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Who wins here?

1.Saber
2.Force
3.All out

Location-Bespin where Vader fought Luke

Saber: Mace, without a doubt. He is the saber master. Vapaad is too fast for vader to defend against, really. Mace 8/10
Force: Vader, also without a doubt. He has shown to be WAY more powerful than mace force wise. Vader 9.5/10
All Out: hard to tell. If Mace can get in close, he may take it, but if Vader gets him through the force, its over. i give it to vader 6/10

1. Sabers - Windu, 10/10.
2. Force - Vader, 8/10.
3. All Out - Windu, 7/10.

Hasn't vader been embarrassed enough?

Well i say he takes the force fight and has a chance in an all out fight if he isn't stupid enough to try to beat mace in a saber duel.

isn't vader stronger then kar vastor

That one's weird. Mace couldn't defeat Kar on his best day, Kar wouldn't stand a chance against Vader, and yet Mace goes ahead and defeats Palpatine.

Third-person narrative + EU-authors who don't read other EU = Inconsistencies.

Sabers: Mace, 10/10
Force: Vader, 10/10
All-Out: Mace, 7/10

Entirely possible either Mace is really selling himself short, Nick is selling Vader really long or Palpatine held back?

Though there are many tidbits to suggest it, no one can prove conclusively that the Emperor held back, especially in terms of lightsaber combat. He might not have capitalized his Force powers to the greatest degree, but Windu's win was a legitimate one.

Originally posted by Faunus
That one's weird. Mace couldn't defeat Kar on his best day, Kar wouldn't stand a chance against Vader, and yet Mace goes ahead and defeats Palpatine.

Third-person narrative + EU-authors who don't read other EU = Inconsistencies.

Sabers: Mace, 10/10
Force: Vader, 10/10
All-Out: Mace, 7/10

you've just complicated it

Question: when was it stated that vastor wouldn't stand a chance against vader? Wasn't he said to have a force potential similar to yoda?

Also, I am not so sure that vader would crush windu with the force. I mean, his displays of force mastery in the clone wars cartoons and in shatterpoint are quite impressive (like holding a hundred of tons of rocks).

Anyway, I say mace takes it, he is definitely superior saberwise, and even if vader surpasses him with the force (which I am not so sure), he would still lose to him all out.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Question: when was it stated that vastor wouldn't stand a chance against vader? Wasn't he said to have a force potential similar to yoda?

It was stated from a very fallible POV of someone who hadn't even had any real directexperience with Vastor, but had Vader's full power pressing in on him.

Meaning, the statement is questionable at best.

Originally posted by Faunus
That one's weird. Mace couldn't defeat Kar on his best day, Kar wouldn't stand a chance against Vader, and yet Mace goes ahead and defeats Palpatine.

Third-person narrative + EU-authors who don't read other EU = Inconsistencies.

Sabers: Mace, 10/10
Force: Vader, 10/10
All-Out: Mace, 7/10

Reread the first fight with Mace and Kar, Mace wasnt striking to kill or disable, only to hurt. He wanted to lose.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Question: when was it stated that vastor wouldn't stand a chance against vader? Wasn't he said to have a force potential similar to yoda?
Nick Rostu says that Vader was much stronger than Vastor in the force. Vastor might have Force potential similar to Yoda, but Vader is the Chosen one- with midichlorians OVER 9000!!!
Originally posted by Darth Angel

Also, I am not so sure that vader would crush windu with the force. I mean, his displays of force mastery in the clone wars cartoons and in shatterpoint are quite impressive (like holding a hundred of tons of rocks).
No one is saying that Mace is weak in the force. The problem is that Darth Vader is said to have become 80% of Darth Friggin Sidious- who is unquestionably stronger than Mace in the force. Anakin as Darth Vader has a lot more knowledge than Mace does. (in the Force)
Originally posted by Darth Angel

Anyway, I say mace takes it, he is definitely superior saberwise, and even if vader surpasses him with the force (which I am not so sure), he would still lose to him all out.
Mace takes sabers. Yes.

Vader does surpass him in the Force. (80% of Sidious IS > Mace by any standard) Vader takes Force.

Mace has shatterpoint and Vapaad, so he would take a close up All out fight, but if Vader 'force snipes' him, he would lose.
All out: Mace 7/10

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Reread the first fight with Mace and Kar, Mace wasnt striking to kill or disable, only to hurt. He wanted to lose.

I suggest you read Mace's words after their first fight. It's more complicated then you let on. Depa says that Mace didn't let Vastor win. He did want to lose in way but he knew he couldn't win. And then we have the statement made during their final confrontation which I'll post shortly. But I'll post the 1st statement anyway for those who haven't seen it.

