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Itachi and Kisame fight one of the legendary sannin Jiraiya.

Who wins?

It seems you know so little about Naruto.
Or do you even REALLY read Naruto?
Itachi said it himself. He can't beat Jiraiya, even with the help of Kisame.

Itachi said that both he and kisame cannot beat jiraiya. He then said that at best they would kill him but die as well. MEaning that jiraiya would still take d majority.

Hell, they said that even with more people, they would all still die.

Which is in itself amazing considering Itachi's feats > J-Man's by a long shot.

Well, only his super cheapo moves really.

Maybe Jiraiya could avoid them? mmm

Meh.

Itachi said it himself that even with Kisame's help, they get wtfpwned by Jiraiya.
End of story.
No need for debates of who has the better feats or some other shit.

That's stupid logic, no offense.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
That's stupid logic, no offense.
Comparing feats with on-panel statements said by the characters themselves
is stupid logic

actually thats not what they said. kisame said that even though itachi would be ok against sum1 like jiraya, he himself could not take a sennin and was worried. to which itachi replied, that there was no need to fight him, and it would be putting them both in unnecessary danger, and they cudnt be sure that they would leave the battle undamaged. or sumthing like that. they never said jiraya cud BEAT them.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually thats not what they said. kisame said that even though itachi would be ok against sum1 like jiraya, he himself could not take a sennin and was worried. to which itachi replied, that there was no need to fight him, and it would be putting them both in unnecessary danger, and they cudnt be sure that they would leave the battle undamaged. or sumthing like that. they never said jiraya cud BEAT them.

No actually they did say that Jiraiya could beat them. Kisame said that maybe itachi could fight him evenly but he could not. Itachi then said that even if we both fought him we would die. He then s aid that in a good( lucky instance) case they might be able to kill him but they would still die along with him. That even with more people it would be the same scenario.
So yeah by Itachis own Admission Jiraiya >>>>He and kisame together

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Well, only his super cheapo moves really.

Maybe Jiraiya could avoid them? mmm

Meh.

Well yeah i wud think Jiraya cud avoid them. CUz by Itachis statement Jiraiya is much greater than him.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually thats not what they said. kisame said that even though itachi would be ok against sum1 like jiraya, he himself could not take a sennin and was worried. to which itachi replied, that there was no need to fight him, and it would be putting them both in unnecessary danger, and they cudnt be sure that they would leave the battle undamaged. or sumthing like that. they never said jiraya cud BEAT them. No.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Comparing feats with on-panel statements said by the characters themselves
is stupid logic

Uh- no. No it's not.

How many times have Itachi and Jiraiya fought to the death, and used all of their most powerful moves?

If they haven't, then what they say is pointless. Same goes for Deidera and Sasori. Feats are infallible, characters aren't.

well it doesnt make sense either way, since he is a sannin and didnt consider himself superior to uro and fought on nearly equal terms with him. also, uro admitted that itachi was superior.

I think it is just easier to say even Kishimoto has no real idea what the tiering system should be in Naruto.

This is what Itach and Kisame said in the japanese version

Kisame : While you may be able to manage against him, I couldn't possibly...He's in a completely different level...

Itachi : Yeah... If we go at each other, well' either both be killed or at best, kill each other simultaneously.

Itachi: Even if we increased the numbers, that wouldn't change.

Kisame : I didn't expect the kid's gauge would be a legendary Sannin. With him as the opponent...the names of the Leaf Village's Uchiha Clan and the Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist would be tarnished.

Itachi : Yeah, However... Any strong one has a weakness...


But anyway feats a meaningless as one person stated. Every fighter in Naruto fights differently. They don't all pull out their best moves every single figth and if one character states one is stronger or if the stats by Kishimoto say one character is stronger than they are.

And I mean gaurd not gauge

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown

If they haven't, then what they say is pointless.
No it's not.
Comparing feats with another character doesn't necessarily mean he is stronger than the other.

Itachi and Pein haven't fought, but looking at their power set alone, it is safe to conclude that Pein >>>> Itachi.
And I'm 100% sure Pein is stronger than Itachi, and that Itachi dies like Jiraiya or even worse.

Itachi could burn everybody with amaterasu except for the fat one who absorbs attacks. At the end, the fight would be a tie then.

Only Amaterasu is dodgable and drains his chakra. Alot.

How would Pein know where to jump? He would have to guees correctly where to. Itachi could use it when Pein is running at him, and once it starts burning, not even water can get rid of it, it keeps burning until you are ash. Jiraiya just sealed it away for study. If amaterasu connects, fight over.

