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its my opinion that bane and kun were the two most powerful sith. if they fought who would win and how would the fight play out.

The fight should end when Exar Kun sees Bane, extends his hand, and loosens an amulet blast capable of vaporizing him. But seeing as how he didn't do that to Ulic, he probably wouldn't do so here.

He'd engage Bane in a saber duel - and while I believe Kun is the better duelist - Bane's orbalisks would give him the advantage and the win.

Sabers I'd give ROT Bane the win with difficulty seeing as how Kun's form is unique but thanks to the orbalisks Bane's is aswell, In a force fight Kun could win with his amulets or his lightning if he actually hits him with it, Bane is can kill Kun just as quickly with his lightning so that can truly go either way though I'd still personally give Bane a slight edge. All out Bane wins with difficulty.

Originally posted by hammerofthor
its my opinion that bane and kun were the two most powerful sith. if they fought who would win and how would the fight play out. Your opinion<canon.

Sabers: Kun. I don't know too much about the Orbalisks, but whether or not Bane is made invulnerable to lightsabers because of them, I still say Kun is a better duelist.

Bane wins the rest though, assuming his Orbalisks can withstand Kun's amulets.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The fight should end when Exar Kun sees Bane, extends his hand, and loosens an amulet blast capable of vaporizing him. But seeing as how he didn't do that to Ulic, he probably wouldn't do so here.

He'd engage Bane in a saber duel - and while I believe Kun is the better duelist - Bane's orbalisks would give him the advantage and the win.

Urm. I don't see how Bane's orbalisks would give him an advantage over the guy who, according to KotoR, wore a Light Battle Suit made out of cortosis-weave, that would short-circuit every lightsaber on contact.

I personally don't see Bane doing too good, attempting to fight Exar with his bare hands.

Didn't that suit also have a max dex. bonus of +4, restrict force powers and, like, make you immune to poison? Gameplay Mechanics. Unless the item descriptions are cannon too, in which case we can expect a 'Mantle of the Force" novel coming up soon.

I fail to see how the amulet blasts will necessarily even register to Bane, given how he could tank planetary level energies back in his PoD days. Yeah, Bane wins this one easily; he's demonstrated far greater power (absorbing, storing, and channeling planetary energies, and at a time far from his current peak in power) and mastery to boot (subatomic alterations with the Force).

Originally posted by Taven
I fail to see how the amulet blasts will necessarily even register to Bane, given how he could tank planetary level energies back in his PoD days. Yeah, Bane wins this one easily; he's demonstrated far greater power (absorbing, storing, and channeling planetary energies, and at a time far from his current peak in power) and mastery to boot (subatomic alterations with the Force).

I thought that channeling the lightning was part of a ritual, in which the other participants had no wish to harm Bane. As part of a ritual, it isn't a very strong combat feat.

The creation of holocrons has been successfully done in the past, and in the future. Bane is NOT unique in this showing. Heck, even Darth Nihlius (sp?) made a holocron, and he's the exact opposite of subtlety.

The amulet blasts are presumably powered through dark side energy, much like sith Lightning. Since the Orbalisks' weakness is said energy, rather than electricity specifically, I would be willing to bet that the outcome would be similar. Bane smoking on the ground, in a coma.

Kun vs Bane would be a long and great fight.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Urm. I don't see how Bane's orbalisks would give him an advantage over the guy who, according to KotoR, wore a Light Battle Suit made out of cortosis-weave, that would short-circuit every lightsaber on contact.

I personally don't see Bane doing too good, attempting to fight Exar with his bare hands.

Ah, I didn't know that about Kun. Is that from the KOTOR Campaign Guide? (Been trying to find that.)

Originally posted by Jbill311
The amulet blasts are presumably powered through dark side energy, much like sith Lightning. Since the Orbalisks' weakness is said energy, rather than electricity specifically, I would be willing to bet that the outcome would be similar. Bane smoking on the ground, in a coma.

No...the orbalisks' weakness is electricity. The orbalisks feed upon Dark Side energy. The reason why Bane's lightning fried some of them was because they fed so much, it overloaded what they could handle. Judging from how powerful Kun's blasts are, they would probably overload the orbalisks too. But that's not really proven. And sort of moot - because Bane's head would be gone (vaporized).

Originally posted by Borbarad
Urm. I don't see how Bane's orbalisks would give him an advantage over the guy who, according to KotoR, wore a Light Battle Suit made out of cortosis-weave, that would short-circuit every lightsaber on contact.

I personally don't see Bane doing too good, attempting to fight Exar with his bare hands.

Game mechanics there. The first cortosis suit was constructed after Kun died according to Evil Never Dies...also, cortosis weave armor is just gonna prevent a saber from cutting through, not deactivate it. Cortosis ore does that. Weave will just mean that it can't cut through and strong, repeated strikes will break through.

As a duelist, Bane arguably exceeds Kun in skill. He's bigger, likely faster and stronger and more powerful

That's interesting: i never thought of that. I argued KOTOR could teach us nothing about characters, b/c everything happens in/game. But.... If KOTOR tells us that a character wore or used something found in the game.... Does that mean they actually did? and if they did, is it at least partially good. Sure, a +4 of anythign would have to go to the wayside, but what about complete immunity from something? that sounds a little more factual.

I think it depends if any other canonnical piece depicting that character is wearing that article of clothing. So, is Kun ever depicted wearing said armour from the game, or is he seen regularly wearing something different? I feel their typical garb is what should be factored in to fights.

Bane takes this slightly. I'd give him the edge in Sabers and there isn't enough of an edge in force powers (people always talk about Kun's amulet but I believe a force sensitive who has mastered the force to the level of a master should be able to defend against the attack).

Originally posted by Jbill311
I thought that channeling the lightning was part of a ritual, in which the other participants had no wish to harm Bane. As part of a ritual, it isn't a very strong combat feat.

They had no wish to harm Bane, yes, but the fact remains that they needed to transfer all of their power into Bane as quickly as they could, in the form of Sith lightning, which regardless of the intent, is lethal by nature, and would require that the person receiving it be capable of protecting themselves from it. Which Bane did with no real visible signs of effort, with less than a quarter of the experience he - as of Ro2 - possesses, before gaining the Force power enhancing orbalisk armour, before learning directly from the entirety of Sadow's knowledge, and before gaining a far deeper understanding of the darkside.



Don't believe everything you read, Jim. Holocron making isn't even implied to require the creator be capable of subatomic control. All that's said is that Bane manipulated the crystalline strands on the subatomic scale to ensure that they fitted into place; to argue that the extra precautions that Bane was in a position to take would have been utilised by anybody to ever make a holocron would be a fallacy of association. So no, as it stands, Bane is the only Force User in the mythos who can be said to possess such a fine level of control. Nobody has demonstrated anything even close, and it speaks volumes for his mastery of the Force, and how efficiently he can generate his own power on a small scale (an example being on an Exar Kun sized body).



Was anybody even arguing that the orbalisks would be capable of stopping them? Who says that Bane would even allow the amulet blasts to hit the orbalisks in the first place? Again, that Bane could use the Force to manipulate planetary energies ten years before his current peak in power would lead to the logical conclusion that he'd be capable of blocking or redirecting the amulet blasts with laughable ease. These amulets may be the be all end all when characters like Count Dooku or Darth Maul are involved, but they quite simply aren't in the same universe as planetary level tankers. They're a non factor in this fight.

Not to mention, you're completely wrong about the orbalisks; it's not the dark side energy specifically that they possess an inherent weakness against, but the electricity itself, as best shown when the electricity within the Umbaaran Assassin's stun pikes had the exact same effect on them as regular Force lightning did.

And Borbarad's completely correct by the way, what the armour's made out of is cortosis ore, and as such will short circuit a lightsaber on impact.

Bane wins. Probably a comfortable 7 or 8 out of 10, but I can see Kun throwing an amulet blast and saving his ass 'gainst Bane, which is why I doubt Bane will get a 10/10.

Sorry but Bane has no defense against the amulet blasts. At the same time, Bane seems to be the better saber duelist and IS familiar with Kun's form, seeing as how Zannah's lightsaber was exactly like Kun's. In the force department they are pretty much equal. If this is POD2 Bane, then his force knowledge most likely exceeds that of Kun's, considering he learned from Revan and then from Nadd.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Bane seems to be the better saber duelist and IS familiar with Kun's form, seeing as how Zannah's lightsaber was exactly like Kun's. In the force department they are pretty much equal.

I don't think it was actually all that similar. Kun's saber uses the single blade hilt but from what I gather (and from the cover of Rot) Zannah's saber is the normal double bladed hilt however the blades themselves are about a half a meter smaller(due to her size I believe) then normal double blades(and Kun's) and as far as I know Zannah can't alter the blade lengths like Kun can.

Problem for Exar is the taller Bane has an advantage with height preventing Exar from striking easily at the one vulnerable spot...whereas Exar's unfamiliar style won't take long for Bane to adapt to as familiar with the DBL as he is and he's got an equal advantage with his curved hilt, which to my my knowledge, the style Exar has never encountered.

Throw in the orbalisks and Exar is gonna have serious trouble landing a hit before his head rolls

Also, remember Bane is very familiar with the double-bladed saber. He knows a great deal of its techniques due to countless trainings against Kas'im, and when they fought, Bane was completely destroying him (that is, until he changed to dual blades).

Originally posted by Taven
They had no wish to harm Bane, yes, but the fact remains that they needed to transfer all of their power into Bane as quickly as they could, in the form of Sith lightning, which regardless of the intent, is lethal by nature, and would require that the person receiving it be capable of protecting themselves from it. Which Bane did with no real visible signs of effort, with less than a quarter of the experience he - as of Ro2 - possesses, before gaining the Force power enhancing orbalisk armour, before learning directly from the entirety of Sadow's knowledge, and before gaining a far deeper understanding of the darkside.

The point remains: he preformed this feat in the setting of a Sith Ritual and we have no other evidence that says he could do this at a whim in the middle of combat. Later, after his 'far deeper understanding of the darkside' he is fried with his own Force Lightning. If you want to say that Bane's Lightning > The combined efforts of the Brotherhood's elite, go ahead. Please excuse me for laughing at your obviously crippling bias.

Originally posted by Taven

Don't believe everything you read, Jim. Holocron making isn't even implied to require the creator be capable of subatomic control. All that's said is that Bane manipulated the crystalline strands on the subatomic scale to ensure that they fitted into place; to argue that the extra precautions that Bane was in a position to take would have been utilised by anybody to ever make a holocron would be a fallacy of association. So no, as it stands, Bane is the only Force User in the mythos who can be said to possess such a fine level of control. Nobody has demonstrated anything even close, and it speaks volumes for his mastery of the Force, and how efficiently he can generate his own power on a small scale (an example being on an Exar Kun sized body).
Bane was UNABLE to create a holocron until after he used the 'subatomic alterations' so it was obviously necessary. We have several options:
1. Everyone used a different method than Bane, which did NOT require subatomic alterations
2. Everyone else used the same method but were so much more competent that they didn't need to make the adjustments (making Bane inept)
3. Everyone used the same method, and made the same adjustments.
1. There has been no proof of a different method, and considering Bane learned how to make his holocron from ancient texts, rather than inventing a method on his own, I think we can discard this possibility.
2. It is possible that no one else needed to make the adjustments, but why would Bane run into problems that they did not unless he was bad at the process. There are two possibilities- that he didn't follow directions (making him dumb/irrational) or that he was bad at it (making him inept, and forcing him to adopt a more difficult process). Neither is complementary to Bane, so lets move on.
3. Nothing suggests that Bane didn't follow the instructions so we have to believe that he did. If through these instructions he faced a problem, then his precursors would have as well. Therefore, Revan and everyone who made a holocron before Bane would have had to make the 'sub-atomic alterations' we are told about in PoD.

