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At the last moment, Vader decides to hunt down Master Ti on his own, to prove to Palpatine that he does do some work in the Empire instead of stare moodily out of windows all the time.

Can Vader beat Shaak Ti in the same arena that Starkiller did ( the Saarlak pit) or does he fall to the crimson fatale?

1. All-out
2. All-out with Saarlak
2. All-out with Saarlak and Felucian warriors

Hm I don't know, Shaak Ti gave Galen immense trouble, he only won due to over use of Force Lightning. In the first All out how would this work? Would she control the Saarlac as well or would it just be there
1-All Out- Vader 6/10, simply because Shaak Ti's true mastery of the force comes from the Enviornment, and she has no use of said enviornment in this scenario, but it will be close, I mean she is one of the 'greater sword beings.'
2-All out with Saarlak- Shaak Ti- eh 7/10
3- All out with Saarlak AND Felucian Warriors-9.5/10 Shaak
I mean Vader is good but he would have to fight through waves and waves of Felucians and their Rancor riding Chieftains, then after that he has to face Shaak Ti with her mighty pet.

Errr.... no, I meant those wierd felucians that she summons to fight with her. Theres a steady stream of about 3 at a time, and each is 'strong in the force'.

Ah, still Shaak takes it ok 9/10

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Hm I don't know, Shaak Ti gave Galen immense trouble, he only won due to over use of Force Lightning. In the first All out how would this work? Would she control the Saarlac as well or would it just be there
1-All Out- Vader 6/10, simply because Shaak Ti's true mastery of the force comes from the Enviornment, and she has no use of said enviornment in this scenario, but it will be close, I mean she is one of the 'greater sword beings.'
2-All out with Saarlak- Shaak Ti- eh 7/10
3- All out with Saarlak AND Felucian Warriors-9.5/10 Shaak
I mean Vader is good but he would have to fight through waves and waves of Felucians and their Rancor riding Chieftains, then after that he has to face Shaak Ti with her mighty pet. Now, when starkiller fought shaak ti, he was had not achieved the clarity he did when he gave vader an ass beating.

Basically, had this been the SK that was fighting vader with his clear mind of clarity, he would have destroyed shaak ti much easier than he would to vader, besides SK was fighting her in a situation where she had the greater advantage.

Oh and i say vader 8/10.

I got a better battlefield, how about this fight taking place on Bast castle on Vjun?

Seriously mizu, you are making vader look pathetically weak which he isn't.

Of shaak ti is going to own him as hard as you imply, i see her doing the same to a fricking OT sidious considering that he is 20% ahead of vader in sheer power.

You make a valid point, but Starkiller had no conflict in his mind until the end of the battle by which time Shaak Ti conceded defeat. But Shaak Ti gave him quite the arse beating. Like I said in the first fight, Vader will kill Shaak Ti, he is a better swordsman, however in the Force and with the Felucian Enviornment at her disposal, Vader loses.

And what exactly has shaak ti done that surpasses vader in the force? Was she able to ragdoll other jedi and instantly snap their necks like him? Was she able to hurl massive pillars at her opponent? Was she able to survive being smashed on by 3 massive pillars?

Was she able to force lift and throw an extremely huge temple statue like vader did in ROTS?

Like i said before, starkiller was not "crystal clear" when he fought shaak ti and had he was, he would have given her an even harder beating than he did to vader.

I would say shaak ti wins only because of the felucia environment at her disposal, in terms of sheer raw power, force mastery, i say vader takes it.


EDIT.

I just observed the SK vs vader fight again, vader only got beaten down when he hurled away the massive pillar that SK threw at him and was immediately hit with a massive force blast that resulted him losing balance and then getting smashed with 3 pillars which damaged him greatly, still he shrugged off that attack(possibly throwing those pillars away, why would SK remove them if he wants to kill vader?) and then got a chop to the face, pushed into some shield generator and then slammed through a wall.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Now, when starkiller fought shaak ti, he was had not achieved the clarity he did when he gave vader an ass beating.

Basically, had this been the SK that was fighting vader with his clear mind of clarity, he would have destroyed shaak ti much easier than he would to vader

Prove it.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I got a better battlefield, how about this fight taking place on Bast castle on Vjun?

You're aware that Fellucia is a Dark Side steeped planet? Vader would receive a boost there or on Vjun.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I just observed the SK vs vader fight again, vader only got beaten down when he hurled away the massive pillar that SK threw at him and was immediately hit with a massive force blast that resulted him losing balance and then getting smashed with 3 pillars which damaged him greatly, still he shrugged off that attack(possibly throwing those pillars away, why would SK remove them if he wants to kill vader?) and then got a chop to the face, pushed into some shield generator and then slammed through a wall.

Man, that's what I've been saying this entire time since the Starkiller fanboyism kicked in. Vader wasn't beaten badly. That one screw up cost him the match. With that heavy ass suit, he wasn't fast enough to stand up or recover.


Anyway, scenario one Shaak Ti takes 5.5-6/10.
Scenario two Shaak Ti takes 8/10.
Scenario three Shaak Ti takes 10/10.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Prove it.


Firstly, if you had read the comic or paid attention to the dialogue, starkiller was NOT in a state of clarity considering that his tone indicated he was going to get into a state of rage.

He was constantly rambling about how shaakti does not understand vader blah blah blah so i fail to see how he was in any "clarity" despite his constant ramblings.


Originally posted by Enyalus


You're aware that Fellucia is a Dark Side steeped planet? Vader would receive a boost there or on Vjun. Your aware that felucias Dark side energies aren't as potent as Vjuns right? And the fact that shaak ti has an entire planet's environment at her disposal and that when dooku got empowered by vjuns energies, he tooled assaji ventress by lifting his finger.

Vader would receive a boost on both planets, but the real question is just how potent would it be.



Originally posted by Enyalus

Man, that's what I've been saying this entire time since the Starkiller fanboyism kicked in. Vader wasn't beaten badly. That one screw up cost him the match. With that heavy ass suit, he wasn't fast enough to stand up or recover. And from the way you put it, shaak ti is going to do even more damage than what SK did, just look what you typed below.


Originally posted by Enyalus

Anyway, scenario one Shaak Ti takes 5.5-6/10.
Scenario two Shaak Ti takes 8/10.
Scenario three Shaak Ti takes 10/10. Your making vader look pathetically weak here.

Marek is only a notch above vader, banes definately higher, so is palapatine so i guess shaak ti is going to "beat" them too, just with a little more difficulty.

The only reason Starkiller beat Shaak Ti is because she had her back turned and deactivated her lightsaber.

Or are we going to say that Vader beat Starkiller because he stabbed him in the back when the Emperor ordered it?

SK's victory on Felucia wasn't impressive at all. Vader would be even less so.

Also, 20% is a pretty large gap. The difference between 200,000 and 160,000? 80%. Yet, it's a 40,000 point shift.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
And what exactly has shaak ti done that surpasses vader in the force? Was she able to ragdoll other jedi and instantly snap their necks like him? Was she able to hurl massive pillars at her opponent? Was she able to survive being smashed on by 3 massive pillars?

Was she able to force lift and throw an extremely huge temple statue like vader did in ROTS?

Like i said before, starkiller was not "crystal clear" when he fought shaak ti and had he was, he would have given her an even harder beating than he did to vader.

I would say shaak ti wins only because of the felucia environment at her disposal, in terms of sheer raw power, force mastery, i say vader takes it.


EDIT.

I just observed the SK vs vader fight again, vader only got beaten down when he hurled away the massive pillar that SK threw at him and was immediately hit with a massive force blast that resulted him losing balance and then getting smashed with 3 pillars which damaged him greatly, still he shrugged off that attack(possibly throwing those pillars away, why would SK remove them if he wants to kill vader?) and then got a chop to the face, pushed into some shield generator and then slammed through a wall.
First off he was crystal clear in his fight with Shaak Ti, when he said with vigor "You will NEVER convince me to betray my Master" And no she wasn't able to get hit by three pillars and survive, but could Vader survive a massive dose of Force Lightning, obviously not. So that statement is irrelevant. The point is Shaak Ti is depicted as curbstomping Galen Marek until the very end of the fight where he used Force lighting in Desperation. Ok Now in the First fight Vader barely takes it, but still as I have said many times before, Shaak Ti took a planet so strong in the Dark Side that as soon as she died the planet fell into Darkness and corrupted Marris Brood. She controlled the Planets enviornment. She made Felucia, her *****. And Vader did not "shrug off" Mareks three Pillars, he barely got up and then was clearly outdueled. As soon as those pillars fell he was ****ed. Unless you wish to suggest that Starkiller is a greater duelist then Vader. But simply put, when Galen beat Vader he was not exhausted, he simply moved on to the Emperor, now, when he was done with Shaak Ti his robes were torn, and he himself was exhausted. Vader will get terrible, terrible things done to him in the force by Shaak Ti, with the Saarlac, with Felucian force sensitive warriors it just adds to the rape.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The only reason Starkiller beat Shaak Ti is because she had her back turned and deactivated her lightsaber. Along with the fact that starkiller didn't achieve his clarity when he did against vader along with the fact that shaak ti had an entire planets environment at his disposal.

The comics prove that you are wrong btw. Read the yellow boxes.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r32/nadd_9/TheForceUnleashed046.jpg


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r32/nadd_9/TheForceUnleashed047.jpg


Originally posted by Enyalus

Or are we going to say that Vader beat Starkiller because he stabbed him in the back when the Emperor ordered it?
Irrelevant, see the above.

Originally posted by Enyalus

SK's victory on Felucia wasn't impressive at all. Vader would be even less so.
Obviously, seeing that shaak ti had tons of help at her disposal, had this been set on another scenario, SK and vader would tool her.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Also, 20% is a pretty large gap. The difference between 200,000 and 160,000? 80%. Yet, it's a 40,000 point shift. Right, a difference between 8 asians and 2 caucasians is also a "pretty large gap".

The thing is, you yourself dared to make the the claim that "vaders TK perhaps surpasses that of palpatine" which would indicate that some part of you believed that he > palpatine in one aspect.


@Mizukage yoda, i am not going to take you seriously at all and in my upcoming rebuttal, you will know why


I may have angered and underestimated great vengeance, but at least he can bring out a few decent points and formulate cogent and good arguments, you on the other hand is a complete and utter fool whom only argues on what is shown rather than analyse why the situation turned out such.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
First off he was crystal clear in his fight with Shaak Ti, when he said with vigor "You will NEVER convince me to betray my Master"
Which already indicates that he ISN'T in a state of clarity, or he would have annihilated shaak ti, hell in that state he was able to put palpatine on his ass.



WOW i guess shaak ti is more powerful than palpatine now, because you and enyalus say so.

Prove he was "crystal clear" in his fight with shaak ti, considering that he was getting "Ass raped". Again if this really is his clarity and he tooled both vader and sidious and couldn't defeat shaak ti, then there is seriously something wrong with that sponge you call a brain.

Do you now know why your logic fails miserably?


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And no she wasn't able to get hit by three pillars and survive,
Yet vader got up seemingly uninjured... with his saber in hand parrying the attacks of SK until getting his ankle hacked, but of course the pillars did damage him but it was not "catastrophic" to a point where it would have killed him(as it would to most other force users).
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
but could Vader survive a massive dose of Force Lightning, obviously not.
He survives SK's "uber l33t" force lightning in the novel, you fail.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So that statement is irrelevant. The point is Shaak Ti is depicted as curbstomping Galen Marek until the very end of the fight where he used Force lighting in Desperation.

Right, and because she curbstomped SK when he wasn't at clarity, it means she is going to rape vader and at the same time, rape those who are above him, bane, sidious, nihilus.

Do you see where your logic fails?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ok Now in the First fight Vader barely takes it,
No, he takes it rather comfortably considering that you evaded my question earlier, of what the f-uck shaak ti did to surpass vaders force powers.

As far as feats go, vader has done much more "impressive" feats than shaak ti, from what i had seen at least.

Incase you didn't read, i'll kindly post it for you : And what exactly has shaak ti done that surpasses vader in the force? Was she able to ragdoll other jedi and instantly snap their necks like him? Was she able to hurl massive pillars at her opponent? Was she able to survive being smashed on by 3 massive pillars?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
but still as I have said many times before, Shaak Ti took a planet so strong in the Dark Side that as soon as she died the planet fell into Darkness and corrupted Marris Brood.
And that means what? Her presence didn't change the planets status in the force, it still didn't abolish the dark side energies that swirled the entire planet.

Hell her presence didn't do shit to the dark side, it was still described as being powerful in the dark side,

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
She controlled the Planets enviornment.
So? Vader himself is a master of the environment when he gets into battle, what the hell is going to stop him from using felucias terrain against shaak ti?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
She made Felucia, her *****. And Vader did not "shrug off" Mareks three Pillars, he barely got up and then was clearly outdueled.
He did, but he was injured, but the injuries were not brutal enough to permanently put vader on his ass nor was it enough to kill or incapacitate him, most people in the star wars myhos would be brutally murdered if a single heavy object were to collapse on them.

Hell the dark woman was killed by a tree that vader collapsed on her, and one tree was enough to make her bleed from her mouth.

And she was another powerful force user that could walk through walls, tutored a COUNCIL member and like shaak ti, could command flora and fauna.

SK collapsed three massive pillars on vader, and that wasn't enough to kill him, hell he immediately gets on his feet prepared to duel SK, but of course like i said earlier, the injuries caused him some damage which hindered his skills.

By the way, vader was already on his ass before the pillars struck him, SK immediately hits him with a force way after he deflects one pillar(he very well could have easily deflected those three, but he was lying on the floor).


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
As soon as those pillars fell he was ****ed.

