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All out.

Dooku had already displayed sufficient skill to tool Ventress effortlessly with the force. I'd say he does that and proceeds to beat Maul in a lightsaber duel.

Won't be easy, but he'd do it.

This is a pretty tough matchup for Dooku, but he can do it if he finishes Ventress immediately. She's no match for him, but Maul? Maul's trouble.

Agreed. While not a challenge force-wise but he's a beast when it comes to sabers.

Ventress can't compete with dooku at all. That's made obvious in DR. Maul however, i would put maul as close to Dooku's equal with sabers, but Tyranus could tool Mace with the force, so Dooku wins.

Wizard of the Force? Is it OK that I really want to give this to Maul? I think in Sabers he would take Dooku out. Not 'Sabers- stage one of the fight'- I mean in a situation where Maul can not be force sniped, Dooku would be toast.

All out: Maul (close quarters) 7/10
All out: Dooku (some initial distance) 8/10

What makes you think Maul will beat down Dooku in a lightsaber duel?

Maul was able to manhandle Qui-Gon Jinn, who was in Mace Windu's league at the time. 'Qui-Gon was one of the best lightsaber duelists in the Order' (Wookiepedia, on Ataru's disadvantage against Maul).



Darth Maul was a very strong saber duelist, and I would like to place him in the upper tiers, alongside some of the Council Jedi like Plo-Koon and Ki-Adi-Mundi. Maul's 'Wizardry' with the force might be enough to defend him against the Count's tendency to mix force and saber attacks during duels.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Maul was able to manhandle Qui-Gon Jinn, who was in Mace Windu's league at the time. 'Qui-Gon was one of the best lightsaber duelists in the Order' (Wookiepedia, on Ataru's disadvantage against Maul).



Darth Maul was a very strong saber duelist, and I would like to place him in the upper tiers, alongside some of the Council Jedi like Plo-Koon and Ki-Adi-Mundi. Maul's 'Wizardry' with the force might be enough to defend him against the Count's tendency to mix force and saber attacks during duels.

Now, I don't know about that, considering that Dooku was capable of outsparring Mace friggin' Windu by TPM. If we assume that Qui-Gon and Mace are equals, you'd see that both Dooku and Maul were capable of overcoming their individual opponents- the only difference is (aside from them being different opponents, and Qui-Gon not having sufficient space to practice his Ataru acrobatics), Dooku would become a more skilled duelist by RotS. Honestly, his feats- which include the complete decimation of AotC Obi-Wan, handling General Grievous, tooling Ventress, and beating Sora Bulq/Tholme simultaneously > Maul's feats.

Besides, Mace is a master of Vaapad, too. Vaapad is just a more complete and advanced version of Juyo.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Now, I don't know about that, considering that Dooku was capable of outsparring Mace friggin' Windu by TPM. If we assume that Qui-Gon and Mace are equals, you'd see that both Dooku and Maul were capable of overcoming their individual opponents- I'm sorry- when exactly did Dooku best Mace? Wasn't it as a Jedi? Vapaad gets a boost vs. Darksiders. I'd be willing to argue that Mace Vs. Tyranus would result in a Jedi victory.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon

the only difference is (aside from them being different opponents, and Qui-Gon not having sufficient space to practice his Ataru acrobatics), Dooku would become a more skilled duelist by RotS. Honestly, his feats- which include the complete decimation of AotC Obi-Wan, handling General Grievous, tooling Ventress, and beating Sora Bulq/Tholme simultaneously > Maul's feats.
Maul has (off the top of my head)

challenged Sidious in a saber duel (or at least his capacity to block all attacks- it can refer to skill or speed: take your pick),

Ripped through the Black sun,

Mastered Teras Ki martial arts, and integrated it with his style,

Defeated one of the most accomplished Duelists in 400 years,(Qui-Gon)
And
Defeated Anoon Bondara (the uber-skilled Jedi Watchman)

Dooku's Feats are more numerous, but there can be no doubt that Maul's are impressive as well.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Besides, Mace is a master of Vaapad, too. Vaapad is just a more complete and advanced version of Juyo.

Vapaad is derivitave of Juyo, but Maul would not be facing Windu. He's fighting Dooku, who is most definitely not a master of Vapaad.


Maul uses a type of Martial Arts that may be disruptive to Dooku's controlled, refined Makashi. The unpredictable kicks, and generally more physical nature of any fight with Maul would put the octogenarian at a disadvantage.

I'd probably give this to the duo. Maul alone could give Dooku a rumble, and with Asajj it would be tipped into their favor.

Honestly, I forgot about Asajj. While Dooku spends time killing her with the Force, Maul would be all over him. Alternatively, she would provide a suitable meatshield for lightning or other conventional Force attacks. In a duo situation, she might be enough of a nuisance to tip the scales in Maul's favor.

