'raw power and force reserves' came into play against the Count, shall we? Dooku's Makashi does not GENERATE the force to meet against the power of Djem So strikes, especially strikes such as Anakin's. The force of these strikes caused Dooku's swordplay to be more difficult to execute- it also caused him to tire rapidly and be unable to stand before Anakin, who gained power as the fight progressed.

Mace is faster, more agile, and A LOT physically stronger than Dooku- he has stamina, too boot. His Vaapad generates as much physical force as Djem So, and his individual strength feats rival, if not surpass, Anakin's own. The ever-increasing power granted to him by the 'unleashed' raw power and the dark side energy will be granted to Mace, as well. It's only a matter of time before a flaw in Anakin's swordplay is seen and Anakin is taken down.

You see?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So "Fastest jedi of his generation, Perhaps ANY generation," is not a quote for you?? Also I just realised, Anakin at the very least has faster reflexes than Mace, because thats whats always helped him to be an exceptional pilot. Better than any of the other jedis, including Mace and Yoda.

That's not only reflexes; it's foresight, attunement to the force, and natural talent. Most of his piloting skill is natural. That doesn't mean his reflexes are superior to Mace.

I've already dealt with this quote.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I think in the animated movie he was shown to be as fast and agile as Yoda and Sidious were in the actual movies. A brillaint scene is when he leaps from bike to bike destroying the droids and then gets on one of those bikes himself and shows off his piloting skills. This scene showed how amazing a jedi Anakin has become.

Nice. Though, to be fair, it would be FAR easier to animated fast moves than to actually display them onscreen. The fact that Yoda and Sidious' speed still match Anakin's is a testament for their ability; I'll guarantee that they'll be both individually faster if depicted in that cartoon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well im not sure about shatterpoint. not read the whole thing. could you give me the page no., so I can check it myself please?
but yeah as for CW cartoon, yeah we should ignore his speed depictions, because he was shown to be no faster than Ventress as iv already mentioned.

As already mentioned, visual evidence =/= all.

And the quote goes something like "If Vastor was moving fast, Mace might as well have been invisible.", I think. Something that implies that he's moving considerably faster than Vastor is- and Kar is a BEAST.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda and Sidious probably are faster, with Anakin maybe being the next fastest, and definetely able to compete with them in Sabers at least. Might even have a shot of winning a Sabers Only contest.

'Compete'? Yeah. 'Defeat'? No.

Speed isn't everything, but Anakin is certainly slower than both of them. Probably slower than Mace, too, but that's up for debate.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dark Rendezvous took place only 6 months before ROTS. Obsessions was even closer to ROTS than that. So I doubt Mace inproved much in that time.

Makes sense. Still, the duel was far shorter than Anakin vs. Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And No I didnt Conceed Mace would definetely beat Dooku in a fight. I conceeded that he would EVENTUALLY win the sabers. But while the sabers lasts(and it will last a while) Dooku and Mace will be quite evenly matched.

I see.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course in an all out fight Dooku always has a chance to take Windu with his superior Force powers whether Windu is Faster or Not. Of course thats just my opinion but based on the kind of people Dooku has dominated with his Superior Force powers even in the middle of a Saber fight.. Sora Bulq, ObiWan Kenobi, Vos, Tholme.

All of them inferior to Mace. I disagree, but Dooku is arguably the better pure force user.

DARTH POWER

Master Crimzon I think iv seen the deal with the speed with Mace and Dooku at least.

Mace might be able to generally move and leap around faster using Vapaad. But when it comes to sword duelling Dookus superior duelling skill using minimal effort and precise parries e.t.c gives him that extra quickness in duelling.

In the AOTC novel when Dooku fights Obi it says Dooku attacks with his blade and then retracts it so quick that most Obi1's parries would just hit the air.

So this would satisfy your eveidence about how much faster Mace is accrding to Shatterpoint, but also satisfy Dark Rendezvous claim that in pure Bladework/Duelling Mace and Dooku are equals. N.B it made that claim in reference to the quickness and lethalness of Dookus sword fighting.

As for the Force Fight. I know those guys Dooku dominated are not Mace's equal, but they are all powerful opponents. and Dooku seriously dominated them with mere flick of the hand.

and Mace has fought Sora Bulq and Ventress but did not defeat either as easily as Dooku did, mainly due to Dookus swift and powerful Force Moves. So Dooku is definetely significantly superior in the Force.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Really? You must be the only person in existence who thinks the the CW movies is better than the cartoons.

Really? Strange. I thought it was quite good, for a cartoon. Action and visuals were really good, and story was decent too.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Mace fought a deadlier army of super fast-firing droids, and he tore them apart.

haha! shame he didnt do that in AOTC. he culd have saved many jedis from dying. it was clearly a kids special exaggerated feat. If he did defeat that army in continuity, then it would have been in a very different fashion to how the cartoon showed it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
That's not only reflexes; it's foresight, attunement to the force, and natural talent. Most of his piloting skill is natural. That doesn't mean his reflexes are superior to Mace.

NO NO... his natural talent is mostly down to his Force powers. TPM made that clear. thats why he was the only human who could pod race, at the age of 10! so he will almost definetely have the fastest reflexes. a jedi gets their super reflexes from their attunement to the force and foresight.

"He can see things before they happen. Its why he appears to have such fast reflexes." Qui-Gon Jinn in TPM.

Tangible God

You don't have to make an acronym out of etcetera.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Master Crimzon I think iv seen the deal with the speed with Mace and Dooku at least.

Mace might be able to generally move and leap around faster using Vapaad. But when it comes to sword duelling Dookus superior duelling skill using minimal effort and precise parries e.t.c gives him that extra quickness in duelling.

It does. But Dooku's feats do not rival Mace's "multiple visible blades" bladework in speed; it's plausible his strikes are of greater percision but quickness, but Mace is able to strike far more times per, say, a second than Dooku is capable of.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the AOTC novel when Dooku fights Obi it says Dooku attacks with his blade and then retracts it so quick that most Obi1's parries would just hit the air.

Dooku's strikes are quick, but it's evident that he simply can't strike as many times and with as speed as Mace is capable of. Don't even think of comparing AotC Obi-Wan to Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So this would satisfy your eveidence about how much faster Mace is accrding to Shatterpoint, but also satisfy Dark Rendezvous claim that in pure Bladework/Duelling Mace and Dooku are equals. N.B it made that claim in reference to the quickness and lethalness of Dookus sword fighting.

PURE BLADEWORK? Technical skill? Dooku is most decidedly superior. Quickness and lethality? No, no, no. Mace possesses the deadliest and most dangerous combat style within the mythos; his feats of speed, from movement to the amount of times he is capable of striking, is superior to Dooku. Dooku is better in elegance and percision, but that's it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for the Force Fight. I know those guys Dooku dominated are not Mace's equal, but they are all powerful opponents. and Dooku seriously dominated them with mere flick of the hand.

and Mace has fought Sora Bulq and Ventress but did not defeat either as easily as Dooku did, mainly due to Dookus swift and powerful Force Moves. So Dooku is definetely significantly superior in the Force.

Dooku never the sheer power of Mace's abilities. He didn't crush durasteel, he didn't lift massive objects; all of his feats are about refinement and small-scale abilities. He's certainly more masterful than Mace, but I think that Mace's feats- in sheer power necessary- trump Dooku's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really? Strange. I thought it was quite good, for a cartoon. Action and visuals were really good, and story was decent too.

