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No weapons, no powers...pure slugfest. Who wins?

Punisher- too tough for Scott to handle

Originally posted by Starscream M
No weapons, no powers...pure slugfest. Who wins?
Cyclop will beat Punisher in h2h combat, Cyclop has already know how fight, but after losing his leadership to the X-men from Storm. He trained in Judo and blind fighting against Thugs.

Punisher know how to fight thanks to his government training, after his family death he used that training including his guns to maul down criminal and crime lords, but take away his guns, he doesn't stand a chance against Cyclop who trained to fight enhanced mutants and villains.

Originally posted by BUSTER1
Punisher- too tough for Scott to handle
What means he tougher? His family die? boo hoo, Scott has to witness children slaughter and die under a bomb attack. He was their guardian. MAN UP

7/10 Cyclops h2h

Cyclops is IMO a more skilled combatant but Frank has a grocery list of other advantages. He has a strength and weight advantage, he fights dirty, really dirty, and overall much more brutal than Cyclops, and most importantly he has demi-god like damage soak. Short of killing him there is no sure way to put Frank down for the count, his durability / damage soak is insane.

Originally posted by vansonbee
Cyclop will beat Punisher in h2h combat, Cyclop has already know how fight, but after losing his leadership to the X-men from Storm. He trained in Judo and blind fighting against Thugs.

Punisher know how to fight thanks to his government training, after his family death he used that training including his guns to maul down criminal and crime lords, but take away his guns, he doesn't stand a chance against Cyclop who trained to fight enhanced mutants and villains.


What means he tougher? His family die? boo hoo, Scott has to witness children slaughter and die under a bomb attack. He was their guardian. MAN UP

7/10 Cyclops h2h

When I said tougher, I was obviously refering to Frank's physical toughness. His ability to take damage is phenomenal. He is also very good at h2h. Too many people make the mistake in thinking that Punisher is just a thug with a gun, and that unarmed, he is helpless. He has held his own against Daredevil, who is way above Cyclops h2h.

Originally posted by BUSTER1
When I said tougher, I was obviously refering to Frank's physical toughness. His ability to take damage is phenomenal. He is also very good at h2h. Too many people make the mistake in thinking that Punisher is just a thug with a gun, and that unarmed, he is helpless. He has held his own against Daredevil, who is way above Cyclops h2h.
You know that was full of pis, standing up against DD.
Did you mean durable standing up against DD?
Any chance you have any scans of his matchup against DD?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cyclops is IMO a more skilled combatant but Frank has a grocery list of other advantages. He has a strength and weight advantage, he fights dirty, really dirty, and overall much more brutal than Cyclops, and most importantly he has demi-god like damage soak. Short of killing him there is no sure way to put Frank down for the count, his durability / damage soak is insane.
Fighting dirty won't help much here, these guys are fighting to win in KMC debate, Cyclop like you said is skill combatant, would put Frank down quickly without exposing himself to potential attacks from Frank.

Punisher for reasons listed above.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He has a strength and weight advantage what kind of strength and weight advantage does Frank have over Cyclops?

Originally posted by Starscream M
what kind of strength and weight advantage does Frank have over Cyclops?

Nothing really and its not enough.

Frank wins this, hes too tough, dirty and experienced for Scott.

Originally posted by vansonbee
You know that was full of pis, standing up against DD.
Did you mean durable standing up against DD?
Any chance you have any scans of his matchup against DD?


I don't have any to hand, but they exist, on the Punisher Resect thread. And pls tell me why its PIS for punisher to stand up to DD. Punisher is highly skilled in h2h, though not on the same level as DD, and both men are not physically superhuman. Punisher like DD has taken on gangs of thugs single handedly, without shooting and beaten them up, without sustaining injury. As I keep saying PUNISHER IS NOT JUST A THUG WITH A GUN

Originally posted by Starscream M
what kind of strength and weight advantage does Frank have over Cyclops?
We don't know that. They are just estimating by artist drawings. awesr

Seriously someone bust out manual hand book of both character weight and strength.

Strength feat scans?

Originally posted by Starscream M
what kind of strength and weight advantage does Frank have over Cyclops? This is coming from the handbook.

