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Yoda, Mace, Obiwan vs Sidious, Dooku, Vader(pre-suit). All are ROTS version.

1. Saber only
2. Force only
3. All out

Ick. I think the Sith take things pretty easily. In sabers, they've got a chance if Mace can deal with Dooku quickly. But in the Force and by consequence, all out, the Sith should dominate.

1. Sabers, Sith - 6/10.
2. Force, Sith - 8/10.
3. All Out, Sith - 7/10.

jedis??
siths?!?!?!?!
with an S????
blasphemy!!

but on topic the sith win

Question: Why doesn't he like cats?

Scratch that.

Mace with Vaapad and Shatterpoint defeats Sidious. But take away the Force, does he still have those? Or are they considered (well, Vaapad at least) Saber techniques?

Oh and the pluralization pissed me off too.

Originally posted by Kenobiwan
Yoda, Mace, Obiwan vs Sidious, Dooku, Vader(pre-suit). All are ROTS version.

1. Saber only
2. Force only
3. All out


all these were ALREADY done witht the jedi triumphing each time. and worst case scenario obi wan is in trouble but mace and yoda could finish off thier opponents in time to help

Jedi take sabers, but the Sith take Force and all-out.

I'd give it to the Sith.

The Jedi definitely take the lightsaber round. Windu's Vaapad and shatterpoint charism will be enough to defeat either Sidious or Dooku (and Yoda could defeat Dooku there as well), and if Vader fights like the moron he is against Obi-Wan, he'll lose there to. Though, given that Yoda and Mace will win either of their battles, I'm tempted to say that it won't matter either way.

So, um, at best (for the Sith), Obi-Wan dies. And that's the only casualty I see the Jedi taking.

The Sith take the Force contest for obvious reasons. Anakin or Obi-Wan are cannon fodder here and both can (and would) be taken out rather easily. Dooku could take Windu, Sidious could manhandle him, and Dooku + Sidious vs Yoda = one crispy-fied Grandmaster.

All out? Um... actually, I don't know.

The movies did all these match ups and the jedi won evrytime. Anakin vs Obi wan Obi Wan won. Mace vs Sid Mace woulda of won if anakin wasnt there. And Yoda vs Dooku Yoda wins

Pre Suited Vader was curling massive temple statues like missiles and Force Crushing durasteel blast doors. He definitely takes out Obi-Wan in a Force contest and is at least the equal of Mace there.

But Obi Wan did defeat Pre suit Vader

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pre Suited Vader was curling massive temple statues like missiles and Force Crushing durasteel blast doors. He definitely takes out Obi-Wan in a Force contest and is at least the equal of Mace there.

You did see the RotS movie, didn't you?

Holy shiznizzle. I forgot all about that. Enyalus, Anakin can't overcome Obi-Wan in a Force push contest.

I find it interesting that people consider Obi-Wan to be weak with the force, yet he was able to stalemate Anakin "I shatter ceilings with my voice" Skywalker in a force duel, especially considering he was amped with the dark side at the time.

Originally posted by Gideon
Holy shiznizzle. I forgot all about that. Enyalus, Anakin can't overcome Obi-Wan in a Force push contest.

Correct, Sir. Vader can't do that...

Originally posted by Gideon
if Vader fights like the moron he is against Obi-Wan, he'll lose there to.

Originally posted by Gideon
Holy shiznizzle. I forgot all about that. Enyalus, Anakin can't overcome Obi-Wan in a Force push contest.

I didn't realize we were using a mentally crippled Vader as the standard.

WTF.

How else is he going to fight against Obi-Wan? He goes nuts fighting against the man whom he loved like a brother/father, his mentor, his teacher. He identifies Obi-Wan as the source of the Jedi's problems and Padme's betrayal and he fights like a moron.

Originally posted by Gideon
WTF.

How else is he going to fight against Obi-Wan? He goes nuts fighting against the man whom he loved like a brother/father, his mentor, his teacher. He identifies Obi-Wan as the source of the Jedi's problems and Padme's betrayal and he fights like a moron.

I thought psychology wasn't a factor in vs. fights? Make up your mind. It's either Pre Suited Vader at his peak, or a repeat of Mustafar.

Jedi win all three

Well i dont think pre suit vader was ever that mentally stable so.....