Unless you wish to suggest that Starkiller is a greater duelist then Vader.
Starkiller, in a clarity and crystal clear state of mind is greater than vader both in the force. But i already clarified above so read it.

The pillars only damaged him, they didn't kill him as it would to most force users(your precious shaak ti included), that of course
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
But simply put, when Galen beat Vader he was not exhausted,
BECAUSE HE WAS NOT IN A CRYSTAL CLEAR STATE LIKE HE WAS AGAINST VADER.

Get it through your god damn thick skull.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
he simply moved on to the Emperor, now, when he was done with Shaak Ti his robes were torn,
And when he moved to the emperor, his robes weren't torn either, so i guess shaak ti will beat SIDIOUS too.

Seriously your logic is HORRIBLE.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
and he himself was exhausted. Vader will get terrible, terrible things done to him in the force by Shaak Ti, with the Saarlac, with Felucian force sensitive warriors it just adds to the rape. Because you say so?

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Along with the fact that starkiller didn't achieve his clarity when he did against vader along with the fact that shaak ti had an entire planets environment at his disposal.

The comics prove that you are wrong btw. Read the yellow boxes.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r32/nadd_9/TheForceUnleashed046.jpg


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r32/nadd_9/TheForceUnleashed047.jpg


Irrelevant, see the above.

Obviously, seeing that shaak ti had tons of help at her disposal, had this been set on another scenario, SK and vader would tool her.

Right, a difference between 8 asians and 2 caucasians is also a "pretty large gap".

The thing is, you yourself dared to make the the claim that "vaders TK perhaps surpasses that of palpatine" which would indicate that some part of you believed that he > palpatine in one aspect.


@Mizukage yoda, i am not going to take you seriously at all and in my upcoming rebuttal, you will know why


I may have angered and underestimated great vengeance, but at least he can bring out a few decent points and formulate cogent and good arguments, you on the other hand is a complete and utter fool whom only argues on what is shown rather than analyse why the situation turned out such.


Which already indicates that he ISN'T in a state of clarity, or he would have annihilated shaak ti, hell in that state he was able to put palpatine on his ass.



WOW i guess shaak ti is more powerful than palpatine now, because you and enyalus say so.

Prove he was "crystal clear" in his fight with shaak ti, considering that he was getting "Ass raped". Again if this really is his clarity and he tooled both vader and sidious and couldn't defeat shaak ti, then there is seriously something wrong with that sponge you call a brain.

Do you now know why your logic fails miserably?


Yet vader got up seemingly uninjured... with his saber in hand parrying the attacks of SK until getting his ankle hacked, but of course the pillars did damage him but it was not "catastrophic" to a point where it would have killed him(as it would to most other force users).
He survives SK's "uber l33t" force lightning in the novel, you fail.
Right, and because she curbstomped SK when he wasn't at clarity, it means she is going to rape vader and at the same time, rape those who are above him, bane, sidious, nihilus.

Do you see where your logic fails?
No, he takes it rather comfortably considering that you evaded my question earlier, of what the f-uck shaak ti did to surpass vaders force powers.

As far as feats go, vader has done much more "impressive" feats than shaak ti, from what i had seen at least.

Incase you didn't read, i'll kindly post it for you : And what exactly has shaak ti done that surpasses vader in the force? Was she able to ragdoll other jedi and instantly snap their necks like him? Was she able to hurl massive pillars at her opponent? Was she able to survive being smashed on by 3 massive pillars?

And that means what? Her presence didn't change the planets status in the force, it still didn't abolish the dark side energies that swirled the entire planet.

Hell her presence didn't do shit to the dark side, it was still described as being powerful in the dark side,

So? Vader himself is a master of the environment when he gets into battle, what the hell is going to stop him from using felucias terrain against shaak ti?
He did, but he was injured, but the injuries were not brutal enough to permanently put vader on his ass nor was it enough to kill or incapacitate him, most people in the star wars myhos would be brutally murdered if a single heavy object were to collapse on them.

Hell the dark woman was killed by a tree that vader collapsed on her, and one tree was enough to make her bleed from her mouth.

And she was another powerful force user that could walk through walls, tutored a COUNCIL member and like shaak ti, could command flora and fauna.

SK collapsed three massive pillars on vader, and that wasn't enough to kill him, hell he immediately gets on his feet prepared to duel SK, but of course like i said earlier, the injuries caused him some damage which hindered his skills.

By the way, vader was already on his ass before the pillars struck him, SK immediately hits him with a force way after he deflects one pillar(he very well could have easily deflected those three, but he was lying on the floor).


Starkiller, in a clarity and crystal clear state of mind is greater than vader both in the force. But i already clarified above so read it.

The pillars only damaged him, they didn't kill him as it would to most force users(your precious shaak ti included), that of course
BECAUSE HE WAS NOT IN A CRYSTAL CLEAR STATE LIKE HE WAS AGAINST VADER.

Get it through your god damn thick skull.
And when he moved to the emperor, his robes weren't torn either, so i guess shaak ti will beat SIDIOUS too.

Seriously your logic is HORRIBLE.
Because you say so?
Don't take my quotes out of context I said his robes were torn and he was obviously exhausted. Second. You fail to see that this is narrated by PROXY a loyal servant to Starkiller, his descriptions don't count, he was damaged. This is why the Kazdan Paratus incident wasn't in the comic most likely because Proxy had no memory of the incident. Where is it stated that he was not in CRYSTAL CLEAR STATE. Tell me please I want to know where this is stated. Right you can't. And on the contrary it is stated clearly that when she died the planet "Fell into Darkness" meaning it was not in darkness when she was alive. Vader got up seemingly uninjured???Really is that why Starkiller manhandled him in a duel in five seconds flat?????
The Game canon and the Novel>Comic. The Comic also never depicts PROXY dueling with Galen, or the Darth Maul part. And do you have any proof that Vader could have lifted those three pillars, of coarse not because you are using retarded supposition. And the fact that the three pillars didn't kill him is because he is wearing a suit of armor. He also withstood a blow to the head from a fricken lightsaber. And of coarse he put Palps on his ass, Palps wasn't really dueling him, This is the Dark Lord of the Sith who whiped the floor with three Jedi Masters almost instantly. It is you who fails to analyze that Palaptine was goading him into becoming his apprentice, and giving in to his anger, as he did to Luke on the Second Death Star. Notice how while the Emperor was "On his ass" he springs up, and rapes General Kota with another dose of lightning.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Along with the fact that starkiller didn't achieve his clarity when he did against vader along with the fact that shaak ti had an entire planets environment at his disposal.

Uh, that wouldn't be a reason why he beat Shaak Ti. That'd be an excuse if he lost to her.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
The comics prove that you are wrong btw. Read the yellow boxes.

Let's see: I say she had her back turned and lightsaber put away. In the scan, she has her lightsaber off even when stabbed in the chest, and her back was turned to Starkiller. How is that proving me wrong? Furthermore, the narration is by PROXY - not an objective viewer and not even at the battle. He says, "no one could ." Does "no one" now include Emperor Palpatine? Are you saying Galen is more powerful than the Emperor now? PROXY seems to think so, afterall. PROXY = canon?




Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Irrelevant, see the above.

Yup. Taken care of.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Obviously, seeing that shaak ti had tons of help at her disposal, had this been set on another scenario, SK and vader would tool her.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Right, a difference between 8 asians and 2 caucasians is also a "pretty large gap".

Yeah, but that wouldn't be 80%, that would be 400%, Big S.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
The thing is, you yourself dared to make the the claim that "vaders TK perhaps surpasses that of palpatine" which would indicate that some part of you believed that he > palpatine in one aspect.

In my opinion, yup.


Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Prove he was "crystal clear" in his fight with shaak ti, considering that he was getting "Ass raped". Again if this really is his clarity and he tooled both vader and sidious and couldn't defeat shaak ti, then there is seriously something wrong with that sponge you call a brain.

You're the one who initially said he wasn't crystal clear against Shaak Ti. That's not obvious. Burden of proof is on you. Also - come on now. He didn't tool Sidious. Sidious had loads more power than him and the only way he was able to hold back Sidious' lightning was by becoming an avatar of the Force (something that seemingly no one can do on command, IE a fluke).

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
No, he takes it rather comfortably considering that you evaded my question earlier, of what the f-uck shaak ti did to surpass vaders force powers.

Bend an entire Dark Side rich planet to her will? She was a Jedi Master and Council member. Not to mention a Consular (specifically trained to use the Force over a lightsaber). Her Force powers didn't suck.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
So? Vader himself is a master of the environment when he gets into battle, what the hell is going to stop him from using felucias terrain against shaak ti?

The planet is specifically stated as being 'under her control.' If you want to say otherwise - again, burden of proof is on you. Shaak Ti is one of the greatest bladebeings of the Order with a powerful command and knowledge of the Force. I think he'd have his hands full keeping himself alive.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Starkiller, in a clarity and crystal clear state of mind is greater than vader both in the force. But i already clarified above so read it.

Nah. I'd say he got lucky. Vader tossed the pillars aside and immediately gets blown back by Galen's Force Wave. The battle would've been very tight if that hadn't happened. Then again, I sip the Haterade.

Vader has a stronger connection to the force than Shaak Ti, even in his suit. Vader was one of the few to rival Palpatine in terms of power during that time.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader has a stronger connection to the force than Shaak Ti, even in his suit. Vader was one of the few to rival Palpatine in terms of power during that time.

Vader also has a stronger connection to the Force than Galen Marek...you know, it being his father and all. Did that help him beat Marek? No. Okay then.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader has a stronger connection to the force than Shaak Ti, even in his suit. Vader was one of the few to rival Palpatine in terms of power during that time.
Vader's connection to the Force is unparalleled, he is the chosen one after all, even in the suit. But, his ability to channel the force was severely crippled by his mutilation. In TFU Shaak Ti demostrated the ability to not just use, but have full control of a planet twisted by the Dark Side. In swordsmanship alone she is no wimp, she was regarded as one of the "Greater Swordsbeings" of the order, but her true strength lies in her mastery of the Force. I doubt that Vader could take Shaak Ti in a Saber Duel, while simultaneously dodging Saarlac tentacles, he doesn't seem fast enough, Mr. I never run. I mean Galen Marek had a great deal of trouble dodging them. Like I said before Vader might pull off a victory in #1, but thats being generous. Vader will get wrecked with the Saarlac, and even further wrecked with the Felucians and the Saarlac

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Vader's connection to the Force is unparalleled, he is the chosen one after all, even in the suit. But, his ability to channel the force was severely crippled by his mutilation. In TFU Shaak Ti demostrated the ability to not just use, but have full control of a planet twisted by the Dark Side. In swordsmanship alone she is no wimp, she was regarded as one of the "Greater Swordsbeings" of the order, but her true strength lies in her mastery of the Force. I doubt that Vader could take Shaak Ti in a Saber Duel, while simultaneously dodging Saarlac tentacles, he doesn't seem fast enough, Mr. I never run. I mean Galen Marek had a great deal of trouble dodging them. Like I said before Vader might pull off a victory in #1, but thats being generous. Vader will get wrecked with the Saarlac, and even further wrecked with the Felucians and the Saarlac

NO his connection was greatly reduced with the loss of midichlorians. By the time Vader was in his suit Palpatine had a greater connection to the force. Dark woman showed many of the same feats as Shaak Ti by controling the environment, and she still was no match for Vader. I seriously doubt some Saarlac tentacles would slow Vader down. I mean Vader did survive a blast of force lightning, being crushed by heavy columns, and a force explosoin by Marek.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
NO his connection was greatly reduced with the loss of midichlorians. By the time Vader was in his suit Palpatine had a greater connection to the force.

In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine would disagree with you.

Palpatine also says Vader would never be able to generate force lightning, and that is something Palpatine would alway hold over his head.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Palpatine also says Vader would never be able to generate force lightning, and that is something Palpatine would alway hold over his head.

...True...?

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
EDIT.

I just observed the SK vs vader fight again, vader only got beaten down when he hurled away the massive pillar that SK threw at him and was immediately hit with a massive force blast that resulted him losing balance and then getting smashed with 3 pillars which damaged him greatly, still he shrugged off that attack(possibly throwing those pillars away, why would SK remove them if he wants to kill vader?) and then got a chop to the face, pushed into some shield generator and then slammed through a wall.

Well, yes. But that's how all-out fights work. I'd still believe that in an all-out fight Marek would probably defeat Vader again.

Canon has shown that Starkiller increased in mastery by a significant amount between his battle with Shaak Ti and his battle with Vader. Clarity has nothing to do with it. Moreover, PROXY's narration is suspect -- while he does state that "no one" could hold Starkiller, I will remind you that he is not the only narrator of the comic; Juno Eclipse takes over the rest after the events that left PROXY deactivated by Vader's hand. Having never seen the Emperor or Vader fight before, truly, it's not something that can be used.

I know you weren't implying as much, Enyalus, but you can't even use that as an example. That Vader challenged a more potent Starkiller is remarkable. Nothing suggests that Shaak Ti would be able to defeat him.

Originally posted by Gideon
Canon has shown that Starkiller increased in mastery by a significant amount between his battle with Shaak Ti and his battle with Vader. Clarity has nothing to do with it. Moreover, PROXY's narration is suspect -- while he does state that "no one" could hold Starkiller, I will remind you that he is not the only narrator of the comic; Juno Eclipse takes over the rest after the events that left PROXY deactivated by Vader's hand. Having never seen the Emperor or Vader fight before, truly, it's not something that can be used.

I know you weren't implying as much, Enyalus, but you can't even use that as an example. That Vader challenged a more potent Starkiller is remarkable. Nothing suggests that Shaak Ti would be able to defeat him.

does he increase in anything other than feats? or game points, (whatever the system for advancement is there)
Because his increasing in feats truly means nothing. Just because someone doesn't do something before a certain time doesn't mean they aren't capable of it. That's like saying Darth Vader is incapable of throwing things at Obi-Wan during their fight on Mustafar, because he doesn't throw things at anyone until RODV.

