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Pyron and Nosgoth with all of there abilities.
vs
Dark Titan and Jedah with all of there abilities.
Which team takes it?

Nosgoth? Is that not the timeguy from LOK?

What is up with all these Pyron threads popping up all of a sudden?

I do not know. It is the resurrection of classical debatecharacters all over again Kain, Pyron, Jedah, Sephiroth. Good old gang.


I think most agreed that our Dark Titan in question was more than competent enough to deal with Pyron. Which is my thought exactly in the matter. Jedah I know of, but for the same reason that I do not think Kain can not beat Pyron by attacking the soul, I do not think Jedah can win by going for Pyrons soul.

He is of course not a necessary combatant since the planet will probably be destroyed very early in the fight. So it comes down to a fight between the two (Or three depending on who Nosgoth is) that can maneuver and fight in space. While Jedah is an impressive guy, he is not quite the outer space combatant. I do not think he can fly in any way, so he would just be floating there. Assuming of course that the destruction of the planet did not kill him.


So this fight would be :Pyron and Nosgoth Vs. Dark Titan: or :Pyron Vs. Dark Titan:

If Nosgoth is a time manipulator, he probably wins. If not, I would be so bold as to say Dark Titan wins.

Nosogoth is basically the entire LOK universe, including Kain, Sargeras is the only interesting being here, I think Pyron and the combined might of Nosgoth and Jedah could destroy Sargeras. In pure power I think Pyron>Old God easily

Sargeras held a closing portal open with nothing but physical force, did he not? That has to count for something.

I dont know, depends on the overall weight of the portal but he is by no means anywhere near the size of Pyron, Pyrons size alone is over a Gas giant size or so jaxx would say, his physical power would overpower Sargerus easily

problem with Sarg he has very few feats that describe his speciifc abilities, sure he can incinerate the land around him but it doesnt say much on his endurance or else.

Considering he made Archimonde nigh indestructable with a snap of his finger, I am pretty sure he has gone all out with his own endurance Did not mean that Sargeras was superior Pyron in strength. Merely that he had shown impressive strength.

What claims it as nigh indestructable? what has Archimonde proven himself against?

Either way the Dark Titan has still not actually shown any real endurance, I dont remember how the story is currently, its changed a few times, does Argewyn still destroy his avatar? I remember him being damaged, obviously he is outright annhialted in his end, so he is destructable.#

But as I say, its difficult to determine his power, its higher than many but we dont know specfics like his overall survivability, resistances to elemental powers or to soul devouring or to enrergy attacks in general

Against Malorne...

A Avatar that was meant to be destroyed.

I wouldn't try and mess with Sargeras Soul when the Natherizim adept in soul control and manipulation was unable to effect him. As for the powers of elements only a very strong level of Nature has shown having a effect on Archimonde then think about Sargeras against which Archimonde is nothing...

But it was actually shown to be indestructable? or stated to be such?


Either way that doesnt make it any less an embaressment, also who says it was "meant" to be destroye,d it may be part of Sargerus' plan but an Avatar is a physical form of a being, thus it could simply be Sargerus himself anyway even if it is an Avatar.


I dont know about nothing, they claim the Eredar are only limited by their minds does it not? and imo Kiljaeden has certainly shown himself beyond Sargerus in intellect.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But it was actually shown to be indestructable? or stated to be such?


Either way that doesnt make it any less an embaressment, also who says it was "meant" to be destroye,d it may be part of Sargerus' plan but an Avatar is a physical form of a being, thus it could simply be Sargerus himself anyway even if it is an Avatar.


I dont know about nothing, they claim the Eredar are only limited by their minds does it not? and imo Kiljaeden has certainly shown himself beyond Sargerus in intellect.

- In matter of facts, it was. Archimonde was by narrators said to have impervious skin. The only ever recorded damage inflicted on him is nature damage, and at all times a massive extent.

- Sargeras took a dive. He was playing Aegwynn the whole time. She never had a chance. She had lost even before the fight begun, but had he not put up a fight she would have grown suspicious. He had his avatar to engage Aegwynn with the sole purpose of losing in order to get to Azeroth from the inside. It really was meant to be destroyed.

- No. The gift of Sargeras was limited only by the minds of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden. The Eredar developed a sort of spell however that was supposively limitless, depending on the caster.

Originally posted by Becci
- In matter of facts, it was. Archimonde was by narrators said to have impervious skin. The only ever recorded damage inflicted on him is nature damage, and at all times a massive extent.

- Sargeras took a dive. He was playing Aegwynn the whole time. She never had a chance. She had lost even before the fight begun, but had he not put up a fight she would have grown suspicious. He had his avatar to engage Aegwynn with the sole purpose of losing in order to get to Azeroth from the inside. It really was meant to be destroyed.

- No. The gift of Sargeras was limited only by the minds of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden. The Eredar developed a sort of spell however that was supposively limitless.

It was supposively limetless. It might not be limitless.

Originally posted by Wil7
It was supposively limetless. It might not be limitless.

Not sure where you want to get with that post.

The Man'Ari Eredar has a lot of magicians. Even if it is not limitless and only very powerful, it is impressive enough since the Eredar have very high number of casters. As a sample of a paramount spell (The one supposively limitless) is the attack Archimonde developed which is powerful enough to kill someone by merely pointing your finger at him. Not injure. Not weaken. Kill.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
I do not know. It is the resurrection of classical debatecharacters all over again Kain, Pyron, Jedah, Sephiroth. Good old gang.


I think most agreed that our Dark Titan in question was more than competent enough to deal with Pyron. Which is my thought exactly in the matter. Jedah I know of, but for the same reason that I do not think Kain can not beat Pyron by attacking the soul, I do not think Jedah can win by going for Pyrons soul.

He is of course not a necessary combatant since the planet will probably be destroyed very early in the fight. So it comes down to a fight between the two (Or three depending on who Nosgoth is) that can maneuver and fight in space. While Jedah is an impressive guy, he is not quite the outer space combatant. I do not think he can fly in any way, so he would just be floating there. Assuming of course that the destruction of the planet did not kill him.


So this fight would be :Pyron and Nosgoth Vs. Dark Titan: or :Pyron Vs. Dark Titan:

If Nosgoth is a time manipulator, he probably wins. If not, I would be so bold as to say Dark Titan wins. 1. Pyron has better feats than Sargeras, and even going by speculation is greater than Sargeras. Jedah is a great deal greater than Kain when it comes to devouring souls, but I agree you are right, Bishamon who can steal souls with a single slash of his sword could not take Pyron's soul.

2. Ummm...Jedah actually flys while fighting in game. He floats above the ground, and like many DSers can fly.

Nosgoth is literally the entire planet LOK takes place in.

Pyron DESTROYS Sargeras, he is a great deal faster, stronger, more powerful, nearly as versatile if not as, bigger, and maybe even more experienced(Pyron has 200,000,000 million years of planet eating and star eating at his belt, what does Sargeras have?)

So the Warcraft characters cannot harm Sargeras? Big deal, Pyron is on a whole other maginitude of power compared to anyone he has fought.

Pyron might just make Sargeras into a fancy ring if Sargeras is lucky.

Becci is da shit flirt

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Pyron has better feats than Sargeras, and even going by speculation is greater than Sargeras. Jedah is a great deal greater than Kain when it comes to devouring souls, but I agree you are right, Bishamon who can steal souls with a single slash of his sword could not take Pyron's soul.

2. Ummm...Jedah actually flys while fighting in game. He floats above the ground, and like many DSers can fly.

Nosgoth is literally the entire planet LOK takes place in.

Pyron DESTROYS Sargeras, he is a great deal faster, stronger, more powerful, nearly as versatile if not as, bigger, and maybe even more experienced(Pyron has 200,000,000 million years of planet eating and star eating at his belt, what does Sargeras have?)

So the Warcraft characters cannot harm Sargeras? Big deal, Pyron is on a whole other maginitude of power compared to anyone he has fought.

Pyron might just make Sargeras into a fancy ring if Sargeras is lucky.

1. Pyron has shown more feats than Sargeras, but not necessarily better. But if Sargeras is as powerful as the books and Blizzard indicate him to be, a full forced Sargeras would handily defeat Pyron. Since Sargeras is the majority of times spoken of indirectly, it is hard to simply say 'he can do this'm 'he can do that' since we have not really seen much of him.

2. I think what she meant was that Jedah is no actual factor in this fight. Which I agree with.

3. When dealing with characters such as Sargeras, size does not matter much. Nor does speed. In Pyron's case, neither does versatility. How long Sargeras has been active is unknown. It has never been announced. Only the words 'countless years' has been used when speaking of the Pantheon. Could be 200.000.000 years. Could be 2.000.000. We do not know, but I fail to see how one with 2.000.000 such as Sargeras would not be sufficient to fight Pyron anyway.

4. Yes, he is of a whole other power magnitude. So is Sargeras to anyone Pyron has fought. This argument of yours is weak and just like the experience one, absolutely pointlessless. It is an A>B>C argument on the top of all things.

5. Probably. If he against all odds defeat Sargeras, he most certainly would like to remember it forever. So a ring is a good choice.

Originally posted by Becci
1. Pyron has shown more feats than Sargeras, but not necessarily better. But if Sargeras is as powerful as the books and Blizzard indicate him to be, a full forced Sargeras would handily defeat Pyron. Since Sargeras is the majority of times spoken of indirectly, it is hard to simply say 'he can do this'm 'he can do that' since we have not really seen much of him.

2. I think what she meant was that Jedah is no actual factor in this fight. Which I agree with.

3. When dealing with characters such as Sargeras, size does not matter much. Nor does speed. In Pyron's case, neither does versatility. How long Sargeras has been active is unknown. It has never been announced. Only the words 'countless years' has been used when speaking of the Pantheon. Could be 200.000.000 years. Could be 2.000.000. We do not know, but I fail to see how one with 2.000.000 such as Sargeras would not be sufficient to fight Pyron anyway.

4. Yes, he is of a whole other power magnitude. So is Sargeras to anyone Pyron has fought. This argument of yours is weak and just like the experience one, absolutely pointlessless. It is an A>B>C argument on the top of all things.

5. Probably. If he against all odds defeat Sargeras, he most certainly would like to remember it forever. So a ring is a good choice. 1. So name some feats better than Pyron's? So because Sargeras lacks feats, we assume he would beat Pyron? Lol.

2. So destroying a dimension which has a landmass several hundreds of times larger than Earth, a sea that surrouds the landmass, and whatever is beyond the walls surrounding the sea point to Jedah being a non-factor?

3. So...Sargeras beats Pyron, simply by doing it? Awesome argument. So even though Pyron holds nearly all advantages, Sargeras wins? And in those years, Pyron has absorbed the power of(And I quote) "Countless galaxies," but Sargeras>countless galaxies right?

