ROTS Sidious vs Dooku and Maul

Gideon

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I seem to recall a lot of people talking about how awesome Maul's force powers were when he was matched up against someone who wasn't say, Darth Sidious.

I don't have nearly enough breadcrumbs to get back home from this maze of irrelevance, Janus. "I seem to recall..." is not really a solid basis for anything and "a lot of people were talking about how awesome Maul's force powers were..." is irrelevant unless you can identify me as one of them. Since Maul hasn't demonstrated anything approaching a great command of the Force, aside from its physical aspects, I would question the people and sources who state that he is "teh uberz!!1!" with the Force. Because he's not.

You seem to change choice of logic at whim, Janus. One wonders if the remainder of the thread will devolve into me pointing out how you never used such 'logic' before (except, of course, in threads against Darth Sidious). But I'll respond charitably: that Maul is 'a Sith Lord' does not mean that he is anything approaching special. That he is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith Lords in galactic history? That is a better reason, but the Complete Visual Dictionary goes onto elucidate that the majority of Maul's training is in regards to his lightsaber and Force-assisted physical abilities. Compare this to the likes of the Emperor, who concentrates on a more scholarly approach to the Force. If it is your assertion that Maul would even provide a quaint distraction for the Emperor, it is your burden to prove.

In that he wouldn't just roll over and die, being an established prodigy. But he has no chance alone.

Fortunately, Sidious isn't fighting a near equal, and you haven't established the danger from Darth Maul in the context of a strict Force fight.

I think you're confused. This is in context of a Force fight.

Yes, and I think you didn't take the time to read my rebuttal, but merely identified "LOLZ SIDIOUS WINS! CAN'T LET THAT HAPPEN!" and jumped into the fray for no particular reason other than to push a beaten and long-dead agenda. You will, no doubt, continue to push that agenda and then a few weeks later, you will leave and come back in another six months.

Do us all a favor, Janus. Let's try something different. How about you leave your opinions to yourself, I'll do the same, and we argue the facts?

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I seem to recall a lot of people talking about how awesome Maul's force powers were when he was matched up against someone who wasn't say, Darth Sidious. But somehow when this fight comes up you write him off as a "nonfactor"? Really? A Sith lord which is a nonfactor? Couldn't he generate lightning? Use TK? Throw bricks and chamber pots at Sidious? Would he just roll into a fetal position and do nothing? Ha. That begs for proof.

Dooku himself would be a considerable opponent. Even if Sidious beat Dooku, he could not hope to combat a near-equal in a setting where he was in danger from Maul. Even if Maul was completely unable to use the Force offensively, he could still close in while Dooku spammed Sith Lightning or otherwise used TK to distract and combat Sidious.

I think you're underestimating the level of opposition your favorite character has in this match, as usual.

Maul's not nearly as powerful as Palpatine is with the Force and Palpatine didn't have an intention of being replaced by him. If Dooku starts spamming lightning when Maul rushes in, Maul's going to find himself demoted from 'Apprentice' to 'Meat Shield.'

As formidable as Dooku is, he's not capable of competing with Palpatine, someone who purposefully made sure Maul would never be a threat or anything more than a vicious weapon. The difference Maul makes here is the time is takes for Palpatine to snap his neck in the force, or throw him headfirst into the wall.

Janus Marius

Actually, I seem to recall a very strong pro-Maul supporter base back when Maul came up in debates earlier this year. I could spend the better part of an hour trying to find them, but for what reason? Even if I am somehow wrong, this doesn't negate the problem with your stance.

So someone who dueled and killed two extremely powerful Jedi Masters and routinely killed assassins, droids, etc. and spent his life training to be a Sith Lord would be a mere fly against Darth Sidious who would be occupied fighting one of the best Jedi in generations who had turned to the Dark Side and been in training for over a decade?

Did I nail down that position for you well enough? The fact that you could just "write off" Darth Maul as nothing and then furthermore write off Dooku as nothing shows your bias clearer than anything I could ever say.

An established prodigy, and by your own admission one of the greatest Jedi Masters in thousands of years, and a powerful Dark Lord who fared well against Yoda twice. Yes, he has no chance alone. And with his nonfactor Darth Maul with him, he'll lose inside of what? Thirty seconds? Will Sidious do a Force Bomb and kill them both? This being the same Sidious who was schooled by Yoda and put on his ass by Mace, neither of which had a near-equal partner to supplement their skills and neither of which had access to the Dark Side which is clearly better for use in combat?

Really now? This keeps getting better and better.

I do note that this is in context of the Force Fight. I haven't written off anyone as a "nonfactor" in this issue, so the burden of proof is yours to show how Maul is a nonfactor, preferably with an argument that's valid and some sources. Otherwise, you're just reasserting your bias.

You should also note that my stance is pretty much this:

I don't see Sidious drastically winning every single match against these two by virtue of being somehow greatly superior. The gap between Dooku and Sidious is smaller than you've ever conceded to, and likewise Maul - while not near to Sidious in skill - is still a powerful and deadly opponent who has trained his whole life to kill using the Force and his saber. He's not a kid or anything. Even if he only chucks bricks at Sidious, this is a distraction which can unbalance things. Sidious would need to focus on Dooku to overcome him, because Dooku again is not some run-of-the-mill chump. He's a bonafide Force Prodigy.

You've magically concluded that Maul = nothing and has no bearing on the fight, and Dooku is a nonfactor to Sidious and therefore would die without any chance of winning, despite having assistance.

YOUR stance begs for proof, Gideon. You've made heavy, absolute assertions which require proof. So please, instead of slinging around opinions, why don't you entertain me with a well-thought out reply which builds your case, instead of "lol you have an agenda you hate cideous but cideos is the best because some book said so but i cant be bothered to structure together an actual argument so you lose *ad hominem*"

LS:

Again, burden of proof. You and Gideon are both just slinging out observations mixed with assertions. I want something more than that, please. I've made a tentative stance that I don't see Maul being a nonfactor, and that Gideon's assertion of that rings as unsupported. Yours does too, although as usual yours is much more polite.

I'm sure you can manage to put some instances of Maul's force use into context using source, right? I mean, if you can't, what leg do you stand on?

Gideon

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Actually, I seem to recall a very strong pro-Maul supporter base back when Maul came up in debates earlier this year. I could spend the better part of an hour trying to find them, but for what reason? Even if I am somehow wrong, this doesn't negate the problem with your stance.

Even if I were part of a pro-Maul supporter base, Janus, what does that have to do with his mastery of the Force? Nowhere will you find a statement linking me to the ridiculous idea that Darth Maul is some heavyweight with Force powers, because the sources to prove that aren't there. He is stated to have "far greater" dark side knowledge than the Nightsister Mighella, which leads me to conclude that, contrary to popular belief, he can summon and wield Force lightning, but merely doesn't due to his propensity for physical and martial attacks.

I'm not interested in your shaded perceptions. Qui-Gon Jinn and Anoon Bondara are notified for extremely capable technique as swordsmen; nowhere are they noted for being prodigious or 'extremely powerful' in context of Force aptitude.

For the record? He didn't kill either one of them with a startling command of the Force.

Which speaks to his remarkable physical discipline and mastery of the lightsaber, not to his Force aptitude..

For the record? He didn't kill any of them with a startling command of the Force.

Luke Skywalker destroyed millions of highly trained Imperial personnel when he blew up the Death Star. Could he stand up to the Emperor as of the Battle of Yavin? That's exactly the kind of logic you're providing; droids and assassins are all well and good, but they're a far cry from a Dark Lord of the Sith, especially in the context of a Force fight.

In the strict arena of a Force fight? You're damn right, since, you know, you haven't actually provided a ghost of a shred of evidence to suggest that Darth Maul has the power to stand up to his Master.

Your carpentry skills leave something to be desired. The fact that you would just somehow imbue Darth Maul with strength of the Force that he is not stated or shown to possess and suggest that he would somehow stand up to his prodigiously gifted Master and then accuse me of writing off Dooku as "nothing" when I simply said that he has no chance of victory really doesn't say a lot for you, Janus. I apologize for not subscribing to the delusion that Count Dooku was as strong or stronger than Darth Sidious as you once did, but perhaps you'll come to see that by simply saying that Sidious is more powerful than a given character, it doesn't mean we're biased.

He "fared well" against Yoda on Geonosis in that he survived an attack from his former Master (a former Master who didn't want to kill him) and "fared well" against Yoda on Vjun in that he survived an attack against his former Master on a world that enhanced his dark side mastery. In both cases, he retreated.

Compare that to Darth Sidious, who "fared well" against Yoda in a neutral environment when the Jedi Master sought to commit regicide. Though I know how much you like to compare the three situations, they aren't the same.

I never said that Dooku would get "owned." I said, by himself, he has no chance of victory against a Master who held him in servile submission and tamed his "independent spirit" for over a decade.

Yes, Janus, please keep it up. Dooku "fared well" against Yoda, but Sidious was schooled? Tantamount to lying, Janus, especially when you conveniently forgot to include the context of their situations. And, tell me, how does being defeated by Windu in the grounds of a lightsaber duel translate to inferiority in a Force fight?

Yes, your miscarriage of truth is terribly amusing.

Janus, not all of us share your habitual truth shadings. I'm not going to ask you again: you either put this in an objective light, or don't debate this with me at all.

The rest, I'll deal with later.

Lightsnake

Well, here's my reasoning:
We have Maul's admittance he is far inferior to his master. In Shadow Hunter, I believe is the source, we have Palpatine suddenly and telekentically grabbing Maul's saber from him and performing movements and motions in the air that frankly dazzle Maul. When they fight, and Maul aims to kill him, according to Darth Maul's journal, Palpatine fights with a training saber and has no issue completely overpowering Maul. in Darth Maul, Maul is rendered to his knees by a burst of Force Lightning very briefly before recover. Considering the opponent was a Nightsister, I doubt either of us would argue she's less powerful than Palpatine who can render three Dark Side adepts into smoking bones with only a casual burst of lightning from one hand.

Individually he know neither Dooku nor Maul are capable of competing with Palpatine given Lucas's own words in 'The Making of Revenge of the Sith' were "you need to be Mace and Yoda to compete with The Emperor." and Maul's too much a nonfactor here...his abilities in the force can't hold out to Palpatine, he's far inferior to Palpatine in sabers and Palpatine knows every single move he can make. Dooku doesn't have the same issue, but Palpatine fed him Dark Side knowledge rather sparingly as he never intended Dooku to be the permanent apprentice.

Much as I think Maul is an exemplary combatant and is a problem for almost anybody, he is matched up here against the one being against whom he is a nonfactor.

I've never seen Maul struggle with the Dark Side...however, it's pretty recorded he prefers to make things up close and personal as he has his own personal code.

He's just way too inferior to Palpatine in the Dark Side to have ever been a threat when he died.

Enyalus

The problem I have with that is threefold - the first is that Dooku was capable of sparring with and beating Mace Windu during his time as a Jedi. Mace has improved since then, but so has Dooku. "An even more powerful Sith Lord."

Secondly - Lucas could've been referring to only Jedi characters. Dooku had no desire to overthrow Sidious, afterall.

And thirdly - Lucas probably doesn't know what he's talking about. It wouldn't be the first time. Consider the fact that Mace believed Obi-Wan was the best choice to face General Greivous (an opponent he'd already beaten twice), Mr. 20 strikes per second. That, and that Anakin was called the strongest and fastest Jedi of his generation - who by all indications was a superior duelist to Obi-Wan. And who absolutely destroyed Count Dooku (who once again, was capable of sparring with and beating Mace Windu).

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Enyalus

The problem I have with that is threefold - the first is that Dooku was capable of sparring with and beating Mace Windu during his time as a Jedi. Mace has improved since then, but so has Dooku. "An even more powerful Sith Lord."
Mace improved too.

Simply put, it doesn't matter if you have a problem with it. Not in the Slightest

Except he wasn't referring only to Jedi. "You have to be Mace or Yoda and if Anakin wasn't burned, etc, etc."

Anakin's inclusion seems to overrule 'only Jedi' and at no point does he specify.

What I have to say to this is simple:
Lucas 'probably' doesn't know what he's talking about?

Oh well. His word is still law and G-canon.

Enyalus

Put the claws away, will ya, LS?

Gideon

Debating Windu versus Dooku is pointless. As Jedi, both were highly regarded swordsmen, but the databank and Power of the Jedi Sourcebook stated that Yoda and Dooku have defeated him in combat before. Is that an explicit indicator of superiority? No. It simply means that, sometime during their career, Dooku defeated Windu at least once in a sparring match.

Personally? Even though Windu defeated the man who held the great, untamable Count Dooku in an atmosphere of fear for his final thirteen years, I would say that there's nothing to indicate that Windu possesses superior skill. Dooku has spent seven decades refining and perfecting Makashi, which is the ultimate dueling form. His duel with Windu on Boz Pity suggested some sort of parity, even though he would instruct General Grievous's Magnaguards to blindside Windu so that he could escape. Moreover, the narrator of Dark Rendezvous would state that "perhaps only" Mace Windu would be Count Dooku's equal on neutral ground.

The fact of the matter is that Mace Windu, even in his duel with Darth Sidious, did not demonstrate initial superior ability. Despite the advantages of superior numbers and being in combat stance, his teammates were slaughtered in quick succession, and was unable to overcome Sidious even with the assistance of Kit Fisto, a "celebrated swordsmen" according to the Complete Visual Dictionary. He was pushed back into the main office, slowly submerging himself into Vaapad and relieving himself of all Jedi restraint. When he did that, he and the Sith Lord reached impasse according to the novelization.

Windu's defeat was a legitimate one, but, contrary to popular belief, he didn't own Sidious. He gained an advantage against someone whom the novelization regarded as an equal. Am I surprised? No. Windu was able to perform on the frontlines throughout the Clone Wars whereas Palpatine's lightsaber was buried in a statue for thirteen years. That said, Windu is a master of Juyo, which according to Fight Saber requires one to be a "high end master of multiple forms."

The obvious conclusion is that it could go either way. But I would personally believe that Dooku is superior in terms of technique.

I'll be posting the merits of Dooku versus Sidious soon.

Gideon

Debating Count Dooku versus Darth Sidious is even more hopeless for those who wish to take the Count's side. When I said that Dooku "had no chance," I didn't mean for that to imply that Sidious would just steamroll over him in a few short seconds. I meant to convey that the battle would be something akin to the narrative present when Anoon Bondara engaged Darth Maul in a suicidal duel over Coruscant; the narrative went to say that Bondara knew that he was outmatched, and though Maul would work for his kill, there was no way that he could have won. As Janus correctly points out, Count Dooku has a prodigious command of the Force and is regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi in galactic history -- and an even greater Lord of the Sith. But, keep the following in mind:

Janus would have you believe that Count Dooku "fared well" against Yoda twice and that Darth Sidious "was schooled" by the very same Jedi. You must excuse his pettiness; it borders on outright deception. Yoda confronted Dooku twice throughout the duration of the Clone Wars.