The narration of the novelization states that Starkiller has improved and has returned stronger after his six month coma.

okay, works for me, thanks

Besides, it's not like Starkiller wouldn't go to any lengths in order to defeat his every opponent. He did what he could against Shaak Tii, as he did against Vader.

Wow, Vader would destroy Shaak Ti, even on Felucia. What you fail to realize is that Shaak Ti had been on Felucia for over a decade. It wans't like she landed on the pplanet and suddenly it was all light and good. she took control of it over a matter of YEARS. Secondly, Vader would curbstomp Felucians. They are a non-factor. Shaak Ti with the sarlaac is dangerous, but Vader can still win, with relative ease. Shaak Ti would not be able to use the sarlaac against Vader because if she stops for half a second, he will snap her neck. Seriously, Vader is MCUH stronger than her.

Originally posted by Gideon
I know you weren't implying as much, Enyalus, but you can't even use that as an example. That Vader challenged a more potent Starkiller is remarkable. Nothing suggests that Shaak Ti would be able to defeat him.

I think we agree, if I'm understanding you.

My opinion:

1) Shaak Ti could defeat the Starkiller who she lost to on Felucia.
2) Shaak Ti could not defeat Starkiller at his prime.
3) Shaak Ti, however, could defeat Darth Vader.

You were implying the first two, right?

Originally posted by Enyalus


Uh, that wouldn't be a reason why he beat Shaak Ti. That'd be an excuse if he lost to her.




Let's see: I say she had her back turned and lightsaber put away. In the scan, she has her lightsaber off even when stabbed in the chest, and her back was turned to Starkiller. How is that proving me wrong? Furthermore, the narration is by PROXY - not an objective viewer and not even at the battle. He says, "no one could ." Does "no one" now include Emperor Palpatine? Are you saying Galen is more powerful than the Emperor now? PROXY seems to think so, afterall. PROXY = canon?



Look at the starkiller duel vs shaak ti duel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6JsMpa61Zs

He OVERPOWERS her towards the end of the duel and when she got up with her saber "deacivated" she refused to fight because she knows she has been BEATEN.

So no, he didn't lose that duel.




Originally posted by Enyalus

Yup. Taken care of. Nuh uh. Just see the above.


Originally posted by Enyalus

Prove it. Lets say this is on the executor, death star, or any other dark side world like korriban or Vjun.

Does shaak ti have flora, fauna and countless creatures at her disposal at such planets? You yourself said this "
The planet is specifically stated as being 'under her control.'.

On any other world strong in the dark side(vjun, malachor, korriban), the planet wouldn't be under her control.


Originally posted by Enyalus

Yeah, but that wouldn't be 80%, that would be 400%, Big S.



Um no, 8 + 2 = 10. So we have 10 people total, 8 out of 10 are asians and 2 are white. 80% are asian, and 20% are white.

O misinterpreted it earlier, sorry.


Originally posted by Enyalus

In my opinion, yup.
Right and that means shaak ti > sidious to.


Originally posted by Enyalus

You're the one who initially said he wasn't crystal clear against Shaak Ti. That's not obvious. Burden of proof is on you.
It IS obvious despite his constant ramblings of how shaak ti doesn't understand vader.

Besides, i don't have to prove a negative. It is mizu's duty to prove that he was in a state of clarity.

Besides what does it matter? The novel stated that starkillers powers and mastery had increased significantly between his duel with shaak ti so therefore vader fought a much more powerful galen.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Also - come on now. He didn't tool Sidious. Sidious had loads more power than him and the only way he was able to hold back Sidious' lightning was by becoming an avatar of the Force (something that seemingly no one can do on command, IE a fluke).
Never read the comic again? Or actually played the game? Starkiller DID tool sidious(this actually backs your point, that he is not infallible )

This portion of the comic was in the eyes of juno, whereas the game... is canon.




Originally posted by Enyalus

Bend an entire Dark Side rich planet to her will?
And just how potent is the dark side there? Last i recall SK couldn't even get a simply boost.
Originally posted by Enyalus

She was a Jedi Master and Council member. Not to mention a Consular (specifically trained to use the Force over a lightsaber). Her Force powers didn't suck. Right, so it means she would "annihilate" vader on any given day on any setting.


Originally posted by Enyalus

The planet is specifically stated as being 'under her control.' If you want to say otherwise - again, burden of proof is on you. Shaak Ti is one of the greatest bladebeings of the Order with a powerful command and knowledge of the Force. I think he'd have his hands full keeping himself alive. The planet IS under her control, considering that she has flora and fauna at her disposal, but again HOW does that stop from vader actually using the environment against her?

Are you saying that he is so weak against shaak ti that he wouldn't even be able to force lift a rock and hurl it at her?

Once again, i have asked and that idiot mizukage yoda evaded the question. What in-f-u-c-k-i-n-g-s name has shaak ti done to be superior to vader? What force feat?(im targeting the insult to him, not you so chill).


Originally posted by Enyalus

Nah. I'd say he got lucky. Vader tossed the pillars aside and immediately gets blown back by Galen's Force Wave. The battle would've been very tight if that hadn't happened. Then again, I sip the Haterade. wadeva, SK was lucky anyways, but vader fought a more potent SK than shaak ti.


@ Now to the idiot mizukage yoda.

First off, READ THE DAMN POST PROPERLY, you have evaded my questions time and again you moron


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Don't take my quotes out of context I said his robes were torn and he was obviously exhausted.
Which means what exactly?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Second. You fail to see that this is narrated by PROXY a loyal servant to Starkiller, his descriptions don't count, he was damaged. This is why the Kazdan Paratus incident wasn't in the comic most likely because Proxy had no memory of the incident.
Already taken care of, when i debated with enyalus.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Where is it stated that he was not in CRYSTAL CLEAR STATE. Tell me please I want to know where this is stated. Right you can't.
Its not that i can't, its that i don't have to prove a negative.

In fact, if anything, you should prove that he was in a state of clarity, not me seeing that i don't have to prove negatives.

Thats like asking me to prove that exar kuns amulet blast is not instant. A negative do you understand? A debate does not work this way.

Besides the novel clearly stated that vader fought a significantly far more potent starkiller than shaak ti.

Now prove up or shut the hell up which you have yet to do eiter.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And on the contrary it is stated clearly that when she died the planet "Fell into Darkness" meaning it was not in darkness when she was alive.
It still was "dangerously close to the dark side".

If you actually paid any attention to the dialogue, bail stated that after shaak ti's death, the planet was "nearly lost to the dark side" meaning that even with shaak ti around, the planet was already sliding closer and closer to the dark side.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Vader got up seemingly uninjured???Really is that why Starkiller manhandled him in a duel in five seconds flat?????
See the word seemingly you idiot, i never said vader was uninjured, i said seemingly.
Fking moron

Hell i already made it cleat that vader DID get injured, LEARN TO READ moron.


SK collapsed three massive pillars on vader, and that wasn't enough to kill him, hell he immediately gets on his feet prepared to duel SK, but of course like i said earlier, the injuries caused him some damage which hindered his skills.


^ Now shut the **** up and read.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Game canon and the Novel>Comic. The Comic also never depicts PROXY dueling with Galen, or the Darth Maul part.
The comic depicted him dueling proxy moron, learn to read and open your damn eyes.

Obviously not everything was shown in the comic, but that doesn't mean its not canon.

Besides certain events are WITNESSED from the eye, meaning that it still has merit and CAN be used in a debate.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And do you have any proof that Vader could have lifted those three pillars, of coarse not because you are using retarded supposition.
Of course i can because your mother should have aborted you when she had the chance.

Vader grabbed a massive pillar and hurled it at SK, SK then grabs it and throws it back at him, only that vader easily deflected it before getting hit by a force wave.

If he could easily throw one massive pillar, i don't see why he can't lift three.

And in ROTS game cutscene, he lifts up a MASSIVE temple statue that is far larger and more massive than those 3 pillars combined and he did it when his force mastery was inferior to his OT incarnation.

Translation, your miserable attempts to make vader look weak are futile.

This is another thing i would had never needed to prove had you actually had half a brain and some common sense, vader easily lifts one pillar so i don't see why he can't lift three ,and the novel stated that vader created a telekinetic storm hurling everything at SK, only to miss him of course.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And the fact that the three pillars didn't kill him is because he is wearing a suit of armor.
Bad logic. The suit of armor isn't some almightly plating that shields him from everything, hell the entire armor isn't like that, or he wouldn't even be able to move at all.

Vaders body armor is durable, meaning it isn't some super plated armor shit like those medieval knights.

And therefore it wouldn't shield him much from massive objects hitting him.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He also withstood a blow to the head from a fricken lightsaber.
Which is a further testament to his power

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And of coarse he put Palps on his ass, Palps wasn't really dueling him, This is the Dark Lord of the Sith who whiped the floor with three Jedi Masters almost instantly. It is you who fails to analyze that Palaptine was goading him into becoming his apprentice, and giving in to his anger, as he did to Luke on the Second Death Star.
It is you who is too stupid to realise that nothing suggested that he let starkiller humiliate him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Notice how while the Emperor was "On his ass" he springs up, and rapes General Kota with Rapes kota with what? His deformed dick?

You just fail to realise that he sprung up because he is extremely powerful, as is vader who got up minutes after being battered by Sk.

Now shut the **** up.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I think we agree, if I'm understanding you.

My opinion:

1) Shaak Ti could defeat the Starkiller who she lost to on Felucia.
2) Shaak Ti could not defeat Starkiller at his prime.
3) Shaak Ti, however, could defeat Darth Vader.

You were implying the first two, right?

That is correct. But I find your third point, pardon me, ridiculous. A beaten, broken Vader managed to withstand a super-mega-****ing explosion of Palpatine's Force energies repulsed by Galen "I-am-one-with-the-Force" Marek. Shaak Ti dominated a weaker Starkiller according to the novelization; Vader would pimpsmack Starkiller twice via the Force and would challenge him in lightsaber combat and in a Force contest and collapse a massive hut on Kashyyyk which was as durable as metal.

The idea that Ti could even challenge Vader is somewhat preposterous. Perhaps and only perhaps with the power of Felucia behind her, but on a neutral setting? He'd convert to
Catholicism and molest her accordingly.

Schwartz, Starkiller did not tool the Emperor. The comic and book both support the idea that Palpatine was merely baiting Starkiller to convert to the dark side. Did he beat him? Sure. But nothing suggests Palpatine was fighting his hardest -- especially when one considers that even the game depicts him goading Starkiller even upon his defeat. And when Starkiller rejects him, Palpatine springs up like nothing happened and even moves to kill Kota first.

Originally posted by Gideon

Schwartz, Starkiller did not tool the Emperor. The comic and book both support the idea that Palpatine was merely baiting Starkiller to convert to the dark side. Did he beat him? Sure. But nothing suggests Palpatine was fighting his hardest -- especially when one considers that even the game depicts him goading Starkiller even upon his defeat. And when Starkiller rejects him, Palpatine springs up like nothing happened and even moves to kill Kota first. I'll concede this.

But yea your right, he did stand up like nothing happened. The same way vader stood up after getting crushed by three pillars and standing up minutes after he got defeated.

Its funny how he stands there doing nothing while starkiller was trying to grab palpatine.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
And in ROTS game cutscene, he lifts up a MASSIVE temple statue that is far larger and more massive than those 3 pillars combined and he did it when his force mastery was inferior to his OT incarnation.


This is the same game that depicts Anakin wtf Pwning Master Windu in a saber duel, and not to mention contradicts the Movie on several accounts, I hardly consider that canon.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Its funny how he stands there doing nothing while starkiller was trying to grab palpatine.

Yeah, I LOL'd. And when the stormtroopers hauled ass and ran past them. Honestly, I think they just knew better. Kind've like "Yeah... we don't need to get in the middle of this."

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Look at the starkiller duel vs shaak ti duel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6JsMpa61Zs

He OVERPOWERS her towards the end of the duel and when she got up with her saber "deacivated" she refused to fight because she knows she has been BEATEN.

So no, he didn't lose that duel.

Woah, you know how badly that contradicts the comics and novel? Plus, it's gameplay mechanics. You hit the wrong button (since it's that stupid 'Press displayed button' boss fight) and the fight doesn't turn out like that.



Nope. I said Vader's TK > Sidious' TK. Just because Shaak Ti can beat Vader doesn't mean she suddenly has superior telekinetic powers.



And lost. Just like he lost to a Tuskan Raider at one point (see PH - my assessment on Vader for more details). Shaak Ti can beat Vader. She's a better duelist, is faster, and her Force defenses are top notch.



I read the comic. SK picks Palpatine up, hurls him down. Palpatine gets up laughing. The only impressive thing SK does to Palpatine is hold back his lightning - and in order to do so he engages in the deus ex machina known as becoming an avatar of the Force. Your point regarding Juno's POV is well taken. I wonder what the novel depicts.



It doesn't say that he doesn't get a boost. Since it's a Dark Side rich planet, and was turning Maris Brood to the Dark Side because of it, we should assume that he was being boosted. And I never said annihilate so I don't know why that's in quotes. If I remember correctly, I said she wins 5.5-6 out of 10 times. That's pretty close if you ask me.




Are you saying that hurling a rock at her is going to make a difference?



Anakin was never called one of the 'great bladebeings' in the Order. Vader's never mastered the ultimate dueling form. And Vader is in a suit that severely limits his mobility. Thus, I'd say Shaak Ti bests him in a saber duel. In the Force, Vader would win. But this isn't a pure Force fight, it's all out. Shaak Ti was trained to deflect Force Lightning with her bare hands. I think her Force defenses would hold against a Force Choke or something similar.

