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The Presence and The Heart of the Infinite both have God-like powers. But who do you think is more powerful?

The Heart of the Infinite No longer exist. So it certainly wasn't anything close to God's power.

I hope this isnt here to start something. These sort of threads always do. They have been done to death in the past anyways.

PR Beyonder wins.

Originally posted by fangirl101
The Heart of the Infinite No longer exist. So it certainly wasn't anything close to God's power.

Why doesn't it exist anymore?

It went bye-bye after Thanos recreated the Universe.

Wasn't The Heart of the Infinite suppose to be the power of the rest of the entire universe combined and the Presence has basically the power of the entire universe?

So if that's true then to me The Heart of the Infinite would just be a part of the Presence's power correct?
As big a part as all the rest combined but still just a part right?

Originally posted by Entity

Wasn't The Heart of the Infinite suppose to be
the power of the rest of the entire universe combined
and the Presence has basically the power of the entire universe?
THOTI was God's power, the Supreme power of the Marvel Universe.

Thanos became, what the Presence is in DC, that is ... the Supreme being.
Originally posted by Entity

So if that's true
then to me The Heart of the Infinite would just be a part of the Presence's power correct?
As big a part as all the rest combined but still just a part right?
?

The Presence has nothing to do with the HOTI.

Originally posted by Zack Fair

Why doesn't it exist anymore?
Because Thanos erased it from existence,
Thanos was able to this, because he and the HOTI were one.

"If you control a thing ... you can destroy a thing."

Originally posted by Mr Master
Because Thanos erased it from existence,
Thanos was able to this, because he and the HOTI were one.

"If you control a thing ... you can destroy a thing."
If you are one, then how can you destroy the very thing that you are? If you destroy the thing that is supposed to be the origin of all energy, all life, the God of everything, then destroying it would mean the destruction of everything. With no return.

Originally posted by Mr Master
THOTI was God's power, the Supreme power of the Marvel Universe.

Thanos became, what the Presence is in DC, that is ... the Supreme being.

?

The Presence has nothing to do with the HOTI.

The Supreme being in Marvel is TOAA and it created THOTU, it is not equal with another Supreme being in another universe unless you think it makes THOTU = TOAA.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Supreme being in Marvel is TOAA and it created THOTU, it is not equal with another Supreme being in another universe unless you think it makes THOTU = TOAA.
I think he does.

Originally posted by fangirl101
If you are one, then how can you destroy the very thing that you are? If you destroy the thing that is supposed to be the origin of all energy, all life, the God of everything, then destroying it would mean the destruction of everything. With no return.
THOTI wasn't really destroyed, it was converted or change into the reborn universe. It was all balance out in Thanos creation.

Originally posted by vansonbee
THOTI wasn't really destroyed, it was converted or change into the reborn universe. It was all balance out in Thanos creation.
Thanos created nothing. What he did was a glorified version of the UN.

Originally posted by fangirl101
The Heart of the Infinite No longer exist. So it certainly wasn't anything close to God's power. What does that matter for the sake of this thread?Originally posted by kevdude
The Supreme being in Marvel is TOAA and it created THOTU, it is not equal with another Supreme being in another universe unless you think it makes THOTU = TOAA. TOAA is a person. It isnt an on panel creation unless that person imagines something like that in the comic. Real life people are always greater than the drawings.Originally posted by fangirl101
Thanos created nothing. What he did was a glorified version of the UN. Huh? I cant even figure out what you are even talking about anymore.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Thanos created nothing. What he did was a glorified version of the UN.

Say what you said here out loud to yourself.

They have exactly equal power.

The Presence > Michael > Thanos w/THOTU.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What does that matter for the sake of this thread? TOAA is a person. It isnt an on panel creation unless that person imagines something like that in the comic. Real life people are always greater than the drawings. Huh? I cant even figure out what you are even talking about anymore.

A real person can't put themselves in a comic book, get real . Marvel fanboys at the extreme. What if DC fans took it to that extreme? Lucifer talking about real people and the real world, heck even his writer mentions some strange things (listening to him). I've seen the scans, that's how they saw TOAA/God

I never really considered The Heart equal to The Presence.

If it was, it should not cease to exist.

But the fact that MU continues to exist without THOTI is proof that
The Presence >>>>> THOTI

Originally posted by King Kandy
They have exactly equal power.
And yet The heart does not exist anymore and the Presence does. Equal in what?

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
I never really considered The Heart equal to The Presence.

If it was, it should not cease to exist.

But the fact that MU continues to exist without THOTI is proof that
The Presence >>>>> THOTI

Originally posted by fangirl101

If you are one, then how can you destroy the very thing that you are? If you destroy the thing that is supposed to be the origin of all energy, all life, the God of everything, then destroying it would mean the destruction of everything. With no return.
Thanos first created everything from nothingness,
then, he eradicated the Heart itself,
but all things were already in place.

THOTI is not the origin of all energy btw.
THOTI was a conduit to all energy in Marvel.
Originally posted by fangirl101

Thanos created nothing.

Originally posted by fangirl101

What he did was a glorified version of the UN.
Thanos absorbed the entire Marvel Universe, turned it into a void of nothingness,
then Thanos created from nothingness the entire Marvel Universe.

Originally posted by kevdude

The Supreme being in Marvel is TOAA and it created THOTU,
it is not equal with another Supreme being in another universe
unless you think it makes THOTU = TOAA.
Actually, TOAA creates & draws everything we see on panel on pieces of paper.

So, TOAA is far beyond his drawings,
and other than creating what they do, say and feel,
TOAA has absolutely no other affiliated connection to them.

Unlike the Presence, who's related to other drawings.
(like Lucifer & Michael and the rest of the family)
Unlike the Presence who has a polar opposite. (GEB)
Unlike the Presence who's shaped by external forces. (writers/artists like TOAA)
Unlike the Presence who has characters escaping their destiny like Lucifer.

TOAA & the Presence?

Not the same thing in any sense of the word.


According to Marvel Comics, on panel evidence that's corroborated in official Marvel Handbooks,
and further confirmed in Thanos' 2008 Marvel.com bio,
THOTI made Thanos God Almighty, the Supreme Being.

This has been proven across numerous threads involving said issue.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
I never really considered The Heart equal to The Presence.

If it was, it should not cease to exist.

But the fact that MU continues to exist without THOTI is proof that
The Presence >>>>> THOTI Your logic is bull shit lolz. up Best both side of power stalemate

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, TOAA creates & draws everything we see on panel on pieces of paper.

So, TOAA is far beyond his drawings,
and other than creating what they do, say and feel,
TOAA has absolutely no other affiliated connection to them.

Unlike the Presence, who's related to other drawings.
(like Lucifer & Michael and the rest of the family)
Unlike the Presence who has a polar opposite. (GEB)
Unlike the Presence who's shaped by external forces. (writers/artists like TOAA)
Unlike the Presence who has characters escaping their destiny like Lucifer.

TOAA & the Presence?

Not the same thing in any sense of the word.


According to Marvel Comics, on panel evidence that's corroborated in official Marvel Handbooks,
and further confirmed in Thanos' 2008 Marvel.com bio,
THOTI made Thanos God Almighty, the Supreme Being.

This has been proven across numerous threads involving said issue. When will you stop confusing YWH with the Presence. Two different Gods of Two different realities. the Presence of The God of everything that is DC. YWH is the God of the Vertigo Multiverses. So your explaination is incorrect. The Heart did Not make Thanos God. God does not over look, nor does he get used, and if the power were as infinite as you want to believe, then the master manipulator could have fixed the mistake himself.

Originally posted by kevdude

A real person can't put themselves in a comic book, get real
You still with this?

Still? ...

I mean seriously, this has been addressed how many times? doh

TOAA is a fictional illustrated representation of the writers/artists of Marvel comics.

That's it, simple ...
Originally posted by kevdude

Marvel fanboys at the extreme.
In your case It would be ... Marvel ignorance to the extreme then.
Originally posted by kevdude

What if DC fans took it to that extreme? Lucifer talking about real people and the real world, heck even his writer mentions some strange things (listening to him).
Actually DC already took it to what you call the "extreme" ...

Animal Man #26 is best example.
Originally posted by kevdude

I've seen the scans, that's how they saw TOAA/God
False.

In all 4 cases that TOAA has appeared on panel,
it's been a representative avatar of the writer and/or artist.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You still with this?

Still? ...

I mean seriously, this has been addressed how many times? doh

TOAA is a fictional illustrated representation of the writers/artists of Marvel comics.

That's it, simple ...

In your case It would be ... Marvel ignorance to the extreme then.

Actully DC already took it to what you call the "extreme" ...

Animal Man #26 is best example.

False.

In all 4 cases that TOAA has appeared on panel,
it's been a representative avatar of the writer and/or artist.
It's still on panel. What ever they represent. it's still ON PANEL.

Originally posted by kevdude
A real person can't put themselves in a comic book, get real . Marvel fanboys at the extreme. What if DC fans took it to that extreme? Lucifer talking about real people and the real world, heck even his writer mentions some strange things (listening to him). I've seen the scans, that's how they saw TOAA/God Kevdude you have seen the scans so why do you pretend that the writer hasnt imagined himself to the ff4 in a comic book before.

TOAA is the writer and not an on panel creation unless the writer chooses to put himself in the comic. The presence is an on panel creation. They are completely different.

Originally posted by vansonbee
Your logic is bull shit lolz. up Best both side of power stalemate
I have yet to read a post from you that actually made any sense.
So far, ALL your posts in this forum are pointless and utter BS.

Originally posted by fangirl101

When will you stop confusing YWH with the Presence.
Two different Gods of Two different realities.

the Presence of The God of everything that is DC.