Weight: Punisher- 200 lb's Fighting Skills: Punisher: 5
Weight: Cyclops- 185 lb's Fighting Skills: Cyclops: 4

Here at KMC in our "Ranks for MA's" thread we have Punisher 3rd Tier(Highly Skilled Martial Artist) and Cyclops 4th Tier(Trained Martial Artist).

(http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447662&highlight=martial+artist+forumid%3A95)

I think that Cyclops will be out of his element fighting w/o his powers against someone so good. He's so used to having his optic blasts Wheras Frank would be fighting in his element. Yes Cyclops is more skilled then the average punks Punisher deals with but surely Scott isn't an obstacle he can't overcome. This guy has held his own against Daredevil and Captain America at times. Now don't chew me out for saying that, I know what Cap did to him in Civil War and that 9/10 times Daredevil and Punisher fight Daredevil ends up winning. But just saying he has good showings against him. Cyclops has better showings I'm sure. But were they w/ his powers or w/o? I think it would be the latter.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
This is coming from the handbook.

Weight: Punisher- 200 lb's Fighting Skills: Punisher: 5
Weight: Cyclops- 185 lb's Fighting Skills: Cyclops: 4

Here at KMC in our "Ranks for MA's" thread we have Punisher 3rd Tier(Highly Skilled Martial Artist) and Cyclops 4th Tier(Trained Martial Artist).

(http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447662&highlight=martial+artist+forumid%3A95)

I think that Cyclops will be out of his element fighting w/o his powers against someone so good. He's so used to having his optic blasts Wheras Frank would be fighting in his element. Yes Cyclops is more skilled then the average punks Punisher deals with but surely Scott isn't an obstacle he can't overcome. This guy has held his own against Daredevil and Captain America at times. Now don't chew me out for saying that, I know what Cap did to him in Civil War and that 9/10 times Daredevil and Punisher fight Daredevil ends up winning. But just saying he has good showings against him. Cyclops has better showings I'm sure. But were they w/ his powers or w/o? I think it would be the latter.
He did fight both DD and Cap in defeat, but held his own....

Ahhh scott is bit low on that bar, I say best go either way.

Originally posted by vansonbee
He did fight both DD and Cap in defeat, but held his own.... That was the point.

Oh for God's sake not this 50 cent crap again

.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cyclops is IMO a more skilled combatant

LOL first Nightwing is stronger and faster than Blade now this.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL first Nightwing is stronger and faster than Blade now this.

I know, ridiculous isn't it.

.

Featwise, Punisher is better. But Cyclops has defeated Wolverine, he is no chump. Given their history this is close to 50-50.

Originally posted by BUSTER1
Oh for God's sake not this 50 cent crap again

Originally posted by Bentley
But Cyclops has defeated Wolverine, he is no chump. So has Punisher.

Originally posted by Bentley
Featwise, Punisher is better. But Cyclops has defeated Wolverine, he is no chump. Given their history this is close to 50-50.


Cyke didn't defeat Logan in H2H, he just dodged a few attacks. And Logan wasn't himself, he was a animal at the time.

Punisher defeated Wolverine hand to hand? Never heard of that one before but is sure good to know.

It doesn't affect my argument of fifty fifty though.

Originally posted by Bentley
Punisher defeated Wolverine hand to hand? Never heard of that one before but is sure good to know.



No he didn't.........

Well, that makes the argument even more useless than it already was.

Originally posted by Bentley
Featwise, Punisher is better. But Cyclops has defeated Wolverine, he is no chump. Given their history this is close to 50-50.

What incident are you refering to because I know Cyke defeated Wolverine when he wasn't in the right state of mind. Punisher had a good showing against Wolverine after being tired.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
This is coming from the handbook.

Weight: Punisher- 200 lb's Fighting Skills: Punisher: 5
Weight: Cyclops- 185 lb's Fighting Skills: Cyclops: 4

Here at KMC in our "Ranks for MA's" thread we have Punisher 3rd Tier(Highly Skilled Martial Artist) and Cyclops 4th Tier(Trained Martial Artist).

