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All Out

Location: Death Star where Luke fought Vader.

Sidious is the audience.

I don't think Luke had enough actual saber fighting experience to take on Maul. I say he goes down. Vader was much slower and not at his peak and it took Luke awhile to get the best of him.

search button is your friend.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=470339&highlight=rotj+luke+vs+maul+forumid%3A86

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
search button is your friend.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=470339&highlight=rotj+luke+vs+maul+forumid%3A86

You are right my friend there many good points even though they only amount to opinions.

1. This thread has been done before.
2. Darth Maul wins everytime.
3. ROTJ Vader was at his peak and could've killed Luke if he wanted.

actually, ROTJ Vader was not at his peak... if he ever had a peak after getting put in the suit, it probably would have been around TFU, or possible closer to RODV (any suited vader material in-between i'm missing?)

Anything post-ANH is not peak Vader, as he gets his hand cut off (again) by the Emperor for failing to stop the first Death Star from being destroyed.

Yeah, that's right. That's my logic for saying he's not at his peak.

Originally posted by truejedi
actually, ROTJ Vader was not at his peak... if he ever had a peak after getting put in the suit, it probably would have been around TFU, or possible closer to RODV (any suited vader material in-between i'm missing?) Why would he decline? Do you mean in Saber skills or in Force power?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Anything post-ANH is not peak Vader, as he gets his hand cut off (again) by the Emperor for failing to stop the first Death Star from being destroyed. Are you being serious or joking?

No, I was serious. It actually happens.

Proof? Source?

Never heard that before.

Vader vs. Luke was like Dooku vs. Anakin. They were playing for keeps and each Sith gave it there all and lost. Luke beat him legitimately. But Luke still would not defeat Maul.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Vader vs. Luke was like Dooku vs. Anakin. They were playing for keeps and each Sith gave it there all and lost. Luke beat him legitimately. But Luke still would not defeat Maul.

I can't say I agree with this at all. Especially the implication that Vader in his later age was inferior to Maul somehow, or that Maul is so radically different from Vader that he would own Luke, but Vader would not have such a chance.

Speaking from a movie viewer's perspective, the fights were mirrors of each other for a good reason, and in both cases the older, superior fights mocked and gave ground before the younger fights solely for the purpose of converting them to the Dark Side, not "giving it their all". Vader sure as hell didn't have any problems getting up after Luke was done mashing on him like a demented Hammer Bros. goon. Giving it their all would have been Vader force choking Luke like the ***** he was and then throwing him into the reactor shaft.

Darth Maul's saber skills and speed are superior to OT Darth Vader's.

I'm just curious if there's a decent argument to back that up, or did I simply not get the memo?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'm just curious if there's a decent argument to back that up, or did I simply not get the memo?

Sure.

In Resurrection (set in the same year or just after A New Hope) Darth Maul is resurrected by the Prophets of the Dark Side and battles Darth Vader. They're on even footing duel-wise for a while, going back and forth. Vader manages to cut his saberstaff in two - but instead of one side going out like in The Phantom Menace, both ends stay active and Maul switches to Jar'Kai, and absolutely dominates Vader.

Vader has to resort to stabbing himself through the chest, damaging his own life support system and almost killing himself, in order to hit and kill Maul.

Vader didn't use the Force in that duel.

By the way, Dooku went all out against Skywalker. He decides that Sidious could "more easily come up with a new plan than a new apprentice."

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
By the way, Dooku went all out against Skywalker. He decides that Sidious could "more easily come up with a new plan than a new apprentice."

Is this more BS from the novelization?

I wouldn't put it that way, but it is a fact from the novelization, yes.

Hard to say. From what I've seen in TPM, Maul had more skill than Luke. Luke may be able to win the fight but it would be close.

Originally posted by DolX1
Hard to say. From what I've seen in TPM, Maul had more skill than Luke. Luke may be able to win the fight but it would be close.

This would be far from close. Luke has what? Three years of training?
Edit: He finished his Jedi training, but had little experience in saber duels.