Didn't watch it yet, but as expected, 'hardcore fans' hate it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
haha! shame he didnt do that in AOTC. he culd have saved many jedis from dying. it was clearly a kids special exaggerated feat. If he did defeat that army in continuity, then it would have been in a very different fashion to how the cartoon showed it.

He beat that army in continuity. There's nothing to suggest that he didn't, and it was retconned, nor did Lucas say it wasn't canon. Incosistency aside, it's evident that Mace's feats are legit.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
NO NO... his natural talent is mostly down to his Force powers. TPM made that clear. thats why he was the only human who could pod race, at the age of 10! so he will almost definetely have the fastest reflexes. a jedi gets their super reflexes from their attunement to the force and foresight.

"He can see things before they happen. Its why he appears to have such fast reflexes." Qui-Gon Jinn in TPM.

Makes sense, I guess.

Jbill311

I'll post the rest later, I've gotta go to x-country.

Master Crimzon

Gotcha. Thanks.

Darth Angel

Actually I can question that. I mean, Mace actually mastered all lightsaber styles before he mastered juyo and created vaadpad. Now I think that takes quite some technical skill.

Master Crimzon

It does. But Dooku has mastered the most technically demanding form to its absolute apex, over the course of a lifetime far beyond Mace's own. He's easily the more technically accomplished duelist.

Faunus

People need to show me where it is stated that mastery of Juyo/Vaapad requires mastery of "all" the forms of lightsaber combat, and not "multiple" as the canon source I'm familiar with puts it.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It does. But Dooku's feats do not rival Mace's "multiple visible blades" bladework in speed; it's plausible his strikes are of greater percision but quickness, but Mace is able to strike far more times per, say, a second than Dooku is capable of.

more strikes per second? well maybe not since Dookus strikes will be close parries.. add that to Dooku being incredibly fast anyway...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku's strikes are quick, but it's evident that he simply can't strike as many times and with as speed as Mace is capable of. Don't even think of comparing AotC Obi-Wan to Mace.

thats like me saying dnt even think of comparing the droids Mace defeated to Dooku! Lol Look we know Dookus very fast, fast enough to deal with Greivous's 20 strikes per second, who also has blinding speed by the way.

Add that to the fact that we know Mace is nowhere near as fast as Sidious, and the fact that Dooku has speed to compete with Yoda(though granted he does get overpowered quite badly)... and then add Dookus style of close quick precision parries... add all that and do you really think theres NO WAY Dooku can match Mace in Speed even in a Saber duel where Dooku is at his fastest??

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku never the sheer power of Mace's abilities. He didn't crush durasteel, he didn't lift massive objects; all of his feats are about refinement and small-scale abilities. He's certainly more masterful than Mace, but I think that Mace's feats- in sheer power necessary- trump Dooku's.

The smashing Durasteel is due to Maces shatterpoint ability. and what massive objects does Mace lift?? whilst weve seen Dooku rip apart stone roofs in seconds, push massive pillars, and throw huge platforms onto his opponenets. theres no evidence anywhere that Mace's TK is superior to Dookus.
However there is plenty of evidence that Dooku can Force fight other Force powered opponents much better than Mace can. Ventress and Bulq come straight to mind, as both Mace and Dooku have fought them.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
He beat that army in continuity. There's nothing to suggest that he didn't, and it was retconned, nor did Lucas say it wasn't canon. Incosistency aside, it's evident that Mace's feats are legit.

Do u not accept that that was a blatantly exagerated feat.. why didnt Mace just do that in AOTC?? also Yoda sends massive space ships back into the sky in that cartoon, whilst in the film he has trouble catching a large pillar. so seriously stop using TK feats from the CW cartoon series as evidence.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
more strikes per second? well maybe not since Dookus strikes will be close parries.. add that to Dooku being incredibly fast anyway...

Again: I'm not suggesting that Dooku can't compete with Mace's speed. Mace isn't gonna blitz him, nor will he blitz Anakin- but he's simply faster. All evidence points towards it; there is rarely a piece of Mace fighting without describing and emphasizing his speed. He's simply faster than Dooku. Stronger, too.

Now, I'm not saying that Dooku doesn't have his advantages, but physically, Mace kicks the crap out of him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
thats like me saying dnt even think of comparing the droids Mace defeated to Dooku! Lol Look we know Dookus very fast, fast enough to deal with Greivous's 20 strikes per second, who also has blinding speed by the way.

There is no proof Grievous has made it up to 20 strikes per second in his regular 'sparring' matches with Dooku; I find it doubtful that he would go all-out against someone he respects and doesn't want to kill.

And Mace forced Grievous on the defensive. He can more than compete with Grievous.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Add that to the fact that we know Mace is nowhere near as fast as Sidious, and the fact that Dooku has speed to compete with Yoda(though granted he does get overpowered quite badly)... and then add Dookus style of close quick precision parries... add all that and do you really think theres NO WAY Dooku can match Mace in Speed even in a Saber duel where Dooku is at his fastest??

He'll be able to match him, but Mace is simply superior. Get OVER it already. His displays of speed >>> Dooku's, he's in far better physical shape, and he also relies on his speed- which is more substantiated upon than Dooku's- to a far greater extent.

And really, it's not like Mace didn't compete with Sidious, either. The difference is, Mace just saw a bunch of his friends butchered before his eyes. Oh, and Sidious, unlike Yoda, was going for the kill- a vast advantage. Still, Mace survived long enough to tap into Vaapad's energies and match Sidious. Mace surviving some time against a bloodlusted Sidious > Dooku surviving some time against a Yoda holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The smashing Durasteel is due to Maces shatterpoint ability. and what massive objects does Mace lift?? whilst weve seen Dooku rip apart stone roofs in seconds, push massive pillars, and throw huge platforms onto his opponenets. theres no evidence anywhere that Mace's TK is superior to Dookus.
However there is plenty of evidence that Dooku can Force fight other Force powered opponents much better than Mace can. Ventress and Bulq come straight to mind, as both Mace and Dooku have fought them.

Prove that it's due to his Shatterpoint ability and not pure power. He simply crushed Grievous- there's nothing to indicate it was due to some sort of special use of the force.

In power, Mace's feats are simply superior to Dooku's. In finesse, Dooku's are better, but I think that Mace's actual power is likely superior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Do u not accept that that was a blatantly exagerated feat.. why didnt Mace just do that in AOTC?? also Yoda sends massive space ships back into the sky in that cartoon, whilst in the film he has trouble catching a large pillar. so seriously stop using TK feats from the CW cartoon series as evidence.

Why can't you accept that nothing refutes the canonicity of the Cartoon? We're forced to accept it, considering GL had a heavy hand in it and stated that it was his vision for Jedi Knights.

Prove that the feats aren't canon, or drop the point.

Lt. Valerian

Yeah, the feats are canon, alright... But it doesn't change the fact that they're completely absurd and ridiculously idiotic, in comparrison to what we see in AotC.

Master Crimzon

Still usable in arguments.

But yeah, stupid inconsistency = fail.

Lt. Valerian

I know that's how GL pictured the Jedi, but c'mon. If you're going to allow such an overpowered feat, at least make it non-canon.