(http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447662&highlight=martial+artist+forumid%3A95)

I think that Cyclops will be out of his element fighting w/o his powers against someone so good. He's so used to having his optic blasts Wheras Frank would be fighting in his element. Yes Cyclops is more skilled then the average punks Punisher deals with but surely Scott isn't an obstacle he can't overcome. This guy has held his own against Daredevil and Captain America at times. Now don't chew me out for saying that, I know what Cap did to him in Civil War and that 9/10 times Daredevil and Punisher fight Daredevil ends up winning. But just saying he has good showings against him. Cyclops has better showings I'm sure. But were they w/ his powers or w/o? I think it would be the latter.

* IMO, Cyclops should be one tier higher...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cyclops is IMO a more skilled combatant but Frank has a grocery list of other advantages. He has a strength and weight advantage, he fights dirty, really dirty, and overall much more brutal than Cyclops, and most importantly he has demi-god like damage soak. Short of killing him there is no sure way to put Frank down for the count, his durability / damage soak is insane.

for once, we're in full agreement lol...

Originally posted by Bentley
Featwise, Punisher is better. But Cyclops has defeated Wolverine, he is no chump. Given their history this is close to 50-50.
No he did not. He was able to dodge a wolverine who was a mental mess........and at the time was not writtin to be the top tier MA he is now.....if that fight happen now a day cyclopes would get destroy easily.

When the hell has scot shown MA skills on the level of Punisher......I think people are serously overestimating scot and vastly underestimating Punisher

Originally posted by Battlehammer
When the hell has scot shown MA skills on the level of Punisher......I think people are serously overestimating scot and vastly underestimating Punisher when has Frank shown any MA skills? Frank fights on instinct moreso than skills...he's a street fighter. Cyclops is much better trained.

Originally posted by Starscream M
when has Frank shown any MA skills? Frank fights on instinct moreso than skills...he's a street fighter. Cyclops is much better trained.
..........that makes no senses.....you do realize that the goal of MA is to have fighting come instinctively......your statement contradicts one another......

scot not a more highly train h2h fight in the least that absurd.

Originally posted by Battlehammer


scot not a more highly train h2h fight in the least that absurd. why not?

Originally posted by Mindset
why not?
what training has he received that is more then Punsiher who has received h2h training in many area of the military including special opts which he excelled at.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
what training has he received that is more then Punsiher who has received h2h training in many area of the military including special opts which he excelled at. military training focuses primarily on weapons/tactics, not CQC.

At least that's what I've been told.


It'd be more likely that Scott would have just as much or more hth training than Frank.

Didn't Scott train hard after he lost the fight to Storm?

He started taking lessons from Wolverine, Beast, Pete, etc.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
what training has he received that is more then Punsiher who has received h2h training in many area of the military including special opts which he excelled at.

Frank has military training. Disarming, lethal holds and blows, stuff like that. Scott has trained in Aikido and something else.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
..........that makes no senses.....you do realize that the goal of MA is to have fighting come instinctively......your statement contradicts one another......

scot not a more highly train h2h fight in the least that absurd.

He fought like six guys blindfolded and won.

Originally posted by Mindset
military training focuses primarily on weapons/tactics, not CQC.

At least that's what I've been told.


It'd be more likely that Scott would have just as much or more hth training than Frank.

Each branch of the military teaches h2h combat. They have master martial artists who come in and teach. Marine have the most advances training and even a normal soldier is taught how to effectivly fight well in h2h. Punisher took a number of advances trainings and special opts which train solider vastly in the area of h2h combat. Punisher was the best.

Not at all. scot a judo practitioner, punisher has far more varsitile training that is used for killing. Oh and Punisher also has done training of other MA styles out side the military which he shown mastery of, one of which is shown in the second to last page of the punisher respect thread.

Originally posted by Cavalier
Didn't Scott train hard after he lost the fight to Storm?

He started taking lessons from Wolverine, Beast, Pete, etc.
beast is not a good fighter and pete nothing special. I not sure scot has ever been trained by wolverine out side little group lesson which is not the same. Now kitty on the other hand is extremely skill in h2h.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Each branch of the military teaches h2h combat. They have master martial artists who come in and teach. Marine have the most advances training and even a normal soldier is taught how to effectivly fight well in h2h. Punisher took a number of advances trainings and special opts which train solider vastly in the area of h2h combat. Punisher was the best.

