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The Old Republic Vs. The Yuzzan Vong

You would have to be more specific on the "old republic," like when it is and who is alive.

and i would pick the vong anyway. No way the Old republic is able to catch up with the technology curve.

Originally posted by truejedi
and i would pick the vong anyway. No way the Old republic is able to catch up with the technology curve.

Well I believe in LOTF (and maybe in NJO and DN also) the PT era republic is also referred to as the "old republic". But he is probably referring to the KOTOR era in which case I can't see the Republic winning.

The PT era was still the Old Republic, and I would say that the PT would beat the Vong.

Old Republic would win. Their huge number of Jedi knights, and cohesive control structure would react to a menace in the outer rim far before the New Republic did. Yoda Vs. Shimirra might be a good thread. Or Veregre vs. Onnimi (sp?)

The old republic couldn't even make up its mind to fight the mandalorians whose entire goal was to pick a fight remember?

I was talking about the PT Old Republic. Revan's Era would get stomped.

well if revan was leading the army.....

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
You would have to be more specific on the "old republic," like when it is and who is alive. Also if they have Clone Troopers. And ANAKIN.

Originally posted by JesterTheFool
well if revan was leading the army.....

That's only half of an idea.

If Revan was leading the army, then ............

WHAT?

He would be able to overcome the massive technological and numerical disadvantage? He would instantly be able to overcome the 'NON FORCE CONNECTED' Vong advantage? He would be able to mimic the Skywalkers' feats? (e.g: moving black holes, developing empathy with wildly different creatures, etc?) He would be able to harness Karen Traviss's Mandalorian Fetish? What, precisely, would he bring to the table that wasn't provided faster and better by the NJO participants?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That's only half of an idea.

If Revan was leading the army, then ............

WHAT?

He would be able to overcome the massive technological and numerical disadvantage? He would instantly be able to overcome the 'NON FORCE CONNECTED' Vong advantage? He would be able to mimic the Skywalkers' feats? (e.g: moving black holes, developing empathy with wildly different creatures, etc?) He would be able to harness Karen Traviss' Mandalorian Fetish? What, precisely, would he bring to the table that wasn't provided faster and better by the NJO participants?

Fixed that for you... if it ends in a "S" an extra one is grammatically incorrect.

No version of the Old Republic would stand a chance against the Vong. Their technology just can't keep up.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Also if they have Clone Troopers. And ANAKIN. The NR had its own Anakin. And a Jacen and Jaina. And a Luke.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Fixed that for you... if it ends in a "S" an extra one is grammatically incorrect.
HOLY CRAP!

I don't think I've ever made that mistake before. I guess I have to go back to proofreading my posts. Typing fast has many drawbacks.

May Snuggles the doomkitty have mercy on my soul.


Seriously, I don't think that I've ever been this embarrassed.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
HOLY CRAP!

I don't think I've ever made that mistake before. I guess I have to go back to proofreading my posts. Typing fast has many drawbacks.

May Snuggles the doomkitty have mercy on my soul.


Seriously, I don't think that I've ever been this embarrassed.

I'm just getting back at the man (or woman, I am uncertain of your gender) who calls himself a Grammar Nazi.

you know, it's really okay to mess up on grammar every once in awhile. its not a thesis paper, just a star wars forum. lol.

Originally posted by Autokrat
I'm just getting back at the man (or woman, I am uncertain of your gender) who calls himself a Grammar Nazi.

There was a time when that title applied to me. Sadly, that time has passed. I will have to make up for it by being, if possible, more insufferable in other threads. That will make people like me again.


You have no idea how much that extra 's' hurts right now.

Originally posted by truejedi
you know, it's really okay to mess up on grammar every once in awhile. its not a thesis paper, just a star wars forum. lol.

Hey man, I was bored...

Originally posted by truejedi
you know, it's really okay to mess up on grammar every once in awhile. its not a thesis paper, just a star wars forum. lol.

Yeah, but I've made such an issue of it that any lapse on my part becomes hypocrisy.

yeah, i was just playing, because red is usually the one fixing other's grammar. Which, i really don't have a problem with either. Now, a couple of years ago there were people who thought they could undo your entire argument because of a grammatical or spelling error with brilliant statements such as. "why should i listen to that when you don't even know how to spell....(insert commonly typoed word here) "

Originally posted by Autokrat
Fixed that for you... if it ends in a "S" an extra one is grammatically incorrect. Not according to Elements of Style.

Hey revan was a military genius, sure the republic may be more than 4000 years before the vong came and other than revan there wasnt exactly a lot of extremely poweful jedi at there disposal.... im not helping my point am i


If revan gets to keep his star forge then u can give the republic a slight hope of winning. And if this republic gets to have the likes of all the sith that were around that time too even though they dont file under the republic. And maybe a little mandalorian back up.

Republic+Revan+Exile+Sion+Kreia+Nihilus+Mandaloria
ns+star forge>vong? maybe

im just throwing out random ideas

Originally posted by Faunus
Not according to Elements of Style.

What?! *Whips out Strunk and White*

DP

Damn... I was wrong... and it's on the freaking first page too!

Originally posted by truejedi
yeah, i was just playing, because red is usually the one fixing other's grammar. Which, i really don't have a problem with either. Now, a couple of years ago there were people who thought they could undo your entire argument because of a grammatical or spelling error with brilliant statements such as. "why should i listen to that when you don't even know how to spell....(insert commonly typoed word here) "

Any chance that you know where I can find the oldest "please use good grammar" (yes I know...) thread? I know there was one in the oldest few pages of the VS forum, but I just can't find it anymore. That thread makes me want to quote Kreia Some of them were really, really petty.

Originally posted by JesterTheFool
Hey revan was a military genius, sure the republic may be more than 4000 years before the vong came and other than revan there wasnt exactly a lot of extremely poweful jedi at there disposal.... im not helping my point am i No. No you are not. You have only highlighted the aforementioned technological disparity between eras. Vong win.

Originally posted by JesterTheFool

If revan gets to keep his star forge then u can give the republic a slight hope of winning. And if this republic gets to have the likes of all the sith that were around that time too even though they dont file under the republic. And maybe a little mandalorian back up.
Why would the Republic help the Sith? There is no history of them working together.
Originally posted by JesterTheFool

Republic+Revan+Exile+Sion+Kreia+Nihilus+Mandaloria
ns+star forge>vong? maybe

Except that these people never worked together. It would be like saying 'All of the Jedi that ever lived during the 2000 year reign of the New Republic get to fight'. Sion, Kreia and Nihilus would probably attack the Republic, actually helping the Vong. The Mandalorians just got defeated, and are largely scattered. Revan era democracy would be annihilated by the Vong.

like i said just throwing out random ideas

No, there is zero chance that any group before the Empire would stand a dough nuts chance at a weight loss convention of surviving

i still like my theory that Revan sensed the onslaught of the Vong, (because of the coralskipper that Mandalore mentions) and that is why he went into the unknown region. Doesn't it say somewhere that the Chiss had fought the Vong for years before they ever showed up in New Republic space, or something like that?

I never understood how the Vong reportedly spent millenia in the void between galaxies, yet still had that one ship 4000 years before their invasion that could make the trip no problem.

well, its a species large invasion fleet. If they truly spent millenia (plural) in transit, then maybe it would make sense to have a scout ship 4000 years in advance. Maybe the Star Wars galaxy wasn't the only one they were checking out.

oh, and sidious knew they were coming, right? that was why the massive fleet build-ups and his attempt to bring the entire galaxy under complete control in such a small time. I read all this (and the Chiss thing) so long ago i can't remember the source, if anyone can remind me.

I'm wondering though, if the Vong actually took thousands of years to travel between the galaxies or could they come and go between them rather quickly. If it's the former, then the existence of a Vong ship that could travel that fast while none other can is rather absurd. Likewise as unbelievable is a Vong pilot with a long enough lifespan to make the journey there (and back, presumably).

thats true, but do we know the life-span of a Vong? Or, the skipper could from a smaller ship that left whatever galaxy they came from.... i'm thinking 6000 years before they began their invasion. It would make sense, since the vong were a warring species, it was their way of life, how they pleased the gods. They would constantly be looking for new places to conquer. So say that skipper was the first one to find intelligent life in the galaxy, one of many many galaxies they were checking, and returned to tell the vong they had found something to conquer? 2000 years to get to our galaxy, 2000 years to get back, 2000 years for the Vong to arrive.

a ship can last that long?
amazing

Republic takes this: powerful military ten thousand Jedi quadrillions of clones. come on

3,000,000 clones. not quadrillions.

Sadly. Even the quintillions of droids wouldn't do it. The Clone Wars Movie/Series cemented them as the single dumbest creations in the mythos. Yes more than Jar Jar.