4. You missed the entire point. Sargeras has proven to be immune to anyone he has fought, who do not possess so much as a fraction of Pyron's power, but we must assume he is immune to Pyron's attacks too? No-Limit fallacies at their finest. It is not an A>B>C argument, I am not arguing that because Pyron>People Sargeras fights he wins, but that since the people that cannot hurt Sargeras are<<<<<<<<<<<Pyron in power, Pyron can hurt him. You take narrative hyperbole too seriously, I can quite easily find quotes stating Pyron was omnipotent before he powered down to fight the Darkstalkers, but I don't, cause it is just narrative hyperbole.

5. Against all odds? Evidence points to Pyron dominating Sargeras with ease going by those magical butterflys I call feats. And Pyron can absorb Earth and make it into a ring, so yeah, he can do it to Sargeras.

I agree with jaxx, which is rare, Sargeras has very few feats especially if your comparing ihm to Pyron, what are you basing Sargs power off of? the Old Gods who are beings of very few real feats of power themselves were able to kill titans, Sargerus himself has been defeated by Azeroth, his intellect is little in comparison to many of Azeroth and imo Pyron beats him in intellect, his power is nothing to Pyrons snce he has no feats to base his power on, the guys got nothing, hes defeated a few races most of which are cowards like the nethrezim, their not real fighters, just schemers, him defeating them is no mean feat, I wouldnt be surprised if Kain had their planet and dominated them uner his control given time.

Kain could simply make Jedah also attack Sarg using inspire hate powers or spirit wracks, using repel shield he could refelect any spells Sargerus uses against Kain back on him thus its lielyl Sargs own powers, since he chooses to use them would also effect him disaserously, also assumptions aside and going only by what we know for definite, Sarg is fair game to a incapaication time freezing projectile.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. So name some feats better than Pyron's? So because Sargeras lacks feats, we assume he would beat Pyron? Lol.

2. So destroying a dimension which has a landmass several hundreds of times larger than Earth, a sea that surrouds the landmass, and whatever is beyond the walls surrounding the sea point to Jedah being a non-factor?

3. So...Sargeras beats Pyron, simply by doing it? Awesome argument. So even though Pyron holds nearly all advantages, Sargeras wins? And in those years, Pyron has absorbed the power of(And I quote) "Countless galaxies," but Sargeras>countless galaxies right?

4. You missed the entire point. Sargeras has proven to be immune to anyone he has fought, who do not possess so much as a fraction of Pyron's power, but we must assume he is immune to Pyron's attacks too? No-Limit fallacies at their finest. It is not an A>B>C argument, I am not arguing that because Pyron>People Sargeras fights he wins, but that since the people that cannot hurt Sargeras are<<<<<<<<<<<Pyron in power, Pyron can hurt him. You take narrative hyperbole too seriously, I can quite easily find quotes stating Pyron was omnipotent before he powered down to fight the Darkstalkers, but I don't, cause it is just narrative hyperbole.

5. Against all odds? Evidence points to Pyron dominating Sargeras with ease going by those magical butterflys I call feats. And Pyron can absorb Earth and make it into a ring, so yeah, he can do it to Sargeras.

1. Better is a matter of definition. And I never said that we should assume that because of his lack of feats he could beat Pyron. Claiming that was my intentions of the point I brought up is rather ignorant. You were the one who brought up speculations, not I. I merely continued on the same point.

2. Then it is settled. Sargeras moves himself to another dimension, has Jedah destroy the dimension Pyron and Nosgoth are in and then the two are declared winners. No problems there. If he can not destroy the dimension, then no, he is no real factor. Because for all I have heard of Jedah, his dimension bust and his soul suck are his strongest feats. Since his soul suck is not much of an option here, we will just have him bust the dimension and make Sargeras and himself winners.


3. You read, write, post and then think, dont you? You actually think that I am a pathetic little fangirl that says Sargeras wins simply because 'he does'? I know you are justified to think so when it comes to certain cases, but I honestly thought I had given a better impression of me to you and others than that troughout the many debates I have participated in. To say the least, I am disappointed to hear you indirectly claim me to be nothing but a fangirl and on the top of all things, bring sarcasm into everything.

I merely gave my opinion in a response to your point, so I do not know what you think gives you the right to try mock me.

I honestly do not want to dignify this point with a decent reply, but I will do so anyway. Magic. That is what I believe Sargeras has over Pyron, and it is what I believe will have him defeat Pryon. It may be true that in time, Pyron could break what is supposed to be the indestructable body of Sargeras, and might be so that Pyron is more endurant than Sargeras, but not all strength come from muscles.


4. Have I as much as one single time brought up Sargeras immunity in this thread? What the heck are you doing, Dark-Jaxx? I have not brought up any narrator claiming Sargeras physical indestructability and I never intended to do so. If this is how you debate nowdays, you have turned out as much a disappointment as Burning Thought. I never even declined that any people who has fought Sargeras was even close to Pyron in power. In fact, I claimed the very opposite, that Pyron is on a very different level than any Sargeras has fought.

5. Evidence? What evidence? You mean evidence such as Sargeras teleporting away and fights Pyron from a seperate dimension, out of the giants reach. Or maybe the lack of evidence that Pyron has any sort of soul resistance, which could result in Sargeras possessing Pyron's body and taking him out over time. Or maybe evidence such as even though Sargeras body is destroyed, he can still exist as nothing but a spirit and even then still remain active in combat? Maybe would you like some evidence of Sargeras capability to preform actual BFR?

Originally posted by Burning thought
I agree with jaxx, which is rare, Sargeras has very few feats especially if your comparing ihm to Pyron, what are you basing Sargs power off of? the Old Gods who are beings of very few real feats of power themselves were able to kill titans, Sargerus himself has been defeated by Azeroth, his intellect is little in comparison to many of Azeroth and imo Pyron beats him in intellect, his power is nothing to Pyrons snce he has no feats to base his power on, the guys got nothing, hes defeated a few races most of which are cowards like the nethrezim, their not real fighters, just schemers, him defeating them is no mean feat, I wouldnt be surprised if Kain had their planet and dominated them uner his control given time.

He has countless more feats than Lich King, yet you debate in benefit of Lich King numerous times against many foes, many very powerful and that has feats of their own. You are not in a position to say a character can not be in a debate for not having sufficient solid feats to back everything up.

Originally posted by Becci
1. Better is a matter of definition. And I never said that we should assume that because of his lack of feats he could beat Pyron. Claiming that was my intentions of the point I brought up is rather ignorant. You were the one who brought up speculations, not I. I merely continued on the same point.

2. Then it is settled. Sargeras moves himself to another dimension, has Jedah destroy the dimension Pyron and Nosgoth are in and then the two are declared winners. No problems there. If he can not destroy the dimension, then no, he is no real factor. Because for all I have heard of Jedah, his dimension bust and his soul suck are his strongest feats. Since his soul suck is not much of an option here, we will just have him bust the dimension and make Sargeras and himself winners.


3. You read, write, post and then think, dont you? You actually think that I am a pathetic little fangirl that says Sargeras wins simply because 'he does'? I know you are justified to think so when it comes to certain cases, but I honestly thought I had given a better impression of me to you and others than that troughout the many debates I have participated in. To say the least, I am disappointed to hear you indirectly claim me to be nothing but a fangirl and on the top of all things, bring sarcasm into everything.

I merely gave my opinion in a response to your point, so I do not know what you think gives you the right to try mock me.

I honestly do not want to dignify this point with a decent reply, but I will do so anyway. Magic. That is what I believe Sargeras has over Pyron, and it is what I believe will have him defeat Pryon. It may be true that in time, Pyron could break what is supposed to be the indestructable body of Sargeras, and might be so that Pyron is more endurant than Sargeras, but not all strength come from muscles.


4. Have I as much as one single time brought up Sargeras immunity in this thread? What the heck are you doing, Dark-Jaxx? I have not brought up any narrator claiming Sargeras physical indestructability and I never intended to do so. If this is how you debate nowdays, you have turned out as much a disappointment as Burning Thought. I never even declined that any people who has fought Sargeras was even close to Pyron in power. In fact, I claimed the very opposite, that Pyron is on a very different level than any Sargeras has fought.

5. Evidence? What evidence? You mean evidence such as Sargeras teleporting away and fights Pyron from a seperate dimension, out of the giants reach. Or maybe the lack of evidence that Pyron has any sort of soul resistance, which could result in Sargeras possessing Pyron's body and taking him out over time. Or maybe evidence such as even though Sargeras body is destroyed, he can still exist as nothing but a spirit and even then still remain active in combat? Maybe would you like some evidence of Sargeras capability to preform actual BFR? Becci, I would like to apologise for my rudeness and mockery in the previous post, I did not mean to imply you were a fangirl or that you were stupid.

1. But what feats are better than Pyron's?

2. Only Pyron himself is about as large and more powerful than the dimension Jedah destroyed. And...Pretty much everyone and their mother can travel dimensions in Nosgoth, as can Pyron, hell, Pyron can see past dimensional walls.

3. I did not mean to imply you were a fangirl, and for that I am sorry.

You are right, I do not.

But here is the thing, magic is a term that gets thrown around alot, but all it truly is is a title. If one character can do most of the same things a character who uses magic to do it can, why should the magic-user be treated superior? The idea that Pyron is nothing more than a really big muscle-bound brute is a gross oversimplification and is highly inaccurate, he has much more versatility and intelligence than he is given credit for.

4. I assumed that since you were bringing up Arich's durability, you were using it to assert that Sargeras was invulnerable. But what durability feats does he really have out of curiosity?

5. Pyron can not only go to other dimensions, he can use his powers from other dimensions as well, such as telepathy. Pyron has outright dominated Bishamon, who could not touch Pyron's soul. But how will Sargeras fight Pyron as a spirit when he is not able to possess him? BFR how?

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Becci, I would like to apologise for my rudeness and mockery in the previous post, I did not mean to imply you were a fangirl or that you were stupid.

1. But what feats are better than Pyron's?

2. Only Pyron himself is about as large and more powerful than the dimension Jedah destroyed. And...Pretty much everyone and their mother can travel dimensions in Nosgoth, as can Pyron, hell, Pyron can see past dimensional walls.

3. I did not mean to imply you were a fangirl, and for that I am sorry.

You are right, I do not.

But here is the thing, magic is a term that gets thrown around alot, but all it truly is is a title. If one character can do most of the same things a character who uses magic to do it can, why should the magic-user be treated superior? The idea that Pyron is nothing more than a really big muscle-bound brute is a gross oversimplification and is highly inaccurate, he has much more versatility and intelligence than he is given credit for.

4. I assumed that since you were bringing up Arich's durability, you were using it to assert that Sargeras was invulnerable. But what durability feats does he really have out of curiosity?

5. Pyron can not only go to other dimensions, he can use his powers from other dimensions as well, such as telepathy. Pyron has outright dominated Bishamon, who could not touch Pyron's soul. But how will Sargeras fight Pyron as a spirit when he is not able to possess him? BFR how?

