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I realize the trend to go "omfg teh saburs only, furce only, or all oout lol" for each versus thread is an attempt to make it more interesting. I also realize that making one versus match into three matches by means of subdividing it is kinda... illogical.

Take RotS Obi-Wan versus TPM Darth Maul.

Can you substantiate them against each other without using a fight in which they had full access to their combined Force/Saber arsenal?

Sure, you can make a good compelling argument as to why one might be better in the Force than the other, or better using their lightsaber, but is this really a logical argument drawing on the original material? To put it another way - would you ever try and substantiate a Jedi without the Force? Doesn't that take what they are, break it down to a hypothetical, non-canon example, and then pretend to argue it as though it's a reality?

Can you ever imagine a Jedi who absolutely wouldn't use the Force at all in a battle for his or her life? Or the opposite - can you imagine a Jedi who solely uses the Force to combat another Force user? I mean, they have glowsticks for a reason, right?

Of course, when you realize that any canon examples we use to further are arguments are unrestricted characters, why would we go the extra mile to argue only one facet of their ability as though it were definable? Would you argue "Obi-Wan as if he had one arm" as a rational stance? Or "Anakin had he not gone to the Dark Side"? No, you wouldn't, because those entities don't exist in canon.

It's the same way with "sabers only/force only" fights.

They don't exist. Jedi and Sith in canon materials routinely mix both for the best results. None of them limit themselves in a life-or-death situation to one or the other. Indeed, SW lore indicates that the Force is part of every movement, every moment of precognition, every parry, every superhuman leap. So you can't divorce the two easily if at all.

Additionally, Jedi as a whole don't use the Force offensively. They don't. An occasional Force push, or absorbing/deflecting lightning, perhaps. But they don't crush others with TK, or kill them using only the Force. They use the Force offensive maneuvers to supplement their existing lightsaber skills. And since the Jedi rarely work to actively kill their opponents, they are less inclined to use TK to kill or maim an opponent. This makes them always at a disadvantage against a Sith or Dark Sider, since they will use everything they can force-wise to overcome the enemy while using their lightsaber to devastating effect.

This kind of behavior is typical of SW lore. So the idea that you can divorce Force ability from Saber ability is foolish. Even offensive maneuvers cannot be substantiated once you bring Jedi into the equation because it involves a level of speculation that you are no longer arguing the original example.

So bottom line - the trend of "saburs only, furce only, other lol" is ridiculous. You're limiting characters which you've never seen fight in a limited fashion. Don't do it. You wouldn't argue "Magneto without his mutant ability" or "Xavier if he had working legs". Don't do the same thing here.

Do something creative instead to make these threads interesting. Like running gauntlets, or arguing the aspects of tag-team, or something like the old SW Risk thread.

Thought i was the only one that thought that was ridiculous.

I've thought the same way for a while. I'd also like to see us take into account the combatent's personalities/allignments/values, instead of hypothesizing on what they might do... if they were opt to do it.

As well, I'd like to re-ask the question: If Yoda or Mace were in a saber-only fight, are they allowed the use of their respective Force abilities of Ataru and Vaapad/Shatterpoint?

Obviously. It is my understanding that "saber only" simply means that the combatants aren't allowed to use offensive or aggressive Force attacks. See: Mace vs. Sidious.

Vapaad is a saber style, so yes. Shatterpoint = Force ability, so no.

i've agreed with that pretty much all along. A Jedi without the force isn't much of a duelist, but a jedi without his saber isn't going to often have the offensive force weapons to defeat a sith. Simply because offensive force weapons apparently lead to the dark side.

I would think that active Force abilities would b forbidden, but seriously... when can a Jedi not use the Force? Unless you ran down the list of Force abilities they can and cannot use, both passive and active, there's no point in making a blanket "Cannot use Force" statement in the debate. It's not clear enough a stance to be argued.

Going back to your first point, perhaps we could introduce the idea of dedicated members making "What ifs" threads that not only show a versus fight, but write it out from start to finish and then allow that story or piece to be critiqued. That would make more sense. A lot of the Versus fights now are nebulous, but a hypothetical example could be argued very specifically, and wrongful assumptions could be laid to rest and the "Story" reworked into something more fitting.