And yeah, the idea of a ship (just a ship, no pilot) scouting things out and moving around in suspended animation is feasible. Canderous did say it was encased in frozen methane.

i've always thought that what revan went to look for,the true sith, who "distort the force with their prescense" or something like that, sounded a lot like what the Vong do, being right there, but no one being able to sense them in the force.

Originally posted by truejedi
3,000,000 clones. not quadrillions.

I never quite understood that. The combined armed forces of US and China top that number and yet these clones are expected to defend an entire galaxy with quintillions of people?

Originally posted by Autokrat
I never quite understood that. The combined armed forces of US and China top that number and yet these clones are expected to defend an entire galaxy with quintillions of people?
Blame Karen Traviss for that.

Originally posted by Autokrat
I never quite understood that. The combined armed forces of US and China top that number and yet these clones are expected to defend an entire galaxy with quintillions of people?

Yes. Yes they are.

That's really all we can say.

Originally posted by truejedi
3,000,000 clones. not quadrillions.
Quote from Dooku "We outnumber them a hundred to 1" quintillions of battle droids +T-canon quote= quadrillions of clones, finally killing that Karen Traviss statement
And yes the Republic takes this. 10,000 Jedi, Kuat defense fleet composed of dreadnoughts capable of taking on a thousand Recuscant-class light destroyers, quadrillions of clones, thousands of Venators, and Victories=crispy Vong

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Quote from Dooku "We outnumber them a hundred to 1" quintillions of battle droids +T-canon quote= quadrillions of clones, finally killing that Karen Traviss statement
And yes the Republic takes this. 10,000 Jedi, Kuat defense fleet composed of dreadnoughts capable of taking on a thousand Recuscant-class light destroyers, quadrillions of clones, thousands of Venators, and Victories=crispy Vong

Wow, no. You're a total fool.

The Yuuzahn Vong primary ship, the Miid Ro'ik is more powerful than a ISD in a fight. The ISD is FAR more powerful than a Venator. Miid Ro'im would literall tear Venator's to shreads. To demonstrate,

a Venator has twenty turbolaser cannons. Sounds pretty good but an ISD has SIXTY turbolasers. Add to that the fact that Imperial turbolaser technology "recycles" power three times as fast as prior turbolaser technology and you find out that a single ISD has the turbolaser firepower of NINE Venators COMBINED! A Miid Ro"ik is even more powerful than that.

Next, remember that the Yuuzhan Vong have tons of an even more powerful ship, the Uro'ik v'alh. These are considerably stronger than even Miid Ro'ik and also number in the hundreds or thousands.

Also, there are the Worldships, which the Republic doesn't have a fair shot against.


On the ground things go in the Vong's favor as well. Remember that the Vong armor is more or less impervious to blaster fire. The Vong also have massive numbers and better assault weaponry.


If you doubt what I'm saying, just think about this. During their invasion of the galaxy the Vong single-handily took on the following:

New Republic
Imperial Remnant
Chiss
Hutts
Hapans
Mandalorians
Yevetha (who alone had more than ten thousand capital ships)


The Old Republic would get raped.



EDIT: I would also like to add that it did take the Vong thousands of years to get to the galaxy. There is no proof necessarily that it was a Yuuzhan Vong ship that Canderous incountered. Living doesn't automatically mean Vong. They had been outside the galaxy for about fifty years, wating because they were afraid to fight the Empire at it's peak.

Also, the Emperor I don't believe was the one who knew about the Vong, it was Thrawn who had encountered them in the Unknown Regions and was planning to build up a force with which to defeat them.

Hell, the Vong were frightened of the Empire even post-DE, hence why they arranged for Nom Anor to arrange the destruction of the Imperial Interim Ruling Council and Xandel Carvius.

And yes, Palpatine was aware of the Yuuzhan Vong, at least a couple of years after the Invasion of Naboo. It was the reason he attempted to destroy Outbound Flight.

Oh okay I wasn't aware of that.

Regardless, the Old Republic get raped

No, the Republic fleet will handle them, thousands of Venators. The Vong was scared shitless of the remains of the Imperial fleet. If the Vong were so powerful, why not attack the Empire right after the Clone Wars. With the shipyards at Kuat, Rothana, and Fondor the Vong will soon find themselves overwhelmed. BTW: the Republic had access to Imperator and Tector class cruisers in the Clone Wars

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No, the Republic fleet will handle them, thousands of Venators. The Vong was scared shitless of the remains of the Imperial fleet. If the Vong were so powerful, why not attack the Empire right after the Clone Wars. With the shipyards at Kuat, Rothana, and Fondor the Vong will soon find themselves overwhelmed. BTW: the Republic had access to Imperator and Tector class cruisers in the Clone Wars

Maybe the reason they didn't attack after the Clone Wars is because they weren't ready plus they were scared of the Empire because of how organize it was compared to the republic.

On another note I wish there was information on Vader's thoughts of the Vong. If the emeperor knew of them then there is a good chance Vader would know something of the vong given his place as the emperor's apprentice and his place in the imperial militarty.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Maybe the reason they didn't attack after the Clone Wars is because they weren't ready plus they were scared of the Empire because of how organize it was compared to the republic.

On another note I wish there was information on Vader's thoughts of the Vong. If the emeperor knew of them then there is a good chance Vader would know something of the vong given his place as the emperor's apprentice and his place in the imperial militarty. He may be second, but that doesn't make him privvy to everything.

The Old Republic had an organized command structure including the Jedi Order. Masters Kazdan Paratus, Windu, and Yoda have taken on armies of battle droids. The Vong on the ground will get frippled, and in space Mandator-class Star Dreadnoughts, Tector class star cruisers, and Imperial/Imperator-class Star Destroyers, not to mention other classes of massive battlecruisers that the Republic has access to after Palpatine took all sectorial fleets and added them to the Republic's already impressive armada. The sheer number of Republic vessels will thrash the Vong. Millions of CIS ships: Lets say four million warships. Even if all the warships were Recuscants(which they weren't because several Munificients, Providences, and Lucrehulk cruisers) it would take 666,666 republic Venators to counter the Seperatist threat.

I'm not actually sure what it is you're trying to prove here.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Old Republic had an organized command structure including the Jedi Order.
I assume that we are talking about the PT era. Even if we posit that the Republic has full use of its peak Clone Army, (topping out at 3,000,000 clones) and fully repaired fleet, there is no way that they can cope with the Vong's superior firepower. Military technology increased drastically during the Empire. The Acclamator class, only a transport is less than one tenth of the Star Destroyer's size. This would imply that the Star Destroyer is at least ten times more powerful, ignoring that the Star Destroyer is a warship- not a transport. Star Destroyers struggled with Vong capital ships. The Vong bio-technology is beyond the ability of the OR to defeat. Even a tenfold increase in power was hard pressed to contend with Vong bioships.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Masters Kazdan Paratus, Windu, and Yoda have taken on armies of battle droids. The Vong on the ground will get frippled,
Vong Warrior >>>> Battle droid- especially as depicted in the CWC. With the disadvantage of facing a sentient non-force sensitive, The Jedi will have the same problems that the NJO initially did.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

and in space Mandator-class Star Dreadnoughts, Tector class star cruisers, and Imperial/Imperator-class Star Destroyers, not to mention other classes of massive battlecruisers that the Republic has access to after Palpatine took all sectorial fleets and added them to the Republic's already impressive armada.
There will be no Imperial class ships: They haven't been built yet! Admittedly, my knowledge of specs in the SW universe is sketchy, but this is the Old Republic fighting, not Pre-ANH Empire.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The sheer number of Republic vessels will thrash the Vong. Millions of CIS ships: Lets say four million warships. Even if all the warships were Recuscants(which they weren't because several Munificients, Providences, and Lucrehulk cruisers) it would take 666,666 republic Venators to counter the Seperatist threat.
I don't know what you mean in the last sentence, but Sheer Numbers would not be able to overcome the Vong. With lasers, shields, and engines 1/10 as powerful, the OR ships would be better off colliding with the Vong Capital ships, but they would just get eaten by a black hole. The Vong have massive naval superiority. The Jedi's disadvantage in personal combat (they rely on the force ) negates the OR's best hope: that the Jedi Order's numbers (greater than the NJO's membership) will be able to swing the ground battles, at least. They can't.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Old Republic had an organized command structure including the Jedi Order. Masters Kazdan Paratus, Windu, and Yoda have taken on armies of battle droids. The Vong on the ground will get frippled, and in space Mandator-class Star Dreadnoughts, Tector class star cruisers, and Imperial/Imperator-class Star Destroyers, not to mention other classes of massive battlecruisers that the Republic has access to after Palpatine took all sectorial fleets and added them to the Republic's already impressive armada. The sheer number of Republic vessels will thrash the Vong. Millions of CIS ships: Lets say four million warships. Even if all the warships were Recuscants(which they weren't because several Munificients, Providences, and Lucrehulk cruisers) it would take 666,666 republic Venators to counter the Seperatist threat.