During the Battle of Geonosis, Yoda explicitly tells Windu that Count Dooku "must be captured" before he rallies more systems to his cause. He is never shown to entertain the idea of murdering the Count and chooses to save the lives of Skywalker and Kenobi rather than continue the duel or stall until sufficient backup arrived. In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu would lament on his own decision not to kill Dooku when he had the chance, and reveals that it was out of affection for his old friend that he didn't butcher the traitor when he had the chance. In the Revenge of the Sith novelization, Yoda would explicitly tell Obi-Wan that "any Jedi" would be willing to sacrifice any of their number if it meant bringing the Clone Wars a moment closer to its end. A clear sign that he regretted his decision to turn and save Kenobi and Skywalker. Moreover, analyze the duel itself: Dooku uses telekinesis and Force lightning to attack Yoda numerous times in an opening salvo; of those multiple times, Yoda responses offensively only once, and that is ironically the last time that Dooku decides to carry on with the Force. The obvious conclusion is that Yoda was not attacking Dooku to his greatest extent.

During the events of Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Count Dooku offers Yoda a veiled truce if the Jedi agrees to meet Count Dooku alone on Vjun, a planet steeped in the dark side. Yoda knows and confesses that the whole thing is a trap, but goes to Vjun anyways in order to convert his former apprentice back to the light side. Despite the fact that Dooku is in the middle of a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force and Yoda professes an unwillingness to kill Dooku (whereas the Count declares that he will "enjoy" killing Yoda), Dooku is still forced on the defensive, "sweat pouring down his body" in the effort to try to kill Yoda. Also keep in mind that Dooku initiated the fight by hurling a civilian out of a window, forcing Yoda to levitate her to the ground, all the while being attacked by his former Padawan. In the end, Dooku admits that Yoda has "overpowered" him and reveals that he placed a missile in high orbit to destroy the chateau and all Jedi present as a contingency plan. Yoda diverts the missile as Dooku flees.

The suggestion that Yoda and Dooku fought on equal terms is an outright lie. Dooku is inferior to Yoda in all ways and by a healthy margin.

Compare this to Yoda's battle with Darth Sidious in the Senate Rotunda. Keep in mind that Coruscant was a neutral environment and Yoda professed his intent to kill Sidious: "Destroy the Sith, we must!" He didn't entertain the notions of capture. He was going to commit regicide. So, we have a situation where the environment isn't metaphysically beneficial to Sidious, and where Yoda had the intention to kill. Despite that, the battle ended in a stalemate, with Yoda unarmed and forced to flee, according to the official databank.

When you compare the two Sith and their battles against Yoda, Darth Sidious ultimately comes out looking more impressive.

Gideon

Also, numerous sources have made it clear: Count Dooku regards Darth Sidious with an interlace of unabashed awe and fear. There are three sources in particular that address this fear: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Labyrinth of Evil, and Revenge of the Sith. Since I only have one of those sources on hand, I have taken the liberty of quoting the relevant source material verbatim.

From Dark Rendezvous:

Gideon

In the end, it is unambiguously clear: Sidious is superior based on feats, narrative, and even in Dooku's own regard.

Janus, if you want to continue this debate, don't do me the discourtesy of lying or shading the truth again. We've been through this mess time and time again, and I'm no longer going to afford you the same length of patience. Once more, and I'm going to put you on my ignore list.

Enyalus

Superior via narration?

In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith Dooku is referred to as being the 'axis of the universe' once he allows the Force to flow through him. Later on it becomes the 'center of the universe.' Compare that to Darth Sidious who is seen as a 'black hole in the Force' and which appears greater in power?

Center of the Universe > Black Hole.
Dooku > Sidious.

The point of that was to show how absurd the hyperbole in that novel was. Utterly ridiculous throughout. This assessment wasn't serious.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Enyalus
Superior via narration?

In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith Dooku is referred to as being the 'axis of the universe' once he allows the Force to flow through him. Later on it becomes the 'center of the universe.' Compare that to Darth Sidious who is seen as a 'black hole in the Force' and which appears greater in power?

Center of the Universe > Black Hole.
Dooku > Sidious.

The point of that was to show how absurd the hyperbole in that novel was. Utterly ridiculous throughout. This assessment wasn't serious.

A black hole was the best way to describe Sidious. According to Dooku Sidious was beyond power. To Dooku using the word "power" was not enough to describe Sidious.

Tangible God

Take that Enyalus' beliefs. Besides, Dooku being the "axis of the Universe" still doesn't stand a chance once that axis is swallowed up by a "black hole of the Force."

But seriously, what kind of f*cked up piece of writing (even in Star Wars) would have the ultimate manipulator of the galaxy being the inferior to his own blind-sided apprentice? I mean that's just some bad storytelling.

Gideon

Enyalus

Originally posted by Tangible God
Take that Enyalus' beliefs. Besides, Dooku being the "axis of the Universe" still doesn't stand a chance once that axis is swallowed up by a "black hole of the Force."

But seriously, what kind of f*cked up piece of writing (even in Star Wars) would have the ultimate manipulator of the galaxy being the inferior to his own blind-sided apprentice? I mean that's just some bad storytelling.

Pssht. Someone needs an astronomy lesson. Black holes are at the center of galaxies. Universe >>>>> galaxy.

And actually, to be technical, there is no center of the universe at all. But yeah, I agree. I think the sheer amount of hyperbole in the ROTS novel is ridiculous. Some things I recall off the top of my head:

Dooku is the axis of the universe.
Sidious is a black hole.
Obi-Wan is the ultimate Jedi.
Sidious is 'the shadow.'
Yoda is the 'little green freak.'
And my personal favorite, Anakin's blows having the power of a "meteor strike."

Ugh.

I'm with Gideon - DR was a great read. I'll be a fanboy though - I really liked the way PoD was written, and the character development that went along with it.

Lightsnake

'Character' development consists of more than 'randomly changing characterization to suit the plot.'

Jedi Vs. Sith's section with Bane's narration did more for his character than two books from that talentless hack.

Enyalus

That's because Jedi vs. Sith was made of awesome. stick out tongue

Plus, a lot of his lines are exactly the same as the ones in PoD.

Lightsnake

Plenty are changed for no reason.

And I was referring to the Essential Guide

Borbarad

What, in the name of the enviable executor of Ronald McDonald, are you people doing here, eh?

It's not one opponent - there are two

Some people should really lern to think twice about certain situations. Once more: Sidious in this fight is facing two opponents. Can Maul beat him on his own? Most likely not. Can Dooku do it in a strict force contest? Probably not.

Can Sidious manhandle one of them while the other opponent attacks him at the very same time?

The point is that he has to keep up a decent force defence against opponent X while attacking opponent Y - or vice versa. It doesn't go "Sidious VS Dooku and after this Sidious VS Maul". Get that into your head people. Do you really think that Sidious can block, let's say a force push, from Darth Maul, while attempting to toast Dooku with force lightning at the same time? Or do you think that he can fry Maul while Dooku fires a barrage of force lightning at him? I, personally, don't think that he's able to do the job and it really begs for proof that he can do anything like that. Why?

Powerful? Not powerful?

One most love how everybody short of Yoda is a non-issue for Sidious in terms of force abilities. Really. Dooku walks through the saga, force raping people left and right without much difficulty , is mentioned as one of the most powerful, wise, knowledgeable etc. beings popping up in the entire history of the Jedi Order and "an even greater Sith Lord". Yoda directly mentions him as the Temples greatest student . Yet, somehow, the very same guy must - somehow - be leagues below Sidious?

Where does that idea come from? Oh yes. From the fact that Dooku feared Sidious. And what is "fear"? An emotion - an irrational feeling. Shall we base our judgement about characters on irrationality now? Oh yes, apparently we shall do exactly that. And nothing but that. Why even think a split second about Maul, Dooku or their respective abilities, when we can just write them off with an "Uh. But they feared Sidious"? Because, if we just leave the character relationships out, we just have two Sith Lords facing one other Sith Lord.

Duh?! But Sidious did...

...what exactly? Whatever Sidious has done, he did it against Jedi. How would he fare against other dark siders? May I remind you: The one Jedi that goes boarderline Dark Side in combat did put him on his ass and fended off a full powered barrage of his force lightning. Beyond Dooku? Doubt that.

Conclusion, anybody?

Sidious will get turned into a bloody blur on the next wall in lightsaber combat.

In a force contest? I remind you: He has to deal with the two opponents simultaneously. I doubt that he, in his RotS shape, can do the job because - yes - he has to focus on Dooku who can be far more dangerous than you consider him to be and Maul just has to offer some little distraction. Throwing some stuff? Shouldn't be beyond him. The only chance he has is to literally force kill one of his opponents instantly. Can he do that? Didn't see Mace Windu dropping down on the ground dead when being hit with force lightning. Hell...even in his RotJ state he couldn't insta-kill Vader with force lightning, despite Vaders weakness against that ability .

All out? Even if we take the off-chance into consideration that Sidious is capable of permanently disabling one of the duo in the matter of seconds , before they can close to melee range: Do you really think that he, after not having used a lightsaber for a decade, is capable of defeating Dooku or Maul in a straight forward lightsaber duel? I, personally, don't think that is the case.

Master Crimzon

... you don't think Sidious can beat either Maul or Dooku in a lightsaber duel?

I say massive 'LOLZ' to that.

Okay. First off, let's deal with the "They're both on par with Mace Windu ergo they own Sidious!" logic, which, forgive me, is one of the worst cases of A>B>C I've ever seen.

Why? First off, Maul outduelled Qui-Gon during TPM, which happens to be more than 10 years before RotS. Even if we're to assume that Mace was 'on par' with Qui-Gon during that time, you'll have to consider two factors. One is that Mace will not be nearly as powerful as he was in RotS, after years of intensive war experience and more and more mastering of his Vaapad. And the second factor, while we're speaking Vaapad, is the fact that Mace Windu's 'superconducting loop' would not work on Qui-Gon, because Qui-Gon does not generate dark side energies. Ergo, Mace- in a far inferior form and incapable of using his greatest advantages- was still capable of stalemating Qui-Gon in combat. Note the high regard Maul held Mace in, noting his interest in a conflict with him after his duel with Anoon Bondara. By TPM times, Sidious was able to stomp Maul in a lightsaber duel- while he's not nearly as well-practiced or physically conditioned, he's had far more time to study the lightsaber forms and happens to be an infinitely greater user of the force- his speed was beyond Maul's capability to see, for example. By RotS, while he would not be quite as technically skilled, he would likely be a superior force user, capable of utilizing the force's physical nature to a greater extent because of a logically superior grasp on the force.

Dooku? Similar thing. Compare his and Sidious' fight with Yoda- the lightsaber duel, specifically. Dooku was not only constantly being forced back, on the brink of being overpowered, and had Yoda running circles around him and dodging the majority of his attacks, effortlessly parrying them when he couldn't dodge, Yoda was actually holding back against his old apprentice. Dooku was completely and utterly outclassed. Compare this to Yoda vs. Sidious. Sidious not only managed to contend against a bloodlusted Yoda, he actually- during their pod engagement- successfully get a constant offensive despite being rooted in one location while Yoda was doing crazy acrobatics around him. Yoda didn't launch a single attack that actually damaged or hindered Sidious, despite breaking the saberlocks and all. Did he disarm Sidious? Plausible, but not verified. The script is relevant purely to the movie, and therefore all scenes within it that didn't make the cut are extremely unlikely to be canonical. The novel, for instance, which was written with George Lucas' specific approval, depicts a far more detailed fight scene. Nothing is mentioned about Yoda disarming Sidious. Conclusion? It's impossible to prove Yoda actually disarmed Sidious.

As for Dooku being supposedly on par with Mace, the only extended sparring matches they've had was before Dooku became a dark sider. Mace's Vaapad would not work to its full extent against Dooku. In Obsession, their duel was brief. Now then, compare this to Sidious vs. Mace. Sidious not only assaulted the team with 'blinding' speed (official Databank) and mananged to stomp the hell out of two of the finest swordsmen in the Order's history, he actually managed to defeat Kit Fisto- an extremely skilled Jedi- while Fisto was fighting in tandem with Mace. The two Jedi are likely to have formed a fighting pattern, having worked before. And then? Until Mace was fully submerged in Vaapad, Sidious forced him back and utterly outclassed him, in everything from agility to speed to offensive capability. Dooku didn't. Even when Mace was immersed in Vaapad, their duel was at 'an impasse' and only the Shatterpoint ability enabled him to get the upper hand on Sidious, while Sidious was forced to lower his speed in order to form a 'force-powered grip' on the slippery ledge.

Sidious' showings are simply superior to Dooku and Maul. In Maul's case, Sidious is far superior. He's faster, more agile, has superior reflexes and is, quite simply, a much more devastating opponent, even within the context of lightsaber combat. Yeah, he could beat either of them in a duel. Maybe not all too easily, but still quite a firm victory. So even if he manages to, say, nail Maul with the force, he'll still be capable of beating Dooku down with a lightsaber.

Gideon

To corroborate some of Master Crimzon's argument, I want to address some of Nai's points specifically.

I remain unconvinced by your argument that Darth Sidious will be overwhelmed due to the fact that he is outnumbered. We have had instances throughout the mythos of singular combatants engaging and defeating opponents working in tandem who outnumber them; Count Dooku himself is but one. So the mere suggestion that he will be hindered or fighting against the odds due to numbers is demonstrably false and preposterous. Though Darth Maul is lauded for his status amongst Sith apprentices, those accolades are directly attributed to his physical condition, the grueling state of his training, and that he has mastered various martial arts disciplines interlaced with Juyo, a form that requires one to be a "high end master of multiple forms." Nowhere is Darth Maul explicitly lauded or held in high regard by any source for his Force mastery. None. What Janus has implied, Nai, is ridiculous. There is no proof that he would be anything but a nonfactor against his Master, who is lauded for his command of the Force.

No one here has even remotely made that contention. Count Dooku's accolades need not be mentioned, suffice it to say that he is an immensely gifted Force user. But he hasn't demonstrated the sufficient power and skill to defeat his Master alone. To challenge him? Sure. As I previously noted, Palpatine isn't going to just steamroll through him. But he has no way to win.

Submerging himself into Vaapad, Windu is granted the ability to create a superconductive loop which no dark sider has ever demonstrated. As far as him "fending it off," Windu was nearly killed by that "barrage of Force lightning", despite the fact that: he was armed with a lightsaber, capable of channeling energy into its blade; he is a remarkable physical specimen capable of great strength and ability; he was in the superior position, standing up and towering over the Emperor; and the fact that he was the beneficiary of a metaphysical superconductive loop. Palpatine, despite that, relented the assault and was proven to have been feigning weakness. Unlike Windu, he had far greater reserves of energy to spare. Don't presume to imply that the two were somehow on parity in terms of Force energies.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
To corroborate some of Master Crimzon's argument, I want to address some of Nai's points specifically.

And I will just adress yours, since Crimzon is actually stupid enough to lecture me on A>B>C arguments and then come up with two A>B>C arguments to proof his point. Not worth my precious time.

The point is not that he is somehow outnumbered, Gideon.

How often did you see a force user in the saga defending against force attacks from two different opponents and at the very same time defeat one of that opponents by using the force?