Does that sound like a good idea?

sort of short fan fiction for each scenario?

Something like that. It gives us context to examine instead of a very vague "Well, what do you think would happen". This could prevent mistakes in someone's stance because they've already written it up in full first for review.

I like that idea. Though I doubt everyone will have the patience required to think such scenarios out.

i was about to answer a thread with this format, when everything i started to write down was instantly discredited in my mind with "i can't prove he can do that to that individual"
I for one like to put up a debate based more on facts than on speculation. For instance, i was thinking of the DE sidious vs. Yoda, Kenobi, Mace, and Anakin thread awhile back, and in a scenario like that, Gideon would write something along the lines of

"The jedi run toward sidious, sidious lifts his right hand, and Kenobi and Anakin both crumple to the floor, necks broken"

which is Gideon's viewpoint of that fight, which i respect, though i disagree with. however, i would feel inclined to mention that i disagree with THAT part of the fight, and it would instead by once again reduced to the same,
no he couldn't, yes he could argument we were having before in that thread.

If we were to go with the format mentioned, we would need some rules, or established order of doing things.

Well, you'd be wrong. Dooku was able to manhandle Obi-Wan and Anakin when he brought his Force powers into play at the point of desperation. Sidious, who at this point is much more powerful than Dooku, could do the same.

Hell, not even Nai argued against that point. I believe his expression was that he'd turn them into "newbcubes and hang them from the mirror of a Star Destroyer" but that he couldn't win when confronted with Yoda and Windu while using that split second to own Kenobi and Skywalker.

perhaps. its been discussed.

Originally posted by truejedi
perhaps. its been discussed.

What has been discussed?

I've said that Sidious's victory in such a battle is dependent on a specific timeframe and that if it gets down to lightsabers, he's royally and thoroughly ****ed. But he's miles ahead of Skywalker and Kenobi (even together) in Force mastery and, no, that isn't up for discussion.

gideon, what i meant is, its been discussed on another thread. no need to rehash both sides here, but since you insist, i don't disagree with you that he is miles ahead of obi and anakin. i know this. However, my argument is still pertinent. i don't think he could destroy both of them with the force SIMULTANEOUSLY, INSTANTANEOUSLY, and across the room when all either one of them could possibly be expecting from him is a force attack. In each instance that Dooku took Kenobi out of various fights, he did so when he was within saber reach. Undoubtedly, large portions of Kenobi's attention was diverted by the blade of the lightsaber that he had to concentrate so hard to avoid. (dooku was a master swordsman after all)
So when someone argues that Kenobi "was distracted" its not true, because his attention was FULLY on dooku, but in another sense, he very possibly WAS distracted from defending himself from attacks through the force. It was taking large portions of his effort to defend himself from Dooku's saber.

Also, when does Dooku own ROTS anakin with the force? A force kick, i believe is what sent him into the wall. Now, unless Sidious can kick anakin from across the room, what evidence is there to suggest that anakin would be as susceptible to a force attack as kenobi?

finally, i don't dispute the superiority of sidious. no question. miles ahead. I just don't think he can permanently disable Obi-wan AND anakin in the split second or so it takes Yoda and Mace to arrive to kill him... That's open for discussion because its impossible to prove otherwise.

(and just to be clear, i never made THAT particular argument on the other thread anyway... mostly my point was that while sidious was killing kenobi and anakin, he would be killed by Yoda and Mace. probably the other two would die, but the time it took would mean the end of sidious.... )

Originally posted by truejedi
gideon, what i meant is, its been discussed on another thread. no need to rehash both sides here, but since you insist, i don't disagree with you that he is miles ahead of obi and anakin. i know this.

Excellent.



It's not.