Wow did you even read my post?

Where the **** did you get the 4 million CIS capital ships number?

Half the ships you mentioned aren't even Republic ships, they're Imperial, smartguy.

why would the CIS ships even count? they weren't part of the Old republic. plus, they sucked. (outbound flight)

Originally posted by truejedi
why would the CIS ships even count? they weren't part of the Old republic. plus, they sucked. (outbound flight)

No, they didn't. Thrawn confessed in the novel that the Trade Federation ships would have obliterated his forces if not through his superior tactics.

well yeah, that was obvious. He had 6 little ships, and some fighters. It was a scouting party attacking an armada. They would have sucked beyond belief if they had actually lost to Thrawn without his superior tactics, as it was, they just plain sucked.
To be clear: He was outnumbered by what should have been IMPOSSIBLE odds. If they were human ships, they would have been impossible, but many of Thrawns tactics were getting the droids to attack themselves, and crash into their own. So they sucked. His superior tactics would never have worked with human pilots flying each ship he faced.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Wow did you even read my post?

Where the **** did you get the 4 million CIS capital ships number?

Half the ships you mentioned aren't even Republic ships, they're Imperial, smartguy.
Read the Clone Wars visual guide and Revenge of the Sith ICS. The Imperial I-class SDs were available to the Republic under the name Imperator class, Tectors were also in the Clone fleet. Not 3 million clones quadrillions: as sourced above (quintillions of battle droids outnumbered a hundred to one.) The Revenge of the Sith ICS also states that there are millions of Separatist Warships detained in Outer Rim Campaigns(and yes it says capital ships.) Acclamators were not the backbone of the Republic fleet, Venators are, in Space Venators are supplemented by Acclamator-IIs as frigates, but they also had Imperatos, Tectors, Mandators, and Procurators in their fleets

Alright, fool, we'll try this again.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Read the Clone Wars visual guide and Revenge of the Sith ICS. The Imperial I-class SDs were available to the Republic under the name Imperator class, Tectors were also in the Clone fleet.

Thanks for displaying a fair bit of your ignorance. Show any instances of deployment of ISD's or Tectors.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda


Prove this. Where exactly did Dooku claim quintillions? Show that it wasn't a ridiculous display of hyperbole.

Take into consideration that fact that it took the Kaminoans TEN YEARS to produce 1.2 million clones. Where the hell would quadrillions have suddenly come from? Oh wait, they didn't. There was never that many clones.

And even if there was, it wouldn't matter, as the Vong would merely obliterate every Republic world from space, never engaging them on the ground.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda


Yes and millions must automatically refer to their combat ready ships? Hell no. The Empire has 25,000 ISD's and a thousand capital ship support craft to back each one up. Does that mean it would take the equivalent of 25,000,000 ISD's to defeat them? No. Use your brain, smart guy.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda


And we already know that a single ISD is as powerful as NINE Venators, and a Miid Ro'ik is more powerful than a ISD. And I've already informed you that the Miid Ro'ik isn't even the most powerful ship in the Vong fleet.


Dude, I had a lot of respect for you before this, but you've successfully tossed it down the shitter.

i'm really missing something i guess.... The Seperatists ships wouldn't count in the OR's forces... why do their numbers even matter?

Originally posted by truejedi
i'm really missing something i guess.... The Seperatists ships wouldn't count in the OR's forces... why do their numbers even matter?

Short answer: They don't.

Long answer: They don't, and it was a desperate tactic to try to muddy the issue with peripheral discussions. It worked.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Alright, fool, we'll try this again.



Thanks for displaying a fair bit of your ignorance. Show any instances of deployment of ISD's or Tectors.



Prove this. Where exactly did Dooku claim quintillions? Show that it wasn't a ridiculous display of hyperbole.

Take into consideration that fact that it took the Kaminoans TEN YEARS to produce 1.2 million clones. Where the hell would quadrillions have suddenly come from? Oh wait, they didn't. There was never that many clones.

And even if there was, it wouldn't matter, as the Vong would merely obliterate every Republic world from space, never engaging them on the ground.



Yes and millions must automatically refer to their combat ready ships? Hell no. The Empire has 25,000 ISD's and a thousand capital ship support craft to back each one up. Does that mean it would take the equivalent of 25,000,000 ISD's to defeat them? No. Use your brain, smart guy.



And we already know that a single ISD is as powerful as NINE Venators, and a Miid Ro'ik is more powerful than a ISD. And I've already informed you that the Miid Ro'ik isn't even the most powerful ship in the Vong fleet.


Dude, I had a lot of respect for you before this, but you've successfully tossed it down the shitter.
Quintillions is stated in General Grievous: Lord of War AND the ROTS Incredible cross sections. The 100 to 1 is stated by Dooku himself. Odds are he could have even been exaggerating so there at least quadrillions of Clones. Where is it stated that an ISD is as powerful as nine Venators. May I remind you a Venator holds 400 starfighters each. These are not pushovers, they swarm enemy fortifications with more than 4X as many starfighters as ISDs possess. The Miid Ro'ik capital ships would get shredded by Mandators and Procurators, an outdated Praetor-class star battlecruiser's single Ion Cannon, shredded the shields of an ISD in three shots. Imagine an armament of several of these. Mandators are in a similar league of SSDs. Lets use common sense. The Galaxy has quintillions of quintillions of inhabitants, how could the Republic police there worlds while simultaneously taking on the CIS. The Coruscant Guard as of 20BBY according to the new Clone Wars series was 100% Clone Unit. It could take a billion clones alone to police Coruscant with a population of 1 trillion. The US military has as many troops as a Galactic unit, please, common sense dictates otherwise

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Quintillions is stated in General Grievous: Lord of War AND the ROTS Incredible cross sections. The 100 to 1 is stated by Dooku himself. Odds are he could have even been exaggerating so there at least quadrillions of Clones.
Sorry, but Karen Traviss's canon number is 3,000,000. Traviss > you, as incredible as that may seem.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Where is it stated that an ISD is as powerful as nine Venators.
An ISD is ten times the size of an Acclamator class transport, and the ISD is a warship- not a carrier. It is more powerful, and has more guns. 10 X number of guns = 10 X firepower.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

May I remind you a Venator holds 400 starfighters each. These are not pushovers, they swarm enemy fortifications with more than 4X as many starfighters as ISDs possess. The Miid Ro'ik capital ships would get shredded by Mandators and Procurators, an outdated Praetor-class star battlecruiser's single Ion Cannon, shredded the shields of an ISD in three shots.
The Vong ships are stronger than ISDs. The comparison is not valid. Their strength in relation to Mandators is unknown- all we can proove is that they are stronger by a large degree.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Imagine an armament of several of these. Mandators are in a similar league of SSDs. Lets use common sense. The Galaxy has quintillions of quintillions of inhabitants, how could the Republic police there worlds while simultaneously taking on the CIS. The Coruscant Guard as of 20BBY according to the new Clone Wars series was 100% Clone Unit. It could take a billion clones alone to police Coruscant with a population of 1 trillion. The US military has as many troops as a Galactic unit, please, common sense dictates otherwise

Your 'common sense' < Karen Traviss. It is incredible, and it strains even my suspension of disbelief, but there you go. You can't argue with cannon.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Quintillions is stated in General Grievous: Lord of War AND the ROTS Incredible cross sections. The 100 to 1 is stated by Dooku himself. Odds are he could have even been exaggerating so there at least quadrillions of Clones. Where is it stated that an ISD is as powerful as nine Venators. May I remind you a Venator holds 400 starfighters each. These are not pushovers, they swarm enemy fortifications with more than 4X as many starfighters as ISDs possess. The Miid Ro'ik capital ships would get shredded by Mandators and Procurators, an outdated Praetor-class star battlecruiser's single Ion Cannon, shredded the shields of an ISD in three shots. Imagine an armament of several of these. Mandators are in a similar league of SSDs. Lets use common sense. The Galaxy has quintillions of quintillions of inhabitants, how could the Republic police there worlds while simultaneously taking on the CIS. The Coruscant Guard as of 20BBY according to the new Clone Wars series was 100% Clone Unit. It could take a billion clones alone to police Coruscant with a population of 1 trillion. The US military has as many troops as a Galactic unit, please, common sense dictates otherwise Common sense means nothing when fighting against canon. It's 3,000,000, accept it. It's a horrible figure and makes absolutely no bloody sense, but it's established fact. The Vong would obliterate any known military power sans the Empire. The IE doesn't count.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Sorry, but Karen Traviss's canon number is 3,000,000. Traviss > you, as incredible as that may seem.