The correct answer to this would be "Nowhere".

Let me try to give you an example of what I imagine, so you might get the point: Imagine the three Sith Lords are standing in some large room. Now Dooku attacks Sidious with force lightning, while Maul attempts to force push Sidious or force push stuff at him .

What will happen now? Of course Sidious can block Dooku's lightning . Of course he would also be able to stop Maul's TK . Can he do both at the same time? And if you suggest that he's capable of doing that, can he come up with a decent force attack himself while doing so? You could also give Sidious the offensive position. He attempts to use force lightning at Maul . Can he do that while shielding himself from Dooku's force lightning? Or can he sucessfully attack Dooku while Maul distracts him with some force manouvers?

See. The point is that he either has to defend himself againt attacks from both opponents simultaneously while attempting to attack himself at the same time. Or he has to overpower Dooku and Maul simultaneously before they can attack him. And this is not a question of numbers, but a question of Sidious force powers and his force control.

No, Gideon? Then tell me what "sufficient skill to defeat Sidious" would be and how it should be demonstrated. In fact, the only two beings you see fit for the job of facing Sidious, are Mace Windu and Yoda. Surprise, surprise.
So the "demonstration" of said skill-level would involved keeping up with or defeating Yoda, Mace or Sidious himself. Great. That are two people the Dooku in the continuum would either fear, love or at least respect as "Masters", possible not going all out on them, and one being he considered to be one of his closest friends whom he only confronted once, in a "fight" that was more "talk" then "battle".

One must love the clinging to a metaphor. Vaapad is a lightsaber style and a mindset. Which of these two things do you think should be able to summon a "superconducting loop" that takes "Darkness" from person X, then draws it to person Y, who takes it and channels it back to person X again?

I can answer that it's not the mindset, because Windu, according to the RotS novel, once being submerged into Vaapad, fights Sidious "without intervention of his mind" and is using the force to find the Shatterpoint of the Sith Lord. So do the lightsaber moves now form a superconducting loop?

Ah well. Apparently, the "superconducting loop" is how Mace percieves his Vaapad working. Shall we take that literally? I don't think so. Why not? Because neither the mindset nor the bladework offer an explanation for this phenomenon. Logically, Mace Windu can just wield his own powers around, no matter who he's fighting. The point is that Windu stays Windu, regardless of whom he is fighting. Essentially his Vaapad brings him to the edge of the Dark Side but doesn't let him fall to it. And what does using the Dark Side do with a force user? It makes them stronger in combat.

Hence he get's stronger once submerged into Vaapad. He reaches his personal "z0ne" somewhere on the edge of the Dark Side. And from there he's practically engaging Sidious in lightsaber combat with mere automatism, which obviously prevents him from using the force to "drain" power away from Sidious and channel it back on the Sith Lord. And please: If that really should be your explanation of how Vaapad works, then I don't see any reason to limit the "superconducting loop" stuff to Mace fighting Dark Siders.

According to the novel. And even there he wasn't almost killed by the lightning but by his own lightsaber being pushed into his head - which doesn't happen in the movie.

Which is somehow not true for Darth "Mr Martial Arts" Maul? Or are you more thinking about Count "I can block overhead swings from the Chosen One with the cyborg arm Skywalker and the Jedi Council Member Kenobi with one hand" Tyranus, aka Dooku, who was - as quoted by yourself - descriped as fit as a man half his age.

Which would have so much effect in an attempt to defend yourself against electrical energy flung at you by a Sith Lord. He isn't leaning on his lightsaber, is he? And even if...you can also do that while standing. And please: To make that situation happen in an actual VS match, where one of the two Sith Lords he's opposing here fights him in lightsaber combat, one would have to assume that they would not kill him after having disarmed him - because I didn't see fighting one handed much, which would be a condition needed for applying force lightning in lightsaber combat.

See above.

Looking at the movie, Sidious is attempting to kill Mace Windu with all he has, while the Jedi is working his lightsaber closer and closer to Sidious. Unless you want to tell me that Windu wasn't able to continue this for another 30-60 seconds, Sidious would still have ended with a lightsaber right through his body.

Aside of that: No. I'm not implying that Mace was on parity with Sidious in terms of force energies. I'm just implying that Dooku might be closer to Sidious in terms of force powers than you think - and that both Maul and Dooku might be able to defeat Sidious in straigth lightsaber combat individually, if you take into consideration that he didn't take the weapon up for a decade and Maul and Dooku are pretty skilled in that department.

Gideon

Then what are you suggesting, Nai? That in a strict Force fight, two opponents will always overcome the numerically inferior, regardless of their relative Force mastery?

Mace Windu was able to overcome Darth Sidious through Vaapad, which is reputed to be the deadliest of all of the lightsaber forms (something that Count Dooku is not a master of). In a strict Force engagement, I doubt he'd do anything other than fall down and die in a most painful, gory manner. Only Yoda has demonstrated the skill and power required to challenge and defeat Darth Sidious in any arena.

I'm not sure at what you're getting at, Nai. Count Dooku isn't an adept in the "deadliest lightsaber" form that enabled Windu's victory over Sidious, nor is he as great as Yoda is as a swordsman or Force user. That is why I remain unconvinced that he can defeat Sidious alone.

Except that you still haven't proven that Dooku is capable of creating the same metaphysical loop. Hence why, again, I remain unconvinced that he could defeat Sidious in combat.

...Which was caused by the strength of the lightning.

No one denied that they weren't physical specimens or that they couldn't necessarily achieve victory if in the same position as Mace was. But that's the part that leaves this up for debate: you can't prove that they'd ever get that far.

Except that Palpatine was on his ass, not pushing forward, but forward and up.

But again, no one denied that these two couldn't necessarily achieve the same thing if in that position.

Nai, no one said that Sidious was miles above Dooku. He's not. But they're not equals. And no one denied that Maul and Dooku would take the lightsaber fight. In fact, I do believe I even contended that not only could they, but they would.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
Then what are you suggesting, Nai? That in a strict Force fight, two opponents will always overcome the numerically inferior, regardless of their relative Force mastery?

Unless the numerically inferior can either destroy opposition with a fast movement there or keep up against the oppositions combined force powers while attacking himself. I don't see Sidious doing that against Maul and Dooku.

Yes. Because he's the only being who attempted to defeat Sidious in any arena. Or did you see any other PT Jedi attempting to challenge Sidious in a force contest?

No. Count Dooku is a master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat", in Yoda's words equal to Mace on equal ground in the lightsaber department. Yet he is, apparently, a greater force user than Mace Windu.

I wonder why I even attempted to explain why we shouldn't take that "superconducting loop" thingy literally, when you just ignore the point...

...which still doesn't happen in the higher level canon.

Let me see: Dooku was said to be equal to Mace Windu in the lightsaber department, but yet he's, as it seems, a greater force user. Maul defeated a being equal to TPM Mace Windu in the lightsaber department, besides the fact that he almost managed to kill Sidious after spending weeks on a remote planet, hungry and chased by a hord of killer droids. That aside from the fact that they both benefit from the Dark Side combat boost that Mace can just archieve by submerging himself into Vaapad.

Essentially he was "pushing" nowhere. And I don't see how direction would have any effect on some metaphysical force energy-

I was thinking about an all out fight, where just one of the two opponents might be able to engage Sidious in a lightsaber duel, assuming that he could destroy one of the two before they can close up to melee range, Gideon.

SIDIOUS 66

As far as the force mastery goes i say Sidious is way above Dooku. Dooku makes it noticeable by the way he harps on how powerful Sidious is, and how he is beyond power. If Dooku was close to Sidious do you think he would harp that much on how powerful Sidious was?

truejedi

The super-conducting loop is a ridiculously overused metaphor. It says in shatterpoint (that's one book i don't have, so i won't be able to give you the quote right off) that Vapaad used the darkness INSIDE of windu. He would be able to use it against any opponent. Once again,
It's a lightsaber STYLE. Not any kind of special ability. Saying that Mace can only use vapaad against a sith is kinda like saying he can ONLY use his lightsaber against a sith, and that's ridicilous. Vapaad is merely a combination of lightsaber moves that allow the user to touch on the dark-side of the force. Yes, maybe it did form some kind of force-loop with sidious, but it doesn't mean that it wouldn't work without doing that. I'm so sick of hearing the words "super-conducting loop" when describing a SABER STYLE. It doesn't even make sense.

Tangible God

Originally posted by truejedi
The super-conducting loop is a ridiculously overused metaphor. It says in shatterpoint (that's one book i don't have, so i won't be able to give you the quote right off) that Vapaad used the darkness INSIDE of windu. He would be able to use it against any opponent. Once again,
It's a lightsaber STYLE. Not any kind of special ability. Saying that Mace can only use vapaad against a sith is kinda like saying he can ONLY use his lightsaber against a sith, and that's ridicilous. Vapaad is merely a combination of lightsaber moves that allow the user to touch on the dark-side of the force. Yes, maybe it did form some kind of force-loop with sidious, but it doesn't mean that it wouldn't work without doing that. I'm so sick of hearing the words "super-conducting loop" when describing a SABER STYLE. It doesn't even make sense. I think it's supposed to be a state of mind, or a technique applied with Juyo. I saw somewhere that Vapaad uses both Windu's own inner-darkness as well as being able to turn the opponents own darkness back on them.

Cpt. Valerian

Damn you, people. You can't ever keep it short, can you? That has to be the most bloody long page I've ever seen.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As far as the force mastery goes i say Sidious is way above Dooku. Dooku makes it noticeable by the way he harps on how powerful Sidious is, and how he is beyond power. If Dooku was close to Sidious do you think he would harp that much on how powerful Sidious was?

Yes. Especially given Dooku's supreme arrogance and belief in his prodigious abilities.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Borbarad
And I will just adress yours, since Crimzon is actually stupid enough to lecture me on A>B>C arguments and then come up with two A>B>C arguments to proof his point. Not worth my precious time.

I lol'd, actually. I was expecting some sort of refutal, not half-assed "not worth my time!" shit.

I'm aware that I used A>B>C logic. But that was simply to demonstrate how ridiculous, idiotic, and false your logic was.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I lol'd, actually. I was expecting some sort of refutal, not half-assed "not worth my time!" shit.

Oh. I'm so sorry, little flower. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings by mentioning the fact that I think you posting is a great compilation of bullshit, not even worth reading it, much less wasting time answering it.

Oh sure, Sir.
And because it was just a demonstration, you actually expected some sort of refutal from me, correct? Despite the fact that labelling it a "demonstration" would make it even more nonsensical for me to reply to it, right?

Let's face the facts, Newbie: You came up with some not-so-well-thought-out argument and I totally owned you with one single sentence. Get over it.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. I'm so sorry, little flower. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings by mentioning the fact that I think you posting is a great compilation of bullshit, not even worth reading it, much less wasting time answering it.

Oh, I'm crushed. I must apologize for my insolence.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh sure, Sir.
And because it was just a demonstration, you actually expected some sort of refutal from me, correct? Despite the fact that labelling it a "demonstration" would make it even more nonsensical for me to reply to it, right?

Right. You said that Maul and Dooku can beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel because they beat Mace before, or in Maul's case, because he beat someone on par with Mace. I displayed how Sidious was not only on par with, he actually overwhelmed and forced back Mace while he was fighting under the same conditions that Dooku would face during his original sparring matches with Mace, and during their duel in Obsession.

Sidious also happened to perform better against Yoda, although Yoda happened to be bloodlusted in his fight against Sidious. As you can see, Sidious' displays against Mace and Yoda considerably trump Dooku's. His feats of speed and agility are better, too. I would much like to see you put a reasonable argument as to why either Dooku or Maul can beat Sidious in a duel. You obviously can't, otherwise you wouldn't have resorted to your condescending 'retort'.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Nah. Let's face the real facts, not the ones running through your brain at the moment ("lol a noobie he's not worth my time!" wink

; I crushed your pathetic attempt at an A>B>C argument, and you couldn't put an argument back.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Right. You said that Maul and Dooku can beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel because they beat Mace before, or in Maul's case, because he beat someone on par with Mace. I displayed how Sidious was not only on par with, he actually overwhelmed and forced back Mace while he was fighting under the same conditions that Dooku would face during his original sparring matches with Mace, and during their duel in Obsession.

Nope, newbie. I said there is the possibility that Dooku and Maul would be able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, because they did what they did. Did I attempt to hand it out as absolute proof that they can do the job? Nope.

And sorry. It doesn't matter that Sidious pushed Mace back. If you want to follow the supposed A>B>C argument, then Maul defeated a person on par with Mace Windu and Dooku did defeat Mace Windu during their practice sessions . When, exactly, did Sidious defeat a person on par with Mace Windu in a lightsaber fight? He get's put on his ass by Windu and get's probably disarmed by Yoda . So I don't really see a point to argue that Sidious > Maul or Sidious > Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability, while there are quite enough to argue the contrary.

I didn't see the Count getting disarmed by Yoda, neither did I see him getting put on his ass by Mace Windu. So the claim that Sidious "performed better" against them is absolutely stupid.

Yeah. Based on what? Dooku survived equally long against Yoda in a lightsaber duel than Sidious did - yet he was fighting the Jedi Master on equal ground and also managed to get away with his lightsaber in hand, twice. The same against Mace Windu whom he defeated at least once and escaped once again.

Yeah, right, newbie. Let's see:

a) Darth Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for more than a decade. Fact.

b) Dooku has been noted to be a master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat", on par with Mace Windu, yet more powerful following Yoda's words and the Counts force displays throughout the saga. His claims to saber fame include the defeats of duellist like: Sora Bulq, Tholme, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous, Qui-Gon Jinn and - on top of that - Mace Windu himself. That aside from being one of the most powerful individuals popping up in the Jedi temple in it's entire history, and an even greater Sith Lord. That aside from fighting with just one hand most of the time with enough physical strength to fend of Skywalker and Kenobi of simultaneously, and keep up a saber-lock with Yoda with one hand while force crushing that nice metal structure to drop it on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC.

And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Dooku in lightsaber combat. Oh right: There are none, given the fact that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda and put on his ass by Windu. The latter was already beaten by Dooku and he encountered the first on equal ground and still went out of the lightsaber fight in a better position than Sidious did.

c) Darth Maul? The guy is a beast in terms of physical condition and lightsaber skill, focusing entirely on his martial arts skilled aided by the force. He's fast enough to go after a Skyhopper on his feet and catch the vehicle and also fast enough to cut his way through a permacrete wall and a permacrete floor and speed through both of them in the same time a rocket from a wrist-rocket-launcher needs to travel the distance of a few metres.

That aside from the fact that he managed to single-handly wipe out the Black Sun and was capable of outduelling an Apprentice/Master tag team containing a duellist on par with TPM Mace Windu , ran through the Jedi Orders Battlemaster Anoon Bondara who's lightsaber ability was "second to none". And, of course, he also managed to almost kill Sidious with a spontaneous burst of anger - after spending weeks on some remote planet, being hungry and chased by a horde of killer droids and also injured.

And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Maul in a lightsaber duel. Unless you want to come up with the fact that he was able of beating an injured and hungry Maul, who probably hasn't slept over weeks or the fact that his apprentice feared him, I wonder what that reasons would be.