YWH is the God of the Vertigo Multiverses.

So your explaination is incorrect.
Not according to trusted DC cosmic related debaters.

Kev/Jun/Galan/Erik/Ast and others, have all said, the Presence & Yahweh are the same.

If you have evidence to prove them wrong, by all means do so.
Originally posted by fangirl101

The Heart did Not make Thanos God.
According to Marvel Comics, on panel evidence that's corroborated in official Marvel Handbooks,
and further confirmed in Thanos' 2008 Marvel.com bio,
THOTI made Thanos God Almighty, the Supreme Being.

This has been proven across numerous threads involving said issue.
Originally posted by fangirl101

God does not over look, nor does he get used
God doesn't have a polar opposite,
God isn't shaped by external forces,
God doesn't have his creations escaping his plan.

See, I can play that silly nitpicking game too concerning the Presence.
Originally posted by fangirl101

and if the power were as infinite as you want to believe,
then the master manipulator could have fixed the mistake himself.
Interesting, if he didn't fix the flaw,
I wonder how is there still a Marvel Universe?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not according to trusted DC cosmic related debaters.

Kev/Jun/Galan/Erik/Ast and others, have all said, the Presence & Yahweh are the same.

If you have evidence to prove them wrong, by all means do so.

According to Marvel Comics, on panel evidence that's corroborated in official Marvel Handbooks,
and further confirmed in Thanos' 2008 Marvel.com bio,
THOTI made Thanos God Almighty, the Supreme Being.

This has been proven across numerous threads involving said issue.

God doesn't have a polar opposite,
God isn't shaped by external forces,
God doesn't have his creations escaping his plan.

See, I can play that silly nitpicking game too.

Interesting, if he didn't fix the flaw,
I wonder how is there still a Marvel Universe?
Your trusted sources? LMAO. Vertigo's God is Elaine. She Got her power from that version of Michael who Got his power from YWH. In THE DCU, Mikey is fine, Elaine does not exist. I'm sorry you don't keep up with DC. Do you want me to tell you where you can buy these issues? You seem to need help in that area.

I dont' remember God having a polar opposite. I remember the GEB fighting the Ultimate Light. Now show me where that light is said to be God.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

I have yet to read a post from you that actually made any sense.
So far, ALL your posts in this forum are pointless and utter BS.
No offense, but this post isn't anymore illuminating:
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

I never really considered The Heart equal to The Presence.

If it was, it should not cease to exist.

But the fact that MU continues to exist without THOTI
is proof that The Presence >>>>> THOTI
THOTI isn't the Marvel Universe,
so why to you THOTI needs to exist in order for Marvel to exist,
is not making sense.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Your trusted sources? LMAO. Vertigo's God is Elaine. She Got her power from that version of Michael who Got his power from YWH. In THE DCU, Mikey is fine, Elaine does not exist. I'm sorry you don't keep up with DC. Do you want me to tell you where you can buy these issues? You seem to need help in that area.

I dont' remember God having a polar opposite. I remember the GEB fighting the Ultimate Light. Now show me where that light is said to be God.
I see, so it's just more empty fonts, with no proof,
with no target source to find the proof,
with basically, nothing aside from your perspective,
you may be right, but without confirmation ... it's not good enough for me.

I'm gonna go with the others, who actually backed up their claims.
Originally posted by fangirl101

It's still on panel. What ever they represent. it's still ON PANEL.
I never said otherwise.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I see, so it's just more empty fonts, with no proof,
with no target source to find the proof,
with basically, nothing really, nothing aside from your perspective,
you may be right, but without confirmation.

I'm gonna go with the others, who actually backed up their claims.
LOL. It called the respect thread. One only has to read lucifers to know that they aren't the same being.

gotta love the way master pwns fangirl

Originally posted by skyfather
gotta love the way master pwns fangirl Fangirl never backs up anything (s)he says.

Originally posted by skyfather
gotta love the way master pwns fangirl
Gotta love the way I just reported you for flaming.

Mr Master, to be honest, I've changed my view on the whole thing. The way I see it, there have been numerous interpretations of who/what God actually is in the DC Universe, with many authors not taking into account another one's interpretation when writing it, and with some series/interpretations being canon or not to the DC Universe.

As for the line between Vertigo and the DC Universe, it has always been blurry but, according to Dan Didio, mine and probably a few others's opinion, they are not withing the same continuity, eventough they do share many similarities.

Be it the writer/artist/Yahweh/Ultimate Light & GEB merged, or any other interpretation (a new one apprently being introduced in Superman Beyond, which contradicts the very nature of Spectre's existence for example, with the writer of the mini-series featuring Spectre even going as flat-out saying that he is not going to take into account this new interpretation due to already having a hard time portraying the DCU God without upsetting other religions and such), I will regard the supreme being as supreme, unsurpassable. Period. And I'm not going to engage in any more 'Is the Presence supreme?', 'Look here, he says he is shaped by something else' type of discussions.

But then again, this is only my opinion/view.

Originally posted by fangirl101

LOL. It called the respect thread.
Wonderful, so the knowledge you bring to debates stems from "respect threads?"


Originally posted by fangirl101

One only has to read lucifers to know that they aren't the same being.
So which is it, "respect threads" ... or "Lucifer series?"

btw. Why don't you tell me where to look in the Lucifer series, (I have it)
so I can verify your claim.

If you were to ask me for any title & # to any source of info I bring to kmc,
I could do that immediately, I would even throw in the exact page.

Can you? ... If you can, then do so, otherwise it's just unsupported statements.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wonderful, so the knowledge you bring to debates stems from "respect threads?"



So which is it, "respect threads" ... or "Lucifer series?"

btw. Why don't you tell me where to look in the Lucifer series, (I have it)
so I can verify your claim.

If you were to ask me for any title & # to any source of info I bring to kmc,
I could do that immediately, I would even throw in the exact page.

Can you? ... If you can, then do so, otherwise it's just unsupported statements.
When was the last time the presence was featured in a DC title? What did he look like? What happened? Does this conflict with Elaine who now runs vertigo? How does Micheal look in the DCU? Why is there still a hell in the DCU ( Currently running in the Neron Vs. Satanish books) when Elaine God of Vertigo Destroyed hell? Um yeah. Enough. YWH and the Presence aren't the same.

Sorry to disagree Mr. M,
but IMO, The Presence is >> THOTI or Thanos w/ THOTI

THOTI has ceased to exist.
MU does NOT require the THOTI.



The Presence is an everlasting element in the DC continuity.

Nothing was/is/will be greater than The Presence in DC.
No amount of artifacts could equate with it's omnipotence.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Sorry to disagree Mr. M,
but IMO, The Presence is >> THOTI or Thanos w/ THOTI

THOTI has ceased to exist.
MU does NOT require the THOTI.



The Presence is an everlasting element in the DC continuity.

Nothing was/is/will be greater than The Presence in DC.
No amount of artifacts could equate with it's omnipotence. What does that have to do with this thread?

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

Sorry to disagree Mr. M,
but IMO, The Presence is >> THOTI or Thanos w/ THOTI
According to Marvel Comics ... THOTI = the Supreme being.

Don't know what else to tell ya.
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

THOTI has ceased to exist.
MU does NOT require the THOTI.
And?

THOTI is not the Marvel Universe,
and it was never stated and/or depicted that the Marvel Universe needed it to exist.

THOTI was a concentrated source of all energy in Marvel,
but the cornerstones of Reality are,
Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion and Galactus is the balance between them.

Exactly, if Galactus dies,
all of Marvel will collpase (cease to exist) in the form of Abraxas.

You're not suggesting Galactus > THOTI are ya,
cause based on your logic, that's what it seems.
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

The Presence is an everlasting element in the DC continuity.
So is Mr Immortal in Marvel, and he can't even lift a car.
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

Nothing was/is/will be greater than The Presence in DC.
No amount of artifacts could equate with it's omnipotence.
Same goes for the HOTI, so again, we land on the same boat.

Originally posted by Mr Master
According to Marvel Comics ... THOTI = the Supreme being.

Don't know what else to tell ya.

And?

THOTI is not the Marvel Universe,
and it was never stated and/or depicted that the Marvel Universe needed it to exist.

THOTI was a concentrated source of all energy in Marvel,
but the cornerstones of Reality are,
Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion and Galactus is the balance between them.

Exactly, if Galactus dies,
all of Marvel will collpase (cease to exist) in the form of Abraxas.

You're not suggesting Galactus > THOTI are ya,
cause based on your logic, that's what it seems.

So is Mr Immortal in Marvel, and he can't even lift a car.

Same goes for the HOTI, so again, we land on the same boat.
The Presence sustains the DCU. Galactus doesn't not sustain the Marvel u. So the analogy fails. The heart does not sustain the marvel u.

Originally posted by fangirl101

The Presence sustains the DCU. Galactus doesn't not sustain the Marvel u.

So the analogy fails.
If Galactus dies, the Marvel Universe will collapse.
Originally posted by fangirl101

The heart does not sustain the marvel u.
I never said it did.

In the Marvel Universe,
Infinity (embodiment of space) is the form of all existence,
and Eternity (time) is what makes it infinite.

As far as what supports the Marvel Universe:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/721892_etpf1.jpg

"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that all This -- is but the merest fraction of what Eternity is.

The core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"

Originally posted by fangirl101
The Presence sustains the DCU. Galactus doesn't not sustain the Marvel u. So the analogy fails. The heart does not sustain the marvel u.