An ISD is ten times the size of an Acclamator class transport, and the ISD is a warship- not a carrier. It is more powerful, and has more guns. 10 X number of guns = 10 X firepower.

The Vong ships are stronger than ISDs. The comparison is not valid. Their strength in relation to Mandators is unknown- all we can proove is that they are stronger by a large degree.


Your 'common sense' < Karen Traviss. It is incredible, and it strains even my suspension of disbelief, but there you go. You can't argue with cannon.
No Karen Traviss does not contradict the Clone Wars animated series it is T-Canon, right below the movies and far out of her league. I have 2 C-Canon souces that state quintillions of battle droids. Combined with the T-Canon 100 to 1 statement there are quadrillions of clones *see my Size of the Clone Army thread* You seem to mistake what I'm saying here, the Venator not the Acclamator was the default warship of the Republic, each ship carried 400 fighters. Mandators are not unknown we know they could take on a thousand Recuscants before being destroyed. Praetors were Clone War era battlecruisers who's one Ion Cannon took down the shields of an ISD with laughable ease, and who's main reactor powered the sheild that could deflect firepower from Death Squadron in its entirety.

100 to 1 arguments are invalid... Dooku could not have know that number for sure. Since when does one side of a war know the numbers of the other side of the war?

wait...i guess in most cases where the leader of one side of the war is also the leader of the other side of the war...

I just want to make one last point. Mizukage Yoda, you're a ****ing idiot. Try actually reading my posts and refuting the point by point by disproving my evidence instead of just skimming over them

Originally posted by truejedi
wait...i guess in most cases where the leader of one side of the war is also the leader of the other side of the war...

Yeah. Kinda makes intelligence accurate, eh?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No Karen Traviss does not contradict the Clone Wars animated series it is T-Canon, right below the movies and far out of her league. I have 2 C-Canon souces that state quintillions of battle droids. Combined with the T-Canon 100 to 1 statement there are quadrillions of clones *see my Size of the Clone Army thread* You seem to mistake what I'm saying here, the Venator not the Acclamator was the default warship of the Republic, each ship carried 400 fighters. Mandators are not unknown we know they could take on a thousand Recuscants before being destroyed. Praetors were Clone War era battlecruisers who's one Ion Cannon took down the shields of an ISD with laughable ease, and who's main reactor powered the sheild that could deflect firepower from Death Squadron in its entirety. Reasoning with you is like talking to a cadaver. Hilariously maddening.

I'm more than happy to listen to Mizukage, because Traviss's figures are so stupid.

And unless the Republic had multiple cloning stations, which apparently they don't, Kamino could never produce, house, and train "quadrillions" of clones.

^Really do you know this, because several military producers have subsidiaries, like KDY and Rothana. Is it so far fetched to assume that Kamino could also have subsidiaries. And the 501st and the Shock Troops were allegedly raised on Coruscant: Now of coarse this is non canon but still, there could be subsidiaries

Originally posted by Faunus
And unless the Republic had multiple cloning stations, which apparently they don't, Kamino could never produce, house, and train "quadrillions" of clones.

Would it be possible if we could just forget the three million clone figure? I mean, come on, it has no factual basis and is perhaps the dumbest idea in the mythos. No redeeming quality at all. None. And it defies all logic. I say we ignore it.

So somehow it took Kamino ten years to produce 1.2 million troops and all of the sudden they produced millions of times that?

Now, you're going to say that every member world of the Republic somehow produced an average of a BILLION troops EACH. Obviously not.

Assuming every Republic planet equalled Kamino's Clone production during the first ten years it'd only be 1.2 trillion troops. That's barely a thousandth of the figures this fool Mizukage is claiming and that assumes EVERY planet in the Republic is working on it. The VAST majority were not.

No Gideon, we can't. It's ridiculous to assume the contrary, actually.

Originally posted by Gideon
Would it be possible if we could just forget the three million clone figure? I mean, come on, it has no factual basis and is perhaps the dumbest idea in the mythos. No redeeming quality at all. None. And it defies all logic. I say we ignore it. Would it be possible if we could just forget DE? I mean, come on, it shits all over the prophecy of the Chosen One - which was kind of stupid to begin with - and is perhaps the dumbest EU idea in the mythos. Few redeeming qualities at all. And it defies all logic. I say we ignore it.

Seriously. I hate both, but I hate DE more. You can't just ignore aspects of canon, or we may as well pick and choose what matters.

I personally was never a fan of the idea of a Rebellion. The Rebel Alliance should be considered non-canon too. Let's just forget about it. Lol, I'm just playin

I think there's a lot that points to a much larger Clone Army than Traviss's nonsense which is mostly contradictory of other sources...we'll have to wait and see there.

Hell, Lucas himself contradicted her "CLone Wars wasn't even a really big war" nonsense

Originally posted by Faunus
Would it be possible if we could just forget DE? I mean, come on, it shits all over the prophecy of the Chosen One - which was kind of stupid to begin with - and is perhaps the dumbest EU idea in the mythos. Few redeeming qualities at all. And it defies all logic. I say we ignore it.

Seriously. I hate both, but I hate DE more. You can't just ignore aspects of canon, or we may as well pick and choose what matters.

LOL.

I'm in the middle of a multi-page thread on the Jedi Council Forums arguing in favor of a massive retcon that dismisses all stories involving post-RotJ Sith, including Dark Empire.

But really, Faunus, the idea that Dark Empire, as bad as it is, compares to the three million clone figure is extremely stupid. I mean, hell, arguing on technicality, there is nothing that says the Sith were destroyed "permenantly."

There is no such saving grace for Traviss's ignorance. It defies all reason. As Enyalus pointed out, a number twice that size was unable to conquer half of China. You expect it to be suitable to conquer half of the galaxy?

I'm sorry, but DE is nowhere near as bad nor as stupid, and even in your bitterness towards it, I know that you know better.

Edit: Glentract, when you figure out a way that the Republic could have performed well in combat against the Confederacy with only three million clones, post it.

Moreover, Cestus Deception says over a million clones had died already!

Because they went to some planets and raised army's there. Remember the battle with Halcyon and Anakin?

The main thing I would like to ask you is where all the clones would have come from.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Moreover, Cestus Deception says over a million clones had died already!

Traviss is a moron. Three million clones versus quintillions of Confederacy droids? It's impossible. Impossible.

Edit: Glentract, I want the source that says that the Republic organized planetary militias on such a level that it bolstered their three million clone number to the point that they could fight the Confederacy on an even footing. Quotes if possible.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Because they went to some planets and raised army's there. Remember the battle with Halcyon and Anakin?

The main thing I would like to ask you is where all the clones would have come from.

Well, defining what 'units' meant, all the cloning centers across Kamino, the Spaarti facilities...

Originally posted by Gideon
Traviss is a moron. Three million clones versus quintillions of Confederacy droids? It's impossible. Impossible.

Edit: Glentract, I want the source that says that the Republic organized planetary militias on such a level that it bolstered their three million clone number to the point that they could fight the Confederacy on an even footing. Quotes if possible.

I wasn't saying that the Republic used that to fight them on even footing. I was merely stating that we have at least one instance of them raising a non-Clone Army.

Quintillion's is also impossible, at least as much as the three million number. That's a TRILLION droids for EVERY SINGLE PLANET in the war. Most planets don't have a thousandth of that population.




I'm going to quote myself because I guess nobody read it the first time. So somehow it took Kamino ten years to produce 1.2 million troops and all of the sudden they produced millions of times that?

Now, you're going to say that every member world of the Republic somehow produced an average of a BILLION troops EACH. Obviously not.

Assuming every Republic planet equalled Kamino's Clone production during the first ten years it'd only be 1.2 trillion troops. That's barely a thousandth of the figures this fool Mizukage is claiming and that assumes EVERY planet in the Republic is working on it. The VAST majority were not.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I wasn't saying that the Republic used that to fight them on even footing. I was merely stating that we have at least one instance of them raising a non-Clone Army.

Quintillion's is also impossible, at least as much as the three million number. That's a TRILLION droids for EVERY SINGLE PLANET in the war. Most planets don't have a thousandth of that population.

And yet, a month after RotS, the fledgling Imperial Army is referred to as "one of the largest armies in history." So even after being decimated by three years of warfare, they can contend with any other in galactic history in terms of numbers? The three million figure wouldn't allow that to happen.