Not at all. scot a judo practitioner, punisher has far more varsitile training that is used for killing. Oh and Punisher also has done training of other MA styles out side the military which he shown mastery of, one of which is shown in the second to last page of the punisher respect thread.

I don't know where you got your info from, but the krav maga board I go to, that has actual people in the military talking about their experiences, say that they just have general CQC training.

They don't spend a whole lot of time on training them in hth, because since the invention of guns, missles, etc. it hasn't been that important.

Pretty sure Scott knows more than judo

Originally posted by Mindset
I don't know where you got your info from, but the krav maga board I go to, that has actual people in the military talking about their experiences, say that they just have general CQC training.

They don't spend a whole lot of time on training them in hth, because since the invention of guns, missles, etc. it hasn't been that important.

Pretty sure Scott knows more than judo
Krav maga more of an Israeli thing.

Yes they normal soldier recieve basic training however marine recieve greater trainign in h2h then other branches.

However this is only true for basic boot camp. Onces you take advances training as sniper, special opts ect. You recieve vastly more training in h2h. The are trained heavly in h2h combat during training to become a special opts. They also annual recieve training. They are also trained solo to kill, they are not taught to hold back many normal MA styles teach. They also are taught only effective moves.

actaully scot knows only two styles to my knowledge.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Krav maga more of an Israeli thing.

Yes they normal soldier recieve basic training however marine recieve greater trainign in h2h then other branches.

However this is only true for basic boot camp. Onces you take advances training as sniper, special opts ect. You recieve vastly more training in h2h. The are trained heavly in h2h combat during training to become a special opts. They also annual recieve training. They are also trained solo to kill, they are not taught to hold back many normal MA styles teach. They also are taught only effective moves.

actaully scot knows only two styles to my knowledge.

These are American soldiers learning Krav Maga so they can be proficient in CQC.

Again, I don't know where you got this info, do you have a source. I don't really care about this fight, I've just never heard what you're saying from the people I know in the military.

Originally posted by Mindset
These are American soldiers learning Krav Maga so they can be proficient in CQC.

Again, I don't know where you got this info, do you have a source. I don't really care about this fight, I've just never heard what you're saying from the people I know in the military.
From my uncle who a marine for the last 30 years. An my aunt who been the army for the last 20 years. I was also told by an individual who trains Marine's in h2h combat.


both of which said the same thing.

you ever seen fight quest? The mix martial artist stated the military krav maga instructor would kick his ass.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
From my uncle who a marine for the last 30 years. An my aunt who been the army for the last 20 years. I was also told by an individual who trains Marine's in h2h combat.


both of which said the same thing. they lied to you

Originally posted by Battlehammer
you ever seen fight quest? The mix martial artist stated the military krav maga instructor would kick his ass. yea, that's cuz mma is a sport and krav is a military fighting system

that's why im training in krav

Frank would win. More h2h feats and he's done pretty good against several of the best in Marvel. Frank ftw.

~Sado

Originally posted by Mindset
.


It'd be more likely that Scott would have just as much or more hth training than Frank.


Whats that opinion based on?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Whats that opinion based on?

Good question

Punisher in a Stomp .

Frank is a much better natural fighter then Scott.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Whats that opinion based on? http://www.mutanthigh.com/games/martialarts/fight6.html

Originally posted by Mindset
http://www.mutanthigh.com/games/martialarts/fight6.html

i have that issue lol... got it cheap too...

Frank for the considerable majority.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
No he did not. He was able to dodge a wolverine who was a mental mess........and at the time was not writtin to be the top tier MA he is now.....if that fight happen now a day cyclopes would get destroy easily.

* did i read it right? (the underlined phrase)

* correct me if i'm wrong, but Logan is a top tier martial artist because of his huge, horrendous past experience... the Logan who ran scared from Proteus then was no different from the Logan of today, dude...

Originally posted by Cavalier
Didn't Scott train hard after he lost the fight to Storm?

He started taking lessons from Wolverine, Beast, Pete, etc.

* i think not... i think it was implied that Scott only incorporated the fighting styles of his teammates into his own self-defense system and it was done impromtu (and his eyes closed) which makes it very impressive...