Pretty much. Seems obvious to me. The Presence is the DCU. He is it's all mighty creator, omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. He exists outside and within the bounds of existence in the DCU. HOTI is just a super powerful artifact that is limited to a much greater degree, where's the Presence exists outside and within existence in the DCU HOTI exists in one place at one time and its power is limited to within the bounds of existence. And obviously is non essential to the workings of the Marvel U.

The Presence has no shape or form and he exists within and without every fabric of reality in the DCU, past, present and future. The closest the Presence has come to showing his form is in entities like the Source and even that is merely one aspect of his presence/power. The Presence is obviously based on the jewish version of God, where he exists within and outside of time, has no form (since he's omnipresent), and is absolutely omnipotent & omniscient.

I always took the HOTI as being a carbon copy of TOAA's power. So that, when Thanos merged with HOTI, TOAA and Thanos weren't one being, but that Thanos had all the power of TOAA (and thus becoming the Supreme Being).

Just as the Presence doesn't directly interact with anyone in the DCU and has agents for that capable of wielding Its power (Spectre, Michael, Lucifer, etc.) that's the way I saw TOAA allowing Thanos to wield His power in order to fix the flaw in the MU.

That being said, I think The Heart of the Infinite and The Presence are equal. And that this would be a stalemate.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I always took the HOTI as being a carbon copy of TOAA's power. So that, when Thanos merged with HOTI, TOAA and Thanos weren't one being, but that Thanos had all the power of TOAA (and thus becoming the Supreme Being).

Just as the Presence doesn't directly interact with anyone in the DCU and has agents for that capable of wielding Its power (Spectre, Michael, Lucifer, etc.) that's the way I saw TOAA allowing Thanos to wield His power in order to fix the flaw in the MU.

That being said, I think The Heart of the Infinite and The Presence are equal. And that this would be a stalemate.
Now how would that be a stalemate when the heart wasn't a copy of TOAA's power. How could it be? How can you copy god's power?

Originally posted by fangirl101
Now how would that be a stalemate when the heart wasn't a copy of TOAA's power. How could it be? How can you copy god's power?

It was a copy. I'm pretty sure God can do whatever It wants. And It wanted the flaw fixed. And Thanos was the perfect candidate.

Stalemate.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It was a copy. I'm pretty sure God can do whatever It wants. And It wanted the flaw fixed. And Thanos was the perfect candidate.
Then That God wasn't Omnipotent. Cuz he couldn't fix it himself. And you can't copy absolute Omnipotence. It's impossible. To even say that Thanos wielding an artifact of power would be equal to the presence is dumb. for the presence with all of his power can create the same kind of power with in the source or michael. and yet he's still above them.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It was a copy. I'm pretty sure God can do whatever It wants. And It wanted the flaw fixed. And Thanos was the perfect candidate.

I'm sure God can do what ever it wants but to create a carbon copy means that his power is not insurmountable if a force exists to contend with his power.

Think about it. Omnipotence has no room for rivalry, because it's omnipotence. You can't have two absolutely omnipotent entities, because being omnipotent means having no limitation, another power that can contend with you compromises that omnipotence.

Originally posted by Allankles
I'm sure God can do what ever it wants but to create a carbon copy means that his power is not insurmountable if a force exists to contend with his power.

Think about it. Omnipotence has no room for rivalry, because it's omnipotence. You can't have two absolutely omnipotent entities, because being omnipotent means having no limitation, another power that can contend with you compromises that omnipotence.

QFT


The Presence wins

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

QFT


The Presence wins

This thread is funny.

So it's unsupported opinions > Marvel Comics on panel facts, confirmed in Marvel Handbooks.

durlaugh

Originally posted by Allankles
I'm sure God can do what ever it wants but to create a carbon copy means that his power is not insurmountable if a force exists to contend with his power.

Think about it. Omnipotence has no room for rivalry, because it's omnipotence. You can't have two absolutely omnipotent entities, because being omnipotent means having no limitation, another power that can contend with you compromises that omnipotence.

edit

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
edit
The one's that back up his theories are.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This thread is funny.

So it's unsupported opinions > Marvel Comics on panel facts, confirmed in Marvel Handbooks.

durlaugh

No just logic. You can't be absolutely omnipotent within the confines of your universe and have a artifact or entity be able to contend or match your power. What that means is that you're not absolutely omnipotent, as there' something out there that can contend with you.

Originally posted by Allankles

Pretty much. Seems obvious to me. The Presence is the DCU. He is it's all mighty creator, omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. He exists outside and within the bounds of existence in the DCU.

HOTI is just a super powerful artifact that is limited to a much greater degree, where's the Presence exists outside and within existence in the DCU

HOTI exists in one place at one time
and its power is limited to within the bounds of existence.
If Thanos was limited to within the bounds of existence,
how did he exist when there was no existence?

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9067/th1rn4.th.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/991/allhecouldum7.th.jpg

Thanos made all existence/reality disappear, with the exception of Warlock and Death.
Originally posted by Allankles

And obviously is non essential to the workings of the Marvel U.
Galactus is the most essential physical entity in the Marvel Universe,
and yet Galactus is a less than a flea to some in that same Marvel Universe,
heck, let me not even bring up the Phoenix's essentiality in comparison with its power.
Originally posted by Allankles

The Presence has no shape or form and he exists within
and without every fabric of reality in the DCU, past, present and future.
The Alien Entity brought the Marvel Universe to its Pre-Big Bang point,
the AE with a thought, created the spark that ignites the original Big Bang,
then the AE initiated the original Big Bang that spawned the Marvel Omniverse,
then the AE merged with those energies of creation known as the Big Bang,
the fires/engines of creation that gave birth to the Past/Present and Future yet to be.

Yes, the Alien Entity is one with the energies that make all that happen,
and yet, the Alien Entity is not the most powerful character in Marvel so ...
Originally posted by Allankles

The closest the Presence has come to showing his form is in entities like the Source and even that is merely one aspect of his presence/power.
The Beyonders have never shown their form in any way, shape or form at all,
does this make them the most powerful entities in Marvel,
not at all.

Originally posted by Allankles

The Presence is obviously based on the jewish version of God,
where he exists within and outside of time, has no form (since he's omnipresent),

and is absolutely omnipotent & omniscient.
If existing outside of time, and having no form is what makes him special,
then there's a host of Marvel characters that would stalemate his speciality,
starting with Warlock (who's outside the influence of BOTH Time & Space)

http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/7376/adamgoesbtwnuniverses26zw.th.jpg

...............................................................


As for "absolutely omnipotent"

Well, so is a wielder of the IG:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gauntlet_%28item%29

Powers: "Absolute Omnipotence when the Gems are used altogether"



Indeed, on panel the IG makes one GOD! (beneath the LT though)

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1825/igmakesyougod7zf.th.jpg

"Thanos ... in-effect became God"

...............................................................


As for "absolutely omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent"

That goes to the Living Tribunal, who is above the IG, but below the HOTI:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Living_Tribunal

Power: "Omnipotent and Omniscient"



Oh, .... and "Omnipresent"

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2994/lt2cm.th.jpg


Here's that same Omnipotent/Omniscient/Omnipresent Living Tribunal getting stomped by THOTI:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1825/teb9.th.jpg

The LT is niether omnipotent or Omnicient.

In she hulk, he discovers a different reality called the ultimate verse.
He didn't know he was not going to be able to beat proteous. He isn't omnicient.

nither is he omnipotent. he couldn't beat proteous and had to use a power up.
The Heart of the infinite did not make Thanos God.

I was going to respond to fangirl, Mr. Master, but I think your last post will do fine. I don't know how I would argue with "You can't copy absolute omnipotence" yet in the same post say something like, "the presence with all of his power can create the same kind of power with in the source or michael."

Ah, well.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If Thanos was limited to within the bounds of existence,
how did he exist when there was no existence?

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9067/th1rn4.th.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/991/allhecouldum7.th.jpg

Thanos made all existence/reality disappear, with the exception of Warlock and Death.



That's not really the crux of my argument. And if we want to talk existence, that's an awfully huge subject. Does absorbing the contents of the universe, place you outside of existence itself?

Anyway back to the crux of my argument, the point I've made is that if the TOAA's power can be contended by HOTI then he isn't truly absolutely omnipotent within the Marvel U.

The very nature of being absolutely omnipotent prevents such a scenario from ever occurring even if he wanted it to be so, his power would be insurmountable regardless.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I was going to respond to fangirl, Mr. Master, but I think your last post will do fine. I don't know how I would argue with "You can't copy absolute omnipotence" yet in the same post say something like, "the presence with all of his power can create the same kind of power with in the source or michael."

Ah, well.
I said that the presence has created the same kind of power as the heart of the infintie within mikey and the source. and yet they are less than he.

Originally posted by Allankles
Anyway back to the crux of my argument, the point I've made is that if the TOAA's power can be contended by HOTI then he isn't truly absolutely omnipotent within the Marvel U.

The very nature of being absolutely omnipotent prevents such a scenario from ever occurring even if he wanted it to be so, his power would be insurmountable regardless.

...No.

Omnipotence means All Powerful. If you're all powerful, what's stopping you from making a second, perfect copy? Ah, nothing.

Originally posted by Enyalus
...No.

Omnipotence means All Powerful. If you're all powerful, what's stopping you from making a second, perfect copy? Ah, nothing.
The moment you do, then you nor the item are ALL powerful. ALL means ALL. You can't have Two ALL's.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I said that the presence has created the same kind of power as the heart of the infintie within mikey and the source. and yet they are less than he.

Omnipotence is power. Omniscience is knowledge. Omnipresence is being everywhere.

That he created someone with the same power as them, means he gave them the same level of omnipotence. Of course they're below him - they aren't God.