Originally posted by Wil7
How would Pein know where to jump? He would have to guees correctly where to. Itachi could use it when Pein is running at him, and once it starts burning, not even water can get rid of it, it keeps burning until you are ash. Jiraiya just sealed it away for study. If amaterasu connects, fight over. Or they could all just hide behind the fat one. Then again one body dying isn't going to harm Pein. And Itachi won't be able to do it 6 times even without the threat of being attacked from multiple angles.

Not to mention we have no idea how many bodies Pein actually has. We've seen 7 already plus his true form which we haven't seen. He may have more he could just keep bringing out if one gets destroyed. And he'll be fine through it all since his real self isn't among the bodies he fights with.

Powerset.

You mean, feats.

c'mon now.


And... no. The only thing we've seen that's above even Orichimaru level from J-Man is that ultimate genjutsu, something Itachi seems to have in abundance. Itachi has a technique that can burn through anything, a doujutsu that basically makes melee combat against him void, thee penultimate genjutsu of the entire show, which can be activated just by simply looking at someone, etc. J-Man's power set (feats) are pathetic in comparison.

As for Pein, it depends. We know Itachi can ensare multiple people with Tsukiyomi. If he caught all six in it, where's the proof they'd manage to get out? No in Naruto history has on-panel gotten out of Tsukiyomi by themselves without a Sharingan.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Powerset.

You mean, feats.

c'mon now. \
By power set,
I mean the powers they possess
NOT feats.

Pein has a better power set,
possessing all 6 different chakra types.

Who's to say that he doesn't have Tsukiyomi as well?
With 6 different chakra types, he probably knows every single ninjutsu like the founder of the Ninja world.

The powers they possess, and use, are counted as feats. Performing an ability is pulling off a feat.



Irrelevant, that just means he knows a lot of elemental releases. Won't help against Itachi.





The Naruto manga itself does. Tsukiyomi is a special kekke genkai trait, meaning no one can possibly learn it unless they have the Sharingan. Having elemental releases doesn't give you the Sharingan.

I'm convinced now that you don't know very much about Naruto.

Well to be fair the Rinnegan was the first Doujutsu(and even the first ninjutsu), it is not a stretch to say that the Byakugan and Sharingan are derived from it, hell, ALL Ninjutsu is probably derived from it.

Just sayin.

Where does it state that?

It was an inference. I am not using it as fact, just as a good possibility.

The Rinnegan WAs the first jutsu and also was used by the founder of ninjutsu.

That is a good possibility, although Pein was the first to use Rinnegan I think, so i don't think it is, but it could be.

http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.21537/page.5/

Pein wasn't the first. Rikudou was.

well lets go through pain'ss powerset again

9 illusionary dragons - sealing technique initiated by pain strong enough to seal even tailed beasts

all elemental affinity - he can use all elemental chakra perfectly in affinity with it as opposed to others who only have two affinities at best

magical rain - has a jutsu which can make rain fall over his entire country indefinately which can detect any change in pattern of falling and any chakra or person even if they are using high level jutsus to hide themselves

berserker - sumthing shown when nagato was a child, he loses conciousness when in danger and easily murdered a chuunin without knowing any nijutsu techniques unconciously

has nearly unbeatable genjutsu defences in the minds of all the bodies he uses.

has 6 bodies {which are sumhow connected with foes jiraya beat before, whether that was a genjutsu or sumthing else, we dont know}

all 6 bodies share the same conciousness and percelption hence giving him multiple perspectives to fight from

according to madara, has never lost a fight in his entire life

killed the salamander who defeated konoha's entire army and te three sannin and hence gave them their title.

each body of pain's has special abilities, 1. absorbing even the most devestating attacks like oil blast lake, and ultimate raasengan of the sage form, using special black weapons, firing your fists, summongin MULTIPLE beasts all of whom are devestating in their own right even against the higher level summons and have special abilities like spouting bubbles

the bodies are practically immorta, as they were hit with an extremely high level genjutsu{which even impressed pain} and then all driven through by HUGE summoned swords, and all got right back up and went on to kill jiraya.

their ful abilities and those of the rinnegan havent been seen yet, we know that he is planning to attack and destroy konoha alone, and rikoudu, the creator of jutsus themselves and the ninja world had them, they were said to be a tool of the heavens which wud save or destroy the world.

by sealing the bijuu, pain is trying to create a weapon with the power to destroy a country in under a second and then be reused.

it is hinted that the real pain isnt even among the fighting bodies. and that konan has special powers connected with pain.

any1 who has opposed pain as of yet has died.

well, thats it for now, i know im forgetting sum feats/stuff. but judge for yourselves if itachi is stronger than pain.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually thats not what they said. kisame said that even though itachi would be ok against sum1 like jiraya, he himself could not take a sennin and was worried. to which itachi replied, that there was no need to fight him, and it would be putting them both in unnecessary danger, and they cudnt be sure that they would leave the battle undamaged. or sumthing like that. they never said jiraya cud BEAT them.

i agree

Agree. Itachi and Kisame never said they couldn't beat Jiraiya.

