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rules of thread:
No noobaris
No fanboyism towards galen, only towards revan.
Take it seriously, but don't be bastards/flamers towards each other during the debate.

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

Both are at the crest of their power.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
rules of thread:
No noobaris
No fanboyism towards galen, only towards revan.
Take it seriously, but don't be bastards/flamers towards each other during the debate.

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

Both are at the crest of their power.

Hey man if your going to allow Revan fanboyisim you should at least allow Galen fanboysisim I mean fair is fair right?

Oh and Galen wipes the floor with Revan; that is my statement of opinion.

I was wondering about this match up the whole time I played the game I think its pretty close both have great power with the force Starkiller probably has more power but Revan most likely has more control and knowledge.

In saber I am leaning towards Starkiller because he has some feats but it will in no way be a curb stomp.

All out I cant really say I probably could come up with an answer once I read TFU novel but until then I cant decide on a definitive answer.

What happened to the 'no unknown' rule?

it got lost back there. didn't you get the memo?

Okay.

1. Sabers, Galen - 6/10.
2. Force, Revan - 9/10.
3. All Out, Revan - 7/10.

For no apparent reason.

mainly because revan has awesome force powers, all galen has is tk and lightning. Nothing special, they just ramped it way up for gameplay mechanics.

I'm glad someone understands that. Even if it is coming from you.

what do you mean "coming from me"?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Nothing special, they just ramped it way up for gameplay mechanics.

Though there's no way to tell how ramped up, so it hardly matters.

what force powers can you prove Revan has? (hate to be the devil's advocate here, but it CONTINUES to be a good point)

he has... um... the thought bomb... and... stuff. and... a lot of sith holocrons that give him cool stuff... ya. and a cooler outfit. Hes in a better game IMO.

and that's in addition to tk and lightning.

Originally posted by truejedi
what force powers can you prove Revan has? (hate to be the devil's advocate here, but it CONTINUES to be a good point)

Force Lightning Storm.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Force Lightning Storm.

was that in the holocron bane found? I definitly concede the thought bomb, but then again, at the time of his death, Lord Kaan could also be credited with having a thought bomb.
and tk? where can we know that he uses tk?

Revan wins. Why, because I say so.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Revan wins. Why, because I say so.
Well obviously

Originally posted by truejedi
was that in the holocron bane found? I definitly concede the thought bomb, but then again, at the time of his death, Lord Kaan could also be credited with having a thought bomb.
and tk? where can we know that he uses tk?

What he found in Revan's holocron in addition to the Thought Bomb was Force Storm (climate version).

Ok, now seriously, it's a tough fight. About saber skills, it's hard to say about revan, however I think it's safe to assume he was the best of his time.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k52/kamhal_2006/DarthMalakRevelation.jpg

I think this is proof enough to say that revan's skills with the lightsaber were superior to malak's ones and probably the best of his time as well. As for galen's lightsaber skills, he was at least on the level from vader, so that's something. When it comes to the force contend, both have great feats as well, both with lightning (galen's lightning seems quite strong, and revan's force storm was able to even kill young rancors acording to the one) and TK (galen stopping the star destroyer and revan killing a man with force choke in less then 3 seconds).

I don't, personally I see galen's force power as probably even higher then revan's one, however I think revan's force knowledge is higher. As for saber skills, I think they shouldn't be that far from each other. I think in the end it's all but a fight from coolness lol.

I say 50/50 perhaps.

Galen's Force Lightning feats involved getting it throw back by Rahm Kota and not being able to injure the Emperor at all with it. His lightning blows.

For anyone saying, "LOLZ BUT TEH STORMTOPERS EN!" Dooku managed to char/disintegrate a large number of clone troopers at once with his Force Lightning. Yet, his Lightning gets blocked by AOTC Obi-Wan's saber and casually deflected back by Yoda.

Killing expendible troops who have no defense against it doesn't equal powerful Force Lightning.

Revan has him by a mile in Force Knowledge (and probably thereby Force Mastery).

I'd say the saber skills are about equal, as is their raw power.

Revan has the leg up here.

Galen is Darth Vader's apprentice. He is quite powerful in the force, and at lightsaber combat, but not good enough.

Revan however is not only quite powerful in the force, and exelent at lightsaber combat, but he also is an amazing stratigist, when even in a 1 on 1 force lightsaber duel, tips the scales in his favor.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
he has... um... the thought bomb... and... stuff. and... a lot of sith holocrons that give him cool stuff... ya. and a cooler outfit. Hes in a better game IMO.

Though I hate to cast a mark against a revan supporter, the thought bomb would be foolish to use in 1 on 1 combat. It can really only be used in the way Bane did.

Here's a list of Revan's abilities.

http://starwars.neoseeker.com/wiki/KotOR_Force_Powers

As for Starkiller

Lightning
Push
Grip
Repulse
Lightsaber throw
Lightning shield

So, there is no real question the winner is:

http://forums.filefront.com/attachments/death-star/59681d1197132551-darth-revan-versus-darth-vader-revan_s_return_by_tansy9.jpg

Originally posted by Kapton JAC
Revan has the leg up here.

Galen is Darth Vader's apprentice. He is quite powerful in the force, and at lightsaber combat, but not good enough.

Revan however is not only quite powerful in the force, and exelent at lightsaber combat, but he also is an amazing stratigist, when even in a 1 on 1 force lightsaber duel, tips the scales in his favor.



Though I hate to cast a mark against a revan supporter, the thought bomb would be foolish to use in 1 on 1 combat. It can really only be used in the way Bane did.

Here's a list of Revan's abilities.

http://starwars.neoseeker.com/wiki/KotOR_Force_Powers

As for Starkiller

Lightning
Push
Grip
Repulse
Lightsaber throw
Lightning shield

So, there is no real question the winner is:

http://forums.filefront.com/attachments/death-star/59681d1197132551-darth-revan-versus-darth-vader-revan_s_return_by_tansy9.jpg That was abhorred logic. Could you not even detect that Knightfall was not being serious?

Just how are you determing that Galen's abilities are not enough?

Revan never canonically performed all of of those abilities your link mentioned either.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Revan never canonically performed all of of those abilities your link mentioned either.

i agree. This is ridiculous the way that it is assumed that because the force power exists, that Revan had them all. They are CHOICES. Very logically, the entire game could be played without ONE force ability.

could be, but wasn't. you could also be a gay guy who fails at video games and get ownt in the first mission in tfu. That doesnt mean that starkiller is a gay weakling.

Revan has some good saber abilities, including jar kai, and his large collection of sith holocrons must mean that he knows alot of unique stuff, not that he only knows one force power. I mean, come on. TK and Lightning is pretty basic stuff, known to pretty much every sith adept in the galaxy. The question is, is the ability at which star killer showed them vamped up way past believability for game play mechanics?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
could be, but wasn't. you could also be a gay guy who fails at video games and get ownt in the first mission in tfu. That doesnt mean that starkiller is a gay weakling.

Revan has some good saber abilities, including jar kai, and his large collection of sith holocrons must mean that he knows alot of unique stuff, not that he only knows one force power. I mean, come on. TK and Lightning is pretty basic stuff, known to pretty much every sith adept in the galaxy. The question is, is the ability at which star killer showed them vamped up way past believability for game play mechanics?

i agree with your first paragraph, and i agree with most of the whole post. My point is this: there is almost no single ability that you can look at Revan and say "he was exceptional at this" because you just don't know. There is also no less-common ability that is featured in KOTOR, that you can point out for sure that Revan knew.

agreed. You can't pick out one of his powers and say "OMG, he is the pwnzrz @ that." But it is relatively safe to assume that somewhere along the way to ultimate sith lord of the galaxy, all the way collecting holocrons from the dead sith, he learned a few more tricks other than force lightning and push, and after that, along the way from soldier to jedi savior of the galaxy he learned some extra powers. Its a moot point to say that he could have only known one power because thats the way you could have played the game. No. Lets not go there.

Galen has way more raw power than Revan. Revan may have knew more unique force techniques, but most wouldn't help him in a fight. The thought bomb for example required more than one sith lord, and took a lot of time and concentration. So Galen wins this.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So Revan wins this. I don't know how this goes with the continuum of the rest of your fallacious attempt at a statement, but you are correct. Revan wins this.

Oh i meant Galen wins this.

Stupid me!!

I fixed it though.

Revan's knowledge and mastery of the Force definitely eclipses that of Galen, but the reverse is probably true of their respective raw power. If we knew more about Revan perhaps a decision could be made, but he's too much of an unknown at the moment.

It'd be awsesome if Revan could just be put on hold as a reference and gauge of power until more is told about him.