Jbill311

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Add that to the fact that we know Mace is nowhere near as fast as Sidious, and the fact that Dooku has speed to compete with Yoda(though granted he does get overpowered quite badly)... and then add Dookus style of close quick precision parries... add all that and do you really think theres NO WAY Dooku can match Mace in Speed even in a Saber duel where Dooku is at his fastest??
Once submerged in vapaad he is in fact as fast as Sidious, taking his speed and matching it. Mace is comparable in speed to Sidious, who is greater in speed to Yoda, who is greater in speed than Dooku. This is A>B>C logic, but because we are looking at a specific attribute it is valid in this case.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

The smashing Durasteel is due to Maces shatterpoint ability. and what massive objects does Mace lift?? whilst weve seen Dooku rip apart stone roofs in seconds, push massive pillars, and throw huge platforms onto his opponenets. theres no evidence anywhere that Mace's TK is superior to Dookus.
However there is plenty of evidence that Dooku can Force fight other Force powered opponents much better than Mace can. Ventress and Bulq come straight to mind, as both Mace and Dooku have fought them.

Mace effectively force grips a landslide: several tons of rock in order to save children trapped in a lava flow. He deffinately has more raw force strength shown.
Mace's vapaad gives him a massive boost- it allowed him to fight with relative parity with Sidious. His lightsaber style is also a philosophy that helps him best utilize his abilities, and turns his opponents power into his own.

Gideon

The feats of the Jedi Masters and Knights as performed during the Clone Wars television series are mentioned specifically even in the New Essential Chronology. George Lucas stated that his ideal Jedi would demonstrate such potency; it's evident that the only reason that we don't see Jedi playing ping pong with planets or moving faster than the eye can see is because a.) contrary to popular belief, Lucas's budget is limited and b.) you can't witness a duel between two people moving faster than the eye can see.

Lt. Valerian

Indeed, but I do not believe it was necessary at all to make Windu completely annihilate an entire army of battle droids all by himself.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Indeed, but I do not believe it was necessary at all to make Windu completely annihilate an entire army of battle droids all by himself.

I agree, but if someone wanted to downplay that particular feat they could mention how in some scenes that he is surrounded in. Only the droids in front of him shoot while the ones behind him with the best chance to kill him just stand there.

Gideon

Kazdan Paratus is stated in TFU's in-game databank to be capable of wiping out legions of Confederacy droids singlehandedly.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Still usable in arguments.

But yeah, stupid inconsistency = fail.

how can you use stupid inconsistencies in your arguments. by using them your thereby admitting that your argument is full of stupid inconsistencies.

we cant compare CW cartoons "ideal vision of jedi knights" to the movies and novels version. therefore you can not compare Mace's feat from the CW cartoon to Anakin and Dookus feats from the movies and the novels.

Originally posted by Gideon
The feats of the Jedi Masters and Knights as performed during the Clone Wars television series are mentioned specifically even in the New Essential Chronology. George Lucas stated that his ideal Jedi would demonstrate such potency; it's evident that the only reason that we don't see Jedi playing ping pong with planets or moving faster than the eye can see is because a.) contrary to popular belief, Lucas's budget is limited and b.) you can't witness a duel between two people moving faster than the eye can see.

Yes but when we see 200 jedi including Mace getting battered by army droid army, and then we see Mace (without his lightsaber half the time) beating down a droid army single handedly, then we of course can not compare feats.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

There is no proof Grievous has made it up to 20 strikes per second in his regular 'sparring' matches with Dooku; I find it doubtful that he would go all-out against someone he respects and doesn't want to kill.
And Mace forced Grievous on the defensive. He can more than compete with Grievous.

Mace only saber fought Greivous when he was wielding 2 sabers. Dooku on the other hand sparred with Greivous constantly to train him to be the perfect jedi killer. so of course he fought him at his full potential. saying he didnt is complete speculation. If anything it was Dooku holding back!
and we saw in the CW cartoons Dooku EASILY handling Greivous with 2 sabers, therfore its only logical to assume that when Dooku was "Hard Pressed" to handle GG at times it was when GG was fighting with 4 sabers at full potential.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Mace surviving some time against a bloodlusted Sidious > Dooku surviving some time against a Yoda holding back.

Dnt forget until submerged in Vapaad, Mace was being forced back the entire time, so he basically was just surviving, whilst even though Yoda was holding back(to an extent) Dooku was giving good enough competition, good enough to exhaust Yoda and leave Yoda thinking he doesnt need to practice sparring for a Long time.

So no I dnt believe Mace(before submerging into Vapaad) did better against Sidious than Dooku did against Yoda.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Prove that it's due to his Shatterpoint ability and not pure power. He simply crushed Grievous- there's nothing to indicate it was due to some sort of special use of the force.

One of the first pages of Shatterpoint states Mace as being able to smash a crystal which is harder than Durasteel using his Shatterpoint ability. So im afraid your the one wholl need to provide the proof that he can do it without Shatterpoint and just using he Force and Physical Strength.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace only saber fought Greivous when he was wielding 2 sabers. Dooku on the other hand sparred with Greivous constantly to train him to be the perfect jedi killer. so of course he fought him at his full potential. saying he didnt is complete speculation. If anything it was Dooku holding back!
and we saw in the CW cartoons Dooku EASILY handling Greivous with 2 sabers, therfore its only logical to assume that when Dooku was "Hard Pressed" to handle GG at times it was when GG was fighting with 4 sabers at full potential.

NOT THE EVIL, NON-CANONICAL CARTOON!

Jesus effin' Christ. There exists no textual evidence that proves that Dooku sparred with Grievous while the latter went all-out; when Grievous was bloodlusted against Mace, Mace attacked him and forced him on the defensive. If we go by the CW Cartoon, Dooku didn't manage to launch a single solid saber attack within the entirety of the duel.

And nothing refutes the Clone War's canonicity. Sorry, your observations, as intelligent as they are, don't overwrite canon. Don't you think I'd be happy to declare all post-RotJ Sith non-canonical because Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force? Yeah, SW is full of inconsistencies. Deal with it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dnt forget until submerged in Vapaad, Mace was being forced back the entire time, so he basically was just surviving, whilst even though Yoda was holding back(to an extent) Dooku was giving good enough competition, good enough to exhaust Yoda and leave Yoda thinking he doesnt need to practice sparring for a Long time.

So no I dnt believe Mace(before submerging into Vapaad) did better against Sidious than Dooku did against Yoda.

He survived nicely, just like Dooku- the fact that basically makes his feat superior is the fact that Palpatine is a newly-unleashed Sith Lord, who happens to be bloodlusted, didn't overpower Mace fast enough. Yoda? He's a calm, reserved Jedi Master who was fighting his beloved apprentice and was holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
One of the first pages of Shatterpoint states Mace as being able to smash a crystal which is harder than Durasteel using his Shatterpoint ability. So im afraid your the one wholl need to provide the proof that he can do it without Shatterpoint and just using he Force and Physical Strength.

No, I don't. You made the claim, you prove it. Nothing within either the text or the actual visual evidence suggests that it had anything to do with his Shatterpoint ability. If it's not mentioned, we have to assume that he accomplished this feat without the Shatterpoint ability.

Mizukage Yoda

^ROFL that "Non-Canonical cartoon" holds more canon in it than any novel or comic, T-Canon is right below the movies in canon. Just saying.

Autokrat

You know, it is a very good thing Lucas' buget is limited, otherwise we would have the awesome and mighty Star Wars Z! That would make Goku himself cringe.

...