Darth Maul was one of the most highly trained Sith apprentices in history. He beat Qui-Gon Jinn while wounded, and Qui-Gon was one of the most skilled swordsmen in the Order, challenging even Mace Windu.

Maul stomps Luke.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I wouldn't put it that way, but it is a fact from the novelization, yes.

The Episode III novelization is the most contradictory and hyperbole-filled piece of EU literature to be found besides something about Boba Fett. If something in it could be further substantiated with a source that doesn't maim the most-anticipated movie in the series, I'm all ears. But that book plain sucks. And it happens to find its way lovingly into the arguments of people who really, really like to take it more seriously than the movie its based on, which baffles me.

Even the official script and movie don't indicate half of the conclusions Stover drew in that book.

Stover worked with GL on the plot, and GL approved the entire thing. It wasn't delegated to a lackey or underling, he approved everything. If you just don't like Stover, just say so, but I loved the book. The duel with Dooku was among the best written fights I've ever read. (in a SW book)

Actually, I thought Shatterpoint was perhaps one of the best Clone Wars novels besides Dark Rendezvous. I don't hate Stover. I'm just baffled as to why his version of the story is so skewed compared to other literature and bordering on Anakin/Sidious posturing. It also turns Dooku into an idiot, a racist, and other things which aren't attributed to him in any other EU or movie sources. I had some other issues with it previously, but I don't recollect them all.

Also, the official LFL stance on canon policy states that the movie source is higher canon than the novelizations, and only stuff coming directly from GL in these books is canon, whereas anything else is considered C-canon and subject to author interpretation. Obviously, GL didn't choose the wording for the entire book or he would have written it. To date, GL hasn't written a single word in SW lore except for his own personal reference work and the scripts.

If you need the exact quote indicating this canon policy, I'll dig it up and elaborate further. But my problem with the RotS novelization is that while it makes for a great storytelling adventure (Stover is a good writer overall, despite his histrionic side) it makes serious hash of established characters and blatantly doesn't follow things shown in the movies, particularly in fight scenes. This renders it questionable.

The same thing applies for AotC and TPM novelizations, but those don't get quoted as heavily so I don't have problems with those.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sure.

In Resurrection (set in the same year or just after A New Hope) Darth Maul is resurrected by the Prophets of the Dark Side and battles Darth Vader. They're on even footing duel-wise for a while, going back and forth. Vader manages to cut his saberstaff in two - but instead of one side going out like in The Phantom Menace, both ends stay active and Maul switches to Jar'Kai, and absolutely dominates Vader.

Vader has to resort to stabbing himself through the chest, damaging his own life support system and almost killing himself, in order to hit and kill Maul. Prove that the "resurrected" Maul had skills equal to those of the original, please. Are we told specifically that he is the original brought back to life, or just a clone?

Originally posted by Tangible God
Vader vs. Luke was like Dooku vs. Anakin. They were playing for keeps and each Sith gave it there all and lost. Luke beat him legitimately. But Luke still would not defeat Maul.

Say hello to my little friends (quotes)

"time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me. Who had Luke been kidding?.......

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And there was a further matter. In his battles with Darth Vader and the Emperor, Luke felt he had never truly tested his powers to the limits. Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive. Yet Luke had no illusions that Gethzerion would be so lenient."

Chee's stated that what doesn't contradict-narrations, character thoughts and the like- are in. And Lucas himself personally line edited it and approved it.

That's as official as you can really get

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
By the way, Dooku went all out against Skywalker. He decides that Sidious could "more easily come up with a new plan than a new apprentice."

Thank you, sir.

I don't know why this concept is so difficult for some people to understand. Every single source imaginable has confirmed the notion that Dooku's feat was legitimate in every way; multiple databank entires confirm that the Count was "overpowered" or "outmaneuvered," the novelization mentions it, the script doesn't mention restraint on Dooku's part, George Lucas has stated in the commentary that the goal was to test Anakin's power -- "which he proves by killing Dooku" -- it is mentioned in The Making of Revenge of the Sith, it is mentioned in Labyrinth of Evil as a legitimate duel that Dooku would "treat as though it were his crowning achievement" and Dooku himself was aware that he was being 'tested' by Sidious (confirmed by both the RotS novelization and RoDV), though obviously he truly deluded himself into believing that Sidious would save his ass should he lose.