Originally posted by Enyalus
I thought psychology wasn't a factor in vs. fights? Make up your mind. It's either Pre Suited Vader at his peak, or a repeat of Mustafar.

We're not discussing arrogance or a singular mistake, Enyalus. His state of mind was that he clearly lost any semblance of rationality, "trapped between worlds then" and "vulnerable" according to Darth Sidious. Moreover, keep in mind that my statement was thus:

"If Vader fights like the moron he is against Obi-Wan, he'll lose there too."

Originally posted by Gideon
We're not discussing arrogance or a singular mistake, Enyalus. His state of mind was that he clearly lost any semblance of rationality, "trapped between worlds then" and "vulnerable" according to Darth Sidious. Moreover, keep in mind that my statement was thus:

"If Vader fights like the moron he is against Obi-Wan, he'll lose there too."

Yes, and my contention was that this is presumably peak versions of each specified character. In the novelization it said that when Padme touched down on Mustafar he had to summon up his "Anakin" persona. Which is probably why he is "half Jedi and half Sith" during his battle with Obi-Wan there. Clearly it wasn't his best.

I'd think Vader beats Obi-Wan every time in the Force or Sabers when operating at his peak.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pre Suited Vader was curling massive temple statues like missiles and Force Crushing durasteel blast doors. He definitely takes out Obi-Wan in a Force contest and is at least the equal of Mace there.
Wait are you talkin ROTS video game, remember non canon, if we want to use that then lol Anakin will molest Mace Windu in a straight up duel.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wait are you talkin ROTS video game, remember non canon, if we want to use that then lol Anakin will molest Mace Windu in a straight up duel.

The feats in it are canon.

Ah, so Anakin did pwn Mace who was by the end of the duel out of breath and Anakin not even a drop of sweat so according to that game Anakin>>Mace

Originally posted by Enyalus
The feats in it are canon.

Just like the ones in TFU.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Just like the ones in TFU.

Except the developers of the ROTS game never specifically stated that the "powers in The Force Unleashed are exaggerated to give gamers a more thrilling experience."

The comic, novelization, cutscenes, and databank all make note of these feats and how they are done.

They're canon. Accept it and move on.

Star Wars is like a mountain range when it comes to consistency with the force, one moment you may be roaring crazy high in uber destructive power, the next you will be in a deep ravine of mediocrity.

The ROTS Video game is simply non canon. Dooku gets stabbed rather than decapitated, Grievous has a duel with Kenobi after the chase on the bike, Mace Windu gets destroyed by Anakin who doesn't so much break a sweat, Cin Drallig duels Anakin in a different fashion then he does in the movies, Nute Gunray gets killed in a shuttle rather than slashed across the chest. The Separatists are aware of Darth Vader's true purpose before he enters the Separatist Council's room. All the Jedi knights in the temple are Zabraks. The game contradicts multiple sources of Canon, and cannot possibly be seriously used in debates

It is not non-canon. Merely the feats that are contradicted by a higher source. The official script has Yoda disarming Sidious and beating the **** out of him. The movie doesn't show either. So is the whole thing non-canon? No.

Originally posted by Gideon
The comic, novelization, cutscenes, and databank all make note of these feats and how they are done.

They're canon. Accept it and move on.

I do. I never said they weren't.

Originally posted by Gideon
It is not non-canon. Merely the feats that are contradicted by a higher source. The official script has Yoda disarming Sidious and beating the **** out of him. The movie doesn't show either. So is the whole thing non-canon? No.
It contradicts the Movie on not minor instances but several major instances. Does the script specifically contradict the movie on any scale like Skywalker>>>>Mace. The ROTS Video game is an awful source for information, a fun game but quite the load of BS

It doesn't matter. Only the parts that directly contradict the movie are non-canon. The rest aren't.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
a fun game but quite the load of BS

Not even that. The game sucks. 6 strikes with a lightsaber to kill a droid? 30+ to kill Dooku? Ugh. I hate that kinda shit. Give me JA any day.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not even that. The game sucks. 6 strikes with a lightsaber to kill a droid? 30+ to kill Dooku? Ugh. I hate that kinda shit. Give me JA any day.
Agreed, it is only fun with cheats lol

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Agreed, it is only fun with cheats lol

Turning Supersabers on while fighting Grievous is scary...

wait a minute.... Jedi Power battles. Remember this game? How canon is it? Did Obi-wan and Qui-Gonn really fight a giant droid creature onboard the seperatist ship at the beginning, JUST BECAUSE a movie or book doesn't specifically say they didn't? ditto for a lot of levels on that one.... Did they actually fight their way through hoardes of gungans? cause i would think that would cause a bit of a problem later on... but i don't have a source that specifically says they DIDN'T kill a bunch of gungans...