Originally posted by truejedi
i agree with your first paragraph, and i agree with most of the whole post. My point is this: there is almost no single ability that you can look at Revan and say "he was exceptional at this" because you just don't know. There is also no less-common ability that is featured in KOTOR, that you can point out for sure that Revan knew.
Except force choke which he performed in a cutscene, on a Republic officer lol

About his force reserves we know that Vrook said something like "the force flows through you as we have never seen before", something like this, and adjunta pall was actually blinded by the sheer power from revan. That's something too I say.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
About his force reserves we know that Vrook said something like "the force flows through you as we have never seen before", something like this, and adjunta pall was actually blinded by the sheer power from revan. That's something too I say. Yeah, Revan was amazing. But then Bane, Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, Gethzerion, Mace, Anakin, Galen, Luke and Jacen were all born. Seems kinda watered down in ubernes now.

Well, I could contest some of these names, but I won't since I never said revan was the best, in fact if you go back and read my post you notice I said that I think galen's force reserves were greater then revan's ones.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Well, I could contest some of these names, but I won't since I never said revan was the best, in fact if you go back and read my post you notice I said that I think galen's force reserves were greater then revan's ones.

I wish that you would. I'm curious to know which ones you think don't make the cut.

Dooku, Gethzerion, and Mace, for starters.

mace doesnt win in force mastery, but if sabers count... oh he pwnz revan.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
mace doesnt win in force mastery, but if sabers count... oh he pwnz revan.

Darth Angel brought up Revan's sheer power with the Force. TG listed names. I assumed he was referring to their power in the Force. And Mace is good there. Just, not Revanesque in my opinion.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Darth Angel brought up Revan's sheer power with the Force. TG listed names. I assumed he was referring to their power in the Force. And Mace is good there. Just, not Revanesque in my opinion.

I would agree that Mace < Revan in the Force. In sabers, he pwnzors the crap out of him.

Originally posted by Jbill311
I would agree that Mace < Revan in the Force. In sabers, he pwnzors the crap out of him.

I'd say he wins, yeah. Until I get solid proof of Revan's saber abilities, I'm not going to go so far as to say Mace can 'pwnzors' him though.

Fair enough, but I was counting on the superconducting loop to engage, leaving time for Shatterpoint to work. (basic Mace fanboy logic)

Exactly. Revan is sort of an unknown. We don't have solid evidence about him in the sabers department.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Fair enough, but I was counting on the superconducting loop to engage, leaving time for Shatterpoint to work. (basic Mace fanboy logic)

Well, it was never specified that we were using Darth Revan.

Plus, what exactly is his superconducting loop going to copy? Sidious had superspeed on his side. What's Mace going to get from Revan?

Super Fanboy-Magnetism.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Well, it was never specified that we were using Darth Revan.

Plus, what exactly is his superconducting loop going to copy? Sidious

Copy?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Galen's Force Lightning feats involved getting it throw back by Rahm Kota and not being able to injure the Emperor at all with it. His lightning blows.
And he couldn't really kill vader with it.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Copy?

Vaapad's nature allowed Mace to copy/replicate/duplicate Sidious' natural speed advantage. Without Vaapad, Mace is much slower than Sidious.

What's Mace going to replicate of Revan's? (We don't know because he's an unknown is the correct answer.)

But maybe Jbill311 was referring to the superconducting loop as holding off Revan's lightning and throwing it back at him.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
And he couldn't really kill vader with it.

Score one for the Big S.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Vaapad's nature allowed Mace to copy/replicate/duplicate Sidious' natural speed advantage. Without Vaapad, Mace is much slower than Sidious.

What's Mace going to replicate of Revan's? (We don't know because he's an unknown is the correct answer.)

But maybe Jbill311 was referring to the superconducting loop as holding off Revan's lightning and throwing it back at him.

Yes, I really wasn't sure what you were referring to there. But Vaapad's effect works for all dark siders, not just Sidious. The fact that Mace would use it efficiently against Revan remains.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Vaapad's nature allowed Mace to copy/replicate/duplicate Sidious' natural speed advantage. Without Vaapad, Mace is much slower than Sidious.

What's Mace going to replicate of Revan's? (We don't know because he's an unknown is the correct answer.)

But maybe Jbill311 was referring to the superconducting loop as holding off Revan's lightning and throwing it back at him.

Something about that sentence just seems wrong, the idea that Mace Window is much slower that Palps just seems weird, but then hey Palps is a god so I suppose it's cool.

You think I like admitting it? I loathe that pedophilic bastard.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You think I like admitting it? I loathe that pedophilic bastard.

Ah ha! Someone else who realizes that Palps is a chimo.

I actually laughed really hard the first time I saw his fight vs. Yoda.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Score one for the Big S. .... you make it sound like I'm stupid and retarted lol.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Darth Angel brought up Revan's sheer power with the Force. TG listed names. I assumed he was referring to their power in the Force. And Mace is good there. Just, not Revanesque in my opinion. Silly rabbit. Opinions on ambiguous characters are for kids.

What has Revan done with the force dwarfs Mace. Mace has shown more powerful feats with the force than Revan.

Exactly. Someone made the point recently that just because the option was there in the game, doesn't mean Revan employed its use. And if he did, there's not a single determinant to gauge how powerful it was or how skilled he was using it. There are too many possibilites still at large to give Revan a fair and accurate ranking.

TG, I can't believe you just agreed with Sidious66. Your coolness rating has been lowered exponentially.

Anywho, I've got proof that Revan > Mace in power.

Revan is described as 'the heart of the Force.' Guess where else that quote comes into play at? When Luke 'anchors' himself in the 'heart of the Force' so deeply that not even a supermassive black hole would be able to move him.

Supermassive black hole > Mace.

Revan > Supermassive black hole. Ergo,

Revan > Mace.

As usual, Enyalus, your logic is outstanding. Your argument is un-refutable.

Enyalus' post made me remember that I should be listening Muse right now lol.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
As usual, Enyalus, your logic is outstanding. Your argument is un-refutable.

I'm glad someone besides Faunus understands the truth of my greatness.

Originally posted by truejedi
i agree. This is ridiculous the way that it is assumed that because the force power exists, that Revan had them all. They are CHOICES. Very logically, the entire game could be played without ONE force ability.

True, Revan may not have had ALL of them, but do we have a canical resourse to tell which ones he did have? no. It would, however, be logical to assume that he did have a large Majority of them.

Either way, even with the basest force powers, as great a strategist as Revan was, he could still beat Starkiller.

And if you assume that Revan had base forcepowers, you have to assume that Starkiller had the weakest level of his force powers, since there is NO cannical basis with which to judge either character's force abilities.

Originally posted by Enyalus
TG, I can't believe you just agreed with Sidious66. Your coolness rating has been lowered exponentially.

Anywho, I've got proof that Revan > Mace in power.

Revan is described as 'the heart of the Force.' Guess where else that quote comes into play at? When Luke 'anchors' himself in the 'heart of the Force' so deeply that not even a supermassive black hole would be able to move him.

Supermassive black hole > Mace.

Revan > Supermassive black hole. Ergo,

Revan > Mace.

Wrong! Kreia said looking at him was LIKE looking in the heart of the force, not that he was the heart of the force. Still doesn't prove he was more powerful than Mace. Kreia could have said the same thing about Mace.

And I think you need to understand what irony means lol

Some people really do use that statement as an arguement.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'm glad someone besides Faunus understands the truth of my greatness.

Your greatness is great.

Yes, I'm Captain Obvious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Wrong! Kreia said looking at him was LIKE looking in the heart of the force, not that he was the heart of the force. Still doesn't prove he was more powerful than Mace. Kreia could have said the same thing about Mace.


MMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm. Unrecognized Irony.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Some people really do use that statement as an arguement.

You strike me as the type who seems to think that "new" characters are better than older ones or that by aggrandizing the prowess of everyone that Palpatine has fought, hated, feared, debated with, or looked at, it will in turn reflect upon him.

Either thought is retarded. While we can't prove that Revan is more powerful than Mace, it can certainly be inferred. Not that it matters, since no one is arguing that he can defeat Revan in a lightsaber duel anyway.

For a change: Gideon, in the game, we see Marek humiliating Vader at the very end of their duel. Does the novel somehow contradict the way their duel turned out?

Originally posted by Gideon
You strike me as the type who seems to think that "new" characters are better than older ones or that by aggrandizing the prowess of everyone that Palpatine has fought, hated, feared, debated with, or looked at, it will in turn reflect upon him.

Either thought is retarded. While we can't prove that Revan is more powerful than Mace, it can certainly be inferred. Not that it matters, since no one is arguing that he can defeat Revan in a lightsaber duel anyway.