Personally, I think Maul would be better off to fight Tyrannus alone then try and do it with Ventress. For one he wields a doulbe-bladed lightsaber, and Ventress can either do the same or utilise Jar Kai. They wouldn't get any progress done. Maul's clearly Ventress' superior so he should fight him alone. I say Tyrannus wins for now by pwning Ventress via Force ala ROTS Kenobi and engaging Maul in a tough duel.

Maul's Tera Kasi will kick Dooku's ass around for a bit.

Dooku will handle Maul with the Force. Just as he did to Kenobi

maul doesn't have to use the double bladed light saber. he was getting the best of Qui Gonn in their duel until kenobi helped them escape.

Couple of questions: Why didn't Kenobi and Qui Gonn go back and kill Maul right then and there, on tatooinne. Or at least try.
Or secondly, why not call for back-up at that point? its obvious they have a highly skilled fighter tracking them, why weren't more jedi sent to back those two up on naboo? Its not like they were all busy fighting a clone war at that time.

This is true the entire High Council, and Dooku himself sat in their lavish chairs as Qui Gon died a horrific death

Originally posted by truejedi
maul doesn't have to use the double bladed light saber. he was getting the best of Qui Gonn in their duel until kenobi helped them escape.

Couple of questions: Why didn't Kenobi and Qui Gonn go back and kill Maul right then and there, on tatooinne. Or at least try.
Or secondly, why not call for back-up at that point? its obvious they have a highly skilled fighter tracking them, why weren't more jedi sent to back those two up on naboo? Its not like they were all busy fighting a clone war at that time. If Qui Gon continued his duel with Maul on Tatooine he would've been killed. If Jinn got Kenobi they both would have been killed.

Maul would **** Dooku in the ass with a blade.

Oh, and the team wins.

Maul would do no such thing. Dooku would be a heavy fight for him

I'm sorry, but since when has Maul been in the same duelling league as one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty five thousand year history? Count Dooku has decades more duelling experience than Maul; against the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu. Not to mention that Tyranus has mastered Makashi - the ultimate duelling form - to its highest possible degree.

Maul is good, but no where near as good as Dooku with a blade.

As for the match up, Dooku could potentially win without having to ignite his saber.

I'm really getting sick of this. Makashi =/= instant saber duel win.

It is a style of fighting- akin to pitting Tae-Kwon-Do (sp- I know) against Karate or Judo or Hapkido- they are all different ways to get to your goal: your opponent on the ground.

I never claimed that Makashi would provide the Count with an instant win, so don't imply I did. But considering that Makashi was created for the sole purpose of lightsaber duelling, it is naturally going to be more effective than the other forms.

Ox, you're aware Maul utterly destroyed the Order's battle master with technical skills 'Seconds to None,' Anoon Bondara?

Someone brought up Makashi in the Shaak Ti thread; I don't like that its practitioners are automatically assumed to be better duelists than those who use other styles. Yes it was designed specifically for dueling, but that does not mean that a Makashi master will always beat a Soresu or Ataru master. I don't like the reverence it is held in. Is it a plus? Yes. It can be a disadvantage in some situations- like against a physically superior foe, or against superior numbers.

I just don't like it as a cure all for fans of characters who use Makashi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ox, you're aware Maul utterly destroyed the Order's battle master with technical skills 'Seconds to None,' Anoon Bondara?

...and then got cut in half by an enraged padawan.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Someone brought up Makashi in the Shaak Ti thread; I don't like that its practitioners are automatically assumed to be better duelists than those who use other styles. Yes it was designed specifically for dueling, but that does not mean that a Makashi master will always beat a Soresu or Ataru master. I don't like the reverence it is held in. Is it a plus? Yes. It can be a disadvantage in some situations- like against a physically superior foe, or against superior numbers.

I just don't like it as a cure all for fans of characters who use Makashi.

Fair enough. But you acknowledge that by Makashi's very nature and purpose, that its user will benefit in a duel over someone who wields, say, Soresu?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Fair enough. But you acknowledge that by Makashi's very nature and purpose, that its user will benefit in a duel over someone who wields, say, Soresu?

Hate to break it to you, but Maul also knows Makashi. He's a master of Juyo, which requires someone to be a 'high-level master of multiple forms.' It's also called 'the most difficult and demanding of all forms,' and says that for its opponents, 'Form VII highly unpredictable in battle' and 'can lead to fantastic power and skill.'

Maul's Juyo > Dooku's Makashi.

Don't be ridiculous. We're talking in terms of a lightsaber duel here; therefore Makashi is going to be more beneficial than Juyo. Period.

Maul may know Makashi (though I find it extremely unlikely, given his ferocious style of fighting), but he most certainly doesn't employ it in his duels. He uses Juyo, which is completely different in almost every possible way. Juyo was not the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, and while deadly in its own right, cannot be perceived as a superior duelling form.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm sorry- when exactly did Dooku best Mace? Wasn't it as a Jedi? Vapaad gets a boost vs. Darksiders. I'd be willing to argue that Mace Vs. Tyranus would result in a Jedi victory.