Originally posted by Allankles

No just logic. You can't be absolutely omnipotent within the confines of your universe and have a artifact or entity be able to contend or match your power. What that means is that you're not absolutely omnipotent, as there' something out there that can contend with you.
You're confusing DC's understanding of the Supreme being with Marvel's.

I don't care how DC runs their cosmology.

In Marvel Comics, the Heart of the Infinite made Thanos the Supreme Being (GOD)

TOAA is above God, TOAA are two people,
one that imagines everything that takes place on panel,
and one that draws everything that takes place on panel.
Obviously illustrated representative avatars of the real world writers/artists.

TOAA, created and drew a story called The End: Marvel,
where one of their drawings named Thanos
acquired the Supreme power of their imaginary world called the Marvel Universe,

this Supreme power was called the Heart of the Infinite.

All this, THOTI/the Omniverse/whatever and whoever that appears on panel,
is just a drawing on a piece of paper to them,
heck, even themselves, lol.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If existing outside of time, and having no form is what makes him special,
then there's a host of Marvel characters that would stalemate his speciality,
starting with Warlock (who's outside the influence of BOTH Time & Space)

http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/7376/adamgoesbtwnuniverses26zw.th.jpg

...............................................................


As for "absolutely omnipotent"

Well, so is a wielder of the IG:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gauntlet_%28item%29

Powers: "Absolute Omnipotence when the Gems are used altogether"



Indeed, on panel the IG makes one GOD! (beneath the LT though)

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1825/igmakesyougod7zf.th.jpg

"Thanos ... in-effect became God"

...............................................................


As for "absolutely omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent"

That goes to the Living Tribunal, who is above the IG, but below the HOTI:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Living_Tribunal

Power: "Omnipotent and Omniscient"



Oh, .... and "Omnipresent"

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2994/lt2cm.th.jpg


Here's that same Omnipotent/Omniscient/Omnipresent Living Tribunal getting stomped by THOTI:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1825/teb9.th.jpg

Nice scans but the word omnipotent is getting thrown around a lot. If we want to talk about true omnipotence then we're talking about the supreme god of the Marvel U and that's TOAA. If this Supreme being has a rival in HOTI then he can't truly be absolutely omnipotent as such a rivalry goes against the idea of absolute omnipotence. That an artifact outside of himself can contend with his power means that he isn't trully omniscient. The Presence has no such problems, with artifacts or with other entities. He is the alpha and the omega, first and last, no power can contend with him in the DCU.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You're confusing DC's understanding of the Supreme being with Marvel's.

I don't care how DC runs their cosmology.

In Marvel Comics, the Heart of the Infinite made Thanos the Supreme Being (GOD)

TOAA is above God, TOAA are two people,
one that imagines everything that takes place on panel,
and one that draws everything that takes place on panel.
Obviously illustrated representative avatars of the real world writers/artists.

TOAA, created and drew a story called The End: Marvel,
where one of their drawings named Thanos
acquired the Supreme power of their imaginary world called the Marvel Universe,

this Supreme power was called the Heart of the Infinite.

All this, THOTI/the Omniverse/whatever and whoever that appears on panel,
is just a drawing on a piece of paper to them,
heck, even themselves, lol.

So the TOAA is not a entity within the Marvel U itself? He's not an in universe being?

Originally posted by Allankles
Nice scans but the word omnipotent is getting thrown around a lot. If we want to talk about true omnipotence then we're talking about the supreme god of the Marvel U and that's TOAA. If this Supreme being has a rival in HOTI then he can't truly be absolutely omnipotent as such a rivalry goes against the idea of absolute omnipotence. That an artifact outside of himself can contend with his power means that he isn't trully omniscient.

Firstly, it isn't outside of himself. The HOTI is TOAA's power. Secondly, Marvel says Thanos became the Supreme Being. That's that. Case closed.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Presence has no such problems, with artifacts or with other entities. He is the alpha and the omega, first and last, no power can contend with him in the DCU.

Great Evil Beast ring a bell?

Originally posted by Enyalus
...No.

Omnipotence means All Powerful. If you're all powerful, what's stopping you from making a second, perfect copy? Ah, nothing.

Nothing except for such a thing to occur you cannot be ALL powerful. Theirs ANOTHER power that can contend with yours, you are not ALL powerful.

Originally posted by Allankles

That's not really the crux of my argument. And if we want to talk existence, that's an awfully huge subject.

Does absorbing the contents of the universe,
place you outside of existence itself?
Actually, Thanos absorbed all existence:

1.

(This is from the actual Marvel Handbook Bio 2006) - Eternity

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7417/58790925tc2.th.jpg

"Thanos claimed the Power of THOTI,

Eternity opposed Thanos once more,

Thanos destroyed ALL of Reality"




2.

(This is from the actual Marvel Handbook Bio 2006) - Living Tribunal

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/373/ltbioan2.th.jpg

"Thanos destroyed ALL that Existed with his power ...
and then Restored Reality"




3.

(This is from the actual Marvel Handbook Bio 2006) - Infinity

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6981/inth3.th.jpg

Thanos used THOTI to destroy All Reality
Originally posted by Allankles

Anyway back to the crux of my argument,
the point I've made is that if the TOAA's power can be contended by HOTI
then he isn't truly absolutely omnipotent within the Marvel U.
I don't know who made that ridiculous statement, but I know it wasn't me.

THOTI is nothing but a drawing on a piece of paper to TOAA.

Just like Reed and the FF, Silver Surfer, Black Panther and even Galactus,
are just silly drawings on a piece of paper to the OAA (writers/artists avatars)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6163/fantasticfour51119ze0.th.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1171/fantasticfour51118em9jtto2.th.jpg

Originally posted by Allankles

The very nature of being absolutely omnipotent prevents such a scenario from ever occurring even if he wanted it to be so,
his power would be insurmountable regardless.
Well again, your opinion is based on your mis-information.

TOAA (two beings) create and draw everything on pieces of paper,
these stories/drawings on a piece of paper may be reality to the ink on the pages,
but to TOAA, it's just ideas and ink on pieces of paper.

THOTI, is what GOD is, withIN the pages TOAA works on.
(TOAA couldn't fix the flaw, not cause they couldn't
but cause they made a story that they couldn't, just like they can do anything,
after all, it's just a goof for them, since it's just ink and pieces of paper.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Firstly, it isn't outside of himself. The HOTI is TOAA's power. Secondly, Marvel says Thanos became the Supreme Being. That's that. Case closed.

I'm no doubting what Marvel said, I'm talking about TOAA.



Originally posted by Enyalus
Great Evil Beast ring a bell?

That was Yahweh. Not the Presence. Different names for different beings not in the direct same continuity. At best you could say Yahweh is an aspect of the main DCU's Presence.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Firstly, it isn't outside of himself. The HOTI is TOAA's power. Secondly, Marvel says Thanos became the Supreme Being. That's that. Case closed.



Great Evil Beast ring a bell?
Marvel Says that Thanos was used by the Supreme being. So how can he become what he is being used by.

And the great evil beast stalemated the ultimate light. Show me where either one was the presence.

Originally posted by Mr Master


TOAA (two beings) create and draw everything on pieces of paper,
these stories/drawings on a piece of paper may be reality to the ink on the pages,
but to TOAA, it's just ideas and ink on pieces of paper.

THOTI, is what GOD is, withIN the pages TOAA works on.
(TOAA couldn't fix the flaw, not cause they couldn't
but cause they made a story that they couldn't, just like they can do anything,
after all, it's just a goof for them, since it's just ink and pieces of paper.

How can THOTI be what God is? Given that in essence it's just an artifact? So you're saying the LT is the one that occupies God's position within Marvel every other time?

Originally posted by fangirl101
And the great evil beast stalemated the ultimate light. Show me where either one was the presence.

Then, by your logic, The Presence isn't absolutely omnipotent, either. Because there is an Ultimate Light. And do you know what ultimate means? There can't be two ultimates.

So if GEB wasn't battling The Presence, The Presence doesn't have absolute omnipotence either.

I can play word games, too.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Then, by your logic, The Presence isn't absolutely omnipotent, either. Because there is an Ultimate Light. And do you know what ultimate means? There can't be two ultimates.

So if GEB wasn't battling The Presence, The Presence doesn't have absolute omnipotence either.

I can play word games, too.
Play word games with this. That was vertigo. That's number one.

Number two. The Ultimate Light and the GEB were both aspects of something greater.

Originally posted by Allankles

Nice scans but the word omnipotent is getting thrown around a lot.
I see, so it's only properly used when referring to DC's world.
Originally posted by Allankles

If we want to talk about true omnipotence
then we're talking about the supreme god of the Marvel U and that's TOAA.
No we're not, we're talking about many characters that possess true omnipotence.

In Marvel Comics, there are levels of Infinity: (omnipotence specifically)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742757_kkht2.jpg

Again, TOAA draws Supreme beings into existence,
being the Supreme being of the Marvel Universe means nothing to TOAA,
because it's TOAA that creates all that.
Originally posted by Allankles

If this Supreme being has a rival in HOTI then he can't truly be absolutely omnipotent as such a rivalry goes against the idea of absolute omnipotence. That an artifact outside of himself can contend with his power means that he isn't trully omniscient.
Addressed.
Originally posted by Allankles

The Presence has no such problems, with artifacts or with other entities.
He is the alpha and the omega, first and last, no power can contend with him in the DCU.
The Living Tribunal spins the Alpha & Omega in his hand.

Also, THOTI had no problems, with artifacts or with other entities.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Play word games with this. That was vertigo. That's number one.