Originally posted by Taven

Was anybody even arguing that the orbalisks would be capable of stopping them? Who says that Bane would even allow the amulet blasts to hit the orbalisks in the first place? Again, that Bane could use the Force to manipulate planetary energies ten years before his current peak in power would lead to the logical conclusion that he'd be capable of blocking or redirecting the amulet blasts with laughable ease. These amulets may be the be all end all when characters like Count Dooku or Darth Maul are involved, but they quite simply aren't in the same universe as planetary level tankers. They're a non factor in this fight.
He is not shown to be able to tank planetary energies outside of ritual, unless you want to say that his own lightning reflected back at him was greater than a planetary scale. That seems excessive. Also, the amulets use a different style of attack than Force Lightning. I don't know if we've ever seen someone able to block or deflect a Blast the way we've seen Yoda, Mace or Obi-Wan block Lightning. Evasion seems to be the only form of defense. If you have examples of someone surviving a direct hit, PLEASE share it- I am admittedly ignorant of the Comics.

Originally posted by Taven

Not to mention, you're completely wrong about the orbalisks; it's not the dark side energy specifically that they possess an inherent weakness against, but the electricity itself, as best shown when the electricity within the Umbaaran Assassin's stun pikes had the exact same effect on them as regular Force lightning did.

I thought that because they 'fed on the dark side of the Force' they were especially weak to attacks from that source. If it was said to be simple electricity that is their weakness I will concede the point. However, it will still be your responsibility to show that the Orbalisks can protect him from such a devastating Force attack.

Originally posted by Jbill311
He is not shown to be able to tank planetary energies outside of ritual, unless you want to say that his own lightning reflected back at him was greater than a planetary scale. That seems excessive.

Well, to be fair - Bane wasn't expecting his Lightning to be bounced back at him.





On another note, I think Kun's saber skills are being sorely underrated here. Just prior to becoming Dark Lord of the Sith, he says to Ulic Qel-Droma that he is the greatest swordsman in the galaxy.

Given his combat record and his ability to invent his own unique saber (as well as, presumably, saber style), there's no reason to doubt it.

That means precisely nothing against Bane. And that boast proved rather overrated if it was true as he and Ulic were equals

the majority say bane. so i guess the answer is not kun. ok how bout this. both are dressed in simple robes. no amulet. just one on one. nuthin but force and sabers.

Bane even harder.

hell yeah dude bane would kick his ass. it would be one hell of a fight though lol.

Bane would still win without his orbalisks.

I think that in a pure duel, without Bane's orbalisks, Kun would win. I'd say he has superior blade skills compared to Bane. One of the best in the mythos.

He absolutely schools one of the greatest Jedi Masters the Order has ever had as a padawan with incomplete lightsaber skills and a totally unfamiliar form to himself (Jar'Kai). Taking in the age and experience gap, along with the amount of training to put it in perspective: It'd be like Ki-Adi-Mundi defeating Yoda in a saber duel just after Mundi becomes a Jedi Knight.

Not to mention that he stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma (the Anakin Skywalker of the ancient Jedi Order) in a saber contest before being interrupted by Marka Ragnos. The same Qel-Droma who was able to hold his own against an enraged Jedi Knight trying to kill him, while cut off from the Force and out of practice with a saber for, what, 10 years?

And if you look at the Exar/Ulic duel, Exar doesn't seem to be putting much effort into it. And he doesn't use his twin blades - opting instead for the single blade. He also calls himself the greatest swordsman in the galaxy - a claim not refuted by Ulic. And something that Bane might only have laid claim to after Kas'im and Raskta's deaths.

Oh, after his spirit occupies Kyp Durron's body, isn't he back to being nearly unbeatable with a blade? I haven't read the book in a while.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I think that in a pure duel, without Bane's orbalisks, Kun would win. I'd say he has superior blade skills compared to Bane. One of the best in the mythos.

He absolutely schools one of the greatest Jedi Masters the Order has ever had as a padawan with incomplete lightsaber skills and a totally unfamiliar form to himself (Jar'Kai). Taking in the age and experience gap, along with the amount of training to put it in perspective: It'd be like Ki-Adi-Mundi defeating Yoda in a saber duel just after Mundi becomes a Jedi Knight.
he surprised Vodo with two sabers and caught him totally off guard.

That aside, show me one single quote naming Vodo as anything resembling more than a 'competent' fighter. He's 'experienced.' His claims to fame? Being stupid enough to fight a Sith Lord with a taped up stick and doing worse than the tree man who a admits combat isn't his skill.

Also, mindlessly slamming two sabers on your opponent isn't 'Jar'kai.'

Vodo sucked. A complete idiot who is there to do nothing but get his ass kicked.

Considering earlier, we see him practicing with it and training Vim? And if by 'holding off' you mean 'running away from the mindless berserker, pausing briefly to parry her attacks when she catches up a few times" then yes.
And how does this put Kun above Bane in saber skills? Speed, strength?Available evidence has Bane taking those. Big time.

....what?
1. When the heck does he name himself 'greatest swordsman' and why would Ulic bother to refute it with words when Kun is unable to overcome him?
2. Exar isn't stupid enough to hold back. It outright says Exar is unable to claim an advantage in the narration.
3. Exar is not a Jar'Kai master. His skill lies with his single blade and maybe with the double. by this point we have no reason to believe he has modified his saber, either.
4. Exar is there to KILL Ulic. If he's not fighting seriously, more fool him. He's overconfident and that means Bane will butcher him.


He never inhabits Kyp or Gantoris's body. He just trains Gantoris who goes berserk against Luke and loses.

LS, you're going to stop trying to bait me, or I'll have a moderator make you stop. Are we clear?

I'm tired of dealing with this blatant disrespect from you.

I'm going after your argument, not you. If I bash the characters, that's not baiting you and I seriously doubt Rex will have an issue

Originally posted by Enyalus
LS, you're going to stop trying to bait me, or I'll have a moderator make you stop. Are we clear?

I'm tired of dealing with this blatant disrespect from you.

Pot, kettle, black.

Originally posted by Enyalus
LS, you're going to stop trying to bait me, or I'll have a moderator make you stop. Are we clear?

I'm tired of dealing with this blatant disrespect from you. That post was directed at the characters, not you. Though even I thought the words sounded rather agressive.

Originally posted by Gideon
Pot, kettle, black.
I lol'd

Seriously though, Lightsnake, tone it down a little. Its just for imagining- you know? Take it easy.

Enyalus and I have a very unstable relationship. I respect the fact that he's smart, but he needs to understand that he's essentially a guest in our house. He used to whine and complain about me being an arrogant jerk, but at the drop of a dime summons his so-called "prick programming" and hurls pejoratives and baits ad infinitum. If we're not supposed to act like that, then he definitely isn't. He isn't the axis around which this forum revolves. That would be me.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
he surprised Vodo with two sabers and caught him totally off guard.

That aside, show me one single quote naming Vodo as anything resembling more than a 'competent' fighter. He's 'experienced.' His claims to fame? Being stupid enough to fight a Sith Lord with a taped up stick and doing worse than the tree man who a admits combat isn't his skill.

Off the top of my head:

"Master Vodo wielded a common quarterstaff in combat as effectively as most Jedi used a lightsaber." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook)

"My master has been respected for centuries among our fraternity." (Dark Lords of the Sith)

There are more quotes throughout Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War. He's also a Jedi Guardian, Watchman, Master, and Weapons Master. And I don't know whether this part counts or not, but it lists his feats as ambidexterity, combat expertise, combat reflexes, and weapon proficiencies in lightsabers and quarterstaves.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Also, mindlessly slamming two sabers on your opponent isn't 'Jar'kai.'

Last time I checked, using two blades was a kind of Jar'Kai. Which Exar presumably was not trained in. The fact that he bested Vodo like that is impressive, especially considering that 1) Vodo obviously sparred with all of his padawans in such a manner and no one else was able to break his quarterstaff, and 2) Vodo was responsible for Kun's lightsaber skills, and so should have been intimately familiar with them (see Obi-Wan vs. Anakin's duel for reasons why this would influence the outcome of a battle).

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vodo sucked. A complete idiot who is there to do nothing but get his ass kicked.

Yes. Considering he was a weapons master, capable of wielding a quarterstaff well enough to rival most Jedi with their lightsabers, respected throughout the Jedi Order, was a 'wise Jedi Master and historian' who was one of the original keepers of the Tedryn Holocron, was capable of the Sever Force and the Wall of Light Force technique, and able to duel a fully trained and immersed in the Dark Side, Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun with a simple quarterstaff.

Some of his students included legends like Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, and Kreia (Krynda Draay). I suppose that they trained under Vodo had absolutely no affect on how powerful they became.

Your bias is outstanding.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering earlier, we see him practicing with it and training Vim? And if by 'holding off' you mean 'running away from the mindless berserker, pausing briefly to parry her attacks when she catches up a few times" then yes.
And how does this put Kun above Bane in saber skills? Speed, strength?Available evidence has Bane taking those. Big time.

Faunus would explain why the feat was impressive better than I could. If he comes in here, I'll let him answer this.

As far as speed, we can't tell how quickly Kun moved because it's a comic. Vodo's speed, however non-canon (RPG stats) included 'rapid strike,' 'combat reflexes,' and 'burst of speed.' I guess they're attempting to tell us that Vodo was fast - yet at the Senate meeting Exar Kun was able to blitz him so quickly that Vodo was forced into a purely defensive action against his former student.

And as far as strength goes, he's able to snap Vodo's quarterstaff in half as a padawan who's lightsaber skills are incomplete. He's able to, with one hand, lift the Chancellor (?) of the Republic who happens to be a very large alien off the ground and then proceed to tear his head off (again, with only one hand). If that wasn't enough, in the Kun/Vodo rematch - Kun attempts to convert Vodo to join his Sith brotherhood. When Kun finally sees it is futile one strike is all that it takes to reshatter Vodo's quarterstaff again. And, I'll remind you and everyone else - his staff was able to withstand multiple blows and had obviously never been shattered before. If that's still not enough, he uses a double-bladed lightsaber with only a single saber grip. Why do all other double-bladed lightsaber need the longer, two handed grip? Leverage (read that as strength). That Kun needs merely one hand to generate the power typically afforded to two hands speaks absolute volumes to his sheer physical power. He should be up there with Bane and Anakin in that department.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
....what?
1. When the heck does he name himself 'greatest swordsman' and why would Ulic bother to refute it with words when Kun is unable to overcome him?
2. Exar isn't stupid enough to hold back. It outright says Exar is unable to claim an advantage in the narration.
3. Exar is not a Jar'Kai master. His skill lies with his single blade and maybe with the double. by this point we have no reason to believe he has modified his saber, either.
4. Exar is there to KILL Ulic. If he's not fighting seriously, more fool him. He's overconfident and that means Bane will butcher him.