Originally posted by truejedi
wait a minute.... Jedi Power battles. Remember this game? How canon is it? Did Obi-wan and Qui-Gonn really fight a giant droid creature onboard the seperatist ship at the beginning, JUST BECAUSE a movie or book doesn't specifically say they didn't? ditto for a lot of levels on that one.... Did they actually fight their way through hoardes of gungans? cause i would think that would cause a bit of a problem later on... but i don't have a source that specifically says they DIDN'T kill a bunch of gungans...

Was that on Dreamcast? I loved the one for Sega. Plo Koon Rules!

Dreamcast = Best System Ever.

it was, i played it on playstation though. I had a dreamcast for awhile, then ended up trading it for a SNES, because i missed playing SNES donkey Kong..... kinda pathetic i know.

Originally posted by truejedi
it was, i played it on playstation though. I had a dreamcast for awhile, then ended up trading it for a SNES, because i missed playing SNES donkey Kong..... kinda pathetic i know.

No more pathetic than what we do here, really.

I liked how the one Jedi had a red lightsaber, and my friend was all like: NO WAY SHES A SITH and I was like: WAY-COLOR COMES FROM CRYSTALS and he was like: WOAH HOW DO U KNOW and I was like: I'M A SW NERD WHAT DO U XPECT?

Originally posted by truejedi
wait a minute.... Jedi Power battles. Remember this game? How canon is it? Did Obi-wan and Qui-Gonn really fight a giant droid creature onboard the seperatist ship at the beginning, JUST BECAUSE a movie or book doesn't specifically say they didn't? ditto for a lot of levels on that one.... Did they actually fight their way through hoardes of gungans? cause i would think that would cause a bit of a problem later on... but i don't have a source that specifically says they DIDN'T kill a bunch of gungans...

Well, actually it didnt have to be Obi Wan and Qui Gon, it could have been Plo Koon or Mace Windu, or the other jedi you could be.

The Sith will win in a close fight.

Why the unsubstantiated opinion resulting in a bump? Did you think more needed to be said?

The sith wouldn't win this fight. Yoda>=Sidious Mace>=Dooku And Obi-Wan is > Anakin. how do the sith pull this off? Even this way: Mace>=Sidious,(combat) Yoda>Dooku and Obi-wan >Anakin

why the heck is the vote 6-2 sith?

At least the sith would win in the force fight...

sith always win force fights. its why jedi attack with their lightsabers. They don't use the force to kill. Force fights are rigged in our analysis because of this.

If Sidious brings his Force powers to bear against Windu, he'll win. Obi-Wan is screwed in an all out fight; either Dooku or Sidious can dispose of him handily. And then it comes down to Yoda versus Sidious and Dooku, which ends in a curbstomp for the Sith duo.

But Yoda would beat Maul in a force fight.
And I agree that the sith would win in the all out fight too.

it would have to go down that way though. I mean, why would yoda sit back and let mace get toasted? I'm not so sure that ROTS sidious can just eliminate Mace with the force. If worse came to worse on the window sill, all mace had to do was step back. Thus the pressure would be that much less. (all the force from teh lightning would be from an electromagnetic field, correct? so stepping back and changing the distance would lower that force dramatically. The reason sidious had mace with his saber almost to his face was because mace wouldn't back down. Mace could at least live until Yoda won his battle with Dooku, which honestly, considering dooku can't run away in this one, shouldn't be too awful long.



I'm not sure it would go down like that anyway,
Seems like Yoda would attack Sidious first. Anakin can't dispose of obi-wan in a force fight, and Dooku probably isn't a match for mace.

If obiwan got toasted by sidious or dooku quickly, the sith will win. But again, this fight can goes either way and I think the sith will win 6/10.