1. While Sargeras has never busted any planets, he has done some things that are impressive. Pyron may be raw power with some fancy options, but Sargeras is much more than a powerhouse.
- He created a new school of magic, which that alone shows his incredible powers.
- He with a snap of his fingers blessed two mortal beings with unlimited power, boundries being only within their own minds. - He has shown over and over again that he can use his spells even while not being in the same dimension.

While Pyron has better feats in his way, Sargeras has better feats in other ways. Sure they are not a match in their respective fields, but in the grand scheme, Sargeras is more potent.

2. Traveling between dimensions would not necessarily mean finding what they seek, or do so in time. Sargeras would run if he found running most suitable to the situation, and strike while keeping his distance. It is what he does. Or so says Shadow and Light. Sargeras will use dimensional doors to keep his distance, heal possible injuries whenever they occur and keep on attacking his advesaries. If a fight looks bad, he can always banish enemies from the field (BFR).

3. I know what Pyron is, and I know how overrated magic can be in many cases, but I do bring up magic in Sargeras case for a reason. He has a highly advanced telekinetical capability, but he can also absorb and manipulate energy. He has complete control over fire and heat, and complete immunity to fire and heat. He also has indirect indications of soul manipulation capabilities and very much direct feats of capability to possess powerful advesaries, and even so without them knowing. I just honestly can not imagine any more perfect forged charcter to actually beat Pyron. Not Kain, not Jedah, not Demitri, not KOS-MOS, not anyone more propriate than Sargeras

4. The only reason I brought up the Archimonde example, was because I was asked to. If you look at the post I quoted, you will see Burning Thought actually asking about Archimonde's endurance ever being stated.

The only durability feet he has, and a saddening feat it is, would be Brox swinging the axe into his leg and making a cut. I am aware that this feat is not exactly speaking in good for Sargeras, but with the exceptions of all the indestructable, immunity talk and such from sources that make references to Sargeras, the swing of Brox is the only time we have actually seen him take any sort of beating. The Sargeras Aegwynn fought was but an avatar, and can not be used as a sample of Sargeras true endurance.

So Sargeras only true endurance feat is him being cut in the leg by a green man with an overly-sized axe

5. Pyron traveling dimensions is news to me, as is the fact that Pyron has shown resilience to soul attacks. Sargeras BFR someone by more or less snap his finger, transfering his target to wherever he desire be it a different region, a different planet or a different dimension. This seems not to be a very useful ability against Pyron though, given the fact that he can travel dimensions.

Originally posted by Becci
1. While Sargeras has never busted any planets, he has done some things that are impressive. Pyron may be raw power with some fancy options, but Sargeras is much more than a powerhouse.
- He created a new school of magic, which that alone shows his incredible powers.
- He with a snap of his fingers blessed two mortal beings with unlimited power, boundries being only within their own minds. - He has shown over and over again that he can use his spells even while not being in the same dimension.

While Pyron has better feats in his way, Sargeras has better feats in other ways. Sure they are not a match in their respective fields, but in the grand scheme, Sargeras is more potent.

2. Traveling between dimensions would not necessarily mean finding what they seek, or do so in time. Sargeras would run if he found running most suitable to the situation, and strike while keeping his distance. It is what he does. Or so says Shadow and Light. Sargeras will use dimensional doors to keep his distance, heal possible injuries whenever they occur and keep on attacking his advesaries. If a fight looks bad, he can always banish enemies from the field (BFR).

3. I know what Pyron is, and I know how overrated magic can be in many cases, but I do bring up magic in Sargeras case for a reason. He has a highly advanced telekinetical capability, but he can also absorb and manipulate energy. He has complete control over fire and heat, and complete immunity to fire and heat. He also has indirect indications of soul manipulation capabilities and very much direct feats of capability to possess powerful advesaries, and even so without them knowing. I just honestly can not imagine any more perfect forged charcter to actually beat Pyron. Not Kain, not Jedah, not Demitri, not KOS-MOS, not anyone more propriate than Sargeras

4. The only reason I brought up the Archimonde example, was because I was asked to. If you look at the post I quoted, you will see Burning Thought actually asking about Archimonde's endurance ever being stated.

The only durability feet he has, and a saddening feat it is, would be Brox swinging the axe into his leg and making a cut. I am aware that this feat is not exactly speaking in good for Sargeras, but with the exceptions of all the indestructable, immunity talk and such from sources that make references to Sargeras, the swing of Brox is the only time we have actually seen him take any sort of beating. The Sargeras Aegwynn fought was but an avatar, and can not be used as a sample of Sargeras true endurance.

So Sargeras only true endurance feat is him being cut in the leg by a green man with an overly-sized axe

5. Pyron traveling dimensions is news to me, as is the fact that Pyron has shown resilience to soul attacks. Sargeras BFR someone by more or less snap his finger, transfering his target to wherever he desire be it a different region, a different planet or a different dimension. This seems not to be a very useful ability against Pyron though, given the fact that he can travel dimensions. 1. That is the thing though, Pyron is not a being of pure raw power, he has telepathy, matter and energy manipulation, creationism, Cosmic Awareness on beyond a galactic level, the power to see in the future(may only be a product of Cosmic Awareness though), among other things. Pyron can, without really doing anything from the look of it, convert Earth into a ring, he didn't grow and have the Earth orbit his finger like I originally thought, he literally remade Earth, without harming its life forms and all, as a ring.

2. But Sargeras cannot run forever, and in Nosgoth, there is only like three dimensions I think. Pyron is much faster than Sargeras however, can let most attacks phase right through him, and can destroy every world Sargeras flees to.

3. Has his TK affected someone of Pyron's vast size and strength? He has never absorbed as much energy as Pyron's body contains, or absorbed as much energy as Pyron has to my knowledge, and his control over flames IMO won't match Pyron's, a living Cosmic fire elemental. But Pyron's soul has shown resistance against a soul stealer. Thing is, many of Sargeras' powers are not useful against Pyron, and some of which Pyron has the same powers only to a higher level.

And KOS-MOS is an overrated and overhyped piece of shit.

4. Yeah...I admit I jumped the gun on that one.

.......Lol wut? Really?

That's...Well it is kinda sad.

5. If not stopped by Demitri, he WOULD have devoured Makai as well as Earth. He has shown resilience by not only beating Bishamon, doing it effortlessly. He did not even need to attack, he only needed to power up and his energies literally separated Bishamon from his armor, which is bound by body and even soul. So Pyron, in canon, has affected the soul of a fighter, and this was while mortal mind you, not full power. Yeah, I do not think said BFR would affect Pyron or most in LOK for that matter lol.

Originally posted by Becci
He has countless more feats than Lich King, yet you debate in benefit of Lich King numerous times against many foes, many very powerful and that has feats of their own. You are not in a position to say a character can not be in a debate for not having sufficient solid feats to back everything up.

I can, if you have any idea of the way I debate LK I usually announce beforehand my waiting for more evidence for LK and how he is undebatable, yet I contunie when you and Utrigos are invovled becaue both of you usually debate characters with few actual power designations thus turning the deabte into not what we KNOW them to have but into what we belive.

I know exactly how you debate Lich King. Which is why I wrote what I did.

good, well you should know then how I always discount using characters we have very little clue off, when we have our trivial debates on LK vs Kiljaeden for example it does not amount to much because the charactes are no fully known, we usually use statements and tip bits of info from other sources but nothing can outline them properly like most debatable characters can be, thus making the Dark titan in a thread against more detailed characters pointless.

Pointless? Is it pointless just because one character is tougher to debate than most other?

its pointless because you simply cannot debate it properly, if you dont know a beings specifics then you cannot prove it can win, therefore it is useless to debate the being in question.

Oh me oh my. The irony is Over 9,000.

Add in a factor ^9000

Originally posted by Burning thought
good, well you should know then how I always discount using characters we have very little clue off, when we have our trivial debates on LK vs Kiljaeden for example it does not amount to much because the charactes are no fully known, we usually use statements and tip bits of info from other sources but nothing can outline them properly like most debatable characters can be, thus making the Dark titan in a thread against more detailed characters pointless.

Incorrect there is plenty of things we know about the Dark Titan and Kil'Jaeden.

Dark Titan.

Telepathy (able to commune with his servants, such as Mannoroth and Archimonde, from the Nether it should be noted that Archimonde was capable of making contact with all Eredar and Dreadlords on the battlefield during the war of the ancient and is still nothing but a flea next to sargeras)
Illusion (created a false vision of what he offered to the eredar in exchange for their obedience and then with a fraction of his power amped the Eredar leauges and leauges beyond what they previously was and yet wasn't other then fleas to Sargeras)
Invulnerability against mortal weapons, and limited immunity to immortal ones (the axe created by Cenarius for Broxigar was able to wound him, but not to any great effect based surely on the fact that it was infused with the power of Nature from Malorne, Elune and Cenarius, while the powers of the Demon Soul had no effect) as well as complete immunity to fire and fel magics.
Various magical abilities (lashed out with energy at Illidan via the portal being opened to summon him).
Able to look into the mortal realm through the eyes of a chosen servant (his "gift" to Illidan).
Cosmic knowledge (as a former Titan, Sargeras was likely aware of the existence of the malevolent Old Gods).
Ability to enter mortal bodies (remained within Aegwynn's womb for nearly a millennium) and take control of them (Medivh).
Body Flames (Sargeras’ flesh burns with demonic energy, scorching everything in his path. Sargeras’s body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to 50 degrees in every direction for 1,000 miles. The effect on natural climates can be devastating.)S&L 123-24.
His molten armor can nearly burn your eyes.S&L 124.
The strength of 100 dragons is merely a fraction of Sargeras' strength; Sund 324 his strength nearly matches the power of a portal closing.
In comparison to Sargeras, Mannoroth and Archimonde were as fleas. Sund 324 This could be a reference to either power or height.

Plenty and that is just what I can remember.

Kil'Jaeden.

Above Archimonde and Velen in magical might. Archimonde has used his power to destroy the city of Dalaran with ease, ripped the scales from a adult dragon with a gesture, the telepathy has been mentioned earlier, sufficiant magical strength to force Elune to take action to save Tyranda, Forced the aspects into saving the Band of Malfurion, Tyranda Brox and Rhonin when he was about to cast a spell that would turn them to stone, to the combined might of the aspect was required to stop Archimondes spell and Kil'Jaeden is above him, Kil'Jaeden enslaved the dreadlords and created the Lich King using his own power. Furthermore the height within the eredar is based on magical abilities, Kil'Jaeden is the heighest in a race where a ordinary Paramount spell can destroy a planet.

To say that neither of these Characters are known is a understatement.

But I will hold your statement close to my heart the next time Scion Kain is in question...