1. In the Dark Lords of the Sith audiobook. He's also referred to throughout The Sith War, Dark Lords of the Sith and in the Dark Side Sourcebook as a 'Master Swordsman.'
2. At that point, sure. But of course, their duel is interrupted. Let's not forget that Marka Ragnos named Kun as the DLOTS, with Ulic being his apprentice. Not vice versa. There was a reason for that.
3. I never said he was a Jar'Kai master. That he's able to best his teacher, who is a Jedi Weapons Master and Guardian, while relatively untrained, is completely phenomenal and unheard of.
4. There to kill him? Hardly. First he politely announces himself while Aleema and Ulic are about to get intimate instead of simply sneaking up and killing them. Then he intentionally knocks Aleema unconscious after she fires a blast at him (as opposed to outright killing her). Then he attempts to humble Ulic and is interrupted.

Originally posted by Tangible God
That post was directed at the characters, not you. Though even I thought the words sounded rather agressive.

Oh, I clearly know that the criticism was upon the characters. But saying something like 'Vodo sucked. A complete idiot who is there to do nothing but get his ass kicked.' is baiting, regardless. If I went into the Superman subform and yelled, "supes sux teh big 1 lulz" or went into the Project Holocron thread ranting about how Corran Horn would kick Darth Sidious' ass and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fanboy - it'd be baiting.

It's only baiting if you have an unreasonable amount of affection for a fictional character. You should be able to rise above the bait. Or are you a guppy, now?

(that was an example of baiting)

Originally posted by Gideon
It's only baiting if you have an unreasonable amount of affection for a fictional character. You should be able to rise above the bait. Or are you a guppy, now?

He's done this two-three times now in the past two days, for no apparent reason or provocation.





Regarding your reply in the Vader vs. Ti thread, I was actually surprised by how polite you were to me. I'll return the favor later tonight or tomorrow. I've got a test to study for sometime tonight.

Lightsnake did not deliberately insult you, Enyalus. If he bashes Exar Kun, you shouldn't be so bent out of shape by it. I don't ride you for your dislike of Sidious, I respect that it's your opinion, point out that I simply don't know how you can't, and get on with my life. Advent doesn't climb out of the woodwork and jump me for calling Anakin a complete moron, because that's what he is.

As far as your rebuttal regarding Shaak Ti versus Vader, make it a good one. Seriously, a lot of the logic you use is completely, totally, and unambiguously inept.

Oh well. I forgive him, and you, for not being able to comprehend my god-like greatness.

Agreed.

I mean, how can you comprehend what isn't there?

My good sir, nonexistence is a myth.

Ahem.

lol ur mom

LULZ U R SO FUNI!!!!1




Seriously, I'm foaming at the mouth for when PH gets to Kun assessment.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Off the top of my head:

"Master Vodo wielded a common quarterstaff in combat as effectively as most Jedi used a lightsaber." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook)

"My master has been respected for centuries among our fraternity." (Dark Lords of the Sith)
I'm not denying he wielded it as effectively, but that doesn't translate to 'above average skill.'

And 'our fraternity?' The Sith were extinct before Vodo was even born. the only Dark Jedi conflict he'd ever have seen would've been


...Weapons Master? The title wasn't even invented yet in the EU. I find nothing listing Vodo as Weapons Master...seems to have as much evidence as him being Grand Master.
And consider Odan freaking Ur, the bar for 'master' is set really low.
And yes, we know Vodo can fight. Problem is, his abilities are just 'get beat by Kun twice.'



In specific terms? Yes. However, Anakin wasn't trained in Jar'Kai and he pulled off some moves on Dooku for a short time. Exar caught Vodo completely off guard and hammered at him with no apparent skill. This isn't equating to great abilities on Kas'im or Raskta levels

When did Vodo 'obviously' spar with Padawans? He challenges Exar because Exar's being an arrogant racist.

Exar goes berserk on Vodo and assaults him with two saber in the same place. He should not expect his student to flip out, brush the Dark Side and assault him with two sabers and attacks that consist of 'swing with mindless rage.' That's not SKILL in beating an opponent

He was not able to 'duel' with Kun, first off. He was able to be toyed with and killed by Kun. Kun was in NO danger there and Vodo was idiot enough to face him with no means of subduing or killing him without help.

Going further, Vodo is NOT Weapons Master and not a single source I can see refers to him as one. Because Nomi studies under him doesn't make him a Weapons Master and this is as tiresome a theory as the one that he was Grand Master because younger Jedi respect him.
And being a wise historian doesn't translate to power. Jocasta Nu was a wise historian. Moreover, the Wall of Light is sever force and we only ever saw Vodo use it in conjunction with numerous other Jedi adding their power to his and even then it was only temporary.
And again, that he could fight as well as most Jedi with his saber means little if any Sith or Jedi above 'competent' can fight above most Jedi or Sith with their abilities.

Vodo isn't talentless, but he's nothing to the big boys and he's a complete idiot to boot. Pop Quiz, Master Vodo! When your student has attacked you in berserker rage, nearly yielding to the Dark Side, do you:
A. Console him and attempt to solve the problem
B. Penalize him
C. Let him run off to one of the darkest reaches of the galaxy.

Question 2: When the same student has returned and cannot be stopped by anyone alone, do you:
A. Surrender to him to figure out a way to beat him later
B. Join your powers with the other Jedi and attempt to subdue him like you did his near equal a very short time ago
C. Fight him with a taped up stick.

If you guessed anything other than C, congrats, you're not Vodo!

1. We don't know Krynda is Kreia yet. Otherwise you'd see a lot of "Sion has a ton of Sith artifacts" in vs. forums
2. Nomi was Thon's student. She studied under Vodo very briefly.
3. Exar became powerful in no way due to Vodo's teachings. He rejected them and ran off. He was a formidable Padawan who became a Dark Lord later. Vodo was not responsible for that. Directly.

So are Vodo's inadequacies.



Alright

I'm sorry. Canon evidence please. If there is none, don't use it.
Is there any canon evidence Vodo is fast? At all? Comparable to anyone of note?

Because he's using two sabers.

The Chancellor is a boneless cephalapoid. They aren't heavy.
And Jerec lifted up Mammon Hoole when he had Tractor Beams in his boots.
And 'tear his head off?' He sank his fingers into the guy's head.
And stop making it seem as if pounding two sabers on an object like an animal is in any way, shape or form a qualification to skill


Presumably because Vodo was too stupid to get another staff and just taped the broken one up. Never mind also that Kun had been repeatedly striking the thing throughout their fight.


And Vodo had seen combat...when? One canon instance?


He swings it THREE TIMES! THREE TIMES in the ENTIRE comic and in two of them, you can't even see how many hands he uses, in the last, he's swinging with two. We've seen Zannah on the cover of Rule of two and Maul hold their sabers with a single hand, it means Nothing



No, it doesn't. Again, he swings it thrice. In one instance, he's clearly holding it with two hands-against Ood- in the other, you can't see his hands.

No, he seems well below Jerec there.

Shaak Ti is a master swordsbeing and a 'master of multiple high end forms'...by the standards you were showing in the Vader topic, that should put her on par with Kun, who's just a master swordsman.
And again...why would Ulic bother to refute a boast like that? Kun hasn't fought anybody else in the Order save Vodo and his fellow trainees...Ulic proves it wrong.

they were even to that point. Period. The battle could even have gone on for hours.

Because of Kun, the Sith would never die. Marka explained the reasoning
And Marka said what it was

Ok, where is Vodo referred to as any of this? In narration? He's only ever just 'Jedi Master.'
And yeah, being a totally shocked guy who isn't resisting you at all is something.
Again: Vodo's inadequacy at work

He's not there to have tea with them. The narration says he's there to eliminate his rivals. Yes he's there to kill them. He even calls them his enemies

No, he attempts to kill Ulic and fails when Ulic matches him. He just takes Alema out first as she's of no consequence




And? Vodo does suck. He is an idiot. And you want to blame someone? Throw it at KJA. I'll call terrible characters when I see them..

Issue is...I'm not doing that. If I work into criticisms of Vodo to this, I'll feel very free to do so.

I don't get it. You hate Bane; fine. You hate TotJ characters; fine. You've bitched about it for months, and it's getting tiresome. Every time you make or even respond to a post about them, it turns into a ridiculous rant about how stupid they are, or how much they suck, or how much better every other character is in comparison. Now, these guys are far from my favorite characters, but the needless tirades are stupid, immature, and annoying as hell. Stick to the facts, and keep the bias to yourself, because it's gotten intolerable.

Fine, fine.

He was talking about the Jedi Order.



Power of the Jedi Sourcebook. I don't make shit up. And I never, ever said that Vodo was Grand Master, so I don't even know where you got that from.



I didn't realize that getting beaten by an extremely powerful Dark Lord of the Sith meant that you were an idiot and you sucked. I suppose Yoda sucked because he lost to Darth Sidious. Or Luke Skywalker sucked because he had his body ripped from his spirit by the 4,000 year old weakened ghost of Exar Kun, huh?



Anakin was familiar with Ataru, of which Jar'Kai is a variation. That he was able to defeat Vodo, his master and lightsaber instructor without any 'apparent skill' simply makes Kun's feat even greater, if we take your interpretation of events.



I never said that particular feat qualified as such, did I?



I'm sorry, who teaches Vodo's padawans their lightsaber skills if not for their own master?



If it wasn't skill, then Vodo should've handed Kun his ass as quickly as he did the first time, shouldn't he?



Excellent. You concede that Kun was a lightsaber prodigy, then?



Yes, he is a weapon's master. It isn't a theory. It is explicitly stated. I don't know where you get the Grand Master part at, because I've never suggested it.



Wrong. Wall of Light, and Sever Force, are two entirely separate abilities. If you don't believe me, and you want a quick source, look at Wookieepedia. I'm not going to provide one for you.



If you've actually read any of the TOTJ stuff, you'd know that that was the old Jedi Order's policy. To let them be free and basically do what they want. It's why so many of the ancient Jedi were married and having children with each other. Rules were different. That was their policy. He wasn't an idiot for following the procedures. And he attempts to help Kun when Kun is injured on Korriban (after Kun asks for his help). It's not like he doesn't care.



Because what Yoda does concerning Dooku on Vjun is any better....



Yeah, we do. That it hasn't been confirmed or isn't "officially" canon yet is irrelevant. Make the connection. It's easy.



I'm sorry, is there ever that kind of evidence for a comic book? All we have in regards to DE Sidious moving fast is your word that the audiobook says so - because it damn sure doesn't mention it in the actual comic or sourcebook.



Because that matters? If you hit his staff twice with one saber, it's the same as using two. That he was using two sabers is absolutely irrelevant to the fact that he was able to break it.



I've looked at it again, and you may be right.



Make me.



Right...and it doesn't break then, now does it? Only when he actually decides to kill Vodo. One strike. That's it.



And he wouldn't have practiced with his four padawans, why?



We see ten shots of it. In seven of those, he's holding it one handed. In one you can't tell how many hands he uses, whereas against Odd yes, two handed. He's shown striking with it one handed once in those panels.



Ulic is also called a 'master swordsman', a 'great Jedi warrior and Master,' and 'very strong in the Ways of the Force.' They stalemate until Ragnos interrupts. It'd be like looking at the Obi-Wan/Vader fight before the, "Don't try it, Anakin" part.