FROM THE PRIVATE JOURNALS OF MACE WINDU

..................

It dawned on me then that Nick was proud of himself. Proud of what we had done. It may have been an unfamiliar feeling for him: that peculiarly delicious pride that comes from having taken a terrible risk to do something truly admirable. Of overcoming the instinct of self-preservation: of fighting our fears and winning.

It is the pride of discovering that one is not merely a bundle of reflexes and conditioned responses; that instead one is a thinking being, who can choose the right over the easy, and justice over safety. The pride Nick took in this made me proud of him, too-though of course I could not tell him so. It would only have embarrassed him, and made him regret speaking at all.

I hope I never forget the fierce conviction on his face as he helped me climb the extended leg of the ankkox and clambered up onto its dorsal shell. "Just because Kar beat you like a rented gong doesn't mean he was right. Just because he won doesn't mean you were wrong to challenge him. I can't believe you'd ever say those things."

His answer came from within the curtained darkness of the howdah at the top of the curved shell.

"If you spend much time around us, Nick, you will learn..." Depa's voice was strong and clear and as sane and gentle as it has always been in my heart. "You will learn that Jedi do not always tell the truth."

Nick stopped, suddenly scowling as though he found himself unexpectedly deep in thought. "Don't always-hey..." he muttered suspiciously. "Hey, wait one second here-"

She pulled back the curtain once more, and pushed open the small swing gate in the rail. "Come on in. You look like you might want to lie down."

"I might," I admitted. "This hasn't been my best couple of days."

She took my hand to steady me as I stepped into the howdah, and she made room for me on the chaise. "I have to hand it to you, Mace," she said with a softly ironic smile. "You still take a beating as well as any man in the galaxy."

Nick's eyes bulged as though his head might explode. "I knew it!" He shook a fiercely triumphant fist in my face. "I knew it. I knew you could take him!"

I told him to keep it down, because Vastor and the Akk Guards were still moving through the trees nearby, and I had no idea how sharp Vastor's ears might be. I didn't tell him to shut up altogether because it wouldn't have done any good.

"I've got you figured. You hear me? I've got your Jedi butt scanned to the twelfth decimal point! I shoulda known you were gonna dive when you started in on Kar like that-you were spinning him up to make the confrontation more personal, like. The more you insulted him, the less he was gonna worry about taking anything out on me. And you kept on taunting him so that booting your Jedi can into next week felt so good that he basically forgave you for letting those Balawai go!"

I told him he was half wrong.

"Which half?"

Depa answered for me. "The part about letting Kar win."

She knows me so well.

"You mean he really beat you?" Nick couldn't seem to believe it. "He really, really beat you?"

"We share a bond in the Force now, Nick. Did it,seem like I threw the fight?"

He shook his head. "It felt like you were a smazzo drummer's trap skin."

"As you said earlier: Vastor is a difficult man to lie to. He would have known if I was holding back. Then the beating would have been much worse, and he might very well have killed me. What I did was pick a fight I knew I couldn't win."

"Couldn't?"

"Vastor is... very powerful. Half my age and twice my size. Training and experience can compensate only up to a point. And he is naturally ferocious in a way that no Jedi can duplicate."

"You're telling me you twisted his nose like that, knowing he was gonna beat you so bad your whole family would bleed?"

I shrugged." I didn't have to win. All I had to do was fight."

.

And for those who don't have shatterpoint here is the statement right before their final fight.

Sleep when you're dead, Vaster snarled, and leaped.

Ultrachrome flashed. Mace could have met him, blade to shields, but instead he slipped aside.

He had no intention of fighting this man. Not here and now. Not anywhere. Not ever.

Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade. Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day, and this day was far from his best: he was exhausted, badly wounded, and heartsick.

But the fact that his lightsaber couldn't hurt those shields didn't make them invulnerable.

DBZ geek too I see? lol. Anyway, nick rostu was talking about anakin's force potential? But that's not real a problem, I mean anakin's potential is twice from sidious' one, it's obviously that he would be much stronger then sidious, yoda or vastor. However, the mechanical darth vader is not the same as a full potential anakin skywalker. Besides, shatterpoint stated his potential as close to yoda's one, so I am not seeing why shouldn't I use that same quote.



Actually I don't agree with you, because you are basicly suggesting that mace windu is much less then 80% of sidious. So, how good was mace compared to sidious, or in other words, how much less midichlorians mace had comparing to sidious? Was he 70% from sidious? 60%? 50%? Personally I think that's to much of a difference. I mean, vader is 80% from sidious and he knows sidious would own him with the force. If mace would be even weaker then that then sidious would have own his ass with the force during their fight.