I never said Mace was more powerful than Revan. I said Mace has shown more powerful feats with the force. Isn't that how a debate like these are solved, by comparing their feats? Which Revan has not proved as many. I would say the same thing whether he fought Palpatine or not.

Originally posted by Kapton JAC
True, Revan may not have had ALL of them, but do we have a canical resourse to tell which ones he did have? no. It would, however, be logical to assume that he did have a large Majority of them.

Either way, even with the basest force powers, as great a strategist as Revan was, he could still beat Starkiller.

And if you assume that Revan had base forcepowers, you have to assume that Starkiller had the weakest level of his force powers, since there is NO cannical basis with which to judge either character's force abilities.
Right, except toppling a skyhook with the force, pwning AT-STs with the Force (Yup its canon, its scripted.) Oh right, and electrocuting a Saarlac with Force Lightning which appeared far more powerful than even Revan's force storm. Ah, and there are alot of canonical bases for Starkillers skill like Starkiller>Vader, Starkiller>Shaak Ti...shall I go on.
I mean we have no clue how powerful Revan was, but do not confuse the two. I believe that the scripted final in the battles hold a great degree of canon. Now obviously the way how he destroyed Tie Fighters, or killed soldiers, or the number of each he destroyed cannot be used for his argument, but he still has a remarkable number of feats. Oh, right, and the only thing we have seen Revan do in canon in terms of Force powers, is use Force Choke. Hopefully the KOTOR comics will change this but until I see canon proof that Revan has this slew of Force powers. Galen Marek>Revan

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I believe that the scripted final in the battles hold a great degree of canon. Yet the comics depicted something different entirely...

^These are the same comics that make Kazdan Paratus a non-factor. Oh, and it contradicts the Game and the Novel. Cutscenes+Novel>Comic.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
^These are the same comics that make Kazdan Paratus a non-factor. Oh, and it contradicts the Game and the Novel. Cutscenes+Novel>Comic. So does the novel > the game or the game > the novel?

We never see SK throwing a shield generator at vader, yet in the comic, it is stated he did.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Right, except toppling a skyhook with the force, pwning AT-STs with the Force (Yup its canon, its scripted.) Oh right, and electrocuting a Saarlac with Force Lightning which appeared far more powerful than even Revan's force storm. Ah, and there are alot of canonical bases for Starkillers skill like Starkiller>Vader, Starkiller>Shaak Ti...shall I go on.
I mean we have no clue how powerful Revan was, but do not confuse the two. I believe that the scripted final in the battles hold a great degree of canon. Now obviously the way how he destroyed Tie Fighters, or killed soldiers, or the number of each he destroyed cannot be used for his argument, but he still has a remarkable number of feats. Oh, right, and the only thing we have seen Revan do in canon in terms of Force powers, is use Force Choke. Hopefully the KOTOR comics will change this but until I see canon proof that Revan has this slew of Force powers. Galen Marek>Revan

Let's see here To take down the Skyhook all he did was pull out a few mooring pins.

Surely you remember the parts where he cut an AT-ST in half with one slash of his lightsaber, which are similarly scripted... but, unless he could somehow extend his Lightsaber's blade... That is impossible. Simply a game-play mechanic.

So, The programmers got carried away drawing lightning bolts.

Starkiller > Vader, Starkiller > Shaak Ti.
Revan > Bandon, Revan > Krayt Dragon, Revan > Malak

I still see Revan > Galen Marek

Originally posted by Kapton JAC
Let's see here To take down the Skyhook all he did was pull out a few mooring pins.

Surely you remember the parts where he cut an AT-ST in half with one slash of his lightsaber, which are similarly scripted... but, unless he could somehow extend his Lightsaber's blade... That is impossible. Simply a game-play mechanic.

So, The programmers got carried away drawing lightning bolts.

Starkiller > Vader, Starkiller > Shaak Ti.
Revan > Bandon, Revan > Krayt Dragon, Revan > Malak

I still see Revan > Galen Marek
PROOF? please opinion and theories DO NOT COUNT, Galen Marek>Revan in terms of CANONICAL things he has displayed. Now Revan>Krayt Dragon, No he used bombs to take it down, how does that count for anything, you wanna use gameplay, if you walk into thje Krayt Dragon Cave you immediately die. And whether you think its impossible for him to extend his blade is irrelevant. It is canon and, and some lightsabers can extend BTW, it is possible. We do not know how powerful Malak was, or Bandon for that matter so to say one Unknown> another Unknown, is going to get us no were. Prove to me that Galen cannot thrash Revan with the force as he did to Vader, prove to me that he won't electrocute the living god out of him as he did to Shaak Ti. Prove that Revan>Galen Marek. The comic also depicts the explosion as being kilometers wide, this is impossible unless the Emperor can survive the vaccum of space. And the comic never says he threw a Shield generator at him I Have The Comic on my laptop.

@ JAC

If you want to use gameplay, vader can destroy jabbas entire palace with the force in empire at war, but does that mean he > revan? Hell no.

Gameplay mechanics are not canon.

EDIT:Whoops re read ur post, you weren't attacking me srry bout that Funny we're on the same side

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
PROOF? please opinion and theories DO NOT COUNT, Galen Marek>Revan in terms of CANONICAL things he has displayed. Now Revan>Krayt Dragon, No he used bombs to take it down, how does that count for anything, you wanna use gameplay, if you walk into thje Krayt Dragon Cave you immediately die. And whether you think its impossible for him to extend his blade is irrelevant. It is canon and, and some lightsabers can extend BTW, it is possible. We do not know how powerful Malak was, or Bandon for that matter so to say one Unknown> another Unknown, is going to get us no were. Prove to me that Galen cannot thrash Revan with the force as he did to Vader, prove to me that he won't electrocute the living god out of him as he did to Shaak Ti. Prove that Revan>Galen Marek. The comic also depicts the explosion as being kilometers wide, this is impossible unless the Emperor can survive the vaccum of space. And the comic never says he threw a Shield generator at him I Have The Comic on my laptop.

Name one time I cited a gameplay mechanic as canical evidence. I was refuting those arguments because they are nothing more than gameplay mechanics that were being cited.

Or else feats that could be done by any Jedi who was clear-minded enough.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
PROOF? please opinion and theories DO NOT COUNT, Galen Marek>Revan in terms of CANONICAL things he has displayed. Now Revan>Krayt Dragon, No he used bombs to take it down, how does that count for anything, you wanna use gameplay, if you walk into thje Krayt Dragon Cave you immediately die. And whether you think its impossible for him to extend his blade is irrelevant. It is canon and, and some lightsabers can extend BTW, it is possible. We do not know how powerful Malak was, or Bandon for that matter so to say one Unknown> another Unknown, is going to get us no were. Prove to me that Galen cannot thrash Revan with the force as he did to Vader, prove to me that he won't electrocute the living god out of him as he did to Shaak Ti. Prove that Revan>Galen Marek. The comic also depicts the explosion as being kilometers wide, this is impossible unless the Emperor can survive the vaccum of space. And the comic never says he threw a Shield generator at him I Have The Comic on my laptop.

Question for you, do you see Galen Marek as being able to rule to Sith during the time of Kotor?

Nope Galen Marek lacks the intelligence, and not to mention the charisma of Revan, he is by no means a leader, but he is a duelist. @JAC then I apologize I misread your comment

And when did this happen?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Question for you, do you see Galen Marek as being able to rule to Sith during the time of Kotor?

Not being able to rule doesn't mean he wasn't more powerful then Revan or vice-versa . He wasn't raised by Vader to rule anything he an extension of Vader's will for most of his life, so the answer would be probably not, maybe if he lived past TFU and continued to aid the rebels. So this question has no bearings on the fight if your trying to use this question to help favor Revan in some.

Originally posted by Enyalus


And when did this happen?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWIGeYSZ4q4&feature=related
5:43-6:04

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Not being able to rule doesn't mean he wasn't more powerful then Revan or vice-versa . He wasn't raised by Vader to rule anything he an extension of Vader's will for most of his life, so the answer would be probably not, maybe if he lived past TFU and continued to aid the rebels. So this question has no bearings on the fight if your trying to use this question to help favor Revan in some.

I do understand your point, so let me clarify or re-phrase my question. Does Galen Marek have the power to rule the Sith during the Kotor era?

If so please explain why? The reason for me asking is to show that one would have to obtain a certain level of power in order to rule the Sith and gain there respect during the time of Kotor and before.

I am not familiar with Galen Marek so I asking a view point question.

I do believe Dooku, Vader, Sidious, could have done so. How long they would have lasted in a different thing but I do not believe Maul could have.

Well... We all know gameplay mechanics are not canon... But are cut scenes considered canon? Because gameplay and cut scenes have nothing to do with one another.