And...why did he say that? Because Exar Kun was more powerful? Unless you want to make a case for Marka Ragnos, one of the most powerful Sith of all time, choosing the weaker being as DLOTS.



And right after Ragnos, everything is cool and fine between them and they're shown clasping hands. Okay.

Originally posted by Enyalus


He was talking about the Jedi Order.
Ah, alright.



I know you don't. Might I have the quote though? I'm only seeing Vodo as the Watchman of Dantooine.

And a few people once got it into their heads Vodo was the Grandmaster of the order...I merely meant it as comparison.



Challenging said Dark Lord with a taped up stick without even bothering to get the help of the people around you when you can use a move to potentially disable him on the spot is extreme stupidity. Yoda went to kill Palpatine and prepared accordingly...Kun caught Luke where he wanted him in a two pronged attack.



Again: How is the feat great if Vodo is too surprise to do anything? Are you seriously going to argue Kun was this incredible as a Padawan? Kun throws himself on Vodo, battering his staff in half. Vodo is too surprised to react before his staff is severed...what's the amazing feat here?
Bane had undoubtedly seen Ataru as well...Jar'Kai is firmly different, the 'variation' makes the difference.


My apologies



You'll also note there is a nice gap in ability between Exar, Sylvar and Crao, though. Exar had a natural proficiency, not as a result of Vodo's favoritism.



If his student had leapt upon him in a berserker rage, mindlessly striking at him. you underestimate the value of surprise. Again, this is Exar as a Padawan, he is nothing compared to what he'll be later.



I never denied he was. The narration clearly labels him a saber master. However, to use the first Vodo battle as logic to him is a bit faulty and 'saber prodigy' can described a lot of people from as high as Kun, Bane, down to Sarro Xaj who might even be able to challenge Kun in a saber contest.



Explained above. And I'm looking at the bit and not seeing it...It just says he's Dantooine's watchman. I checked Wookieepedia to make sure and he's not listed at the Weapons Master there, either and they're usually very efficient.
I'm just asking for some clarification here.



In Jedi vs. Sith, they're the same ability. There's even Odan-Ur NARRATING the wall of light technique for Sever Force and the image of Nomi blocking off Ulic is labeled her using sever force on him.


Is there something written into the rules "No stopping until it's too late to try?' Exar was subject to the Jedi rules and Vodo let him, fascinated by the Dark Side, AFTER the combat incident, after Vodo knew there was great darkness in his heart, go traipsing off to Onderon where the spirit of Freedon Nadd is still loose and the Dark Side is still strong.


Rules were somewhat different yes, but as a Padawan, Exar was Vodo's responsibility. Typically, you show some responsibility for not making your student hunger for more forbidden knowledge and then letting him vanish. After he yields to anger and assaults you.
And then Arca does an even worse job. Heck, I LIKE Arca, but the whole scene after Exar outright lies to him reads like:
Exar: Look, I'm going to get help from Freedon Nadd!
Arca: You do that.



What 'procedure' said exactly, that Kun is totally independent of Vodo after that incident, exactly? There's nothing that allows 'pure, unbridled' independence. They even let Ulic go join the Krath even though he's one of the best students and I also really like Ulic, but there's something to be said for disallowing an idea that has never not resulted in the creation of a monster.



Credit where it's due, Yoda doesn't have a bunch of other Jedi standing about and Dooku forced the duel himself after throwing countess Malreaux out the window.


It really isn't, not yet. Wait till the official revelation and then spring us.
And don't forget, Krynda has two sisters.


It's a fair query. Speed can easily be described in narration and while I don't think Vodo is a slug, moving as fast as Yoda or Bane or Luke?



Vodo comments that it was "Two sabers against his poor stick" when he sees it broke. The implication seems obvious



He drops him a moment later. Head's on the body



hm..


Again...the stick is just taped up. Exar just severs it again after he'd spent time battering at it before.


Four? You mean three. Again, is there any evidence of Vodo getting into it with them? Because the only time he does so is when he think Exar needs humbling



When he holds it at rest or twirls it, that's irrelevant. He twirls it with one hand and slices at Ood with two. The only other times he's shown striking with it, his hands are obscured and can't be seen.
And Maul constantly holds his with one hand



My point exactly: Ulic is Exar's equal with a blade



Because he resurrected the Sith. He says this outright

I didn't say Exar was weaker. He does have more knowledge and the benefit of reviving the Sith. In combat however, thus far anyways, Ulic is his equal.



When an Ancient Dark Lord shows up, names you Supreme Badass One and Two and essentially says "Go kick some ass together!" Are you going to go back to doing whatever it was before or are you going to team up?

Fact is, Exar was there to kill him. It's directly said he's there to eliminate his rivals

Originally posted by Jbill311


Bane was UNABLE to create a holocron until after he used the 'subatomic alterations' so it was obviously necessary. We have several options:
1. Everyone used a different method than Bane, which did NOT require subatomic alterations
2. Everyone else used the same method but were so much more competent that they didn't need to make the adjustments (making Bane inept)
3. Everyone used the same method, and made the same adjustments.
1. There has been no proof of a different method, and considering Bane learned how to make his holocron from ancient texts, rather than inventing a method on his own, I think we can discard this possibility.
2. It is possible that no one else needed to make the adjustments, but why would Bane run into problems that they did not unless he was bad at the process. There are two possibilities- that he didn't follow directions (making him dumb/irrational) or that he was bad at it (making him inept, and forcing him to adopt a more difficult process). Neither is complementary to Bane, so lets move on.
3. Nothing suggests that Bane didn't follow the instructions so we have to believe that he did. If through these instructions he faced a problem, then his precursors would have as well. Therefore, Revan and everyone who made a holocron before Bane would have had to make the 'sub-atomic alterations' we are told about in PoD.


well said, someone needed to give that reply to Taven MONTHS ago. Its obvious to everyone but him.

Originally posted by truejedi
well said, someone needed to give that reply to Taven MONTHS ago. Its obvious to everyone but him.

Thank you. It took me about 15 minutes to think through the options- I kept getting distracted with "didn't LS already deal with this?"

Edit: how long you think until he responds?

Don't hold your breath, mate...you know Taven

Two things in response to LS's post. Regarding the weapons master part, page 103:

"Vodo-Siosk Baas: Male Krevaaki Jedi Guardian 5/Jedi Weapon Master 6/Jedi Master 3;"

Just prior to where the non-canon stats begin. The above is just simply listing what he is.



As far as what Jedi vs. Sith says - I'll look at that myself. Because you and I both know that Wall of Light is not the same as Sever Force. Wall of Light is not even close to being permanant. It's what they do to Ulic to bring him into custody. Compare that to the Force Sever Nomi uses on him later. The sourcebook must have an error in it (wouldn't be the first time - I heard the NEC had lots of them).

The rest, no offense, I'm not going to reply to. In both scenarios in this thread I've said Bane would win, so we seem to agree there. I only used Vodo as an example because we have little evidence for Kun fighting many other strong people (Yes, I believe Vodo qualifies as that) and the Ulic/Kun fight was inconclusive. Thanks for being nice in that last post.

As far as the speed thing goes - Vodo's staff is shown as 3-4 staves at one point, while Kun's blade is leaves an afterimage of 6 (IIRC...I put the comic away for the night). Dunno if that would indicate speed to you, or movement.

Is it, like a common tactic to hid until everyone has forgotten how dumb you are? Knightfa11 is trying it too, and its really pissing me off. I was hoping for an actual debate (and I use the term lightly) but he just slinked off. Any chance I won't have to quote myself at him and Taven when they come back? That is, that they will attempt to address my points?

Originally posted by Jbill311
Thank you. It took me about 15 minutes to think through the options- I kept getting distracted with "didn't LS already deal with this?"

Edit: how long you think until he responds?

well, honestly, i'm surprised he hasn't already. He used to be right on it, but i've noticed Neb has been less hardcore about KMC lately, which doesn't leave it lacking at all....
He'll come back with something that looks like.

1. Right because, you can't assume that bane didn't alter the plans to make his own unique holocron which was obviously way better than the rest because he alone moved molecules around... Strawman strawman!

2. Wrong, because Bane moved his lightsaber so fast that it could barely be seen by the greatest master's ever, and he once owned Kas'im who is arguebly 2nd to only Bane ever in combat, and Luke is overrated and others are better too, so that's a strawman.

3. That's probably not true either, but i'm not sure why.... so straw man. and Occum's Razor too, to prove i'm right.

(there, feel free to refute my brilliance, and i'll be back as Taven2 to tell you more!)

Originally posted by truejedi
well, honestly, i'm surprised he hasn't already. He used to be right on it, but i've noticed Neb has been less hardcore about KMC lately, which doesn't leave it lacking at all....
He'll come back with something that looks like.

1. Right because, you can't assume that bane didn't alter the plans to make his own unique holocron which was obviously way better than the rest because he alone moved molecules around... Strawman strawman!

2. Wrong, because Bane moved his lightsaber so fast that it could barely be seen by the greatest master's ever, and he once owned Kas'im who is arguebly 2nd to only Bane ever in combat, and Luke is overrated and others are better too, so that's a strawman.

3. That's probably not true either, but i'm not sure why.... so straw man. and Occum's Razor too, to prove i'm right.

(there, feel free to refute my brilliance, and i'll be back as Taven2 to tell you more!)

I don't think I can OH NOES
Except:
1. burden of proof, and The narrative explicitly contradicts it. TAVEN YOU FAIL
2. Lightsaber speed isn't relavent. TAVEN YOU FAIL.
3. I actually have an essay (by my master) for the next person to try to actually use this on me. So... TAVEN YOU FAIL




You make me laugh.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Two things in response to LS's post. Regarding the weapons master part, page 103:

"Vodo-Siosk Baas: Male Krevaaki Jedi Guardian 5/Jedi Weapon Master 6/Jedi Master 3;"

Just prior to where the non-canon stats begin. The above is just simply listing what he is.
I'm pretty sure those are stats with the numbers next to them...I literally can't see anything About weapons masters in conjunction with Vodo anywhere else and he'd certainly be listed as one if he was since.

Check some other Jedi...I'm sure you'll see 'weapons masters' on more than one, too.



They hit him with a temporary one. Nomi later slams him with a permanent one.
But they use Odan's description for the WoL with sever force and depict Nomi's as 'sever force.'

Not 'lots,' just a few minor ones. And Nomi even says she uses the technique Odan taught her, binding him in a wall of light...

Np. Sorry if I come across as harsh in places

again...unless Ulic is literally leaving afterimages early on, it's likely just movement and that sort of thing is pretty comics in showing movement.

I am pleased. You're awesome, but sometimes you need to chill.

Sorry, Faunus. Kind of an annoying semester...I vent more than I should here

You should get a punching bag. Or a baseball bat.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm pretty sure those are stats with the numbers next to them...I literally can't see anything About weapons masters in conjunction with Vodo anywhere else and he'd certainly be listed as one if he was since.

Check some other Jedi...I'm sure you'll see 'weapons masters' on more than one, too.

Ooroo doesn't, Odan-Urr doesn't, Arca Jeth doesn't, Thon does, Vodo does, Ulic/Nomi/Cay/Tott/Oss/Dace/Shoaneb don't.

Seems like just Thon and Vodo...question is, why Thon? He can't even hold a saber. But anyway, no, I don't think those are stats. They simply describe what their race is and what their positions are in the Jedi Order.