Let's face the real facts, not the ones circulating in your - otherwise empty - head. There is no reason to put Sidious over Maul, much less Dooku in terms of raw lightsaber ability and enough reasons to put them over their master, who apparently had to keep them in line by having them fear him. Especially if you consider the fact that, in the only recorded confrontation between Sidious and one of his apprentices, an already tired, hungry and injured Maul almost managed to kill Sidious - when Sidious was still "in training" with the lightsaber.

Master Crimzon

Sorry. Post was accidentally, well, 'released' while I was still typing something. Wait 'till I edit it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nope, newbie.

Stupid condescending comment numero uno.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I said there is the possibility that Dooku and Maul would be able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, because they did what they did. Did I attempt to hand it out as absolute proof that they can do the job? Nope.

I'll concede that both will give Sidious a hard time in lightsaber combat. I suppose Dooku has a chance of beating Sidious in a lightsaber confrontation, but it's certainly a relatively negative one. Definetly less than 5/10, IMO.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And sorry. It doesn't matter that Sidious pushed Mace back. If you want to follow the supposed A>B>C argument, then Maul defeated a person on par with Mace Windu and Dooku did defeat Mace Windu during their practice sessions .

And here you, once again, ignore the fact that Maul defeated someone supposedly 'on par' with Mace, not Mace himself- which is a very different matter. After trashing Anoon Bondara, he also happened to find interest in a confrontation with Mace Windu. Oh, and did I happen to mention the fact that Mace Windu would have grown far more powerful than he was in TPM by RotS? Or that his greatest advantage- Vaapad's superconducting loop- would fail to work against Qui-Gon, or for that matter, Dooku, at least during their original sparring matches in which the Count happened to beat Mace? Oh, yeah, I mentioned that before. Nice job glossing over evidence.

Originally posted by Borbarad
When, exactly, did Sidious defeat a person on par with Mace Windu in a lightsaber fight?

He utterly owned Maul, and if we're to go by your stupid logic, that Maul is 'on par' with Mace.

He never defeated someone on par with Mace, no. But when he and Mace fought on equal ground, with Mace being forced to rely purely on his natural abilities and skill, Mace wasn't just forced back and outclassed in almost every conceivable manner (including speed), Sidious actually gained an advantage over him although he was fighting Kit Fisto simultaneously. That Kit Fisto is the dude who, you know, was considerably superior to a one year-after AotC Obi-Wan? So, yeah. Sidious owned that Fisto in about five seconds, although Fisto was fighting in tandem with Mace Windu, one of the best lightsaber combatants in history.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He get's put on his ass by Windu and get's probably disarmed by Yoda . So I don't really see a point to argue that Sidious > Maul or Sidious > Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability, while there are quite enough to argue the contrary.

You totally love ignoring circumstance and evidence, don't you? Mace, even while his Vaapad granted him Sidious' superior physical capabilities, was still at an 'impasse' with the Sith Lord- only his Shatterpoint enabled him to defeat Sidious, while Sidious was forced to apparently lower his speed in order to form a force-enhanced grip on the slippery ledge. Dooku happened to fight Mace while Mace was vastly less powerful and didn't have Vaapad's advantages to utilize. Yoda didn't necessarily disarm Sidious, ye know. The script refers directly to the movie, and that movie didn't display that- the novel, which was written with personal approval from George Lucas, didn't mention anything about Yoda disarming Sidious. That doesn't directly contradict the movie, and therefore, it's canonical. There certainly isn't definitive evidence to claim that Yoda actually disarmed Sidious.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I didn't see the Count getting disarmed by Yoda, neither did I see him getting put on his ass by Mace Windu. So the claim that Sidious "performed better" against them is absolutely stupid.

Right. Which is why the Count was outclassed by a Yoda who was holding back, while Sidious managed to fight a bloodlusted Yoda equally and actually force Yoda on the defensive. And why Sidious outclassed Mace before Mace's superconducting loop came into play.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Based on what? Dooku survived equally long against Yoda in a lightsaber duel than Sidious did - yet he was fighting the Jedi Master on equal ground and also managed to get away with his lightsaber in hand, twice. The same against Mace Windu whom he defeated at least once and escaped once again.

Yoda was holding back and Dooku effin' ran away. Sidious fought Yoda to a standstill and put him on the defensive, despite Yoda performing all sorts of acrobatics. Ataru is a highly offensive style, too, so it will hardly be Yoda's preference to fight defensively.

Oh, and stop ignoring the fact that Sidious- in his natural abilities- is considerably superior to Mace, who is on par with Dooku at the very least.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah, right, newbie.

Condescending comment numero dos.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let's see:

a) Darth Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for more than a decade. Fact.

Yup. And was still capable of matching both Mace and Yoda.

Originally posted by Borbarad
b) Dooku has been noted to be a master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat", on par with Mace Windu, yet more powerful following Yoda's words and the Counts force displays throughout the saga.

IHis claims to saber fame include the defeats of duellist like: Sora Bulq, Tholme, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous, Qui-Gon Jinn and - on top of that - Mace Windu himself. That aside from being one of the most powerful individuals popping up in the Jedi temple in it's entire history, and an even greater Sith Lord. That aside from fighting with just one hand most of the time with enough physical strength to fend of Skywalker and Kenobi of simultaneously, and keep up a saber-lock with Yoda with one hand while force crushing that nice metal structure to drop it on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC.

And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Dooku in lightsaber combat. Oh right: There are none, given the fact that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda and put on his ass by Windu. The latter was already beaten by Dooku and he encountered the first on equal ground and still went out of the lightsaber fight in a better position than Sidious did.

c) Darth Maul? The guy is a beast in terms of physical condition and lightsaber skill, focusing entirely on his martial arts skilled aided by the force. He's fast enough to go after a Skyhopper on his feet and catch the vehicle and also fast enough to cut his way through a permacrete wall and a permacrete floor and speed through both of them in the same time a rocket from a wrist-rocket-launcher needs to travel the distance of a few metres.

That aside from the fact that he managed to single-handly wipe out the Black Sun and was capable of outduelling an Apprentice/Master tag team containing a duellist on par with TPM Mace Windu , ran through the Jedi Orders Battlemaster Anoon Bondara who's lightsaber ability was "second to none". And, of course, he also managed to almost kill Sidious with a spontaneous burst of anger - after spending weeks on some remote planet, being hungry and chased by a horde of killer droids and also injured.

And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Maul in a lightsaber duel. Unless you want to come up with the fact that he was able of beating an injured and hungry Maul, who probably hasn't slept over weeks or the fact that his apprentice feared him, I wonder what that reasons would be.

Let's face the real facts, not the ones circulating in your - otherwise empty - head. There is no reason to put Sidious over Maul, much less Dooku in terms of raw lightsaber ability and enough reasons to put them over their master, who apparently had to keep them in line by having them fear him. Especially if you consider the fact that, in the only recorded confrontation between Sidious and one of his apprentices, an already tired, hungry and injured Maul almost managed to kill Sidious - when Sidious was still "in training" with the lightsaber.

Master Crimzon

Sorry, my comp went nuts and my argument was sent before I could finish it. Here's the rest of it, anyway:

Originally posted by Borbarad
His claims to saber fame include the defeats of duellist like: Sora Bulq, Tholme, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous, Qui-Gon Jinn and - on top of that - Mace Windu himself.

Oh, are you implying that Sidious can't defeat any of the combatants mentioned above? I'm sure he would beat the crap out of TPM Mace.

Originally posted by Borbarad
That aside from being one of the most powerful individuals popping up in the Jedi temple in it's entire history, and an even greater Sith Lord.

True. Unfortunately, Sidious happens to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Originally posted by Borbarad
That aside from fighting with just one hand most of the time with enough physical strength to fend of Skywalker

Right, which is why the novel says that "each block aged him a decade". Sorry, Anakin utterly outclassed Dooku in physical strength- it's a large factor as to why Anakin was capable of destroying him the instant he 'decided to win'.

Originally posted by Borbarad
and Kenobi of simultaneously, and keep up a saber-lock with Yoda with one hand while force crushing that nice metal structure to drop it on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC.

That's nice for him. And it means he can beat Sidious how?

Originally posted by Borbarad
And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Dooku in lightsaber combat. Oh right: There are none, given the fact that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda and put on his ass by Windu. The latter was already beaten by Dooku and he encountered the first on equal ground and still went out of the lightsaber fight in a better position than Sidious did.

Your skilled in ignoring evidence are overwhelming. I concede.

Seriously, though, WTF? Sidious had demonstrated vastly superior feats of speed, agility, and sheer power, all the way from being able to blitz the hell out of two of the best swordsman in the Order's history, to outclassing Mace (minus superconducting loop) in a way Dooku simply couldn't, to performing much better against a less restrained Yoda, his displays- while fewer in number than the Count's- are superior.

Originally posted by Borbarad
c) Darth Maul? The guy is a beast in terms of physical condition and lightsaber skill, focusing entirely on his martial arts skilled aided by the force. He's fast enough to go after a Skyhopper on his feet and catch the vehicle and also fast enough to cut his way through a permacrete wall and a permacrete floor and speed through both of them in the same time a rocket from a wrist-rocket-launcher needs to travel the distance of a few metres.

Which is why he only identified Sidious as a blur. Sidious is faster, and by no small amount.

Originally posted by Borbarad
That aside from the fact that he managed to single-handly wipe out the Black Sun and was capable of outduelling an Apprentice/Master tag team containing a duellist on par with TPM Mace Windu ,

'On par with Mace'? If anything, it was noted that dueling Qui-Gon and Mace caused Anoon to doubt his status as the Order's greatest swordsman. That at least implies that Mace mananged to defeat Anoon.

Originally posted by Borbarad
ran through the Jedi Orders Battlemaster Anoon Bondara who's lightsaber ability was "second to none". And, of course, he also managed to almost kill Sidious with a spontaneous burst of anger - after spending weeks on some remote planet, being hungry and chased by a horde of killer droids and also injured.

And now you might give me your reasons for Sidious being able to defeat Maul in a lightsaber duel. Unless you want to come up with the fact that he was able of beating an injured and hungry Maul, who probably hasn't slept over weeks or the fact that his apprentice feared him, I wonder what that reasons would be.

Nah. When they fought at first, Sidious utterly raped him- it's also worth to note that Maul, as a highly physical Sith and an engine of destruction, is likely to be trained to completely ignore pain, just like how Palpatine mananged to feed his own pain to increase the force of his lightning.

Oh, and don't forget to mention that Sidious wasn't willing to kill Maul, was using a training lightsaber, and was caught off-guard by Maul's sudden assault.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let's face the real facts, not the ones circulating in your - otherwise empty - head.

How deliciously witty.

Originally posted by Borbarad
There is no reason to put Sidious over Maul, much less Dooku in terms of raw lightsaber ability and enough reasons to put them over their master, who apparently had to keep them in line by having them fear him.

In your head, maybe. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Sidious > Maul and Dooku.

Oh, and how else would he keep them in line? I'm sorry, but that's utterly ridiculous. Just like Marka Ragnos before him, it's the Sith way of keeping their followers in line- by having them fear their superior power.

Originally posted by Borbarad
confrontation between Sidious and one of his apprentices, an already tired, hungry and injured Maul almost managed to kill Sidious - when Sidious was still "in training" with the lightsaber.

Already dealt with.

Gideon

I preface this by saying that I'm not going to bother responding to every single statement you've made, Nai, because I believe Crimzon has done a very good job with his rebuttal, and it is a waste of time on all of our parts to make a separate argument that will ultimately, for the most part, offer the same thing that his does. But, as before, I will corroborate and address some particular points of interest.

First, I am of the opinion that it is a high possibility that Count Dooku and Darth Maul could overcome Darth Sidious in the context of a lightsaber fight. Dooku's prodigious swordsmanship has already been identified and explored, and the simple fact is that Darth Maul is a particularly lethal combatant as well. Maul was disciplined to a training regimen that is simply ridiculous in extent and depth, "pushing his physical and Force assisted abilities to the utmost," becoming indoctrinated in various martial arts, mastering Juyo (which requires its users to be "high end masters of multiple forms" Fight Saber]), and being unambiguously stated to be "one of the most dangerous" and "highly trained" Sith apprentices in galactic history. As far as technical ability is concerned, there can be no doubt that those two are, at the very least, equal to their Master, who has not been seen using a lightsaber in over a decade.

But I must retract my former opinion that Sidious would be defeated by them even in that arena. While the possibility is still great, Count Dooku's own musings in Revenge of the Sith indicate that he "always fought alone" and was conditioned to fight without aid. Darth Maul, similarly, carries the same trait. There is no great partnership or coordination here. Moreover, if I may borrow a source provided by Publius:

So, due to Palpatine's far greater command of the Force, he is able to wield a lightsaber faster than Darth Maul's eye can follow. As potent a warrior as Maul is, he cannot fight what he cannot see. Likewise, keep in mind that Darth Maul's near victory over Darth Sidious during his trials was the product of anger. Sidious goaded and mocked him, stating that he would not be chosen as Sidious's Sith apprentice. Maul lashed out in hatred and Sidious simply deflected the blows, albeit barely. That isn't a duel to the death, and it should be noted that Maul also bit Sidious and was disarmed a second time.

Another point of interest is the comparisons between Dooku's fights with Yoda with Sidious's. The cold truth to the matter is that, in both occasions, Yoda's priority was to disable or capture Count Dooku. Dooku, by admission, was "overpowered" by Yoda even on Vjun, a planet steeped with the dark side. Compare that to Sidious battling a Yoda on a neutral setting where the Jedi Master made it unambiguous that his intent was regicide. So looking at it in the proper context, Sidious's performance was greater. After all, Dooku was unable to defeat Yoda on a world that enhanced his dark side powers.

Faunus

Crimzon, you need to clarify two things for me; how Sidious "outclassed in almost every conceivable way," and how Mace improved "vastly" between TPM and RotS. I don't necessarily disagree with your stance on the matter, but those two points in particular need to be addressed.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Faunus
Crimzon, you need to clarify two things for me; how Sidious "outclassed in almost every conceivable way," and how Mace improved "vastly" between TPM and RotS. I don't necessarily disagree with your stance on the matter, but those two points in particular need to be addressed.

No problem.

When Mace and his posse arrived to arrest Palpatine, they got into battle stances- Palpatine soon attacked them and utterly decimated both Agen Kolar (noted next to Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker as one of the order's best) and Saesee Tiin before Mace could even move. He proceeded to own Fisto and force Mace back, causing Mace to 'fight for his life'. And while Sidious didn't school him in, say, the same way Dooku schooled AotC Obi-Wan, he had the advantage in almost every category. Until Mace replicated Sidious' dark side benefits and proceeded to beat him.

Between TPM and RotS, Mace Windu not only participated in a vast amount of powers, he would logically have 13 years to enhance his prowess with his Vaapad and Shatterpoint abilities. Didn't he get a noticeable power-up in Shatterpoint alone? Anyway, I'm certain that he had sufficient time and experience to increase his abilities by a very large amount.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I'll concede that both will give Sidious a hard time in lightsaber combat. I suppose Dooku has a chance of beating Sidious in a lightsaber confrontation, but it's certainly a relatively negative one. Definetly less than 5/10, IMO.