No its not, none of those things youve listed apart from ripping scales from a dragon are relvent when you look at the character, Sargeras is still unkown, because the things youve listed dont speak detailed on his actual powersl, what he can really do, what he actually does in a battle and how much he can really take from various things, if a small axe regardless of its nature power (none of those who enchanted it are near even Kiljaeden leauge, praps not even Archimonde) then obviously he has very little endurance especially to thel ikes of Pyron.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No its not, none of those things youve listed apart from ripping scales from a dragon are relvent when you look at the character, Sargeras is still unkown, because the things youve listed dont speak detailed on his actual powersl, what he can really do, what he actually does in a battle and how much he can really take from various things, if a small axe regardless of its nature power (none of those who enchanted it are near even Kiljaeden leauge, praps not even Archimonde) then obviously he has very little endurance especially to thel ikes of Pyron.

Are you kidding?! His combat description is perhaps even more detailed than Kain and what he does in a battle! He probably has more abilities recorded than Kain has ever used as well. If you want to know the endurance, you could always just think of Archimonde and then dwarf Archimonde's endurance in comparison to Sargeras shrug





Sargeras is a huge being almost beyond comprehension. He is fully clad in a burning suit of molten, black armor. Wildly dancing flames surround his head and form a thick mass of hair and a sweeping beard. A pair of horns extends from his forehead and a burning tail sweeps behind, leaving a trail of glowing embers in its wake. One of its arms hefts a massive, etched lance that is lined with a series of viciously hooked barbs. Demonic influences have given Sargeras body flames.

Sargeras doesn't fight fair. He fights dirty and goes for the throat as quickly as possible. He also doesn't fight alone. Sargeras has a universe of formerly vanquished demons that he now commands to do his bidding. Most of them even do so gladly.

As a former champion of the titans, Sargeras is nearly impervious to physical damage. He is highly resistant to magical attacks. His natural attacks are more powerful than other titans. Demonic influences have given Sargeras' body flames and made him totally immune to fire damage and fel damage. Sargeras’ flesh burns with demonic energy, scorching everything in his path. Sargeras' body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to fifty degrees in every direction for one thousand miles. The effect on natural climates can be devastating.

When he has his normal horde of demons on hand, Sargeras usually begins a fight by casting enlarge person, displacement, haste, mage armor and shield on himself, plus slow on as many enemies as he can. He identifies the most powerful threat in a battle and instructs his own most powerful forces to focus on the single threat until it's dead or at least banished from the fight. He then identifies the next most dangerous foe, and continues in this way working down the ladder until he is victorious. Sargeras uses his most powerful spells and abilities first, such as domination on evil outsiders; energy drain on an enemy spellcaster; blasphemy on visitors from other planes; or power word stun, disintegrate, phantasmal killer and flame strike. He uses quickened telekinesis to toss enemies around and disrupt his enemies’ attempts to coordinate their side of the battle.

Sargeras is deadly in melee. He has no problem forcing his way with his demon bodyguards through enemy lines to strike at the most dangerous foes. If somehow severely damaged, Sargeras begins casting dimension door to maintain his distance while using heal to restore his life. All other tactics aside, Sargeras’ truly favored tactic is to use summoned minions to aid him. If the battle is going to rage for a long time, he uses planar binding spells to bring forth powerful evil outsiders and dominates them. As the battle draws on, he uses summon monster spells instead.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Are you kidding?! His combat description is perhaps even more detailed than Kain and what he does in a battle! He probably has more abilities recorded than Kain has ever used as well. If you want to know the endurance, you could always just think of Archimonde and then dwarf Archimonde's endurance in comparison to Sargeras shrug





Sargeras is a huge being almost beyond comprehension. He is fully clad in a burning suit of molten, black armor. Wildly dancing flames surround his head and form a thick mass of hair and a sweeping beard. A pair of horns extends from his forehead and a burning tail sweeps behind, leaving a trail of glowing embers in its wake. One of its arms hefts a massive, etched lance that is lined with a series of viciously hooked barbs. Demonic influences have given Sargeras body flames.

Sargeras doesn't fight fair. He fights dirty and goes for the throat as quickly as possible. He also doesn't fight alone. Sargeras has a universe of formerly vanquished demons that he now commands to do his bidding. Most of them even do so gladly.

As a former champion of the titans, Sargeras is nearly impervious to physical damage. He is highly resistant to magical attacks. His natural attacks are more powerful than other titans. Demonic influences have given Sargeras' body flames and made him totally immune to fire damage and fel damage. Sargeras’ flesh burns with demonic energy, scorching everything in his path. Sargeras' body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to fifty degrees in every direction for one thousand miles. The effect on natural climates can be devastating.

When he has his normal horde of demons on hand, Sargeras usually begins a fight by casting enlarge person, displacement, haste, mage armor and shield on himself, plus slow on as many enemies as he can. He identifies the most powerful threat in a battle and instructs his own most powerful forces to focus on the single threat until it's dead or at least banished from the fight. He then identifies the next most dangerous foe, and continues in this way working down the ladder until he is victorious. Sargeras uses his most powerful spells and abilities first, such as domination on evil outsiders; energy drain on an enemy spellcaster; blasphemy on visitors from other planes; or power word stun, disintegrate, phantasmal killer and flame strike. He uses quickened telekinesis to toss enemies around and disrupt his enemies’ attempts to coordinate their side of the battle.

Sargeras is deadly in melee. He has no problem forcing his way with his demon bodyguards through enemy lines to strike at the most dangerous foes. If somehow severely damaged, Sargeras begins casting dimension door to maintain his distance while using heal to restore his life. All other tactics aside, Sargeras’ truly favored tactic is to use summoned minions to aid him. If the battle is going to rage for a long time, he uses planar binding spells to bring forth powerful evil outsiders and dominates them. As the battle draws on, he uses summon monster spells instead.

no its not, false and you cant just assume, what is so much greater than Archimonde? that is simply assuming and making up your own mind on his endurance, not what it actually is.

hes at least the size of a planet if not a bit bigger, so not beyond comprehension...your simply describg him there...

this is all from the RPG, this is not helping...as i said before, he is not got any detaield powers.

Two things here, immunityies to fire and fel are the first things you can actually use, the fire expanding out of him is a second but its not going to help him in this fight.

This is all from the RPG, bits and pieces of what he would do IN GAMEPLAY[ but not in a real canon battle.

From these descriptions he sounds nothing more than a combination of WoW classes which is gameplay and is further made odd by the fact this is gameplay statistics as well, yet you call all that more description than Kains abilities?

I did not call that more description than Kain's abilities. Didnt you read what I wrote? I called his way of combat more detailed, and I said that he probably has more abilities recorded than Kain ermm To me, it sounds like you are in denial. Tell me why he would not act the way he does in the RPG, in any other battle? And I did not write any of those lower paragraphs. It was Shadow and Light that described him as beyond comprehension. Not me.

weve seen all Kains way of combat with our own eyes so it doesnt have to be written detailed, more abilities, ime not so sure about that. In denial of what?

So far what can you debate Sarg with? what attacks would he use? finding a statement somewhere that says "he is very powerful" doesnt help him in a debate and its not an ability.

Because thats the gamepaly RPG, he wouldnt act like that anymore than Norgannon would use simple mage spells, most of those are simple spells the classes in WoW use, if a Titan uses those types of spells then they are pathetic beings who are overhyped even more than I thought so before, however I dont belive that is the way they would act, I think they would use powers we simply dont know yet, simple, which is why they are not so debatable.

Guessing at their ednurance just by gauging off their henchmen like Archiomonde or guessing their powers just becuase of something saying their "incredible power" or other statements of lack of detail.

If you truly belive that the RPG gameplay is the way the canon Sarg would likely fight I would be very surprised, if it is, then you must also Belelive Sarg loses this battle in an instant since none of those powers described will help him much.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
nearly impervious to physical damage, is highly resistant to magical attacks, natural attacks are more powerful than other titans, totally immune to fire damage and fel damage, scorching everything in his path, body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to fifty degrees in every direction for one thousand miles, enlarge person, displacement, haste, mage armor, shield, slow, identifies the most powerful, banished, domination, energy drain, blasphemy, power word stun, disintegrate, phantasmal killer , flame strike, quickened telekinesis, dimension door, heal, planar binding spells, summon monster spells

Care to tell me how exactly that is "WoW classes abilities"?

have you not played WoW? haste, slow, banishment, domnation (I think), energy drain, power words, flamestrike are all WoW powers, mainly gameplay powers in general, what does it say for Sylvanas in the same book? or is she in the MoM, ime sure it doesnt say in that book what it says she does in the canon novels?

Slow, Banishment, Domination, Flamestrike and Haste exist in the Warcraft universe and are very useful skills. Deal with it. What, should Sargeras not use slow and haste merely because he is better than others? Even though he is as powerful as he is, slow and haste are two basic skills that help against any advesaries. Just because skills he use exist in WoW does not mean he is some weakass caster. Draining the energies from an opponent is not a bad move, preventing them to use spells. To dominate a foe is not a very useless spell either. And next time you play WoW, look around you. There is no spell called: "Power Word Stun". Power Word is merely a spell spoken by tongue. Flame Strike has been used by characters than him, yes, but why would that mean he should not use it in battle? Fire is kinda his "thing"

Because surely a Titan would be using more powers many we wouldnt even know far far beyond anything Azeroth mages use simply, its ridiculous, Norgannon the master of magic isnt going to sit there casting Frostbolt, thats as silly as it sounds...

On norgannons it says he apprently escapes to safety with all the titans using Wish, I mean heavens above whos going to defeat the Pantheon for them to need to escape? then theres a load of gameplay in the same "combat" box, using the RPG gameplay isnt exactley useful in determining his canon fighting ability.

BT, I have never even seen proof that Sargeras is even planet sized...

What about the image where he has his sword in the planet? i think thats in this thread, the Titans build pieces of a planet with their hands however which leads me to belive they are usually less than planet sized because they scrape up rivers and create canyons etc etc

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because surely a Titan would be using more powers many we wouldnt even know far far beyond anything Azeroth mages use simply, its ridiculous, Norgannon the master of magic isnt going to sit there casting Frostbolt, thats as silly as it sounds...

On norgannons it says he apprently escapes to safety with all the titans using Wish, I mean heavens above whos going to defeat the Pantheon for them to need to escape? then theres a load of gameplay in the same "combat" box, using the RPG gameplay isnt exactley useful in determining his canon fighting ability.

Did it occur to you that maybe he did not use more powers because he does not have to? He is after all referred to as the most powerful entity in the universe. Does it surprise you so much that he use simple spells that enhance him and debuff opposition? Perhaps he does not NEED anything more?

As Becci has said in a previous thread, Norgannon and the boys are not taking combat into a habit. They are not the warrior type Much like how they made the aspects guardians and not warriors. Sargeras is something different. He was their warrior. He was the one getting corrupted. You can not use pantheon stuff on him, because he is no longer pantheon.

How is it not useful? The books are canon, so why should not a canon description be canon?