Oh, it certainly would be, IMO- but only during the Clone Wars. However, when they fought in TPM, both were less experienced and lightsiders- ergo Mace is forced to rely on his (formidable) regular skill to duel Dooku. Mace and Qui-Gon were known to spar on multiple occasions, during which- despite Mace's superconducting loop not coming into play- they always stalemated the other.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Maul has (off the top of my head)

challenged Sidious in a saber duel (or at least his capacity to block all attacks- it can refer to skill or speed: take your pick),

When Maul was enraged, channeling his anger and attacked Sidious while he wasn't prepared. The instant Sidious recovered his ground, Maul was disarmed effortlessly.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Ripped through the Black sun,

Dooku did the same to Mandalorians.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Mastered Teras Ki martial arts, and integrated it with his style,

Dooku was the greatest Makashi practioner in the Jedi Order, and had practiced it for dozens of years with intensity- far beyond Maul's training time. There's also nothing to suggest that Maul's natural power > Dooku's natural power, considering that Dooku was renowned as the 'temple's greatest student' and a prodigy.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Defeated one of the most accomplished Duelists in 400 years,(Qui-Gon)
And
Defeated Anoon Bondara (the uber-skilled Jedi Watchman)

Anoon Bondara sparred with Mace and Qui-Gon (right?), and both evidently managed to cause him to doubt his position as the Order's most skilled swordsman.

Dooku also regularly beat Qui-Gon's equal.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Dooku's Feats are more numerous, but there can be no doubt that Maul's are impressive as well.

Oh, they certainly are. But not as impressive as Dooku's.




Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Vapaad is derivitave of Juyo, but Maul would not be facing Windu. He's fighting Dooku, who is most definitely not a master of Vapaad.

Mace was Dooku's regular sparring partner and friend- it is logical to assume that the actual style between the two is similar, considering Mace's superconducting loop would not come into play.



Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Maul uses a type of Martial Arts that may be disruptive to Dooku's controlled, refined Makashi. The unpredictable kicks, and generally more physical nature of any fight with Maul would put the octogenarian at a disadvantage.

Dooku definetly isn't shabby in the physical department, considering he was able to hurl Anakin across the room with a friggin' kick. And while that certainly is a strong point for Maul, I don't see it overcoming Dooku's incredible technical ability, finesse, and skill. Oh, and his ability to use lethal force attacks are close quarters, too.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Hate to break it to you, but Maul also knows Makashi. He's a master of Juyo, which requires someone to be a 'high-level master of multiple forms.' It's also called 'the most difficult and demanding of all forms,' and says that for its opponents, 'Form VII highly unpredictable in battle' and 'can lead to fantastic power and skill.'

Maul's Juyo > Dooku's Makashi.
So let me get this straight: Maul's incomplete form versus the man who outdueled the creator of Vappad. Dooku's Makashi was enough to outduel Mace by the time of TPM. And by AOTC he has recieved Sith training to top it all off

Not saying Maul would win, but for some reason i can see Maul bringing out a lot of fear in Dooku.

Dooku would beat Maul 1 on 1 in a close fight.

Originally posted by bwcy
Dooku would beat Maul 1 on 1 in a close fight.
No. Dooku tooled ROTS Kenobi, who in my opinion is on par with Maul. Maul simply does not have the Force ability to take on Dooku. And Dooku has been shown to tool people with the force while in a Saber duel. As with Tholme and Sora, Dooku will quickly KO Ventress as he did in the Clone Wars. Maul will not last long against Dooku, in sabers it would be closer but with the force he will tool Maul and show him the true power of the Dark Side (may I remind you that Dooku is on par if not above Mace in Sabers by TPM).

Well Vader did not beat Maul so easily. In fact Vader nearly got killed. I would say Vader is above Dooku force wise.

So I should say Dooku would beat Maul 1 on 1 in a close saber fight.

Enyalus, your constant and blatant implications that Darth Maul is on par with Count Dooku in regards to Force power, Force potential, and Force mastery are beyond annoying and are among the most baseless stances ever made on this forum.

Be a good sport and drop them before you make an ass out of yourself. And Teras Kasi + Juyo =/= Vaapad, Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Gideon
Enyalus, your constant and blatant implications that Darth Maul is on par with Count Dooku in regards to Force power, Force potential, and Force mastery are beyond annoying and are among the most baseless stances ever made on this forum.

Gideon, have you read what I said? Because, I never once stated nor argued that Maul was on par with Dooku in any of those areas. Although I do believe his potential is on par or surpasses him. He was only 22, afterall. But I even gave Dooku the advantage in Force power and mastery in my assessment.