Because a couple of extra feet will exponentially diminish Sidious's command of the Force? Let's not be silly here. Is it your contention that none of them would try to move in for the kill? It seems that their best shot of survival is to force this into a lightsaber engagement. Maintaining distance would only make them susceptible to the Emperor's greater command of the Force. Or is it just that, for the purposes of your argument, they're far enough away that Sidious can't do anything to them but close enough that they can engage the Dark Lord at a "split second"? Single standards or none at all, please.



Which would make a Force maneuver even more dangerous, don't you think, when one's opponent is close enough to hack away with a burning glow rod?



And Dooku wouldn't have been equally distracted? And this distractions somehow won't manifest in a duel with the Emperor? They'll cover themselves in Force energy and keep their distance? Or will they "cover the ground in a split second" to kill their enemy? Make up your mind, please.



And you neglect the fact that it was Dooku who was on the defensive, not only deflecting attacks from Kenobi but Skywalker as well. You'd have us all believe that Kenobi was the only one "distracted" and giving "effort." Except that isn't the case. Despite being pushed back, on the verge of desperation, and outnumbered, Dooku floored Obi-Wan twice -- the second time of which he was able to hurl Skywalker aside.



That's right. A Force-assisted kick.



Well, that he couldn't overpower Obi-Wan Kenobi in a Force push contest is telling enough. Skywalker's command of the Force is no greater than Kenobi's, and if that is your contention, it's you're burden to prove.



You calculate your miles in an odd fashion. You cite that he's miles ahead of them (really, he trounces Dooku) and yet not good enough to overpower them both, even though his lesser apprentice did it on the verge of exhaustion, desperation, and being pushed on the defensive.



See, this is what I don't understand. Obi-Wan and Anakin, you say, will stay back and apparently use the Force in an unprecedented manner to protect themselves from the Emperor (since mere feet is enough to render the Sith's superiority null) and yet Yoda and Mace can cover the ground "in a split second" and own him. That doesn't fly. The only individual threat is Yoda. Mace requires time to immerse himself in Vaapad to match Sidious's superiority. A split second wasn't enough for him to do that with RotS Sidious. And even when he does match him, it's only on a physical plane. Force-wise, he's still weaker. And Yoda alone is no match for the reborn Emperor.



Except that you haven't illustrated this. I'd rather not get into another heated argument with you, but you appear to be using some double standards and direct shading of fact, especially regarding distance, the circumstances of their fight with Dooku, and Anakin's strength.

you misunderstand one point of mine, should clear up any apparent double standards. The whole group starts across the room. In your scenario, while they close the gap, sidious kills kenobi and anakin. so it stands to reason, they would be killed before they ever came within range of a melee attack. If not, while he was delivering the attack that kills them, sidious would most definitly be killed, because of the presence of yoda and mace, so he would not deign it wise to deliver such an attack.

Make sense? The only time an attack as you described would be probable would be before they arrived at sidious, while they were TRYING to close the distance. In that case, they wouldn't be distracted by his lightsaber YET because they weren't close enough. If they were within saberrange, and were trying to defend themselves, then yes, they would both be wide open to a debilitating attack from sidious, but it would never come considering he would have to protect himself.

and also, a force assisted kick is quite different than a force attack. Dooku still had to have the melee opening to deliver the kick. I was under the impression that almost every kick and punch delivered by jedi, as well as walking and dueling was all force-assisted.

i'm not in the mood for a heated argument, haven't been in awhile, so you won't get that from me.

Pre post disclaimer:
After re-reading this, it seems clunky and repetitive. Sorry if TJ covered it already, but I think that the distinction between defense while engaged in and out of saber combat is an important one.

Originally posted by Gideon
Excellent.

It's not.
I've noticed a tendency on your part to attack the credibility of anyone disagreeing with you. Not with points, but with a blanket statement about the validity of their opinion.
Just saying.


Originally posted by Gideon

Because a couple of extra feet will exponentially diminish Sidious's command of the Force?
I may be ignorant of a fight altering setting, but wouldn't the combatants start more than 'a few feet' away from each other?