And if he throws a rock at her, she dodges.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is the same game that depicts Anakin wtf Pwning Master Windu in a saber duel, and not to mention contradicts the Movie on several accounts, I hardly consider that canon. Leland chee stated the game is canon, and he said only certain parts of the game are retconned by the movies meaning the game IS canon. Live with it.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Woah, you know how badly that contradicts the comics and novel? Plus, it's gameplay mechanics. You hit the wrong button (since it's that stupid 'Press displayed button' boss fight) and the fight doesn't turn out like that.
No, according to faunus and mizukage, it was scripted meaning it was suppose to happen that way.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Nope. I said Vader's TK > Sidious' TK. Just because Shaak Ti can beat Vader doesn't mean she suddenly has superior telekinetic powers.
kk

Originally posted by Enyalus

And lost. Just like he lost to a Tuskan Raider at one point (see PH - my assessment on Vader for more details). Shaak Ti can beat Vader. She's a better duelist, is faster, and her Force defenses are top notch. Prove her force defences are top notch. And i rather you substantiate where did he lose to a tusken raider.





Originally posted by Enyalus

I read the comic. SK picks Palpatine up, hurls him down. Palpatine gets up laughing. The only impressive thing SK does to Palpatine is hold back his lightning - and in order to do so he engages in the deus ex machina known as becoming an avatar of the Force. Your point regarding Juno's POV is well taken. I wonder what the novel depicts. This irrelevant now, i dropped it earlier


Originally posted by Enyalus

It doesn't say that he doesn't get a boost. Since it's a Dark Side rich planet, and was turning Maris Brood to the Dark Side because of it, we should assume that he was being boosted. And I never said annihilate so I don't know why that's in quotes. If I remember correctly, I said she wins 5.5-6 out of 10 times. That's pretty close if you ask me. Not it isn't, you have yet to substantiate HOW shaak ti is going to beat vader, does she demonstrate force lightning? Is her command of TK even close to vader?

Seriously, i fail to see how is she even going to challenge vader in the force, vader overpowers kento and instantly snaps his neck, the same can happen to shaak ti.

And in the game he collapses a massive hut which is as durable as steel.


Originally posted by Enyalus

Are you saying that hurling a rock at her is going to make a difference? It depends what kind of rock, how big is it, how massive it is.

You implied that vader wouldn't be able to control anything in the environment, so i merely asked you a question.



Originally posted by Enyalus

Anakin was never called one of the 'great bladebeings' in the Order.
Yet he destroys count dooku aka "one of the orders greatest jedi and an even greater sith lord" in seconds.

Dooku's sword skills > shaak ti.



Originally posted by Enyalus

Vader's never mastered the ultimate dueling form.


His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, his moves were quick and unpredictable.

RODV page 276

Shaak ti would be fighting an opponent whose lightsaber style is unknown to her.


Originally posted by Enyalus

And Vader is in a suit that severely limits his mobility. Thus, I'd say Shaak Ti bests him in a saber duel. In the Force, Vader would win.
Lack of mobility? Ever read RODV?

Vader performs acrobatic stunts, back flips and was fast enough to toy with 2 jedi knights working together trying to kill him, hell he even cancels their force attacks.


Page 287

For an instant it seemed the blade was going to pass clear through vader;s knees, but vader leapt high, half twisting in midair and coming down behind shryne. Shryne rolled as Vader's crimson shaft struck the floor.


Page 289

Vader closed the distance between him in a heart beat

Page 275

Forte and kulka went in as a team, each of them employing different lightsaber styles, determined to off balance vader

same page

Forte and kulka were skilled duelists, but vader was not only faster than starstone remembered him being on murkhana against chatak but also more agile.

Same page He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to his fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of vader's bloodshine blade.


RODV 216


His gaze fully engaged on the twirling blade, his heart hammering in his chest. Calling on the force, he tried to influence the course of the lightsaber, but either the Force wasn't with him or Vader's force abilities were overpowering his.
Originally posted by Enyalus

But this isn't a pure Force fight, it's all out. Shaak Ti was trained to deflect Force Lightning with her bare hands. I think her Force defenses would hold against a Force Choke or something similar.
Whats to stop vader from overpowering her with his force crush? Or TK that destroyed an entire platform on the wookie homeworld or destroyed a massive hut as durable as steel?

Oooooh, I like the RODV quotage.

But really, when has Darth Vader killed any Council-level Jedi? He loses to Obi-Wan. And in the Jedi Temple, Shaak Ti also duels him and manages to escape. Implying he couldn't kill her then, in his unsuited form. We all agree that he was a better duelist than in his mech form. She also fends off a dozen or so ManaGuards and is able to hold her own against General Grievous at his peak for a while.

She's a better swordsman. And better swordsmen have a habit of overcoming those who are more powerful in the Force. Anakin over Dooku and Mace over Sidious for example.

Vader>Galen>Shaak.

Take that interperative debate.

Originally posted by Gideon


The idea that Ti could even challenge Vader is somewhat preposterous. Perhaps and only perhaps with the power of Felucia behind her, but on a neutral setting? He'd convert to
Catholicism and molest her accordingly.



i think that part got burned off too bro

Originally posted by truejedi
i think that part got burned off too bro
lol I was just talking to my roommate about how Vader used the bathroom, maybe that chamber on the executor has one lol, but makes you wonder what if he reeeeeeeeeeeally had to go.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Oooooh, I like the RODV quotage.

But really, when has Darth Vader killed any Council-level Jedi? He loses to Obi-Wan. And in the Jedi Temple, Shaak Ti also duels him and manages to escape. Implying he couldn't kill her then, in his unsuited form. We all agree that he was a better duelist than in his mech form. She also fends off a dozen or so ManaGuards and is able to hold her own against General Grievous at his peak for a while.

She's a better swordsman. And better swordsmen have a habit of overcoming those who are more powerful in the Force. Anakin over Dooku and Mace over Sidious for example.

Pardon me? Where is it proven that Shaak Ti engaged Vader and escaped him? The RotS novelization has her murdered at Vader's hand, as I recall. Nothing suggests she fought him and then escaped. And Kenobi's victory is due to mental stability, not superior technique.

Originally posted by Gideon
The RotS novelization has her murdered at Vader's hand, as I recall.He kills the Gatekeeper and then runs off to find Shaak Ti. Her final fate isn't revealed until TFU.

I have not read the ROTS novel in a long time so i may be wrong, but i believe it said Anakin and the clones killed everyone in the temple, and Shaak Ti was in the temple.

Originally posted by Faunus
He kills the Gatekeeper and then runs off to find Shaak Ti. Her final fate isn't revealed until TFU.

Does he engage her?

No. Apparently she escapes during the attack

She engages him briefly, realizes she can't beat him and the 501st, and runs.

She survives the Temple's destruction. You really think she somehow snuck out unnoticed? Especially when Vader knew she was there guarding it? (He speaks to her just prior to going to Palpatine's office while Mace is there.)

I'm pretty sure it's also said she knew she couldn't defeat him and made good an escape, though. If she could have killed him, she would have

I don't recall any of this. Where it stated? The RotS novelization or some other source?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If she could have killed him, she would have

No doubt. I didn't say she could.

LS, do you remember the source?

Unfortunately, no.

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't recall any of this. Where it stated? The RotS novelization or some other source?

Ive scimmed through the ROTS book and didn't find the shaak ti fight.

no actual confrontation between the two. Anakin is searching for shaak-ti when he enters the jedi temple. The GateMaster tells him that shaak ti is in the meditation chamber, then anakin kills the gatemaster, and that's the last time the name of Shaak ti is mentioned in the novel.

But i was always under the impression that Shaak Ti died on the invinsible hand? (grievous killed her, i thought) but i guess that wouldn't make sense or Anakin wouldn't have been looking for her, and she wouldnt have been in TFU. I could have sworn i remember grievous killing her though.

Originally posted by truejedi
no actual confrontation between the two. Anakin is searching for shaak-ti when he enters the jedi temple. The GateMaster tells him that shaak ti is in the meditation chamber, then anakin kills the gatemaster, and that's the last time the name of Shaak ti is mentioned in the novel.

But i was always under the impression that Shaak Ti died on the invinsible hand? (grievous killed her, i thought) but i guess that wouldn't make sense or Anakin wouldn't have been looking for her, and she wouldnt have been in TFU. I could have sworn i remember grievous killing her though.

Non canon, sir.

deleted scenes are non-canon. you learn something new every day.

Originally posted by Gideon
The RotS novelization has her murdered at Vader's hand, as I recall.

The fact that she's alive and well in TFU kinda... retcons that, don't it?

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
The fact that she's alive and well in TFU kinda... retcons that, don't it?

Yessir. But that was in response to Enyalus telling me that some source had her fight Vader and then flee.

he doesn't kill shaak ti in the novelization. He kills Cin Drallig, Younglings, and the gatekeeper, I guess he never found Shaak Ti.

Originally posted by truejedi
he doesn't kill shaak ti in the novelization. He kills Cin Drallig, Younglings, and the gatekeeper, I guess he never found Shaak Ti.

Fall down some stairs, please, sir!

Yeah, we know. Currently, we're trying to find out where she supposedly did fight him.

I doubt that Shaak Ti would beat Pre-Suit Vader, even on Felucia. For me that just doesn't seem right.

Pre-suit Vader? No. Mech Vader? Yes.

Pre-suit Vader, I believe, is superior in sabers to his older counterpart.

Shaak Ti has neither the ability nor the feats to contend with Post Suit Vader. He is nothing resembling weak or unskilled.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pre-suit Vader? No. Mech Vader? Yes.

Pre-suit Vader, I believe, is superior in sabers to his older counterpart.
I concur. Pre-Suit Vader>Suit Vader.
Although Suit Vader is still a badass(in appearance).

In terms of swordsmanship only. He'd likely manhandle his former self in a contest of the Force.

Originally posted by Gideon
In terms of swordsmanship only. He'd likely manhandle his former self in a contest of the Force.

We agree there.

I simply don't think that such dominance in the Force would be as effective against Shaak Ti as it would his younger, I-stalemated-Obi-wan-in-a-Force-contest, self.

Thereby giving Ti the win.

Originally posted by Enyalus
We agree there.

I simply don't think that such dominance in the Force would be as effective against Shaak Ti as it would his younger, I-stalemated-Obi-wan-in-a-Force-contest, self.

Thereby giving Ti the win.

Except you can't prove that at all. The only arena in which she could remotely challenge Darth Vader is on Felucia.

Originally posted by Gideon
Except you can't prove that at all. The only arena in which she could remotely challenge Darth Vader is on Felucia.

Except you can't prove that at all.

At that point, Galen was no as powerful or skillful as Vader. Shaak tI hasn't demonstrated that she could challenge Vader in sabers or Force

And did you see what Vader did to Kento Marek? He'd do the same to Ti...Force prowess makes quite a bit of a difference

Originally posted by Enyalus
Except you can't prove that at all.

What makes you think that?

Moreover, I don't have to. It is your assertion that Shaak Ti can defeat Darth Vader; it is your burden to prove. That she nearly defeated Galen Marek? The Sith-lite improved dramatically according to the narrative after his six month period of "death" and second tier of assignments. Is she a beast? Certainly, but nothing indicates she could stand toe-to-toe with Darth Vader in combat.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
At that point, Galen was no as powerful or skillful as Vader. Shaak tI hasn't demonstrated that she could challenge Vader in sabers or Force

Okay? How much did Galen improve then? Can you quantify it? Nope. And that's completely false about her not being able to challenge a mech Vader. She was a master of at least two forms with advanced knowledge of at least one other. One of the Order's "great bladebeings." And someone ROTS Obi-Wan was extremely impressed with.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And did you see what Vader did to Kento Marek? He'd do the same to Ti...Force prowess makes quite a bit of a difference

Kento was a relatively unknown Jedi Knight. That compares with Shaak Ti, how?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Okay? How much did Galen improve then? Can you quantify it? Nope. And that's completely false about her not being able to challenge a mech Vader. She was a master of at least two forms with advanced knowledge of at least one other. One of the Order's "great bladebeings." And someone ROTS Obi-Wan was extremely impressed with.

What?

So, on the basis that Obi-Wan Kenobi was impressed with her, she is able to contend with Darth Vader. Okay. Guess Darth Maul could tool the shit out of Darth Bane and Exar Kun since he's regarded by an omniscient source (Complete Visual Guide) as one of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in galactic history and one of the most highly trained ones as well.



What?

So, on the basis that Kento Marek is a relatively unknown Jedi Knight, he can't compare to Shaak Ti? Guess Palpatine and Vader are leagues and leagues above and beyond Darth Bane, Marka Ragnos, and Exar Kun since they feature in quadruple the sources. Guess the same applies to Luke Skywalker circa RotJ.

Maybe, but all out he would lose all well. Anakin "in teh zone" Skywalker would own Suited Vader no matter what he threw against him. If he almost died at Maul's hands imagine him fighting this war machine.



The situation is quite different. If Kento Marek was something more then a ordinary jedi knight I think we would already know. I mean, his son was already more powerful then him and he had no training whatsoever. And vader even says he was weak when he found him

Originally posted by Gideon
What?

So, on the basis that Obi-Wan Kenobi was impressed with her, she is able to contend with Darth Vader.

Clever. But no. Not on the basis...



Originally posted by Gideon
What?

So, on the basis that Kento Marek is a relatively unknown Jedi Knight, he can't compare to Shaak Ti?

Correct. Unless you care to show me some some of his feats and what he has done which compare to Shaak Ti's skill and power?