Fair enough. However, I would like to point out that in my opinion, in a lightsaber fight the force only matters if one of the duelists is much superior to the other, which I don't think it's the case even if vader is superior to mace. See kasim vs bane for example, kasim could protect himself from bane's force attack (superior dueling skills vs superior force power) and only died because the temple collapsed. And he also teached his students how to protect his lightsaber from TK, so unless the power gap was significant, I believe that the better duelist would come out as victory.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I suggest you read Mace's words after their first fight. Depa says that Mace didn't let Vastor win. He did want to lose in way but he knew he couldn't win. And then we have the statement made during their final confrontation which I'll post shortly. But I'll post the 1st statement anyway for those who haven't seen it.

FROM THE PRIVATE JOURNALS OF MACE WINDU

..................

It dawned on me then that Nick was proud of himself. Proud of what we had done. It may have been an unfamiliar feeling for him: that peculiarly delicious pride that comes from having taken a terrible risk to do something truly admirable. Of overcoming the instinct of self-preservation: of fighting our fears and winning.

It is the pride of discovering that one is not merely a bundle of reflexes and conditioned responses; that instead one is a thinking being, who can choose the right over the easy, and justice over safety. The pride Nick took in this made me proud of him, too-though of course I could not tell him so. It would only have embarrassed him, and made him regret speaking at all.

I hope I never forget the fierce conviction on his face as he helped me climb the extended leg of the ankkox and clambered up onto its dorsal shell. "Just because Kar beat you like a rented gong doesn't mean he was right. Just because he won doesn't mean you were wrong to challenge him. I can't believe you'd ever say those things."

His answer came from within the curtained darkness of the howdah at the top of the curved shell.

"If you spend much time around us, Nick, you will learn..." Depa's voice was strong and clear and as sane and gentle as it has always been in my heart. "You will learn that Jedi do not always tell the truth."

Nick stopped, suddenly scowling as though he found himself unexpectedly deep in thought. "Don't always-hey..." he muttered suspiciously. "Hey, wait one second here-"

She pulled back the curtain once more, and pushed open the small swing gate in the rail. "Come on in. You look like you might want to lie down."

"I might," I admitted. "This hasn't been my best couple of days."

She took my hand to steady me as I stepped into the howdah, and she made room for me on the chaise. "I have to hand it to you, Mace," she said with a softly ironic smile. "You still take a beating as well as any man in the galaxy."

Nick's eyes bulged as though his head might explode. "I knew it!" He shook a fiercely triumphant fist in my face. "I knew it. I knew you could take him!"

I told him to keep it down, because Vastor and the Akk Guards were still moving through the trees nearby, and I had no idea how sharp Vastor's ears might be. I didn't tell him to shut up altogether because it wouldn't have done any good.

"I've got you figured. You hear me? I've got your Jedi butt scanned to the twelfth decimal point! I shoulda known you were gonna dive when you started in on Kar like that-you were spinning him up to make the confrontation more personal, like. The more you insulted him, the less he was gonna worry about taking anything out on me. And you kept on taunting him so that booting your Jedi can into next week felt so good that he basically forgave you for letting those Balawai go!"

I told him he was half wrong.

"Which half?"

Depa answered for me. "The part about letting Kar win."

She knows me so well.

"You mean he really beat you?" Nick couldn't seem to believe it. "He really, really beat you?"

"We share a bond in the Force now, Nick. Did it,seem like I threw the fight?"

He shook his head. "It felt like you were a smazzo drummer's trap skin."

"As you said earlier: Vastor is a difficult man to lie to. He would have known if I was holding back. Then the beating would have been much worse, and he might very well have killed me. What I did was pick a fight I knew I couldn't win."

"Couldn't?"

"Vastor is... very powerful. Half my age and twice my size. Training and experience can compensate only up to a point. And he is naturally ferocious in a way that no Jedi can duplicate."

"You're telling me you twisted his nose like that, knowing he was gonna beat you so bad your whole family would bleed?"

I shrugged." I didn't have to win. All I had to do was fight."

.


Yea, ive read it, but it seems to go against everything that happens in the first fight. Mace not striking to kill or disable when he very well could have, then letting kar run away and get to his feet.