Yeah they did.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
No in Naruto history has on-panel gotten out of Tsukiyomi by themselves without a Sharingan.
Kirabi did it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Kirabi did it. That wasn't technically by himself. It was the demon helping him out like Chiyo and Sakura did to Naruto.

Well that's part of Kirabi's powerset to have a demon in him. Saying he couldn't use his demon is like saying Pein can't use six bodies.

But it still wasn't by himself. He had help getting out. Be it a demon inside him or somebody on the outside doing the same exact thing. That was just what I was saying.

King Kandy is just nitpicking.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Yeah they did. agreed.

Originally posted by k1Lla441
agreed.

Where does it say it? They never say that. Read it.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/144/08/

Kisame says that he may be a match for both of them at once and Itachi doesn't exactly disagree.

Where does he say that?

Kisame - That guy might be a match for the #1 of the Leaf and one of the Mist's Seven strongest.

He doesn't say Jiraiya will be a match for either one of us. He says a match for both of them.

Yes, but it never says Jiaiya could beat Itachi, and Kisame.

How odd.

Cause I distinctly remember the Japanese anime saying that he would kill both of them even with more people.

Oh well, so Jiraiya by his lonesome is a match for both of them.

did sasuke use TSUKIYOMI against kiraba?!?! i only remember that it was a GENJUTSU consisting of him being impaled by spikes. remember, that itachi and sasuke have loads of NORMAL genjutsu which arent tsukiyomi.

and i distinctly remember the japanese anime saying that kisame cudnt take him but he thought itachi cud, to which itachi replied that there wud be no guaruntee that they cud escape the battle unharmed and it wud putting them in unnecessary danger.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
did sasuke use TSUKIYOMI against kiraba?!?! i only remember that it was a GENJUTSU consisting of him being impaled by spikes. remember, that itachi and sasuke have loads of NORMAL genjutsu which arent tsukiyomi. Yeah he used Tsukiyomi.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
How odd.

Cause I distinctly remember the Japanese anime saying that he would kill both of them even with more people.

Oh well, so Jiraiya by his lonesome is a match for both of them.

Thats what the anime said. But being a match for the two of them is not that bad either.

no i just rechecked the scans, it wasnt tsukiyomi. it was just an unnamed genjutsu. jeez jaxx, ur getting senile.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no i just rechecked the scans, it wasnt tsukiyomi. it was just an unnamed genjutsu. jeez jaxx, ur getting senile. How many other Genjutsus are used with a look of the eye using Mangekyo Sharingan?

And can you provide the scan?

i just went on onemanga and looked. well plenty actually{and it wasnt itachi's mangekyo and it is coming more to light that itachi might have implanted ONLY amaterasu in sasuke's eyes} the counter genjutsu that itachi used on kurenai}, the genjutsu that itachi clone produced against naruto first time in shippuden, and i think the beginning of the fight with sasuke , he wasnt using tsukiyomi if i remember correctly.

and he didnt say "amaterasu", nor bleed from the eyes, nor was there a red moon. and amaterasu is unbateable, even if you have a BUDDY around with you like kakashi did.

oh hey that reminds me, one of the powers of pain i forgot to put down is that he has a jutsu with which he can make clones of characters with 30 percent the chakra, all battle skills and even kekai genkai abilities copied like sharingan{although mangekyo was unavailable} id say pain>>>itachi.

Well the Mangekyo was only available because of the fact that 30% chakra is too little to use it.

^ we dont know that, it cud well be just a technicality that a clone CANT have a mangekyo even if it can duplicate a normal kekai genkai. mangekyo sharingan/ultimate magekyo sharingan and rinnegan are the most special kekai genkais in the series. well i guess it just goes to show that pain is THAT much stronger than itachi.

guys its just settled giraya is the strongest
kisame compared giraiyas strentgh to that of the first hokage plus that of kisame
honestly pain and madara and probaly the third and first hokage can beat giraiya

pain said it him self giraiya could of beat him
on top of that giraaiya could of escape pain
the oldest people in naruto are usuall sstronger ill admit if itachi would have lived to be older he would probably surpass giraiya power
orochimaru called itachis sussanoo weak what does that say

Kisame questioned Itachi's retreat and Itachi replied that there was no hurry.