Oh noes! he has a mid level over 20000!

truejedi

You know what's ridiculous? treating Mace's Vapaad like its a special ability. Saying "he can't block sidious's strokes until he had sank into vapaad" is the same as saying "Yoda was unable to block dooku's attacks until he had raised his saber"
Vapaad was his lightsaber FORM. It was how he fought with his LIGHTSABER. We have NO SOURCE that says its takes any certain time to sink into Vapaad. In fact, considered vapaad is a lightsaber FORM, the very first stroke of a the blade puts Mace "into vapaad"

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

If we go by the CW Cartoon, Dooku didn't manage to launch a single solid saber attack within the entirety of the duel.

Oh please.. he easily handled GG's barrage easily, while lecturing him throughout the fight, and easily disarming him. There was no contest there.

and of course GG went all out in his sparring sessions. the CW cartoon made that perfectly clear. hed try his best to defeat Dooku in the saber fight, but Dooku handled it easy. i mean he wasnt teaching kids boxing sparring u know.. he was teaching GG to KILL Jedis!! and still admitted GG culdnt beat the best of the Jedis, whilst Dooku himself believed hed have a shot at any Jedi.

I mean does anyone here actually believe GG would even have a chacne against Dooku in a Saber fight???

If you want to beleive that GG always went easy on Dooku, then you believe that, but its COMPLETE speculation on your part.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

No, I don't. You made the claim, you prove it. Nothing within either the text or the actual visual evidence suggests that it had anything to do with his Shatterpoint ability. If it's not mentioned, we have to assume that he accomplished this feat without the Shatterpoint ability.

"Imagine a Corusca gem: a mineral whose interlocking crystalline structure makes it HARDER THAN DURASTEEL. You can strile one with a five-kilo hammer and do no more than dent the hammer's face. Yet the same crystalline structure that gives the Corusca strength also give it shatterpoints: spots where a precise application of carefully measured force-NO MORE THAN A GENTLE TAP- WILL BREAK IT INTO PIECES. But to find these shatterpoints, to use them to shape the Corusca gem into beauty and utility, requires years of study, an intimate understanding of the crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand in the perfect combination of strength and precision to produce the desired cut.

UNLESS YOU HAVE A TALENT LIKE MINE.
I CAN SEE SHATTERPOINTS..............
...........

Put Simply: WHEN I LOOK AT YOU THROUGH THE FORCE, I CAN SEE WHERE YOU BREAK"

So when Mace looked at Greivous he could see where he breaks. and Force crushed him there.

when he sees the droids hes fighting, again he can see where they break, and all it takes is a gentle tap to break them.

If thats not proof that Mace punches through Durasteel using his Shatterpoint ability(something that weve never even witnessed Yoda or Sidious doing) then I dnt know what is!

Otherwise if you just want to believe that Mace does that by his own Raw Force Power, and therfore Mace has more Raw Strength in the Force than weve seen ever shown by even Yoda or Sidious, then fine you believe that. but AGAIN its complete speculation on you part.

truejedi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh please.. he easily handled GG's barrage easily, while lecturing him throughout the fight, and easily disarming him. There was no contest there.

and of course GG went all out in his sparring sessions. the CW cartoon made that perfectly clear. hed try his best to defeat Dooku in the saber fight, but Dooku handled it easy. i mean he wasnt teaching kids boxing sparring u know.. he was teaching GG to KILL Jedis!! and still admitted GG culdnt beat the best of the Jedis, whilst Dooku himself believed hed have a shot at any Jedi.

I mean does anyone here actually believe GG would even have a chacne against Dooku in a Saber fight???

If you want to beleive that GG always went easy on Dooku, then you believe that, but its COMPLETE speculation on your part.

"Imagine a Corusca gem: a mineral whose interlocking crystalline structure makes it HARDER THAN DURASTEEL. You can strile one with a five-kilo hammer and do no more than dent the hammer's face. Yet the same crystalline structure that gives the Corusca strength also give it shatterpoints: spots where a precise application of carefully measured force-NO MORE THAN A GENTLE TAP- WILL BREAK IT INTO PIECES. But to find these shatterpoints, to use them to shape the Corusca gem into beauty and utility, requires years of study, an intimate understanding of the crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand in the perfect combination of strength and precision to produce the desired cut.

UNLESS YOU HAVE A TALENT LIKE MINE.
I CAN SEE SHATTERPOINTS..............
...........

Put Simply: WHEN I LOOK AT YOU THROUGH THE FORCE, I CAN SEE WHERE YOU BREAK"

So when Mace looked at Greivous he could see where he breaks. and Force crushed him there.

when he sees the droids hes fighting, again he can see where they break, and all it takes is a gentle tap to break them.

If thats not proof that Mace punches through Durasteel using his Shatterpoint ability(something that weve never even witnessed Yoda or Sidious doing) then I dnt know what is!

Otherwise if you just want to believe that Mace does that by his own Raw Force Power, and therfore Mace has more Raw Strength in the Force than weve seen ever shown by even Yoda or Sidious, then fine you believe that. but AGAIN its complete speculation on you part.

if he did use shatterpoint... what difference does it make?he still did it, and he could do it again... and to argue that Mace used shatterpoint on grievous is the complete opposite of your post: He didn't tap grievous he crushed him. You don't crush something in shatterpoint. You tap something, that's made clear from many sources.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by truejedi
You know what's ridiculous? treating Mace's Vapaad like its a special ability. Saying "he can't block sidious's strokes until he had sank into vapaad" is the same as saying "Yoda was unable to block dooku's attacks until he had raised his saber"
Vapaad was his lightsaber FORM. It was how he fought with his LIGHTSABER. We have NO SOURCE that says its takes any certain time to sink into Vapaad. In fact, considered vapaad is a lightsaber FORM, the very first stroke of a the blade puts Mace "into vapaad"

We mean Vapaad's "Superconducting loop" which made Mace as fast as Sidious. but only temporarily while he was fighting Sidious. Hes not that fast when fighting anyone else. He wuldnt be that fast while fighitng Anakin or Dooku. So thats why we differentiate between how Mace was fighting Sidious before and after Vapaad formed a "Super-Conducting loop" between them making Mace temporarily as fast as Sidious.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by truejedi
if he did use shatterpoint... what difference does it make?he still did it, and he could do it again... and to argue that Mace used shatterpoint on grievous is the complete opposite of your post: He didn't tap grievous he crushed him. You don't crush something in shatterpoint. You tap something, that's made clear from many sources.

"Put simply: when I look at you through the Force I can see where you break"

Once he sees where you break it doesnt matter if he hits him with his hand or threw the Force.

im not downplaying the feat. Shatterpoint is an amazing ability. im saying you cant use that as proof that Mace is stronger than all the other jedis, (including Yoda and Sidious) because they cant do that.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

And nothing refutes the Clone War's canonicity. Sorry, your observations, as intelligent as they are, don't overwrite canon. Don't you think I'd be happy to declare all post-RotJ Sith non-canonical because Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force? Yeah, SW is full of inconsistencies. Deal with it.

The movies override every othe cannon source.

Dooku takes Obi1 out with a kick in the ROTS novel, but with a Force move in ROTS movie.

So which one overrides? the movie of course.

Look its fine if the events of CW cartoons are cannon. but you they were brought to us in very kiddish exaggerated cartoons suitable for cartoon netwrok.