The logic is simple. Dooku felt that he had things under control, goaded Skywalker to murder, and was simply unable to do anything about it. Why people contest this issue so much, I have no idea. Especially when those very same people will fight to the death that Mace's victory over Sidious was legitimate and a sign of superiority, even though there is as much (if not moreso) implication that Sidious restrained himself as well.

In fact, the only evidence that Dooku was holding back was that the end product was to be a capture by Skywalker.

Later:

This refers to Kenobi- he wants it done quicly.


Later it talks about how his mastery of swordplay, decades of combat experience, vast wealth, political influence, 'impeccable' breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste are all irrelevant. This was all that Dooku was. The totality of his life was unable to overcome Anakin's power.

Originally posted by Faunus
Prove that the "resurrected" Maul had skills equal to those of the original, please. Are we told specifically that he is the original brought back to life, or just a clone?

I don't want to. In fact, I'd love to argue the resurrected Maul was less than the original. If it was a clone, it wouldn't have had the combat experience the original did. If it was a resurrected Maul, it would've been really, really rusty.



Janus, that sig is hilarious.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't want to. In fact, I'd love to argue the resurrected Maul was less than the original. If it was a clone, it wouldn't have had the combat experience the original did. If it was a resurrected Maul, it would've been really, really rusty. Then it can't be used as an accurate gauge of Maul's skill relative to Vader's.

Careful, Nemesis. You thought I was a prick; you keep it up and you'll deal with the collective wrath of the pro-Dooku aggregation, and they're vicious.

Meanwhile, I don't understand why anyone complains about the duel and its outcome or Revenge of the Sith's novelization. The only things I can fault Stover for are his abuse of italics (constantly putting emphasis on every third word) and his habitual dive into philosophy at the expense of the action. There were no real details in Yoda's fight with Sidious, for example, which was (on the grand scale), the most important clash in the trilogy. Instead it was "blah blah blah, Yoda can't win this fight because we need His Majesty for the next three movies." It was completely boring.

But the rest? Oh, it was the second greatest book bar Dark Rendezvous. Stover managed to:

- write General Grievous an utter badass, unlike the movie, making him the Third Most Badass Character in the Saga.
- write Anakin's fall as believable and much more tragic.
- write superior dialogue than the film.
- improve upon most of the fight scenes. Sidious's defeat of the three Jedi who attempted to arrest him with Mace was due to a legitimate distraction and manipulation, not him just steamrolling through them.
- give us a deeper understanding of the characters.

So it made Dooku a racist? Hell, it doesn't surprise me. Contrary to the whole idea that Dooku is an "anti-hero" or "honorable", he's not. He's a mass murdering elitist prick. Is he conflicted? Sure. Is he as evil as Palpatine, Tarkin, or Grievous (SW's Triumvirate of Assholes)? No. But he is evil. Did it make him an idiot? No. Jesus Christ, I don't see where anyone would get that. It just made him a pawn. Which is what he was. From day ****ing one. You get that from the movie, comic, databank, any source you care to mention.

Anakin/Sidious posturing? Theirs is the relationship that drives the movie and the saga. Anakin's a prodigy and is ridiculously talented. Established from day one in all media. Sidious is a genius and uses everyone. Also established from day one in all media. I don't get it. Is it because they get a lot of screentime? They're the main characters. Dooku? Not so much.

Originally posted by Faunus
Then it can't be used as an accurate gauge of Maul's skill relative to Vader's.

Unless you're going to make the case that the resurrected Maul was better than the original - yes - it can.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Unless you're going to make the case that the resurrected Maul was better than the original - yes - it can.

He doesn't have to.

Originally posted by Gideon
He doesn't have to.

I must still be hungover - can you elaborate?

Originally posted by Enyalus
I must still be hungover - can you elaborate?