I'm not responding to that until you address the entire response, Enyalus.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Okay? How much did Galen improve then? Can you quantify it? Nope. And that's completely false about her not being able to challenge a mech Vader. She was a master of at least two forms with advanced knowledge of at least one other. One of the Order's "great bladebeings." And someone ROTS Obi-Wan was extremely impressed with.
Vader was a master of Djem So with knowledge of at least three others, if not mastery of some himself. Likewise, Anakin was considered one of the greatest duelists in the Order and as Vader made a nice habit of destroying skilled fighters, ranging from Emperor's Hands to escape Jedi.
If Obi was impressed with Shaak Ti, he'd be a bit more impressed with the guy who defeated Asajj Ventress and killed Cin Drallig alongside several others.



Shaak Ti's not exactly a well of great feats. Vader's demonstrated extreme speed, strength and prowess.

Yes. But then again, Vader was also beaten by a Tuskan Raider, a bounty hunter not named Boba Fett, and nearly lost to Darth Maul.

From what I know about Shaak Ti, she doesn't have the kind of low showings that suited Vader does.

And if you want to say Vader beats her, that's fine. I say Shaak Ti beats him. It's a hypothetical battle, afterall.

Respond to my post, Enyalus.

I responded to the valid parts. The rest was a strawman. It doesn't equivocate to what I was saying.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yes. But then again, Vader was also beaten by a Tuskan Raider, a bounty hunter not named Boba Fett, and nearly lost to Darth Maul.
Tusken Raider and bounty Hunter showings, please. And 'nearly' lost to Maul? Maul would waste Shaak Ti.



She has few showings beyond getting beaten by Grievous and fighting in the Clone Wars

Issue is, one has some evidence behind it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I responded to the valid parts. The rest was a strawman. It doesn't equivocate to what I was saying.

You showed such promise... and now you devolve to cop outs.

This is your original post:



You state that Shaak Ti can challenge Darth Vader and then proceeded to cite the reasons for such a notion as the level of Obi-Wan's respect for her and that she is considered one of the Jedi Order's finest swordsmen (without even mentioning the proper source).

My response to you was thus:



None of that is a strawman. It's an application of your chosen logic, except mine has the benefit of being supported by cited, omniscient sources. You've got Obi-Wan's opinion.



And there we have it. You just lied to me and everyone present. Moreover, you didn't even bother trying to give a valid "basis" for your opinion. Instead, you posted this:



This is, in all honesty and without malice, the worst line of reasoning from an intelligent person I have ever seen. You charge in, guns blazing, throwing out notions and assertions ad infinitum. When called out on them, you deflect, lie, and then culminate with this: the king of all excuses. It's the equivalent of saying "I can say whatever I want because it's a hypothetical battle; respect my opinion because it is without basis."

You're arguing semantics with me, and you should know by now that it's not going to get you anywhere; you're losing it. You have two visible options: come up with a logical basis or concede the point.

Gideon, you took one part of my argument and attempted to twist it so that it was the only argument I made for her. Which it wasn't. Moreover,I don't need to cite the source when we know it. Now, if the quote wasn't known or was vague - certainly, then I would cite it.


She's a better swordsman than he is. He's been beaten with a blade by Obi-Wan, Maul, Starkiller, and ROTJ Luke off the top of my head. Crow all you want to about him killing some younglings and Jedi Knights - Shaak Ti is an exceptional Jedi Master and Council member. She's a consular, meaning she focuses mostly on Force training and thus wouldn't be as susceptible to Force-based attacks like what Vader uses on Kento Marek, for example. Darth Vader has never defeated someone on or above her level. There is no evidence he can defeat her.

And if you want me to use poor logic, I can use Rampant Ox's excuse: "she's a master of the ultimate dueling form, Makashi."

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, you took one part of my argument and attempted to twist it so that it was the only argument I made for her.

One part of your argument? You used it as the entire crux of it. Nitpicking for inappropriate and invalid logic isn't a crime and you might as well get used to it. As we see from your own words, you subscribed to a ridiculous brand of logic, and once I used it to apply a syllogism, you realized I clubbed you to death with it. Rather than address it, or concede that point, you chose to deflect and lie. That is entirely without justification. It's inexcusable.



Where is the rest of your vaunted argument? All I recall is that she managed to nearly kill Starkiller. That is not an argument.



It's a good habit. And, as displayed in my examples, that she is regarded as a highly competent swordswoman is irrelevant. Masters Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto were also regarded as celebrated combatants, but were still easy victims to an opponent whose command of the Force exceeded theirs.



Prove it.



One of the Jedi's most capable Masters, the unparalleled master of Soresu, and Skywalker's mentor and friend for over a decade, capable of predicting exactly what moves he is capable of summoning according to the Complete Visual Dictionary? That Obi-Wan?



One of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in galactic history, one of the highest and sharpest trained Sith apprentices in galactic history, and an apprentice who pushed his physical and Force-assisted abilities "to the utmost" (all according to the Complete Visual Dictionary)? The apprentice who is a "high end master of multiple forms" (Fight Saber)? That Darth Maul?



The same Starkiller who defeated General Rahm Kota, Kazdan Paratus, Shaak Ti herself, and who pulled down a Star Destroyer? That Starkiller?



The same Skywalker who tapped into his anger and hatred against a father who wasn't attacking him to his full ability? The same Skywalker who, years later, after being defeated and tortured by Gethzerion, would muse: "So this is what it would have been like if Vader tried to kill me." That Skywalker?



He casually defeated Cin Drallig, the Order's training instructor and battlemaster while simultaneously gripping an apprentice.



Prove it.



Prove it. Or, better yet, try proving your own case.



It's actually far better logic than what you're using. You need to face facts. Rather than listen to my constant mantra (COVER YOUR ASS), you dropped your trousers and bent over for all to see. Swallow your pride, concede your embarrassingly stupid point, and save some face, Enyalus. You made a great mistake and you refuse to rectify it and you know it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, you took one part of my argument and attempted to twist it so that it was the only argument I made for her. Which it wasn't. Moreover,I don't need to cite the source when we know it. Now, if the quote wasn't known or was vague - certainly, then I would cite it.


She's a better swordsman than he is. He's beaten with a blade by Obi-Wan, Maul, Starkiller, and ROTJ Luke off the top of my head.

All of whom Shaak Ti has fought and defeated, right? Obi-wan circumstances are explained, Maul is an incredible fighter and far superior to Shaak Ti. Starkiller KILLED Shaak Ti and Luke, according to the ROTJ novel, was apparently just that good.

By contrast, Vader also killed more Jedi than just about anyone else, including Nespis's VIII's guardian, Ranik Solusar, Kento Marek, The Dark Woman, Roan Shryne, quite a few Jedi on Kessel when they ambushed him eight on one?

'Better swordsman' based on what? High regard from Obi-wan?


So was Anakin. He was also far more powerful than Shaak Ti and more skilled.
Where are her high showings, exactly? She's lost to Grievous and Starkiller. She was once blindsided and shot by a random Zeltron thug. Where exactly are her great victories?

Vader's power in the Force is eighty percent of a being whose power eclipses Shaak Ti and he knows how to use it. If Vader lashes out with the Force, how is she going to resist?

Errr...right.
Despite superior showings in combat, superior strength in the force, speed and actually having shown us his blade skills? Despite him being too much for her when he was younger? Despite him having killed CIN DRALLIG-who IS on or above her level- in single combat, while fighting two other Jedi, using only one hand to duel and kill Cin?

In pure skill and power, Vader was above Marek. He won via intelligent fighting and strategy when he distracted Vader with thrown debris. The same is not true of his victory over Shaak Ti, whom he parried and impaled.

I want FEATS from Shaak Ti that put her above Vader. The people listed who've pushed and cold have taken Vader have one thin in common: They're above Shaak Ti, too. If she was capable of defeating Vader, she would have done so.
Vader overcame his 'clumsy' limitations very quickly and he's said to have become more dangerous with all the Jedi he killed during the Purge. he used his Djem so and modified it to add elements of Ataru and Soresu as well as Makashi to the mix. His saber style is described as polished, crisp and unpredictable and never utilizes anything less than precise, clean blows.


The form that can't generate enough kinetic energy to combat Vader's form?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, you took one part of my argument and attempted to twist it so that it was the only argument I made for her. Which it wasn't. Moreover,I don't need to cite the source when we know it. Now, if the quote wasn't known or was vague - certainly, then I would cite it.


She's a better swordsman than he is. He's been beaten with a blade by Obi-Wan, Maul, Starkiller, and ROTJ Luke off the top of my head. Crow all you want to about him killing some younglings and Jedi Knights - Shaak Ti is an exceptional Jedi Master and Council member. She's a consular, meaning she focuses mostly on Force training and thus wouldn't be as susceptible to Force-based attacks like what Vader uses on Kento Marek, for example. Darth Vader has never defeated someone on or above her level. There is no evidence he can defeat her.

And if you want me to use poor logic, I can use Rampant Ox's excuse: "she's a master of the ultimate dueling form, Makashi."

The Dark Woman IMO was just as powerful as Shaak Ti as far as the force goes, and she was a master. She was also a lot faster than Vader, but was still defeated.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The Dark Woman IMO was just as powerful as Shaak Ti as far as the force goes, and she was a master. She was also a lot faster than Vader, but was still defeated.

That may or may not be true, but you have to prove it. Simple opinion from any of us doesn't constitute as evidence.

I'd actually think Shaak was more powerful than the Dark Woman

It would be just as hard to prove Shaak Ti was more powerful than the Dark Woman. Shaak Ti was no doubt more popular than the Dark Woman was, due to the Dark Womans unorthodoxed ways. The Dark Woman has shown to be able to have some control over nature, bend light to make her invisible, and walk through solid objects(i believe).

Sidious' command of the Force during that battle was irrelevant, considering that he killed them in a lightsaber duel. His Force-enhanced speed does not prove superior command of the Force.

So no, my point was not irrelevant - what you said, however, was.



She's called one of the greatest bladebeings in the Order. An order that includes Anakin. There's your proof.



Yes that Obi-Wan. The same one who praised Shaak Ti's abilities and cunning. The same one who wasn't one of the great bladebeings.



That Darth Maul. The same Maul who was killed by a padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi. Who, again, holds Shaak Ti in very high esteem. Furthermore, an apprentice is an apprentice. He's 22. Shaak Ti is a Jedi Master and Council member And she, like Maul, is a master of multiple lightsaber forms. Seems like she's superior to him, when all this is considered.



Stop lying. The Star Destroyer was already in free fall. He stopped it from skidding into him and crushing him flat. That's what happened. Rahm Kota was a Jedi Knight who a weaker, practically neophyte Starkiller beat. Yes, all fear the great power of Kota.



The same Skywalker who had less than a year of Jedi training under his belt?



She's capable of deflecting Force Lightning with her bare hands. Logic says her Force shields are superior to an unknown Jedi Knight who was out of practice at the time Vader killed him.



There's no evidence to suggest Vader can beat a powerful PT era Council member who was called one of the greatest swordbeings in the Order, a master of multiple lightsaber forms with shielding powerful enough to toss back Force Lightning. Once you find me some, let me know and I'll happily shoot it down.



I'm sorry. I should have made my points something akin to:




Prove it or don't use it.



No, Anakin was not a Jedi Master and the only reason he was a Council member was because Palpatine made him so. More skilled? He wasn't a master of multiple forms. Shaak Ti was. That makes her more skilled.



The same way any Force user resists - Force shields.



So many things wrong with this...first, that you use examples from his time prior to being in the suit. Second, that you say 'Vader was above Marek' without any proof at all. Nice going. Third, that you fail to recognize that Shaak Ti didn't even have her blade ignited and her back was turned. She felt Starkiller dying and actually felt bad for him.



I don't care what you want. You have yet to prove that people like Darth Maul and a barely trained ROTJ Luke are superior to Shaak Ti - let alone Obi-Wan. And are you forgetting that Vader did not go to Felucia, but sent Starkiller instead? Meaning she didn't have a chance to defeat him, suited version.






This is the only large response I'll be doing tonight. (Fingers. Heh.)

With each subsequent post, you slip further and further into the abyss that is stupidity. Didn't we have this discussion via private message? It is even bigger crime to be an intelligent person and be intentionally dense; all for the sake of trying to prove a lost point.



...

Seriously? Are you being serious here? This is how you begin? I'm not so certain if I want to continue reading.

Your contention is that Sidious's command of the Force during that battle is irrelevant, and yet you cite his victory against them to be his Force-enhanced speed? Enyalus, from what does FORCE-enhanced speed derive its energy? Think about it for a few minutes before responding.



If you're going to tell me "no", do be a courteous, responsible debater and actually be right.



As I suspected, this gets shitter by the paragraph. That is not proof. That she is regarded as one of the best in an Order that includes Skywalker is irrelevant; Darth Maul is regarded as one of the highest trained and dangerous Sith apprentices in galactic history -- a history and an order that includes the likes of Darth Bane, Exar Kun, and Darth Nihilus. By applying your very same logic, he is equal to or superior to them.

This would be me clubbing you to death with your own post.



Neither was Yoda. Damn, guess they really do give out the title of Grandmaster in a raffle.

By the way, neither Darth Bane nor Exar Kun are lauded for being among the most powerful, most dangerous, or highest trained Sith in history. But Maul is. Guess he's better than they are.



Irrelevant. Darth Maul dominated both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in single combat and legitimately defeated Qui-Gon who, according to the narrator of the Phantom Menace, was still the better fighter in comparison to Obi-Wan. Kenobi gained a brief advantage by lashing out in all of his fury, but was still overpowered. I guess, though, that since Palpatine killed Windu, he's the better swordsman?



Darth Maul is a "high end master of multiple forms." Provide the source and specific statement of Shaak Ti's accolade.



I'd ask you to do it, but you already have enough to prove on your table as it is. But when you've cleared all that, you can prove this.