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/9571/35624773.th.jpg

Itachi could've most likely taken out Jiraiya.

Jiraiya could have apparently beaten Pain, had he known the details of Pain's jutsu before, all from Pain's mouth.

If we want to go by statements, that would put Jiraiya above Itachi by a fair margin.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Jiraiya could have apparently beaten Pain, had he known the details of Pain's jutsu before, all from Pain's mouth.

If we want to go by statements, that would put Jiraiya above Itachi by a fair margin. imo that was false hope, or at least context comes with that as in jiraya sneaking away and attacking nagato whom was not too far away at the time and without konan for protection/distraction.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Jiraiya could have apparently beaten Pain, had he known the details of Pain's jutsu before, all from Pain's mouth.

If we want to go by statements, that would put Jiraiya above Itachi by a fair margin.

It was technically possible- I mean, that uber-genjutsu would've gotten any number of bodies, not just 3. But I think the odds were still solidly in Pain's favor, after all the strongest one didn't even get involved.

Was just saying if we take Itachi's (vague) statement at face value, why not Pain's?

Also keep in mind how the **** would Itachi have complete knowledge of all of Jiraiya's abilities?

He wouldn't know the precise abilities but he'd be able to judge approximate level. Skilled ninja can generally get a rough impression of abilities fast (Asuma vs Hidan for example).

wasn't it Shikamaru who deduced the use of Hidan's scythe?...

I'm still unsure about the outcome of this fight. For example, how would Jiraya overcome Susanoo or Amateratsu? Then there is the Samehada fusion that could give him some trouble. Then againt Sage Mode and one of those giant toads could kill the two Atatsuki members couldn't it. So...who would actually win?

Oh! and umm...I think that was Shikamaru's deduction.

Originally posted by Q99
He wouldn't know the precise abilities but he'd be able to judge approximate level. Skilled ninja can generally get a rough impression of abilities fast (Asuma vs Hidan for example). So Itachi definately would have known about a secret mode Jiraiya had that makes him half frog and gives him awesome sound-based Genjutsu?

Because for him to know his approximate level he would have to be aware of that ability.

Hidan is a one-trick pony, that is the difference.

I wouldn't think summons would be especially good against these two, especially Itachi.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
wasn't it Shikamaru who deduced the use of Hidan's scythe?...

I'm not talking about that, but earlier shortly after they 'killed' Hidan with an ambush. He figured out how strong Hidan was before his teammates realized the threat level they were facing, here.

Shikamaru figured out the jutsu after seeing it in combat once, but Asuma figured out the approximate strength levels after just a brief clash.

I see...

but Konoha is familiar with the red cloud over black patterned cloaks that the akatsuki wear, and they know from their bingo books that they are all S-class missing nin, so I'm guessing they knew even before the fight that they were not dealing with fodder shinobi...

Yea, but there's 'strong ninja' and 'strong enough to frighten Asuma of the 12 Guardian Ninja'.

There's probably a lot of little things about a ninja and their chakra that a strong experienced ninja can judge better than most. Maybe it comes from fighting other S-class ninja that can give one the experience to tell where in the S-class a foe is.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, but there's 'strong ninja' and 'strong enough to frighten Asuma of the 12 Guardian Ninja'.

There's probably a lot of little things about a ninja and their chakra that a strong experienced ninja can judge better than most. Maybe it comes from fighting other S-class ninja that can give one the experience to tell where in the S-class a foe is.

According to Sasuke, whenever high class ninja clash, they apparently connect. That probably has something to do with Asuma's power gauging ability.

Flat out flat on panel Kisame and Itachi stated they could not beat Jiraiya and if they added more people (I am assuming he ment other Ataskuki they still could only draw.

Pain himself statedif Jiraiya would of known about their secret they would of lost.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Flat out flat on panel Kisame and Itachi stated they could not beat Jiraiya

Not really. Kisame thought Itachi could handle him.

Also, that was after Itachi used his mangekyo techniques multiple times. Going against Jiraiya, he'd want to be fresh.

Q99 he didnt say Itachi could or would handle anything. Kisame said you meaning Itachi might could manage against Jiraiya but there was no way he could because Jiraiya was on a whole different level.

Jiraiya could have beaten all of Akatsuki.

And the Juubi.

