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Who wins

All out? Probably Marek, 6/10.

In sabers - Qui-Gon, 7/10.

Srry
1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All Out
Takes place in Palpatine's office

Marek definitely wins if he's allowed the Force, but Qui-Gon could pull off a win in the sabers.

Sabers is hard to say, in the force or all out Marek takes it

In terms of lightsaber combat, Starkiller most probably defeats Qui-Gon. He was able to defeat the likes of Shaak Ti, and did give Vader a hard time until he destroyed him with the Force. Everything indicates he has the upper hand in every way.

Yeah, but how does Qui-Gon compare to Shaak Ti and Vader in saber abilities?

My point is, Shaak Ti could be considered Qui-Gon's equal (or maybe even more skilled) in terms of saber combat, let alone Vader. I'm not trying to use A > B > C logic here, I'm saying that if Marek was able to defeat someone way more potent than Qui-Gon, and, therefore, with more skills and abilities to use against him, it's just logical to assume he would be able to defeat a lesser opponent. The situation's just that simple. There are no Ifs or Hows, there is no 'the setting's an important factor' or that sort of excuses, I simply consider Marek to be Qui-Gon's superior in every combat situation.

why would you say that shaak ti is "way more potent" then Qui-Gonn?

I was referring to Vader on that sentence.

Jinn will get the majority w/ sabers. Not looking too bright for him is the Force is taken into account.

In sabers? I'd say Jin.
Force? Marek.
All out? It's more of a draw for me. Although Marek's force powers would tip the scale over Jin's lightsaber mastery.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
My point is, Shaak Ti could be considered Qui-Gon's equal (or maybe even more skilled) in terms of saber combat, let alone Vader. I'm not trying to use A > B > C logic here, I'm saying that if Marek was able to defeat someone way more potent than Qui-Gon, and, therefore, with more skills and abilities to use against him, it's just logical to assume he would be able to defeat a lesser opponent. The situation's just that simple. There are no Ifs or Hows, there is no 'the setting's an important factor' or that sort of excuses, I simply consider Marek to be Qui-Gon's superior in every combat situation.

Isn't this the very definition of A>B>C logic?

Qui Gon has different skills and abilities than Shaak Ti and so would pose a different challenge.

Qui-Gon was incredibly skilled, on the level of Anoon Bondra, who is TEH ROCKZORS in saber skills. He was able to defeat Mace Windu, and is one of the order's best. It might be biased, but I don't want to call some upstart like Starkiller his superior. I'm trying to avoid a feat war (since I have no source material for Qui-Gon) but I'd be willing to place him above Marek in sabers, and his greater experience might just take the All Out too.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Qui-Gon was incredibly skilled, on the level of Anoon Bondra, who is TEH ROCKZORS in saber skills.

Not saber skills. Technical skills with a lightsaber.

As for the rest fo your post. No. Galen wins all out 10/10 times with the force.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Not saber skills. Technical skills with a lightsaber.

As for the rest fo your post. No. Galen wins all out 10/10 times with the force.

I said skills didn't I? Its not like I said saber ability. If I was wrong in my estimation of where the distinction was, I'm sorry. I'll be sure to use the right wording in the future. Skills means overall ability, and technical ability is just that. Noted.

As for the rest, I wasn't arguing Force aptitude. In fact, I never said a word about the Force.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I said skills didn't I? Its not like I said saber ability. If I was wrong in my estimation of where the distinction was, I'm sorry. I'll be sure to use the right wording in the future. Skills means overall ability, and technical ability is just that. Noted.

Well, for the most part I Was just being an ******* because I'm in a bad mood.

Aside from that, though, there is a disinction.

A man who builds pistols for a living has great technical skill with the pistol in question, he probably knows how to assemble one quickly, knows the recoil, etc. He knows the gun like the back of his hand. That doesn't mean that he can whoop a police officer's ass in a gun fight, though.

My main point is that having technical skills with a weapon, while impressive, doesn't hold an extreme amount of water in a combat situation... not trying to diss Anoon though. I'm sure he's a badass in his own right.



I know you didn't, but my point is that in all-out you can use the force to, and that is why Galen will win 10/10 all-out. Qui-Gon won't even be able to engage Galen in a true saber duel before he gets crushed with the force. Aside from that even if Qui-Gon does have superior dueling ability, it is marginal. That alone won't help him compensate for the gross disinction between their levels of force abilities.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Well, for the most part I Was just being an ******* because I'm in a bad mood.

Aside from that, though, there is a disinction.