So you can not COMPARE feats of one person in the cartoon to feats of someone ealse Outside the cartoon!! for GODS SAKES thats just common sense!!!

since we dnt see Dooku fight droids in the cartoon we simply can not compare. Otherwise CW cartoon Mace is 1000 times stronger that AOTC Mace!!! so mace is harder than mace!! you see you cant compare!!

Do you understand that simple logic yet???

Jbill311

Originally posted by truejedi
You know what's ridiculous? treating Mace's Vapaad like its a special ability. Saying "he can't block sidious's strokes until he had sank into vapaad" is the same as saying "Yoda was unable to block dooku's attacks until he had raised his saber"
Vapaad was his lightsaber FORM. It was how he fought with his LIGHTSABER. We have NO SOURCE that says its takes any certain time to sink into Vapaad. In fact, considered vapaad is a lightsaber FORM, the very first stroke of a the blade puts Mace "into vapaad"

Vapaad is a state of mind. It is a technique for Mace to use the darkness in his heart as a weapon of the light. Effectively, he can use the dark-side boost against non-dark Force users (and droids) without the danger of falling himself. Also, against dark side users (read: Palpatine) he can copy some of their speed or force attacks. and turn them against the originator. This is the superconducting loop phenomenon.

truejedi

Originally posted by Jbill311
Vapaad is a state of mind. It is a technique for Mace to use the darkness in his heart as a weapon of the light. Effectively, he can use the dark-side boost against non-dark Force users (and droids) without the danger of falling himself. Also, against dark side users (read: Palpatine) he can copy some of their speed or force attacks. and turn them against the originator. This is the superconducting loop phenomenon.

i don't deny any of that: however, since it is still explicitly expressed as his lightsaber form, we shouldn't assume that it takes him any more time to fully use Vapaad then it takes yoda to use ataro. Anything else is just speculation.

Jbill311

As far as the blade work, you are correct. When the mental component comes into play, the situation changes. It takes him time to focus, and time to 'strip layers of his control' and let loose. The RotS novelization describes him being 'fully submerged in vapaad' only after quite some time of dueling.

truejedi

perhaps, but we shouldn't believe that he can't compete with any opponent any less fully at the beginning of a duel as he can in the middle of the duel because of this. Just because he is letting loose, does that actually help his combat abilities? probably not: consider, before he was "cutting loose" he was fighting sidious one on one, and neither could defeat the other. After he was letting loose, he was fighting sidious one on one and neither could defeat the other. It was only when he used his shatterpoint ability that he was able to gain an edge in fighting.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh please.. he easily handled GG's barrage easily, while lecturing him throughout the fight, and easily disarming him. There was no contest there.

OMGW TEH CONTRADICTION!11!!!

LoE maintains that Dooku was often 'hard-pressed' to defeat Grievous in combat. While you're right that there appeared to be no significant effort on Dooku's part, it's very much plausible that Dooku, in fact, had more difficulty than appeared to be.

For example, when he fought Anakin in Attack of the Clones, there appeared to be no effort on his part- however, several sources maintain that he was surprised by Anakin's power and ferocity. Really, the fact that Dooku doesn't appear to be exerting himself doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't, especially when we consider what LoE says.

and of course GG went all out in his sparring sessions. the CW cartoon made that perfectly clear. hed try his best to defeat Dooku in the saber fight, but Dooku handled it easy. i mean he wasnt teaching kids boxing sparring u know.. he was teaching GG to KILL Jedis!! and still admitted GG culdnt beat the best of the Jedis, whilst Dooku himself believed hed have a shot at any Jedi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I mean does anyone here actually believe GG would even have a chacne against Dooku in a Saber fight???

I would make a case for Grievous having a chance in a saber battle against Dooku if there wasn't textual evidence to suggest that Grievous never beat Dooku in a sparring match. As it stands, no, I don't think Grievous could beat Dooku in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you want to beleive that GG always went easy on Dooku, then you believe that, but its COMPLETE speculation on your part.

Correct. However, we know that Grievous respected and admired Count Dooku, and wouldn't have any reason to go all "20 strikes per second" on Dooku's ass. He doesn't want to kill him, so I think it's more than plausible that he never fought to his peak against Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
"Imagine a Corusca gem: a mineral whose interlocking crystalline structure makes it HARDER THAN DURASTEEL. You can strile one with a five-kilo hammer and do no more than dent the hammer's face. Yet the same crystalline structure that gives the Corusca strength also give it shatterpoints: spots where a precise application of carefully measured force-NO MORE THAN A GENTLE TAP- WILL BREAK IT INTO PIECES. But to find these shatterpoints, to use them to shape the Corusca gem into beauty and utility, requires years of study, an intimate understanding of the crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand in the perfect combination of strength and precision to produce the desired cut.

UNLESS YOU HAVE A TALENT LIKE MINE.
I CAN SEE SHATTERPOINTS..............
...........

Put Simply: WHEN I LOOK AT YOU THROUGH THE FORCE, I CAN SEE WHERE YOU BREAK"

So when Mace looked at Greivous he could see where he breaks. and Force crushed him there.

when he sees the droids hes fighting, again he can see where they break, and all it takes is a gentle tap to break them.

If thats not proof that Mace punches through Durasteel using his Shatterpoint ability(something that weve never even witnessed Yoda or Sidious doing) then I dnt know what is!

Otherwise if you just want to believe that Mace does that by his own Raw Force Power, and therfore Mace has more Raw Strength in the Force than weve seen ever shown by even Yoda or Sidious, then fine you believe that. but AGAIN its complete speculation on you part.

Err... no, both Yoda and Sidious have raw power feats that trump Mace's. All the way from Yoda manipulating those ships in the CW Cartoon, to Mace admitting his inferiority in Shatterpoint, to Sidious overwhelming and overpowering him with lightning, to Sidious wielding those Senate Pods with immense speed and percision. With one hand.

Okay. Let's say some guy learned a killing technique. Then, let's say he fought another guy and killed him. Now, nothing in either the visualization of that fight or the description of it suggests the killer used that certain technique he had, although he possesses mastery of it- are we forced to assume that he used that technique to kill him?

The answer is no. If Mace used his Shatterpoint ability, there would have been some sort of indication of it in either the visual evidence or the text- there ISN'T, so drop the point already. You're the one speculating- simply because Mace has the Shatterpoint ability doesn't mean that he uses it in every single one of his feats. If he used it, there would be something to suggest that he did.

As for the CW Cartoon point, you are, once again, holding the belief that you > GL. SW is full of stupid inconsistencies- Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force, but instead Sidious comes back by DE and the Sith reemerge in the form of Lumiya and Caedus. So, can I just declare NJO and LotF non-canon? No, I can't. You can't do that to the cartoon, either, because no one has ever retconned it or implied that it wasn't canon.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
LoE maintains that Dooku was often 'hard-pressed' to defeat Grievous in combat. While you're right that there appeared to be no significant effort on Dooku's part, it's very much plausible that Dooku, in fact, had more difficulty than appeared to be.

Speculation, and no proof. GG was using 2 sabers in that match. so when Dooku said he was "AT TIMES" hard pressed to fend him off we can safely assume that was GG going all out.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
For example, when he fought Anakin in Attack of the Clones, there appeared to be no effort on his part- however, several sources maintain that he was surprised by Anakin's power and ferocity.

Yeah i dnt remember Dooku lecturing Anakin and constantly disarming him and tossing him around in their duel. it was quite obviuos Dooku was fully concentrating in that fight.