Cut scenes are based upon game mechanics and the game engine it runs, as well as the models, et cetera.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Question for you, do you see Galen Marek as being able to rule to Sith during the time of Kotor?

Your question is remarkably vague. Does he possess the strength to rule? Certainly, he has demonstrated a primal command of the Force well beyond what Darth Revan has displayed. Does he possess the required traits? No. Revan was a profoundly charismatic and capable leader; Marek is just a "wrecking ball of the Force."

Originally posted by Enyalus
Cut scenes are based upon game mechanics and the game engine it runs, as well as the models, et cetera.

Still, if the cut scene from the game is not contradicted by the novel or the comic, we should assume that's the way it happened.

Is it contradicted?

Originally posted by Gideon
Your question is remarkably vague. Does he possess the strength to rule? Certainly, he has demonstrated a primal command of the Force well beyond what Darth Revan has displayed. Does he possess the required traits? No. Revan was a profoundly charismatic and capable leader; Marek is just a "wrecking ball of the Force."

I take your word for it. In another thread I see arguments of Marek losing to Maul. Maul in my opinion does not possess the strength to rule over thousands of Sith.

Originally posted by Gideon
Your question is remarkably vague. Does he possess the strength to rule? Certainly, he has demonstrated a primal command of the Force well beyond what Darth Revan has displayed. Does he possess the required traits? No. Revan was a profoundly charismatic and capable leader; Marek is just a "wrecking ball of the Force."

He certainly lacked subtlety.

In a one on one duel with lightsabers and force, starkiller should defeat Revan from the data we have. Perhaps Revan could deceive Starkiller(with some kind of illusion learned form ancient holocrons) and scape before being defeated.

But Revan's greatest (and demonstrated) power doesn't come from the force. His greatest power is is charisma. He could turn enemies into allies, the jedis that pursued him for his crimes turned into the ranks of the sith instead. The mandalorians revered him after being crushed in the war. Everyone he meet would follow him to the end of time without an eye blinking... so Starkiller could posibly kill Revan, but he couldn't survive to the rage of his followers.

While it appears that Revan knows a lot more techniques than starkiller, Starkiller is just a beast in the force.

Official website:

"As the boy grew older, Vader promised him greater power -- through the dark side. Under Vader's relentless tutelage, the apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers."

Apparently Marek was well versed in the Force, btw.

Originally posted by Gideon
Official website:

"As the boy grew older, Vader promised him greater power -- through the dark side. Under Vader's relentless tutelage, the apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers."

Apparently Marek was well versed in the Force, btw.

Maybe so, but Vader wasn't a scholar and as such, is nowhere near Revan's level of knowledge in the force.

That wasn't my contention. But neither Vader nor Starkiller were limited to two techniques.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
For a change: Gideon, in the game, we see Marek humiliating Vader at the very end of their duel. Does the novel somehow contradict the way their duel turned out?

Allow me.

Nope, in the novel Galen beats Vader in swordsmanship (slashing him across the throat and shoulder and stabbing him in the thigh), and then finishes him off by using the Force to lift him into the air and throwing objects at him, concluding with a generator.

So yeah, Galen trashed him. It's awesome. One of my favourite duels ever.

Although I agree that Galen was powerful in the force, Revan was also extremely powerful. He was extremely accomplished in lightning and force whirlwind techniques and was noted as being able to utilise force powers to tap into the innermost fears and pains of his enemies and use them to his advantage, thus demonstrating a power of afflicting his enemies psychologically as well as physically.

Originally posted by Gideon
Marek is just a "wrecking ball of the Force."

Due to this ability, and the fact you have said Galen is not very intelligent and is basically a wrecking ball of the force, could Revan have not simply driven his weak mind to insanity. Galen would certainly have had many fears and pains, due to his trobled childhood and traumatic apprenticeship to Vader, and Revan may be able to use these to afflict and weaken him.

Revan was also very powerful at the physical and combat parts of the force. Due to the fact he changed allegiance many times, he became an adept at both the light and dark sides of the force. He also had an amazing amount of raw power. Kreia, who was his first Jedi Master and also a powerful Sith lord, described that "looking at him was like looking into the heart of the force". This was when Revan was still a young student, so his powers would have definitely increased massively over his lifetime. After the end of KOTOR1 Reven left known space to fight the "true sith" and never returned. His phsical powers may have continued to grow once he left the galaxy and at the very least his explorations around and outside the galaxy would have given him an uncomparable knowledge of the force and forcde techniques.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Allow me.

Nope, in the novel Galen beats Vader in swordsmanship (slashing him across the throat and shoulder and stabbing him in the thigh), and then finishes him off by using the Force to lift him into the air and throwing objects at him, concluding with a generator.

So yeah, Galen trashed him. It's awesome. One of my favourite duels ever.

Actually it does, what is portrayed in the game is even more humiliating than what happened in the novel.

And what happened in the comic isn't that embarrasing at all(2 pillars topple on vader).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh right, and electrocuting a Saarlac with Force Lightning which appeared far more powerful than even Revan's force storm.
Have you seen Revan's Force Storm in action before you used it for comparison?

The only known canonical demonstration of the Revan's Force Storm was in POD. Darth Bane with support from his companions unleashed the technique with full fury, causing wide-scale destruction on the landscape of Russan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I mean we have no clue how powerful Revan was,
According to the stats revealed by a source, champions of the force, Darth Revan has been confirmed to be more powerful than even the "Star Forge incarnation of Darth Malak." His defensive abilities are very good and he can unleash Force Storm on opponents single handedly. He has very strong mind controlling capabilities and can confuse and corrupt his enemies while dueling them. He is very strong physically and a master battle tactician.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
but he still has a remarkable number of feats.
Revan also has a remarkable number of feats to his name.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh, right, and the only thing we have seen Revan do in canon in terms of Force powers, is use Force Choke. Hopefully the KOTOR comics will change this but until I see canon proof that Revan has this slew of Force powers.
Revan canoncially knows more Force moves than just Force Choke. It is however true that much of his capabilities are still shrouded in mystery.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Galen Marek>Revan
I don't think so and neither you can prove it, unless you get to know all the details of Revan's capabilities.

Please do keep in mind that Revan was a;

-> Master swordsman
-> Master tactician
-> Very strong in the Force
-> Highly experienced and an accomplished Warrior
-> Was very strong physically
-> Knew some devastating dark side powers

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
According to the stats revealed by a source, champions of the force, Darth Revan has been confirmed to be more powerful than even the "Star Forge incarnation of Darth Malak."

Statistics aren't exactly canon. When you see things like +16 AGI or +8 Force strength, that's not a good comparison to use. Leland Chee has stated that those types of stats are non-canon, but things like the powers they are listed as knowing would be.

Besides that, there isn't much suggesting Revan was a superior Sith. The dark side was stated to have grown stronger under Darth Malak by both Vandar Tokare and Bastila Shan (hence why she couldn't sense the destruction of the Jedi temple on Dantooine), suggesting Malak ended up being more powerful than Darth Revan.

Originally posted by Advent
Statistics aren't exactly canon. When you see things like +16 AGI or +8 Force strength, that's not a good comparison to use. Leland Chee has stated that those types of stats are non-canon, but things like the powers they are listed as knowing would be.

Besides that, there isn't much suggesting Revan was a superior Sith. The dark side was stated to have grown stronger under Darth Malak by both Vandar Tokare and Bastila Shan (hence why she couldn't sense the destruction of the Jedi temple on Dantooine), suggesting Malak ended up being more powerful than Darth Revan.
The source is actually The Force Unleashed (Preview 3) and not Champions of the Force as wrongly pointed out by me. The author who defined some of the Revan's capabilities (as a Sith Lord) is also the author of the books: Force Unleashed Campaign Guide and Attack on Endor.

Regardless of what Leeland Chee said, these stats can provide some useful clues to the fans about what to expect from a certain incarnation of a character.

Since little is known about Revan's capabilities, such information seems to be an encouraging sign. As more and more authors will take interest in defining Revan, it will slowly but surely become apparent that Darth Revan was one of the most powerful Sith Lords in SW Galaxy.

Keep in mind that even in the POD, the author held Darth Revan in a very high esteem, even moreso that Darth Malak. Darth Revan's knowledge made Bane capable enough to destroy his enemies.

Some information concerning Revan revealed by the author, Sterling Hershey is:

Throughout this Jedi Civil War, Darth Revan was the central figure -- first as the enemy commander, but ultimately as the one who defeated Darth Malak and shattered the Sith forces.

And this is absolutely true in the light of the canon.