He doesn't have to make the case that the "clone" was better than the original. If your contention that we can gauge Vader's skills relative to Maul's based off of his duel with the "clone," then it is your burden to prove.

I personally don't think that a case can be made for any idea. Everything about it is totally ambiguous.

Nihilism much? Existential angst? Whatever it is, fix it.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Nihilism much? Existential angst? Whatever it is, fix it. I've got just the tool he needs: Jesus. Find him, and all your troubles will disappear in a sea of obedience.

Funny, that's my answer when my friends find Nietzsche. I find Jebus. Then they have to hit me, because I'm so blatantly anti-Semitic as a Christian. I've never lasted longer than 5 minutes with him inside of my heart. People tend to throw things at me/us.

Originally posted by Gideon
He doesn't have to make the case that the "clone" was better than the original. If your contention that we can gauge Vader's skills relative to Maul's based off of his duel with the "clone," then it is your burden to prove.

Except it's not clear that's it was a clone. The title of the arc, afterall, is called 'Resurrection.' And its referenced several times during the story. So for all intensive purposes, yeah - Maul was outdueling Vader.

Is that story even canon?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Except it's not clear that's it was a clone. The title of the arc, afterall, is called 'Resurrection.' And its referenced several times during the story. So for all intensive purposes, yeah - Maul was outdueling Vader. The burden of proof is on you to quantify the gap (or lack of) between Maul and whatever was featured in Resurrection. It's really that simple. Find me a line that says the being Vader fought was in fact the original man, and we can go from there. Otherwise, it's a completely different scenario.

Originally posted by Faunus
The burden of proof is on you to quantify the gap (or lack of) between Maul and whatever was featured in Resurrection. It's really that simple. Find me a line that says the being Vader fought was in fact the original man, and we can go from there. Otherwise, it's a completely different scenario.

Unless someone is going to say, "Resurrected Maul was better than Original Maul" then there isn't any point. Either he's like the original, which means his saber skills > Vader. Or he's inferior by X degree, which means that original Maul's saber skills >>> Vader.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Unless someone is going to say, "Resurrected Maul was better than Original Maul" then there isn't any point. Either he's like the original, which means his saber skills > Vader. Or he's inferior by X degree, which means that original Maul's saber skills >>> Vader. You're not getting it.

We don't know what that thing was. It could've been better trained than the original - thirty-two years had passed since Maul's death - or simply retrained and improved, if it in fact was the original who was actually "resurrected." We know absolutely nothing about the origins of the creature, so we cannot definitively state that it was better, equal to, or worse than Vader. That's all there is to it.

But if you press the issue? Fine. I say that the thing might be better than the original, and then we're back to square one. They're separate entities.

Whatever.

Darth Maul beats ROTJ Luke. 8/10.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Is that story even canon?

That's the only post TPM story that Maul is featured in that is canon.

Originally posted by Faunus
We don't know what that thing was. It could've been better trained than the original - thirty-two years had passed since Maul's death - or simply retrained and improved, if it in fact was the original who was actually "resurrected." We know absolutely nothing about the origins of the creature, so we cannot definitively state that it was better, equal to, or worse than Vader. That's all there is to it.

Okay, I let this slide too easily the other night, because I wasn't feeling well. Let's start the debunking.

First Premise: The Darth Maul shown in Resurrection is actually Darth Maul, resurrected, and not a clone or somekind of other creature.

Evidence from the comic to support this:

Vader comments early in the story, "I sense something...familiar... Darth Maul?"

One of the Prophets confronts Vader, telling him: "We took it upon ourselves to resurrect a proper apprentice for the Master...it was a tragedy when Maul died at the hands of a Jedi. Now he lives again...Maul will prove himself by slaying you. The Emperor will be pleased."

Continuing, he goads Vader further: "Of course you could refuse the duel and attempt to destroy all of us here and now. You might even succeed. But such a deed would diminish you in the Emperor's eyes, would it not? And you would always wonder. Doubt would always nag at you. You could never be certain whether Darth Maul was your better...unless you take up the challenge. So...will you face him?"