Originally posted by Gideon
Let's not be silly here. Is it your contention that none of them would try to move in for the kill? It seems that their best shot of survival is to force this into a lightsaber engagement. Maintaining distance would only make them susceptible to the Emperor's greater command of the Force.
The only cases of Sith Lightning being successfully blocked at close range have been Yoda (in the Senate arena) and Mace (with Vapaad). Mace's situation is an exception- he used a unique mindset/metaphysical boost to achieve his block of close range lightning. Yoda has centuries of study- as far as I know his ability to deflect lightning with his bare hands has only been matched by Starkiller. Obviously, Anakin and Obi-Wan would be at a disadvantage as far as defense from Force Lightning is concerned. For any other tactic, the distance would either be a non-issue or a benefit to the two Jedi's concentration: Giving them both time to prepare a Force barrier or some sort of defense. They would not be 'busy' fighting for their life. Meanwhile, Yoda and Mace would be rushing Sidious, giving him only a few moments to overpower the pair.

Originally posted by Gideon

Or is it just that, for the purposes of your argument, they're far enough away that Sidious can't do anything to them but close enough that they can engage the Dark Lord at a "split second"? Single standards or none at all, please.
Not far enough away so as to be able to do nothing but far enough away that their Force defenses would be active. Distance does not diminish the power of a Force attack, but it certainly seems to aid in Force defense. When Kenobi is Force kicked, he is close enough for the attack to fall. In the novel he is fighting saber to saber when Dooku 'flicks his wrist' and sends him flying back. Earlier in the war, Kenobi had been able to protect himself from the Count's attacks when there was some distance between them. (AotC) While they are on the defensive, Mace and Yoda are rushing. (in this scenario) They are fast. Sidious simply would not have a long period of time- the deaths of Kenobi and Skywalker would have to be nearly instantaneous. The crux of our argument is that TJ and I don't believe that Sidious can instakill. You obviously do.

Originally posted by Gideon

Which would make a Force maneuver even more dangerous, don't you think, when one's opponent is close enough to hack away with a burning glow rod? This works both ways. Defending against said attack would also be more difficult. Especially because the Jedi is not the aggressor, and must prepare/save energy/attention for that aspect of defense.


Originally posted by Gideon

And Dooku wouldn't have been equally distracted? And this distractions somehow won't manifest in a duel with the Emperor? They'll cover themselves in Force energy and keep their distance? Or will they "cover the ground in a split second" to kill their enemy? Make up your mind, please.
Kenobi's style is primarily defensive- the Count would not have to devote so much attention to preparing a defense from a totally new avenue of attack. Get it straight- Ani/Obi stay back, and try to defend themselves. Mace and Yoda bum rush Sidious. Once his attention is centered on the attacking pair, the Duo is able to join the fight. By staying back, they can focus their entire attention/ all of their energy on Force defense, rather than dividing their focus.


Originally posted by Gideon

And you neglect the fact that it was Dooku who was on the defensive, not only deflecting attacks from Kenobi but Skywalker as well. You'd have us all believe that Kenobi was the only one "distracted" and giving "effort." Except that isn't the case. Despite being pushed back, on the verge of desperation, and outnumbered, Dooku floored Obi-Wan twice -- the second time of which he was able to hurl Skywalker aside.
The first separation seems to come at a lull in the fight, while the camera is on Palpatine's face we hear a momentary quiet- no strikes are made. Then we cut to Obi Wan getting floored by Dooku. There is no indication that Dooku is still being pressed by either jedi. Actually, Skywalker is the one to get kicked- Kenobi gets Force crushed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ouk3dh_85Ro
It is at about 40 seconds. (sorry for not embedding- it was disabled)
Kenobi is only Force crushed while he is on defense in Saber combat.


Originally posted by Gideon


Well, that he couldn't overpower Obi-Wan Kenobi in a Force push contest is telling enough. Skywalker's command of the Force is no greater than Kenobi's, and if that is your contention, it's you're burden to prove.
In fact, neither one has been shown to be particularly 'succeptable' as the only time we have seen one of them attacked long range via the force (AotC- Force lightning) Kenobi blocked it easily enough. Anakin in that situation was focusing on sabers- blindly charging Dooku. That would not happen against Sidious.