Originally posted by Gideon
Be a good sport and drop them before you make an ass out of yourself. And Teras Kasi + Juyo =/= Vaapad, Jesus Christ.

Again, I never argued such a thing. Ever. Quit misrepresenting what I state. Please.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Prove it.

You don't quite match my commanding presence, even though you have a tendancy to borrow my commands. If you can't match the original, don't bother, please.

Count Dooku has been regarded as the Temple's greatest student (Dark Rendezvous), one of the most powerful and respected Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history and an even greater Lord of the Sith (Revenge of the Sith), was the greatest of the Lost Twenty because "the Force was so strong in him" (Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary), and was identified as one of the Force's "most powerful practitioners" by the official databank.

Now, cite Maul's accolades for prodigious Force aptitude.



He brings his upper tier Force abilities against Maul? Where?



It did.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Prove it

Eh? did you see ROTS? he man handles a Jedi Master who is regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi of the PT era. On par with TPM Qui-Gon at least. Maul never demonstrates the ability when dueling Qui Gon and a Padawan Kenobi. Anakin got back kicked whilst Obi-Wan got handled with the force. Even in single combat with Qui-Gon multiple times he never manages to KO either of them with the ease Dooku does in ROTS. Not to mention Anakin's handling in the Clone Wars

Even though Dooku is the Unrivalled Master of Makashi, I still see Maul giving him serious trouble in the Saber department, possibly even matching Dooku for the following reasons:

1. Maul's saber skills were as good as they would ever get, as he was a "Warrior in his prime. Never to be any better" according to TPM novel.

and if you think about it, he completely mastered Juyo "the deadliest form", therefore was a "high level master of multiple other forms", and in combination to this he completely mastered this form with the use of a single lightsaber, the deadly double bladed weapon, or fighting with 2 blades"teras kasi", and also mastered martial arts and hand to hand combat. he was also physically a beast.

so in terms of saber and hand to hand combat there was really no where else for him to go or improve. His technical skill was definetely amongst those of the top-tier prequel jedis.

there was however a LONG way for him still to go in improving his Mastery of the Force. but give the guy a break. he was only 22!

2. Makashi's the best form for fencing. that is single blade to single blade duelling. thats what it was designed for- Fencing. So Mauls use of a Double Bladed weapon could prove to be too unorthodox for Dooku. No one ever said Makashi was the best for Blade to Staff fighting did they?? It wasnt designed for that.

3. Makashi's not gna be much help against Mauls Martal Arts which he combines with his saber fighting. And his kicks are powerful enough to knock massive droids to the floor.


Also does somebody want to provide evidence to me that Vapaad is better than Juyo (minus the whole superconducting loop thing).. cause according to the ROTS novel in Mace's fight with Sidious once the superconducting loop came into play and Mace matched Sidious in speed and power, they were completely EQUAL. the novel states how the fight could have gone on forever!

considering Sidious used Juyo and Mace Vapaad, it would seem the technical skill of both fighting forms were quite on par with each other.

wait a minute: Vapaad works perfectly, regardless of opponent, its fueled by the dark side within mace, and is a lightsaber STYLE. Styles work the same regardless of the opponent.

They are talking about the metaphysical aspect: where Mace engages the 'superconducting loop' and equalizes any disparity in speed or mastery. That aspect of Vapaad would not apply in a duel against a lightsider.

You're right about the consistency of Vapaad's deadliness. Sometimes I get frustrated when I see people discarding it just because it is fighting a neutral or Light side user. It is still deadly.

Explain how Skywalker's use of the Force to create a burst of speed somehow contradicts my contention that superior Force users move at superior speeds than other Force users.

Originally posted by Gideon
Explain how Skywalker's use of the Force to create a burst of speed somehow contradicts my contention that superior Force users move at superior speeds than other Force users.

It was me who said superior power leads to superior Force speed. It was you who said superior 'command of the Force', which I presume = knowledge of the Force = Force mastery, leads to superior Force speed.

And now you are saying superior 'Force users.' Different stuff.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It was me who said superior power leads to superior Force speed. It was you who said superior 'command of the Force', which I presume = knowledge of the Force = Force mastery, leads to superior Force speed.

And now you are saying superior 'Force users.' Different stuff.

Okay, let's say I said a superior command of the Force leads to superior Force speed. How does that passage disproves my theory?

how else could we explain the beginning of the duel in ROTS with sidious? If superior force users CAN'T move at superior skills, something is REALLY WRONG with that scene.

Originally posted by truejedi
how else could we explain the beginning of the duel in ROTS with sidious? If superior force users CAN'T move at superior skills, something is REALLY WRONG with that scene.

Enyalus's contention is that raw power, not great Force command, contributes to superior speed.

eh, i'd go combination of both... such as anakin should be able to move as fast as kenobi with less initial command because he's more powerful, but he would need at least enough technical skill to learn the technique.