In the Star Wars Miniatures Game, Darth Revan is a formidable piece, with several unique powers or abilities. In fact, compared with Darth Malak (from the Champions of the Force set), Darth Revan is superior in every category except damage. Triple Attack, Dark Armor, and Lightsaber Duelist alone give Darth Revan a distinct advantage over most opponents. Force Storm may deter some from engaging the character in melee combat, but Force Corruption has the potential to damage an enemy for many rounds after the initial strike.

Beyond combat, Darth Revan's most influential ability is Master Tactician, giving the Sith player considerable control over initiative. When combined with one aspect of Darth Revan's commander effect, a piece may advance across the battle grid or move out of harm's way at the beginning of a round, before an enemy can react. Darth Revan also gives non-Unique followers a considerable bonus to attack when they are within 6 squares.

So what the author generally implied is that Revan was very powerful and a superior combatant in many aspects. He was superior to most fighters known at the time. In the history, very few could contend with him or were better.

Canonically in KOTOR, Darth Malak avoided direct confrontation with Darth Revan ever since he was terribly injured in a Light Saber duel with him. So Malak decided to betray him instead and waited for a perfect opportunity. This does not means that Malak was weak, it shows that how powerful and influential Revan was during his reign as the Dark Lord.

Also, Revan's great defensive abilities make it clear that why Revan was prepared to face the entire "Jedi Strike Team" sent to capture or kill him. He was confident and skilled enough to match them alone even when being out-numbered. Even Malak could handle multiple individuals simultaneously.

Bastilla Shan's inability to sense the destruction of Dantooine is indeed an indication of increase in Malak's power or mind fogging capabilities, but she never implied directly that Darth Malak became more powerful than Darth Revan and neither did Vandar proclaimed such a thing. Infact, when Bastilla turned to the dark side, she even tried to convince Revan to embrace the dark side again because she was confident of Revan's combat prowess and leadership abilities.

You're definitely this forum's official Revan fanboy.

Then by your logic about stats legend, wouldn't exarkun be more powerful than NJO luke and DE sidious when he is canonically not?

Btw i'm still astonishd to your level of revan fanboyism, even i can be that obsessive and fanboyish about sidious and vader anymore.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're definitely this forum's official Revan fanboy.
Lots of people are fans of Sidious. Even more are fans of Vader.

So what is wrong with being a fan of Revan? Is it a taboo or something?

I don't like this character because of his powers and skills. Those are the plus points indeed, but I like this character because he his kind of mysterious and complex and due to KOTOR game based story.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Then by your logic about stats legend, wouldn't exarkun be more powerful than NJO luke and DE sidious when he is canonically not?
No it isn't like that.

Stats are based on a certain incarnation of a character during a certain time. The skills and general capabilities of the characters are however taken in to account according to the events that took place in the canonical sources and how the character influenced them.

Example: According to, Champions of the Force, Darth Sidious can take on strike multiple individuals quickly in a duel and he knows Force Lightning, Choke, telepathy etc. These stats have been assigned to him on the basis of what he did during the events of ROTS.

The stats of NJO Luke and DE Sidious have not been revealed as of yet. Apart from that, character combat abilities matter even more. Circumstances and place of combat can also have an impact on the potential encounters.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Btw i'm still astonishd to your level of revan fanboyism, even i can be that obsessive and fanboyish about sidious and vader anymore.
So it is OK to bash Revan whenever possible but if one would support him, than person should be accused of fanboyism?

I am also open-minded in case of Star Wars as in any other subject. If you like Vader, than so be it. I like Revan, and it shouldn't concern you.

Now of-course I am not claiming that Revan is invincible but he is damn good. And the general consensus among the Star Wars authors seems to be the same as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No it isn't like that.

Stats are based on a certain incarnation of a character during a certain time. The skills and general capabilities of the characters are however taken in to account when defining them according to the events that took place in the canonical sources and how the character influenced them.

The stats of NJO Luke and DE Sidious have not been revealed as of yet. Apart from that, character combat abilities matter even more. Circumstances and place of combat can also have an impact on the potential encounters. You must have never read the DESB or NJOSB then.

But then again, stats are non canon regardless of what you say.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

So it is OK to bash Revan whenever possible but if one would support him, than person should be accused of fanboyism?

I am also open-minded in case of Star Wars as in any other subject. If you like Vader, than so be it. I like Revan, and it shouldn't concern you.

Now of-course I am not claiming that Revan is invincible but he is damn good. And the general consensus among the Star Wars authors seems to be the same as well. The last i recall, nobody is bashing revan.

Btw theres a distinct difference between being a fan and being a fanboy, you are that flawless example of what a revan fanboy is.

When ever someone makes a claim that so and so is technically more skilled than revan(which is fact), your conjure up walls of flawed refutable arguments that are riddled with incredible bias, its just that most of us don't give a shit with debating about fictional characters(cept you of course!), although we still do it for the sake of it, but then again we don't go to extreme levels of fanboyism to voice our opinions ,we(except you) are not taking it extremely seriously.

Not even nebaris, I , gideon or lightsnake would go to that extent anymore(nebaris sometimes does, but at the least his posts are intelligent and can sometimes be very convincing).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lots of people are fans of Sidious. Even more are fans of Vader.

So what is wrong with being a fan of Revan? Is it a taboo or something?

I don't like this character because of his powers and skills. Those are the plus points indeed, but I like this character because he his kind of mysterious and complex and due to KOTOR game based story. I never said it was a detriment. I loved the game and the character myself. But asserting his ability to defeat or combat other characters in specific conditions flies in the face of the very real fact that there are no specifics facts concerning his powers and combative abilities. We know he was powerful and skilled---but that's where it ends. It's the main problem with KoTOR, it mingles with virtually no other era in the mythos, and that means a lack of comparisons. Ergo our problem.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
You must have never read the DESB or NJOSB then.
I don't need to go through those books to know about NJO Luke' and DE Sidious' capabilities. It is already established that these two beings are considered to be the most powerful in the Star Wars saga. I do accept it. So anything else?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
But then again, stats are non canon regardless of what you say.
They might be non-canon but than again, it depends upon that from which source are those stats coming. Revan's stats have been revealed from the source, The Force Unleashed. I did not pulled them out of my @ss.

And in case of debating the powers of the so-called "virtually unknown characters," they can be useful to use.

But if that is not acceptable too, than why not ban these characters from debates?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
The last i recall, nobody is bashing revan.
Some people do under-rate him where-ever possible.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Btw theres a distinct difference between being a fan and being a fanboy, you are that flawless example of what a revan fanboy is.
There is no major distinction between the two.

The word "Fan" defines it all. If you are the fan of Vader, you can be termed a Vader fanboy or fangirl etc.

And besides Revan, I have debated for other characters too.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
When ever someone makes a claim that so and so is technically more skilled than revan(which is fact), your conjure up walls of flawed refutable arguments that are riddled with incredible bias, its just that most of us don't give a shit with debating about fictional characters(cept you of course!), although we still do it for the sake of it, but then again we don't go to extreme levels of fanboyism to voice our opinions ,we(except you) are not taking it extremely seriously.
And what did I said wrong in this thread?

I pointed out to Mizukage Yoda that he cannot:

1. Compare the potency of Revan's Force Storm with the Force Lightning of Galen unless he have a canoncial demonstration of Revan's Force Storm and knows how devastating it was. The only canonical example was provided in the POD novel.

2. Declare automatically that Galen > Revan on the basis of limited knowledge. While Galen may be a threat to him in single combat, it cannot be deduced that Galen > Revan because little is known about the skills of Revan and Mizukage Yoda cannot provide a fair comparison.

& that

3. Revan has been established as to be more powerful than Darth Malak.

4. Revan knows more than Force Choke.

5. Revan's feats suggest that he was an accomplished warrior and is undefeated.

So tell me that where I have exaggerated on Revan?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Not even nebaris, I , gideon or lightsnake would go to that extent anymore(nebaris sometimes does, but at the least his posts are intelligent and can sometimes be very convincing).
I know that how intelligent nebaris is. The point is that you can't get past your biased views regarding Revan and you expect others to follow the same path as well. One reason could be that Galen humiliated Vader and that put you off and you sort of resent it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't need to go through those books to know about NJO Luke' and DE Sidious' capabilities. It is already established that these two beings are considered to be the most powerful in the Star Wars saga. I do accept it. So anything else?


They might be non-canon but than again, it depends upon that from which source are those stats coming. Revan's stats have been revealed from the source, The Force Unleashed. I did not pulled them out of my @ss. If it is non canon it is non applicable to debates, get it through your thick skull.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And in case of debating the powers of the so-called "virtually unknown characters," they can be useful to use.

But if that is not acceptable too, than why not ban these characters from debates?


Some people do under-rate him where-ever possible.


There is no major distinction between the two.