I say CC wins the argument on the grounds that she is hotter.

I can live with that shrug

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Did it occur to you that maybe he did not use more powers because he does not have to? He is after all referred to as the most powerful entity in the universe. Does it surprise you so much that he use simple spells that enhance him and debuff opposition? Perhaps he does not NEED anything more?

As Becci has said in a previous thread, Norgannon and the boys are not taking combat into a habit. They are not the warrior type Much like how they made the aspects guardians and not warriors. Sargeras is something different. He was their warrior. He was the one getting corrupted. You can not use pantheon stuff on him, because he is no longer pantheon.

How is it not useful? The books are canon, so why should not a canon description be canon?

Sure..but that doesnt mean anything in a debate...you need specifics. Simply saying he must be so overpowering because he doesnt need anything more advanced doesnt help you in favour against Pyron, Nosgoth or Jedah.

That doesnt mean much either, since them not taking combat into a habit is neither here nor there in context with Sarg being powerful, he himself has a similiar combat gameplay role out that youve already posted, its just simple, if their the only specific abilities you can find for him then he will be douched by all in the thread. Especially by Pyron.

Because their "useless", they have hardly any information regarding what he would do in a canon situation, all they have is gameplay, thus their useless, since you cannot use gameplay, either way its a rule in this forum (a silly one imo) that only stuff said and shown in the actual games is canon nothing else.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No its not, none of those things youve listed apart from ripping scales from a dragon are relvent when you look at the character, Sargeras is still unkown, because the things youve listed dont speak detailed on his actual powersl, what he can really do, what he actually does in a battle and how much he can really take from various things, if a small axe regardless of its nature power (none of those who enchanted it are near even Kiljaeden leauge, praps not even Archimonde) then obviously he has very little endurance especially to thel ikes of Pyron.

Sorry but you said.



I showed that, the statement was vary far from the case we have a good clue of what exactly Sargeras is capable of accomplishe consideret that he is above both Archimonde Kil'Jaeden Mannaroth and his entire army combined.

What??? Elune the Goddess of the Earth almost Nature Magic incarnated is Close to Archimondes league??? She is above Archimonde did you miss the part where Achimonde couldn't break her shield around Tyranda? And it was Nature Magic that is the only thing that has shown capable of hurting the Dark Titan and his second in command, hell it toke the destruction of the World Tree (that is fused with the Well of Eternity the Well created from the original by the Titans) a immense powerful Natur Magical Charge to kill him, and Archimonde is a flea to Sargeras on all aspects...

Originally posted by Utrigita
Sorry but you said.



I showed that, the statement was vary far from the case we have a good clue of what exactly Sargeras is capable of accomplishe consideret that he is above both Archimonde Kil'Jaeden Mannaroth and his entire army combined.

What??? Elune the Goddess of the Earth almost Nature Magic incarnated is Close to Archimondes league??? She is above Archimonde did you miss the part where Achimonde couldn't break her shield around Tyranda? And it was Nature Magic that is the only thing that has shown capable of hurting the Dark Titan and his second in command, hell it toke the destruction of the World Tree (that is fused with the Well of Eternity the Well created from the original by the Titans) a immense powerful Natur Magical Charge to kill him, and Archimonde is a flea to Sargeras on all aspects...

Him being above them is not a clue to what he can do in a debate however, there are very few speicifc powers, simply knowing hes beyond his army doesnt mean much in a debate, you need specific endurances, what powers he definaltey has and cna use etc, in teh canon very few have been noted.

Shes beyond Titan league imo, but not in power to destroy, thus what I meant was that shes not in league with Sarg/Archi in destruction/damaging since she is a peaceful goddess.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Him being above them is not a clue to what he can do in a debate however, there are very few speicifc powers, simply knowing hes beyond his army doesnt mean much in a debate, you need specific endurances, what powers he definaltey has and cna use etc, in teh canon very few have been noted.

Oh yes it is, We know perfectly well what the Eredar Dreadlords Pitlords Archimonde Kil'Jaeden etc can perform and we know that all their power combined is nothing next to Sargeras the Army that is countless is nothing against it's masters power. I have already listed his Endurance it requires Natur Magic of extremely powerful calibre to injure Sargeras, do any of his opponents bring that to the field?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Shes beyond Titan league imo, but not in power to destroy, thus what I meant was that shes not in league with Sarg/Archi in destruction/damaging since she is a peaceful goddess.

Of cause she isn't about going around destroying, but I found it strange that now you label Elune at Titan level when you earlier said



One of those none was Elune, going by your logic Sargeras endurance would be off the charts considering that a being that is above the Titans is the only being capable of making a weapon that is capable of injuring him.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Oh yes it is, We know perfectly well what the Eredar Dreadlords Pitlords Archimonde Kil'Jaeden etc can perform and we know that all their power combined is nothing next to Sargeras the Army that is countless is nothing against it's masters power. I have already listed his Endurance it requires Natur Magic of extremely powerful calibre to injure Sargeras, do any of his opponents bring that to the field?



Of cause she isn't about going around destroying, but I found it strange that now you label Elune at Titan level when you earlier said



One of those none was Elune, going by your logic Sargeras endurance would be off the charts considering that a being that is above the Titans is the only being capable of making a weapon that is capable of injuring him.

So we just assume he has the same powers they have? thats a very bad assumption, you cant just assume and guess hes got exactley the same powers they have, his power being above them is not important especially when Pyron in this battle as well as Kain could single handadly defeat the beings he is above.

Shes not powerful when fighting, thats what i meant, overall Id put her slightly above Titans in power.

Not really off teh charts because I dont feel the titans are even that powerful when their put side by side with beings like Pyron, also your looking at it at very basic terms, Elune enchanting it doesnt mean its power is based around damage from her, if it says she enchanted it then that doesnt mean shes enchanted it with destructive power, especially since shes not a desctructive goddess.

Be that as it may Cowgirl she has no destruction feats afaik, care to show me some if she has?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Be that as it may Cowgirl she has no destruction feats afaik, care to show me some if she has?

Excuse me? How should I know if she has feats or not? I am no Warcraft professor, as you should have learnt by now.

well if you can find that she was known as a Night Warrior I imagined you could find information teh same way on her feats.

It was a mere summary from WoW-Europe. The reason I posted it was because you said she was peaceful, proving you know little of her. I just wanted to set facts straight, that she is a warrior. Or so WoW-Europe says.

That doesnt prove I know little of her, she is a peaceful goddess still.....

She is a warrior. How is that being peaceful?

It says she doesnt stay at peace consistently, it doesnt say she is always a warrior, infact it says she is usually peaceful, just not always.

A peaceful person does not have to be a pacifist

She has a title saying Night Warrior. Having a title speaking of war makes her a little more than just 'not always pacifist' I imagine

no not really, a Goddess would have hundreds of titles especially as old as Elune is, hell the Tauren think of her as another name as well, she has many titles mostly to do with the moon however, having one title doesnt make her less peaceful.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So we just assume he has the same powers they have? thats a very bad assumption, you cant just assume and guess hes got exactley the same powers they have, his power being above them is not important especially when Pyron in this battle as well as Kain could single handadly defeat the beings he is above.

Shes not powerful when fighting, thats what i meant, overall Id put her slightly above Titans in power.

Not really off teh charts because I dont feel the titans are even that powerful when their put side by side with beings like Pyron, also your looking at it at very basic terms, Elune enchanting it doesnt mean its power is based around damage from her, if it says she enchanted it then that doesnt mean shes enchanted it with destructive power, especially since shes not a desctructive goddess.

Be that as it may Cowgirl she has no destruction feats afaik, care to show me some if she has?

Ehh yes because the guy basically invented Fel Magic as it's used today, a fraction of his power amped Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde to what they is etc, so yes we can when a Army that is countless is stated to be nothing against it's master then nothing in that army can hurt of defeat Sargeras. So Kain could easily defeat Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde and the entire Burning Legion?

And that is never what I meant.

The Axe was created by Cenarius (strong Nature magic) Later Malorne granted it his blessing (infusing his even Stronger Natur Magic) then before Brox entered the Twisted Nether Elune gave her blessing (even stronger Natur Magic then Cenarius and Malorne combined) it put a scrath on Sargeras that was all. Again it toke the Destruction of the World Tree, the Night elves sacrifise of their immortality and the destruction of the Second well of eternity to destroy Archimonde, the same Well that would have maked Archimonde Supreme had be tapped into it, that is the level of Natur power that is going to be brought to Archimonde which Again is a flea to Sargeras, yet again what does the other team (Pyron and Nosgoth) have that rivals the nature magical outburst that the Well of Eternity produced? Nothing which means that even against Archimonde they would be hard pressed to put him down for good, it takes a force that rocks the earth and wields strong nature magic just to pierce his skin (Malorne incident), what the hell is their chances against Sargeras?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Ehh yes because the guy basically invented Fel Magic as it's used today, a fraction of his power amped Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde to what they is etc, so yes we can when a Army that is countless is stated to be nothing against it's master then nothing in that army can hurt of defeat Sargeras. So Kain could easily defeat Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde and the entire Burning Legion?

And that is never what I meant.

The Axe was created by Cenarius (strong Nature magic) Later Malorne granted it his blessing (infusing his even Stronger Natur Magic) then before Brox entered the Twisted Nether Elune gave her blessing (even stronger Natur Magic then Cenarius and Malorne combined) it put a scrath on Sargeras that was all. Again it toke the Destruction of the World Tree, the Night elves sacrifise of their immortality and the destruction of the Second well of eternity to destroy Archimonde, the same Well that would have maked Archimonde Supreme had be tapped into it, that is the level of Natur power that is going to be brought to Archimonde which Again is a flea to Sargeras, yet again what does the other team (Pyron and Nosgoth) have that rivals the nature magical outburst that the Well of Eternity produced? Nothing which means that even against Archimonde they would be hard pressed to put him down for good, it takes a force that rocks the earth and wields strong nature magic just to pierce his skin (Malorne incident), what the hell is their chances against Sargeras?

Inventing fel magics? i thot he simply invented turning beings fel, that doesnt mean he gains all the powers of his army.

Archi and Killy? not easily, the legion? certainly, their nothing, infact most of them in their numbers would be helping kain.

woah woah woah, all this is assumption, the well of eternity outright smashed Arcihmonde, that doesnt mean Archimondes limit the Well of eternity, hell Pyron would just punch through Archimonde like a wet paper bag, probably the same with Sargerus, nothing states that only nature magic can harm them, simply that its the most effective, the forces Kain and Pyron have together, and Jedah is more than enough to annhilate Sarg....if he can be scratched by a tiny sword, no matter its enchantment, its obvious he can be damaged by something so small, now imagine a fist many times the size of Azeroth punching into his body and he will be left in shatters.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Inventing fel magics? i thot he simply invented turning beings fel, that doesnt mean he gains all the powers of his army.