Originally posted by truejedi
it would have to go down that way though. I mean, why would yoda sit back and let mace get toasted? I'm not so sure that ROTS sidious can just eliminate Mace with the force. If worse came to worse on the window sill, all mace had to do was step back. Thus the pressure would be that much less. (all the force from teh lightning would be from an electromagnetic field, correct? so stepping back and changing the distance would lower that force dramatically. The reason sidious had mace with his saber almost to his face was because mace wouldn't back down. Mace could at least live until Yoda won his battle with Dooku, which honestly, considering dooku can't run away in this one, shouldn't be too awful long.



I'm not sure it would go down like that anyway,
Seems like Yoda would attack Sidious first. Anakin can't dispose of obi-wan in a force fight, and Dooku probably isn't a match for mace.
No thats why it is such a close match
I say 5/5 equally tied, as soon as Dooku or Sids KO's Kenobi, Mace or Yoda can do the same to Anakin. If Obi-Wan fights Anakin, Mace fights Sidious, and Yoda fights Dooku. If Obi-Wan or Yoda can pull a victory before Sidious breaks Mace's defenses the Jedi win, but if Sidious wins before Yoda or Obi-Wan can bring a victory, the Sith will win. OR if Yoda takes Sidious, and Dooku takes Mace, it is possible for them to stalemate each other, actually enviornment is key here. Because if it is in the Grand Convocation room then the Sith will win, Mace cannot compete with Dooku's mastery of force grip. And Sidious and Yoda will stalemate. But, if it is in the Genosian hangar and it is close range I'd wager Yoda's victory over Sidious, possibly Mace's victory over Dooku, but the two are damned close. Obi-Wan will lose to Anakin. Then its Mace and Yoda vs. Dooku and Anakin. Jedi win

why couldn't mace block Dooku's grip? it doesn't seem all that superior. The only person he ever grips with it is kenobi, who is hardly the poster boy for leading force attack defender.

This is part of the issue that manifested itself in the DE Sidious versus Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Mace thread.



Absolutely not. There is, in fact, no reason to support this theory. Your contention is that Mace Windu could somehow survive Darth Sidious's superior command of the Force by "backing up," which is ridiculous, and then you cite that Windu "couldn't have backed up" during their fight in his office in Revenge of the Sith. Why couldn't he have? He wasn't pressed against the wall -- that was Sidious.



Mace Windu muses in Shatterpoint that his mastery of the Force is next to nothing when compared to Yoda and that his raw power is nothing compared to Anakin Skywalker. He also muses inferiority when compared to Kar Vastor, who is considered by Nick Rostu (and then confirmed by the narrator), to be considerably weaker than a suited Darth Vader.

Like it or not, Windu does not compare, at all, to Sidious in Force mastery. I'm curious how you think that Dooku, who is more powerful than Mace (while not being necessarily the greater swordsmen) will somehow go down to Yoda before Mace would go down to Sidious.

if mace was attacked with lightning, gideon, physics tells you, that the force that almost overwhelmed him in ROTS would be reduced by a factor of the nth root (i can look up the formula if you want, tho tonight, i've got a wedding to get to) for every distance n that mace backed up. Its how electromagnetic fields work. And an electromagnetic field is the only thing that would be causing Mace's lightsaber to be pushed back towards him as recorded in the ROTS novelization. Electrity simply doesn't push things. Electromagnetic fields do. I'm not taking it back.


oh, and to your final point. Windu and sidious already fought. It wasn't a short duel, and Sidious didn't eliminate Mace with the force. (at all, beginning, middle or end) why would it be such a short duel this time? that makes no sense.

oh, and i already said mace didn't back-up because he was tryign to keep sidious in length of his saber. That's why he closed the gap so quickly after sidious initially loses HIS saber.

Originally posted by truejedi
if mace was attacked with lightning, gideon, physics tells you, that the force that almost overwhelmed him in ROTS would be reduced by a factor of the nth root (i can look up the formula if you want, tho tonight, i've got a wedding to get to) for every distance n that mace backed up. Its how electromagnetic fields work. And an electromagnetic field is the only thing that would be causing Mace's lightsaber to be pushed back towards him as recorded in the ROTS novelization. Electrity simply doesn't push things. Electromagnetic fields do. I'm not taking it back.