For instance, it's got Arca listed as Male Arkanian, Jedi Guardian, Jedi Master, and Jedi Instructor. Odan-Urr listed as a Jedi Scholar, and so forth. I think those should count as canon, then, since they basically list information and not RPG statistics.

Thing is, nothing else seems to count them as canon...and Thon makes no sense...and heck 'Jedi Scholar?' That's not even a position.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Thing is, nothing else seems to count them as canon...and Thon makes no sense...and heck 'Jedi Scholar?' That's not even a position.

...Isn't it? Keeper of Antiquities and all that. Master of the Jedi Library.

And nothing else mentions it, apparently. Doesn't mean nothing else counts it as canon. These guys aren't often talked about.

Originally posted by JollyJim

The point remains: he preformed this feat in the setting of a Sith Ritual and we have no other evidence that says he could do this at a whim in the middle of combat.

That he performed the display of power in the ritual is irrelevant. It's not like he was in a meditative stance Jim; he was stood in the centre, surrounded by his peers, and drawing in all of their power into his body. It would be the combat situation equivalent of him being surrounded on all angles by hostile enemy combatants and having them all simultaneously hurl attacks at him. It's a demonstration of power that he'd be capable of replicating in almost any situation (one of the exceptions perhaps being in the middle of a close combat saber confrontation), and one that puts him in the same category as the likes of Darth Nihilus and Luke Skywalker as someone that can manipulate the Force on the planetary level. And this before:

1. Developing his power for a further ten years (more than three times his then total amount of training time and experience).

2. Refining his ability for a further ten years (see above).

3. Studying all he could of the Force for a further ten years (it's worth noting he also soon goes on to obtain Freedon Nadd's holocron, which contained the entirety of Sadow's knowledge, meaning his knowledge base also grew substantially in both quality and quantity).

4. Gaining a far deeper understanding of the dark side (the most notable example being he has now learnt how to use the dark side in conjunction with the emotions that the dark side feeds off of to create a chain reaction that continuously generates more and more power, granting him a potentially unlimited source of power when you factor in the orbalisk armour's "constant" release of dark side energy as I will bring up below).

5. Obtaining the Orbalisk Armour, which continuously pumps his body up with dark side energies, granting him an increase to his raw power in the dark side to boot, and given what I've explained above, the only real power limitation Bane would now possess is how much preparation time he's allowed and how much energy his body and mind can handle.

It's also worth noting that Ruusan (the place where Bane performed the earlier mentioned extraordinary display of power) -- due to the fact that the dark side was spread too thin among the ranks of the BoD, and the fact that the Jedi had joined forces in mass -- was naturally weak in the dark side, meaning the source through which he draws power from was relatively low at the time.

Factoring in all the points above, and it's pretty clear that Bane's level of power is a good million notches above that of the amulet blasts, and there's really no logical reason to assume that thay'd be a factor in this fight.



The difference being that he was caught completely off guard with his own lightning in the situation you're referring to and as such wouldn't have been in a position to conjure up a shield in time. We're not arguing how naturally resistant his body (or orbalisks rather) is to such energy, we're arguing how capable he is of circumventing it with the Force. This was completely irrelevant.



Well when you phrase it like that, Bane, while still an initiate and not an hour after first learning how to summon force lightning, was capable of conjuring up a storm large enough to fill an entire room capable of holding hundreds of students, with one release of energy. A completely unprecedented display of the ability while he was still familiarising himself with the technique and the Sith equivalent of a youngling. He's been described as far more powerful than the entire BoD, collectively, and when faced with one of the very elite of the group in the form of Quordis, he was described as casually breaking through his Force defences as if they weren't even there. Kaan, the leader of these elite dark siders, who was later on reflected on as a powerful being by Bane himself, and who was naturally gifted with Force persuasions, had no greater effect on Bane's mind "than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar." It's made quite clear that Bane isn't just better than these dark side elite: he's miles better, and he's since improved substantially (dark side knowledge, refinement, developed power, understanding of the dark side, and even his raw power has grown by virtue of the dark side energies he continuously receives through the orbalisk armour; even the dark side from a cosmic perspective has grown substantially since given that it's now focused in two Sith Lords rather than the previous thousands where it was spread too thin).

I wouldn't say it would be that tall a claim to say that his developed power eclipsed that of 20 or so of his far weaker peers. While he wasn't capable of generating such power back in his PoD days, he was more than capable of channeling it, and factoring in his vast improvement since, it's quite probable.



Have you actually read Ro2 Jim, or are you relying on the search button for your info? Because that's quite simply not the case, he had been fitting the crystalline strands in place with such a level of fine control on his very first attempts. His inability to create them had nothing to do with how precisely he had been fitting everything in, but the fact that he hadn't been trapping the capstone within the cognitive network before making the adjustments. Really, know what you're talking about, it gets overly tedious having to explain this midway through a debate when you're expected to know your stuff in the first place.

Not to mention, even if what you're saying had been the case, you're still reaching a false conclusion. Even if the subatomic alterations (let's call those X) had been what had finally enabled him to create them successfully, all that conclusively tells us is that an aspect (could be a part, could be the whole) of X that wasn't present in his earlier attempts was what was necessary. Not necessarily the entirety of X. For instance, perhaps it was necessary that he did it on the atomic level, and that's all that those before him had done. It still puts Bane a good level above, given he goes a step further. Not that any of the above matters, as you're completely wrong about that point, Bane had been making the alterations on his very first attempts; they were not the root of his failings.

It's not really a question of methodology but of precision. All Sith holocrons would have had to have been made by fitting everything into place in a set method. The method isn't up for question. How accurately it's done on the other hand is a question of the person itself, and the precision and control s has at his/her disposal.



Or... as is explained, there was a certain gap in Bane's knowledge, a result of his incomplete instructions, that were ultimately the cause of his failings. Nothing to do with Bane's procedural competence, though if Bane really were inept as you put it, or less competent than the Sith before him, that has... what reflection on his mastery of the Force? None? Ok then. So you could still be open to that possibility and it wouldn't take anything away from what's being argued (Bane's level of mastery and control).



This is getting a bit nitpicky given that I've already more than established my stance, but again, that they used the same method (they did) would have no relation on how accurately and precise the manner they would have done so in.



What's interesting is the fact that you're not open to the possibility of
what was actually the case: Bane's instructions being incomplete. He was following somebody else's instructions, but the fact remains that a key, vital piece of information was missing from those instructions, which was leading to the cognitive network degrading before he could fully make all the alterations.



So because one alternative is uncomplimentary to Bane (in a way that has no relation on his Force ability), we completely discard it? That makes sense. Not that this at all matters, he was following the instructions with perfection, the fact that said instructions were incomplete was beyond his control.



Already addressed.



They're still both particulate in nature and as such can be physically circumvented through the same methods.



Evasion seems to be the only form of defence? It's a tangible attack, and as such can be circumvented with an equal or greater opposing physical force, meaning a Force shield or telekinesis would more than do the trick if the user is strong enough. Now we've already established that Bane can wield the Force on a scale lightyears above that of the amulet blasts, so now that it's clear he possesses valid defences as well, there's absolutely no logical basis in claiming that these amulet blasts would so much as make Bane flinch.



I don't, but that's really not at all necessary. These blasts are material in nature, and as such can be physically pushed back.



Well that's not the case, their weakness to electricity is never attributed to them feeding off of dark side energy, which would quite frankly makes zero sense.



It's more shown than stated down, given, as I said, the electricity from a stun rod had the exact same effect on the orbalisks as Force lightning did.



I never argued that the orbalisks are what would protect Bane from the amulet blasts Jim; for one, the amulet blasts quite easily reach a size that more than fully encompasses a human sized body, and as such Bane's head (as well as a few other small gaps) would be completely vulnerable if all he had protecting him were the orbalisks. I'm not even of the opinion that the orbalisks wold even be a real factor in stopping them. My argument is that Bane's command of the Force will enable him to circumvent them with laughable ease. Again, if he's capable of manipulating energy on a planetary scale, evidence would logically point to him being more than capable of circumventing the street scale amulet blasts.

Taven... you are missing the point. Where is your proof that every sith lord didn't have to make the subatomic alterations that bane did? You keep talking about the "gap in his knowledge"
Okay... so what does that have to do with anything?The gap was not about the sub-atomic alterations. He was following the directions TO THE LETTER in his first few attempts to create a holocron. If he wasn't following them to the letter, and was trying to do his own personal "quality assurance" subatomic manipulations on the holocron, and he kept failing, then he truly is a FOOL. Only a fool would continue to do something different than the directions specify when failure is repeatedly the ultimate conclusion. I don't think Bane a fool. If you do, then go ahead and continue to claim his "unique" holocron ability as a feat. I'll trade you subatomic manipulations for stupidity when discussing bane any day.

Originally posted by truejedi
Taven... you are missing the point. Where is your proof that every sith lord didn't have to make the subatomic alterations that bane did?

Bane is the only one explicitly stated to have done so. There you go.

I even agree with Taven there. S'kinda hypocritical to say that lack of evidence is proof of evidence.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Bane is the only one explicitly stated to have done so. There you go.

Which is different than Bane being explicitly stated to have been the only one to do so. Whereas Truejedi can't make the contention that any Darth Joe Blow had to go through the same steps, it would be equally fallacious for Taven (or you) to contend that only Bane had to.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Bane is the only one explicitly stated to have done so. There you go.

this is a tad ridiculous. That passage is giving us insight into HOW a sith makes a holocron. Bane was making that thing from a template! we were given some insight into the template. nothing more.
Enyalus, are you telling me that Obi-Wan kenobi is the only jedi capable of reversing polarity in a mechanical arm, getting it to open at an opportune time, simply because he is the only one in the mythos that we see accomplish it?
Because using your logic, then that's FACT. Must put obi-wan near or at the top of ALL force users, if he can do something that NONE of the others can. Yay for Obi-Wan. New Force god, you heard it here first....

Same goes for Bane's gambling, is he the ONLY force user CAPABLE of cheating at cards because he's the only one we see do it? i mean, revan obviously couldn't. Pazaak was pretty straight up with him. So Bane is the GREATEST gambler in the history of the galaxy, and the greatest sith, because he alone can feel when the cards are getting hot....
Just because we see someone do something that is unique to what we know of, it in no way implies he is the only person to have done it. ESPECIALLY when he is using someone else's design to build the holocron.
The book stressed over and over how he was so frustrated because he was following all the directions that he had as perfectly as he could, and the holocrons kept failing. What are the chances that a guy trying to follow directions as perfectly as he can would do anything else to alter the design in any way?
And also: doesn't the books say, "the subatomic alterations necessary for....." If that's the quote, then it says they are necessary for the holocron to exist. Not optional, not innovative, NECESSARY.

I don't get it.. This one's a no-brainer when AN OUNCE of reading comprehension is being applied...

I didn't realize that temporarily reversing the polarity on a piece of metal or using precog to cheat at sabacc was the equal of using the Force to control matter on the subatomic level....But okay.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I didn't realize that temporarily reversing the polarity on a piece of metal or using precog to cheat at sabacc was the equal of using the Force to control matter on the subatomic level....But okay.

actually, you can't prove its not.... i mean, what's smaller? a subatomic particle? or a rock? so TECHNICALLY, the subatomic particle is easier to control perhaps that a rock.

Lol, here is where irony guts any argument against it. As Bane IS the only one we actually witness doing it, and the book DOESN'T say it was hard. We have no proof it was hard.