Number two. The Ultimate Light and the GEB were both aspects of something greater.
Vertigo > Presence/GEB in DCU?
awepeach

Originally posted by vansonbee
Vertigo > Presence/GEB in DCU?
awepeach

geb doesn't exist with in the DCU.

Originally posted by Allankles

How can THOTI be what God is?
Ask Marvel.

I'm only conveying what Marvel Comics has depicted and confirmed in their Handbooks.
Originally posted by Allankles

Given that in essence it's just an artifact?
I never knew that, please show me where this is stated and/or depicted.
Originally posted by Allankles

So you're saying the LT is the one that occupies God's position within Marvel every other time?
Basically.

There has been an anomaly or two that has appeared on panel as being able to challenge the LT,
one of them was in the Future, so that doesn't count, and the other is THOTI, and it doesn't exist.

So yea, currently and for ever now in continuity, the LT is the top dog,
at-least until the 31st century.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I see, so it's only properly used when referring to DC's world.


It doesn't get thrown around so easily in DC. You only need a dictionary to know that using the word omnipotence for LT and the like isn't correct.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, TOAA draws Supreme beings into existence,
being the Supreme being of the Marvel Universe means nothing to TOAA,
because it's TOAA that creates all that.



Ok. So what does HOTI have to do with being the Supreme being in the MU? So TOAA (who's influence is mentioned in universe) created HOTI? Which means as far the MU is concerned he's the Supreme Authority. Of course this wouldn't matter if the TOAA wasn't in-universe.

..........................................................................


Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)


Excerpt from Thanos' own Bio:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ...

... Thanos decided that the true sign of his ultimate power,
would be to destroy the universe
and become the One true Supreme Being ... "

..........................................................................



=========== SUPREME BEING =============



..........................................................................


And GOD!

.................................................................................


Official Marvel Handbook as well:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2069/akbioyu7.th.jpg

"Thanos eradicated the Order, they ... Pronounced him GOD" ...

.............................................................................



=========== GOD =============


.............................................................................

......................................................................................


King Thor agrees that Thanos does in fact possess "The Supreme Power" ...

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6682/th1fl1.th.jpg

"Thanos has usurped the Power Supreme,
and now reigns over All Reality"

......................................................................................


So did Eternity:

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5800/th2qb7.th.jpg

"Relinquish the Supreme Power you have stolen"

......................................................................................

......................................................................................


I'd like to know something though,
what do you make of this?

......................................................................................


(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook 2006 - LT - bio)
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5738/lt1df4.th.jpg

"The Living Tribunal's ONLY superior is TOAA"

......................................................................................


Logic dictates that ONLY TOAA or a power = to or superior could defeat the LT:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1825/teb9.th.jpg

LT gets stomped!

......................................................................................


We know Thanos has "someone's" power,
there's no denying that, I'm sure you'll agree.

And if according to Marvel,
the ONLY power above the Living Tribunal's is TOAA's,
who's power do you believe Thanos has?

..................................................................................................


The rest of this evidence below,
simply solidifies the scans right above:

..................................................................................................


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9954/th17wg4.th.jpg

Thanos says:

"Eternity, you must sense that Everything the Almighty was I now am,

did you ever dare demand anything from Him"


Eternity responds,

"No, but" .... (Eternity is actually acknowledging that Thanos speaks the truth)

..................................................................................................

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/500/th18br2.th.jpg

"And I, like He was, am now the Author of All That Will Be ...

my Will is Supreme"


noneyes

usurped the Power Supreme.

Supreme power?

God's power?
Omnipotent power?
Doesn't say so.
My will is supreme? And yet he says that he was used? Hmm.
Since only that only the TOAA or his power can defeat the Lt, then how come Proteus was able to over ride him? proteus is God?

.............................................................................


THOTI is:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7385/th1mn4.th.jpg

"The Source from which all other power throughout Time & Space springs"

.............................................................................


It made Thanos "SUPREME"

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/39/t2lo0.th.jpg

.............................................................................


It made Thanos Everything ... of All things in the Marvel Omniverse:

................................................................................

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3922/43563012fv8.th.jpg

"How dare these cretins defy their Supreme Being?

Was I not Now the End-All and Be-All of Reality?

Their very existence was by My Whim"

...............................................................................


Indeed!

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4411/th10kz1.th.jpg

"I was Everything ... bonded to Omni-Reality" (the ENTIRE Marvel Universe)


srugdoped

Originally posted by Mr Master
..........................................................................


Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)


Excerpt from Thanos' own Bio:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ...

... Thanos decided that the true sign of his ultimate power,
would be to destroy the universe
and become the One true Supreme Being ... "

..........................................................................



=========== SUPREME BEING =============



..........................................................................


And GOD!

.................................................................................


Official Marvel Handbook as well:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2069/akbioyu7.th.jpg

"Thanos eradicated the Order, they ... Pronounced him GOD" ...

.............................................................................



=========== GOD =============





.............................................................................

I appreciate the scans, but I'm talking about the TOAA's influence in universe. If he influenced and is referenced in universe then it is he who is the Supreme Authority. Much as the Presence is the Supreme Authority in the DCU. TOAA in the MU brought forth HOTI, so he's the supreme authority in MU (as I think you stated).

Originally posted by Mr Master
.............................................................................


THOTI is:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7385/th1mn4.th.jpg

"The Source from which all other power throughout Time & Space springs"

.............................................................................


It made Thanos "SUPREME"

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/39/t2lo0.th.jpg

.............................................................................


It made Thanos Everything ... of All things in the Marvel Omniverse:

................................................................................

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3922/43563012fv8.th.jpg

"How dare these cretins defy their Supreme Being?

Was I not Now the End-All and Be-All of Reality?

Their very existence was by My Whim"

...............................................................................


Indeed!

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4411/th10kz1.th.jpg

"I was Everything ... bonded to Omni-Reality" (the ENTIRE Marvel Universe)


srugdoped

But who brought HOTI into existence? The TOAA right? The same thing the Presence does, of course he hasn't created things like HOTI in the DCU only the Source (which is the universal expression of energy in the dcu).

Jim Starlin (Writer/Creator of "The End: Marvel"

===================================

Jim Starlin interview:

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=000382

(scroll to the middle)

"Thanos and the resurrected Pharaoh Akhenaten compete for the ultimate power"

"Figured if I was going to kill off the entire Marvel Universe
it ought to be the real thing"

===================================




===================================

Another Jim Starlin (creator/writer of "The End: Marvel" interview:


Jim Starlin states ... Thanos: "basically he was God" (first paragraph)


http://www.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/starlin.html

===================================

basically god? There you go with that again.

Not thanos was god. Basically.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Jim Starlin (Writer/Creator of "The End: Marvel"

===================================

Jim Starlin interview:

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=000382

(scroll to the middle)

"Thanos and the resurrected Pharaoh Akhenaten compete for the ultimate power"

"Figured if I was going to kill off the entire Marvel Universe
it ought to be the real thing"

===================================




===================================

Another Jim Starlin (creator/writer of "The End: Marvel" interview:


Jim Starlin states ... Thanos: "basically he was God" (first paragraph)


http://www.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/starlin.html

===================================

And who was responsible for HOTI? It was just an artifact, it didn't just come into existence in-universe by itself.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Susurped the Power Supreme.

Supreme power?

God's power?
Omnipotent power?
Doesn't say so.
bangin
Originally posted by fangirl101

My will is supreme?
And yet he says that he was used? Hmm.
Right, used by the guy who's drawing the comic book.

As if the Presence is a drawing, or idea that speaks for itself.

No, the Presence,
and everything else withIN that company is subject to the whims of writers/artists.
Originally posted by fangirl101

Since only that only the TOAA or his power can defeat the Lt,
then how come Proteus was able to over ride him? proteus is God?
Nah, Proteus is located in a Future that won't arrive for another 1000 years.

In the current Marvel Universe, the LT is second to TOAA.

The Presence is infinite and Eternal and cannot be destroyed. The same cannot be said of the heart. thus they are not equals. Period.

Originally posted by Mr Master
bangin

Right, used by the guy who's drawing the comic book.

As if the Presence is a drawing, or idea that speaks for itself.

No, the Presence,
and everything else withIN that company is subject to the whims of writers/artists.

You can't make the comparison since TOAA is a presence within MU. He is a fixture of the MU as the Presence is with the DCU. In the DCU the Presence is the Supreme authority, the writer isn't a fixture or presence within the DCU which means the Presence occupies that role without the out-of-universe connotations.

Originally posted by Mr Master

In the current Marvel Universe, the LT is second to TOAA.

Which again means that TOAA is the Supreme Authority in the MU.

Originally posted by Allankles

It doesn't get thrown around so easily in DC.
You only need a dictionary to know that using the word omnipotence
for LT and the like isn't correct.
Nah, it's you friend that's again confusing yourself by using DC logic to define Marvel.

Again:
Originally posted by Mr Master

In Marvel Comics, there are levels of Infinity: (omnipotence specifically)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742757_kkht2.jpg
Originally posted by Allankles

Ok. So what does HOTI have to do with being the Supreme being in the MU?
dontgetit
Originally posted by Allankles

So TOAA (who's influence is mentioned in universe) created HOTI?
Which means as far the MU is concerned he's the Supreme Authority.
I told ya several times already, even posted the scanned proof,
TOAA creates/draws everything that takes place on panel.

The whole concept of omnipotence, being eternal, being God, the Omniverse,
that's all just meaningless drawings on a piece of paper to TOAA.
Originally posted by Allankles

Of course this wouldn't matter if the TOAA wasn't in-universe.
TOAA draws everything that takes in and the Marvel Omniverse,
they do so from "Heaven" ... which is basically a representation of an artists' drawing studio.