Originally posted by Gideon

You calculate your miles in an odd fashion. You cite that he's miles ahead of them (really, he trounces Dooku) and yet not good enough to overpower them both, even though his lesser apprentice did it on the verge of exhaustion, desperation, and being pushed on the defensive.
It really isn't very hard. In the midst of combat, while the Jedi are focused on saber technique, they are in danger. When they are at a distance, ready for an attack, they are fine. In our scenario they are at a distance, so would probably be able to mount a defense.


Originally posted by Gideon

See, this is what I don't understand. Obi-Wan and Anakin, you say, will stay back and apparently use the Force in an unprecedented manner to protect themselves from the Emperor (since mere feet is enough to render the Sith's superiority null) and yet Yoda and Mace can cover the ground "in a split second" and own him. That doesn't fly. The only individual threat is Yoda. Mace requires time to immerse himself in Vaapad to match Sidious's superiority. A split second wasn't enough for him to do that with RotS Sidious. And even when he does match him, it's only on a physical plane. Force-wise, he's still weaker. And Yoda alone is no match for the reborn Emperor.

"Mere feet"? The distance would be greater than that, unless I missed some specification. Mace was able to block Sidious's blinding speed, even before he was fully immersed. With Yoda as a backup, he would not hesitate to rush the Sith Lord. The distance would hardly take a full 20 seconds, even a 100m race is finished in about 9 seconds. For a Jedi it would be even faster. The distance would be enough to put Kenobi on form (and since you've argued that Anakin=Kenobi in Force mastery, Anakin would be on guard too) while Mace and Yoda rush. Even if it took a full 5 seconds, Sidious would be hard pressed to overpower two Jedi knights in such a short time frame.
Originally posted by Gideon

Except that you haven't illustrated this. I'd rather not get into another heated argument with you, but you appear to be using some double standards and direct shading of fact, especially regarding distance, the circumstances of their fight with Dooku, and Anakin's strength.
Don't call double standards if there aren't any. Distance helps Force defense. Kenobi could block Dooku's lightning (with some distance between them) even in Attack of the Clones. Jedi move quickly. Mace and Yoda would cover the ground very quickly. One of the Junior Jedi might die, but to overpower both just seems outrageous.

You'll both have rebuttals tomorrow. But keep the following in mind:

1.) Your premise that Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to deflect Force lightning from Count Dooku isn't applicable here for numerous reasons:

a.) Count Dooku is weaker than Darth Sidious circa Revenge of the Sith. How do you think he compares to the reborn Emperor?

b.) Darth Sidious was capable of disarming Yoda with a single gout of Force lightning and nearly killed Mace Windu despite the fact that the Jedi was the beneficiary of a metaphysical superconductive loop, vastly superior physical conditioning and body mass, and the advantages afforded by a lightsaber and greater leverage.

c.) I never said that he wouldn't be able to possibly deflect Force lightning. But how will a lightsaber and distance protect him from telekinesis?

2.) Opponents typically don't start out duels kilometers away or in hardened bunkers laced with cortosis. In all of the duels in the movies and in the various versus games, they are within feet of one another.



3.) Palpatine, circa Revenge of the Sith, was capable of killing three of the Order's most celebrated swordsmen "before Windu realized what has happened" (Complete Visual Dictionary) and "with blinding speed" (Star Wars databank), et cetera. Palpatine put Windu on the defensive and the latter was only able to match the speed of the former once he immersed himself in Vaapad, which isn't anything approaching instantaneous. The version of Palpatine they now face is more powerful than the last by a considerable margin.

Conclusion: Yoda and Mace are fast. But Palpatine is faster than Mace by a ridiculous amount. You and Truejedi seem to have this idea that Windu will be automatically immersed in Vaapad, able to strike Sidious before he can blink. It's wishful thinking and you're deliberately twisting the circumstances to put Sidious at a complete disadvantage. The only one comparable to the Emperor in speed is Yoda. Not Windu. Not Anakin. Not Obi-Wan. And he's not strong enough to kill Palpatine alone. Do you understand?