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Not at all. scot a judo practitioner, punisher has far more varsitile training that is used for killing. Oh and Punisher also has done training of other MA styles out side the military which he shown mastery of, one of which is shown in the second to last page of the punisher respect thread.

* Scott is not just a judo practitioner... he is a Judo expert and an Aikido expert, meaning he has black belts in those areas...

Originally posted by Mindset
they lied to you
yea becuases you know more about it then two people in the military and a man who trains military officers........

Originally posted by peejayd
* did i read it right? (the underlined phrase)

* correct me if i'm wrong, but Logan is a top tier martial artist because of his huge, horrendous past experience... the Logan who ran scared from Proteus then was no different from the Logan of today, dude...




NO you are mistaken. HE AT THE TIME WAS NOT WRITTEN WITH THE TOP TIER MA ABILTIES HE HAS TODAY.

that was not presented untill much later in the developement of his character

Originally posted by peejayd


* Scott is not just a judo practitioner... he is a Judo expert and an Aikido expert, meaning he has black belts in those areas...
Judo practionaries can be black belts........

I'm still in the middle with this with the slight majority leaning towards Scott, but the winner won't achieve victory easily, that much can be said.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
yea becuases you know more about it then two people in the military and a man who trains military officers........ Apparently.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
you ever seen fight quest? The mix martial artist stated the military krav maga instructor would kick his ass. Blade uses Krav Maga................

Blade is the best martial artist in comics.

Originally posted by Mindset
Blade is the best martial artist in comics. I think Richard Dragon is.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
NO you are mistaken. HE AT THE TIME WAS NOT WRITTEN WITH THE TOP TIER MA ABILTIES HE HAS TODAY.

that was not presented untill much later in the developement of his character

and scott didn't improve at all, right? even with all his constant getting up at 5am and training for hours on end almost every day...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program

Here's how the Marines train these days. The close combat training was this efficient during the Vietnam war.

The special forces had more emphasis on close combat training, but it's not like they practiced a single martial art. They usually practiced individual techniques, they didn't have the time to learn complete styles.

They trained to be efficient, they pretty much knew Krav Maga.

How many characters in comics have used or referenced knowing Krav Maga?

Originally posted by Rhinoceros
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program

Here's how the Marines train these days. The close combat training was this efficient during the Vietnam war.

The special forces had more emphasis on close combat training, but it's not like they practiced a single martial art. They usually practiced individual techniques, they didn't have the time to learn complete styles.

They trained to be efficient, they pretty much knew Krav Maga.

It desnt matter Punisher obvoulsy has martial arts training outside of the military.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
NO you are mistaken. HE AT THE TIME WAS NOT WRITTEN WITH THE TOP TIER MA ABILTIES HE HAS TODAY.

that was not presented untill much later in the developement of his character

* when did Wolverine became a top tier martial artist? so, what makes his skirmishes before? it's still canon, so it's still valid...

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Blade uses Krav Maga................
so does wolverine and he taught it to kitty.

Originally posted by peejayd
* when did Wolverine became a top tier martial artist? so, what makes his skirmishes before? it's still canon, so it's still valid...
lol but there no nearly as impressive if taken into account when they took places.

Punisher

A silly thread. Punisher would beat the hell out of him eventually.

this is a toss up. Cyclops is more skillfull and knows more martial arts. But Frank is a badass. So who knows

Originally posted by Silent Guardian
this is a toss up. Cyclops is more skillfull and knows more martial arts.

Can you prove this?


Originally posted by Silent Guardian
But Frank is a badass. So who knows

Nah man I was under the impression that Frank Castle feats were much better I dont see where the element of the doubt is.

Damn people, Cyke fights some thugs with his eyes close and now some people think he's the next Lady Shiva.

Punisher 8/10

Castle takes the majority. Scott is good, but not that good...

Originally posted by HandOfFate
Damn people, Cyke fights some thugs with his eyes close and now some people think he's the next Lady Shiva.

Punisher 8/10

You know what I mean?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You know what I mean?

Yeah its quite ridiculous-Frank wins 9/10-and thats being generous to Scott

i don't mind either way...

people had to neuter scott to give frank a chance, says more about frank imo...