*blinks*


Well, Palpatine makes his Force Storm sound easy. And that's only a rending of space...which consists of subatomic particles.

Conclusion? Bane can make Force Storms!

didn't u just defeat your original point? That bane was the only one able to manipulate subatomic particles? cause you just said sidious did too...

Uh, no. I said Bane was the only one exlicitly stated to have done so. I was never arguing anything on Bane's behalf.

Just pointing it out.

c'mon now, i'm usually the skeptical one with the "no proof of it" articles. I think we both took the exact same tact with seperate views on this one... I can't prove he wasn't, but you can't prove he was, so i think we shouldn't assume he was, and you don't think we should assume he wasn't

When Taven used that argument in the PH thread, I was the first one to mention how other Sith holocrons were made, and even the creation of modern lightsabers (which involve altering the synthetic crystals in some manner.)

So no. I'm with you and Gideon on this.

Considering just how precise one needs to make a Sith Holocron and that it requires those precise adjustments and the time to put into it to be absolutely pitch perfect, seems apparent that's just standard operating procedure.

But Nebaris will never admit that.

Originally posted by Taven
That he performed the display of power in the ritual is irrelevant. It's not like he was in a meditative stance Jim; he was stood in the centre, surrounded by his peers, and drawing in all of their power into his body. It would be the combat situation equivalent of him being surrounded on all angles by hostile enemy combatants and having them all simultaneously hurl attacks at him. It's a demonstration of power that he'd be capable of replicating in almost any situation (one of the exceptions perhaps being in the middle of a close combat saber confrontation), and one that puts him in the same category as the likes of Darth Nihilus and Luke Skywalker as someone that can manipulate the Force on the planetary level. And this before:

He is only shown to be able to 'absorb' lightning from allies when he is ready, and it is not done at a moment's notice. He has time to prepare himself, he was expecting it, and he knew exactly how much power/energy he could take. To say that a feat completed during a controlled ritual could easily be done in combat is just naive. When another person is trying to kill you there is a lot different atmosphere than there was here, and put simply: This is NOT a combat feat, it shows his raw power level, but we have proof that he can NOT absorb lightning in combat. When he is encased in a bubble with his OWN lightning, he is charred to a crisp. As I have said, the idea that Bane's lightning, even powered by orbalisks, is > the Brotherhood's elite is laughable. He is not able to do it instantly, or else he would just have absorbed his own lightning. It is possible that if he knows that he's going to be shot at with lightning he would be able to absorb it, but there is NO WAY that he would know when the blast would actually be coming. If he had enough


As for your list of Bane's most recent feats, number one two, and three are essentially the same thing: study = power when it comes to the force. Yes he is stronger, but the first three items on your list are redundant. He got Nadd's holocron, so we can say that he was empowered by that. Ten years studying it is not worth three slots on your list of reasons Bane is better than he was before. His 'far deeper understanding of the Dark Side' seems only to apply to the usage of his Orbalisks. He frequently loses control of himself, and feels that the Orbalisks have sacrificed cunning for power. As I have said, the Orbalisks endangered his own state of mind. While they were a considerable (read: outrageous) power boost, they came at the cost of fine control and rationality.

Originally posted by Taven
It's also worth noting that Ruusan (the place where Bane performed the earlier mentioned extraordinary display of power) -- due to the fact that the dark side was spread too thin among the ranks of the BoD, and the fact that the Jedi had joined forces in mass -- was naturally weak in the dark side, meaning the source through which he draws power from was relatively low at the time.
I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. Was Ruusan a light side nexus? That is really the only way that Bane might have a power drain in any given location. The idea that someone has to be in an inherently dark place to use the Dark side is fundamentally flawed.
Originally posted by Taven
Factoring in all the points above, and it's pretty clear that Bane's level of power is a good million notches above that of the amulet blasts, and there's really no logical reason to assume that thay'd be a factor in this fight.
Essentially, I have noted TWO points in your argument: That Bane spent ten years studying, during which he had access to the Freedon Nadd holocron, and that the Orbalisks give him an unholy power boost. Both are true. What is NOT true is the assertion that he is "a million notches above the amulet blasts". They double in power per shot, meaning that the fifth shot from the amulet is sixteen times more powerful than the original. The exponential growth of the power being given off would eventually batter down even Bane's defenses.


Originally posted by Taven

The difference being that he was caught completely off guard with his own lightning in the situation you're referring to and as such wouldn't have been in a position to conjure up a shield in time. We're not arguing how naturally resistant his body (or orbalisks rather) is to such energy, we're arguing how capable he is of circumventing it with the Force. This was completely irrelevant.
Actually, it wasn't. Part of the point I was making was that Bane would not always know where the blast was coming from, and would not always have time to prepare. The only time he is capable of circumventing such a large influx of energy is when he has time to prepare- a ritual situation that does not apply to combat.


Originally posted by Taven


I wouldn't say it would be that tall a claim to say that his developed power eclipsed that of 20 or so of his far weaker peers. While he wasn't capable of generating such power back in his PoD days, he was more than capable of channeling it, and factoring in his vast improvement since, it's quite probable.
If you are saying that Bane's lightning is > the combined effort of a group of the most powerful of the ENTIRE Brotherhood, then I don't know how to argue with you. The only feats you have shown are the 'filling of a room with a capacity in the hundreds of people" and the consolidation of power from hundreds into two people. For the former, I can only ask you to substantiate the power of said lightning, and point out that quantity =/= quality. For the latter, again, I have to ask how much the increase was: was it philosophical, cosmic, or a practical shift. If it was practical, then once again you must quantify it: how big of a boost did he receive? I really hate throwing around burden of proof, but I really have to considering that you have claimed that Bane > 20 ELITE Sith Lords. (Fanboyism, anyone?)

Originally posted by Taven Have you actually read Ro2 Jim, or are you relying on the search button for your info? Because that's quite simply not the case, he had been fitting the crystalline strands in place with such a level of fine control on his very first attempts. His inability to create them had nothing to do with how precisely he had been fitting everything in, but the fact that he hadn't been trapping the capstone within the cognitive network before making the adjustments. Really, know what you're talking about, it gets overly tedious having to explain this midway through a debate when you're expected to know your stuff in the first place.I don't like the implications of your statements (that I'm pulling this out of my ass) so I'll go ahead and quote from the damn book. You can argue with an exact replication of cannon, rather than human memory. Enjoy:

The problem was that he didn't have a set of instructions on how to do it in the beginning. When he was making the subatomic alterations, he was making the Holocron an exact replica of Nadd's. The implication is that Nadd's Holocron (if not others) was exact down to the sub-atomic level. (which is ridiculous in the extreme, but this is Star Wars). The only was to achieve the 'sub-atomic precision' would be to alter things on that level. Therefore, we can extrapolate that Freedon Nadd, at least, made similar sub-atomic alterations. From there, since we have yet to see a secondary method of Holocron making, we can deduce that all Sith Holocrons were created using these much vaunted alterations.
Originally posted by Taven

Not to mention, even if what you're saying had been the case, you're still reaching a false conclusion. Even if the subatomic alterations (let's call those X) had been what had finally enabled him to create them successfully, all that conclusively tells us is that an aspect (could be a part, could be the whole) of X that wasn't present in his earlier attempts was what was necessary. Not necessarily the entirety of X. For instance, perhaps it was necessary that he did it on the atomic level, and that's all that those before him had done. It still puts Bane a good level above, given he goes a step further. Not that any of the above matters, as you're completely wrong about that point, Bane had been making the alterations on his very first attempts; they were not the root of his failings.
NO. I admit that I left the 'capstone' problem out of my deductions. You however, haven't given any evidence that Bane wasn't just copying Nadd's holocron exactly- which would include copying the level of precision used. QED.

Originally posted by Taven
It's not really a question of methodology but of precision. All Sith holocrons would have had to have been made by fitting everything into place in a set method. The method isn't up for question. How accurately it's done on the other hand is a question of the person itself, and the precision and control s has at his/her disposal.
Again: You have yet to show that Bane was being any more exact than Nadd, when it said that he copied it exactly.

Originally posted by Taven
This is getting a bit nitpicky given that I've already more than established my stance, but again, that they used the same method (they did) would have no relation on how accurately and precise the manner they would have done so in.

No, the method they used would have to include the same amount of precision that Bane used, because he copied the product exactly (author's words, not mine) The alignment of 'sub atomic particles' (that still makes me laugh) would not happen by mistake, and Bane copied to that level. Imagine a measuring instrument that can create lines to the nearest millionth of a meter. To copy it exactly you would have to use a similar instrument. The situation parallels Holocron production. If the method calls for precision to the sub-atomic level, then to copy it, (what Bane did) would result in sub-atomic changes. To say he did it "just 'cause" is taking a FAR greater assumption than agreeing with the text and saying that he used the same degree of accuracy.

Originally posted by Taven

What's interesting is the fact that you're not open to the possibility of
what was actually the case: Bane's instructions being incomplete. He was following somebody else's instructions, but the fact remains that a key, vital piece of information was missing from those instructions, which was leading to the cognitive network degrading before he could fully make all the alterations.
The only point I made here was that there is no other known method. Yes his instructions were incomplete, and the only assertion I made here is that he did not use a method different than Freedon Nadd to produce his Holocron.


Originally posted by Taven

So because one alternative is uncomplimentary to Bane (in a way that has no relation on his Force ability), we completely discard it? That makes sense. Not that this at all matters, he was following the instructions with perfection, the fact that said instructions were incomplete was beyond his control.
I was giving you an easy out you dolt. Neither was complimentary to the character you support, so I was allowing you to ignore the issue. Since you don't want to, lets examine it more closely.
Everyone else used the same method he does. IF his incapacity leads him to have to make strenuous, dificult and pointless alterations on a subatomic level, then he is unable to make a process work without altering it. The necessity of these alterations is not a badge of pride if he is the only one who has to make them. (Which he isn't.)

Originally posted by Taven

They're still both particulate in nature and as such can be physically circumvented through the same methods.
Their power level quickly increases to FAR beyond the ability of even the most powerful force users to deflect. Exponential growth in short time periods without limiting factors outstrips even gargantuan goals. Imagine a goal of say, 20,000. If we take an initial value of one- giving us the parent function (I'm making up numbers as I go along, just to show the rapid increase of exponential growth) then the initial value would surpass the goal within 15 generations. The amulets become 32768 times more powerful within 15 shots. With the speed of shots seemingly without limits, the power would quickly overcome the strongest of defenses.

Originally posted by Taven

Evasion seems to be the only form of defence? It's a tangible attack, and as such can be circumvented with an equal or greater opposing physical force, meaning a Force shield or telekinesis would more than do the trick if the user is strong enough. Now we've already established that Bane can wield the Force on a scale lightyears above that of the amulet blasts, so now that it's clear he possesses valid defences as well, there's absolutely no logical basis in claiming that these amulet blasts would so much as make Bane flinch.

Lightning is usually caught with a lightsaber, and rarely with hands. You are suggesting that Bane can stop a force more powerful than Lightning by using the force to make it avoid him. Even the most powerful force users (like Yoda) dealt with lightning as it hit them, rather than simply banishing the attack. NOTHING has shown that Dark Side attacks can be bent away from their intended target by the target.
Originally posted by Taven
Well that's not the case, their weakness to electricity is never attributed to them feeding off of dark side energy, which would quite frankly makes zero sense.
I looked it up, and the only book sources say that the Orbalisks can't protect Bane fully from electricity- not that they 'over eat'. I was mistaken.