And it doesnt matter if GG respected Dooku. If he was clearly no match for Dooku then of course he could go all out on him. If he culdnt go all out on him, then hed need to find a new sparring partner. Clearly youve never sparred yourself. If you had ud know you never hold back on your teacher, no matter how much you like him. because you knowyour not gna beat him, and if you do... Then Great! Youll be filled with confidence!

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
As it stands, no, I don't think Grievous could beat Dooku in a lightsaber duel..

Then you admit Dooku is fast enough to handle GG's 20 strikes per second. Therfore case closed, and pointless argument.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Err... no, both Yoda and Sidious have raw power feats that trump Mace's. All the way from Yoda manipulating those ships in the CW Cartoon,..
yes too bad we didnt get to see Dooku take on ships and multiple opponents in the CW cartoon, because that would have finished your argument there and then.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
to Mace admitting his inferiority in Shatterpoint,,..
nice to see you accept that quote, but have trouble accepting the narrator of Dark Rendezvous clearly stating Dookus blade work being equal to Mace's in Speed and Lethalness??? Or the quote on Anakin possibly being the fastest Jedi there is??? your just picking and chosing the quotes you want to believe.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
to Sidious overwhelming and overpowering him with lightning,,,..
and Dooku EASILY overwhelmed Ventress and Sora Bulq using the Force, something Mace COULD NOT DO when fighting them, otherwise neither one would have escaped him!
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
to Sidious wielding those Senate Pods with immense speed and percision. With one hand.,,,..

Thats nothing compared to Mace's CW cartoon feats. so by your argument, Mace has better Force feats than Sidious upto (before Dark Empire).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The answer is no. If Mace used his Shatterpoint ability, there would have been some sort of indication of it in either the visual evidence or the text- there ISN'T, so drop the point already. You're the one speculating- simply because Mace has the Shatterpoint ability doesn't mean that he uses it in every single one of his feats. If he used it, there would be something to suggest that he did..,,,..

Im not sure.. so ill let you have this one.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
As for the CW Cartoon point, you are, once again, holding the belief that you > GL........

You can't do that to the cartoon, either, because no one has ever retconned it or implied that it wasn't canon.

I never once sed CW was not cannon. I sed the powers were Greatly Amped up in that. therfore it is not fair to compare one characters feats from CW cartoons to another characters feats from Outside of CW cartoons, otherwise as I have already pointed out Mace's Force feats seem Much Much greater than ROTS Sidious's!!!!!

Or are you denying those feats to be AMPED Up.... and im not contradicting Lucas, as Lucas himself said that was his "Ideal Vision of Jeids" therfore they were Amped up in the cartoon to fit his "Ideal Vision". and therfore in most other parts of the SWU including the movies his "ideal vision" is not portrayed, therefore simple logic dictates you can not compare feats from within CW cartoons to feats Outside them! theres no denying that.
its not rocket science you know, but your just clinging on to him because thats the only place youll see Mace's Force feats greater than Dookus, because we only saw Dooku sparring GG and Ventress in those cartoons!!

And by the way theyre not that amped up in the new animation.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Speculation, and no proof. GG was using 2 sabers in that match. so when Dooku said he was "AT TIMES" hard pressed to fend him off we can safely assume that was GG going all out.

No, at 'times' could suggest that Grievous occasionally performed better. It's plausible, you know.

And besides, by LoE, I'm fairly certain that Dooku made a quote about his dislike of Grievous using four lightsabers. I'm sure Dooku would encourage him to fight with the more... well... 'graceful' style of using two lightsabers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah i dnt remember Dooku lecturing Anakin and constantly disarming him and tossing him around in their duel. it was quite obviuos Dooku was fully concentrating in that fight.

No, it wasn't. It's all very much open to speculation, as we hadn't seen Dooku sweat and shout during the fight, like he did against Yoda.

And besides, you're not thinking of saying AotC Anakin is even close to Grievous, are you?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And it doesnt matter if GG respected Dooku. If he was clearly no match for Dooku then of course he could go all out on him. If he culdnt go all out on him, then hed need to find a new sparring partner. Clearly youve never sparred yourself. If you had ud know you never hold back on your teacher, no matter how much you like him. because you knowyour not gna beat him, and if you do... Then Great! Youll be filled with confidence!

RIGHT, I've never sparred before. Don't insult me. You don't go absolutely all-out on someone you don't want to hurt, even if it's subconsciously- I really, really have my doubts Grievous went all '20 strikes per second' on Dooku's ass during the sparring matches.

Do I have proof? No, I don't have proof, but neither do you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then you admit Dooku is fast enough to handle GG's 20 strikes per second. Therfore case closed, and pointless argument.

I'm sure Dooku would beat Grievous in a fight, but not only due to his saber combat abilities. Force counts, too. Even in the sparring match, he utilized the force to stop Grievous' assault- you don't do that if you're absolutely confident that your skill > your opponent's skill, considering Dooku preferred usage of pure saber combat in comparison to force abilities.

And besides, I'm sure Grievous is faster than Dooku- he can certainly produce more attacks. However, the same applies for Obi-Wan- it is directly said in the novelization that Grievous could move his arms faster than Obi-Wan could, but yet Obi-Wan beat him. Conclusion? Speed doesn't necessarily equal victory. But it helps.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes too bad we didnt get to see Dooku take on ships and multiple opponents in the CW cartoon, because that would have finished your argument there and then.

Good for me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
nice to see you accept that quote, but have trouble accepting the narrator of Dark Rendezvous clearly stating Dookus blade work being equal to Mace's in Speed and Lethalness??? Or the quote on Anakin possibly being the fastest Jedi there is??? your just picking and chosing the quotes you want to believe.

Dooku may have been Mace's equal, but, for god's sake, he is never said to be as fast as Mace. Or as strong as Mace. In those last two categories, Mace curbstomps Dooku. Dooku has other advantages- like percision, accuracy, grace, and dueling experience/technical skill. That quote doesn't refute my argument- you don't have to be as fast as someone in order to beat them.

And 'possibly' is 'possibly'. I accept that quote, but hey, we have two Jedi who have him beaten in speed displays- possibly implies doubt, and those two Jedi can cause that doubt.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and Dooku EASILY overwhelmed Ventress and Sora Bulq using the Force, something Mace COULD NOT DO when fighting them, otherwise neither one would have escaped him!

I am not arguing that Mace > Dooku in the force. Just that Mace > Dokou in the sheer power of his force feats. Dooku would certainly win in a force battle, because of his finesse and experience- Mace's feats, however, are simply more powerful.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Thats nothing compared to Mace's CW cartoon feats. so by your argument, Mace has better Force feats than Sidious upto (before Dark Empire).

Incorrect- Mace's 'force feats' mainly involve owning a ton of droids with a force wave. He never displayed the power to lift so many heavy objects, and wield them with such accuracy and speed.

However, it's very much true that Sidious' TK isn't his best force power. His lightning is- and that lightning was more than a match for Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I never once sed CW was not cannon. I sed the powers were Greatly Amped up in that. therfore it is not fair to compare one characters feats from CW cartoons to another characters feats from Outside of CW cartoons, otherwise as I have already pointed out Mace's Force feats seem Much Much greater than ROTS Sidious's!!!!!