I mean, the soldier complements for the Republic and Imperial Star Destroyers even defy that number. Traviss, idiot that she is, doesn't realize that her number has been shot down in other sources.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I wasn't saying that the Republic used that to fight them on even footing. I was merely stating that we have at least one instance of them raising a non-Clone Army.

Quintillion's is also impossible, at least as much as the three million number. That's a TRILLION droids for EVERY SINGLE PLANET in the war. Most planets don't have a thousandth of that population.




I'm going to quote myself because I guess nobody read it the first time. So somehow it took Kamino ten years to produce 1.2 million troops and all of the sudden they produced millions of times that?

Now, you're going to say that every member world of the Republic somehow produced an average of a BILLION troops EACH. Obviously not.

Assuming every Republic planet equalled Kamino's Clone production during the first ten years it'd only be 1.2 trillion troops. That's barely a thousandth of the figures this fool Mizukage is claiming and that assumes EVERY planet in the Republic is working on it. The VAST majority were not.
There were not a thousand systems, Dooku said ten thousand MORE systems would rally to their cause meaning they already had thousands at the time of AOTC. "The exact number of planets in the Republic fluctuated, but in 21 BBY it was a little less than 1.3 million planets. "
Now fathom how the Republic can defend itself with three million clones. I am not making random guesses as you think I am using canon statements as my basis, Dooku states a hundred to one to a king he was trying to gain support from. These figures seem pretty accurate but even if he was exaggerating there are still quadrillions of clones. After all the Coruscant Guard alone could have a billion clones to police Coruscant's trillion inhabitants(yes it is an all clone unit commanded by Commander Fox to police Coruscant.)
Now instead of calling me a fool, stop using Karen Traviss the killer of EU into the picture and use common sense and the Canon statements given, not these ridiculous BS numbers, the Clone army did not number in millions it had to be far greater than that.

The Galactic Empire boasted a membership of a million planets. Wookieepedia also includes "fifty million colonies, protectorates, and governorships" throughout the galaxy as well.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I wasn't saying that the Republic used that to fight them on even footing. I was merely stating that we have at least one instance of them raising a non-Clone Army.

Quintillion's is also impossible, at least as much as the three million number. That's a TRILLION droids for EVERY SINGLE PLANET in the war. Most planets don't have a thousandth of that population.

Take it up with the canon, then. The Story of general Grievous and the Cross Sections certainly say that there were 'quintillions' of droids.

Moreover, there were non-clone fighters, but the clones were the massive army of the Republic


Again: Define 'units,' or the timing.

For starters, Kamino isn't isolated to that one Cloning facility, but all across the planet, plus other cloning facilities



Either way, three million? Ludicrous in the extreme. There would've only been TWO million left by the time of the Cestus Deception and they were dying all the time

Originally posted by Gideon

I'm in the middle of a multi-page thread on the Jedi Council Forums arguing in favor of a massive retcon that dismisses all stories involving post-RotJ Sith, including Dark Empire.Good. The current representation of post-RotJ Sith suck.

I didn't say it was, I said I hated it more. It's like the bastard child of Fanboy and Asshat, and deserves to be burned. Weird art, weak writing, terrible concept.

But as far as common sense and plausibility - even with relative suspension of disbelief taken into account - are concerned? The "three million" figure is as bad as they get, and Pellaeon's calculation of the Empire at its peak wielding 25,000 SDs is a distant second.

I didn't say there was. But the idea of Palpatine miraculously coming back to life a couple of years after being gloriously killed is stupid. It's a sentimental qualm more than a logical one, but it makes sense; DE tramps all over the significance of Skywalker's sacrifice.

Maybe I missed something. What does Traviss have to do with anything?

I'm not nearly as bitter toward it as, say, LS is to TotJ; you can't argue that. I even pointed out that it has a few redeeming qualities. I just hate the concept as a whole.

I thought the clones were supposed to be auxiliary troops or something, but apparently that idea's been trod all over by recent canon.

I'm content with dissolving DE, since Palpatine is referred to as the most powerful Sith even prior to that. You will never escape it, Faunus. Ha. Hahah.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!



And Traviss was the moron who took the "three million units" idea and turned it into "three million clones."

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm content with dissolving DE, since Palpatine is referred to as the most powerful Sith even prior to that.Not by an omniscient narrator.

Ha. Escape. Escape81 = Gideon.

Oh.

Why does she have work?

Originally posted by Faunus
Not by an omniscient narrator.

Vader: The Ultimate Guide. Palpatine's still the best, even without DE. Your efforts are futile. Suck it.



LOL!

No.



Honestly, dude, I don't know. Seriously. She's caught hell for her minimalism for years and she's legendary at Stardestroyer.net for verbally abusing and harassing her detractors (she once referred to them as "Talifans". In Order 66, rather than simply face her stupidity and retcon it, she writes a scene where a former Republic official hosts a press conference and accused the Republic of aggrandizing the numbers at the Confederacy's disposal to prolong the war in order for Palpatine to acquire more power. Too bad her minimalism is retconned by a visual guide and numerous sourcebooks.

She's also legendary for painting Jedi in a bad light. She writes in the novelization of the Clone Wars movie that Mace Windu would rather see Rotta the Hutt, Jabba's newborn son, die because his father is a gangster. We see the scene through Palpatine's point of view, and he delights in mocking the Jedi for their hypocrisy and even "takes the moral high ground" and makes Windu look like an idiot.

I know Windu isn't charismatic and can be a prick, but he's a Jedi. Methinks he'd gladly take a blaster bold to protect any child, regardless of heritage.

Originally posted by Gideon
Vader: The Ultimate Guide. Palpatine's still the best, even without DE. Your efforts are futile. Suck it. QUOTE PLZ.

I do not approve of your lolage. While the Captain is taking over Kuwait and North Korea, I shall send my apprentice's secret apprentice to indiscriminately inflict ridiculous amounts of damage on your hometown for no apparent reason.

Such as...?

He wants the kid to die because he's the son of a gangster? That makes no sense.

Surprise, surprise.

Shatterpoint agrees.

Originally posted by Faunus
QUOTE PLZ.

Absolutely.



-- Vader: The Ultimate Guide, page 19.

Face it, sir. You're done. Palpatine is the only Sith Lord named the most powerful in history and more than once.

This is the end of your insignificant rebellion.



The Captain is my servant and my Master, the Great Publius, shall protect me.



Read "Rattling the Saber" by Publius. It's an argument on the strategic organization of the Imperial Starfleet and what it consists of (and it is sourced).



No, he'd rather see the kid die than send Jedi assets to Hutt Space to recover him, knowing full well that such an action would not only be a good deed insofar as the rescue of a kidnapped innocent, but Jabba would also allow the Republic exclusive access to Hutt Space and would grant his support against the Confederacy.

Palpatine mocks him and then, outloud, takes the moral highground (which "delights" him) and forces them to go anyway, making Windu look like an idiot.



Yeah.

And after reading "Tyranny Reborn," a remarkable piece of fanfiction, I agree with the abolishment of all post-RotJ Sith, including DE Palpatine, even though Publius's works are still greater than all of the others in the continuity.

Stellar writing can't make up for the blatant contradiction of the prophecy. The Sith should be permenantly dead after Endor. Too bad these idiots at TFN disagree.

Originally posted by Gideon
Honestly, dude, I don't know. Seriously. She's caught hell for her minimalism for years and she's legendary at Stardestroyer.net for verbally abusing and harassing her detractors (she once referred to them as "Talifans"


Any particular threads that come to mind? I'd love to read them.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Any particular threads that come to mind? I'd love to read them.

They've all been locked or deleted at TFN.

Honestly Legacy era should be thousands of years after Endor, led by like Palpatine's spirit, I mean Exar waited thousands, and as did most other Sith whoose spirits remained.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Honestly Legacy era should be thousands of years after Endor, led by like Palpatine's spirit, I mean Exar waited thousands, and as did most other Sith whoose spirits remained.

Absolutely not. It should all be retconned. With the prophecy fulfilled, the Sith and Palpatine should be gone forever. My comparison at TFN was with the Nazis; you'll never forget what they have done, how they have impacted the world, and they'll always be feared and reviled, but they're finished. Gone. Kaput.

My proposition was that after the Imperial Remnant was dealt with or the Yuuzhan Vong or whatnot, an up-and-coming darksider could objectively look at things. In 25,000 years, the Sith only ever succeeded once and ruled the galaxy for two decades. Not exactly a remarkable track record, not to mention their penchant for in-fighting. A rational person would simply acquire as much Sithian knowledge and techniques remaining and apply them to a new order with a new doctrine. Inspired by Sith? Sure. But not the same thing.