A man who builds pistols for a living has great technical skill with the pistol in question, he probably knows how to assemble one quickly, knows the recoil, etc. He knows the gun like the back of his hand. That doesn't mean that he can whoop a police officer's ass in a gun fight, though.

My main point is that having technical skills with a weapon, while impressive, doesn't hold an extreme amount of water in a combat situation... not trying to diss Anoon though. I'm sure he's a badass in his own right.

Yeah, I know. I just got here in time for the 'skill vs. ability' discussion/flamewar, so I know the distinction. I was just not communicating very clearly.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown

I know you didn't, but my point is that in all-out you can use the force to, and that is why Galen will win 10/10 all-out. Qui-Gon won't even be able to engage Galen in a true saber duel before he gets crushed with the force. Aside from that even if Qui-Gon does have superior dueling ability, it is marginal. That alone won't help him compensate for the gross disinction between their levels of force abilities.

Look at Obi-Wan. Anakin outclassed him in terms of Force power, but he still managed to beat him. Superior dueling ability is capable of tipping the scales. That said, I agree that Marek is too much for Qui-Gon. I just don't like it.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Yeah, I know. I just got here in time for the 'skill vs. ability' discussion/flamewar, so I know the distinction. I was just not communicating very clearly.

By flame war are you referring to me? I'm not gonna flame you.





Obi-Wan stalemated Anakin in the force duel.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
By flame war are you referring to me? I'm not gonna flame you.

No, I mean when Gideon was B****ing someone out because they didn't agree with his interpretation of skills/ability. This was a few months ago.

You're cool. I have yet to see you come remotely close to flaming anybody.


Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown

Obi-Wan stalemated Anakin in the force duel.

He stalemated him in a force push contest. Very different. He was able to use his superior mastery to win a contest of skill. (Force push has to be learned, its not instinctive) Anakin was using the Force instinctively to make himself faster throughout the duel, which is what I was referring to. He is more powerful in the Force, and it showed.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You're cool. I have yet to see you come remotely close to flaming anybody.

Wait for it.






I wasn't aware of that. mmm

I haven't read the novilization, though.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
I wasn't aware of that. mmm

I haven't read the novilization, though.

In the novelization, the only indication about Anakin's massive Force power with respect to Obi-wan is that he's very clearly superior in strength. And hell, I guess this counts for speed, too: at one point, Obi-Wan has both their sabers and pointed at Vader's neck - Vader charges him so fast Obi-Wan can't react. Vader grabs him by the wrists, slams him against the wall and begins literally bending his arms down and backwards to the point where Obi-Wan is sure that he can feel his bones about to snap.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And hell, I guess this counts for speed, too: at one point, Obi-Wan has both their sabers and pointed at Vader's neck - Vader charges him so fast Obi-Wan can't react. Vader grabs him by the wrists, slams him against the wall and begins literally bending his arms down and backwards to the point where Obi-Wan is sure that he can feel his bones about to snap. First off, that's the point where Kenobi actually hesitates to strike and kill and unarmed Anakin.

Second, Anakin doesn't "charge so fast can't react," he Force-pushes him into the wall.

Third, Anakin's vastly superior raw power doesn't allow him to overpower Kenobi in a Force-push contest. That is not up for debate.

Originally posted by Faunus
First off, that's the point where Kenobi actually hesitates to strike and kill and unarmed Anakin.

I know. And then Anakin rushes him.



Okay. I haven't read it in a while. He still manages to close the gap between them tremendously quickly.



Never said it did. Or indicated such.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I know. And then Anakin rushes him.

Okay. I haven't read it in a while. He still manages to close the gap between them tremendously quickly.They're standing a couple of meters away...

Oh. I'm getting my people mixed up, apparently.

Or just imagining things.

Originally posted by Faunus
Oh. I'm getting my people mixed up, apparently.

Or just imagining things.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He stalemated him in a force push contest. Very different. He was able to use his superior mastery to win a contest of skill. (Force push has to be learned, its not instinctive) Anakin was using the Force instinctively to make himself faster throughout the duel, which is what I was referring to. He is more powerful in the Force, and it showed.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
I wasn't aware of that. mmm

I haven't read the novilization, though.

Me after that:

'In the novelization, the only indication about Anakin's massive Force power with respect to Obi-wan is that he's very clearly superior in strength...'

See?

Originally posted by Faunus
First off, that's the point where Kenobi actually hesitates to strike and kill and unarmed Anakin.