Or are you denying those feats to be AMPED Up.... and im not contradicting Lucas, as Lucas himself said that was his "Ideal Vision of Jeids" therfore they were Amped up in the cartoon to fit his "Ideal Vision". and therfore in most other parts of the SWU including the movies his "ideal vision" is not portrayed, therefore simple logic dictates you can not compare feats from within CW cartoons to feats Outside them! theres no denying that.
its not rocket science you know, but your just clinging on to him because thats the only place youll see Mace's Force feats greater than Dookus, because we only saw Dooku sparring GG and Ventress in those cartoons!!

Yeah, they're 'amped up', but are still useable in debates, simply because the Cartoon- and, in turn, anything that happens in it- is canonical. Nothing retconned that, nor did anybody say the feats displayed there aren't canon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And by the way theyre not that amped up in the new animation.

Good, but I'm not sure the movie is indication for everything in the series.

DARTH POWER

By the way Anakin has some pretty amazing Force feats in the CW cartoons as well, but theyre usually missed because his scenes you jus see for a second, while Mace had a whole episode dedicated to his Force feats.

In the first episode at the beginning they show a scene where Padawan Anakin is surrounded by battle driods, but drpos them all by simply lifting his hands.

Also in Volume 2 after being Knighted they show Anakin throwing a massive object at a huge driod to smash them, as well as freeing his comrades from some kind of wierd bubbles they were trapped him, by just using the Force.

So I personally feel Lightside Anakin as being a match for Mace in Sabers and the Force. Certainly a very powerful opponent not to be underestimated unless you want to end up like Dooku.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

RIGHT, I've never sparred before. Don't insult me. You don't go absolutely all-out on someone you don't want to hurt, even if it's subconsciously- I really, really have my doubts Grievous went all '20 strikes per second' on Dooku's ass during the sparring matches.

Do I have proof? No, I don't have proof, but neither do you.

When u have 1 on 1 sessions with an instructor thats always the best sparring training. and its always your instructor holding back and controlling the fight, which is EXACTLY what they showed with Dooku vs. Greivous. So im afraid your the one wholl have to prove GG never went pretty much all out in his sparring sessions because he Lol"Luved Dooku 2 much"!!!

Even with 2 sabers GG's speed is still blindingly fast.. and Dooku can handle with it. Theres nothing anywhere to say he cant.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku may have been Mace's equal, but, for god's sake, he is never said to be as fast as Mace. Or as strong as Mace. In those last two categories, Mace curbstomps Dooku. Dooku has other advantages- like percision, accuracy, grace, and dueling experience/technical skill. That quote doesn't refute my argument- you don't have to be as fast as someone in order to beat them.
And 'possibly' is 'possibly'. I accept that quote, but hey, we have two Jedi who have him beaten in speed displays- possibly implies doubt, and those two Jedi can cause that doubt..

Iv just reread the ROTS novels version of the fight between Anakin, Dooku and Obiwan, and im afraid all 3 of them displayed "Blinding Speed", especially Anakin and Dooku. You obviously completely blocked that out of your mind when you read the novel. Theres now absolutley no evidence whatsoever that Mace is faster than Dooku or Anakin. Theres no point in just sticking to that made up theory of yours just because you prefer Mace.
and btw even in strength, Dooku has displayed tremendous Force enhanced strength(kicking the chosen one half way accross the room right onto his butt)..so until his Force Reserves tire theres no reason to suggest Mace will even be srtonger than Dooku.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I am not arguing that Mace > Dooku in the force. Just that Mace > Dokou in the sheer power of his force feats.

Yeah jus becuase we saw more of him in the CW cartoons. whether u like it or not ALL the Jedis were more powerful there. Deal with it. Otherwise Maces Force feats are more powerful than Sidious's as well. because yes Taking down an entire driod army single handedly is more impressive than throwin senate pods! Lol!

Master Crimzon

Weren't we done with this?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When u have 1 on 1 sessions with an instructor thats always the best sparring training. and its always your instructor holding back and controlling the fight, which is EXACTLY what they showed with Dooku vs. Greivous. So im afraid your the one wholl have to prove GG never went pretty much all out in his sparring sessions because he Lol"Luved Dooku 2 much"!!!

When you fight against someone you have no intention of killing, you, at least subconsciously, hold back. That's the sad truth. Of course it applies to Dooku, as well, but these sparring matches don't necessarily completely reflect a real-world confrontation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even with 2 sabers GG's speed is still blindingly fast.. and Dooku can handle with it. Theres nothing anywhere to say he cant.

OF COURSE he can. I couldn't possibly argue agains that- but the truth is that Grievous would be a very devastating foe, even against Dooku, when he rocks his four lightsabers to his fullest extent.

Only the fact that Grievous apparently never beat Dooku in a sparring match will prevent me from making an argument as to why I believe Grievous can contend with- and possibly defeat- the Count in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ivejust reread the ROTS novels version of the fight between Anakin, Dooku and Obiwan, and im afraid all 3 of them displayed "Blinding Speed", especially Anakin and Dooku. You obviously completely blocked that out of your mind when you read the novel. Theres now absolutley no evidence whatsoever that Mace is faster than Dooku or Anakin. Theres no point in just sticking to that made up theory of yours just because you prefer Mace.

I PREFER MACE? Don't bullshit me, and don't make any vague 'lol you're a fanboy!' insult attempt. I don't even like Mace that much. I like Dooku a lot more than him, for example, but I simply don't believe that Dooku can match him in physical attributes.

And provide quotes, and then substantiate as to why they rival Mace's 'invisble' speed and capability of appearing to wield multiple blades at once.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and btw even in strength, Dooku has displayed tremendous Force enhanced strength(kicking the chosen one half way accross the room right onto his butt)..so until his Force Reserves tire theres no reason to suggest Mace will even be srtonger than Dooku.

Ripping durasteel apart with bare hands > force kicking someone.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah jus becuase we saw more of him in the CW cartoons. whether u like it or not ALL the Jedis were more powerful there. Deal with it. Otherwise Maces Force feats are more powerful than Sidious's as well. because yes Taking down an entire driod army single handedly is more impressive than throwin senate pods! Lol!

Yeah, and Sidious overpowered Mace in a force contest. He also launched world-class force techniques and rituals- and while his TK may not seem to be 'the uberz!11!!', he was able to wield three heavy objects with more speed and percision than Mace ever displayed.

Gideon

I'm a purple belt in Tae Kwon Do, and for the record, I never attacked my instructor to the best of my ability. Not that it would have made a difference, since he's a fifth degree black belt and was trained since adolescence, but I know for a fact that most of us in our class never tried to attack him to the best of our ability.

Master Crimzon

Damn straight. During sparring matches, you simply don't go all-out against someone you don't want to cause serious harm to.

Gideon

There were a lot of moments, though, when I did against my fellow classmates. Mostly because a lot of them were pricks. There was this fat one, Julia. Just a monstrosity. She sucked at sparring, but admittedly, she was amazing on technique. Knew all the stances, vocabulary, correct poses. When we'd spar, there were moments when I intentionally kicked the shit out of her ribs. And I enjoyed every minute of it.

Master Crimzon

That's downright evil, brotha. no expression

Most fat chicks in my karate class happened to back down before they were 'seriously' into it. I remember, one time, I fought this guy who kind of pissed me off, mainly 'cuz he was an arrogant douche. So I beat him 'till he dropped on the floor. I lost points for that, though. I'm lucky, 'cause most people in my class are cool, though. There's only one guy I never beat, and he's damn tough.