One usually lends itself to the other in short order.

Originally posted by Gideon
Okay, let's say I said a superior command of the Force leads to superior Force speed. How does that passage disproves my theory?

Originally posted by Gideon
Skilled and fine swordsmen they may be, but the Emperor was their far superior in Force command, hence why he was able to move at speeds that they were incapable of.

Anakin shows tremendous blade speed. From the ROTS novelization:

'He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture:'

And that is while Anakin is holding himself back. Dooku is clearly overwhelmed by not only Anakin's immense power, but speed. Later on, when he isn't holding back:

'In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair.'

Just like that. He's fast enough that when he's not holding himself back, a single move ended the duel. Faster than Dooku could do anything to counter. He easily outclasses Dooku in not only power but in speed. Does Anakin have superior command of the Force over Dooku? No. Does Anakin have superior knowledge of the Force over Dooku? No. Tis power...

Now, from Path of Destruction:

'When the Zabrak's desperation turned to hopelessness, every impulse in Bane screamed with the desire to take the initiative and end the fight. Instead he let the tantalizing closeness of Sirak's defeat feed his appetite for vengeance. The hunger grew with each passing second until it became a physical pain tearing away at his insides: the dark side filled him and he felt it on the verge of ripping him apart, splitting his skin and gushing out like a fountain of blood....

He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bottled up inside of him in a tremendous rush of power. He channeled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew and finally skin...

For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see.'

Sirak was the top apprentice at the Academy. He's very fast, and has at least a working knowledge of every Form, seeing as how during their first duel Bane is able to see him transitioning seemlessly from one form into another. Compare that to Bane who is relatively new at the academy (less than a year in), he doesn't have any holocrons to study and his command of the Force is so suspect that a few months earlier he couldn't use his Force powers at all. Yet he does this. How? He's able to channel the power of the Dark Side. He can handle it. He's powerful. Not because his knowledge of the Force is amazing.

From The Swarm War:

'the two Jedi were on one another, their lightsabers flashing toward each other's heads with all the speed and might they could summon.

That was the trouble with powerful men-especially younger ones. Awed by their own strength, they so often believed strength was the answer to every problem. Luke was older and wiser. While Raynar swung, he pivoted.

As Raynar's gold blade sliced the air where Luke's head had been, Luke's boot was kicking him behind the ankles, knocking his legs out from under him and stretching him out flat.'

Luke's raw power allows him to move at tremendous speeds. In The Unifying Force (which I don't have to quote) he's seen as wielding twenty blades at once. How is this possible? Power!

A pre-ROTJ Luke, for instance, uses Force speed:

"I was dazed, and felt I'd lost contact with the Force. Then I heard Ben Kenobi's voice calling as if from a great distance, echoing across time and space. He said, The Force. Let it work for you, Luke.

I had to trust the Force completely. Guri's hand was coming down like a blade at me. A death strike, I watched her hand descend, saw it moving to smash me, but it seemed so incredibly slow that I was able to roll aside and stand before the blow could land. I felt as if I were moving at normal speed, though there was a crackling feeling to my motions, and a sound like strong wind whistling about my ears. To me, Guri seemed to be suddenly mired in thickened time. It wasn't any effort at all to knock her to the floor. As she fell, time seemed to speed up and return to normal.

The burst of speed I experienced was not a fluke, but unlike other Force powers, I cannot say I felt in complete control of it. All of you should bear in mind that while it often seems we use the Force achieve our goals, it is ultimately the will of the Force that guides our actions."

In all of the above cases, the indicated users of Force speed are not known for their overwhelming knowledge or command of the Force. And as Luke himself states in 40 ABY (circa Legacy of the Force), he was not in total control of such power - and thus, Force mastery would be a far less pre-requisite for a Force-enhanced burst of speed than the Force potential of its user.

I think Enlayus made a good point actually. I ask myself how good Maul would be if he had 20 more years to study the ways of the dark side.

Anyway, nonetheless I say dooku wins because he already showed that he is quite superior to ventress in the lightsaber department, and especially in the force contest. I say dooku puts ventress aside just like he did to kenobi and then he beats maul after a good all out fight.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
I think Enlayus made a good point actually. I ask myself how good Maul would be if he had 20 more years to study the ways of the dark side.

Anyway, nonetheless I say dooku wins because he already showed that he is quite superior to ventress in the lightsaber department, and especially in the force contest. I say dooku puts ventress aside just like he did to kenobi and then he beats maul after a good all out fight.

but Kenobi does not have the best lightsaber attack by the very nature of his form. he is a defensive fighter. and Maul is far superior to Ventress.

so whats stopping Maul being all over dooku not giving him a chance to use his superior force mastery on him, just like Anakin did to Dooku, and like Mace did to Sidious???