He has him at saberpoint. He is definitely in the dominant position- pausing isn't going to make much of a difference. Anakin rushes him, and manages to avoid the decapitation and put Kenobi's arms in danger of breaking.
Originally posted by Faunus

Second, Anakin doesn't "charge so fast can't react," he Force-pushes him into the wall.


Make your own conclusions. Mine is that Kenobi didn't have time to react.
Originally posted by Faunus

Third, Anakin's vastly superior raw power doesn't allow him to overpower Kenobi in a Force-push contest. That is not up for debate.

The Force-push contest is a measure of mastery over that technique (Force push) not a flat out comparison of Force strength. Anakin uses the Force much more effectively than Obi-Wan does to empower himself:


There can be no doubt that this is Force strength, and that Anakin is stronger than Obi-Wan.

Chosen One > Kenobi (raw force potential-e.g. powering self w/the Force)
Chosen One < Kenobi (Force mastery-e.g. using a Force technique like Force push)

Sabers: Marek 6/10
Force: Marek 100%
All-out Marek 98%

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He has him at saberpoint. He is definitely in the dominant position- pausing isn't going to make much of a difference. Anakin rushes him, and manages to avoid the decapitation and put Kenobi's arms in danger of breaking.



Make your own conclusions. Mine is that Kenobi didn't have time to react.


The Force-push contest is a measure of mastery over that technique (Force push) not a flat out comparison of Force strength. Anakin uses the Force much more effectively than Obi-Wan does to empower himself:


There can be no doubt that this is Force strength, and that Anakin is stronger than Obi-Wan.

Chosen One > Kenobi (raw force potential-e.g. powering self w/the Force)
Chosen One < Kenobi (Force mastery-e.g. using a Force technique like Force push)

there are many many more quotes from that fight implying that Obi-wan MEANT to be driven back and back. They are in a ROTS obi-wan vs. anakin rematch thread that should be pretty easy to find, i don't have time to find them and copy paste them here though.

The one I used, "anakin forces him back and back" etc. was right after the grapple section. Obi does not yet have a location in mind, although he quickly decides to bring the fight out over the lava. Directly after this, Anakin starts shooting "razor sharp" shards of metal at him with the force, and most of the description gives (to me at least) the impression that Anakin was far stronger, physically, than Obi Wan.

but it says he "gave ground in every exchange, it was his way." which you are of course correct, is a direct contradiction to your quote, which claim anakin was FORCING him back. (same sentence isn't it?) hold on... i'll look it up..... again....

'Gave ground' is at the beginning of the fight, him getting forced (pun) back is at about the midway point. Intending to retreat =/= equally strong. I'm only arguing- the only point I have made is that Anakin was physically stronger than Obi-Wan due to his superior Force strength.

okay: no, its clear, anakin "forcing him back and back" is obi-wan's choice.pg. 401. leading INTO YOUR QUOTE (you ignored the sentence before it apparently).... first though:
pg. 397: "In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash."
pg. 401: Anakin followed, constantly attakcing; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the blocksand shoreline of a lake of fire.
Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-wan let anakin drive him toward it. It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. (going into your quote now...)
Anakin forced him bakc and back, slamming his blad down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano.... etc.

you see now how your quote is completely explained in the paragraph before it? if anakin forced obi-wan anyplace, he did it because obi-wan was giving ground on purpose. gotta be careful not to take those things out of context.

Truejedi, stop being a spaz. He's just offering his opinion.

and now, having posted mine, i see your post, and i agree with you completely. Anakin was stronger than Obi-wan. No problem with that. However, it should be noted that obi-wan's entire style was centered around dealing with a stronger, faster opponent, so he didn't suffer in teh fight from it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Truejedi, stop being a spaz. He's just offering his opinion.

i'm just discussing it.... not even really offering an argument... who's spazzing? the one who replies to a quoted post, or one who steps in to play ref between two people who aren't even really arguing?

Originally posted by truejedi
i'm just discussing it.... not even really offering an argument... who's spazzing? the one who replies to a quoted post, or one who steps in to play ref between two people who aren't even really arguing?

I was kidding. Red used the spaz line on me the other night, so I thought I'd throw it out here in the midst of your 'disagreement' as a means to mock him.

LOL QED

TJ- I must have sudden onset Dyslexia, that works across a page turn. I was sure that that came later, and I'm looking at the book right now. My bad. The implication of the 'volcano' portion remains that Anakin is stronger than Kenobi.


Are you really going to argue that Anakin wasn't as strong as Obi-Wan?

Use some of that vast resource of brainpower to master the quote function, sport.

You bold it and put "originally posted by Dark Jaxx" in italics.

That better?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That better?

Much.