Nope AuraAngel but as I read you post you like to give opinions on things that are fact. If once character states he can't beat another character then that is that. There is no need to go but Itachi has this move how can Jiraiya stop it. Itachi said the best he, Kisame and others could do is draw. So again that is cannon so this thread should close.

uzBnqOAS7TI

Originally posted by big juggy man
Q99 he didnt say Itachi could or would handle anything. Kisame said you meaning Itachi might could manage against Jiraiya but there was no way he could because Jiraiya was on a whole different level.

And that's talking as individuals.


So in other words, in Kisame's view, Kisame < Jiraiya =? Itachi

Nope Kisame didnt say Itachi was Jiraiya's equal. He said he "might" could manage. Manage does not mean win and he said he might could not that he knew he could. He only knew he couldn't. Itachi agreed that he and Kisame couldn't win. Itachi would know something about his abilities.

jiraya would win.

From what we have seen, I will concede that jiraiya would probably lose. If what Itachi said about Jiraiya beating them was true, then Jiraiya is capable of some stuff we haven't seen yet beyond the impressive stuff we have seen.

socool8520 From what Itachi stated out of his mouth Itachi and Kisame would lose, end of story.

Because Itachi doesn't have any reason to feed Kisame a lie.

Except Itachi doesn't know Jiraya's full capabilities such as Sage Mode so his analysis is incomplete. And since Susanno wasn't invented at the time by Kishi things have changed since 2000 freaking 8.

He didnt know about sage mode but he did know about his own skill level and admit he couldnt beat him.

Originally posted by Based
And since Susanno wasn't invented at the time by Kishi things have changed since 2000 freaking 8. wut?

Originally posted by marwash22
wut?

And since Susanno wasn't invented at the time by Kishi things have changed since 2000 freaking 8.

i don't understand what that means.

Are you suggesting that Itachi didn't have Susanoo back then?

Odds are high that Susano'o was planned, though unrevealed.

It's all in the naming scheme of the other eye techniques.

Originally posted by marwash22
i don't understand what that means.

Are you suggesting that Itachi didn't have Susanoo back then?

Kishi probably didn't know what Susano'o was going to be like back then, but he definitely had it in mind for Itachi. Like Q99 said, there's the naming reference to the 2 Kami who were siblings (Ama & Tsu), who had another sibling, Susano'o.
Story-wise, Itachi had Susano'o from the moment he unlocked the MS.

Guys, let's assume Itachi could beat Jiraiya in this scenario. Is he still going to try? No, of course not. He's a good guy who wants to keep Konoha safe. Why would he kill one of it's best fighters?

Otherwise, since he didn't know about Sage Mode, we can only assume that the title Sanin intimidates him. Which also doesn't make sense because Itachi has already curbstomped a Sanin.

So yeah, he's lying. There really is nothing else that fits based on the material unless we conclude Kishi did some retconning.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Guys, let's assume Itachi could beat Jiraiya in this scenario. Is he still going to try? No, of course not. He's a good guy who wants to keep Konoha safe. Why would he kill one of it's best fighters?

Otherwise, since he didn't know about Sage Mode, we can only assume that the title Sanin intimidates him. Which also doesn't make sense because Itachi has already curbstomped a Sanin.

So yeah, he's lying. There really is nothing else that fits based on the material unless we conclude Kishi did some retconning.


Not to mention, it's actively risky even if he has the edge, and would certainly involve heavy use of MS techniques, which has side effects.

So, three reasons- Risky, depleting even if wins, goes against his actual goals.

Take your pick or use 'em all.

Dudes, character statements > logic/feats/deductions/everything else.

Though it really is lulzy how hard bigjuggyman's trying to convince us that Sarutobi > Hashirama, and Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame.

Actually Jiraiya would stomp him into dust.

We have already seen Itachi had trouble with a far inferior user of Sage Mode.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Actually Jiraiya would stomp him into dust.

We have already seen Itachi had trouble with a far inferior user of Sage Mode.

You mean the guy who didn't need help like Jiraiya did?

Kabuto has been in Sage Mode the entire arc, retard.

Considering Kabuto had the powers of a half-dozen other people in addition to his sage mode...

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kabuto has been in Sage Mode the entire arc, retard.

So why is he inferior at it?

Because he couldn't beat Itachi at the end of the day, but Jiraiya could beat both him and Kisame, at once, and likely could have taken all of Akatsuki.

Ah, I see.

You're sarcasm is inferior.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Ah, I see.

You're sarcasm is inferior.

*your

Originally posted by NemeBro
*your

Actually it would be "Your*" since it was at the beginning of a sentence.

Your mouth is at the beginning of my cock.

He said "Cock" That is funny right?

Actually he said "cock" since it wasn't at the beginning of the sentence.

What's really funny is that, no matter how he begs, I won't even look at his penis.