The word "Fan" defines it all. If you are the fan of Vader, you can be termed a Vader fanboy or fangirl etc.

And besides Revan, I have debated for other characters too.


And what did I said wrong in this thread?

I pointed out to Mizukage Yoda that he cannot:

1. Compare the potency of Revan's Force Storm with the Force Lightning of Galen unless he have a canoncial demonstration of Revan's Force Storm and knows how devastating it was. The only canonical example was provided in the POD novel.

2. Declare automatically that Galen > Revan on the basis of limited knowledge. While Galen may be a threat to him in single combat, it cannot be deduced that Galen > Revan because little is known about the skills of Revan and Mizukage Yoda cannot provide a fair comparison.

& that

3. Revan has been established as to be more powerful than Darth Malak.

4. Revan knows more than Force Choke.

5. Revan's feats suggest that he was an accomplished warrior and is undefeated.

So tell me that where I have exaggerated on Revan?


I know that how intelligent nebaris is. The point is that you can't get past your biased views regarding Revan and you expect others to follow the same path as well. One reason could be that Galen humiliated Vader and that put you off and you sort of resent it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't need to go through those books to know about NJO Luke' and DE Sidious' capabilities. It is already established that these two beings are considered to be the most powerful in the Star Wars saga. I do accept it. So anything else?


They might be non-canon but than again, it depends upon that from which source are those stats coming. Revan's stats have been revealed from the source, The Force Unleashed. I did not pulled them out of my @ss. If it is non canon it is non applicable to debates, get it through your thick skull.

Then again as usual you derail the topic, i asked you to read those sourcebooks because they show the stats of sidious and njo luke.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And in case of debating the powers of the so-called "virtually unknown characters," they can be useful to use.
No its not, debating the powers from "virtually unknown characters" is based on established facts and feats, not on non canon stats.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

But if that is not acceptable too, than why not ban these characters from debates? So because using stats is generally non canon and we cant use it so therefore we must ban those characters?

I seriously don't understand what goes on in your head.


Some people do under-rate him where-ever possible.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

There is no major distinction between the two.

The word "Fan" defines it all. If you are the fan of Vader, you can be termed a Vader fanboy or fangirl etc. Yes there is friend.

A fan is a fan whereas a fanboy is incredibly biased towards his favourite character and argues with absolutely no logic and intelligence.

Hell even wikipedia disagrees with you :Fanboy is a term originating in the United States, used to describe a male who is highly devoted and biased in opinion towards a single subject or hobby within a given field.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And besides Revan, I have debated for other characters too.
Yeah malak and your favourite kotor characters, that again makes you a kotor fanboy.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I pointed out to Mizukage Yoda that he cannot:

1. Compare the potency of Revan's Force Storm with the Force Lightning of Galen unless he have a canoncial demonstration of Revan's Force Storm and knows how devastating it was. The only canonical example was provided in the POD novel. And then again the "force storm" required a ritual to execute the technique hence it is not of revans own power but the combined power of other force sensitives in the ritual.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

2. Declare automatically that Galen > Revan on the basis of limited knowledge. While Galen may be a threat to him in single combat, it cannot be deduced that Galen > Revan because little is known about the skills of Revan and Mizukage Yoda cannot provide a fair comparison. You must have never played TFU or read the book when galen beat the crap out of vader(who was able to easily restrain a jedi that tore a space station apart), topple ATAT's with relative ease, electrocute the great sarlacc with a massive wave of lightning and nearly fought with sidious on equal footing.

You must have failed to notice that galen was able to at least apply some force energy on a falling star destroyer, revan has yet to demonstrate TK anywhere even half of that level.

Revan(save for a few force feats) have done almost exactly nothing to even put himself near the levels of galen marek or even vader for that matter.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

3. Revan has been established as to be more powerful than Darth Malak. Soooooooo?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

4. Revan knows more than Force Choke.
Uh huh? Ok.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

5. Revan's feats suggest that he was an accomplished warrior and is undefeated.
And by being undefeated does that mean that other combatants cannot beat him? Bane? Exar kun? Galen? Vader? Sidious? Luke?

Nobody is denying that he is an accomplished warrior, but he is not as "awesome" as you want him to be.
So tell me that where I have exaggerated on Revan?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I know that how intelligent nebaris is. The point is that you can't get past your biased views regarding Revan and you expect others to follow the same path as well. One reason could be that Galen humiliated Vader and that put you off and you sort of resent it. And the funny thing is that i accepted the fact that galen took a crap on vader, whereas you can never accept the fact that here are characters more powerful than your precious revan.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
If it is non canon it is non applicable to debates, get it through your thick skull.
The Campaign Guide books are c-canon. The stats of the characters which are defined in such books automatically become c-canon.

The "gameplay mechanics" and "stats of the characters" defined in the Star Wars games are actually not canon. The cutscenes, videos, events, and background descriptions regarding characters in the Star Wars games are however c-canon.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Then again as usual you derail the topic, i asked you to read those sourcebooks because they show the stats of sidious and njo luke.
Since when did I derailed this thread? I am debating on skills of Revan, which is an absolutely valid thing to do in this thread.

And Kindly spare me the hassle and reveal those stats here yourself along with external links of the sources for close inspection.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
No its not, debating the powers from "virtually unknown characters" is based on established facts and feats, not on non canon stats.
The stats of the Darth Revan have been revealed by a couple of "Star Wars authors" recently. Those stats are based on Darth Revan's abilities prior to the events of KOTOR. They are not game based stats which would be regarded as non-canon and unreliable because in the game the player can define the stats in any manner as deemed fit.

So provide me a valid explanation and a quote from Leeland Chee (preferably) as to how the stats which are coming out from Star Wars books or published materials are also unreliable.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
So because using stats is generally non canon and we cant use it so therefore we must ban those characters?
The stats define the capabilities of a character in a firm footing. If a character is virtually unknown, than it becomes impossible to debate on the powers and skills of such a character. We may know that the character managed to do this and that, but we cannot draw a fair comparison of powers of that character with those of well defined characters. So using the "virtually unknown characters" should be banned from debates until more becomes known about them.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
I seriously don't understand what goes on in your head.
Dude! I have raised a valid point above.

How can you even debate on the powers of characters which are vitually unknown?

Does it even makes sense to use such characters in vesus threads and than simply declare the more well defined characters as superior?

You need to think rationally.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Yes there is friend.

A fan is a fan whereas a fanboy is incredibly biased towards his favourite character and argues with absolutely no logic and intelligence.
We do not work for George Lucas. We are all fans of Star Wars and our knowledge of things are not absolutely perfect.

We debate on Star Wars related subjects and put all options on the table. The purpose of the debates is to sort out the issues and solve the mysteries pertaining to the characters or objects involved.

So simply labelling a person a fanboy on the basis of his or her choices is foolishness. If a person wishes to debate only on Vader, than so be it. You can debate on 100 characters if you want to and bullshit about them all, that doesn't makes you any better than the person who debates on few characters.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Hell even wikipedia disagrees with you :Fanboy is a term originating in the United States, used to describe a male who is highly devoted and biased in opinion towards a single subject or hobby within a given field.
I don't make unnecessary assumptions on Revan. I mostly put the available options on the table regarding Revan from various sources in which he has been featured and defined. So there is a difference.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Yeah malak and your favourite kotor characters, that again makes you a kotor fanboy.
And what about PT fanboys in this forum? They are more justified in their responses than me?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
And then again the "force storm" required a ritual to execute the technique hence it is not of revans own power but the combined power of other force sensitives in the ritual.
I know this but it was instigated in the form or a ritual to augment its power. Several individuals joined hands to unleash the devastating technique with full fury. That doesn't means that Revan cannot churn out huge bolts of Lightning which would hit many individuals simultaneously. He knows the Force Storm! Period!

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
You must have never played TFU or read the book when galen beat the crap out of vader(who was able to easily restrain a jedi that tore a space station apart), topple ATAT's with relative ease, electrocute the great sarlacc with a massive wave of lightning and nearly fought with sidious on equal footing.
I know about Galen's feats. He was indeed very powerful and skilled. His powers are well defined and documented. The same is being desired for Revan, if one is draw a fair comparison and conclusion.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
You must have failed to notice that galen was able to at least apply some force energy on a falling star destroyer, revan has yet to demonstrate TK anywhere even half of that level.
Only time will tell that what did Revan do in his life-time.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Revan(save for a few force feats) have done almost exactly nothing to even put himself near the levels of galen marek or even vader for that matter.
Really?

Revan has defeated some of the accomplished warriors of his time including:

1. Mandalore - The Ultimate (Who could put a Jedi on his @ss with a single blow.)

2. Yusanis (Possibly the greatest Echani duelist with exceptional precognitive capabilities.)

3. Darth Bandon (Killed many Jedi during the Jedi Civil War and was strong enough to challenge Darth Malak for the position of DLOTS.)