Maybe Jacen wasn't a sith? Think of Ventress. She called herself a sith. She used the dark side. Dooku said she wasn't a sith. How do we know caedus wasn't just a wannabe? Same goes for Lumiya, who trained him.

And in what context does Travis' quote about 3,000,000 clones come from? No chance its been taken out of context? (Gideon, do you have the quote?)

and i agree with faunus that we should indeed abolish DE, though why stop there? lets just take comics out of the equation, period. (or at least pictures. Text counts towards canon only, YAY!)
(pretty please? )

Originally posted by Gideon
Absolutely not. It should all be retconned. With the prophecy fulfilled, the Sith and Palpatine should be gone forever. My comparison at TFN was with the Nazis; you'll never forget what they have done, how they have impacted the world, and they'll always be feared and reviled, but they're finished. Gone. Kaput.

My proposition was that after the Imperial Remnant was dealt with or the Yuuzhan Vong or whatnot, an up-and-coming darksider could objectively look at things. In 25,000 years, the Sith only ever succeeded once and ruled the galaxy for two decades. Not exactly a remarkable track record, not to mention their penchant for in-fighting. A rational person would simply acquire as much Sithian knowledge and techniques remaining and apply them to a new order with a new doctrine. Inspired by Sith? Sure. But not the same thing.
Well that would be good too you do have a point about Anakin's sacrifice and the whole prophecy thing being BS with Legacy era, and DE and all

Originally posted by Gideon
And yet, a month after RotS, the fledgling Imperial Army is referred to as "one of the largest armies in history." So even after being decimated by three years of warfare, they can contend with any other in galactic history in terms of numbers? The three million figure wouldn't allow that to happen.

I mean, the soldier complements for the Republic and Imperial Star Destroyers even defy that number. Traviss, idiot that she is, doesn't realize that her number has been shot down in other sources.

It still would have been one of the largest in history without increasing from it's Clone Wars size. Three million clone troopers, plus several thousand ships puts them above bascially any government besides the GE, New Republic, CIS (which had a bigger army), and the Vong. Top five, not bad.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
There were not a thousand systems, Dooku said ten thousand MORE systems would rally to their cause meaning they already had thousands at the time of AOTC. "The exact number of planets in the Republic fluctuated, but in 21 BBY it was a little less than 1.3 million planets. "

Notice that my numbers estimate that there is a million Republic systems, which is generous given that the CIS has like half of them.

Now fathom how the Republic can defend itself with three million clones. I am not making random guesses as you think I am using canon statements as my basis, Dooku states a hundred to one to a king he was trying to gain support from.

Because far from every planet ever had a battle on it.

BTW, Karen Traviss is a canon source to, at least as much as Dooku. YOU do not pick and chose which canon you want to follow.

These figures seem pretty accurate but even if he was exaggerating there are still quadrillions of clones. After all the Coruscant Guard alone could have a billion clones to police Coruscant's trillion inhabitants(yes it is an all clone unit commanded by Commander Fox to police Coruscant.)

No, quadrillions of clones is a totally ridiculous number also. Also, if you're going to take Coruscant as the norm (and I'd like to see your source for a billion clones being there) then you're argument is totally flawed. Coruscant would be a ridiculous extreme.



Now instead of calling me a fool, stop using Karen Traviss the killer of EU into the picture and use common sense and the Canon statements given, not these ridiculous BS numbers, the Clone army did not number in millions it had to be far greater than that.

Lets take the Battle of Praestlyn as an example. There was 50,000 Republic troops there. If the Clone Wars touched every single planet in the Republic and every battle had 50,000 troops, then that would mean that there was 50 BILLION Clones. In otherwords, less than one thousandth of the ridiculous numbers you're claiming.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Take it up with the canon, then. The Story of general Grievous and the Cross Sections certainly say that there were 'quintillions' of droids.

You take it up with canon. Traviss said 3 million. Because we have conflicting statements, we have to apply some logic. And logic says that they number in the billions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Moreover, there were non-clone fighters, but the clones were the massive army of the Republic

I never contested that fact.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Again: Define 'units,' or the timing.

A unit would probably be a trooper. Can you give good reason for an alternate definition? If it was, say, a battalion, then that puts the number of clones into the billions, which is what I would have guessed.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
For starters, Kamino isn't isolated to that one Cloning facility, but all across the planet, plus other cloning facilities

However, the number of cloning facilities isn't numbered in the millions, which is the minimum necessary to produce trillions or quadrillions of Clones.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Either way, three million? Ludicrous in the extreme. There would've only been TWO million left by the time of the Cestus Deception and they were dying all the time

I'm not saying that there were only three million. I am saying that if you want to disregard one quote you need to disregard another and instead use logic to figure it out. You can't pick and choose canon the way Mizukage wants to.

As I already have shown, if Battle's the size of Praestlyn happened on every planet in the Republic, the number of necessary clones would have been 50 billion. Even if we take the number used at Geonosis and assume that every world had battles that large, then it numbers four times that (50,000 as opposed to 192,000) which means right about 200 billion Clones who have seen action, with maybe another fifty percent still in reserve. That'd put the high end number of clones in the 300 BILLION range.

Except that LoE says that only half of the original Grand Army was still in fighting form. So your contention is that 1.5 million troopers is enough to contend with the Galactic Empire, New Republic, Confederacy, and Vong in terms of size.

Really, Glentract, for such a logistics nut, what the hell are you doing arguing this?

Originally posted by Gideon
Except that LoE says that only half of the original Grand Army was still in fighting form. So your contention is that 1.5 million troopers is enough to contend with the Galactic Empire, New Republic, Confederacy, and Vong in terms of size.

Really, Glentract, for such a logistics nut, what the hell are you doing arguing this?

I'm not saying that it would have been able to keep pace with the GE, New Republic, or the Vong. The CIS, yes, (lol since it obviously did). Later in my post I showed why I feel that both the Traviss quote and the GG quote aren't all that relevant and showed why I feel that the Clone Army probably numbered at 50 billion minimum to a maximum size of about 300 billion.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It still would have been one of the largest in history without increasing from it's Clone Wars size. Three million clone troopers, plus several thousand ships puts them above bascially any government besides the GE, New Republic, CIS (which had a bigger army), and the Vong. Top five, not bad.



Notice that my numbers estimate that there is a million Republic systems, which is generous given that the CIS has like half of them.



Because far from every planet ever had a battle on it.

BTW, Karen Traviss is a canon source to, at least as much as Dooku. YOU do not pick and chose which canon you want to follow.



No, quadrillions of clones is a totally ridiculous number also. Also, if you're going to take Coruscant as the norm (and I'd like to see your source for a billion clones being there) then you're argument is totally flawed. Coruscant would be a ridiculous extreme.





Lets take the Battle of Praestlyn as an example. There was 50,000 Republic troops there. If the Clone Wars touched every single planet in the Republic and every battle had 50,000 troops, then that would mean that there was 50 BILLION Clones. In otherwords, less than one thousandth of the ridiculous numbers you're claiming.



You take it up with canon. Traviss said 3 million. Because we have conflicting statements, we have to apply some logic. And logic says that they number in the billions.



I never contested that fact.



A unit would probably be a trooper. Can you give good reason for an alternate definition? If it was, say, a battalion, then that puts the number of clones into the billions, which is what I would have guessed.



However, the number of cloning facilities isn't numbered in the millions, which is the minimum necessary to produce trillions or quadrillions of Clones.



I'm not saying that there were only three million. I am saying that if you want to disregard one quote you need to disregard another and instead use logic to figure it out. You can't pick and choose canon the way Mizukage wants to.

As I already have shown, if Battle's the size of Praestlyn happened on every planet in the Republic, the number of necessary clones would have been 50 billion. Even if we take the number used at Geonosis and assume that every world had battles that large, then it numbers four times that (50,000 as opposed to 192,000) which means right about 200 billion Clones who have seen action, with maybe another fifty percent still in reserve. That'd put the high end number of clones in the 300 BILLION range.
There are two C-canon sources that say there are quintillions of battledroids, Karen Traviss is a single C-Canon source, if even I'd put her at S-Canon, but w/e she is one C-canon source. Dooku's 100 to 1 quote is T-Canon it is from the Clone Wars series, two C-Canon sources + T-Canon quote>>>>>>>Karen Traviss.
Remember there were also droids protecting, and operating the CIS' massive navy, remember millions of warships. Oh and there were clones also guarding worlds. Remember the hundred to one figure is reasonable, unless you wish to suggest every clone has a kill ration upwards of a hundred, a thousand clones for one droids is as far as I would say

Try addressing my arguments point by point, thanks.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
There are two C-canon sources that say there are quintillions of battledroids, Karen Traviss is a single C-Canon source, if even I'd put her at S-Canon, but w/e she is one C-canon source. Dooku's 100 to 1 quote is T-Canon it is from the Clone Wars series, two C-Canon sources + T-Canon quote>>>>>>>Karen Traviss.
Remember there were also droids protecting, and operating the CIS' massive navy, remember millions of warships. Oh and there were clones also guarding worlds. Remember the hundred to one figure is reasonable, unless you wish to suggest every clone has a kill ration upwards of a hundred, a thousand clones for one droids is as far as I would say

Erm?
There are sources listing the kill count of several Clone Troopers to 2000+ confirmed kills. Yet, if you take out one of the control ships, you have ten thousands of battle droids completely useless and disabled. Aside of that, the Republic had the Jedi Knights, who are shown to take out rediculous amounts of droids on their own.