Based on what?

It is? Based on what exactly? It is a mere fact that Qui-Gon and Mace were equals in lightsaber combat. None of them could claim an advantage over the other, although Qui-Gon is believed to have been able to beat Mace in lightsaber combat when he was younger. Now Maul simply defeated him by superior skill. Something that Mace Windu didn't manage to do. And Dooku did defeat Mace himself as well as he did defeat a younger Qui-Gon Jinn.

Since when do force users make quantum leaps in terms of lightsaber ability and combat prowess between there 40s and there 50s, eh? You're essentially attempting to tell me that Mace Windu did develop Vaapad any further, after working on that style already for more than 20 years? And that he somehow managed to develop far more combat prowess, when he was already a living legend in times of TPM? I somehow doubt that.

Especially when you have Qui-Gon Jinn claiming that he could have beaten Mace, if he was younger, implying that a Jedi's overall ability in terms of combat would rather decline than improve in high age .

Didn't I just explain why we shouldn't take the "superconducting loop" thing literally? And while mentioning the "glossing over evidence", you might want to present me the evidence that said "superconducting loop" would just work against Dark Siders. If one literally "feeds" upon the force powers of his opponents, just to throw them back at them, this would either work regardless of the background of the opponent or it doesn't work like this at all.

He utterly owned Maul, who was already raddled by weeks of being hunted and injured. Really. It's not so that Sidious walked up to Maul in top shape and pimp-slapped him in a lightsaber duel. And Sidious was "in training" himself, when that happened, which doesn't apply for Sidious as he was in RotS.

And in the end, Sidious was beaten. You have to understand, once and for all, that unlike Mace - who has to sink into his Vaapad first - Dooku and Maul would be at 100 % ability in the same split second the fight starts. Once Mace did reach the upper limit of his abilities, he wasn't even in need to waste a thought on combating the Sith Lord, driving him back through the office (as seen in the movie) and able to focus on the Shatterpoint of the Sith Lord, finally disarming him.

And you totally love to mix up the novel and the movie, right? In the novel, the both are continuing to fight on a slippery balcony. Did you see that happen in the movie? Nope? And even then, Mace was standing on equal slippery ground, which makes attempting to talk Mace's feat down by mentioning that "Sidious was standing on slippery ground" completely useless.

Wow. I'd love to see your proof for Mace being "vastly less powerful" in TPM than he was in RotS. If you've finished with the work to bring that in, you just have to proof that the "superconducting loop" does really exist and only works against Dark Siders. And then you just have to find an explanation, how Dooku could beat Mace Windu, who was already training in Vaapad for 27 years and had the advantage of his Shatterpoint ability already. After which you just have to argue around the fact that, following Yoda's judgement, Mace and Dooku are still equals in times of DR .

Oh what the hell, newbie?
Elements appearing in the novel and not in the movie are just C-Canon. Fact. The script, written by Lucas himself, is a G-Canon source and because of that it superceedes the novel. Aside of that the idea that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda is not contradicted by the movie, as the respective scene would happen between the last lightsaber sequence and the pod throwing sequence - which the movie doesn't show. The idea that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda is just contradicted by the novels interpretation of the fight , which is still superceeded by the G-Canon script. I'm afraid.

Actually, by Dooku's thoughts throughout DR, one can make the assumption that he was also holding back against his former Master, which makes this situation a complete non-issue.

And Yoda is "bloodlusted"? Have we forgotten that Yoda is a Jedi Master, or is "being fueled by Revenge" a new Light Side technique, eh? And wow...You're aware of the fact that Sidious is fighting Yoda from a position which is an advantage for the Sith Lord? Because, you may have noticed it, if they would both fight on equal ground, Sidious would have to deal with the fact that he can just attack Yoda when swinging downwards, which is not the best thing to do as a swordfighter.

And at that point, you may want to chose between the two possible interpretations: Was Yoda the superior duellist because he managed to "root Sidious", as you have posted in your first "argument"? Or did the Sith Lord attempt to stay in the middle of the pod, because that was a position of advantage for him, which would lead to the suggestion, that he wouldn't be equal to Yoda on equal ground?

Yeah, right. Having to jump around on the curved surface of the chancellors podium is a great advantage for Yoda in comparison to stand on equal ground and attack from there. And I don't know where you get that "Yoda was put in the defensive" from, going by the fact that he forced Sidious out of the middle of the pod with offensive manouvers.

Borbarad

Mace Windu on par with Dooku? LOL. It's pretty obvious that Dooku is beyond Mace in terms of force abilties, considering his demonstrations throughout the saga, as well as Yoda's word on that issue. Lightsaber ability? Once more: Yoda thinks that the only person equal to Dooku in that department might be Mace Windu, meaning that even Yoda (who knows both Mace and Dooku) isn't so sure about that. Which means, technically, that Dooku could be above Mace in the saber department as well, and he definetely is when it comes to force mastery. So who's most likely going to win in a fight between those two, eh?

Are you enjoying your ignorance of the facts? Let's have a look at both fights: Against Mace, Sidious was finally "overpowered" and put on his ass, once Mace reached his upper limit. Mace > Sidious. Against Yoda, he was apparently disarmed and forced to continue the fight without a lightsaber. Yoda > Sidious.

Dooku decided to leave in all confrontations with that two individuals, in two times with entire armies on their way to get him and while his confrontations with his former Master may have been as emotional for him as they were for Yoda. So what? Not conclusive. Essentially, from what we know, you could put Dooku in the same situations Sidious was in and he might actually fare better, if we ignore the relationship between him and Yoda.

And that turns him into a superior lightsaber combatant how exactly?

And once again: Movie > novel. In fact, Anakin's cyborg arm was a complete non-issue, as we can see in the new Clone Wars movie. Hell....Dooku manages to block a full powered swing from Skywalker while holding his lightsaber with the left hand at the end of their duel on Tatooine. The fact that Anakin was able to beat the Count was coming from unleashing a great part of his full potential using his Dark emotions, which then turned all the skill of Dooku "into a joke".

Are you that stupid?

So let me rephrase that: You think that Dooku is unable to kill two Jedi who aren't even defending theirselves, despite the fact that he royally screwed almost any noteable duellist in the saga? Wow.

Then we have Fisto and Windu. So you're telling me that he can't handle Fisto and Mace not fully submerged into Vaapad, despite the fact that he kicked the living shit out of Kenobi and Skywalker during their duel on board of the Invisible Hand, before Anakin reached the zone, and the fact that he was capable to defeat Mace Windu, who was in that situations most likely fully submerged in Vaapad, during times of TPM?

In fact: Putting Dooku in that very situation, he would equally destroy the first two Jedi and then proceed by dealing with Fisto and Mace, unlike you want to tell me that Fisto and Mace are a better team than Skywalker and Kenobi.

Oh yes. Because Maul was moving with force speed in that particular situation, right? Which - given the description of the ability by Luke Skywalker in "The Essential Guide to the Force" - makes the user perceive their surroundings in some sort of slow motion. In fact, the headhuntress firing the rocket at Maul doesn't even see him moving - she just sees a hole appearing in the next wall and the Sith Lord is gone.

I wasn't talking about Anoon but about Qui-Gon Jinn when mentioning "on par with Mace". A claim coming from "The new Essential Guide to Characters" that says Qui-Gon and Mace have sparred quite often, with neither being able to defeat the other, although Qui-Gon Jinn, being 20 years older than Mace, could have done so in his youth.

Does that somehow change the fact that Maul was far away from being in "top shape"? No? Then why bring it up?

In terms of lightsaber ability? Cool. To quote "The Rock": "Just bring it!"

@Gideon:

Lmao, Gideon. Maul was just standing there and to perceive a Jedi or Sith using force speed, you would have to use the ability yourself. Likewise Maul using the ability, is not even perceived "as a blur" by the headhuntress encountering him in "Shadow Hunter". She looks at him and the next thing she sees is that the Sith Lord is gone and that a hole has appeared in the next wall. And sorry...running after a Skyhopper and catching it...850 km/h. If somebody watched that incident, not being in the skyhopper, that would have been as attempting to watch a human-size bullet passing him.

We are talking about the full extend of Maul's abilities, Gideon, which would be quite close to that blows he dealt to Sidious in utter hatred, which the Sith Lord was barely able to parry. Maul controlling his hatred could be potentially more deadly and skillful than he was at that situation. Bolsted by the fact that he forced Mace Windu's equal Qui-Gon Jinn to retreat on Tatooine and eventually killed him on Naboo.

Yes. And according to DR, Dooku still had quite some huge amount of feelings for his old Master, meaning that he, possibly, also didn't attempt to fight Yoda with all he could. One might ask who would be better in controlling his emotions: The 900 year old Jedi or the Sith Lord? And one might also ask how that fight would have gone, if both would have gone all out on each other. Which, essentially - despite Dooku's claims to the contrary, saying that he would kill Yoda - never happened.

Looking at the "proper context" we have two situatioons in which Yoda and Dooku did both probably not went all out on each other and one situation in which both combatants did do all they could to defeat their opponent. Now what? Given that we don't even know to what extend Dooku was "powered up" by Vjun and given the fact that Sidious had to leave lightsaber combat with Yoda as well , there is no conclusion to draw from there. Except that Yoda is superior to both of them in terms of lightsaber ability - which says nothing about who of them is the better lightsaber combatant.

Gideon

And where has that been proven? In the Phantom Menace, Qui-Gon Jinn catches Jar Jar Binks' tongue between his thumb and forefinger when the two are sitting down. In Boba Fett: Pursuit, Fett attempts to kill Mace Windu by shooting him with a a poisonous dart and Windu simply snatches it out of the air, while remaining stationary. In this demonstration, Sidious wields a lightsaber faster than Maul's eye can follow and outlines his body so closely that, had Maul even so much as twiched, he would have been dismembered.

Irrelevant, Nai. The bounty hunter is not Force-sensitive, so she doesn't possess the supernatural senses and reflexes afforded by a Jedi or Sith.

Using one's aggressive feelings allows for momentary advantages. Anakin Skywalker has always fought aggressively, yet it is through intense, raw anger that he is able to overcome Count Dooku. Obi-Wan Kenobi, as a padawan, when tapped into his anger, briefly put Darth Maul on the defensive. Surely you're not suggesting that Obi-Wan, if angered, could defeat Maul.

Nonsense. By Dooku's own musings, his attempt to turn Yoda to the dark side was a grievous error and the entire purpose of the sham peace conference at Vjun was to kill Yoda. Moreover, Dooku himself attacked Yoda to kill him after he distracted his former Master by hurling Whirry through the window. And as he himself stated during the fight: "I'm going to enjoy killing !"

Unlike Yoda, you can't prove that Dooku wasn't going all out, especially since all evidence points to the conclusion that he was.

Except this is false. Dooku attempted to attack Yoda when the Jedi was vulnerable and distracted and even flat-out told him during the duel that he would "enjoy" striking Yoda down. If you intend to prove that Dooku wasn't going all out, it's your burden to prove.

I could be equally petty and point out that Sidious's first goal was to simply escape. And he, unlike Dooku, had the opportunity to murder Yoda before the duel truly began (when Yoda was knocked unconscious) and chose not to do so.

Dooku was able to bring Asajj Ventress to her knees simply by lifting a finger. It doesn't matter to the extent that he was empowered, though it would imply a great deal. The fact of the matter is that he was in an environment that not only was he more familiar with personally, but metaphysically enhanced his powers. Sidious did not have those same advantages.

Dooku was admittedly overpowered on a world steeped in the dark side by a being who exhausted every effort to convert him back to the light side of the Force. Sidious's fight ended in a stalemate with that same being on a world that offered no such advantage and when the aforementioned being intended for Sidious to die.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Borbarad
Based on what?

Many, many things.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It is? Based on what exactly? It is a mere fact that Qui-Gon and Mace were equals in lightsaber combat. None of them could claim an advantage over the other, although Qui-Gon is believed to have been able to beat Mace in lightsaber combat when he was younger. Now Maul simply defeated him by superior skill. Something that Mace Windu didn't manage to do. And Dooku did defeat Mace himself as well as he did defeat a younger Qui-Gon Jinn.

Oh, come on. Different people with different styles, although they might stalemate each other, can have different results while fighting the same opponents. I'll give you an example- Obi-Wan's performance against General Grievous was considerably superior to Mace Windu's performance, although Mace is, quite undisputably, the greater swordsman. Besides, there's the entire 'superconducting loop' angle to it, which would prove highly effective against Maul.

Besides, the fact exists that Sidious was capable of dismantling Kit Fisto with apparent ease, while simultaneously dueling Mace Windu- who would be very considerably a deadlier swordsman than Qui-Gon by RotS. Kit Fisto, if we are to go by what you say, is 'on par' with RotS Obi-Wan- it's safe to assume that he is therefore vastly superior to TPM Obi-Wan. So, yes, Sidious managed to kill Kit Fisto (far superior to Obi-Wan, by TPM) while fighting with an opponent superior to Qui-Gon- all that with overwhelming ease. Maul wasn't capable of doing the same to a far inferior team.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when do force users make quantum leaps in terms of lightsaber ability and combat prowess between there 40s and there 50s, eh? You're essentially attempting to tell me that Mace Windu did develop Vaapad any further, after working on that style already for more than 20 years? And that he somehow managed to develop far more combat prowess, when he was already a living legend in times of TPM? I somehow doubt that.

You know that people tend to increase in power when they have 13 years more time to practice, in addition to 3 years of intensive front-line fighting? Yeah, Dooku had practiced Makashi for over 40 years- that certainly > Mace's original 20 years, yet Dooku constantly increased his mastery. Mace would, quite logically, be far stronger in RotS than he was in TPM. Didn't he get a noticeable power-up and grasp on Vaapad during the events of Shatterpoint?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Especially when you have Qui-Gon Jinn claiming that he could have beaten Mace, if he was younger, implying that a Jedi's overall ability in terms of combat would rather decline than improve in high age .

Force powers, if one is talented in them enough (evidently, Qui-Gon wasn't), more than make up for declining physical condition- see Sidious and Yoda. Mace was still capable of demonstrating absolutely incredible feats of speed and sheer physical power, from being able to crush durasteel with his bare hands to being called 'invisible' in comparison to Kar Vastor, an absolute physical beast.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Didn't I just explain why we shouldn't take the "superconducting loop" thing literally? And while mentioning the "glossing over evidence", you might want to present me the evidence that said "superconducting loop" would just work against Dark Siders. If one literally "feeds" upon the force powers of his opponents, just to throw them back at them, this would either work regardless of the background of the opponent or it doesn't work like this at all.

Well, I'm not in my home at the moment, so I don't have access to the novels explaining Vaapad in more depth. Although, I do remember that the RotS novel stated that Vaapad reflected Sidious' fury and dark side-enhanced wrath, enabling him to match Sidious' 'furious speed'. He's never noted to do the same against lightsiders.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He utterly owned Maul, who was already raddled by weeks of being hunted and injured. Really. It's not so that Sidious walked up to Maul in top shape and pimp-slapped him in a lightsaber duel. And Sidious was "in training" himself, when that happened, which doesn't apply for Sidious as he was in RotS.