Since by DC logic the Presence is Supreme, and By marvel Logic TOAA is supreme, that means they are equals

The Presence=TOAA.
Anything less than either is not supreme and thus not equal to the other.

TOAA>THOTU
Thus THOTU cannot be equal to the presence.

Originally posted by Allankles

And who was responsible for HOTI?
TOAA is responsible for everything that tales place on panel,
because it's all just ideas and drawings on a piece of paper to them.
Originally posted by Allankles

It was just an artifact, it didn't just come into existence in-universe by itself.
THOTI was never an artifact.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7385/th1mn4.th.jpg

"The Source from which all other power throughout Time & Space springs"


According to Marvel Comics ... it always was, nothing brought it into existence,
of course, everything we see/read on panel is nothing but ideas and drawings of TOAA.

Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA is responsible for everything that tales place on panel,
because it's all just ideas and drawings on a piece of paper to them.

THOTI was never an artifact.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7385/th1mn4.th.jpg

"The Source from which all other power throughout Time & Space springs"


According to Marvel Comics ... it always was, nothing brought it into existence,
of course, everything we see/read on panel is nothing but ideas and drawings of TOAA. Sounds alot like the source or micheal.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah, it's you friend that's again confusing yourself by using DC logic to define Marvel.

It'ds nothing like that it's about the proper use of words, the definition of the word means that LT and the like aren't omnipotent within Marvel.

Again:


dontgetit

Originally posted by Mr Master
I told ya several times already, even posted the scanned proof,
TOAA creates/draws everything that takes place on panel.

The whole concept of omnipotence, being eternal, being God, the Omniverse,
that's all just meaningless drawings on a piece of paper to TOAA.

TOAA draws everything that takes in and the Marvel Omniverse,
they do so from "Heaven" ... which is basically a representation of an artists' drawing studio.

I've acknowledged this but the TOAA is a presence within the MU and as such occupies the role of Supreme Authority there. DC has not done the same for the role of the Presence by adding the writers as a fixture within the DCU.

We're talking about the hierachy of characters and TOAA is at the top of the heap in the MU, the Presence has the same position in DCU without the out-of-universe connotations like writers and artists drawing. The Presence creates and controls all things in the DCU without any reference to whether he fulfills this role as an out-of-universe artist/writer.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Since by DC logic the Presence is Supreme,
and By marvel Logic TOAA is supreme, that means they are equals

The Presence=TOAA.
Anything less than either is not supreme and thus not equal to the other.

TOAA>THOTU
Thus THOTU cannot be equal to the presence.
Only Marvel doesn't see it that way:

yawn

Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)


Excerpt from Thanos' own Bio:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ...

... Thanos decided that the true sign of his ultimate power,
would be to destroy the universe
and become the One true Supreme Being ... "

..........................................................................



=========== SUPREME BEING =============



..........................................................................


And GOD!

.................................................................................


Official Marvel Handbook as well:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2069/akbioyu7.th.jpg

"Thanos eradicated the Order, they ... Pronounced him GOD" ...

.............................................................................


=========== GOD =============


.............................................................................



Now you can play blind/deft and dumb, but I don't care.

I'm not gonna allow you to germinate the forum with fallacies that's for sure.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Only Marvel doesn't see it that way:

yawn

Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)


Excerpt from Thanos' own Bio:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ...

... Thanos decided that the true sign of his ultimate power,
would be to destroy the universe
and become the One true Supreme Being ... "

..........................................................................



=========== SUPREME BEING =============



..........................................................................


And GOD!

.................................................................................


Official Marvel Handbook as well:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2069/akbioyu7.th.jpg

"Thanos eradicated the Order, they ... Pronounced him GOD" ...

.............................................................................


=========== GOD =============


.............................................................................



Now you can play blind/deft and dumb, but I don't care.

I'm not gonna allow you to germinate the forum with fallacies that's for sure.

No ones is trying to play dumb. If the TOAA wasn't a presence within Marvel this wouldn't matter. And then you'd be left with the LT and Thanos and the readers wondering where THOTI came from except we know it came from the MU character TOAA.

EDIT: So in the end THOTI isn't equal to the Presence since it was a creation of the MU's Supreme authority TOAA.

Originally posted by Allankles

It'ds nothing like that it's about the proper use of words,
the definition of the word means that LT and the like aren't omnipotent within Marvel.

In Marvel Comics, there are levels of Infinity: (omnipotence specifically)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742757_kkht2.jpg

Any attempt at contradicting on panel proof is a vain endeavor at kmc.
Originally posted by Allankles

I've acknowledged this but the TOAA is a presence within the MU
and as such occupies the role of Supreme Authority there.
Last time:

TOAA is the writer and artist of any given story,
they are represented on panel by illustrated avatars,
they literally draw everything that takes place on panel,
they're not part of stories, they make the stories,
they're not "omnipotent, omniscient blah, blah. blah,
in fact, they're limited as any other human being would be,
cause that's what they're based off of, real human beings that write and draw in comics.
Originally posted by Allankles

DC has not done the same for the role of the Presence
by adding the writers as a fixture within the DCU.
Actually DC has:

Morrison's portrayal of a true comic book "God" in the Animal Man arc:

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4964/am1zz4.th.jpg

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9585/morrisondy8.th.jpg

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9864/morrison2us3.th.jpg

.................................................................................

It's right along the lines of FF#511, and other Marvel depictions,
but it's blatant, and more thorough in getting the idea across.


credit to Galan on these scans:
Originally posted by Allankles

We're talking about the hierachy of characters
and TOAA is at the top of the heap in the MU
Wrong.

TOAA imagines and draws everything that takes place on panel, including the hierarchy.

So how is TOAA gonna be categorized with shit they create by writing and drawing on paper?

That's an asinine predicament.
Originally posted by Allankles

the Presence has the same position in DCU without the out-of-universe connotations like writers and artists drawing. The Presence creates and controls all things in the DCU without any reference to whether he fulfills this role as an out-of-universe artist/writer.
Wrong.

Originally posted by Allankles

If the TOAA wasn't a presence within Marvel this wouldn't matter.
TOAA creates/draws everything that takes place on panel,
TOAA is not a presence within Marvel,
TOAA has only appeared to a few times,
and every time it was as a representative avatar of the writer and/or artist
of said title it appeared in.

You keep thinking TOAA looks at other drawings as if they are significant,
but in actuality, the LT, Eternity, THOTI, and every story ever displayed on panel,
was all created by TOAA on a piece of paper, meaning, it's just a fantasy of theirs.

Which in real life is exatly true,
that's what Marvel Comics are, a fantasy of the writers and artists.

Simple and plain, goodness please don't return with the same circle friend.
Originally posted by Allankles

And then you'd be left with the LT and Thanos and the readers wondering where THOTI came from except we know it came from the MU character TOAA.
Show me where on panel or in any bio that's mentioned.

Within comics, in the comic book story, The End: Marvel,
THOTI always was, eternal until Thanos erased it.

Just like the Infinity Being always was, it had no beginning,
it was the original creator of everything Marvel,
it was all, and everything was a part of it, it was God!

And?

Still just an idealized drawing to TOAA.

Because again, every concept withIn Marvel Comics,
is created/drawn by TOAA on a piece of paper.
Originally posted by Allankles

EDIT: So in the end THOTI isn't equal to the Presence
since it was a creation of the MU's Supreme authority TOAA.
So in the end, THOTI is equal to the Presence,
since they have both been the Supreme being.

The Presence is the God of the DCU.
TOAA is the God of the MU.
So they are equals. Anything less than either is not equal to either.

Originally posted by fangirl101

The Presence is the God of the DCU.

TOAA is the God of the MU.

So they are equals. Anything less than either is not equal to either.
Actually, TOAA is above GOD:

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7757/ltorderswl0iy.th.jpg


According to Jim Starlin, GOD is exactly what the IG made Thanos and Warlock:

Jim Starlin

(the writer/creator of the Infinity Gauntlet)

gets interviewed by Marvel Age.

Marvel Age is a Marvel title specifically designed to get the intricate details
to stories,
from the Writers themselves.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7315/igmakegod1bz0.th.jpg

"The Infinity Gauntlet,
a story that dealt with the idea of a nihilist (Thanos) becoming God"

..........................................................................................


Jim Starlin himself adds:

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9950/igmakegod2zt8.th.jpg

"I've done the good side of God and the bad side of God,
I've gone as far as I can with the Infinity Gauntlet"


=============================


Marvel.com states the Infinity Gauntlet grants,

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gauntlet_%28item%29

Powers: "Absolute Omnipotence when the Gems are used altogether"

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, TOAA is above GOD:

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7757/ltorderswl0iy.th.jpg


According to Jim Starlin, GOD is exactly what the IG made Thanos and Warlock:

Jim Starlin

(the writer/creator of the Infinity Gauntlet)

gets interviewed by Marvel Age.

Marvel Age is a Marvel title specifically designed to get the intricate details
to stories,
from the Writers themselves.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7315/igmakegod1bz0.th.jpg

"The Infinity Gauntlet,
a story that dealt with the idea of a nihilist (Thanos) becoming God"

..........................................................................................


Jim Starlin himself adds:

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9950/igmakegod2zt8.th.jpg

"I've done the good side of God and the bad side of God,
I've gone as far as I can with the Infinity Gauntlet"
what ever you wanna call it. the Presence is the Big Dog and DC. and TOAA is the big Dog at marvel. Thus they are equals. Anyone under either is less than either.

No, fangirl, they are not.

TOAA is an out-of-universe Source of Omnipotence. The Presence is an in-universe Source of Omnipotence.