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

so whats stopping Maul being all over dooku not giving him a chance to use his superior force mastery on him, just like Anakin did to Dooku, and like Mace did to Sidious???

QFT

First, Mace wasn't all over sidious, mace was in a technically draw with sidious until he found that shatterpoint. Second, Maul isn't Anakin. So, even though he is a very skilled fighter, he can't do what anakin did to dooku. Just see qui-gon vs maul fight for example, did it seem that qui-gon was backing down? And dooku is superior to qui-gon both with the force and with the lightsaber.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
First, Mace wasn't all over sidious, mace was in a technically draw with sidious until he found that shatterpoint.

Point is, Mace didn't allow Sidious the time to use his superior Force powers against him.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Second, Maul isn't Anakin. So, even though he is a very skilled fighter, he can't do what anakin did to dooku. Just see qui-gon vs maul fight for example, did it seem that qui-gon was backing down?

Maul guided him into the cooling room intentionally so Qui-Gon would be at a disadvantage and to keep Obi-Wan separated. He seems like a very intelligent fighter in-combat.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
And dooku is superior to qui-gon both with the force and with the lightsaber.

So is Maul. So there goes that.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Point is, Mace didn't allow Sidious the time to use his superior Force powers against him.



Maul guided him into the cooling room intentionally so Qui-Gon would be at a disadvantage and to keep Obi-Wan separated. He seems like a very intelligent fighter in-combat.



So is Maul. So there goes that.

QED

Originally posted by Enyalus
Maul guided him into the cooling room intentionally so Qui-Gon would be at a disadvantage and to keep Obi-Wan separated. He seems like a very intelligent fighter in-combat.
Indeed, TPM novel states that Maul was the one who was in control of the fight(even when it was 2v1). I also believe that Qui-gon admits this in his own mind as well.

Nonetheless even before Maul beat Qui-gon, we never saw him do to Qui-gon what Anakin did to Dooku, which means ownage. Besides, what makes you think that Maul is as good as Anakin with the lightsaber?

Also, now it seems that Dooku's skill with the lightsaber are somehow weak. Let's not forget how good Dooku was with the saber as well.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Point is, Mace didn't allow Sidious the time to use his superior Force powers against him.

Are you high?

Sorry to interrupt the revisionist history, but when Sidious attacked the collective of Jedi Masters sent to arrest him, he did so quicker than Mace could register what was going on (Complete Visual Dictionary). And after butchering Kit Fisto while clashing sabers with Mace, he proceeded to drive Windu into the main office.

Sidious had a clear advantage in Force-assisted speed and agility and was far more ferocious than Windu could handle. The only thing that stopped Sidious from obliterating Windu with the Force was the fact that Sidious clearly chose not to do it.

And in the versus forums, we argue what combatants are capable of, we do not speculate on potential flawed decisions that they may or may not make.



And Dooku isn't? Both of them met their ends for the very same reason: hubris. Meanwhile, Dooku also has a history of cunning battle tactics. Look what he did to Anakin and Obi-Wan and then Yoda in Attack of the Clones. Tholme and Sora Bulq. Anakin on Tattooine. Yoda on Vjun. Mace Windu on Boz Pity. Obi-Wan and Anakin again in Revenge of the Sith.



The point is that Dooku isn't Qui-Gon and he is a much more capable opponent for Maul.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Nonetheless even before Maul beat Qui-gon, we never saw him do to Qui-gon what Anakin did to Dooku, which means ownage.

what do u think he did to him on tatooine?? that was much worse!

and on Naboo Maul had been fighting 2 formidable jedis for quite a while and took a hard hit to the back before his 1 on 1 with Qui-Gon. A hit Qui-Gon was only able to get on Maul because Maul diverted his attention for a second to seperate Obi1. before that according to the novel Maul was controlling the fight, and holding them both "at bay"

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Besides, what makes you think that Maul is as good as Anakin with the lightsaber?

Im pretty sure the Chosen One would win against Maul, though I think Maul would last quite long due to his stamina, and would put up a decent fight due to the deadliness of his Juyo.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Also, now it seems that Dooku's skill with the lightsaber are somehow weak. Let's not forget how good Dooku was with the saber as well.

Oh no Dooku is far from weak. Ultimate master of Makashi means the master of saber to saber combat(in technical skill)..

My argument for Maul able to hold him at bay in a saber fight is:

1. The deadliness of his Juyo..
2. Unorthodox weapon (Saber Staff essentially) not quite what Makashi is designed for, as well as unorthodox mix of martial arts and hand to hand combat withtin his saber combat.

Of course we could make the argument that Greivous and Ventress also dnt use a single saber fencing style, yet Dooku still owns them. However I dnt believe either of them has Mastered Juyo, making Maul more deadly.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
First, Mace wasn't all over sidious, mace was in a technically draw with sidious until he found that shatterpoint.