Yeah, and Sidious still completely outclassed Maul in speed, as Gideon noted in his debate with you.

The truth is, Sidious' enhanced force abilities by RotS basically state that his force-enhanced attributes would be superior than his TPM form- meaning, he's going to be able to outclass Maul in speed even further.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And in the end, Sidious was beaten. You have to understand, once and for all, that unlike Mace - who has to sink into his Vaapad first - Dooku and Maul would be at 100 % ability in the same split second the fight starts. Once Mace did reach the upper limit of his abilities, he wasn't even in need to waste a thought on combating the Sith Lord, driving him back through the office (as seen in the movie) and able to focus on the Shatterpoint of the Sith Lord, finally disarming him.

Oh, you are implying that Mace is somehow incompetent without his Vaapad's inticrate abilities? Without any of Vaapad's advantages, he managed to single-handedly decimate an army of droids, outclass Vastor in speed, and get Dooku on the run during their duel in Obsession. He was also capable of getting Grievous on the defensive, a feat that wasn't replicated by five Jedi Masters fighting him all at once. And yet, Sidious forced him back and outclassed him when it came to the above-mentioned categories- even after Mace gained Sidious' advantages in that category, the duel was still at an 'impasse' which, supposedly, could last eternally if Mace's Shatterpoint hadn't come into play.

If we're comparing Mace Windu and Darth Sidious in pure swordmanship, Sidious is, at the very least, Mace's equal.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And you totally love to mix up the novel and the movie, right? In the novel, the both are continuing to fight on a slippery balcony. Did you see that happen in the movie? Nope? And even then, Mace was standing on equal slippery ground, which makes attempting to talk Mace's feat down by mentioning that "Sidious was standing on slippery ground" completely useless.

Alright, I'll give you that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. I'd love to see your proof for Mace being "vastly less powerful" in TPM than he was in RotS. If you've finished with the work to bring that in, you just have to proof that the "superconducting loop" does really exist and only works against Dark Siders. And then you just have to find an explanation, how Dooku could beat Mace Windu, who was already training in Vaapad for 27 years and had the advantage of his Shatterpoint ability already. After which you just have to argue around the fact that, following Yoda's judgement, Mace and Dooku are still equals in times of DR .

And yet you have the fact that in a brief duel in Obsession, Mace- likely without having sufficient time to 'sink into Vaapad'- forced Dooku on the run. Dooku isn't the cowardly sort- he regularly likes to pit his abilities versus the Jedi's, and he wouldn't run away from a duel unless there was the large possibility of him being defeated and killed.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh what the hell, newbie?

Umm... is calling me a 'newbie' repeatedly supposed to offend me?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Elements appearing in the novel and not in the movie are just C-Canon. Fact. The script, written by Lucas himself, is a G-Canon source and because of that it superceedes the novel. Aside of that the idea that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda is not contradicted by the movie, as the respective scene would happen between the last lightsaber sequence and the pod throwing sequence - which the movie doesn't show. The idea that Sidious was disarmed by Yoda is just contradicted by the novels interpretation of the fight , which is still superceeded by the G-Canon script. I'm afraid.

The script only exists for the purpose of giving the movie a distinct 'layout'- indeed, it therefore only applies directly to what we see within the movie. Therefore, the novel, which was directly, word-by-word, approved by George Lucas himself, was released to the masses as means of getting a more detailed version of the movie- the actual fight scene between Sidious and Yoda didn't depict Yoda outclassing and disarming Sidious. Therefore, there is no absolute evidence to conclude that Yoda disarmed Sidious.

And don't you think that GL would have bothered to include an event as important as disarming an opponent within the duel, if it indeed happened?

Gideon

Originally posted by Borbarad
Qui-Gon was preparing himself in order to catch Jar Jar's tongue. He did warn him not to do that again, correct?

After he caught the tongue, yes.

Most Force sensitives (all of the disciplined ones) demonstrate some sort of precognition in battle.

That's preposterous, Nai. Why couldn't he replicate the same feat in combat? This isn't some esoteric Force ritual or a Force Storm; it's Force-empowered speed. That it was a demonstration is irrelevant. It's not as if Maul was comatose or otherwise occupied during the experiment.

I haven't seen the source in question. I am only going on the statement from Publius, where it says that Darth Sidious demonstrated the ability to "move faster than Darth Maul's eye could follow."

Obviously the Jedi are equipped with supernatural senses and perception, Nai, hence why they are able to perform many of their feats.

That's not the question. If your contention is that an always angry opponent will deliver the same effects, I direct you to Maul's doomed fight against Obi-Wan. Kenobi gained the upper hand by unleashing his anger. If we apply your logic, if Kenobi had continued to fight angry, he would have crushed Maul, regardless of Maul's superior training, skills, and abilities.

That's right.

In Attack of the Clones, Labyrinth of Evil, and even the initial discussion between Sidious and Dooku in Revenge of the Sith, Dooku betrays a reluctance to kill Obi-Wan Kenobi, citing that, as Qui-Gon's padawan, " is practically my grandson." He clearly respects Kenobi on a level that he doesn't with Skywalker, even through his musings without their battle.

But he casts this aside when Sidious essentially tells him "No, you've gotta kill him."

This is, by the way, the same Count who has murdered two of his former best friends. Don't presume that Dooku's attachment is anything like Yoda's.

Referring to the being who had been his mentor, what? Twice, three, four times as long as Sidious has been? Old habits and all that.

He's not exactly a sadist on Palpatine's level. But when it came down to the actual fight, he visibly expressed his desire to murder Yoda. In fact, that is not the only time he muses about it. I recall one such musing within the novel that he wanted to "turn over Yoda's head on a platter" to Sidious.

Already addressed, Nai. Really, it's a paper-thin argument. The contention that their feelings were somehow the same is ridiculous.

And it wouldn't mean a thing. I'm not interested in your personal attacks on a specific character. I'm simply pointing out that I, actually, can also be as petty as you're being and come closer to making my point from it. The simple directive is stop being petty, Nai. It's not quite on Janus's "LOL YODA OWNED SIDIOUS" and "Dooku fared well against Yoda twice" but it is annoying and it is unnecessary. I'm simply going to ask you to be fair about it.

He's brought her to her knees simply by lifting a finger?

Counterpoint: Yoda has been to both of those places before. Not Vjun.

No, Nai. You've tried this argument before. "Well, we don't know how much enhanced powers ergo we can ignore it." You can't. Like it or not, Dooku chose Vjun specifically to lure Yoda there. Not to mention the whole planet was a Confederacy world, littered with armament. Hell, he even put a missile in high orbit for save measure. He chose it, out of the vast Confederacy territory, to ensure that he held the upper hand, regardless of the Force or forces, when Yoda arrived.

And it didn't work.

According to the script, yes.

True. Though Palpatine has two little differences:

a.) He disarmed Yoda as well. Dooku? Never been so fortunate. Not even on a world that enhanced his powers.

b.) He forced Yoda to flee. Dooku? Never been so fortunate. Not even on a world that enhanced his powers.

That one combatant fought Yoda in an environment with no metaphysical advantages and forced a stalemate. Was he disarmed? According to the script. But, equally so, according to the movies, Yoda was, in turn, disarmed by Sidious. And then forced to flee. Dooku couldn't replicate those feats on a world steeped in the dark side. To contend that their feats are somehow equal is ridiculous. Sidious did a better job even when he lacked Dooku's advantages.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Borbarad
Actually, by Dooku's thoughts throughout DR, one can make the assumption that he was also holding back against his former Master, which makes this situation a complete non-issue.
Yoda still kicked his ass while they were fighting on Vjun. I daresay that Sidious, being Yoda's equal on neutral ground, would be capable of defeating Yoda on Vjun, a dark side-empowered planet.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And Yoda is "bloodlusted"? Have we forgotten that Yoda is a Jedi Master, or is "being fueled by Revenge" a new Light Side technique, eh? And wow...You're aware of the fact that Sidious is fighting Yoda from a position which is an advantage for the Sith Lord? Because, you may have noticed it, if they would both fight on equal ground, Sidious would have to deal with the fact that he can just attack Yoda when swinging downwards, which is not the best thing to do as a swordfighter.
Um, you know that that's, like, Yoda's style to jump circles around his opponent. And you know that he managed to hold the central position? Really, the only time Yoda managed to force him out of the central position, Sidious pushed him away from it, despite it being supposedly a 'position of advantage', which Yoda would want to keep at all costs. Indeed, Yoda was forced to jump so much basically means that he had a hard time actually standing before Sidious' full assault.
If Yoda was indeed Sidious' far superior in the lightsaber department, he wouldn't have supposedly lost the 'position of advantage'.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And at that point, you may want to chose between the two possible interpretations: Was Yoda the superior duellist because he managed to "root Sidious", as you have posted in your first "argument"? Or did the Sith Lord attempt to stay in the middle of the pod, because that was a position of advantage for him, which would lead to the suggestion, that he wouldn't be equal to Yoda on equal ground?

Oh my f*cking god. The only time Yoda briefly gained the center of the pod location, Sidious forced him back into jumping around. So, yeah, Sidious was capable of maintaing the supposed superior position- if Yoda was indeed superior, he would've been capable of staying in it after he forced Sidious out of it. He failed epically.
Face it- Yoda and Sidious are equals in lightsaber combat, which is more than I can say for Dooku.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Mace Windu on par with Dooku? LOL. It's pretty obvious that Dooku is beyond Mace in terms of force abilties, considering his demonstrations throughout the saga, as well as Yoda's word on that issue. Lightsaber ability? Once more: Yoda thinks that the only person equal to Dooku in that department might be Mace Windu, meaning that even Yoda (who knows both Mace and Dooku) isn't so sure about that. Which means, technically, that Dooku could be above Mace in the saber department as well, and he definetely is when it comes to force mastery. So who's most likely going to win in a fight between those two, eh?

'Force abilities'? Oh, come ON. Dooku is a force beast, but Mace's feats aren't exactly outclassed and destroyed by him. As I've said before, his feats, in their sheer power, trump Dooku's.
And, besides, Obsession depicts them as complete equals at best- with Yoda having to run away likely before Mace would have the sufficient time to 'sink into Vaapad' against him. Their actual duel > observations from a fallible, albeit reliable third party. Sorry, by RotS, Mace possesses almost every advantage outside of grace, finesse, and technical ability- from physical strength (smashing durasteel with his bare hands), to speed ('multiple visible blades', depicted as 'invisible' in comparison to Kar Vastor, a physical beast possessing a raw power than rivals Yoda's), to physical conditioning and stamina. Oh, and did I mention that Sidious outclassed Mace in similar attributes? Oh, that's right, I did.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Are you enjoying your ignorance of the facts? Let's have a look at both fights: Against Mace, Sidious was finally "overpowered" and put on his ass, once Mace reached his upper limit. Mace > Sidious. Against Yoda, he was apparently disarmed and forced to continue the fight without a lightsaber. Yoda > Sidious.

Right. Sidious > Mace's natural abilities, and Sidious = Yoda. I've already proven that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Dooku decided to leave in all confrontations with that two individuals, in two times with entire armies on their way to get him and while his confrontations with his former Master may have been as emotional for him as they were for Yoda. So what? Not conclusive. Essentially, from what we know, you could put Dooku in the same situations Sidious was in and he might actually fare better, if we ignore the relationship between him and Yoda.

Oh, I'm sure that you believe that Dooku thought something like "Hmm... well, this confrontation is boring. Killing Mace and Yoda would be anti-climatic, so I better run!". He ran away because he was incapable of defeating them- being an arrogant person, he wouldn't run away unless he's in real danger and is met with someone equal or superior to himself.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And that turns him into a superior lightsaber combatant how exactly?

It makes him a more powerful individual and force user, which almost directly applies to lightsaber combat. This is why Anakin tooled Dooku, among other things.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And once again: Movie > novel. In fact, Anakin's cyborg arm was a complete non-issue, as we can see in the new Clone Wars movie. Hell....Dooku manages to block a full powered swing from Skywalker while holding his lightsaber with the left hand at the end of their duel on Tatooine. The fact that Anakin was able to beat the Count was coming from unleashing a great part of his full potential using his Dark emotions, which then turned all the skill of Dooku "into a joke".

Huh? The movie depicts Anakin constantly forcing back Dooku and preventing him from getting the upper hand, even while he was leading him up the staircases- before he was pissed off and while he wasn't working with Obi-Wan. The novel is canonical, and really, it's narration and explanation of canon > your observations.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Borbarad
So let me rephrase that: You think that Dooku is unable to kill two Jedi who aren't even defending theirselves, despite the fact that he royally screwed almost any noteable duellist in the saga? Wow.

WOW. Way to go. Two of the greatest bladesbeings in the Order who are aware of their target's position as the Sith Master and have their lightsabers ignited and are in a combat stance aren't defending themselves? How very logical. Sorry, Dooku would never have been capable of decimating them the same way Sidious did- by killing them with 'blinding' speed before even Mace Windu could react. The same Windu who has speed feats that more than rival Dooku's.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Then we have Fisto and Windu. So you're telling me that he can't handle Fisto and Mace not fully submerged into Vaapad, despite the fact that he kicked the living shit out of Kenobi and Skywalker during their duel on board of the Invisible Hand, before Anakin reached the zone, and the fact that he was capable to defeat Mace Windu, who was in that situations most likely fully submerged in Vaapad, during times of TPM?

RIGHT. Which is why they forced Dooku back, why he acknowledged that they- 'clowns'- could potentially defeat him, and why Anakin destroyed him in combat. Oh, and why Obi-Wan managed to shock him with a 'bewilderingly fast' defensive maneuver.
There is no f*cking way Dooku would have been capable of decimating Fisto in five seconds while fighting against Mace Windu, who has, individually, got him on the run during Obsession. By RotS, Dooku simply isn't capable of defeating Mace Windu in a lightsaber duel- hell, Dooku was even forced to rely on his super battle droids ('cheating', which he abhorred, being a so-called 'gentleman' and honorable fighter) in order to separate the team that was overpowering him, and could only get rid of Obi-Wan via the force- saberwise, he was incapable of penetrating Obi-Wan's defense. While I don't think that Kit is Obi-Wan's equal in RotS, he's close, and actually lasted much less time versus Sidious in comparison to how long Obi-Wan lasted against Dooku in AotC, despite Fisto fighting in tandem with Mace Windu and being considerably superior to AotC Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Borbarad
In fact: Putting Dooku in that very situation, he would equally
destroy the first two Jedi and then proceed by dealing with Fisto and Mace, unlike you want to tell me that Fisto and Mace are a better team than Skywalker and Kenobi.