That is obvious and that is why I may or may not attack your credibility. You put two and two together and somehow get five.

Edit: Perfect example:



Who says? Have Anakin and Sidious fought before? Is he suddenly aware of what he can do?

You don't get to dictate the terms and the exact circumstances of the fight. Everything that I said Sidious can do is based on evidence. The underlined shit is pure speculation without the basis of fact that you're passing off as the gospel, trying to deliberately place Sidious in an obscenely disadvantageous situation that wasn't specified by the thread author.

I mean, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but come on. You're essentially saying "Well, Anakin and Obi-Wan are positioned at the very back so as to avoid death!!1!" and "Yoda and Mace bumrush Palpatine in .4 seconds and he dies before his nerves allow him to register a thought (never mind that he's faster than both of them)!!1!" and "Obi-Wan's ability to deflect Force lightning from Dooku means he'll be able to deflect Force lightning and telekinesis from Dooku's much more powerful Master!!1!"

It's completely ridiculous.

Originally posted by Gideon
I mean, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but come on. You're essentially saying "Well, Anakin and Obi-Wan are positioned at the very back so as to avoid death!!1!" and "Yoda and Mace bumrush Palpatine in .4 seconds and he dies before his nerves allow him to register a thought (never mind that he's faster than both of them)!!1!" and "Obi-Wan's ability to deflect Force lightning from Dooku means he'll be able to deflect Force lightning and telekinesis from Dooku's much more powerful Master!!1!"

It's completely ridiculous.

i didn't say that at all... but oh well. i really don't want to get into this again.

Wow, this has turned in to a re-match of the Sidious vs. Yoda, Kenobi, Mace and Anakin thread.

nope, seriously, i'm not going there again. i'm done posting on the subject. Whatever i post just gets misrepresented anyway.

Originally posted by truejedi
i didn't say that at all... but oh well. i really don't want to get into this again.

I was referring strictly to Red Nemesis, not you. Don't worry about it. You and I have an understanding: we just disagree.

He'll agree with that. Paradoxes for everyone!

well, i think the last few pages makes my point for me. we couldn't come to any better conclusion if we were writing out the scenarios than we currently do, because disagreements, based on opinion, and different interpretations of events still happen.

You and I have a disagreement purely on time. But Sidious is faster than all of his enemies. It is your contention that he can't defeat the lesser Jedi in the time that it would take the greater Jedi to engage him, but he is faster than even Yoda. Mace isn't a threat with the Force nor is he able to match the Emperor's greater physical attributes until he immerses himself in Vaapad. In terms of quick and instant attacks, the Emperor possesses a clear advantage over Kenobi, Skywalker, and Windu. Only Yoda compares.

What Red Nemesis is doing is completely fabricating random circumstances and passing them off as fact. That Sidious is capable of utterly annihilating Kenobi and Skywalker has logical basis. What Red is saying does not, hence my issue with him. And he's not going to get a response until he drops such pretense. He's not in a position to dictate the circumstances of the duel to anyone.

Originally posted by Gideon


What Red Nemesis is doing is completely fabricating random circumstances and passing them off as fact. That Sidious is capable of utterly annihilating Kenobi and Skywalker has logical basis. What Red is saying does not, hence my issue with him. And he's not going to get a response until he drops such pretense. He's not in a position to dictate the circumstances of the duel to anyone.

To my knowledge, I have not yet fabricated an event, or added extraneous factors through my interpretation. That said, I was trying to twist established cannon to suit my purposes. I simply don't like the idea that one force user can tool the best the Order can throw at it. I suppose that this was the reason the other thread lasted so long. (25 pages!)

I'll back off, but I still don't like the idea. Sidious's win is counter intuitive. I just don't like it at all.

Me < Cannon facts.
Cannon facts =/= my argument.
my argument =/= valid.

It would be nice if there was a 'sweet spot' though. An ideal place or set of mitigating circumstances that would let the Jedi win...

There is. Once Windu gets all Vaapad-ed, the fight is over for Sidious.