Meh im not sure I think there has been a Cyclops vs Punisher h2h thread before maybe the thread starter wanted something different.

Hell I didnt even know it was a slugest and I think alot of people think it was h2h.

Wait it's pure slugfest? I thought it was regular h2h fight...

Spite thread, Punisher took several bullets to the chest and kept going.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wait it's pure slugfest? I thought it was regular h2h fight...

Spite thread, Punisher took several bullets to the chest and kept going.

Thats what I thought I think that makes it even worse. Nice nickname...lol

Thanks

Id still like to know why Cyclops is more skilled and knows more martial arts.

why does slugfest not mean pure h2h?

Well I was under the impression slugfest is just punching the shit out of each other, no dodging or blocking just punching the shit out of each other till one drops. Kinda like Sentry and WWh, at any rate there is signifcantly less skill in a slugfest as opposed to h2h.

h2h wouldnt just involve punches, all sorts of stuff. A slugest certainly wouldnt involve throws and chokeholds.

Originally posted by Raoul
why does slugfest not mean pure h2h?

As far as I know, slugfest = punch after punch. I mean, Frank punches Scott and then Scott punches Frank and so on and so on, no dodging, no MA skills, no kicks... am I right?

when i think slugfest, i usually just assume it means pure physical combat with no extra powers (like speed), just reflexes, strength, durability and skill...

need starscream to be more specific...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
As far as I know, slugfest = punch after punch. I mean, Frank punches Scott and then Scott punches Frank and so on and so on, no dodging, no MA skills, no kicks... am I right?

Thats what I thought.


Originally posted by Raoul
when i think slugfest, i usually just assume it means pure physical combat with no extra powers (like speed), just reflexes, strength, durability and skill...

need starscream to be more specific...

Nah man im pretty sure slugfest isnt really skill. I mean skill in punches would be helpful but it would be alot less skilled than a h2h fight.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats what I thought.




Nah man im pretty sure slugfest isnt really skill. I mean skill in punches would be helpful but it would be alot less skilled than a h2h fight.

i just don't see why they have to be seperate, is all...

Originally posted by Raoul
i just don't see why they have to be seperate, is all...

Well ok but it seems that they probably are.....so why is Cyclops more skilled again?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well ok but it seems that they probably are.....so why is Cyclops more skilled again?

did i say he was? honestly, i don't remember saying he was... i might have said it, though...

Originally posted by Raoul
did i say he was? honestly, i don't remember saying he was... i might have said it, though...

Somebody said he was and you agreed....i'll go check.

edit:

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cyclops is IMO a more skilled combatant but Frank has a grocery list of other advantages. He has a strength and weight advantage, he fights dirty, really dirty, and overall much more brutal than Cyclops, and most importantly he has demi-god like damage soak. Short of killing him there is no sure way to put Frank down for the count, his durability / damage soak is insane.





Originally posted by Raoul
for once, we're in full agreement lol...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Somebody said he was and you agreed....i'll go check.

ok...

I edited my post and put quotes heres is the page.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=494699&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I edited my post and put quotes heres is the page.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=494699&pagenumber=2

oh, that, ok...

basically, my way of seeing is that cyclops would be a more technical fighter... he's studied his art forms, and become quite proficient, but he's still more of a MA than a brawler...

frank on the other hand, while well trained, tends to be more into the brawling side of things... not saying he doesn't have more training, i'm just saying he'd apply it differently to how cyclops would... he'd be more willing to fight dirty and so on, and more willing to take a punch if it leaves an opening...

hope that makes some sort of sense...

Originally posted by Raoul
oh, that, ok...

basically, my way of seeing is that cyclops would be a more technical fighter... he's studied his art forms, and become quite proficient, but he's still more of a MA than a brawler...

frank on the other hand, while well trained, tends to be more into the brawling side of things... not saying he doesn't have more training, i'm just saying he'd apply it differently to how cyclops would... he'd be more willing to fight dirty and so on, and more willing to take a punch if it leaves an opening...

hope that makes some sort of sense...

Yeah that does actually. Makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
lol but there no nearly as impressive if taken into account when they took places.