Yes, he would move with as much speed as Palpatine and be able to destroy two of the best swordsman in the Order's history before Mace Windu could comprehend what happened, and would then destroy Fisto and force Mace back. 'Cause, you know, he's totally much stronger than Windu and like a gazillion times better than Fisto. He's able to move as fast as Palpatine, too, and Kolar and Tiin weren't even putting up a defense, although they were aware of their target's position as an extremely dangerous Sith Lord, had their lightsabers ignited, and were in a combat stance. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh yes. Because Maul was moving with force speed in that particular situation, right? Which - given the description of the ability by Luke Skywalker in "The Essential Guide to the Force" - makes the user perceive their surroundings in some sort of slow motion. In fact, the headhuntress firing the rocket at Maul doesn't even see him moving - she just sees a hole appearing in the next wall and the Sith Lord is gone.

This doesn't change the fact that Palpatine's speed was beyond Maul's comprehension- I'm sure you don't want to make a case for Maul being faster than Sidious, right? This is pathetic. Sidious is far faster than Maul. He's also faster than Mace, and, for that matter, Dooku.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Does that somehow change the fact that Maul was far away from being in "top shape"? No? Then why bring it up?

No- but he was logically channeling his rage and pain in order to attempt to get a surprise attack on Sidious, who, after a few blows, disarmed Maul with a training saber, despite holding back.

Gideon

Yeah, I'm surprised at how petty Nai is being over this issue. I thought we'd all moved past that. Though I will give Nai props for not going down Janus's embarrassing avenue. You did a pretty good job, Crimzon.

Master Crimzon

Compliment's appreciated. big grin

I kind of lol'd when we posted our arguments at basically the exact time. That was funny.

Vorpal Ruin

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm an idiot.

Well, everyone can concede now. Hes clearly right.
Good job Master Crimzon, you are a hero.

Master Crimzon

Supercrimz?

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
After he caught the tongue, yes.

And he was focusing on catching it before. So?

I wonder what this has to do with seeing things that move with a considerable speed. There is a difference between knowing (by precognition) that some fast object comes flying at you and seeing the bullet flying at you.

Maul wasn't moving nor was he using force speed. Obviously Sidious had to focus on nothing but his force speed in that particular situation and Maul, if he had used force enhanced speed, turning the enviroment into "slow motion", would obviously have been able to perceive Sidious better. Got the point now?

It's the same situation in which he runs his lightsaber so fast around Maul's body that the blade is leaving a blur around the Sith Apprentice.

Duh? The only supernatural ability they have in terms of senses is precognition. Did you ever see a Jedi that saw, heared, smelled, tasted (etc) something better than a regular human being? Automatically?

The Dark Side does boost the combat abilities of Dark Side users. Which means that a Sith Lord always stays in that particular "combat boosted" state. Which just means that a Sith not using the Dark Side would probably be a less powerful combatant. I was merely pointing out that Maul attacking Sidious "in anger" would be not much different to Maul attacking people like he always does.

Yes. And what happens? Dooku does not kill Kenobi. If he was so eager to do it, he could simply have cut the Jedi Master in half while suspending him mid-air with his telekinesis. Instead he just tossed him through the room, knocking him out. And then he merely trapped him with the metal construction, rather then crushing him with it. Doesn't appear to me as if Dooku did want to kill Kenobi at any cost.

Apparently, you got me wrong. I was not assuming that Dooku held back on an equal degree to Yoda. I was merely asserting that he wasn't giving all he could against the Jedi Master.

What kind of "fairness" is it, you expecting from me, Gideon. You're comparing different situations with different people involved having different feelings to their opponent - just to come up with the conclusion that Sidious > Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability, while claiming - at the very same time - that considering lightsaber skill, Dooku is at least Sidious equal. Do you see the fact that this doesn't make much sense?

No, Gideon. Apparently you aren't getting the point. The point is that Dooku and Sidious were both defeated by Yoda in lightsaber combat - forced to retreat from the battle. What you are attempting here is to put Sidious above Dooku, because Dooku was on a world which enhanced his Dark Side abilities while said action happened.

And that doesn't make any sense, unless you can quantify the amount of power Dooku gained from being there. Especially when Dooku lasts longer in his lightsaber fight with Yoda in AotC (on a "neutral" world), while confronting the Jedi on equal ground (where Sidious was in a position of advantage for most of their duel) and was also able to still ably some nice force manouver while engaging Yoda in a saber lock.

Yet somehow, you simply write that off with "But Yoda was holding back", which also doesn't make much sense in the circumstances of a lightsaber fight. Did Yoda enhance his physical abilities to a lesser degree than he did against Sidious? Was he displaying bladework not on par with what he applied against Sidious? No. If you "hold back" in armed combat, you would still attempt to overwhelm your opponent with all you have, with the exception of using killing blows against him. I didn't see Yoda being close to disarm or - in any sense - defeat Dooku when the Sith Lord decided to run.

Which is a not contradicted G-Canon source, which means that it's a fact until Lucas says it didn't happen.

Yes. In a split second after Yoda did some nice leap to follow the Sith Lord who was practically waiting for him and was landing on a curved surface. Really. Imagine Dooku in Sidious position there, attempting to do the same - and then tell me he wouldn't have managed to do that.

And once more: Put Dooku in the same position at the same place. The result would essentially be the same, given that Yoda would once more just redirect the lightning being fired against him and Dooku would just again deflect it back, as he did in AotC. If an explosion should happen, you would once more have Yoda dropping from the edge of the pod while Dooku would probably stay up there.

Sidious lacked Dooku's advantages, Gideon? He had a position of advantage when fighting Yoda with a lightsaber - something Dooku never had. He had a superior position when he disarmed the Jedi Master - once more a situation in which Dooku never found himself in. And Sidious, despite of that, was first disarmed and then overpowered in the force contest. To conclude from this that he "did better" against Yoda then Dooku did in AotC is simply ridiculous.

Not because I believe that Dooku did an equal or even better job against Yoda. No. Just because you can't compare the fights at all. Face it: Dooku and Sidious both had advantages while fighting the Jedi Master. In Dooku's case it was Yoda not wanting to kill him and him being aided by the Dark Side power of Vjun . Sidious held a position of advantage during their lightsaber duel as well as he held the superior position while disarming him and during their force contest.

Yet the result of the lightsaber fights, in both cases, is Yoda overcoming his respective opponent. So since you can't compare the advantages , you also can't compare his two opponents. The only reasonable conclusion you can draw from that two fights is, that Yoda is superior to Dooku and Sidious as well in terms of lightsaber ability.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yoda still kicked his ass while they were fighting on Vjun. I daresay that Sidious, being Yoda's equal on neutral ground, would be capable of defeating Yoda on Vjun, a dark side-empowered planet.

Since when, in the blue hell, is Sidious Yoda's equal on neutral ground. Fighting Yoda, while maintaining a position of advantage twice himself, he gets disarmed and then overpowered in the force contest by Yoda. That means he's not even "equal" to Yoda, when he fights him out of a position of advantage. Which would mean that he isn't Yoda's equal on neutral ground. I'm afraid.

God damn it. How often can one single being contradict himself in one damn paragraph?

a) The middle of the pod is a position of advantage for Sidious, because standing on a higher ground negates the defensive advantage Yoda has due to his size. Simple fact. Vice versa it's not a position of advantage for Yoda, because having Sidious standing on the higher ground there would mean that either Sidious has to kneel down to continue the fight, or Yoda has to jump up to the Sith Lord.

b) What is it now? Either it's "Yoda's style" to jump around that much, or he was forced by Sidious to do so. In fact it's the first. Thank you for having no argument.

c) There is no position of advantage for Yoda on that pod, unless he and Sidious would be standing on equal ground, which would make it harder for Sidious to fight the small Jedi Master. Does that happen? No.

d) Thanks for ignoring the end of the lightsaber duel, which has Yoda disarming Sidious. End of story. Yoda > Sidious in lightsaber combat.

www.sidious-was-disarmed.com/dont-argue-it-idiot.html

Yeah. Correct, Molly.
The only real "powerful" feats we see from Mace Windu are linked to telekinesis - are department that Dooku was known for having mastered to an extremely high degree - he even gave lessons in the art when he was a Jedi Master. Still Dooku is, by all available source, put about Mace Windu in the force department and - his greatest advantage - he is known for employing force attacks during lightsaber combat.

They do hardly even cross their blades during the duel so how in the blue hell do you want to draw conclusions from that? Especially since it just happens in a comic without any comments from a narrator? Really.

The facts look like that:
- Yoda claims that Mace is "maybe" equal to the Count in lightsaber ability
- Dooku did defeat Mace before and did also defeat Mace's equal in lightsaber combat before - the latter with apparent ease as I should mention, while Jinn was in a better condition, according to his own words.
- Mace in LoE has some problems with Grievous - a combatant that Dooku also with much effort completely controlled during their sparing sessions, despite Grievous lightsaber abilities
- Dooku's style is still the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat. It's designed for the single purpose to fight other force users

Strength? You did hear about that nice Shatterpoint ability, didn't ya? If the guy is capable of breaking a Corusca gem by simply touching it, I don't think he needs much actual strength to put his fists through durasteel. Actually the scene on Haruun Kal, where he almost breaks the arm of one guy by simply grapping it would be a more powerful demonstration of his physical strength. But then, again, Dooku was capable of matching the cyborg arm of Anakin Skywalker, stopping a full-powered swing from the young Jedi - while holding his lightsaber with his left hand.

Speed? That is determined by force mastery and if Dooku wasn't fast, then I don't see how he could have defeated a younger Mace Windu, a younger Qui-Gon or survive against Yoda for more than 5 seconds.

Physical condition and stamina? Dooku was descriped being as fit as a man half of his age , aside from the fact that he could "refresh" himself in a split second, using the Dark Side of the force.

Oh yes. You've already "proven" that. I wonder how you managed to do that, since that would be arguing against the highest form of canon. Oh. Ups.

Yeah. Let's just ignore the freaking fact that he had an entire army of clones coming after him in AotC and Obsessions. But that, of course, could have nothing to do with the fact that he decided to run. Right.

Oh sure, sir. Every powerful force user, not having helt a lightsaber in hand for a decade, will just flick one off his sleeve and defeat the epitome of lightsaber technique in the PT era, who studied the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" for about seven decades. Sure.

I wonder. Does "Clone Wars movie" sound soooo similar to "Revenge of the Sith movie" or are you simply inable to read? Clone Wars movie. Dooku duelling Anakin on Tatooine. Dooku flicks out holo-device to show Anakin that his Padawan is in danger. Anakin starts a full-power assault on Dooku, and Dooku blocks the hit, while holding his lightsaber with his left hand. According to you, Anakin should have forced Dooku's own lightsaber into the Sith Lords body. Just didn't happen. Why? Because Dooku is able to match Anakin's strength. Fact.

And sorry. The claims in the RotS novel are simply stupid if you consider the fact that Dooku is a fencer who would never attempt to "parry" swings in a classical fashion but alter the direction of the attacks. Which he, in fact, also does in the movie, one-handed, even while being driven back by Anakin just before Anakin disarms him.

Borbarad

Excuse me, you pathetic excuse for somebody capable of using logic. The movie has about eight seconds passing, between Sidious igniting his lightsaber and the first Jedi going down. In that eight second the two Jedi who die first DON'T MOVE AN INCH. So no. There was no defensive coming from them. Fact.

Yeah. Because Dooku has just been shown to literally destroy anybody he encountered in the matter of seconds in "all out fights" due to his vastly superior duelling and force abilities. Including the likes of Ventress, Sora Bulq and Tholme , Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker . Sorry. Out of that four Jedi, who walked into Sidious office, only Mace does compare to Dooku - and even he only when fully submerged into his Vaapad. The others won't stand a chance.

And why he had one of them out of the fight and the other sitting on his ass in less than a minute into the fight. Hooray.

He manages to get rid of a Vaapad practicioner while fending of Tholme at the same time in about five seconds. He also managed to f*ck up Kenobi while controlling Anakin at the same time. So what? And yes. Now Mace alone made him run in Obsession. Of course. It has nothing to do with a freaking army attempting to capture Dooku, nor with the fact that the Count had to save Grievous.

Prove it or shut up, newbie. He did it before, all evidence points to him still being superior to Windu. You don't have an argument. End of story.

You are aware of the goddamn fact that Dooku is known for applying force attacks in lightsaber duels, right? He knocks out Kenobi, Ventress and Bulq with such manouvers. Two of them in 2vs1 situations. What stops him from doing the same to Kit Fisto? Nothing? Correct, Sir! Unless you want to tell me that Mace Windu, not fully submerged into Vaapad, would be as good with a lightsaber as Anakin Skywalker, I don't see anything preventing the Count from force pwning his opposition. I'm afraid.

Excuse me, idiot. The only one that actually does comprehend what happens, when Sidious jumps on the Jedi, is Mace Windu, who is seen moving into a defensive stance when Sidious comes flying at the Jedi. No reaction from Kolar, Tiin or Fisto. The first two die in exactly the same stance they were in, before Sidious did even ignite his lightsaber.

Keep arguing against the movie as long as you want. Tiin and Kolar are not moving to defend themselves. They just stand there and get saber raped, without moving an inch. Fact.

Put Dooku in that situation: There is no way that more than two of the Jedi would be able to attack him in that office. And unless any pair you could come up with would exceed Bulq + Tholme or Anakin + Obi-Wan, he would commit the same combination of force and saber rape then he does to the teams mentioned before.

Like every damn persons speed, if said person was using force speed would be "beyond Maul's comprehension". And hell. Sidious is faster than Maul who isn't moving at all. Woaaaah. Or is he just faster than Maul, after the latter was injured, raddled and hungry? Gre-he-he-at. Hey...I bet I can run faster than Anakin Skywalker in the state he was in, just after Kenobi cut his legs off and he took a lava bath. I must be god.

Oh my god. A Sith Lord channeling his rage in order to attack somebody? Jesus Christ. Did you ever see that happen before? And yes. After barely parrying Maul's blows, and Maul moving from his spontaneous force rage back to tired, hungry, injured individual again, Sidious disarmed him while holding back. How, in the blue hell, does that mean he can do the same to Maul in top shape? Especially, if you consider, that this isn't TPM "fit with a lightsaber" Sidious but RotS "I didn't touch such a weapon for a decade" Sidious.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when, in the blue hell, is Sidious Yoda's equal on neutral ground. Fighting Yoda, while maintaining a position of advantage twice himself, he gets disarmed and then overpowered in the force contest by Yoda. That means he's not even "equal" to Yoda, when he fights him out of a position of advantage. Which would mean that he isn't Yoda's equal on neutral ground. I'm afraid.

Did you degenerate from ignoring evidence to actual lying? It wasn't Sidious who was disarmed and then thrown down to the floor. Yoda and Sidious, I'm sorry to tell you, were evenly matched for the force duel- hell, due to his superior intelligence and combat tactical ability, Sidious was capable of getting the high ground (he escaped Yoda disarmed? Really? So either Yoda is a dumbass, Sidious is way faster than Yoda, or Yoda didn't disarm him. I choose the latter) and beating on Yoda with the senate pods. Yoda could barely gain the offensive, and it took him considerably more concentration to levitate and hurl the senate pod.