Allankles, I think that's where you're not understanding things, too. In-universe, HOTI is God's Power. It is absolute omnipotence.

Originally posted by fangirl101

TOAA is the God of the MU.
Hey look, it's TOAA!

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1466/in1hy6.th.jpg

"This Being was the only Living Thing that Existed within Any and ALL Realities"

"ALL That Was and ALL that Was, Was it "


Then Thanos says, "I wouldn't blame you for calling it GOD ...

What other name would fit?"


(which makes sense)

................................................................................

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7470/in2uq6.th.jpg

"ALL That Was Was already Part of Itself ... there was NO Other in it's Life"

"It chose to put an End to itself ...

from it's Ashes rose ALL That is currently Reality ... in ALL it's many forms"

................................................................................


Diana of the Dark Shoppe (from another Multiverse) basically tells the same tale:

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/2944/in3gn0.th.jpg

"Many Millennia ago in your Universe, (the Prime Multiverse that is)
there was a God with the power of Infinity,
even with control of ALL that is,
the God's loneliness could not be soothed, by his own hand he died"

................................................................................


... oops ... Yes, that's GOD, yes GOD always was, yes GOD was everything,
yes, GOD created ALL Realities originally ...

but again ... oops ... that's not TOAA!

That's actually just one of TOAA's drawings (the Infinity Being)
doing what the TOAA wrote him to do.

Originally posted by Enyalus
No, fangirl, they are not.

TOAA is an out-of-universe Source of Omnipotence. The Presence is an in-universe Source of Omnipotence.

Allankles, I think that's where you're not understanding things, too. In-universe, HOTI is God's Power. It is absolute omnipotence.
it doesn't matter what marvel calls thier god. And what DC calls thiers. If DC says nothing can beat the power of the presence then it is supreme. if marvel's power is out of comics, it is still equal to Dc's since it is supreme. all else under either is not equal to either.

Right, it doesn't matter what Marvel says concerning their comics.
Originally posted by Enyalus

No, fangirl, they are not.

TOAA is an out-of-universe Source of Omnipotence.
The Presence is an in-universe Source of Omnipotence.

Allankles, I think that's where you're not understanding things, too.
In-universe, HOTI is God's Power.
It is absolute omnipotence.


Goodness Enyalus, is it really that hard to comprehend?

I thought the explanations I was delivering were too complex,
then I posted a plethora of unquestionable on panel proof,
confirmed in Handbooks, and Marvel.com,
yet, that wasn't enough,
so I posted Jim Starlin himself corroborating the on panel, bio confirmed facts.

Still though ... firefirefireph

Originally posted by Mr Master
Goodness Enyalus, is it really that hard to comprehend?

I thought the explanations I was delivering were too complex,
then I posted a plethora of unquestionable on panel proof,
confirmed in Handbooks, and Marvel.com,
yet, that wasn't enough,
so I posted Jim Starlin himself corroborating the on panel, bio confirmed facts.

Still though ... firefirefireph
No it's you who do NOT understand.
You are trying to force marvel's definition of Supremecy on DC.

If DC says the presence is supreme whether it's on panel or out of panel, it is supreme.

if marvel says that Nothign is above TOAA then that is it.

They are both equal.
Anything or anyone under either is not equal to either.

Originally posted by fangirl101
it doesn't matter what marvel calls thier god. And what DC calls thiers. If DC says nothing can beat the power of the presence then it is supreme. if marvel's power is out of comics, it is still equal to Dc's since it is supreme. all else under either is not equal to either.

So because DC says nothing in DCU can beat the Presence that means, automatically, nothing in Marvel can beat the Presence? Try again.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Right, it doesn't matter what Marvel says concerning their comics.



Goodness Enyalus, is it really that hard to comprehend?

I thought the explanations I was delivering were too complex,
then I posted a plethora of unquestionable on panel proof,
confirmed in Handbooks, and Marvel.com,
yet, that wasn't enough,
so I posted Jim Starlin himself corroborating the on panel, bio confirmed facts.

I know. I could see you getting frustrated. Because you're basically repeating yourself with a valid argument and numerous scans of proof.

It's pretty clear cut. Thanos with the Heart of the Infinite was the Supreme Being in Marvel's Universe (and, technically, even out of it since he absorbed it). Which makes him the equal of DC's Presence. And thus, they would probably stalemate.

Originally posted by fangirl101

No it's you who do NOT understand.

Originally posted by fangirl101

You are trying to force marvel's definition of Supremecy on DC.

If DC says the presence is supreme whether it's on panel or out of panel, it is supreme.
I could care less what DC does.
Originally posted by fangirl101

if marvel says that Nothign is above TOAA then that is it.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9954/th17wg4.th.jpg

Thanos says:

"Eternity, you must sense that Everything the Almighty was I now am,

did you ever dare demand anything from Him"


Eternity responds,

"No, but" .... (Eternity is actually acknowledging that Thanos speaks the truth)

..................................................................................................

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/500/th18br2.th.jpg

"And I, like He was, am now the Author of All That Will Be ...

my Will is Supreme"


noneyes


.............................................................................

Like I said, it was also confirmed in official handbook Bios:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2069/akbioyu7.th.jpg

"Thanos eradicated the Order, they ... Pronounced him GOD" ...

.............................................................................

stoned

Originally posted by Enyalus
So because DC says nothing in DCU can beat the Presence that means, automatically, nothing in Marvel can beat the Presence? Try again.


.
No. If DC's presence is Supreme, then it is supreme and at best the only things that can stalemate it are other supreme beings. You need to try again. Your mavel fanboyism is irking me to no end. One Company's supreme being is equal to the other's. Period. Anything less than either is not equal to either.

Originally posted by Mr Master


I could care less what DC does.


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9954/th17wg4.th.jpg

Thanos says:

"Eternity, you must sense that Everything the Almighty was I now am,

did you ever dare demand anything from Him"


Eternity responds,

"No, but" .... (Eternity is actually acknowledging that Thanos speaks the truth)

..................................................................................................

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/500/th18br2.th.jpg

"And I, like He was, am now the Author of All That Will Be ...

my Will is Supreme"


noneyes


.............................................................................

Like I said, it was also confirmed in official handbook Bios:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2069/akbioyu7.th.jpg

"Thanos eradicated the Order, they ... Pronounced him GOD" ...

.............................................................................

stoned
What the hell does the order have to do with pronouncing Thanos God? he wasn't the one above. never could be. The power was never his as he was still part of the one above all's story. he was NEVER GOD. never would be. Never had his power.

Originally posted by fangirl101
No. If DC's presence is Supreme, then it is supreme and at best the only things that can stalemate it are other supreme beings. You need to try again. Your mavel fanboyism is irking me to no end. One Company's supreme being is equal to the other's. Period. Anything less than either is not equal to either.

Moi? I'm hurt.

Since it's been stated in the sourcebooks, bios, and in the comics themselves that Thanos became the Supreme Being, I don't see what we're arguing about. They stalemate. I never said HOTI would win.

Now that would be Marvel fanboyism.

Originally posted by fangirl101

One Company's supreme being is equal to the other's. Period.

Anything less than either is not equal to either.
I agree:

..........................................................................


Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)


Excerpt from Thanos' own Bio:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ...

... Thanos decided that the true sign of his ultimate power,
would be to destroy the universe
and become the One true Supreme Being ... "

..........................................................................


=========== SUPREME BEING =============

Wow this thread sure is long for something that could have been ended with one word: STALEMATE.

Originally posted by fangirl101

he was NEVER GOD. never would be. Never had his power.
durznuts

Thanos was GOD!

Thanos became ALL!

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9469/t1vq7.th.jpg

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4935/t2vz2.th.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/829764_T.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree:

..........................................................................


Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)


Excerpt from Thanos' own Bio:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ...

... Thanos decided that the true sign of his ultimate power,
would be to destroy the universe
and become the One true Supreme Being ... "

..........................................................................


=========== SUPREME BEING =============
Thanos decided. And Yet All he did was get his hands on an unimaginable power source.

Originally posted by ultimatethor

Wow this thread sure is long for something that could have been ended with one word: STALEMATE.


Unfortunately, intransigence will do that to a thread.

How the hell can this be a stalemate when one is a power source that no longer exist and the other is a supreme being on which everything depends? The marvel wanking is utterly just crap at it's best.

Originally posted by fangirl101
How the hell can this be a stalemate when one is a power source that no longer exist and the other is a supreme being on which everything depends? The marvel wanking is utterly just crap at it's best.

They just don't want to concede the debate.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Unfortunately, intransigence will do that to a thread.

The Presence is everything, ALL mighty, ALL encompassing. HOTI is just a power source no different from the Source or the other universal expressions of energy and aspects of the Presence in DC.

With the Source, God Wave etc a being can destroy existence as it is known recreate etc, similar to what Thanos did with HOTI, but they'd still be below the Presence, none of that stuff affects him, he is the author oF existence and oblivion itself within the DCU, just like TOAA without the fourth wall element.

Originally posted by Allankles

They just don't want to concede the debate.
Right,
I'm gonna concede to your unsupported rendition of how the Marvel Universe works,
instead of following what Marvel Comics has to say about their own comics.

You got jokes dogs.
Originally posted by Allankles

The Presence is everything, ALL mighty, ALL encompassing.

HOTI is just a power source no different from the Source
or the other universal expressions of energy and aspects of the Presence in DC.