So Vader is -at least- 95% of ROTS Sidious? Then Sidious only grew like 15% in power by ROTJ. If he grew 20% or more, Vader would be equal with him in ROTS. I'm not sure Lucas had fans comparing stats in mind when he said that. srug

In some context, you could just take it as 80 percent of ROTS Palpatine.

no he was talking about the OT when he sed Vader is 80% of Palpatine. So we can safely assume hed be a good 90% of ROTS Palpatine.

and Lucas knows fans analyse everything he says. Lol.. but he doesnt care about that.. hes just trying to tell a story. and with that 80% statement he was trying to say that even though Vader is VERY Powerful, he will most likely never be as Powerful as Sidious, due to his injuries. But Luke Most Likely still would surpass the Emporer in Power.

vader
vader
vader

Originally posted by Enyalus
It was stated from a very fallible POV of someone who hadn't even had any real directexperience with Vastor, but had Vader's full power pressing in on him.

Meaning, the statement is questionable at best.

You are correct that Nick is fallible but, it did say that even Nick's weak force connection could feel Vader was stronger. I don't think he was saying it just because Vader was torturing him.

Originally posted by one above you
vader
vader
vader You freaking kidding me?

Originally posted by Darth Angel
DBZ geek too I see? lol. Anyway, nick rostu was talking about anakin's force potential? But that's not real a problem, I mean anakin's potential is twice from sidious' one, it's obviously that he would be much stronger then sidious, yoda or vastor. However, the mechanical darth vader is not the same as a full potential anakin skywalker. Besides, shatterpoint stated his potential as close to yoda's one, so I am not seeing why shouldn't I use that same quote.

More like an Encyclopedia Dramatica fiend. I thought that Rostu was talking about fully suited Vader, but I could be mistaken. I just PM'd Gideon for the source. If he was speaking about the suit, it would show that Vader retained a good amount of his power, and that in either form he would be able to beat Kar Vastor. If (suit) Vader > Kar Vastor and Kar vastor is similar to Yoda, then that means that Anakin didn't lose very much of his potential, or that it was originally FAR beyond that of Yoda.
Mostly, I'm trying to say that IN SUIT VADER would still be able to overpower most of the Force users in the Mythos- because he still has Force potential beyond that of powerhouses like Yoda, Kar Vastor and Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Angel

Actually I don't agree with you, because you are basicly suggesting that mace windu is much less then 80% of sidious. So, how good was mace compared to sidious, or in other words, how much less midichlorians mace had comparing to sidious? Was he 70% from sidious? 60%? 50%? Personally I think that's to much of a difference. I mean, vader is 80% from sidious and he knows sidious would own him with the force. If mace would be even weaker then that then sidious would have own his ass with the force during their fight.
Here we get into the problem of Force potential versus Force power. Vader had honed his power with knowledge and meditation, unlocking a lot more of his potential, allowing him to use it more effectively.

As for Sidious owning Mace with the force during their duel: HE DID! I know I'm not the only one who remembers Windu getting blasted off of the balcony with Force lightning. I got the feeling that Palpatine was holding back during the initial lightning attack, trying to turn Anakin. Mace defeated him with sabers, yes, but that was part of Sidious' strategy to turn Anakin- he needed to be on his ass when he came in, but not dead. He did his best with a lightsaber, but couldn't best Mace. Then, when he was ready, he did pwn Windu with the Force.

Originally posted by Darth Angel

Fair enough. However, I would like to point out that in my opinion, in a lightsaber fight the force only matters if one of the duelists is much superior to the other, which I don't think it's the case even if vader is superior to mace. See kasim vs bane for example, kasim could protect himself from bane's force attack (superior dueling skills vs superior force power) and only died because the temple collapsed. And he also teached his students how to protect his lightsaber from TK, so unless the power gap was significant, I believe that the better duelist would come out as victory.

I don't disagree. The Force is only decisive in duels with one (or two) extremely high end users: Yoda and Sidious is the most noteworthy example; at some point lightsaber skill has a limit, and the Force is the only battleground where a decision can be made. This happens when the two combatants are otherwise equal: Yoda is far superior to Dooku, so the Sith wouldn't risk a full confrontation. (just my interpretation)

Originally posted by Jbill311


No it is clear that Nick was talking of Vader (suited)

Hmm, fair enough. However I still think that a narrator's statement (or windu's statement perhaps, since he was the narrator most of the book) stating vastor's potential as similar to yoda's with more credibility then nick's one about vader when he was being tortured by him.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Hmm, fair enough. However I still think that a narrator's statement (or windu's statement perhaps, since he was the narrator most of the book) stating vastor's potential as similar to yoda's with more credibility then nick's one about vader when he was being tortured by him.

BTW it was Windu's statement . Like i said it was not that Nick said it just because he had never been so owned, he felt it through the force (he is a weak force sensitive) while he never felt that way about Kar. I am not sure that Mace wa talking about potential he said that Kar's power is on the scale of yoda but like i said am not sure.