I'm kind of crappy in technique. I'm much more of a 'practical' martial artist than an actual 'artist', lol.

Mizukage Yoda

EDIT

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Weren't we done with this?

we were until i found all these quotes about Kenobi, Dookus and Anakins Blinding speed, which kind of makes your whole apparent "proof" that Mace is faster just speculation. you dnt have to look any further than their fight in the ROTS novel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
When you fight against someone you have no intention of killing, you, at least subconsciously, hold back. That's the sad truth. Of course it applies to Dooku, as well, but these sparring matches don't necessarily completely reflect a real-world confrontation.

yeah except amateur sparring is a bit different to training someone to be a killer! natrually in that situation your instructor has to be harsher, and sparring much more intense. and like youve already pointed out, Dooku would have subconciously held back just as much as GG, as he wuldnt have trained him all that time just to accidentally kill him.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I PREFER MACE? Don't bullshit me, and don't make any vague 'lol you're a fanboy!' insult attempt. I don't even like Mace that much. I like Dooku a lot more than him, for example, but I simply don't believe that Dooku can match him in physical attributes......And provide quotes, and then substantiate as to why they rival Mace's 'invisble' speed and capability of appearing to wield multiple blades at once.

calm down. no ones insulting u. dnt be so insecure man! ill give u all the quotes now, its just that the fact u dnt have to look further than the ROTS novel for the proof shows u just jumped to that conclusion that Mace is clearly faster than Dooku or Anakin. and by the way you Never once gave an Actual quote of Maces speed, so u were very Vague in your proof. Neway....

ROTS novel pg.72 Kenobis speed " 'Very well, then,' the jedi said, and shot up straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed hed vanished."

moving so fast that it looked like he vanished = invisible speed.

ROTS novelpg.75
Kenobis speed: "he finally registered the source of that BLINDING defence velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago.."

yes thats right Kenobi with BLINDING speed, so Mace clearly isnt the only one.

ROTS novel pg.76
Anakins speed: "That blue blade was everywhere, falshing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze.."

this is easily equal to Mace appearing to wield mutiple blades at once as Anakins blade appeared to be everywhere.

ROTS novel pg.77
Dookus speed: "Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side stamp that folded skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a BLINDINGLY FAST wheel kick that brought his heel agaisnt Kenobis chin..."

and there we go.. Dooku is also blindingly fast!

ROTS novel pg.79
Anakin and Dooku's speed: "They stood toe- to- toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see.

Both Dooku AND Anakin display Invisible/Blinding speed, with their blades appearing to be everywhere.

So there u have it! Iv given more proof theyre than uv given in 6 pages on Maces speed. and they all(including Obi1) display it in their balde work and in their general physical speed.

So clearly having blinding type speed is normal when u get to the top-tier jedis.

So in future when U want to make up specualtion like "Mace is the only one whose ever displayed blinding speed" try doing your research first, especially if your going to try and impose that view on other people.

Seriously iv learned you cant believe anything you here from people on these boards. You have to go check out the proofs yourself. and you Master Crimzon have finally confirmed how unreliable speculation is all you get form these boards. Thanks for that smile

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah except amateur sparring is a bit different to training someone to be a killer! natrually in that situation your instructor has to be harsher, and sparring much more intense. and like youve already pointed out, Dooku would have subconciously held back just as much as GG, as he wuldnt have trained him all that time just to accidentally kill him.

In order to increase somebody's technical skill to its utmost extent, you cannot fight as you would in a real-life situation- the intensity of 'real', and not simulated combat, can prevent gaining a better mastery and understanding of the blade.

All I'm saying is that Dooku's and Grievous' sparring matches do not entirely reflect a real-life situation. I'm sure Dooku would beat him, though- if not via sabers, than via the force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
calm down. no ones insulting u.

Don't make unsupported claims like 'You like Mace more!!!' without knowing my opinions, please. I'm not really that offended.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
dnt be so insecure man!/

O-kay.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novel pg.72 Kenobis speed " 'Very well, then,' the jedi said, and shot up straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed hed vanished."

Highly impressive, but appearing invisible for a split second < raping an army of droids unarmed and appearing 'invisible' next to the absolutely beastly Kar Vastor.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novelpg.75
Kenobis speed: "he finally registered the source of that BLINDING defence velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago.."

Yes. Kenobi's bladework is certainly fast, but how is that any different from Mace's? He is capable of moving his blades so quickly there are appear to be multiple ones. Which is very, very impressive.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes thats right Kenobi with BLINDING speed, so Mace clearly isnt the only one.

Did I even suggest as much? Yoda and Sidious are most decidedly faster than him during the PT. Other than them, though, I'm not so certain.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novel pg.76
Anakins speed: "That blue blade was everywhere, falshing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze.."

this is easily equal to Mace appearing to wield mutiple blades at once as Anakins blade appeared to be everywhere.

Nice quote. But the fact is, Anakin had never displayed the movement speed- 'invisible' and sufficient to destroy an army of droids while appearing as a blur and dodging incredibly fast blaster-fire- or the other varieties of Mace's speed, such as registering six blows on Kar Vastor before he could blink.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novel pg.77
Dookus speed: "Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side stamp that folded skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a BLINDINGLY FAST wheel kick that brought his heel agaisnt Kenobis chin..."

Great. Still does not compare to the feats I've listed.

and there we go.. Dooku is also blindingly fast!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novel pg.79
Anakin and Dooku's speed: "They stood toe- to- toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see.

Both Dooku AND Anakin display Invisible/Blinding speed, with their blades appearing to be everywhere.

There's hardly rare, you know- there is rarely a duel in which the blades aren't noted for appearing faster than the eye could view.

In addition, while that's enough for me to concede that they can contend with Mace in terms of speed, I'd still say that they are slower. From massacring that droid army, to being far faster than Kar Vastor (appearing truly 'invisible', and the six blows before Vastor could blink), to moving his blade with enough speed for it to appear like multiple blades, I'd say that he is faster than them.

In addition, he was capable of forcing Grievous on the defensive- something that Dooku, apparently, did not do during their sparring matches, even though Grievous wielded two lightsabers in both confrontations.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So there u have it! Iv given more proof theyre than uv given in 6 pages on Maces speed. and they all(including Obi1) display it in their balde work and in their general physical speed.

Uhh? Somehow, some impressive descriptions of speed > moving 'invisible' compared to Vastor, decimating a droid army using pure speeds and hand to hand combat, landing six blows on Vastor before he could blink, and moving a blade with enough speed to make it appear like it was multiple blades? Sorry. Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-Wan never displayed these sorts of speed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So clearly having blinding type speed is normal when u get to the top-tier jedis.

Clearly. Mace is very upper-tier in speed, though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So in future when U want to make up specualtion like "Mace is the only one whose ever displayed blinding speed" try doing your research first, especially if your going to try and impose that view on other people.

Did I ever actually say that? He's displayed speed in excess of the three above mentioned combatants- the only one who may truly be able to rival him in that department is Anakin. He's far from the fastest force user in the mythos, though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Seriously iv learned you cant believe anything you here from people on these boards. You have to go check out the proofs yourself. and you Master Crimzon have finally confirmed how unreliable speculation is all you get form these boards. Thanks for that smile

Umm, no problem? That was a bit vague. Was that some sort of insult, or something?