Archi and Killy? not easily, the legion? certainly, their nothing, infact most of them in their numbers would be helping kain.

woah woah woah, all this is assumption, the well of eternity outright smashed Arcihmonde, that doesnt mean Archimondes limit the Well of eternity, hell Pyron would just punch through Archimonde like a wet paper bag, probably the same with Sargerus, nothing states that only nature magic can harm them, simply that its the most effective, the forces Kain and Pyron have together, and Jedah is more than enough to annhilate Sarg....if he can be scratched by a tiny sword, no matter its enchantment, its obvious he can be damaged by something so small, now imagine a fist many times the size of Azeroth punching into his body and he will be left in shatters.

Originally (at least as I see it) it was the eredar that invented the Fel Magic but with the change of it being Sargeras corrupting them and not the other way around, it turned into Sargeras becomming the "founder" of the demonic magic in other words the fel Magic.

Not easily? So you think he can take them?

So you think the Night Elves deliberately choosed to use the World Tree because they wanted to lose their immortality? Yeah that sounds likely... Really could he what supports that, when have he engaged a combattent where the impact rocked the earth? Only Nature Magic have shown capable of harming them, so to say that other things can hurt them is a assumption. Jedah is on his team? I don't think you quiet get what is so special about the Axe try to read the post again and try to understand that Malorne could only with a full attack make a pair of smalle holes in Archimonde so the assumption that Pyron with a fist can do more damage is speculation at best, do I have to mention what Archimonde is next to Sargeras?

does it actually say he created the fel magic and not just the fel energy? turning a being fel is basically turing them into a demon, thus it may not be a magic source he invented, simply an energy which warped magic already there.

sure. Especially the current Kain, Scion.

They chose it because THEY have no other power to defeat him with, their nothing on Pyron. What supports it, the fact that Archimonde has never survived anything of that caliber, rocked the Earth? pyron is the size of a gas giant, his impact would shatter Azeroth into fragments...

No, its a default likeliness, you would be making the no limits fallacy if you assume that only Nature magic can harm them, since there is no force on Azeroth or in warcraft as physically powerful as pyron.

Jedah may as well be on his team. So he actually broke into Archimonde? i didnt even know that happened, hell Pyron would definaltey blast all the way through, dont you realise the size and overall physical power of pyron? he is beyond anything Warcraft universe can bring to bare. its not speculation, the highest thing Archimonde has physically survived is Malornes hits? yet now you tell me they did some damage by making holes, so Pyron being far far beyond that a hundred times over would completly, as i said before, break through Archimonde like a wet paper bag with just a punch, now Pyron going at lightspeed and ramming Sargeras with an impact would shatter Sargeras, who still has not shown physical endurance beyond anything.

I dont need to re-read any post, your assuming every enchantment on the axe was made to destroy or do you have proof? either way, who the hell is the guy who hit Sargeras? ime pretty sure if it was a bigger weapon wielded by Pyron and he hit Sargerus with it, Sarg would become two pieces.

Originally posted by Burning thought
does it actually say he created the fel magic and not just the fel energy? turning a being fel is basically turing them into a demon, thus it may not be a magic source he invented, simply an energy which warped magic already there.

Fel Magic, since Fel energy was always present. Fel Energy was the reason Sargeras was appointed the Warrior of the Pantheon in the first place

Originally posted by Burning thought
sure. Especially the current Kain, Scion.

wait a second I thought you said earlier that

Originally posted by Burning thought
good, well you should know then how I always discount using characters we have very little clue off,

And we have very little, clue of what Scion Kain is capable of performing actually far less then what we have of Sargeras, known facts about Scion Kain is: Defeating the Elder God, teleporting, using 4 emblems and having telekinese that is lesser then what can be presented about Sargeras, so Sargeras is a better known factor then Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
They chose it because THEY have no other power to defeat him with, their nothing on Pyron. What supports it, the fact that Archimonde has never survived anything of that caliber, rocked the Earth? pyron is the size of a gas giant, his impact would shatter Azeroth into fragments...

Thats correct no other power on Earth was great enough to defeat him besides that, not the Aspects not Lich King not Malfurion bound with the earth. Just The well of Eternity if that doesn't speak for his power well... Where was he ever shown to be a Gas Giant?

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, its a default likeliness, you would be making the no limits fallacy if you assume that only Nature magic can harm them, since there is no force on Azeroth or in warcraft as physically powerful as pyron.

Because only Nature Damage has shown capable of doing it I cannot say that you need Nature damage to hurt them? What kind of logic is that? Really what is Pyrons top strength feat again what impact damage has he made when colliding with a opponent? fairly easy question.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Jedah may as well be on his team. So he actually broke into Archimonde? i didnt even know that happened, hell Pyron would definaltey blast all the way through, dont you realise the size and overall physical power of pyron? he is beyond anything Warcraft universe can bring to bare. its not speculation, the highest thing Archimonde has physically survived is Malornes hits? yet now you tell me they did some damage by making holes, so Pyron being far far beyond that a hundred times over would completly, as i said before, break through Archimonde like a wet paper bag with just a punch, now Pyron going at lightspeed and ramming Sargeras with an impact would shatter Sargeras, who still has not shown physical endurance beyond anything.

What? No I don't but I'm sure you can provide scans videos statements etc that supports everything. You like to twist words I see, I said that Archimonde collided with Malorne and the only visible markings on Archimonde from the impact that shooked the earth etc was small holes and again Malorne is a extremely powerful wielder of nature magic.Now you just have to prove that Pyron has a strength factor above Malorne. Actually he has, when the portal collapsed (the portal that sunderet the warcraft world) Sargeras was in the middle of it holding it open with his strength and taking the impact without being damaged.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont need to re-read any post, your assuming every enchantment on the axe was made to destroy or do you have proof? either way, who the hell is the guy who hit Sargeras? ime pretty sure if it was a bigger weapon wielded by Pyron and he hit Sargerus with it, Sarg would become two pieces.

I assume that every enchanment on the Axe was made to make it stronger, which it was, it was enchancented to increase it's efficiant against Sargeras should Brox confront him. A Orc. If a bigger weapon hit Sargeras it would shatter not Sargeras, had it been infused with Nature Magic then yes it would slice him in two, unfortunely Pyron doesn't have that possibility

Originally posted by Utrigita
Fel Magic, since Fel energy was always present. Fel Energy was the reason Sargeras was appointed the Warrior of the Pantheon in the first place



wait a second I thought you said earlier that



And we have very little, clue of what Scion Kain is capable of performing actually far less then what we have of Sargeras, known facts about Scion Kain is: Defeating the Elder God, teleporting, using 4 emblems and having telekinese that is lesser then what can be presented about Sargeras, so Sargeras is a better known factor then Kain.



Thats correct no other power on Earth was great enough to defeat him besides that, not the Aspects not Lich King not Malfurion bound with the earth. Just The well of Eternity if that doesn't speak for his power well... Where was he ever shown to be a Gas Giant?



Because only Nature Damage has shown capable of doing it I cannot say that you need Nature damage to hurt them? What kind of logic is that? Really what is Pyrons top strength feat again what impact damage has he made when colliding with a opponent? fairly easy question.



What? No I don't but I'm sure you can provide scans videos statements etc that supports everything. You like to twist words I see, I said that Archimonde collided with Malorne and the only visible markings on Archimonde from the impact that shooked the earth etc was small holes and again Malorne is a extremely powerful wielder of nature magic.Now you just have to prove that Pyron has a strength factor above Malorne. Actually he has, when the portal collapsed (the portal that sunderet the warcraft world) Sargeras was in the middle of it holding it open with his strength and taking the impact without being damaged.



I assume that every enchanment on the Axe was made to make it stronger, which it was, it was enchancented to increase it's efficiant against Sargeras should Brox confront him. A Orc. If a bigger weapon hit Sargeras it would shatter not Sargeras, had it been infused with Nature Magic then yes it would slice him in two, unfortunely Pyron doesn't have that possibility

Can you show me please?

No thats not true at all, Scion kain is simply stated to gain powers that are already described, Scion of balance powers etc etc, diffrence being their all corrupted and could not use their full power wheras Raziel cured Kain with the purified reaver thus making him powerful. Scion Kain has more understanding of what he can do.

When he gets bigger than his home planet which Jaxx claims to be bigger than Jupter although personally ive not seen proof the planet was that size. No but Malorne as youe stated damaged Archimonde.

A guy bigger than a gas giant does not need or require a strength feat, what logic are you thining here? the guy is enormous, its obvious his stregnth would smash/shatter the world. I didnt twist any words, you just said it made dents in Archimonde, "smal lholes" thus Archimonde can be punctured.

Thats not the feat, Sargerus holding open the portal means nothing, the power that sundered the world happened when the portal collapsed which from what I thot destroyed Sargeras? or did he just flee?

No its not but dont you see what ime saying? the size matters and Pyron is enormous, he would punch a hole through Sargeras who has not shown a physical feat of endurance anything like that.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Can you show me please?

No thats not true at all, Scion kain is simply stated to gain powers that are already described, Scion of balance powers etc etc, diffrence being their all corrupted and could not use their full power wheras Raziel cured Kain with the purified reaver thus making him powerful. Scion Kain has more understanding of what he can do.

When he gets bigger than his home planet which Jaxx claims to be bigger than Jupter although personally ive not seen proof the planet was that size. No but Malorne as youe stated damaged Archimonde.

A guy bigger than a gas giant does not need or require a strength feat, what logic are you thining here? the guy is enormous, its obvious his stregnth would smash/shatter the world. I didnt twist any words, you just said it made dents in Archimonde, "smal lholes" thus Archimonde can be punctured.

Thats not the feat, Sargerus holding open the portal means nothing, the power that sundered the world happened when the portal collapsed which from what I thot destroyed Sargeras? or did he just flee?

No its not but dont you see what ime saying? the size matters and Pyron is enormous, he would punch a hole through Sargeras who has not shown a physical feat of endurance anything like that.

I know Becci and DarkC got the quote will ask them to get it.

Oh please show me some feats for him then, something that supports he can take out Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden that shouldn't be a problem consideret how known he appears to be.

And he can grow to that size at will? Because Malorne was wielding nature magic what is a mystery about that statement only based on that was he capable of hurting him, neither of the combatents he faces now wields natur magic.

Sorry bro, but in Marvel a Guy can be the size of a Ant and still have more strength then a 100 Ton like thor, Size doesn't always equal strength Galactus can grow to the size of a sun but that doesn't increase his strength, Because you increase you size it doesn't mean that you strength increase equally, maybe it does in Darkstalkers about that I have no idea. And again you are missing out the important information Malorne = powerful druid wielder natur = Very small damage to Archimonde = ONLY DAMAGE DONE TO ARCHIMONDE IN THE WAR OF THE ANCIENT

Eh holding a portal open with your hands alone using only you strength is a feat addressing strength, withstanding the explosion afterwards without being killed is a endurance feet, furthermore the Titans when ordering Azeroth moved Mountains imagine the weight of those and that was regular Titans...