If you would take a look at the background action in the arena fight on Geonosis, you could see that some of the Jedi are in 10vs1 situations with Battle Droids...and they actually survive that.

Aside of that you have the population of planets forced under the control of the CIS but being loyal with the Republic. Just think about Kashyyk and the Wookies. That's an entire race of additional combatants. The same is true for the Mon Calamari, the Gungans on Naboo in TPM, the Koruunai etc.

So you really can't just go out and "compare the numbers" here. Because the numbers we have for the Republic forces don't factor in:

a) The Clone Commandos, which are pretty damn good.
b) Mercenaries, spies, planetary armies or security forces, militia forces

And that aside you still have the Jedi who, in some situations, take it up with entire armies on their own . As far as I recall, Mace takes over Haruun Kal with the support of one capital ships company of Clone Troopers and the aid of the planetary forces. If 6,000 Soldiers are enough for a Jedi General to take over a planet, I don't see them having much trouble to defend the Republic with just a few million Clones.

Edit:
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Yuuzahn Vong primary ship, the Miid Ro'ik is more powerful than a ISD in a fight. The ISD is FAR more powerful than a Venator. Miid Ro'im would literall tear Venator's to shreads. To demonstrate,



Well, Glentract. The Kuat Drive Yard sector defence did consists of quite a lot of Star Dreadnaughts, which were - basically - a little weaker than the later Executor-class ships. So they have quite some firepower around, even in PT era times.

Aside of that: They do still have an army of 10,000 Jedi Knights, which - by far - exceeds the NJO when it comes down to manpower. This aside from the local troops that the millions of planets are having around.

So Nai, are you saying that you think the Old Republic could take the Vong? Yes, the Republic had Star Dreadnaughts, but they were VERY limited in number, and I doubt able to defeat the worldships, some of which are almost as big as the first Death Star (120km).

Just to reiterate, I doubt very much the Old Republic would stand a chance against the Yuuzhan Vong.

Ok, for reason's sake lets say there were a trillion clones. Ok, at Geonosis alone there were some ten thousand clone Commandos, at one battle. Honestly the sector defense fleets+the Republic armada+ten thousand Jedi+Yoda+Mace=crispy vong

but there weren't a trillion clones. no matter how much you reason it thus. so no, we can't just assume that.

Originally posted by truejedi
but there weren't a trillion clones. no matter how much you reason it thus. so no, we can't just assume that.
Would you prefer quadrillions. Your choice ok.

ignore canon all you want. At the end of the day, all you will be is wrong.

not ignoring I'm to lazy to type my arguments again so w/e

i know, i know M Yoda, it IS logical. It just isn't true. sadly.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ok, for reason's sake lets say there were a trillion clones. Ok, at Geonosis alone there were some ten thousand clone Commandos, at one battle. Honestly the sector defense fleets+the Republic armada+ten thousand Jedi+Yoda+Mace=crispy vong

Wow, no, you're just being ridiculous. The Old Republic technology is just not good enough to give them a chance against the Vong.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Would you prefer quadrillions. Your choice ok. Make it a quadrillion clones with Imperial-era tech., then we'll talk about dead Vong.

Till then, as illogical as it may seem, 3 million remains canon. Soooooo... who's a dead Republic? Who's a dead Republic? That's right! The Galactic Republic is a dead Republic. Good boy! Who's a clever member of the forums? Who obeys canon? Good boy!

Ok fine, its not possible for there to be three million clones. There were 3.2 million at Munnillist, and at the same time as Munnilist at the very least the Battles of Dantooine, Mon Calamari and Hypori were occurring.There goes your canon figure

now wait a minute: The battle of muunilinst (is that what you were referring to?) is from the clone wars cartoons. Where is your source from the clone wars cartoons that says 3.2 million clones? I watched them. I don't remember numbers EVER being discussed.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Muunilinst

bleah, Mizukage. the SOURCE. Wikiapedia is good for letting you know what you can find elsewhere. I wonder WHERE that is shown, so i can figure out if it is a higher source of canon than Karen Traviss. Right now, Wookipedia by itself is a decidely lower source than Traviss.

besides: your "source" starts with the word IF.


"If these ships were Acclamator-class assault ships and were filled to their maximum specifications as would be expected, at least 3.2 million clone troopers would have been deployed to the battle."


Considering we know, that there COULD NOT HAVE BEEN more than 3 million clones, this IF statement is never realized. Skips on to the else.... i can see something like this:


NUMCLONES=3.0million

If(totalclones>=NUMCLONES)
{
ships=Acclamatorclassships;
populationofbattle=3.2million;
}

else
{
ships!=Acclamatorships;
populationofclones<=NUMCLONES

}
//Cannon Rules!!!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ok fine, its not possible for there to be three million clones. There were 3.2 million at Munnillist, and at the same time as Munnilist at the very least the Battles of Dantooine, Mon Calamari and Hypori were occurring.There goes your canon figure

So if there was 3.2 million at Munnillist, which was one of the largest battles of the war, that puts the total number probably somewhere under a billion. Looks like your arguments are still shit.

Dude, Mizukage I know your trying to argue reason here, but in SW, reason and logic don't exist...

You're saying that Mizukage is trying to use reason in his argument? Lol, did you even read them?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You're saying that Mizukage is trying to use reason in his argument? Lol, did you even read them?

This is coming from the guy that thinks three million clones can defeat quintillions of battledroids, and millions of Sep warships. Your just being a Vong fanboy, accept it the CIS and the Republic are far greater threats than you would like to believe. Quadrillions of clones is the figure offered in comparison to quintillions of droids. My Munnilist quote is simply there to prove to you that it is impossible for three million to be an accurate figure, in fact, it seems more likely that Republic propaganda sized there army as smaller in the media. So they could say a thousand Clones held of millions of battle droids.

Are you joking Mizukage. I was the won who said we should throw both quotes aside and establish a number based on logical reasoning instead of picking and choosing quotes to follow. Let me quote myself on a few occasions from this very thread.

Lets take the Battle of Praestlyn as an example. There was 50,000 Republic troops there. If the Clone Wars touched every single planet in the Republic and every battle had 50,000 troops, then that would mean that there was 50 BILLION Clones.

You take it up with canon. Traviss said 3 million. Because we have conflicting statements, we have to apply some logic. And logic says that they number in the billions.

As I already have shown, if Battle's the size of Praestlyn happened on every planet in the Republic, the number of necessary clones would have been 50 billion. Even if we take the number used at Geonosis and assume that every world had battles that large, then it numbers four times that (50,000 as opposed to 192,000) which means right about 200 billion Clones who have seen action, with maybe another fifty percent still in reserve. That'd put the high end number of clones in the 300 BILLION range.

Later in my post I showed why I feel that both the Traviss quote and the GG quote aren't all that relevant and showed why I feel that the Clone Army probably numbered at 50 billion minimum to a maximum size of about 300 billion.

So tell me, Mizukage, how have I been proclaiming that there were only three million clones, exactly? I've been claiming the opposite and, unlike you or anyone else touting the ridiculous quotes on the size of the CIS (while you all fallaciously choose to use only some quotes), have actually applied reason to my argument.

-

No you threatened to use the three million quote it the CIS thread, anyway that's irrelevant. quintillions is the figure that has been stated twice: in ICS, and in General Grievous: Lord of War

Address my arguments point by point please.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

This is coming from the guy that thinks three million clones can defeat quintillions of battledroids, and millions of Sep warships. Your just being a Vong fanboy, accept it the CIS and the Republic are far greater threats than you would like to believe. Quadrillions of clones is the figure offered in comparison to quintillions of droids. My Munnilist quote is simply there to prove to you that it is impossible for three million to be an accurate figure, in fact, it seems more likely that Republic propaganda sized there army as smaller in the media. So they could say a thousand Clones held of millions of battle droids. There are more inconsistencies in SW than this, and have yet to be resolved. Most of us here would like nothing more than to see Karen Traviss' Clone figure (and Karen herself) swelled about a thousand times the size (and popped with a sharpened Mandalorian in Traviss' case). But until a retcon arrives to either firmly establish the 3,000,000 figure or another figure, then Traviss' number is what is taken, there is NO negation. I.e. The Vong would wipe them and the Jedi out.