* well, that confuses me... however, the argument still stands that the one Cyclops defeated is still Wolverine and nobody else, right? i'd say as long as it's still canon, it's valid...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah that does actually. Makes perfect sense.

oh, ok, cool...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Can you prove this?




Nah man I was under the impression that Frank Castle feats were much better I dont see where the element of the doubt is.

okay
Originally posted by vansonbee
Cyclop will beat Punisher in h2h combat, Cyclop has already know how fight, but after losing his leadership to the X-men from Storm. He trained in Judo and blind fighting against Thugs.

Punisher know how to fight thanks to his government training, after his family death he used that training including his guns to maul down criminal and crime lords, but take away his guns, he doesn't stand a chance against Cyclop who trained to fight enhanced mutants and villains.


What means he tougher? His family die? boo hoo, Scott has to witness children slaughter and die under a bomb attack. He was their guardian. MAN UP

7/10 Cyclops h2h

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cyclops is IMO a more skilled combatant but Frank has a grocery list of other advantages. He has a strength and weight advantage, he fights dirty, really dirty....

There you go. Personally I'm not a big fan of this. Cyclops is a natural leader, and even though he is an awesome martial artist he is all about the optic blasts. And the same for punisher, he is all about the guns. Without them they are both seriously handicapped.

And cyclops took down wolverine. Punisher did not. Also the villains they fight are really different. Punisher takes on thugs, mobsters and gangsters, Kingpin etc. While Cyclops has tackled everything and much more super-powered foes. Therefore Cyc has more experience.

cyclops is simpy has not proven enough concerning h2h.

punisher FTW

go watch Cyclops in X-men Evolution or check out Wolverine and the X-men episode 12 and tell me his skills are not bad ass. Personally, I feel the fight would not be so one-sided and much closer than everyone is saying.

Originally posted by Silent Guardian
go watch Cyclops in X-men Evolution or check out Wolverine and the X-men episode 12 and tell me his skills are not bad ass. Personally, I feel the fight would not be so one-sided and much closer than everyone is saying. Question:

Have you ever read a comic book? I'm just curious, is all.

Punisher is highly trained, far far more violent, more ruthless, far less principled and much much tougher. He should really batter Scott at least 7/10.

Originally posted by Cavalier
Question:

Have you ever read a comic book? I'm just curious, is all.

yea I have. But I mostly follow Spider-man, Batman, New Avengers, JLA (sometimes), Nightwing, Teen Titants, New blue Bettle. And then I just look at scans. But I have read a few Daredevil, Supergirl, Astonishing X-men, New X-men, Wonderwoman, Superman, Batman, Outsiders and a few others. I'm probably not as big a comic book buff as everyone else here but I am not ignorant.

Originally posted by Warrior18
Punisher is highly trained, far far more violent, more ruthless, far less principled and much much tougher. He should really batter Scott at least 7/10. Been reading X-men lately?

Originally posted by Mindset
Been reading X-men lately?

Just read the final x-men secret invasion issue.
Using Legacy virus to merk the skrulls?
Using a biological weapon against an invading army of fanatical filthy green aliens is hardly unprincipled, ruthless or particularly mean in my book.

Well when I say X-men I guess I mean titles related to X-men.

X-force: Cyclops sending Wolverine out to kill Mystique

Cable: Cyclops having Bishop tortured

Originally posted by Mindset
Well when I say X-men I guess I mean titles related to X-men.

X-force: Cyclops sending Wolverine out to kill Mystique

Cable: Cyclops having Bishop tortured

Lol. Fair play I don't really read X-men that much.

Mystique is a *****. She deserved it.

Again no skin off my nose.

I was really on about their fighting styles and comparing the two in the heat of combat. I wouldn't put it past Frank to try to chew off Scott's face if he was losing.

Originally posted by Silent Guardian
yea I have. But I mostly follow Spider-man, Batman, New Avengers, JLA (sometimes), Nightwing, Teen Titants, New blue Bettle. And then I just look at scans. But I have read a few Daredevil, Supergirl, Astonishing X-men, New X-men, Wonderwoman, Superman, Batman, Outsiders and a few others. I'm probably not as big a comic book buff as everyone else here but I am not ignorant. Fair enough. You seem nice. But you should know, if you keep using the cartoons as evidence (since they're not canonical, they don't count), people will laugh at you.

srug

i don't see cyclops beating frank h2h more often than not, but he's skilled enough, imo, to pick up at least a couple of wins himself...

frank for the majority, but not nearly overwhelmingly so, imo...