You don't have to take it back. Your contention is that "LOLZ SIDIOUS CANT KILL WINDU BECAUSE WINDU CAN BACK UP AND THAT IS WHAT PHYSICS SAY HAHAHA!" which is entirely flimsy.

Like it or not, Palpatine is more powerful, and by a considerable margin. Deal with it.

i have never said mace is superior to sidious, and you know this, and its ridiculous to act like i don't. My point is: Mace would NOT be limited to using only the force if attacked through the force by Sidious. if, in a 1 on 1 duel, why should it go ANY differently than the duel we already see in ROTS. Thats what isn't making sense to me. Its been fought. If sidious could kill mace with the force, in the middle of a saber duel, my contention he would have done so.
Why do you think he was so merciful to mace if mace could be removed quickly at any time with a force attack?

Why didn't Obi-Wan crush General Grievous with the Force rather than nearly die in melee combat? Why didn't Count Dooku WTFpwn Anakin Skywalker along with Obi-Wan? Why didn't Darth Vader use the Force to destroy Obi-Wan aboard the first Death Star?

Just because they didn't doesn't mean that they couldn't.

Originally posted by Gideon
Why didn't Obi-Wan crush General Grievous with the Force rather than nearly die in melee combat? Why didn't Count Dooku WTFpwn Anakin Skywalker along with Obi-Wan? Why didn't Darth Vader use the Force to destroy Obi-Wan aboard the first Death Star?

Just because they didn't doesn't mean that they couldn't.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence? I'm disappointed in you Gideon. The KMC SWVF hold you in such high regard.

1. Obi doesn't use offensive Force attacks to incapacitate. As Mace would say: 'Its not in his character.'
2. Dooku WTFpwnd Skywalker with a giant conference table at the beginning of his fight- later he was busy fighting a total 'force shutdown.'
3. Vader had something to prove. He had to show Kenobi that he was superior, especially after the way the fight went on Mustafar.


If I was a more vindictive person, I would say that because Suit-Vader's potential/power < Pre-suit Anakin, and by your own argument Anakin 'couldn't overpower Kenobi in the force push duel' then Old Ben must be more of a challenge than Vader wanted on the Death Star. But I'm not going to say that.

(Do you see the logical fallacy?)

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Absence of proof is not proof of absence? I'm disappointed in you Gideon. The KMC SWVF hold you in such high regard.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, it's not a fallacy. If there were particular reasons why it didn't happen, I'd concede. But that isn't the case.



He aggressively hurled General Grievous across the hangar during the initial part of the fight. Why did he not during their brawl where he nearly died?



The movie showed us the entire fight and it didn't happen.



And humilating him by a serious and quick beatdown with the Force wouldn't have done better?



Because pre-suit Anakin's mastery of the Force doesn't compare to suited-Vader's.



Committed by you? Yes. All of them.

Originally posted by Gideon
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, it's not a fallacy. If there were particular reasons why it didn't happen, I'd concede. But that isn't the case.
I never said it was a fallacy, I just said it was a weak argument. And there are reasons why it didn't happen.


Originally posted by Gideon

He aggressively hurled General Grievous across the hangar during the initial part of the fight. Why did he not during their brawl where he nearly died?

Movie > novelization. In the movie Kenobi looked like he was handling the General easily. He never 'almost died'.


Originally posted by Gideon

The movie showed us the entire fight and it didn't happen. Didn't Anakin get floored? Oh well- my bad.


Originally posted by Gideon

And humilating him by a serious and quick beatdown with the Force wouldn't have done better?
Because Kenobi didn't defeat him with the force, quite frankly, no. He needed to prove that he'd surpassed Kenobi in Saber ability. If he did it some other way, he wouldn't have proved himself.


Originally posted by Gideon

Because pre-suit Anakin's mastery of the Force doesn't compare to suited-Vader's. Very good. You did it!


Originally posted by Gideon

Committed by you? Yes. All of them.

I made one during the 'if I was..." portion. One =/= 'them'. Singular. I even pointed it out for you.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I never said it was a fallacy, I just said it was a weak argument. And there are reasons why it didn't happen.