When they first engage in the duel:
'Vader: Maul is dead! You are a sham!
Maul: No..'

Maul even quotes Sidious' teachings twice, saying, "Never break a fall. If you are prepared to break your fall, you are prepared for the fall itself. Sith do not fall....There is no pain where strength lies."

Speaking just amongst themselves while they are watching the duel, one of the Prophets states: "They are more evenly matched than we suspected. But Maul will be victorious. He is an engine of pure hate. This other...there's too much light in him."

Maul himself confirms it while fighting Vader. He taunts him with, "How will you defeat me? I slew Obi-Wan's master. And Obi-Wan...slew you!"

And at the end of the comic, when Vader is giving his report to Palpatine, Vader seems convinced, albeit pretty confused: "They had recreated Darth Maul. I don't know how."

And from Leland Chee's blog, which also confirms it's canonicity: "A version of Darth Maul is back long enough to have a Maul vs. Vader showdown."

Thus, that's nine pieces of evidence supporting my view that it was actually Darth Maul fighting Vader, and not some clone or other creature.

Second Premise: Maul's saber skills are superior to Vader's (who is basically at his OT peak, as this takes place just after A New Hope.)

Evidence from the comic to support this:

Well, let's look at how the fight played out. Maul first gets in a kick to the face, backhanded punch to the face, a lightsaber slash across the ribcage, another kick to the face, and then finally Vader is able to land something remotely effective - cutting Maul's saberstaff in half. But geez, that was a bad move in actuality, because what next we see, immediately afterwards is Maul then goes Jar'Kai, disarms Vader and then slashes him across the head. He's got him, essentially, dead in the water...but decides to taunt and gloat over him before finishing him off. Vader uses this time to summon his lightsaber to him just as Maul is coming in for the coup de grace and ignites it through himself, thus impaling Maul as well. This was the only strike Darth Vader landed against Darth Maul.

Furthermore, for those who wanted to say that Vader wasn't using the Force in their duel, and thus wasn't going "all out," that would be incorrect. Early on in the duel, he uses the Force to pick up two dead stormtrooper blasters and fire repeatedly at Maul. Maul blocks the shots with ease and then Force-pushes them into the lava below. Later on, Maul decides to cut the cables to the bridge they are dueling on, both falling to the lava below. Luckily, though, both land on small stone slabs. Vader attempts to either Force Grip or Force Crush the stone slab Maul is standing on, thus ending the duel. Maul, however, doesn't let him get off so easily - he jumps off the doomed rock and does a Matrix-style running on the walls of the lava/cave, taunting Vader to come after him if he can.

And thus, from the comic - it is clear that Maul's saber skills were superior to Darth Vader's.

Premises 1 & 2 are true, unless you find me some evidence stating otherwise. I've given you primary source evidence showing differently.

Originally posted by Faunus
But if you press the issue? Fine. I say that the thing might be better than the original, and then we're back to square one.

Better than the original. Okay. That would be an assertion of yours which is not evident, and thus your burden to prove. So, tell me how. I need valid reasons, backed up with source material stating such. How would a recently resurrected Darth Maul be better than the original? What knowledge and training has he gained that makes him superior to the one killed in 32 BBY?

I understand that the evidence I used making my first point you probably didn't have when you said the above...so it's okay to concede. The major point is that all sources point to Maul being resurrected, and it not being a clone or some 'separate entity.' If someone wants to make the claim that it was...good luck.



EDIT: Hey, man...I miss the godly power. Can I go back to being your avatar?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Premises 1 & 2 are true, unless you find me some evidence stating otherwise. I've given you primary source evidence showing differently.I just wanted to know if it was the same person; you've proven that irrefutably. It was never my contention that Vader was better than the "new" Maul, but I wasn't aware of there actually being any proof that he was indeed the original.

After that? Yes sir.

*brands Enyalus's forehead; you bristle with power*

I'd do the happy dance, but that would be very un-Sithlike.

I'm gonna have to go fry some rancors instead.