I have already given a example of Sargeras withstanding a portal collapsing that is a physical force then he withstood the Blast which was magical (arcane, not nature) and he was fine those are feats.

I dont need to show feats, hes just known, hes not done anything yet as you well know but hes got a mix of previous beings powers that makes him incredible powerful.

He is always that size usually, its his normal size it seems, he can shrink though, but he has no reason in this battle.

Thats besides the point, Malorne is not galactus, as youve said the guy shakes the planet, well Pyron would shatter the planet because his mass would be enormous Gas giant sized, "bro".

Can you show me this info please? him withstanding the sundering explosion?

From all the Warcraft lore stories ive not heard of Sarg being hit by the blast of the sundering, thus please show me.

Pyron while mortal is physically stronger than Donavan, who has a class 100 strength feat with one arm while being stabbed twice in the heart by a blood and soul draining sword...

Pyron simply by landing in the Atlantic Ocean killed an entire race of B-B+ class Darkstalkers...

Originally posted by Burning thought
Can you show me this info please? him withstanding the sundering explosion?

Sargeras never had the chance to withstand the sundering. He was inside the portal when it imploded, while the sundering happened just after that. He did survive an imploding portal though, for all that it matters. It is tough to compare the power of an imploding portal to any type of punch, no matter who delivers it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
if he can be scratched by a tiny sword, no matter its enchantment, its obvious he can be damaged by something so small, now imagine a fist many times the size of Azeroth punching into his body and he will be left in shatters.

The sword was an Ax, and the Ax did not inflict any sort of injury on Sargeras. Only scratched his skin to a sufficient level where Sargeras was scraped. Then the combined force of Alexstrasza, Rhonin and Korialstrasz blasted to that very scratch with all their power in one attack, and for an instant succeeded at making Sargeras notice the scratch, giving Malfurion enough time to execute the final closing.

The little weapon you so ignorantly call a weak force is in fact the power of Kalimdor, brought by Elune, infused by the words of Cenarius trough the hands of Malfurion to the Ax of Brox. That little Ax contain the power of a PLANET, and you consider it nothing but a little insignificant weapon?

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont need to re-read any post, your assuming every enchantment on the axe was made to destroy or do you have proof? either way, who the hell is the guy who hit Sargeras? ime pretty sure if it was a bigger weapon wielded by Pyron and he hit Sargerus with it, Sarg would become two pieces.

Of course, but where would Pyron get a Pyron-sized nature weapon?

...Becci, you didn't answer my post.

I feel so unloved. cry

Which post are you talking about? The most previous?

No, the one I addressed to you on the 2nd or 3rd page.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. That is the thing though, Pyron is not a being of pure raw power, he has telepathy, matter and energy manipulation, creationism, Cosmic Awareness on beyond a galactic level, the power to see in the future(may only be a product of Cosmic Awareness though), among other things. Pyron can, without really doing anything from the look of it, convert Earth into a ring, he didn't grow and have the Earth orbit his finger like I originally thought, he literally remade Earth, without harming its life forms and all, as a ring.

2. But Sargeras cannot run forever, and in Nosgoth, there is only like three dimensions I think. Pyron is much faster than Sargeras however, can let most attacks phase right through him, and can destroy every world Sargeras flees to.

3. Has his TK affected someone of Pyron's vast size and strength? He has never absorbed as much energy as Pyron's body contains, or absorbed as much energy as Pyron has to my knowledge, and his control over flames IMO won't match Pyron's, a living Cosmic fire elemental. But Pyron's soul has shown resistance against a soul stealer. Thing is, many of Sargeras' powers are not useful against Pyron, and some of which Pyron has the same powers only to a higher level.

And KOS-MOS is an overrated and overhyped piece of shit.

4. Yeah...I admit I jumped the gun on that one.

.......Lol wut? Really?

That's...Well it is kinda sad.

5. If not stopped by Demitri, he WOULD have devoured Makai as well as Earth. He has shown resilience by not only beating Bishamon, doing it effortlessly. He did not even need to attack, he only needed to power up and his energies literally separated Bishamon from his armor, which is bound by body and even soul. So Pyron, in canon, has affected the soul of a fighter, and this was while mortal mind you, not full power. Yeah, I do not think said BFR would affect Pyron or most in LOK for that matter lol.

1. While I do not doubt your words, I would like to know or see where it is said that this is how it happened with Pyron and Earth. I have yes, realised, that there is more to Pyron than just brawns, but as much as there is to Pyron, if we exclude the physical attributes, there is more to Sargeras. Sargeras too has energy manipulation, he also has the ability to create life, objects and such (Assuming that is what you meant by creationism) and suppsively has a degree of cosmical awareness. While I am sure neither one of them are at the level of Pyron's, Sargeras has something Pyron does not. Magic.

Magic in Warcraft is used to a lot of things. The Titans imprisoned the Old Gods. Malygos erased existance. Weak mortals could absorb not only energy, but actual life. Minions far below Sargeras might can not only drain souls, but twist, fiddle and play with them as if they are solid objects. You may think that magic is not that much of a factor against one such as Pyron, but there is a lot that can be done with it. I strongly believe that if anything can bring Pyron down, it is Warcraft magic by a stronger entity such as Sargeras or others in the Pantheon.

2. In matter of fact, he probably can, but I do not imagine he would. Sargeras would never be good with living as second rate and he would settle the score with the one threatening factor in this fight: Pyron. I do not have my doubts that Sargeras would dominate Nosgoth had it not been for Pyron's interfearance. He would probably rule the reaches of Darkstalkers too if given time. Pyron is the factor, and despite all of his talents, this primarly due to his physical attributes: Size, Endurance, Strength, Speed.

3. Pyron may have shown resistance to a soul stealer before, but Sargeras would not only steal his soul. He would try steal the soul, his body, the mind and most likely even the free will. He could of course not do this with a snap of his finger, but it would be done over time. I can of course not assume this fight is on Warcraft terms, but in Warcraft, a soul and mind can be stolen over time. Bit by bit. Piece by piece. It is true that he has never dealt with something Pyron's size, but he has dealt with portions of Pyron's size, which is what he would do here.

4. It depends really. It is the only solid feat we can use and say "This is his durability". Sargeras did walk away from having suffered the portal imploding with him inside it and he has had several cloudy endurance feats, but the Ax swing by Brox is the only one really solid.

5. Not sure what to answer on that one, other than that Sargeras defeated an entire species that devoted all their lives and magic to stealing, manipulating, eating and playing with souls.

Originally posted by Becci
1. While I do not doubt your words, I would like to know or see where it is said that this is how it happened with Pyron and Earth. I have yes, realised, that there is more to Pyron than just brawns, but as much as there is to Pyron, if we exclude the physical attributes, there is more to Sargeras. Sargeras too has energy manipulation, he also has the ability to create life, objects and such (Assuming that is what you meant by creationism) and suppsively has a degree of cosmical awareness. While I am sure neither one of them are at the level of Pyron's, Sargeras has something Pyron does not. Magic.

Magic in Warcraft is used to a lot of things. The Titans imprisoned the Old Gods. Malygos erased existance. Weak mortals could absorb not only energy, but actual life. Minions far below Sargeras might can not only drain souls, but twist, fiddle and play with them as if they are solid objects. You may think that magic is not that much of a factor against one such as Pyron, but there is a lot that can be done with it. I strongly believe that if anything can bring Pyron down, it is Warcraft magic by a stronger entity such as Sargeras or others in the Pantheon.

2. In matter of fact, he probably can, but I do not imagine he would. Sargeras would never be good with living as second rate and he would settle the score with the one threatening factor in this fight: Pyron. I do not have my doubts that Sargeras would dominate Nosgoth had it not been for Pyron's interfearance. He would probably rule the reaches of Darkstalkers too if given time. Pyron is the factor, and despite all of his talents, this primarly due to his physical attributes: Size, Endurance, Strength, Speed.

3. Pyron may have shown resistance to a soul stealer before, but Sargeras would not only steal his soul. He would try steal the soul, his body, the mind and most likely even the free will. He could of course not do this with a snap of his finger, but it would be done over time. I can of course not assume this fight is on Warcraft terms, but in Warcraft, a soul and mind can be stolen over time. Bit by bit. Piece by piece. It is true that he has never dealt with something Pyron's size, but he has dealt with portions of Pyron's size, which is what he would do here.

4. It depends really. It is the only solid feat we can use and say "This is his durability". Sargeras did walk away from having suffered the portal imploding with him inside it and he has had several cloudy endurance feats, but the Ax swing by Brox is the only one really solid.

5. Not sure what to answer on that one, other than that Sargeras defeated an entire species that devoted all their lives and magic to stealing, manipulating, eating and playing with souls. Thank you for answering my post. At first I thought you didn't love me anymore.

1. I actually cannot, there is no Youtube vid for it that I know of, you need to see the vid to actually get it, it shows Pyron above Earth, it shows people on Earth commenting gravitational/whatever changes, then it zooms out and Earth is now Pyron's ring. Pyron's energy manipulation is IMO greater, and Pyron can create matter as well. Pyron has Cosmical Awareness beyond a galactic level, hell, he saw through dimensions and into Makai, even used his telepathy to speak to all of Makai and implanted the desire to fight him, many Makai left it to answer his call.

While I believe that is all true, Pyron can and has done several of those, and some to greater extents(absorbing matter and life), and has done more.

2. IMO no, I believe Pyron's powers such as his matter manipulation would be an even greater threat, not just physical. He also has great versatility with his energy manipulation, a prime example would be his Cosmic Disruption, which causes several explosions to just kinda happen in the enemy's vicinity spontaneously, it is like several teleporting explosions.

3. To even live in Makai you need a strong soul, Pyron is capable of devouring Makai in its entirety. Pyron's mind powers, his telepathy, affected all the creatures of Makai(trillions), I think his mind at least is safe. Pyron is not simply larger than Sargeras, he is larger than anything in Warcraft multiplied by ten.

4. Meh...Pyron doesn't so much have durability feats, he is pure energy, he doesn't have a corporal form unless he wants one, and even as a mortal can let attacks pass through him.

5. Well I wasn't really arguing Pyron would attack Sargeras' soul lol. Only that he has shown some mild soul powers.

Originally posted by Becci
I do not have my doubts that Sargeras would dominate Nosgoth had it not been for Pyron's interfearance. He would probably rule the reaches of Darkstalkers too if given time.

There are many beings who could elminate Sargeras, Elder God alone is both far larger than him as well as untouchable multi reality being who would crush the Titan, hes like a super old God on steroids, but Azimoth and the dimentional beings could BFR sargeras into a random dimension he could not escape from to win the battle. Thats if Kain doesnt just elminate him with ease.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont need to show feats, hes just known, hes not done anything yet as you well know but hes got a mix of previous beings powers that makes him incredible powerful.