Originally posted by Taven

It's more shown than stated down, given, as I said, the electricity from a stun rod had the exact same effect on the orbalisks as Force lightning did.
Electricity never hurt the orbalisks, the only stated effect was that they could not fully protect Bane from the effects. It took sith lightning to kill them. (my interpretation that I'd be happy to have disprove)


Originally posted by Taven

I never argued that the orbalisks are what would protect Bane from the amulet blasts Jim; for one, the amulet blasts quite easily reach a size that more than fully encompasses a human sized body, and as such Bane's head (as well as a few other small gaps) would be completely vulnerable if all he had protecting him were the orbalisks. I'm not even of the opinion that the orbalisks wold even be a real factor in stopping them. My argument is that Bane's command of the Force will enable him to circumvent them with laughable ease. Again, if he's capable of manipulating energy on a planetary scale, evidence would logically point to him being more than capable of circumventing the street scale amulet blasts.
My rebuttal to this boils down to:
1. Amulets are far from 'street scale'. They gain power at a ridiculous rate.
2. Manipulating energy on a planetary scale has only been shown in ritual not in combat.
3. Circumventing the Amulets is easier said than done- The blasts are people size- so I don't see just a lightsaber blocking it, and taking a blast to the face = death.
4. The orbalisks become involved when the blast hits him, and if they're still matter- they still transfer force. The energy from the blast would still reach Bane, and still pulverize him.

Sorry for the Name change, I actually have a sig. I was making, but it turns out that I suck at Photoshop, so I asked for help. The change happened before the sig, and so the current confusion. It stems from the fact that I'm a ginger (red) and that I love Odyssey: Nemesis (greatest old game ever)

Not really a refutation of your claims here, but Kaan and others actually broke the ritual because they felt that Bane was going to drain them completely of their energy and kill them. "When you were focusing our Force, channeling it to destroy the Jedi, we felt -- as if your teeth were on our throats. As if you were going to suck us dry."

Prior to that, Kopecz also says, 'You frighten us, Bane.' And 'Fear. That is why we broke the circle.'



Bane had three holocrons. Revan's, Nadd's, and Belia's. That's a lot of knowledge/room for improvement.



I think it was Raynar Thuul who could bend blaster shots away from him using the Force. Not quite the same, but meh.



Electricity was how Caleb removed most of the living orbalisks from Bane's body (Bane's lightning only managed to kill a few). He had to insert a needle into their soft underbelly and shock them that way - using a starship's engine's power. Bane's Lightning killed a few of them because they gorged on the Dark Side power of it until they essentially "overfed." Kind of, overloaded their system.

Thanks. I'm actually looking at the book right now, but I really didn't re-read that part very carefully.

No worries. Anything for a fellow commie. Ya stal!!

Sorry, this is too much a 'leap of faith'. Saying that just becuase Bane did it, so others must have isn't enough. While I can sympathise, the others Holocrons could easily have been made via technology or perhaps even some other way.

Despite all known Sith Lords having created their own Holocrons and the only way to do so is via the Force?
That's a terrible argument, exodus

How do you know that it has to be done via the force? It seems to me that there are other ways (technology)

Well, seems to the writers at LFL when they've described Jedi and Sith holocrons, one needs the Force to make them, because everything needs to be so absolutely precise.

There's an ordinary recording device and then there's a Jedi or Sith holocron. Please show me one instance when the latter two have been seen using technology? Because I'll be glad to use some quotes

Errrr.... You've lost me. All I'm saying is that its plausible that with the advanced technology of Star Wars it wouldn't be too difficult to create a holocron with such precision. Even if you needed to do stuff at a sub-atomic level, its plausable.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Errrr.... You've lost me. All I'm saying is that its plausible that with the advanced technology of Star Wars it wouldn't be too difficult to create a holocron with such precision. Even if you needed to do stuff at a sub-atomic level, its plausable.

Except saying that it was done via some advanced piece of machinery is a stretch and begs some proof, of which you can't produce.

Really, I think it's ironic that it's Taven (nebris yes?) who started putting forth this argument, especially considering what a fan he is/was over Occam's razor. Using said principle we'd have to assume that all holocrons were made the same way. We know Bane is following someone elses template, so without any evidence to the contrary we have to assume that anything he did in the process of creating said holocron was a necessary step.

So are you saying that luke is the only one to use the force to create his lightsaber? Did the other jedi get theirs from a great big lightsaber assembly line? According to you Exodus, we should ASSUME they did, until we see more jedi using the force to create their lightsabers.
its a bigger assumption than assuming they were all alike...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, seems to the writers at LFL when they've described Jedi and Sith holocrons, one needs the Force to make them, because everything needs to be so absolutely precise.

There's an ordinary recording device and then there's a Jedi or Sith holocron. Please show me one instance when the latter two have been seen using technology? Because I'll be glad to use some quotes

Um, actually the writer of Jedi vs. Sith speculates that they don't know how holocrons are made, whether the alterations are done using only the Force or 'whether they can be replicated with technology'.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Game mechanics there.


Description of items aren't "game mechanics", Lightsnake.



Where was it said that it was the "first" cortosis suit that was constructed after the death of Kun, eh? And no, lightsnake. According to the SW RPG rules a cortosis weave armor is going to short-circuit lightsabers. The Cortosis alloy weapons don't do the job. Weave and ore of Cortosis do.



He's taller, yes. Doesn't mean anything.

Faster? Right. You may notice the situation where Kun is attempting to take the scroll from Nadds tomb and is stopped by the two Naddist armed with blasters. Before one of them can do so much and pull the trigger, Kun pulls out his lightsaber, cuts the first down, switches the weapon hand, crosses several metres of distance and cuts the second down. Talk about speed.

Strength? Right. Kun is just capable of pushing his finger through the skull of the Republic Chancellor and then lift the alien from the ground with his fingers in the alien skull and just one arm. That aside from pushing a Cathar Jedi down on her knees which just one arm.

And Bane being more powerful? That actually begs for proof, considering Kun's force showings in direct combat as well as Kun's greater force works . That aside from the fact that Kun possessed "more knowledge than he could ever use".




The armor has more than one vulnerable spot, apparently. Any joints would be vunerable, meaning that the orbalisk armor would have vunerable spots at the knees, ankles, elbows, shoulders, wrists, hibs and of course the neck and the head.



The curved hilt is not a "style", Lightsnake. It just allows greater precission, which doesn't matter. Even less considering that Kun mastered Bane's style.

And yes...it won't take Bane long to adapt to an unfamiliar style, hence Kas'im kicked his ass through the entire temple. And Kun's sword isn't a regular DBL: It has a short hilt, is wielded with one hand by Kun and the guy can alter the blade-length and internsity using the force. That's something entirely different from whatever Kas'im did with the weapon.



Yeah, right. Because Bane encountered so many master duellist during his career that he managed to outduel, right? I, personally, had the impression that he won most of his fight by superior force powers. An advantage he probably won't have against Exar Kun.

The above is a very, very cool post.

Unless Bane got a lot more powerful in some recent book that I haven't read I don't think he could take Exar.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Unless Bane got a lot more powerful in some recent book that I haven't read I don't think he could take Exar.

Why yes. He did.

Which is that?

GASP!!! Glentract!

Hey whats up dude

Where the hell did Glentract come from?

What do you mean?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Description of items aren't "game mechanics", Lightsnake.
They're of dubious canonicity At best unless they appear outside and to date? To my knowledge only the Qel-Droma robe has.
Unless we want to argue that Freedon Nadd's blaster somehow killed more Jedi than any Lightsaber when he never met a single Jedi after he fled the Order to date?



Evil Never Dies: the sith Dynasties, by Lorian Nod, a member of the Brotherhood who fled at war's end.
And no, Nai, according to actual canon, there are two types: Weave and ore
Pure cortosis ore will deactivate a saber, as seen in the Thrawn Duology, Purge, Legacy and the Clone Wars comics.
Weave, as seen in 'Rite of Passage,' Path of Destruction and others, it just blocks them. In KOTOR, Cortosis 'Weave' is the one specifically said to stop a saber

The reason given is that cortosis is brittle and needs to be mixed with other metals but loses its shutdown capabilities.

Weave is specifically referred to in several places as what blocks. Ore is the deactivater.


Do you really think a seven foot tall fighter whose head is his only vulnerable spot is somehow not going to have an advantage against the shorter man?


Ok. So Kun does something that any force sensitive should be able to do and kills two Non-Force sensitive Naddist thugs before they can react.
How about you give me an actually impressive speed feat. Against a Force Sensitive.
and 'several meters?' They're right in front of him. If this is speed, how about Lord Kopecz who sees a squad of soldiers coming at him on the Republic flagship in the first battle of Ruusan, butchers the entire squad of Republic troopers before all but one can get a shot off? With his saber? And even then he notes she must have been really good for that. If we're measuring it on that, Kopecz>>>>Kun in speed.

And when did he switch weapon hands? He's holding the scrolls with his left hand when he emerges...when he cuts down the scrolls...he cuts down the first Naddist, then the other...and the scrolls are still in his left hand.

Bane, by contrast, is able to fend off both Raskta Lsu of all people and Farfalla simultaneously. It takes Johun providing enough of a distraction to even make it an impasse with Bane's orbalisks. In another instance, it's said Bane seems to be wielding a dozen sabers at once when he assaults Zannah.

When he's younger-and this, by the by, is without the orbalisks pumping adrenaline into him, making him stronger and faster, he defeats Sirak by delivering a chop to the arm and then breaks his leg.
to the entirety of the spectators, including Blademaster Kas'im, Bane has merely moved as a blur and it takes them a moment to register what had happened. According to Kaan and Kopecz, these apprentices are amongst the most powerful of the Order and this isn't done against two blaster wielding thugs, but a force sensitive sith apprentice. even Johun Othone is described as moving faster than the eye can see when he takes out two of the blaster wielding terrorists attacking the Chancellor.

I'm not doubting Kun is likely very fast. But faster than Bane? With the orbalisks feeding him?

Jerec is able to lift a man off the ground when the guy is wearing a suit with miniature tractor beams in his boosts. If you are going to argue for a second that picking up and grinding your fingers into the head of a boneless alien really compares to Bane, who was a physical powerhouse before he even joined the sith-seven foot mountain of muscle...then he learned how to amplify himself with the Force, THEN he got the Orbalisks.
Farfalla reflects in the fight that Bane is too strong physically as well as in the Dark Side. An elbow from him lifts Raskta Lsu up off her feet and sends her flying. A single blow from his saber was enough to disarm Farfalla-who was capable of handling Kopecz's dying fury without much apparent problems.



He catches her off guard by grabbing and shoving her in a burst of rage. You're making this seem like sylar was actively resisting him at the time.

Is this really comparable to a single strike disarming a Jedi Master who's fully prepared to engage you. Said Jedi master being a council member and war veteran.