Sorry when I say all over him I dnt mean he was owning him, I just mean therye in an intense close up fight therby not giving the other opponent a chance to make use of his Superior Force Mastery.

This was a very well thought out response.

But I have found a double standard. Gideon doesn't like it when I use it, so as part of my training I have decided to point them out in others' posts as well as my own.






You can't have it both ways, no matter how much you want to.




Also, weren't you my illegitamate brother? How could you kill me?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
If you become my secret apprentice, I will assist you in fighting Gideon. Maybe.

By the way, I believe you are either my illegitimate brother or my bastard offspring (god, I love how many variations there are on the common I-screwed-some-girl-and-that-was-just-plain-wrong scenario). Why? 'Cuz Crimson (Z added for awesomeness) is basically a variation of the color 'red' with a cooler name.

Yes, for the record? Zabraks are known for superhuman resilence and Sidious supposedly, during their training, pushed him to the very brink. Realistically, even after being hunted across a planet, Maul's still a beast.

Um, what?

a.) How does Darth Vader's ability to draw upon techniques from multiple forms indicate superiority over Dooku in lightsaber combat? Especially when, throughout the same damn source, he also laments and fears that his capabilities with a lightsaber have deteriorated. He muses how only "Dooku, Asajj Ventress, and Obi-Wan were skilled enough to injure him with a blade" and wonders why "so unaccomplished a Jedi Knight" was able to replicate the same feat. Keep in mind that Count Dooku was more than capable of fending off aggressive attacks from General Grievous during their sessions and that he claimed that he would have to demonstrate to Grievous what attacks he'd receive from Council masters. Dooku is more than familiar with other modes of combat. Also bear in mind that he disarms two Magnaguards with a single swipe of his lightsaber in Labyrinth of Evil.

b.) Your point regarding Makashi is ridiculous. It was the form specifically designed for fencing and swordplay. In terms of sheer technique, it's obviously far more practical and appropriate than any other lightsaber form.

c.) He was watching Revenge of the Sith, where Yoda reaches out his hands to deflect the Force lightning and gets promptly nailed into the wall.

d.) If he's using a training saber, it means that Sidious had no intention of killing Maul. Which means that he was restraining himself.

Point B has already been addressed. As for Point D, no, using a training saber would really suggest the opposite. That he was able to go all out without worry of killing or seriously injuring Maul.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Point B has already been addressed.

Not very well at all.

Vaapad being a "deadlier" form does not mean that it is superior in strict bladwork to Makashi.



LOL. Are you serious? This is a very pitiful attempt to save face, Enyalus. You could have at least ignored it, like you have done with the other two points.

It wouldn't suggest the opposite. If it were a legitimate duel to the death, Sidious would have used a real lightsaber that would allow him to end Maul's life if necessary. That he chose to wield a harmless weapon would indicate that he had no intention of injuring Maul.

Common sense, please. You yourself testified that the purpose of the duel was to test Maul's rage and willingness to kill his own master, not Sidious's willingness to kill him.

Originally posted by Gideon
It wouldn't suggest the opposite. If it were a legitimate duel to the death, Sidious would have used a real lightsaber that would allow him to end Maul's life if necessary. That he chose to wield a harmless weapon would indicate that he had no intention of injuring Maul.

Common sense, please. You yourself testified that the purpose of the duel was to test Maul's rage and willingness to kill his own master, not Sidious's willingness to kill him.

I never suggested it was a 'duel to the death' or that he an 'intention of injuring Maul.'

You're the one who made the fallicious statement that because he wasn't trying to kill him, he was restraining himself. Which is wrong. If he had been using a real lightsaber and not trying to kill him, you'd have a point. He wasn't. You don't.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I never suggested it was a 'duel to the death' or that he an 'intention of injuring Maul.'

Um... what?



You clearly lack a martial arts background and basic common sense. As someone who has both, I'll educate you: unless you intend to maim, inflict great injury upon, or kill your opponent, you are restraining yourself. That's a very simple concept that you, for some reason, don't seem to grasp. The goal was to entice Maul to bloodlust and attempt to kill Sidious, which was brought about my goading and taunting.



This is the very essence of unbelievable stupidity.

Fact: Sidious was using a training saber -- a weapon that could not maim, inflict injury upon, or kill Darth Maul.

Fact: The goal of the exercise was to bait Maul into attacking Sidious with the intent to kill.

Conclusion: Sidious was not attacking Maul to the best of his ability and was restraining himself.

With each response, you neglect a point. Does this mean I can now look forward to no response from you at all?

Gideon, when you know whatever blow you land will not injure the person you're testing, why would you hold back or restrain yourself?

'You wouldn't' is the correct answer.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, when you know whatever blow you land will not injure the person you're testing, why would you hold back or restrain yourself?

'You wouldn't' is the correct answer.