A weak argument? The facts say that Palpatine is a better Force user. That he didn't crush him with the Force in one duel isn't a weak argument since we have numerous examples of these discrepencies.



I know you're going to equate this to me having a problem with those who disagree with me, but I'm beginning to become annoyed by you, because it seems all you do is try to disagree with me. And when you do, you have no point.

The novelization actually depicts Obi-Wan doing far better than he actually did against the General. And I'm referring to their brawl at the very end, where he was beaten and nearly hurled off of a cliff. Why did he not use the Force, then?



He was already better than Kenobi in lightsaber combat. Point moot.

There you go. All three points shot down.

Originally posted by Gideon
A weak argument? The facts say that Palpatine is a better Force user. That he didn't crush him with the Force in one duel isn't a weak argument since we have numerous examples of these discrepencies.

I actually wasn't referring to Palpatine there, just the three examples that you posted. I agree with you 100% though. Palpatine is a better force user.
Originally posted by Gideon

I know you're going to equate this to me having a problem with those who disagree with me, but I'm beginning to become annoyed by you, because it seems all you do is try to disagree with me. And when you do, you have no point.
For this morning, at least, that is perfectly valid. I got done with a huge test so I thought I'd troll some nerds (no offense- I'm a nerd too.) As far as the other times I've disagreed, it has usually been because your points were counter-intuitive, not because they were incorrect.
Originally posted by Gideon

The novelization actually depicts Obi-Wan doing far better than he actually did against the General. And I'm referring to their brawl at the very end, where he was beaten and nearly hurled off of a cliff. Why did he not use the Force, then?
Even in the movie, I never got the idea that Kenobi had any problems, until he tried to kick the General. Then he was thrown for a loop, and if you notice, is thrown off the edge soon after that. My explanation is that he simply didn't think that he needed to use the Force to win, and then once he did need it, he was too busy trying not to get a face full of Force Pike to use it offensively.


Originally posted by Gideon

He was already better than Kenobi in lightsaber combat. Point moot.

There you go. All three points shot down.
From his point of view, (I would contend) he needed a solid, legitimate victory with a saber to prove that to himself. He is a lot cooler headed now, and needs to know for sure that he can beat Kenobi. That is the same reason that he dueled Maul's resurrection rather than tool the Sith Acolytes and Maul with the force.

I don't disagree that there are examples of PIS in the mythos, but I would hesitate to call these PIS.

Originally posted by truejedi
i have never said mace is superior to sidious, and you know this, and its ridiculous to act like i don't. My point is: Mace would NOT be limited to using only the force if attacked through the force by Sidious. if, in a 1 on 1 duel, why should it go ANY differently than the duel we already see in ROTS. Thats what isn't making sense to me. Its been fought. If sidious could kill mace with the force, in the middle of a saber duel, my contention he would have done so.
Why do you think he was so merciful to mace if mace could be removed quickly at any time with a force attack?
Hm, how could Sidious convert Anakin to the Dark Side standing over four Jedi Master's corpses, he'd look like the evil one, rather than Mace overpowering a defensless weak old man. With him 'struggling' against Mace he could force Anakin to make his decision then, and didn't have time to make a concious decision he had to choose his wife and his lifetime mentor, or a Jedi Master who doesn't trust him, and who Anakin got verbally pwnd by.

this is an old debate. Mace beat sidious in the intitial part of their debate. Period. End of debate. It was a fair fight, and it was an all-out fight. Show me one source that says otherwise, and you will have an argument. All you have now is your supposition and you reasoning that sidious is stronger in the force so mace shouldn't win. What their duel did prove actually is that mace is a better duelist.

Gideon, i ask you again, just as i asked you before, and you didn't answer. Why should their duel go down any differently in this thread than in the movie? You ascertain that Sidious would fry mace with the force. Putting aside the fact that i disagree with you, and ignoring that for the moment, Why would he? as you said yourself just now, just because something didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. Sidious didn't attack mace with the force before when given the opportunity. Why would he do so now? Thats the crux of my argument. Why would he go all out trying to fry mace or w/e force attack he used, if he didn't before?

oh, and the ignoring the disagreement over sidious level of superiority over maces is now unpaused:

Sidious is > mace with the force. No question. However, just because a being is superior in the force doesn't mean they are superior enough to destroy the opponent without using their lightsaber. Obi-wan, Dooku, AOTC. Dooku was clearly superior to Obi-wan, attacked him with the force, and failed to breach his defenses, so then attacked him with a lightsaber. You have yet to prove that Sidious is far enough past Mace in the force to simply overwhelm any force defenses mace might have regardless. Superior? Yes. THAT SUPERIOR? speculation. (since, sadly, we never see sidious do exactly that(though you suppose he could))

This is not intended to be a personal attack, but your response indicates a complete ignorance of what the versus forum is all about. Unless there is a specific, quantifiable reason for a certain action not being performed, we must assume that it can be done. For example, Darth Sidious never displays the ability to telekinetically throttle someone throughout the whole of canon. If we apply your logic, it would mean that Sidious is incapable of the relatively simple feat of Force choke, even though Darth Vader instinctually grasps the concept on his very first day on the job. There is no reason or cited limitation that prevents Darth Sidious from Force choking someone, but he has never done so in the whole of canon.

Meanwhile, Darth Bandon has never displayed the ability to summon hyperspace wormholes like the Emperor. Does that mean that he can somehow do it? No, we mustn't assume so, since the ability to create a Force Storm requires an extraordinary knowledge of the dark side and extraordinary control and he hasn't exhibited the requisite strength to summon such techniques.

That Darth Sidious did not use the Force against Mace Windu before or during their lightsaber duel does not, for a second, mean that he is incapable of doing so. Mace Windu's own musings indicate that he is of the opinion that he is relatively weak compared to Master Yoda, Kar Vastor, or Anakin (in Skywalker's case, raw power). By standard feats alone, he does not demonstrate the same strength in the Force, either. Even his mastery of the unique Vaapad lightsaber form, he is not afforded protection, immunity, or superior strength compared to Darth Sidious in Force mastery or aptitude. Kar Vastor, someone who is considerably stronger than Windu in the Force, is likewise inferior to Darth Vader, who is weaker than the Emperor.

Your citation of Dooku's duel with Kenobi is not relevant here. Dooku was unable to breach Obi-Wan's defenses with Force lightning due to Kenobi's lightsaber. Telekinesis =/= lightning and a lightsaber does not protect a Force user from telekinesis. Moreover, Count Dooku's Force lightning is not the same as Darth Sidious's lightning.

so then you are saying, in your honest opinion, that at any time in his duel with windu, he could have picked him up and thrown him out the window himself? Would this go for any force user at or below mace's skill level? Using the force to attack with takes concentration gideon. Concentration sidious was not afforded in his duel with windu BECAUSE they were using lightsabers. Sure, if mace and sidious stood ten feet apart, and sidious bombarded Mace with TK, maybe, i dunno, chuck a few senate pods his direction. It might work, i'll give you that. But could sidious get enough concentration while fighting off a superior saber duelist to deliver such an attack.

(and as for the comment about the purpose of the SWVF, my point was valid. The whole point was, if he could have, he would have, because he was trying to win.) I was not saying, he could have, he just didn't.

finally, TK seems an easier force attack to block than sidious's lightning, so i think that saying Mace coudl defend against his lightning, but not his TK is ignoring the fact that COUNTLESS jedi and sith have demonstrated an ability to block TK attacks. (obi-wan, the weakest link in force defense that we know of as an example off the top of my head)

In POD, blocking TK attacks is described as one of the first things learned by beginning sith. I would think a jedi of Mace's stature would know the technique as well. Saying that mace can't block a TK attack because he never demonstrated it, is the SAME as saying that sidious can't force choke. Both are obviously not true. Once again, then it falls to :is sidious strong enough in the force to overpower mace's TK defense, and utterly take him out, while fighting a distracting lightsaber duel with a superior saber duelist, and before Yoda can kill dooku."

It took 40 seconds for Dooku to try to flee in his duel with yoda, in which he started out believing he was superior.

Can sidious take out mace in that time, even with an all-out force attack? You decide. I watched them duel once. mace won. I'll take him as the favorite.

We're done. I give up. I'm tired of doing this.

it really comes down to intepretation anyway... we've both stated our sides pretty clearly. what would be the point of continuing?
apparently more people agree with you, according to the pole anyway, so looking at both sides of it is worth something i suppose.