If we want to play the ritual game, Bane channeled a force capable of deforesting and altering the entire climate of Ruusan-and don't deny, this was him channeling all of it. He was the one in control and they were even afraid he was going to suck them dry, being too powerful in the Force for two battle hardened and powerful Jedi simultaneously, generating lightning capable of burning three humans at once to ash and bones-with one hand, and turning their giant Drexl to a charred hulk. He routinely shatters protection barriers of rather powerful people with his attacks, a desperate Force Wave brought down the entire Temple of the Ancients... His raw potential was rather amazing and in three years, with no prior training in the Force at all, he became the most powerful member of the Brotherhood and probably the most powerful Force user in the galaxy. He's able to resist the effects of the Thought Bomb, disintegrate technobeasts...if we look at the showings in direct combat, Bane rips through force barriers of powerful Force Users like they aren't even there. The only person to apparently be resistant to that was Kas'im and only then because it was a desperate lash out from a weakened, drained and injured Bane that wasn't anything close to the focused attacks he uses on others.

He obliterates the spirits of Qordis and Kaan when he emerges from the tomb of Nadd on Dxun, is able to bear the Orbalisks and even uses the constant agony as a source of fuel for himself

And don't forget his knowledge-from Revan, Nadd-who's knowledge encompasses what Kun knows and likely surpasses it- and Belia Darzu. He has all of that and by Rule of Two, he's had ten years to improve.
Bane is an absolute beast with the Force, it's pretty undeniable. he made the most powerful people of his time look like children after he got Revan's Holocron and only got stronger since




His neck is protected, the head is not. The only vulnerable spots at all are the wrists and head that we know of and Johun could only note the former-considering Bane wears gloves- after a lengthy battle whereupon Bane's clothing had mostly been sliced away when Bane was having to also occupy his time with Farfalla and the greatest swordsbeing in the galaxy.

Frankly, I sincerely doubt anyone who doesn't possess a Shatterpoint ability is going to be able to perceive those gaps.



Ok, not a 'style,' but you understand what I was getting at
Mastered Bane's style, huh? When is Kun known as a Djem So user?
And yes, Nai, it does matter. Anyone can tell Bane uses Djem So pretty easily. However, Farfalla notes Bane's saber gives him a unique advantage over the other three-and with the exception of Johun, they're not an unskilled lot at all.
Bane and Farfalla both note Bane's curved hilt alters his strikes by just enough that if Raskta hadn't yelled out a warning to Farfalla, Bane would've taken his arm immediately, and this is Farfalla amped up on BM. A curved hilt is described as having an advantage in dueling with every form

Not just ANY Jar'Kai user was going to get that done. Kas'im was possibly the greatest swordsman ever according to PoD and Jar'Kai was apparently his specialty and trump. This is also at a point when Bane is younger, more arrogant-Kas'im'd be dead if Bane didn't pause in the doorway, Kas'im even said as much...that, and Bane's quite a bit more familiar with Jar'kai ten years hence.
By the same token, Bane's mastery with the saber can probably be said to exceed Kun's. Familiarity inside and out with all the known forms of his time, the DBL, Jar'Kai after the whole Kas'im thing and his curved hilt style giving him an advantage-did the KOTOR era even have curved hilts?


The only style Bane was unfamiliar with was Jar'Kai then...Kas'im had trained him fluently in everything else and the DBL to boot. Throw that in with insta healing injuries, the orbalisks feeding into him and pain fueled force screams, Bane is pretty damn something in a straight fight. I believe Kun's a very good swordsman, one of the best who ever lived. However, with available evidence, I can't say he surpasses Bane there.


This needs to be proven. He swings it thrice and only once can we see the number of hands he's using and it's both.
Sarro Xaj wasn't wielding a 'regular' DBL either, but a giant, ten foot long monster of a weapon that he was also able to twirl around himself with one hand, IIRC. And recall, as it stands now, Kun did not invent the style or the lightsaber given JvS said he was following instructions from the Exiles' Holocron.
Point is, this isn't going to guarantee an instant kill. The only reason Raskta survived more than a few moments into the fight was Farfalla-she, like Exar, isn't aware of the Orbalisks and the curved hilt saber makes just as much a difference. I can provide the quotes on that if you like.



He can, but orbalisks are not going to cut through and altering blade length isn't much help against Bane there.
Also, most sabers can alter in intensity



Yeah, right. Because Bane encountered so many master duellist during his career that he managed to outduel, right?
Erm...yeah?
He had Kas'im outdueled until the Jar'Kai trick-something that won't work on Rule of Two Bane, he had Raskta beaten pretty early if not for Farfalla...he had Farfalla, a powerful Jedi Master and master duelist in his own right beaten from the get go until Raskta saved him-and both of them are on Battle Meditation...Qordis acknowledged that Bane could kill him just as easily with his saber as with the Force...when Kas'im was dead, there was no other Sith a match for Bane with a saber. None.

By that logic, how many master duelists has Exar faced during his career that he has managed to outduel? He stalemated Ulic, killed Vodo-and there's really very little telling us Vodo is to the level of the elites we're talking....and I think that's really it.



As far as dueling ability goes, Ro2 Bane is extremely broken and his Force Power is just as broken.
He won his fight with Kas'im via the Force, yes, but if not for the Jar'Kai and Bane's utter unfamiliarity coupled with Kas'im being probably the best Jar'Kai duelist who'd ever lived to that point as well as Kas'im being perfectly familiar with the curved hilt saber and Bane stopping to savor his victory, Kas'im was a dead man and Bane's learned never to allow his opponents a chance like he did Kas'im again.
But that aside:
Sirak? Ok, Sirak's position as a 'master duelist' is a bit sketchy, but this is a much younger and weaker Bane and he's able to toy with the very least extremely skilled Sirak, and disable him without using the Force once.
The Umbarans? Bane kills them all with his saber, I believe. And Umbaran Shadow assassins aren't weaklings.
The big Jedi fight? None of them, even with BM, are a match for Bane with dueling ability or strength in the Force and it takes the trio of them to put it at an impasse. When Raskta is dead, Bane duels Farfalla for moments before relieving him of his head. Bane's dueling skills are pretty exceptional and it's hard to deny...the Orbalisks are the big draw for him, though



And I assure you, in the third book, we'll see Bane defeating the entire Jedi Order, mindwiping them and then going back to have a latte with how Karpyshyn's been doing

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Which is that?

Rule of two. Bane gets much stronger

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Rule of two. Bane gets much stronger

I read that and there was nothing in it that led me to believe that he could take the likes of Kun

It's hilarious to see you arguing from a pro-Bane POV, LS. LOL!

Three points: Bane is 6'6'', not 7''. According to Wookieepedia, Kun is 1.9 meters, which is nearly 6'3''. Not a big height difference.

JvS says that Kun might have gotten the design for his saber from the Exiles Holocron. It's not certain. And it also isn't certain that the holocron was even from the Exiles.

And my third point regards 'And I assure you, in the third book, we'll see Bane defeating the entire Jedi Order, mindwiping them and then going back to have a latte with how Karpyshyn's been doing'...

...Okay, so, the Jedi think the Sith are extinct until Maul kills Qui-Gon. But yet they automatically know that 'Always two there are. A master and an apprentice.' But, they believe the Sith to be extinct after the Battle of Ruusan - before the Rule of Two was used. So how, exactly, do the Jedi know this? Does Bane decide to magically leave a replica of his holocron for the Jedi Archives? Did GL f*ck up yet again with his storyline?

The way I look at it, Palpatine and Yoda were in on it from the beginning. But when Palpatine enacted Order 66 and attempted to screw Yoda, he decided to strike back at the Emperor. When that failed, he went back to his "old Jedi sage" routine. I mean, come on, he's a demonstrably proficient liar. And no one that perceptive would be unable to sense the decline of the Republic. The obvious conclusion is that Yoda was Sidious's true apprentice.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Three points: Bane is 6'6'', not 7''. According to Wookieepedia, Kun is 1.9 meters, which is nearly 6'3''. Not a big height difference

Why would their height matter at all. I guess Yoda must be weaker than the average padawan cause he's shorter. Paul Anderson (the strongest man who has ever lived) was 5'9. Not that tall.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It's hilarious to see you arguing from a pro-Bane POV, LS. LOL!

Three points: Bane is 6'6'', not 7''. According to Wookieepedia, Kun is 1.9 meters, which is nearly 6'3''. Not a big height difference.
Fair 'nough

They said new information arises....as it is, though, his inventive talents are called in question

How is this GL's fault? If anything, it's Karpyshyn's...Yoda probably fights some Sith and kills him at one point.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I read that and there was nothing in it that led me to believe that he could take the likes of Kun

Did you read my post? If anything, Kun's displayed a lack of ability in regards to combat that would equate to taking Bane.

Originally posted by Gideon
The way I look at it, Palpatine and Yoda were in on it from the beginning. But when Palpatine enacted Order 66 and attempted to screw Yoda, he decided to strike back at the Emperor. When that failed, he went back to his "old Jedi sage" routine. I mean, come on, he's a demonstrably proficient liar. And no one that perceptive would be unable to sense the decline of the Republic. The obvious conclusion is that Yoda was Sidious's true apprentice.

That is blasphemy, Gideon! It is obvious that Sidious was Yoda's apprentice. Zannah's apprentice was clearly Yoda's master. And Plagueis was simply a puppet, designed to throw off Palpatine's perceptions of who was really pulling the strings in the Sith Order. Once Palpatine discovers the truth....treachery is the way of the Sith.

I hope I am wording this right, but what bothers me about Kun possibly learning about the DBL design from the exiles is then why didn't anyone else use the same hilt design as Kun since he supposedly didn't invent it according to JvS.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It's hilarious to see you arguing from a pro-Bane POV, LS. LOL!


And my third point regards 'And I assure you, in the third book, we'll see Bane defeating the entire Jedi Order, mindwiping them and then going back to have a latte with how Karpyshyn's been doing'...

...Okay, so, the Jedi think the Sith are extinct until Maul kills Qui-Gon. But yet they automatically know that 'Always two there are. A master and an apprentice.' But, they believe the Sith to be extinct after the Battle of Ruusan - before the Rule of Two was used. So how, exactly, do the Jedi know this? Does Bane decide to magically leave a replica of his holocron for the Jedi Archives? Did GL f*ck up yet again with his storyline?

I thought that Bane distilled the Rule of Two from Revan's teachings. After all, Revan only took one apprentice. Yoda might have been referring to the idea that since the Brotherhood was destroyed, the rule would default to just two sith.

Problem is, there's no evidence the Jedi knew that and Bane destroyed the Holocron

LET MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF STAND!!!!!! STAR WARS IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INTERNALLY CONSISTENT!!!!!!

Maybe in the third book we'll have a revelation to the Jedi (from Zannah) about their numbers in a bungled attempt to emulate Bane's "subtle plans" (Rule of Two- the book said it- not me)

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I thought that Bane distilled the Rule of Two from Revan's teachings. After all, Revan only took one apprentice. Yoda might have been referring to the idea that since the Brotherhood was destroyed, the rule would default to just two sith.

Meh, Rivan's Empire and Kaan's came after Revan, though. Both using the multiple Sith rule.

Originally posted by Gideon
The way I look at it, Palpatine and Yoda were in on it from the beginning. But when Palpatine enacted Order 66 and attempted to screw Yoda, he decided to strike back at the Emperor. When that failed, he went back to his "old Jedi sage" routine. I mean, come on, he's a demonstrably proficient liar. And no one that perceptive would be unable to sense the decline of the Republic. The obvious conclusion is that Yoda was Sidious's true apprentice.


I orgasmed from the sheer epicness of that idea.