He is always that size usually, its his normal size it seems, he can shrink though, but he has no reason in this battle.

Thats besides the point, Malorne is not galactus, as youve said the guy shakes the planet, well Pyron would shatter the planet because his mass would be enormous Gas giant sized, "bro".

Can you show me this info please? him withstanding the sundering explosion?

From all the Warcraft lore stories ive not heard of Sarg being hit by the blast of the sundering, thus please show me.

Yes you do, I need to show you feats concerning Sargeras, then it works the other way around too, This isn't a one way track and saying "he is just known" about a Character that has made a single apperance and has done absolutely nothing in that single apperance that would justify your claim of him to take out Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde and much less Sargeras, then you need to bring more then that.

And?

No he isn't, but it holds a point none the less, size doesn't automaticly equal strength, Archimonde for instance grew in size but showed no increased physical attributes being increased.

Becci already has...

He was inside the Portal that collapsed bringing about the sundering of the world... thus he was hit by the power of the very portal that caused the Sundering and he was unharmed.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Yes you do, I need to show you feats concerning Sargeras, then it works the other way around too, This isn't a one way track and saying "he is just known" about a Character that has made a single apperance and has done absolutely nothing in that single apperance that would justify your claim of him to take out Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde and much less Sargeras, then you need to bring more then that.

And?

No he isn't, but it holds a point none the less, size doesn't automaticly equal strength, Archimonde for instance grew in size but showed no increased physical attributes being increased.

Becci already has...

He was inside the Portal that collapsed bringing about the sundering of the world... thus he was hit by the power of the very portal that caused the Sundering and he was unharmed.

No you need to show me canon powers of Sarg, Feats are nice but not ncessry if you can actually show his canon pwoers. And there is more jusitifaction in his power, since as I said hes a combination of previous beings who together make him so powerful.

You asked if he can be gas giant sized on a whim...my answer is hes naturally that size and has shown to shapeshift, how long it takes him to become tiny i dont know

Size usually does, it means your a much higher mass....thus your blows will land heavier by normal means.

yes she did, and she said quite clearly he was not impacted by the sundering...just the portal closing.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No you need to show me canon powers of Sarg, Feats are nice but not ncessry if you can actually show his canon pwoers. And there is more jusitifaction in his power, since as I said hes a combination of previous beings who together make him so powerful.

You asked if he can be gas giant sized on a whim...my answer is hes naturally that size and has shown to shapeshift, how long it takes him to become tiny i dont know

Size usually does, it means your a much higher mass....thus your blows will land heavier by normal means.

yes she did, and she said quite clearly he was not impacted by the sundering...just the portal closing.

Eh I already have multiply as a matter of fact. There is more weight in a character with no feats then their is in a Character with feats? and how come we capable of using other characters feats and powerlevel to justifies Scion Kain when we cannot use it to justify Sargeras...

And does his strenght etc increase as he grows?

Not always a smaller person can hit harder then a heavier person provided that the smaller person uses his momentum to deliver the punch.

The Portal that closed caused the sundering and Sargeras was right in the middle of the Portal holding it open and taking the full effect of the implosion without damage when the Portal collapsed.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Eh I already have multiply as a matter of fact. There is more weight in a character with no feats then their is in a Character with feats? and how come we capable of using other characters feats and powerlevel to justifies Scion Kain when we cannot use it to justify Sargeras...

And does his strenght etc increase as he grows?

Not always a smaller person can hit harder then a heavier person provided that the smaller person uses his momentum to deliver the punch.

The Portal that closed caused the sundering and Sargeras was right in the middle of the Portal holding it open and taking the full effect of the implosion without damage when the Portal collapsed.

because when I use scion kain i used specific abilities, like an area of control such as energy, wheras calling Sarg powerful just becaue he is above his army doesnt help in a debate.

I dont know, I think it reduces as he shrinks however.

Well Pyron wins both, since his momentum can reach lightspeed anyway...

yes it caused it, but Sarg wasnt hit by the sundering still.

Originally posted by Utrigita
And does his strenght etc increase as he grows?

Not always a smaller person can hit harder then a heavier person provided that the smaller person uses his momentum to deliver the punch. Yeah, only in this case since Pyron actually has some degree of fighting skill and Sargeras has none known, and since Pyron at mortal form is easily class 100, and since he is much much much larger and faster than Sargeras, he WILL hit harder.

There are three things which attribute to strike force.

Strength. Which Pyron takes.

Speed. Which Pyron also takes.

Mass. Which Pyron undeniably takes.

And technique, which Pyron prolly takes as far as H2H is concerned.

So Pyron WILL be hitting harder, and that is just a normal punch, in combat Pyron morphs his body for melee attacks.

Originally posted by Burning thought
There are many beings who could elminate Sargeras, Elder God alone is both far larger than him as well as untouchable multi reality being who would crush the Titan, hes like a super old God on steroids, but Azimoth and the dimentional beings could BFR sargeras into a random dimension he could not escape from to win the battle. Thats if Kain doesnt just elminate him with ease.

How is he supposed to crush Sargeras, when he could not even handle Kain? Sargeras is larger, more endurant, stronger and from what is recorded ability-wise: stronger on a magical level over Kain?

And what makes you so certain that Azimoth and them people could BFR Sargeras? He can cross dimensions like they are doors in a hallway, you know. Not that he has to be in the same dimension to attack them, which we have seen at more than one occasion.

Then we have the Kain matter, that I can not see Kain walking away from. There is more than one way to stop the unstoppable, and while Kain can keep on coming back from the dead, Sargeras could always take the reaver away from him and imprison him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes it caused it, but Sarg wasnt hit by the sundering still.

Actually, Sargeras was more exposed to the sundering than anyone else. The destruction of the world was only a side-effect from the actual blast, which was the implosion of the portal. The portal which Sargeras was trying to crawl out of when it imploded. So while he may not have been present at the sundering, he did take the heavy hit.

Originally posted by Becci
How is he supposed to crush Sargeras, when he could not even handle Kain? Sargeras is larger, more endurant, stronger and from what is recorded ability-wise: stronger on a magical level over Kain?

And what makes you so certain that Azimoth and them people could BFR Sargeras? He can cross dimensions like they are doors in a hallway, you know. Not that he has to be in the same dimension to attack them, which we have seen at more than one occasion.

Then we have the Kain matter, that I can not see Kain walking away from. There is more than one way to stop the unstoppable, and while Kain can keep on coming back from the dead, Sargeras could always take the reaver away from him and imprison him.



Actually, Sargeras was more exposed to the sundering than anyone else. The destruction of the world was only a side-effect from the actual blast, which was the implosion of the portal. The portal which Sargeras was trying to crawl out of when it imploded. So while he may not have been present at the sundering, he did take the heavy hit.

Kain is more difficult to get thats why, not only is Kain immortal to not being able to die for any reason so thats besides the point but Kain unlike Sarg has a near instant power of ripping out the souls of enemies or creating a shield to protect himself that has a well of eternity sized energy source ,himself. Sarg size will be the death of him against pyron. Magical level? what shows sargs magical level to be above kains?

What makes you say he can cross dimensions? in what source does it say this?

Take the reaver from Kain? what a joke....Sarg would do this how before he is atoms? this is Scion kain, his overall manipulative powers would be beyond any in this arena for sure, however even normal Defiance Kain has so many abilities, one of them whether it be soul ripping, time powers etc would mess up Sargeras and drainign Sarg of all his power would be another painful experiance for the Dark titan, which makes a Kain/Pyron team combo near unstoppable, Kain can take away their energy while Pyron can deliver a blow they would unlikely survive.

Can you show me this please? your source?

mmm

Kain kicks em all into the sun

My ass itches. mmm

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain is more difficult to get thats why, not only is Kain immortal to not being able to die for any reason so thats besides the point but Kain unlike Sarg has a near instant power of ripping out the souls of enemies or creating a shield to protect himself that has a well of eternity sized energy source ,himself. Sarg size will be the death of him against pyron. Magical level? what shows sargs magical level to be above kains?

What makes you say he can cross dimensions? in what source does it say this?

Take the reaver from Kain? what a joke....Sarg would do this how before he is atoms? this is Scion kain, his overall manipulative powers would be beyond any in this arena for sure, however even normal Defiance Kain has so many abilities, one of them whether it be soul ripping, time powers etc would mess up Sargeras and drainign Sarg of all his power would be another painful experiance for the Dark titan, which makes a Kain/Pyron team combo near unstoppable, Kain can take away their energy while Pyron can deliver a blow they would unlikely survive.

Can you show me this please? your source?

Before I start, I would just like to let you know that I find you rather hypocritic.


Now: What do you mean, unlike Sargeras? Entities far below Sargeras, has with power granted them by Sargeras, ripped souls out of a body just like that. Heck, we can go down many steps. Arthas ripped out a soul with the blessing of Lich King, who was blessed by Kil'Jaeden, who was blessed by Sargeras. If someone as far down in the foodchain as Arthas could rip out a soul, then imagine Sargeras. Of course, we can not prove he is any better than Arthas at it, so ripping the soul out with a grasp will have to do.

I find it interesting that you compare Kain with the Well of Eternity, since a sorcerer far weaker than Sargeras could destroy the Well despite the limitless essence.


You mean other than the fact that the Titans traveled dimensions rather often? And that Sargeras has an ability known as dimension door? Or that lesser magical entities can travel dimensions in Warcraft? Not only dimensions though, but other realities and timestreams are traveled in Warcraft. If you think Warcraft is nothing but a lot of planets in a universe, think again. There are several dimensions that are often mentioned, and Twisting Nether one of the most common ones. In fact, whenever a person move from Azeroth to Outlands in WoW, they cross a dimension. When Kil'Jaeden arise in the Sunwell Plataeu, he is coming from a seperate dimension. Whenever a druid falls asleep, they visit another dimension. Warlocks constantly manipulate seperate dimensions to bring forth demonic forces and powers. In a single day, Gul'Dan taught average shamans how to open rifts into dimensions. Would you like all of these examples specified to from where they come?


Drain all of Sargeras power? Turn him into atoms? Rip his soul? While I am certain his soul will not be touched, I would like you to show me Kain turning anyone into atoms, or Kain draining all of anyones power that is of Sargeras magnitude. Time manipulation? A timebolt and an areal slow time ability, right?

...Becci, you didn't answer my post...

You like BT better, don't you? cry

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
...Becci, you didn't answer my post...

You like BT better, don't you? cry

Not at all. Quite the contruary. You just bring better points of debate, that require more thinking when it comes to delivering a response. Burning Thought has less good points, which are far easier to respond to. If anything, you should take me not responding as something good I need to think when you bring your points up, while Burning Thought's points are just so .... simple

Originally posted by Becci
Before I start, I would just like to let you know that I find you rather hypocritic.


Now: What do you mean, unlike Sargeras? Entities far belo