I'm not lying. The Destroyer was in free fall, Starkiller gripped it with the Force, turned it, and pulled it down directly over the magnetic cannon on Raxus Prime. That is what happened.



Rahm Kota was capable of repulsing Sith lightning, casually, with his bare hand (something that is "practically impossible" according to the Ultimate Visual Guide), repulsing telekinesis, and using the Force to rip off a large control room from the rest of the facility.

And, for the record, Starkiller defeated Kota when the general was in the middle of a Force epiphany.



The same Skywalker who has been lauded for natural ability and who still attached through raw anger and aggression?



Where does Ti resist Force lightning?



An accolade given to Masters Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto. Ti's hardly alone in reputation.



Name those forms.



Where?



Is it a defense mechanism to retreat into your massive ego as your entire argument crumbles around you? I commend your confidence, but must deduct points for an inappropriate time to fuel it.

Your options remain the same: prove your point or swallow your pride and concede. I'm glad to see you've given up the pitiful attempts to beat me in semantics.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Sidious' command of the Force during that battle was irrelevant, considering that he killed them in a lightsaber duel. His Force-enhanced speed does not prove superior command of the Force.

So no, my point was not irrelevant - what you said, however, was.



She's called one of the greatest bladebeings in the Order. An order that includes Anakin. There's your proof.
'One of.' Anakin and Obi-wan receive similar accolades



Are you joking? Obi-wan is called one of the finest duelists the order had produced and Mace Windu lauds him as the ultimate Soresu master



This is silly. Obi-wan managed a win only after he caught Maul VERY off guard when Maul got careless at the end. Prior to that, Maul was perfectly trained by his master and his victims included THE best Bladesbeing of the Order-who realized almost immediately he was no match for Maul and another of the finest bladesbeings of the Order who Obi-wan realized was more powerful and skilled. So she's a member of the High council...Maul destroyed an Entire Army singlehandedly of Black Sun's finest killers in 'Darth Maul' and is a firm master of multiple forms, Teras Kasi which he incorporates to his style and, again, was superior by far to the finest swordsman of the Jedi Order at the time. An order, which included Shaak Ti. As a master, given one of her Padawans died around that time.



Kota was a military genius and feared warrior during the Clone Wars who tore out a chunk of a TIE Fighter facility. He also DID pull out the SD out of the sky....and he stopped it. That's pretty big.
And that same neophyte Starkiller beat Shaak Ti, too. he was sent on those missions by Vader in very short succession.



By the same Vader holding back, from Luke who, by that point, had killed several Dark Jedi, and going by the ROTJ descriptions, was quite powerful?



Kota is capable of the same, but you downplay him.
And 'Out of practice?' Unlike Ti, Kota and Marek were active fighters in the rebellion against the Empire.



Besides that Vader's apprentice killed her? Besides that Vader has defeated numerous powerful and skilled beings?
ONE of the greatest swordsbeings in the order. ONE OF. Not THE greatest. Vader is described as the greatest Jedi killer who ever lived and his abilities with a saber only increase during the Pirge when he overcomes his suit's limitations. Roan Shryne was one of the greatest swordsmen of the Order and Vader killed him. Ma'Kis was considered 'unstoppable' in combat and Vader struck him down while occupied with three-four other Jedi.




See above;



Uhhhh, yes he was. He uses several from Dooku's POV and then switches to his Djem So. As Vader, he incorporates a mastery of Ataru, Soresu and Makashi to his style. And likely Juyo and Shien as he trained Starkiller in them and Dooku once noted him in a Shien stance.
Anakin was considered one of the most powerful Jedi alive. He was kept from the Council due to reasons not related to his skill or power which nobody in the Order doubted.

And what, was Shaak Ti more skilled than Dooku as Dooku is only known as a master of Makashi?



Which, when facing enemies more powerful, yield. Vader is unquestionably more powerful in the force than Shaak Ti. Are you honestly going to dispute that?



He improves from there. His skills are described as only being sharpened from the numerous Jedi he kills in the Purge

Read the TFU novel. Vader is more powerful than Starkiller who beats him via distracting him and capitalizing on those gains. As a duelist and in force powers, Starkiller is outmatched. he wins because he's smart.

Read the Novel? The fight's a bit different. She is legitimately beaten no matter WHAT the medium. In the book, she engages him in saber combat and he runs her through.



Uh, yeah, Maul, who crushed the finest swordsman alive and defeated another of the finest swordsmen considered on par with Mace Windu is inferior to Ti. Luke who beat a Vader notably not trying to kill him and since you love using Obi-wan as an example,. you damn well better accept the Cin Drallig victory, because it's either suited or not.
And according to death Star the novel, Vader was too powerful for Obi-wan in their duel. He was going to lose no matter what.



And? When has Shaak Ti defeated any of the people who fought Vader? Vader's proved himself in combat. He's displayed exceptional strength, speed and skill throughout the Force.

Shaak Ti isn't comparable to the highest order. She is not to the level of Dooku, Mace, Yoda or Palpatine in combat, she is not Obi-wan's equal or superior. In fact, when she faces Grievous, she is outmatched completely and he leaves her for dead. Anakin is superior to her and she's only able to escape rather than finish him then.

She is very skilled. She is one of the finest saber beings in the order. So are Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto. Problem is that doesn't translate to absolutely being able to crush anyone and everyone else and not enough to set her over some as skilled and monstrous and powerful as Vader who has only improved since his defeat. He's not so flashy any more because he's much more precise, quick to the kill and clean.

Again, Shaak Ti is blindsided by a Zeltron thug and shot and nearly killed in the Clone Wars. She is crushed by Grievous, she is killed by Starkiller.

None of this translates to 'able to stand against Vader.' Using Vader's defeats means nothing if Shaak Ti doesn't have better showings against them.




You could concede and save yourself the trouble, of course

Force power and Force reserves. Unless you're wanting to say that a neophyte Bane had superior command of the Force, or Darth Maul has superior command of the Force, or that Anakin has superior command of the Force as of ROTS.

You either misspoke or you're wrong. Which is it? Killing someone with a lightsaber doesn't prove anything about their command of the Force.



Only because you lack the ability to apparently comprehend what you write. Maul was considered the deadliest Sith apprentice. I didn't know Bane, Kun, and Nihilus were apprentices. No, I'm fairly certain that they were Dark Lords of the Sith.

Thank you for exposing your sad level of reading comprehension.



And this is cited where?



Did Palpatine beat Windu in a duel? No? Oh. There goes that remark.



Shaak Ti is a master of Ataru and Makashi with knowledge of Jar'Kai. Master of multiple forms. The end.



From an inferior version of Starkiller power wise. And still lost.



She's a consular. They are trained to. (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook)



Irrelevant. Unless you plan on making a case for why suited Vader defeats those three.



Done.



Me, too. That gets tiring. I don't know how you manage to do it.



Of his time. Let's not leave that out.



Right. And Depa takes out an entire warship in 11 seconds. Depa, by the way, is a Council Member.



I didn't know being a military genius translated to dueling skill or Force power. And no, the Star Destroyer was already disabled and in free fall, going to crash into the facility where Starkiller was.

Also, Kota was beaten outright by SK. Even having his own lightsaber bent back into his eyes. Shaak Ti held every advantage in their meeting (against a more powerful Starkiller), and lost when she is stabbed in the back without her saber ignited.



'Quite powerful'. Oooh!



Vader didn't kill Kota, so that portion has no bearing. As for Ti's activity - she trained Maris Brood. I think that says enough about her level of activity, when compared with using explosives to blow up ships and cutting stormtroopers in two.



Roan is never referred to by the praise or hyperbole that is said about Shaak Ti. And Ma'kis and others were cut down by Darth Vader and the 501st legion backing him up.



Yes. He's familiar with them. Everyone is familiar with Shii-Cho. Duh?



Man, I know that must have been a mistake, but I'm going to point it out anyway - Dooku was a noted master of every lightsaber form.



And by your previous contention, Vader is more powerful than Starkiller. Explain why he's knocked on his ass by Starkiller's blast, then?

Your 'yielding' shield theory isn't entirely true. Kas'im shields did not yield to Bane's telekinetic blast capable of collapsing an entire temple. Is Kas'im more powerful than Bane?

Her shields would hold. She'd get close and duel, and she'd win with superior skill, speed, and agility. That is my stance.



Really? So, potentially for being 200% of the Emperor, now down to 80% is an improvement? Having your speed reduced by an unwieldy suit is an improvement? Being in constant pain from the Sith injections you have to take is an improvement?



This is great. If true. I love Vader. I hate that little punk Marek. I'll happily concede this point.



What's it say in the A New Hope novel?



Could...but where's the fun in that? Besides, I gave Shaak Ti a 5.5-6 out of 10 win in this thread, while she's on Felucia...you and Gideon act as though I've committed some great sacrilege.

Hence why those two of those "celebrated swordsmen" did nothing but gape as Sidious ran them through, why the third was killed after a brief clash of blades, and why the fourth was driven back into the main office, despite the fact that they had the advantage of both superior numbers and the fact that they were in combat stance long before their enemy did.

Skilled and fine swordsmen they may be, but the Emperor was their far superior in Force command, hence why he was able to move at speeds that they were incapable of.



Neither, actually. I cover my ass to a degree far greater than you. This has been demonstrated numerous times, so why you continue to try to assert that I'm wrong remains a mystery.



It does when you move at far greater speeds than your opponent, actually.



As was Maul. By definition, Sith apprentices are Dark Lords of the Sith. The only titular difference is the rank of Sith Master. Unless your contention is that Bane was given the rank and status of Sith Master even during his tenure at the Academy.



And thank you for being so excruciatingly easy to entrap. LOL. "Great Force-enhanced speed has nothing to do with a great command of the Force!"



The narrator of the RotS novel never refers to Yoda as a prodigious swordsman. Since he doesn't, I guess Shaak Ti is the greater duelist.



Did Obi-Wan beat Maul in a duel? No? Oh. There goes that remark. See? Painfully easy to entrap.



Prove all of that and provide the exact statement. But, as Lightsnake is fond of saying, General Kota actually demonstrated the same technique.



Not irrelevant. One, because I say so. Two, because they were casually defeated by a Lord of the Sith with a greater command of the Force. Reputation alone didn't put Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto on par with the Emperor; reputation alone doesn't put Ti on par with Vader.



"Done" = "I sincerely apologize, Gideon, for being an absolute moron and am impressed with how handily you schooled me"?



Not being pitifully dense helps. A requirement you, sadly, don't meet.

While I agree with you overall, I have to say that this is a bit shaky. Anakin had terrible command of the force, but had exceptional Force Speed nonetheless. I have always operated under the premise that Force Speed is fueled by base Force Potential, while Force Mastery allows for more powerful and precise applications of Force. (caps are all intentional)

EDIT: On the re-read, that was kind of jumbled. Bottom Line:
Force Speed is instinctive, and is produced intuitively. Force mastery is entirely dependant upon instruction or thought.

Anakin's instinctual command of the Force is awe-inspiring, Jbill. We're not talking about mastery of esoteric Sith arts and techniques.

Edit: And just to clarify, Anakin hasn't demonstrated speeds of Yoda or Sidious.

AHH!! I think I caught you!

Enyalus is saying that Force Speed alone is not an accurate gauge of Force Mastery. You are saying that Sidious used his Mastery to increase his speed. Your disagreement stems from the method of increasing speed via the Force- is it instinctive or learned? I brought up Anakin as an example that it is instinctive- he didn't need any training of any kind for the advanced speed he shows in the podrace. Here is a technique that is far from esoteric- a six year old knows it . The evidence here points away from increased speed being a specific technique or a result of Force Mastery. Can it be increased by study? Possibly. To prove so will be difficult, and would be on your shoulders.

Originally posted by Jbill311
AHH!! I think I caught you!

You can try.



Not bursts of speed or "quick reflexes." But to be truly fast amongst master swordsmen? A great command of the Force is required.



I am saying that it is a sign of his mastery, hence why he was able to dwarf the three assembled swordsmen in his office.



Speed and reflexes enhanced by the Force can be instinctual, sure. But we're not arguing about being "fast." We're arguing about being fast amongst "celebrated swordsmen."



You misunderstand entirely. I'm not saying that Force speed requires an extraordinary mastery of the Force. But to be truly fast amongst master Jedi and Sith? It is.



Of course it is.



I have. Remember my mantra: cover thy ass.

Close, grasshopper, but not quite!

You're saying that three Jedi Masters, who were some of the greatest bladebeings the Order had ever produced, were killed by Palpatine because his command of the Force (read: mastery/knowledge?) allowed him to move faster than them? You think that somehow the elite swordsmen somehow don't know the trick, or that they weren't moving at "super" speeds themselves?

No. Palpatine's power was greater than theirs. He had more power to summon up and pour into his Force speed, that's why he was faster than them. If Force speed takes superior command of the Force to use, then all hail Kaox Krul for being able to speedblitz opponents moving as fast as a full throttle speederbike.



Power and Force reserves. Not knowledge/mastery/command of the Force. Any novice Jedi or Sith can utilize Force Speed. The reason they can't move as fast as Palpatine or Yoda? Power.



It mentions deadliest Sith apprentice, not deadliest Sith Lord. And yes, Bane during his time at the Academy would qualify. He and the other students of the academy are referred to as Sith apprentices. And he never officially completes his training. So at that time, he's an apprentice and the quote would affect him.

Later, however, he proclaims himself Dark Lord of the Sith and as the founder of a new Order, is clearly no longer an apprentice. The quote you cited has no bearing on Dark Lords whom we know completed their training. Unless you think that Darth Maul is deadlier than Darth Sidious.