4. Bastilla Shan with support from Star Forge (She was more powerful than all but few Jedi Masters by this time and had the support of a Super Weapon to help her in combat situations.)

5. Darth Malak on the Star Forge (He became one of the most powerful force users of his era by that time after he managed to utilize the Star Forge for his goals.)

Apart from this; Revan defeated a large number of Battle Droids, Dark Jedi, Mandalorians, Sith Troopers, and wild beasts, even when the opponents would come in groups.

So even if we don't know much about Revan's powers, it is apparent from his victories that he was a exceptional fighter and would be a fair match for the likes of Vader and Galen.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Soooooooo?
He defeated Darth Malak on the "Star Forge" and it means something.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Uh huh? Ok.
Yeah right?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
And by being undefeated does that mean that other combatants cannot beat him? Bane? Exar kun? Galen? Vader? Sidious? Luke?
Few can defeat him and I doubt that Vader is on that list.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Nobody is denying that he is an accomplished warrior, but he is not as "awesome" as you want him to be.
Contrary to your beliefs, most characters who met him consider him to be "awesome" and the list includes: Mandalore Canderous, Jedi Bastilla Shan, Ancient Sith Lord Ajusta Pall, and Jedi Master kriea. Surely, he was something to get such applause.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
And the funny thing is that i accepted the fact that galen took a crap on vader, whereas you can never accept the fact that here are characters more powerful than your precious revan.
I do accept the fact that there are characters more powerful than Revan.

I want Revan's story to be completed so that the fans should know that where does he stands in the over-all context. Thankfully some Star Wars authors are trying to do that job amidst the controversies surrounding the character's gender.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Campaign Guide books are c-canon. The stats of the characters which are defined in such books automatically become c-canon. Leland chee specifically stated that stats, regardless from where they come ARE NON CANON.

Your the one thats claiming that they can be used, so you go and find the quote that says they are canon and can be used in debates, the burden of proof falls on you hun.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

The "gameplay mechanics" and "stats of the characters" defined in the Star Wars Games are actually not canon. The cutscenes, videos, events, and background descriptions regarding characters in the Star Wars games are however c-canon.
Then why are you contradicting yourself making you look like an idiot?

First your saying "The stats of the characters which are defined in such books automatically become c-canon" and now your saying something completely different?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Since when did I derailed this thread? I am debating on skills of Revan, which is an absolutely valid thing to do in this thread. Just get back on topic and drop this.
But whatever, lets just get back to the matter at hand.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Kindly spare me the hassle and reveal those stats here yourself along with external links of the sources for close inspection. Like i said, stats are non canon and please spare me the migraine.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

The stats of the Darth Revan have been revealed by a couple of "Star Wars authors." Those stats are based on Darth Revan's abilities prior to the events of KOTOR. They are not game based stats which would be regarded as non-canon and unreliable because in the game the player can define them in any manner as deemed fit. Please list the "stats".
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

So provide me a valid explanation and a quote from Leeland Chee (preferably) as to how the stats which are coming out from a Star Wars book are also unreliable. Because the NJO and DE sourcebook are star wars books and leland specifically stated that they are not canon.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Stats define the capabilities of a character in a firm footing. If a character is virtually unknown, than it becomes impossible to debate on the powers and skills of such a character.
Hence we shouldn't even be debating on these characters in the first place.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We may know that the character managed to do this and that, but we cannot draw a fair comparison of powers of that character with those of well defined characters. So using the "virtually unknown characters" should be banned from debates until more becomes known about them.

The thing is, "virtually unknown characters" ARE banned from debates, please shut up and actually read the rules of the thread or confirm it with REX yourself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Dude! I have raised a valid point above.. Just read what i have to say.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

How can you even debate on the powers of characters which are vitually unknown? The point is we don't, not even the most intelligent members of the forums(LS, advent and gideon) would be able to debate on the combat prowess of these characters due to the lack of feats, we cannot judge the combatants combat prowess by simply looking at his stats nor can we actually make a valid conclusion.




Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Does it even makes sense to use such characters in vesus threads and than simply declare the more well defined characters as superior? Thats a question you got to ask yourself.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

You need to think rationally.
Ditto.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

We do not work for George Lucas. We are all fans of Star Wars and our knowledge of things are not absolutely perfect.

Again, theres a difference between being a fan and being a fanboy, so far the only person that i actually know that is so obsessed and devoted with revan and kotor friends is you.

A fanboy is simply someone that has unbelivable devotion to a single character(think of some one... like S_W_Legend) and goes to extreme measures riddled with bias and stupidity to prove his point.

A fan is someone who simply likes the movies or characters and doesn't get so obsessed with it.

Theres the difference, if your as smart as you say you will actually see this.

Really? You want to know what a fanboy is? Go watch "fanboys".
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

We debate on Star Wars related subjects and put all options on the table. The purpose of the debates is to sort out the issues and solve the mysteries.
Bingo, but for someone like you, its proving that you precious characters are superior to everyone else.

I'm not the only one labelling you a revan hard on fanboy, as far as i recall several other members did in the past and lucien did recently.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

So simply labelling a person a fanboy on the basis of his or her choices is foolishness. If a person wishes to debate only on Vader and than so be it. You can debate on 100 characters if you want to and bullshit about them all, that doesn't makes you any better than the person who debates on few characters.
It isn't simply debating on one or many characters, its the sheer foolishness and obsession with the character that makes the idiot a fanboy.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


I don't make unnecessary assumptions on Revan. I mostly put the available options on the table regarding Revan from various sources in which he has been featured and defined. So there is a difference. Oh you don't? What about the times you claimed he can defend techniques that he never even heard off?

And you ARE making baseless assumptions, your claiming that he can tool galen marek simply because he did a few feats that weren't on panel hence we don't know the exact circumstances of those feats.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


And what about PT fanboys in this forum? They are more justified in their responses than me?. Apparantly they are, im sorry friend but thats because they are more intelligent and rational than you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


I know this but it was instigated in the form or a ritual to augment its power. Several individuals joined hands to unleash the devastating technique with full fury. That doesn't means that Revan cannot churn out huge bolts of Lightning which would hit many individuals simultaneously. He knows the Force Storm! Period! Please do you have any proof of this?

If it could be unleashed by one person then why is there even a need for it to be involved in a ritual?

But yes, he does know the "force storm" technique which is completely different from the ritual, but then again how powerful is it really? To what extent could it do that such damage? Have we seen it in action? No, its inconclusive.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


I know about Galen's feats. He was indeed very powerful and skilled. His powers are well defined and documented. The same is being desired for Revan, if one is draw a fair comparison and conclusion. Difference is we actually see galen perform these beastly feats, which still outclasses anything revan did.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Really?

Revan has defeated some of the accomplished warriors of his time including:

1. Mandalore - The Ultimate (Who could put a Jedi on his @ss with a single blow.)

2. Yusanis (Possibly the greatest Echani duelist with exceptional precognitive capabilities.)

3. Darth Bandon (Killed many Jedi during the Jedi Civil War and was strong enough to challenge Darth Malak for the position of DLOTS.)

4. Bastilla Shan with support from Star Forge (She was more powerful than all but few Jedi Masters by this time and had the support of a Super Weapon to help her in combat situations.)

5. Darth Malak on the Star Forge (He became one of the most powerful force users of his era by that time abroad the Star Forge.)

Apart from this; Revan defeated a large number of Battle Droids, Dark Jedi, Mandalorians, Sith Troopers, and wild beasts, even when the opponents would come in groups.

So even if we don't know much about Revan's powers, it is apparent from his victories that he was a exceptional fighter and would be a fair match for the likes of Vader and Galen.

I'm not denying revans combat prowess, but then again the exact circumstances of those fights are completely unknown, we don't know what actually happened during those duels.

We know he is good, but exactly how good is hard to conclude due to what i just mentioned. Please understand that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

He defeated Darth Malak on the "Star Forge" and it means something. Of course.




Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Few can defeat him and I doubt that Vader is on that list.. And why wouldn't he? He easily defeated a jedi that was able to rip a space station apart and turn the whole facility into critical condition as well as choking victims lightyears away, he nearly killed galen marek when he seized a "telekinetic storm" before marek beat his ass as well as using the force to destroy massive barriers and crush an entire hut that was stated to be as durable and strong as steel.

And i never said vader would beat him easy.

And plenty of other people can beat him, kyp, luke, exar kun, bane, sidious, caedus, mace, yoda, nihilus.