Originally posted by Borbarad
God damn it. How often can one single being contradict himself in one damn paragraph?

a) The middle of the pod is a position of advantage for Sidious, because standing on a higher ground negates the defensive advantage Yoda has due to his size. Simple fact. Vice versa it's not a position of advantage for Yoda, because having Sidious standing on the higher ground there would mean that either Sidious has to kneel down to continue the fight, or Yoda has to jump up to the Sith Lord.

Right, because Yoda TOTALLY curbstomped Sidious when they fought in Palpatine's offices. Sorry, they were- from what we've seen- perfectly even, there. If we're to go by the movie, it was actually Yoda who jumped on the pod, originally, implying that Sidious could have gotten into it and forced him out of it- just like he did later on, for the brief moment that Yoda was capable of forcing him out of that position.

Really, if Yoda >>> Sidious in a lightsaber duel, Yoda wouldn't have been forced out of the center of the pod. He wasn't once able to gain a proper offensive in the battle- for the close-ups we see, Sidious is constantly hacking at Yoda, not the other way around.

Originally posted by Borbarad
b) What is it now? Either it's "Yoda's style" to jump around that much, or he was forced by Sidious to do so. In fact it's the first. Thank you for having no argument.

Okay.

Originally posted by Borbarad
c) There is no position of advantage for Yoda on that pod, unless he and Sidious would be standing on equal ground, which would make it harder for Sidious to fight the small Jedi Master. Does that happen? No.

It does, in the beginning of the fight, and Yoda apparently initiates the pod combat. Either he's an idiot, or he prefers to be there. In fact, Sidious was capable of countering his every move during their original engagement.

In addition, Yoda wasn't capable of maintaining the central position even when he forced Sidious out of there. So, if we're to go by your logic, Sidious got the 'position of advantage' even though Yoda was there. You really think Yoda's superior to him?

Originally posted by Borbarad
d) Thanks for ignoring the end of the lightsaber duel, which has Yoda disarming Sidious. End of story. Yoda > Sidious in lightsaber combat.

No, he didn't, and you haven't come close to proving it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
www.sidious-was-disarmed.com/dont-argue-it-idiot.html

That's supposed to be funny? Or is it supposed to compensate for a lack of a proper argument?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Correct, Molly.
The only real "powerful" feats we see from Mace Windu are linked to telekinesis - are department that Dooku was known for having mastered to an extremely high degree - he even gave lessons in the art when he was a Jedi Master. Still Dooku is, by all available source, put about Mace Windu in the force department and - his greatest advantage - he is known for employing force attacks during lightsaber combat.

Sheer power =/= overall skill with the force. Dooku has never demonstrated a feat that requires the power of decimating hundreds of droids with a force wave, or crushing durasteel with a dark side technique. Of course Dooku's mastery of the force is superior, but I Mace is easily his superior in pure power and sheer scale of force attacks.

Originally posted by Borbarad
They do hardly even cross their blades during the duel so how in the blue hell do you want to draw conclusions from that? Especially since it just happens in a comic without any comments from a narrator? Really.

I'll give you that, true. Maybe you can post the scans so we can more properly analyze the duel?

Originally posted by Borbarad
The facts look like that:
- Yoda claims that Mace is "maybe" equal to the Count in lightsaber ability

'On equal ground'. Vaapad and Shatterpoint are advantages that negate the 'equal ground'- in sheer lightsaber ability, Dooku is easily Mace's superior. I'd even argue that he is the most technically skilled swordsman of the PT.
-Originally posted by Borbarad
Dooku did defeat Mace before and did also defeat Mace's equal in lightsaber combat before - the latter with apparent ease as I should mention, while Jinn was in a better condition, according to his own words.

Hmm...? Where is it recorded that Dooku beat a 'peak' Qui-Gon?

And, he beat Mace when Mace was considerably less powerful. Don't gloss over that information.

Originally posted by Borbarad
- Mace in LoE has some problems with Grievous - a combatant that Dooku also with much effort completely controlled during their sparing sessions, despite Grievous lightsaber abilities

Very much true, but I don't see how it adds to your points. Both have had 'some problems' with Grievous- however, in both recorded duels of them going up against Grievous, Grievous wielded two lightsabers- not four. And Grievous, being incapable of producing force energy, would make Vaapad's separate advantages utterly useless.

Originally posted by Borbarad
- Dooku's style is still the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat. It's designed for the single purpose to fight other force users

And Vaapad is the deadliest form in existence. With it, he can overcome otherwise superior swordsman, like Sidious. By all means and displays, Mace certainly isn't Dooku's inferior in terms of 'regular' swordsmanship.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Strength? You did hear about that nice Shatterpoint ability, didn't ya? If the guy is capable of breaking a Corusca gem by simply touching it, I don't think he needs much actual strength to put his fists through durasteel. Actually the scene on Haruun Kal, where he almost breaks the arm of one guy by simply grapping it would be a more powerful demonstration of his physical strength. But then, again, Dooku was capable of matching the cyborg arm of Anakin Skywalker, stopping a full-powered swing from the young Jedi - while holding his lightsaber with his left hand.

That's a considerably different matter and you know it. All things considered, Anakin hadn't displayed the physical strength of Mace Windu. In addition, nothing records the utilizing of his Shatterpoint ability against those droids- there's no reason to assume that he did, considering he simply ripped apart durasteel and broke it with his bare hands. If there's no narrator, or proof (for example, if it was written in some data book that "Using his Shatterpoint ability, bla, bla bla...) that he actually utilized it, we have to assume that he didn't.

He also happens to be more built, better conditioned, and younger than Dooku. That helps.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Speed? That is determined by force mastery and if Dooku wasn't fast, then I don't see how he could have defeated a younger Mace Windu, a younger Qui-Gon or survive against Yoda for more than 5 seconds.

Of course he's fast. But Yoda severely outclassed him in speed- the entire description of their fight in the AotC novel explains how Yoda easily avoided all of his attacks and jumped all over him. He never displayed the same speed superiority against, say, Sidious.

I would argue that Dooku is slower than Mace, Sidious, and Yoda, at least in the PT. Of course, speed isn't the only factor in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Physical condition and stamina? Dooku was descriped being as fit as a man half of his age , aside from the fact that he could "refresh" himself in a split second, using the Dark Side of the force.

Oh, and you don't think Mace was more fit than the average 50 or so old? His physical displays prove that. And, unlike Dooku in his fight with Anakin, there's no record of Mace being severely tired, either.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh yes. You've already "proven" that. I wonder how you managed to do that, since that would be arguing against the highest form of canon. Oh. Ups.

Except the highest form of canon does not, in any conceivable way, contradict that.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Let's just ignore the freaking fact that he had an entire army of clones coming after him in AotC and Obsessions. But that, of course, could have nothing to do with the fact that he decided to run. Right.

It could. Once again, scans might help.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh sure, sir. Every powerful force user, not having helt a lightsaber in hand for a decade, will just flick one off his sleeve and defeat the epitome of lightsaber technique in the PT era, who studied the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" for about seven decades. Sure.

Said powerful force users possesses force abilities and speed far beyond Dooku's own- he is also a 'master of every weapon and every' form, which, at the very least, could mean that he has mastered several forms himself. His feat of wiping out three of the Order's greatest swordsman in seconds, while fighting Mace Windu simultaneously, > anything Dooku's done. He also fared better against a more 'unleashed' Yoda.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I wonder. Does "Clone Wars movie" sound soooo similar to "Revenge of the Sith movie" or are you simply inable to read? Clone Wars movie. Dooku duelling Anakin on Tatooine. Dooku flicks out holo-device to show Anakin that his Padawan is in danger. Anakin starts a full-power assault on Dooku, and Dooku blocks the hit, while holding his lightsaber with his left hand. According to you, Anakin should have forced Dooku's own lightsaber into the Sith Lords body. Just didn't happen. Why? Because Dooku is able to match Anakin's strength. Fact.

Accurate. In RotS, however, he is no longer capable of matching Anakin blow-to-blow.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And sorry. The claims in the RotS novel are simply stupid if you consider the fact that Dooku is a fencer who would never attempt to "parry" swings in a classical fashion but alter the direction of the attacks. Which he, in fact, also does in the movie, one-handed, even while being driven back by Anakin just before Anakin disarms him.

LOL, so your opinion of Dooku's style > the narration of a canonical source approved by the ultimate canon? Sorry, bro, that ain't true.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me, you pathetic excuse for somebody capable of using logic. The movie has about eight seconds passing, between Sidious igniting his lightsaber and the first Jedi going down. In that eight second the two Jedi who die first DON'T MOVE AN INCH. So no. There was no defensive coming from them. Fact.

Oh, please. So, you're saying that two of the best bladesbeings in the Jedi Order's history- Agen Kolar is given such praise by the omniscent narrator, too- just sat there and went "Hmm... that guy who just drew a lightsaber and lunged at us is probably going to come quietly. I shouldn't try to defend. He seems like a very peaceful fellow."? No way. Even according to the databank, it was purely Palpatine's 'blinding speed' that enabled him to kill three Jedi Masters in instants- they were not capable of defending because Palpatine moved too fast for them to comprehend, although they drew their lightsabers and were logically prepared to fight. Dooku had never once displayed speeds even approaching that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Because Dooku has just been shown to literally destroy anybody he encountered in the matter of seconds in "all out fights" due to his vastly superior duelling and force abilities. Including the likes of Ventress, Sora Bulq and Tholme , Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker . Sorry. Out of that four Jedi, who walked into Sidious office, only Mace does compare to Dooku - and even he only when fully submerged into his Vaapad. The others won't stand a chance.

Anakin Skywalker turned Dooku into an utter joke, first of all.

While I will give you that no single person there, aside from Mace, will stand a chance against Dooku in an all-out fight, Fisto is far more skilled than AotC Kenobi (who Dooku didn't kill in one second), and Kolar, regarding the fact that the omniscent narrator held him and Mace to be the perfect team to counter Sidious, is implied to be even more skilled. Both of them are likely to give Dooku an 'okay' fight in a lightsaber duel.

And Mace, while not submerged in Vaapad, has feats of physical prowess superior to the Count's own- his speed is greater, his style is deadlier, and- aside from being able to replicate the Count's advantages via Vaapad, he also possesses the Shatterpoint ability, which he likely mastered to a far greater extent than he had in TPM. I'll certainly give him the nod over Dooku in a lightsaber duel.

Besides, even if Mace and Sidious were to duel again, there's no full guarantee that Mace will just beat him down again. Indeed, the three Jedi essentially functioned as human shields, enabling Mace to comprehend the situation- there exists the possibility that Sidious will be able to simply blitz him and defeat him via that, if they ever duel again.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And why he had one of them out of the fight and the other sitting on his ass in less than a minute into the fight. Hooray.

Totally, which is why he used droids- something he detested and considered 'cheating'- to separate Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He manages to get rid of a Vaapad practicioner while fending of Tholme at the same time in about five seconds. He also managed to f*ck up Kenobi while controlling Anakin at the same time. So what? And yes. Now Mace alone made him run in Obsession. Of course. It has nothing to do with a freaking army attempting to capture Dooku, nor with the fact that the Count had to save Grievous.

Highly impressive, I'll give you that, but Bulq is no Sidious. And Obi-Wan and Anakin were beating on Dooku- Anakin alone was enough to decimate the Count.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Prove it or shut up, newbie. He did it before, all evidence points to him still being superior to Windu. You don't have an argument. End of story.

Right.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You are aware of the goddamn fact that Dooku is known for applying force attacks in lightsaber duels, right? He knocks out Kenobi, Ventress and Bulq with such manouvers. Two of them in 2vs1 situations. What stops him from doing the same to Kit Fisto? Nothing? Correct, Sir! Unless you want to tell me that Mace Windu, not fully submerged into Vaapad, would be as good with a lightsaber as Anakin Skywalker, I don't see anything preventing the Count from force pwning his opposition. I'm afraid.

Yeah, that's nice, but we were not arguing an all-out fight, were we? No, we were arguing a lightsaber duel. And Dooku had never displayed the potency sufficient to kill Fisto in seconds while fighting someone who is, at the very least, his equal, even outside of Vaapad and Shatterpoint.

Indeed, if we're going all-out, I'd tell you that Sidious will kill Dooku with lightning. He certainly has the capability to do so.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me, idiot.

Oh, I'm hurt.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The only one that actually does comprehend what happens, when Sidious jumps on the Jedi, is Mace Windu, who is seen moving into a defensive stance when Sidious comes flying at the Jedi. No reaction from Kolar, Tiin or Fisto. The first two die in exactly the same stance they were in, before Sidious did even ignite his lightsaber.

Why didn't they comprehend what was happening? Oh, that's right! Because Sidious demonstrated speed and mastery of force-enhanced attributes vastly superior to Dooku's own. Speed is very legitimate in a lightsaber duel, and will be the main reason as to why Sidious will defeat Dooku.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Keep arguing against the movie as long as you want. Tiin and Kolar are not moving to defend themselves. They just stand there and get saber raped, without moving an inch. Fact.

BECAUSE SIDIOUS IS MOVING TOO FAST FOR THEM TO COMPREHEND. And this isn't some cannon fodder Jedi- it's two of the best swordsmen in the Order's damned history. Dooku had never been capable of curbstomping a formidable Jedi to such an extent.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Put Dooku in that situation: There is no way that more than two of the Jedi would be able to attack him in that office. And unless any pair you could come up with would exceed Bulq + Tholme or Anakin + Obi-Wan, he would commit the same combination of force and saber rape then he does to the teams mentioned before.

Mace + Fisto >>> Bulq + Tholme. And in a pure saber battle, Dooku wasn't capable of overcoming Anakin and Obi-Wan. We're talking a pure saber battle now. Sorry, Dooku has never displayed the speed and ability with the dark side to move faster than the comprehension of two insanely skilled swordsman.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Like every damn persons speed, if said person was using force speed would be "beyond Maul's comprehension". And hell. Sidious is faster than Maul who isn't moving at all. Woaaaah. Or is he just faster than Maul, after the latter was injured, raddled and hungry? Gre-he-he-at. Hey...I bet I can run faster than Anakin Skywalker in the state he was in, just after Kenobi cut his legs off and he took a lava bath. I must be god.

Oh, so you're implying that Maul is faster than Sidious now? Especially when Sidious moved faster than Maul's eye can follow (force speed or not, it doesn't help your vision), and has speed feats- from blitzing two of the finest swordsmen in the order, to beating Kit Fisto and outclassing Mace freakin' Windu, to forcing Yoda on the defensive, that are far greater than Maul's own.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my god. A Sith Lord channeling his rage in order to attack somebody? Jesus Christ. Did you ever see that happen before? And yes. After barely parrying Maul's blows, and Maul moving from his spontaneous force rage back to tired, hungry, injured individual again, Sidious disarmed him while holding back. How, in the blue hell, does that mean he can do the same to Maul in top shape? Especially, if you consider, that this isn't TPM "fit with a lightsaber" Sidious but RotS "I didn't touch such a weapon for a decade" Sidious.

Correction: The instant Sidious fully took control of the situation (him being able to block a Sith rage-powered Maul while being taken by complete surprise is impressive), he effortlessly disarmed Maul- while holding back and using a training lightsaber. Fact.

Besides, his feats with a lightsaber > Maul's, too.