You have yet to entrap anything. Force Speed is a basic ability for the Sith and for the Jedi. The requirements? A basic knowledge of the Force, the technique to be known, and power. Once again, I'll cite Bane's example - able to become 'a blurr of motion,' to the eyes of other Sith apprentices and strike Sirak thrice before any of them could register it. He has a great command of the Force? Compared to Jedi Masters and some of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order had produced? Really?



Oh, in other words it is your guess that he's not on that list of greatest bladebeings. Thank you for the backhanded concession.



Did I ever claim Obi-Wan was a better swordsman than Maul? No. Get your foot out of your mouth.



I gave you the source. It's not my job to rummage through sources to please you. Look it up if you want it, or take my word for it. But, to go along with that, if Kota could perform such a feat, then its more than reasonable to think Shaak Ti could as well - even without the source I cited. Why? Higher rank. More direct knowledge with other masters. More clearance and direct knowledge of other sources/holocrons to learn from.



They were defeated by a Lord of the Sith, who incidentally happens to have a greater command of the Force than they do.

He stabs them. That takes a great knowledge of the Force, how?

Furthermore, I didn't say Ti is on par with Vader. Powerwise, Vader is superior. Speed and skill wise? Not so much.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Force power and Force reserves. Unless you're wanting to say that a neophyte Bane had superior command of the Force, or Darth Maul has superior command of the Force, or that Anakin has superior command of the Force as of ROTS.



You either misspoke or you're wrong. Which is it? Killing someone with a lightsaber doesn't prove anything about their command of the Force.
Errr...typically one is a decent saber duelist AND a powerful Force User



He's also referred to as one of the deadliest of the Sith line. And at one point, Nihilus and Bane were apprentices.



Vader is a master of both of those, with at least a knowledge of Jar'Kai, along with knowledge of Soresu, Juyo and pure mastery of Djem So.



This should give us a hint about how good SK is



Even for the most powerful Jedi master, this is borderline Impossible when wielded by a powerful opponent.
As the Visual Guide is newer, it is kind of going to be the source used. IS there an instance of Ti deflecting lightning with her hands?



I'm illustrating the differences in the gaps between them. Ti was NOT considered equal to Tiin, Kit or Agen.



Just 'The' Master. Period. As one of the best duelists ever and his showing against Grievous, Obi-wan is a pure freaking demon with Soresu.
And is Shaak Ti not of Obi's time?



Source, please....this I don't recall.



It's still Starkiller who pulls it down out of orbit. And Kota was not only a genius, he was considered extremely powerful and let's not forget his master was YODA and he participated in some of the most hazardous conflicts of the Clone Wars.
Are you really going to deny Kota is lacking in power or ability?

Perhaps I am incorrect, but Shaak Ti attacks him and he parries her saber, and then drives his own through her.

Kota was also suddenly shocked and confused about seeing himself in Starkiller's future. Ti, in the novel, is on the offensive when she's killed



Ok. Immensely powerful? Tapping into the Dark Side? When Vader is notably not trying to kill him?


Doesn't have much a problem with him either.

Training a Padawan is not comparable to participating in active combat.



Roan was considered an exemplary duelist, one of the Order's finest. He can't best Vader at Vader's lowest point

And Vader had all but three of the group dead by the time ANY Clone showed up. In the melee, Ma'Kis and one other Jedi are killed instantly while Vader is fending the others off simultaneously.
Again, this is before Vader's clumsiness leaves him and he becomes even superior.



Your point here? He also notes Shien, and Anakin incorporates Ataru, Makashi and Soresu...he also trained Starkiller in Juyo, Soresu and Shien.



Where? For that matter, where is Yoda noted to be a master in anything besides Ataru? Are you going to argue for



Presumably because by the final blast, Vader's been battered too much to defend himself. Starkiller takes advantage of Vader's distraction to gain the advantage and damage his leg.

A desperate Force Wave isn't comparable to a vicious, focused attack. Qordis was more powerful in the Force than Kas'im was...look how easily Bane tore through his shield.

In the Force, Shaak Ti can't hope to touch Vader. If he goes for a kill there, how the hell can she block? Her defenses are not up to par against someone like him.

Except...she doesn't have superior skill. At all. Vader is a master of multiple forms. When he was a Jedi, his skills likely exceed Shaak Ti, who was CRUSHED by Grievous twice. He's improved since now that he incorporates other styles as well

Superior speed? Vader's movements are not slow, they're precise. He's fast enough to counter four-five Jedi knights and masters attacking him from all sides and kill several of them. He kills the best of the Imperial Guard trainees, whose defenses and offenses are describes as 'flawless' and 'perfect'...yet Vader toys with him as if he's a child, absolutely dazzling the trainees with speed and agility.

Agility? Why didn't the Dark Woman kill Vader when she was vaulting around him, then? At what point has Shaak ti EVER demonstrated superior speed or agility?


Vader's 'clumsiness' and slow speed in the suit fades after Kashyyyk.
His potential was killed and he was only 80 percent of Palpatine, but guess what? That's still higher than most anyone ever achieves. In skill, he honed his skills in the purge and improved dramatically.

Learning to overcome your weaknesses is part of improving.



Look at in the game even how Starkiller takes the lead. He distracts Vader and hits him then, not allowing Vader to recover



To my knowledge, Luke just sees them fighting and the descriptions from their duel are vague enough to not give us much.
Death Star's pretty clear that advantage: Vader



Even that's a bit absurd. There's little Marek could do that she couldn't....skill at the time? Advantage: Vader, whose saber knowledge as it stands, exceeds Ti's with his mastery and knowledge of quite a few forms. Power? Yeah, moving on from there. Speed, agility? When has Vader ever really been hampered by it? Before he 'got the hang' of his suit, he was amazingly formidable. He's clean, precise, fast and agile when he wants to be...thing is, he prefers it quick and to the point.

Ti has very little chance against him. Better than most, though.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You're saying that three Jedi Masters, who were some of the greatest bladebeings the Order had ever produced, were killed by Palpatine because his command of the Force (read: mastery/knowledge?) allowed him to move faster than them? You think that somehow the elite swordsmen somehow don't know the trick, or that they weren't moving at "super" speeds themselves?

You're characteristically not paying attention, Enyalus. How many more times are we going to have to go round and round in this dance, me constantly entrapping you and exposing your fallible logic and your rebuttals getting shorter and shorter?

Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto are regarded as celebrated swordsmen. Nowhere are they regarded for immense Force aptitude. What does that mean? Like Anoon Bondara, whose skills and technique are arguably greater than any Jedi in the Order as of the Phantom Menace, he hasn't demonstrated Force ability on par with the upper tier Jedi Masters. So, while he might, say, have greater discipline and technique than Yoda, he would still get his ass handed to him because Yoda can use the Force to enhance his physical attributes in ways that Bondara cannot.



Nonsense. If you attribute it to raw power only, then Luke Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker would dwarf their opponents in speed. Yet they don't. Skywalker can't move faster than Obi-Wan, who was nearly assigned to the Agricultural Corps for an alarming lack of great Force aptitude.



False, sir. Otherwise, as stated above, Anakin and Luke Skywalker would move twice as fast as the Emperor or Yoda. They don't.





Christ, you're missing the point entirely, Enyalus! That is the whole point: even though Darth Maul is regarded by an omniscient source as one of the most highly trained and dangerous Sith apprentices in history, it does not mean that he is necessarily better than those who have not received such accolades. That Shaak Ti is regarded as one of the Jedi Order's finest swordsmen does not put her on equal or superior footing to Anakin Skywalker before or after his submission to Sidious. At best, it implies that they might be in the same ballpark, but you were using it as the basis to try to shove the idea that "Shaak Ti is greater than Anakin/Vader!!1!" upon us. And it simply doesn't hold weight.



Of course Bane has a ridiculous command of the Force, he's an uber-Force user. He's not weak, he's not subpar, he's not even average.



WTF?

You. Miss. The. Point. It skyrocketed over your head days ago. You were using the omniscient narrator's regard of Shaak Ti to enforce the poorly constructed opinion that she is equal to or superior to Anakin/Darth Vader because Skywalker wasn't explicitly regarded as such. That same source never identifies Yoda as one of the "greatest swordsmen" in the Order, so if we apply your logic, Shaak Ti is automatically greater than Yoda.





You tried to use this as a basis to undermine Maul's status to try to force your own agenda. If it wasn't your intention to insinuate that Obi-Wan was superior, then your entire series of responses on this subject is irrelevant.



It is your job to provide the source. Your job is to prove your point. You prove your point by providing evidence, not by spouting out the name and expecting everyone else to do your job for you. You will give me the source and its explicit sentence or you will drop it. And we don't go by assumptions or supposition around here. Until Shaak Ti is proven to be capable of deflecting Force lightning, it will not and cannot be assumed that she can. Period.



Exactly.



Because he can channel and focus his potency in ways that they can't, including the augmentation of physical abilities to move at speeds that they can't compete with.



You still haven't met your burden.

i thought obi-wan was sent to the agri-corps because qui-gon was at the time too caught up with his past experiences with Xanatos to choose obi-wan before his 13th birthday, the final age at which a master could choose an apprentice..
that and the fact he was dared into fighting bruck unofficially, and sent as punishment due to the false injuries that bruck claimed to have because of the fight..

Originally posted by MadMel
i thought obi-wan was sent to the agri-corps because qui-gon was at the time too caught up with his past experiences with Xanatos to choose obi-wan before his 13th birthday, the final age at which a master could choose an apprentice..
that and the fact he was dared into fighting bruck unofficially, and sent as punishment due to the false injuries that bruck claimed to have because of the fight..

Erm, not according to Nai. But, of course, you could be right.

vaders great force would destroy shaak ti
he doesnt even need a lightsaber

Originally posted by Gideon
Edit: And just to clarify, Anakin hasn't demonstrated speeds of Yoda or Sidious.Gideon is correct here. What he's apparently not getting across, Enyalus, is that while Force-potential is a key factor in moving at high speeds - it basically sets a cap on how fast an individual can go - that alone is not enough. One must have a high degree of control and mastery to capitalize on that power. That's how "full potential" is achieved; when raw power can actually be controlled to the greatest extent possible.

While Anakin presumably had the greatest potential of anyone in the mythos, he clearly lacked a respectable grip on his power. Sidious, on the other hand, combines exceptional raw power with an absurd level of mastery. Only Yoda - nine hundred years-old, the second-greatest Force-potential in the old Order, and a nigh unparalleled control of the Force - and Luke Skywalker (duh) can definitively be said to be capable of moving at speeds comparable to those of Palpatine, and even saying Luke can is an assumption.

Originally posted by Faunus
Gideon is correct here. What he's apparently not getting across, Enyalus, is that while Force-potential is a key factor in moving at high speeds - it basically sets a cap on how fast an individual can go - that alone is not enough. One must have a high degree of control and mastery to capitalize on that power. That's how "full potential" is achieved; when raw power can actually be controlled to the greatest extent possible.

While Anakin presumably had the greatest potential of anyone in the mythos, he clearly lacked a respectable grip on his power. Sidious, on the other hand, combines exceptional raw power with an absurd level of mastery. Only Yoda - nine hundred years-old, the second-greatest Force-potential in the old Order, and a nigh unparalleled control of the Force - and Luke Skywalker (duh) can definitively be said to be capable of moving at speeds comparable to those of Palpatine, and even saying Luke can is an assumption.

obviously windu did. And before anyone gives the usual "That was a superconducting loop blah bah" consider the fact that it was also his LIGHTSABER STYLE. Its what he did. It means from the second he raised his lightsaber, he was going to move at a speed that matched his opponent. It doesn't belittle his speed at all.

And to flip your last sentence, saying that Palpatine can move at the speed that Luke can is also an assumption. Doesn't make it wrong.

Windu moved as fast as Palpatine only when he was dueling him, and only because his opponent was a dark-sider. Against someone like Yoda, he would be fighting under his own power.

Of course, Shatterpoint and Labyrinth of Evil, to say nothing of the CWC, make it very clear that the man is capable of moving at absurd speeds on his own; the fact that he survived Palpatine's initial barrage and then proceeded to "overpower" him should be evidence enough of that.

I do sort of think Mace might have....hesitated just a bit to let Palpatine cut down Kit Fisto.

I dunno, maybe Kit swiped the last burger the night before and Mace was sore at him

Kit strikes me as a hummus kinda guy.

I'm just saying, Mace might have been mad for one reason or another

Maybe he just wanted the glory for himself. I mean, he almost had B.M.F. inscribed on his lightsaber hilt, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched.

Also, notice Palpatine really seems to devalue servants? In JvS, he calls Sedriss a 'moderate Force sensitive' and 'Capable errand boy' but nothing worthy of a Sith Apprentice...same Sedriss who matched Ood bnar. And he also calls Ventress an 'occasionally' capable warrior, nothing more or less.

Also...Sedriss being a descendant of Ulic is a little silly. What, did Ulic knock up some random space babe and never call back?

Originally posted by Faunus
Gideon is correct here. What he's apparently not getting across, Enyalus, is that while Force-potential is a key factor in moving at high speeds - it basically sets a cap on how fast an individual can go - that alone is not enough. One must have a high degree of control and mastery to capitalize on that power. That's how "full potential" is achieved; when raw power can actually be controlled to the greatest extent possible.

While Anakin presumably had the greatest potential of anyone in the mythos, he clearly lacked a respectable grip on his power. Sidious, on the other hand, combines exceptional raw power with an absurd level of mastery. Only Yoda - nine hundred years-old, the second-greatest Force-potential in the old Order, and a nigh unparalleled control of the Force - and Luke Skywalker (duh) can definitively be said to be capable of moving at speeds comparable to those of Palpatine, and even saying Luke can is an assumption.