Originally posted by Warrior18
Lol. Fair play I don't really read X-men that much.

Mystique is a *****. She deserved it.

Again no skin off my nose.

I was really on about their fighting styles and comparing the two in the heat of combat. I wouldn't put it past Frank to try to chew off Scott's face if he was losing. I'm telling you that Scott will do what it takes to win, his morals aren't what they used to be.

Originally posted by Mindset
I'm telling you that Scott will do what it takes to win, his morals aren't what they used to be.

He's hardly Frank though surely. The guy is boderline psychotic. DD even pointed out that Frank's black and white view of the world is skewed and that he is one of the "crazy people". Meh guess I need to read more X-men.

scott isn't on frank's level of whackery, but he's getting there...

Originally posted by Silent Guardian


There you go. Personally I'm not a big fan of this. Cyclops is a natural leader, and even though he is an awesome martial artist he is all about the optic blasts. And the same for punisher, he is all about the guns. Without them they are both seriously handicapped.

Thats an exaggeration at least with Punisher

Originally posted by Silent Guardian


And cyclops took down wolverine. Punisher did not. Also the villains they fight are really different. Punisher takes on thugs, mobsters and gangsters, Kingpin etc. While Cyclops has tackled everything and much more super-powered foes. Therefore Cyc has more experience.

It mgiht have been stated many times that Wolverine was not in the right state of mind. Punisher had a better showing than Shang Chi did against Wolverine and he was tired at the time.

Punisher has encountered lots of superhumans and currently thats what he does. Im assuming Cykes experince with superhumans is mainly not h2h.

Originally posted by Raoul
scott isn't on frank's level of whackery, but he's getting there...


At any rate hes always been shown to be very tough. Hes not going down without a fight.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
At any rate hes always been shown to be very tough. Hes not going down without a fight.

I believe that neither opponent is going down without a fight. No one gets stomped here.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
At any rate hes always been shown to be very tough. Hes not going down without a fight.

i was talking about their skewed morality...

I still think Cyclops being able to best Wolverine is a good feat. It's obvious he wouldn't beat him in a hand to hand fight, but I'd say he'd be able to hang with him. Wolverine is more skilled, it just depends on whether he plays it safe and goes technical or just tries to punch him.

If you look at real fighters, "skill" is usually a physical trait, instead of technique. What I'm saying is that things like reaction time, the speed of your punches (the aim if to have your arms as relaxed as possible just before the hit. It's all about acceleration). I also think knowing what to do in each situation is a vital part of a match. (What to do soon as you see a punch, there shouldn't be a delay between your thoughts and actions. You can't think for too long for whether to dodge or parry)

It's way more complicated in comics when the fighters know several styles, styles have weaknesses, nerve strikes and such are way more common. Etc

If you "master", let's say Krav Maga in real life, I'd wager you could pretty much hang with anyone, if they're physically similar to you. No matter what they practiced.

Yeah, besting animal-mode Wolverine who just got raped by Proteus is a really high feat Not saying that Cyke isn't a good h2h fighter...

C'mon, Logan was in a fatal shape. His hands were shaking and he was silent for a good amount of time after Proteus-accident. Scott wanted him to shrug off this.


Back on the topic... Punisher wins the slugfest 10/10. If this were standard h2h fight, he'd win perhaps 6-7/10.

No matter what anyone has said- I say Frank without a doubt 9/10 h2h. Slugfest 10/10. He's too tough. Scott won't wilt like a weak flower, but he's up against someone on the same skill level, with much greater durability and who who is used to working alone, as opposed to having a team backing him up.

Originally posted by BUSTER1
Scott won't wilt like a weak flower, but he's up against someone on the same skill level,

Id say pun is more skillful.

Im going with Frank on this one. Hes much more used to mixing it up close and HTH than Scott is, and while Cyclops is highly trained in such fighting himself, Punisher I see as moreso, not to mention more of a fighters will to win at all costs.