Seriously man, let this one be. You're obliterating your own credibility here. Don't pull a George Lucas by re-Nuking the Fridge.

Originally posted by Lucien A
There are more inconsistencies in SW than this, and have yet to be resolved. Most of us here would like nothing more than to see Karen Traviss' Clone figure (and Karen herself) swelled about a thousand times the size (and popped with a sharpened Mandalorian in Traviss' case). But until a retcon arrives to either firmly establish the 3,000,000 figure or another figure, then Traviss' number is what is taken, there is NO negation. I.e. The Vong would wipe them and the Jedi out.

Seriously man, let this one be. You're obliterating your own credibility here. Don't pull a George Lucas by re-Nuking the Fridge.
When in a bad tactical situation retreat until you have more intelligence on the situation
*concedes defeat* for now

i think we all agree with you in one sense MY, we think the figure is RIDICULOUS. we just don't think we can overturn it yet.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So Nai, are you saying that you think the Old Republic could take the Vong? Yes, the Republic had Star Dreadnaughts, but they were VERY limited in number, and I doubt able to defeat the worldships, some of which are almost as big as the first Death Star (120km).

Essentially? Yes.

The point is that in this debate, we just have the Clone Troopers and the on-screen visible space-ships fielded in for the site of the Republic.

That means everything else that belongs to the Republic as it is in the PT is consequently ignored. The main point about the Clone Army was, that is was a fighting force under direct command of the Republic (Senate). Shall we really assume that they have millions of worlds that don't have a single soldier on them? That despite of the fact that even in TPM the "peaceful" people of Naboo and the "peaceful" Gungans are quite able to come up with entire armies? If even those peaceful societies have soldiers, one has to assume that this is also the case for most of the Republic's member planets.

And of course we have the Jedi. Just think about the NJO series and the actions the Jedi performed against the Vong. Even there you have single individuals taking on entire armies of Yuuzhan Vong warriors.

In the end it comes down to the fact that the Vong, while being an entire race of warriors, might still be outnumbered by the forces the Republic can send into battle. And even if that shouldn't be the case, you have 10,000 Jedi on one side where the NJO consisted of what? Dozens? Maybe 100?

Originally posted by Borbarad

That means everything else that belongs to the Republic as it is in the PT is consequently ignored. The main point about the Clone Army was, that is was a fighting force under direct command of the Republic (Senate). Shall we really assume that they have millions of worlds that don't have a single soldier on them? That despite of the fact that even in TPM the "peaceful" people of Naboo and the "peaceful" Gungans are quite able to come up with entire armies? If even those peaceful societies have soldiers, one has to assume that this is also the case for most of the Republic's member planets.


an intriguing point. I would say that most of those worlds have their own private militaries. The question then becomes: Would they help the Vong, or would they stand with the Republic? The Vong tried to coerce more than one group to join their forces. (Mando's, Mercs)

Essentially, what would the Vong have to do to win? Destroy the Republic forces? (those directly under control of the senate?) Destroy the galaxy? Defeat all resistance?

I could see worlds surrendering if it avoided their extinction. The Vong gave no such choices in their invasion in NJO. The world's would definitly do nothing if the only enemy the vong had to fight was the actual Republic forces. They would most likely avoid causing trouble, and then it would be mano-de-mano with the JUST the Vong and directly controlled forces.

Assuming it was the entire galaxy against the Vong, and assuming still that the 3,000,000 number holds, then the Vong could still very well win. BDZ and a superior fleet would wipe out the Republic forces, and the Jedi are gonna end up all but destroyed (taking with them probably 2/3 of the entire Vong). What I find a more interesting option, is whether a Vong vs. Republic scenario would have Palpatine fighting with the Jedi. Or whether mass conscription and military funding would be implemented and be successful in the wake of impending extermination.

I think Palpatine would try to manipulate the war so that repbulic wins and the jedi order loses a huge number of jedi.

Originally posted by truejedi
an intriguing point. I would say that most of those worlds have their own private militaries. The question then becomes: Would they help the Vong, or would they stand with the Republic? The Vong tried to coerce more than one group to join their forces. (Mando's, Mercs)


That is no question. Thread says "Republic VS Vong" which means it's everything the Republic has to defend itself from the wrong, which would include anything under control of the Republic as organisation as well as the member planets.



Ask the thread starter. Asking me it would come down to "destroy the republic forces" and with that I mean Clone Troops + Jedi + any forces the member planets of the Republic have.



This is a versus fight and no "let's go political and surrender" play of individual planets. So basically we toss the troops of both sides into a nice battle or war and make arguments who wins.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I think Palpatine would try to manipulate the war so that repbulic wins and the jedi order loses a huge number of jedi.
No, the Sith have waited a thousand years to KO the Jedi. He would not risk himself and the entire Galaxy for a simple revenge. Palps would wait until the war was over and find someway to destroy the Jedi afterwards.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I think Palpatine would try to manipulate the war so that repbulic wins and the jedi order loses a huge number of jedi.

As fanatically devoted as he is to the destruction of the Jedi, I believe Sidious would put a primary emphasis on surviving, followed closely by the utter destruction of the Vong, and the destruction of the Jedi as a third. Not that he hates the Vong more (he clearly doesn't), but because he'll need the Jedi to defeat them.

Though it is possible that Sidious could always side with the Vong or manipulate both sides. As I recall, Shimrra regarded any potential Sith as "an ally."

Originally posted by Borbarad
That is no question. Thread says "Republic VS Vong" which means it's everything the Republic has to defend itself from the wrong, which would include anything under control of the Republic as organisation as well as the member planets.



Ask the thread starter. Asking me it would come down to "destroy the republic forces" and with that I mean Clone Troops + Jedi + any forces the member planets of the Republic have.



This is a versus fight and no "let's go political and surrender" play of individual planets. So basically we toss the troops of both sides into a nice battle or war and make arguments who wins.

then i think i would go with the Republic in that case. Sheer numbers, and numbers slightly smarter than the CIS. You have to remember, that ALL worlds and their forces would INCLUDE the massive droid army of the CIS.

Originally posted by truejedi
then i think i would go with the Republic in that case. Sheer numbers, and numbers slightly smarter than the CIS. You have to remember, that ALL worlds and their forces would INCLUDE the massive droid army of the CIS.
you make a good point lol CIS+Republic vs the Vong lol pwnd

Both the college of Moffs and Nom Anor shared the opinion that the Empire at its height would have, force-to-force, crushed the Yuuzhan Vong with "ease" and in their first encounter. That said, Glentract is correct, neither the Republic nor the Confederacy -- even combined) are a match for the Galactic Empire either. I only give the Confederacy possible victory due to sheer numbers. Ship-to-ship, they are outclassed; a Vong cruiser would obliterate dozens of them before going down.

Keep in mind that Darth Sidious didn't feel, if Kinman Doriana's words are to be taken literally, that either the Republic or the Confederacy would be sufficient enough to deal with the Vong, thus one of his major reasons for creating the Empire.

If the CIS wins, it is only through numbers.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No, the Sith have waited a thousand years to KO the Jedi. He would not risk himself and the entire Galaxy for a simple revenge. Palps would wait until the war was over and find someway to destroy the Jedi afterwards.

You don't think that Palpatine might not try to have the jedi order send more jedi then deemed necessary in a particular battle to slowly weaken their numbers like he did prior to the CW. I thought that since he gave the OK for the outbound flight mission (and for the original attack on it by the trade federation) was go start weakening the jedi's numbers and by this time I'm pretty sure he knew of the vong's existence yet he probably didn't have a clue as to their numbers. (I am aware that,that could be a reason for and against my theory)

@Gideon

That's pretty interesting, do you know which book Shimrra stated that in?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
You don't think that Palpatine might not try to have the jedi order send more jedi then deemed necessary in a particular battle to slowly weaken their numbers like he did prior to the CW. I thought that since he gave the OK for the outbound flight mission (and for the original attack on it by the trade federation) was go start weakening the jedi's numbers and by this time I'm pretty sure he knew of the vong's existence yet he probably didn't have a clue as to their numbers. (I am aware that,that could be a reason for and against my theory)

@Gideon

That's pretty interesting, do you know which book Shimrra stated that in?
No because for victory against the Vong he needs the Jedi, every one he loses will lessen his chances of victory

It was in TUF. When Shimrra is informed that the Sith were responsible for the Jedi purge prior to the Vong's invasion, he said "we may still have allies here."