I disagree. Anakin shows tremendous blade speed. From the ROTS novelization:

'He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture:'

And that is while Anakin is holding himself back. Dooku is clearly overwhelmed by not only Anakin's immense power, but speed. Later on, when he isn't holding back:

'In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair.'

Just like that. He's fast enough that when he's not holding himself back, a single move ended the duel. Faster than Dooku could do anything to counter. He easily outclasses Dooku in not only power but in speed. Does Anakin have superior command of the Force over Dooku? No. Does Anakin have superior knowledge of the Force over Dooku? No. Tis power...

Now, from Path of Destruction:

'When the Zabrak's desperation turned to hopelessness, every impulse in Bane screamed with the desire to take the initiative and end the fight. Instead he let the tantalizing closeness of Sirak's defeat feed his appetite for vengeance. The hunger grew with each passing second until it became a physical pain tearing away at his insides: the dark side filled him and he felt it on the verge of ripping him apart, splitting his skin and gushing out like a fountain of blood....

He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bottled up inside of him in a tremendous rush of power. He channeled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew and finally skin...

For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see.'

Sirak was the top apprentice at the Academy. He's very fast, and has at least a working knowledge of every Form, seeing as how during their first duel Bane is able to see him transitioning seemlessly from one form into another. Compare that to Bane who is relatively new at the academy (less than a year in), he doesn't have any holocrons to study and his command of the Force is so suspect that a few months earlier he couldn't use his Force powers at all. Yet he does this. How? He's able to channel the power of the Dark Side. He can handle it. He's powerful. Not because his knowledge of the Force is amazing.

From The Swarm War:

'the two Jedi were on one another, their lightsabers flashing toward each other's heads with all the speed and might they could summon.

That was the trouble with powerful men-especially younger ones. Awed by their own strength, they so often believed strength was the answer to every problem. Luke was older and wiser. While Raynar swung, he pivoted.

As Raynar's gold blade sliced the air where Luke's head had been, Luke's boot was kicking him behind the ankles, knocking his legs out from under him and stretching him out flat.'

Luke's raw power allows him to move at tremendous speeds. In The Unifying Force (which I don't have to quote) he's seen as wielding twenty blades at once. How is this possible? Power!

Sidious and Yoda are just, flat-out, overwhelmingly more powerful than the three other Masters sent to attack him. That's why he won.

I'm about to go to bed. If that isn't your entire rebuttal, please get to work on fashioning the rest. I will handle it all tomorrow afternoon.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm about to go to bed. If that isn't your entire rebuttal, please get to work on fashioning the rest. I will handle it all tomorrow afternoon.

Um. It's probably not. I didn't relook at yours. And I have a French test tomorrow, so I need sleep soon too.


But, you know...I'm not convinced that it takes superior command of the Force to move at such speeds, but hell - I'll concede the rest. I don't give a damn about Shaak Ti anyway, and Vader is cooler.

Originally posted by Gideon
Erm, not according to Nai. But, of course, you could be right.
that was what happened in the jedi apprentice series, specifically, jedi apprentice 1: the rising force...dunno if it can be considered canon, however

I remember that, actually.

Might have been retconned, though.

possibly

New news people! I read some of the fight between Starkiller and Shaak Ti in the store (I'm cheap) and I've learnt that he didn't kill her by taking her by surprise but by sheer accident. ]
It turns out that she hits him thrice in rapid succession, once across the chest, once on the arm and once right by the eye and in response to the pain, Starkiller's arm jerks and Shaak Ti is accidently impaled.
In fact Starkiller only survives becuase he blocks the eye hit with the force, which I suppose is pretty impressive.

Oh, and he also kills a rancor with force lighning.

No-one interested?

He also beats the holy snot out of Kazden Paratus.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
No-one interested?

He also beats the holy snot out of Kazden Paratus.

Which is a remarkable feat. It is arguable, of course, but based on sheer feats alone, I would say that Kazdan Paratus demonstrated a greater command of the Force than Shaak Ti or General Kota. He was, in my opinion, the second hardest opponent available in TFU (second only to confronting Darth Vader, the second time).

When Paratus faced the Jedi Trials, he actually outwitted his Master by constructing a mechanized creature from scrap parts and easily navigated himself through the Trials, given the rank of Jedi Knight automatically. It was said that, once he designed his cobbled harness to compensate for his lack of mobility, he was able to "destroy legions of Confederacy droids" by himself. A feat that we see only Windu and Yoda perform.

Add to the fact that he constructed a life-sized replica of the Jedi Temple on Raxus Prime through the Force and empowered a vast mechanized army through the Force as well, controlling them.

In short (no pun intended), Kazdan Paratus is a beast.

Originally posted by Gideon
Which is a remarkable feat. It is arguable, of course, but based on sheer feats alone, I would say that Kazdan Paratus demonstrated a greater command of the Force than Shaak Ti or General Kota. He was, in my opinion, the second hardest opponent available in TFU (second only to confronting Darth Vader, the second time).

When Paratus faced the Jedi Trials, he actually outwitted his Master by constructing a mechanized creature from scrap parts and easily navigated himself through the Trials, given the rank of Jedi Knight automatically. It was said that, once he designed his cobbled harness to compensate for his lack of mobility, he was able to "destroy legions of Confederacy droids" by himself. A feat that we see only Windu and Yoda perform.

Add to the fact that he constructed a life-sized replica of the Jedi Temple on Raxus Prime through the Force and empowered a vast mechanized army through the Force as well, controlling them.

In short (no pun intended), Kazdan Paratus is a beast.
Both Aleena Jedi are pretty beast, I mean Tsui Choi ****ed Vader in the ass, and he would have died were it not for the stormtroopers intervention

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Both Aleena Jedi are pretty beast, I mean Tsui Choi ****ed Vader in the ass, and he would have died were it not for the stormtroopers intervention Right, and it was vader versus 6-7 people, which is why tsui choi nearly killed him.

A 1 v 1 setting would be a different story.

You know what is interesting? Your one of the people that actually think vader sucks and is a pathetic sithlord.

That isn't interesting. AID's is interesting. That, not so much

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Right, and it was vader versus 6-7 people, which is why tsui choi nearly killed him.

A 1 v 1 setting would be a different story.

You know what is interesting? Your one of the people that actually think vader sucks and is a pathetic sithlord.
All I said was Tsui Choi was pretty good as well as Kazdan Paratus. In Purge its pretty clear to me that Tsui Choi was pretty damn good, but he could not defeat Vader. The Duel went like so.
Tsui Choi and Bultar Swan did not start fighting until two Jedi were dead. The Jedi Brute looking guy sliced Vader across the side, he retreated. Then the idiot with the Cortis blade went to fight Vader by herself and got wrecked with the Force. Vader then proceeded to deactivate three other Jedi's lightsabers. Including the Jedi Brute, the guy with the forked Saber, and Koffi Arana. Tsui Choi then proceeds to lob Vader's hand off. Bultar Swan slices him. Vader then fakes surrendering, Bultar refuses to kill him, But Koffi Arana thinks otherwise kills Bultar with her own Saber, then proceeds to attack Vader, who kills him with his dismembered hand still holding the cortis blade. Vader grabs Bultar Swans saber. Tsui Choi and the other two Jedi throw debris at Vader. Vader is pretty near death. Stormtroopers come, gun down the Jedi Brute Tsui Choi blocks the shots, and the other Jedi hides. Tsui Choi charges for the Stormtroopers to give his fellow Jedi a chance to run for it, Vader holds him in place with the force and the Stormtroops open fire, but not before Choi throws his saber, and cuts vader's mask in half, nearly killing him. The other Jedi dies.
Vader would defeat Tsui Choi in a 1v1 all out quite comfortably. But don't act as though Vader just cut down all 7 Jedi with ease, because were it not for the Stormtroopers he would have died.
Vader still is pwnage for doing as well as he did though, I mean the odds against him were ridiculous.

Ok i get what you are trying to establish.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
All I said was Tsui Choi was pretty good as well as Kazdan Paratus. In Purge its pretty clear to me that Tsui Choi was pretty damn good, but he could not defeat Vader. The Duel went like so.
Ok. Your point? You made it sound as if tsui choi could rape vader on his own. I know that isn't the case, but please be aware of what you type.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Tsui Choi and Bultar Swan did not start fighting until two Jedi were dead.
And that means what exactly? Once again vader is fighting seven opponents along with the fact that it happened merely 3 weeks after ROTS which would mean he had not received much dark side training yet AND he had not mastered the force to a degree as he did by TFU so obviously there was a high chance that somebody was going to kill him.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Jedi Brute looking guy sliced Vader across the side, he retreated.
Right, with vader actually trying to fend of the other jedi knights.

I still recall vader force choking the big jedi while parrying the sabwe strikes of 2 other jedi knights simaltaneously and all this despite not having much dark side training.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Then the idiot with the Cortis blade went to fight Vader by herself and got wrecked with the Force. Vader then proceeded to deactivate three other Jedi's lightsabers. Including the Jedi Brute, the guy with the forked Saber, and Koffi Arana. Tsui Choi then proceeds to lob Vader's hand off. Bultar Swan slices him.
Right, bulterswan BACKSTABBED him, there is nothing to indicate she could even challenge him in a strict 1v1 fight.

And by the time he was aware he got backstabbed, tsui choi then lobed his arm off.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Vader then fakes surrendering, Bultar refuses to kill him, But Koffi Arana thinks otherwise kills Bultar with her own Saber, then proceeds to attack Vader, who kills him with his dismembered hand still holding the cortis blade. Vader grabs Bultar Swans saber. Tsui Choi and the other two Jedi throw debris at Vader. Vader is pretty near death. Stormtroopers come, gun down the Jedi Brute Tsui Choi blocks the shots, and the other Jedi hides. Tsui Choi charges for the Stormtroopers to give his fellow Jedi a chance to run for it, Vader holds him in place with the force and the Stormtroops open fire, but not before Choi throws his saber, and cuts vader's mask in half, nearly killing him. The other Jedi dies.
I get it now, your just retelling me the story.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Vader would defeat Tsui Choi in a 1v1 all out quite comfortably. But don't act as though Vader just cut down all 7 Jedi with ease, because were it not for the Stormtroopers he would have died.
Vader still is pwnage for doing as well as he did though, I mean the odds against him were ridiculous. You are right, i'm not acting like he could pwn 7 jedi knights with ease, but he did pwn 3-4 of them before getting backstabbed slashed and then the jedi working together to overpower him.

Obviously with so many opponents, he was going to get killed eventually, especially when there were a few jedi masters.

Just remember that this vader barely had any dark side training(3 weeks after ROTS), his skills and mastery were not as strong as he was in the OT and he had what i called the "anakin skywalker syndrome", meaning he was very rash and hasty like he was against obiwan.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Ok i get what you are trying to establish.

Ok. Your point? You made it sound as if tsui choi could rape vader on his own. I know that isn't the case, but please be aware of what you type.
And that means what exactly? Once again vader is fighting seven opponents along with the fact that it happened merely 3 weeks after ROTS which would mean he had not received much dark side training yet AND he had not mastered the force to a degree as he did by TFU so obviously there was a high chance that somebody was going to kill him.
Right, with vader actually trying to fend of the other jedi knights.

I still recall vader force choking the big jedi while parrying the sabwe strikes of 2 other jedi knights simaltaneously and all this despite not having much dark side training.

Right, bulterswan BACKSTABBED him, there is nothing to indicate she could even challenge him in a strict 1v1 fight.

And by the time he was aware he got backstabbed, tsui choi then lobed his arm off.
I get it now, your just retelling me the story.
You are right, i'm not acting like he could pwn 7 jedi knights with ease, but he did pwn 3-4 of them before getting backstabbed slashed and then the jedi working together to overpower him.

Obviously with so many opponents, he was going to get killed eventually, especially when there were a few jedi masters.

Just remember that this vader barely had any dark side training(3 weeks after ROTS), his skills and mastery were not as strong as he was in the OT and he had what i called the "anakin skywalker syndrome", meaning he was very rash and hasty like he was against obiwan.
Quite so there is no need to argue Vader would pwn Tsui Choi in a 1v1, but the best Jedi at Kessel was Choi

For sure, i still think choi could at least give vader a fight, i doubt it would be "ownage" anyways.

Btw i just get fond of arguing sometimes so don't mind me when i do.

What Vader is this? Right After ROTS, ANH, ESB, ROTJ?

Personally I think any version will handle her.

All out- Vader wins 10/10, he's more skilled, more powerful, comparable in speed, stronger and more durable.

All out with Sarlaac- Shaak Ti wins 6/10. Galen was faster than the Sarlaac's blows and he had Force Lightning to try and subdue it, Vader doesn't have any of that.

All out with Sarlaac and Felucian Warriors- Shaak Ti 10/10. She could easily outmanuver Vader who is fending off the Warriors and trying to avoid the Sarlaac and she'll eventually close in and seal in the deal.

If it's right after RotS, Vader can't top Ti at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That isn't interesting. AID's is interesting. That, not so much

Urgh, prick.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Urgh, prick.

Indeed

Neph, you don't play on Harbinger for Swtor do you? There's this operative healer in PVP called Nepthys, he was pretty decent so I assumed it wasn't you.

Originally posted by Selenial
Indeed

Neph, you don't play on Harbinger for Swtor do you? There's this operative healer in PVP called Nepthys, he was pretty decent so I assumed it wasn't you.

Yeah, I only play PvE.

LOL. I'm going to friend request you when I get home and send you some nudes of my toon.

Originally posted by Selenial
Indeed
There's this operative healer in PVP called Nepthys, he was pretty decent so I assumed it wasn't you.
Admire your logic.

Reading this was scary, so little knowledge of the actual novelizations, no offense meant but seriously.

*Kanye Shrug* We were young and foolish.

Originally posted by Selenial
he was pretty decent so I assumed it wasn't you.

rofl so rude