Thats more than a "few".
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Contrary to your beliefs, most characters who met him consider him to be "awesome" and the list includes: Mandalore Canderous, Jedi Bastilla Shan, Ancient Sith Lord Ajusta Pall, and Jedi Master kriea. Surely, he was something to get such applause.
Just not as awesome as you want him to be.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I do accept the fact that there are characters more powerful than Revan.
You don't.

I like how he completely ignored my post.

Aww.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Aww.

Huh?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I like how he completely ignored my post. Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Aww. Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Huh?
Understand? ^_^

Originally posted by mattatom
Understand? ^_^

I was being sarcastic by ignoring his post.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I was being sarcastic by ignoring his post.
I was being condescending believing that you were sincere.

And I was being... I don't know, something alright.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
And I was being... I don't know, something alright.
Sympathetic? Possibly?

Yes! That's it! I'm actually always sympathetic. Unlike others here. *says no names*

Exactly.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yes! That's it! I'm actually always sympathetic. Unlike others here. *says no names*
I don't get a thumbs up from you but I do from Red?!?! *slaps Slash* I deserve one! g1ve nao pl0x.!!!!eleven!!!!

Originally posted by mattatom
Sympathetic? Possibly?

Fine.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Fine.


*Reanimated as Luciens Minion* *Dies a second happy death*

What no


?

This isn't the original topic................... No. No, no, no!




I had a dog named Segue.

There's a topic?

I have the best dog in the world.

Yeah, she's cool. Can I buy her from you?

HELZ NO.

AAH! You're no fun. You won't even sell your dog to me.

revan takes this after a really tough fight.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
revan takes this after a really tough fight. How?

Originally posted by bayhunter12
revan takes this after a really tough fight. Yes. How?

revan was one of the finest sith of his time . he's knowledge of the force is far superior . even though his skills with a saber are somewhat unknown.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
revan was one of the finest sith of his time . he's knowledge of the force is far superior . even though his skills with a saber are somewhat unknown. Actually, I'm quite a connoisseur of cars. My knowledge of the intricacies in the engineering and history of the automotive is unparalleled to anyone else in the world. Sadly though, I'm not a very good driver.

I somehow knew you were a lousy driver.

But anyhow, I hate unknowns being used in versus threads. Yes, I'm quite repetitive.

Saber-Tie
Force-Revan
All out-Revan (Not by much)

Originally posted by Zepxyon
Saber-Tie
Force-Revan
All out-Revan (Not by much) Why do you say Revan would win the Force contest?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I never said it was a detriment. I loved the game and the character myself. But asserting his ability to defeat or combat other characters in specific conditions flies in the face of the very real fact that there are no specifics facts concerning his powers and combative abilities. We know he was powerful and skilled---but that's where it ends. It's the main problem with KoTOR, it mingles with virtually no other era in the mythos, and that means a lack of comparisons. Ergo our problem.
Your reply got overlooked previously, so my response comes now.

Let us examine the points of Leeland Chee:

"Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.

But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison."

So you think that stats of Darth Revan revealed in the recent "Force Unleashed Compaign Guide" previews do not hold any merit and are completely irrelevant?

Authors have now begin to define Revan's powers. As pointed out by me before, Revan knows techniques: Force Drain, Force Lightning (can augment it to Force Storm), Force Grip/Choke, Force Stun, Telekinetic powers (Move objects with the Force, creating Whirlwinds etc.), and Mind Control. He is also confirmed to be "Dark Side Adept" and is gifted with special abilities such as: Battle Precognition, Farseeing, and is a great tactician.

These are the powers defined for Darth Revan and chances are that they will be used as a reference for any novels that might be written for him.

Canonical sources such as: KOTOR Compaign Guide and The New Essential Chronology confirm him to be a "powerful Jedi warrior" and also "strong in the Force." His vast strength in the Force implies that he is a powerful foe to be a reckoned with and his Force moves will be highly effective in combat scenarios.

Now of-course people want to see Revan performing all these powers but authors have made it sure that he knows the above mentioned techniques in the books.

Hence, he is not that much of an unknown after-all in the light of latest information concerning him and we now have a clue or two about his combative abilities. Some people continue to ignore these latest developments but it is they who are at fault and not me.

He still loses to starkiller though, and i mean badly.

And where exactly did you get that quote? Because if thats the case shouldn't vader be more powerful than jedi master luke skywalker seeing his stats are higher?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your reply got overlooked previously, so my response comes now.

Let us examine the points of Leeland Chee:

"Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.

But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison."

So you think that stats of Darth Revan revealed in the recent "Force Unleashed Compaign Guide" previews do not hold any merit and are completely irrelevant?

Authors have now begin to define Revan's powers. As pointed out by me before, Revan knows techniques: Force Drain, Force Lightning (can augment it to Force Storm), Force Grip/Choke, Force Stun, Telekinetic powers (Move objects with the Force, creating Whirlwinds etc.), and Mind Control. He is also confirmed to be "Dark Side Adept" and is gifted with special abilities such as: Battle Precognition, Farseeing, and is a great tactician.

These are the powers defined for Darth Revan and chances are that they will be used as a reference for any novels that might be written for him.

Canonical sources such as: KOTOR Compaign Guide and The New Essential Chronology confirm him to be a "powerful Jedi warrior" and also "strong in the Force." His vast strength in the Force implies that he is a powerful foe to be a reckoned with and his Force moves will be highly effective in combat scenarios.

Now of-course people want to see Revan performing all these powers but authors have made it sure that he knows the above mentioned techniques in the books.

Hence, he is not that much of an unknown after-all in the light of latest information concerning him and we now have a clue or two about his combative abilities. Some people continue to ignore these latest developments but it is they who are at fault and not me. Fan-f*cking-tastic for Revan knowing these things. We need to know how powerful these techniques are when he uses them. His Force Drain could be absolute shit and his Lightning could make Zeus envious. We need THOSE statistics. If we go by game mechanics alone, I could claim that Revan can only jump when he leaps to attack someone and is incapable of even hopping. See how ridiculous that is? Picking and choosing like that is a no-no.

honestly, believe what you want, i'm sick of the argument. It is 10x worse now then when i left. sw_legend, kotor3, you are free to believe what you want. It hzs been explained why you are wrong, but if you want to keep fighting it,grand. I for one am completely done responding to threads with unknowns.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
He still loses to starkiller though, and i mean badly.
Take a good look at some interesting Force applications that Revan could use in combat scenarios:

1. Drain Force (It allows the user to drain the energies of the opponents and use them to revitalize themselves.)

2. Force Storm (Revan could unleash this technique in combat scenarios and the Lightning variant of this technique was so intense that it could discourage opponents from getting close and not to forget the considerable damage it would do. Force Storms are among the most devastating applications of the Force.)

3. Vast Telekinetic abilities (Revan has been confirmed to be strong in the Force in canon sources. He was likely capable of impressive telekinetic feats. On Dantooine, he lifted himself above and was hurling several objects around him while meditating in a room. He could also call upon the Force to surround an enemy in a swirling vortex of Force energy, which would life the opponents from the ground and prevent them from doing anything. His defensive abilities included Deflecting capability. He could even resist the effects of poisons using the Force.)

4. Wound (It allows the user to cause spasms in the lungs of target which would result in painful injuries.)

5. Slow (It allows the user to use the Force to generate heavy load on the target making it difficult for the target to maneuver.)

6. Force corruption (Causes confusion in the minds of enemies and makes them prone to more damage through applications of the Force as compared to normal circumstances.)

Revan had profound knowledge of the applications of the Force, which was enough to impress the likes of Darth Bane (a fair match for the likes of Vader and Starkiller). He knew several devastating Force applications and his attacks would be very effective in combat scenarios since he was strong in the Force too. So how is a person of considerable power loose to Starkiller and that too badly?

From what has been revealed about the known Force powers of Starkiller in the Force Unleashed Compaign Guide, I can say with confidence that his knowledge of the Force applications pales in comparison to what Revan can do. Yes! Starkiller is strong in the Force too and is a telekinetic prodigy. He killed some Jedi Masters too. Revan also killed some Sith Lords in comparison.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
And where exactly did you get that quote? Because if thats the case shouldn't vader be more powerful than jedi master luke skywalker seeing his stats are higher?
You need to check Star Wars official forums for the quote.

Vader was a master of the dark side. He was about 80% of Darth Sidious and that is impressive. Luke was probably Sidious' equal but he too does not enjoys clear winning streak over his foes. Several times he have been injured in duels. He is not invincible.

All characters have certain strengths and weaknesses. Some have less weaknesses than others and try to overcome them with passage of time. Luke is among those individuals. You need to look at his Force powers and feats to gauge his superiority over Vader. In a few cases, Vader might be better than many individuals in Star Wars galaxy but that does not means that he is capable of defeating the best we have seen so far.