Originally posted by Mr Master

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4935/t2vz2.th.jpg

"I was everything, bonded to Omni-Reality"

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/829764_T.jpg

"I was Everything"
Try again.
Originally posted by Allankles

With the Source, God Wave etc a being can destroy existence as it is known recreate etc, similar to what Thanos did with HOTI, but they'd still be below the Presence, none of that stuff affects him, he is the author oF existence and oblivion itself within the DCU
There are Marvel characters that can destroy and re-create everything too, big deal,
in fact it's been done on panel 5 times,
and none were above the LT, or the IG, aside from THOTI of course.
Originally posted by Allankles

just like TOAA without the fourth wall element.
Nothing like TOAA in any way, shape or form

Originally posted by Mr Master
Right,
I'm gonna concede to your unsupported rendition of how the Marvel Universe works,
instead of following what Marvel Comics has to say about their own comics.

You got jokes dogs.



Try again.

There are Marvel characters that can destroy and re-create everything too, big deal,
in fact it's been done on panel 5 times,
and none were above the LT, or the IG, aside from THOTI of course.

Nothing like TOAA in any way, shape or form
The source can do everything The heart can. Micheal Surely Can.

Micheal would be equal to Thanos with the heart then?

But Miceal is below the presence.

Originally posted by fangirl101

The source can do everything The heart can. Micheal Surely Can.

Micheal would be equal to Thanos with the heart then?

But Miceal is below the presence.
You must be under the impression that erasing everything,
and re-creating everything is what makes THOTI special.
(that's been done by far lesser beings)

Nah.

The biggest feat THOTI has, is absorbing the LT like a mote in a storm.

There's no way for you to prove that the Source, or Mike can do that.

So, there's no opinion you can conjure that will make a valid comparison.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Right,


There are Marvel characters that can destroy and re-create everything too, big deal,
in fact it's been done on panel 5 times,
and none were above the LT, or the IG, aside from THOTI of course.


Which doesn't make sense because omnipotence is omnipotence (when it's not hyperbole) there are no levels to omnipotence.

That's why for me the LT, IG etc are not absolute omnipotence to me including HOTI since the TOAA (a Marvel U being) an recreate HOTI at will, within the Marvel U (not just in the background outside of it). In that sense it is no different from the Source or Godwave.

The Presence operates the same way as TOAA with the ability to recreate things at will but without the fourth wall pencils and ink associated with TOAA.

Fiction is fiction afterall it need not be presented as ink and pencils alone, but the MU chose to introduce that fourth wall element with TOAA.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You must be under the impression that erasing everything,
and re-creating everything is what makes THOTI special.
(that's been done by far lesser beings)

Nah.

The biggest feat THOTI has, is absorbing the LT like a mote in a storm.

There's no way for you to prove that the Source, or Mike can do that.

So, there's no opinion you can conjure that will make a valid comparison.

From the fact The Source is the beginning point of the Big Bang something LT was born from afterwards shows otherwise

Originally posted by Allankles

Which doesn't make sense because omnipotence is omnipotence
(when it's not hyperbole) there are no levels to omnipotence.

So basically this debate is at an end,
because you can't accept Marvel facts:

In Marvel Comics, there are levels of Infinity: (omnipotence specifically)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742757_kkht2.jpg

You don't like it, write Marvel a letter and complain,
but any further attempts at contradicting this fact would be trolling per forum rules.
Originally posted by Allankles

That's why for me the LT, IG etc are not absolute omnipotence to me including HOTI since the TOAA (a Marvel U being) an recreate HOTI at will, within the Marvel U (not just in the background outside of it). In that sense it is no different from the Source or Godwave.
That's your unsupported opinion.

When you have some evidence to back any of it up, holla.
Originally posted by Allankles

The Presence operates the same way as TOAA with the ability to recreate things at will but without the fourth wall pencils and ink associated with TOAA.

Fiction is fiction afterall it need not be presented as ink and pencils alone, but the MU chose to introduce that fourth wall element with TOAA.
The presence is nothing like TOAA, nothing at all.

Fiction is fiction ...

... well then stop trying to put your real world sensible logic into Marvel's fiction.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You must be under the impression that erasing everything,
and re-creating everything is what makes THOTI special.
(that's been done by far lesser beings)

Nah.

The biggest feat THOTI has, is absorbing the LT like a mote in a storm.

There's no way for you to prove that the Source, or Mike can do that.

So, there's no opinion you can conjure that will make a valid comparison. Actually Mikey beat the Spectre in like 3 pnuches and then said he could have destroyed him outright. Um so yeah. There you go.

Originally posted by kevdude

From the fact The Source is the beginning point of the Big Bang
something LT was born from afterwards shows otherwise
Never knew the LT was born from the Source's Big Bang.

Back to reality though:

Sise-Neg created the Marvel Universe from the pre-Big Bang point.
Entropy created the Marvel Universe via the Big Bang from nothingness.
The Alien Entity from the Pre-Big Bang point created the Marvel Universe using Reed's mind.

I supposed this makes all of the above (including Reed) > LT ...

Originally posted by fangirl101

Actually Mikey beat the Spectre in like 3 pnuches
and then said he could have destroyed him outright.
Um so yeah. There you go.


I said the LT, not Spectre.

What do I care what Mike can do to Spectre.

Originally posted by Mr Master


I said the LT, not Spectre.

What do I care what Mike can do to Spectre.
The Spectre is the wrath of God in persona. Nothing on panel ever has had the power to outright destroy the concept but, Mike. So in this instance, mike would be everything the heart was to Thanos.

Spectre is a joke. That stupid crossover got everything thinking he's on the LT's level.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So basically this debate is at an end,
because you can't accept Marvel facts:

In Marvel Comics, there are levels of Infinity: (omnipotence specifically)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742757_kkht2.jpg

You don't like it, write Marvel a letter and complain,
but any further attempts at contradicting this fact would be trolling per forum rules.

How can it be trolling? Marvel doesn't have a monopoly on language and according to the definition of the word omnipotence, the LT, IG etc are not absolutely omnipotent with respect to their universes based on their showings and TOAA's overaching influence within the Marvel U.

By definitions within language there can be no levels to omnipotence, levels suggest limits, 'omnipotence' and 'infinite' are words that mean no limitations. There's no trolling on my part, just pointing out hyperbole.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Spectre is a joke. That stupid crossover got everything thinking he's on the LT's level.
Well, He's shown that there are spectre's every where and he is the spectre prime. He is the guy who reversed the effects of the cosmic egg in jla avengers.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Never knew the LT was born from the Source's Big Bang.

Back to reality though:

Sise-Neg created the Marvel Universe from the pre-Big Bang point.
Entropy created the Marvel Universe via the Big Bang from nothingness.
The Alien Entity from the Pre-Big Bang point created the Marvel Universe using Reed's mind.

I supposed this makes all of the above (including Reed) > LT ...

Now where is that scan that shows LT Eternity and others faces right after the Big Bang in Marvel talking about them being born, do you have it?

Yeah, but then he gets embarrased in Revelations in 3 straight issues.

Originally posted by fangirl101

The Spectre is the wrath of God in persona.
Nothing on panel ever has had the power to outright destroy the concept but, Mike.
Funny, I remember Mxy killing Spectres, even one sent by his boss.

The ol' Spectre "backed by God" line seemed in-affective against Mxy.
Originally posted by fangirl101

So in this instance, mike would be everything the heart was to Thanos.
If Mike is the Supreme being sure, if not, then Mike is another mote to absorb.

Originally posted by Allankles

How can it be trolling? Marvel doesn't have a monopoly on language and according to the definition of the word omnipotence, the LT, IG etc are not absolutely omnipotent with respect to their universes based on their showings and TOAA's overaching influence within the Marvel U.
What the hell are you talking about TOAA's overarching influence?



Dude, TOAA create/draw everything that takes place on panel,
of course everything is under their control, of course!

The Presence is NOT a real thing dude, it doesn't think for itself,
it's ALSO a conceptualized idea
coming straight from the finite mind of human beings that work as Writers for DC.

This shit is getting silly already.
Originally posted by Allankles

By definitions within language there can be no levels to omnipotence, levels suggest limits, 'omnipotence' and 'infinite' are words that mean no limitations.
Marvel's claim of levels of Infinity wasn't made up by Marvel,
it's actually based on a real theorem from the real world created by Georg Cantor.

This theorem has been widely accepted as a legitimate theorem since 1891,
even inducted into Princeton's curriculum (like Calculus).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Cantor's Theorem:

"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."


on panel verification:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/659/c2cf9.th.jpg:

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - the prestigious PRINCETON University website:


"One of the greatest revolutions in mathematics occurred
when Georg Cantor (1845-1918)
promulgated his theory of transfinite sets."

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/4740.html

Originally posted by Allankles

There's no trolling on my part, just pointing out hyperbole.
Tell it to Princeton University.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Yeah, but then he gets embarrased in Revelations in 3 straight issues.
Nah. It says in the third revelations that God did not have any parts with this conflict. And then Spectre got bitched with the spear of Destiny. The spear that has christ blood on it. So um yeah. That is how that goes.

Originally posted by Mr Master



Georg Cantor - the prestigious PRINCETON University website:


"One of the greatest revolutions in mathematics occurred
when Georg Cantor (1845-1918)
promulgated his THEORY of transfinite sets."

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/4740.html


Tell it to Princeton University. That will be all.

..............................................................

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6475/kkht2.th.jpg

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................


CONTINUES ...

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7586/ccdh3.th.jpg

Kubik finishes:

"Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity,

there are of course, an infinite number more"


..............................................................


Dr Strange corroborates this Marvel fact:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg

"the very Concept of Infinity is relative,

Numbers are Infinite, so are odd Numbers, yet by definition,

there are Twice as many Numbers as there are odd Numbers ...

One Infinity is included within a larger Infinity"