Enyalus, it's a sign that the whole fight was a joke to Sidious. He handicapped himself by using a nonlethal weapon and still defeated Maul in combat. When he goaded Maul, the fledgling Sith attacked him in anger, briefly gained a position of advantage (much like Obi-Wan with Maul), and was disarmed again, and then bit Sidious in a fit of animal savagery.

And then Sidious revealed the whole time that he was using a nonlethal weapon.

The answer is: "He clearly wasn't attacking Maul with the intent to kill from the very onset of the fight. It was never on his agenda."

Meaning? Even restrained, Sidious dominated Maul.

Okay, it's clear you don't get it. I'm not saying nor ever said that Sidious wanted to kill Maul. It's apparent he doesn't.

Your logic that nonlethal = restrained is faulty.

A training saber - for a duel - is exactly the same as a real saber save for the fact the beam is not powerful enough to cut through flesh. He could have gone full out against Maul and not needed to worry about injuring or killing him.

Training saber =/= restraining one's swordsmanship.

meh I'd have to say that if maul does not succumb to his pride, Maul and ventress take this. Maul has all that mastery of multiple forms, ended a fight in a draw, causing the foremost swordsman at the time of tpm to commit suicide in order to kill him, resisted force lightning, (I'm not sure how powerful dooku's is in comparison to the nightsiders, but that resistance has to say something), and uses juyo, which is probably bad for dooku's saber style, i mean, strong, super fast swings that call upon the user's force wrath? That's a lot like what anakin used to kill him dooku. I don't think that his delicate deflecting style would be able to do much to defend against maul's juyo. And the fact that ventress will be helping just puts it more in maul's favor.

Count Dooku can withstand the blows of General Grievous; a cyborg possessing four metallic limbs. Not to mention Grievous can strike 16 times per second and was trained in all seven styles of combat - including Djem So and Juyo. Trained by Count Dooku himself I might add - indicating the Dark Lord's proficiency in multiple lightsaber styles.

So tell me how Darth Maul, possessing no metallic or robotic enhancements, will be able to produce a similar amount of kinetic energy which could match, or surpass, General Grievous?

Because it seems to me Enyalus, that the bulk of your argument relies on Juyo being the superior duelling form - which it's not; and Maul being able to harness sufficient kinetic force to throw Dooku off balance - which he can't.

Ok i was putting in arguments for Maul putting up a good fight here. but theres no need to downplay dooku at all. hes in the top 5 prequel jedi/siths.

Makashi is the Ultimate duelling form. thats it. end of story. Form 7(Juyo, Vapaad) is the overall deadliest, in combatting all things, but when it comes to pure blade to blade fencing, Makashi's the style to use.

Thats why Shaak Ti was a far superior duelist to Galen Marek, and why Dooku was far superior to Sora Bulq. Theres no need to downplay Dooku or Makashi.

and Djem So is not Mkashi's weakness.. the quote from the ROTS novel was that Makashi didnt generate the kinetic energy to meet Djem So "Head On" especially "While Fending off another opponent". He doesnt have to fight Head On.. he can just deflect and parry. and btw right after that quote Dooku takes advantage of Djem So's weakness to knock Anakin down.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Count Dooku can withstand the blows of General Grievous; a cyborg possessing four metallic limbs. Not to mention Grievous can strike 16 times per second and was trained in all seven styles of combat - including Djem So and Juyo. Trained by Count Dooku himself I might add - indicating the Dark Lord's proficiency in multiple lightsaber styles.

So tell me how Darth Maul, possessing no metallic or robotic enhancements, will be able to produce a similar amount of kinetic energy which could match, or surpass, General Grievous?

Because it seems to me Enyalus, that the bulk of your argument relies on Juyo being the superior duelling form - which it's not; and Maul being able to harness sufficient kinetic force to throw Dooku off balance - which he can't.

How did anakin do it? Its called the force.


Simply put, grievous doesn't have the force, so hes not going to be using the darkside of the force and his anger, etc. Anakin might not be stronger than grevious, but through the force, he overpowered dooku.

Also, grevious has not been trained in all forms of lightsaber combat and multiple forms of lightsaber combat since youth. According to the article: Grevious, unknown soldier, grevious only learned lightsaber combat in the few years he lived after his transformation into a cyborg.

Comparing grevious with dooku to determine the fight between maul and dooku would be unwise.

Indeed, makashi is the stronger of the dueling forms, but I think that juyo is most likely to be the style that would be strongest against it due to the power that juyo transfers upon impact.

The fact that assajj is helping him out, its very likely that the team will win.

Gideon: I apologize for being laconic last night. From my 'Point B has already...' post to my last post of the night I was on the phone and thus distracted.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Because it seems to me Enyalus, that the bulk of your argument relies on Juyo being the superior duelling form - which it's not; and Maul being able to harness sufficient kinetic force to throw Dooku off balance - which he can't.

From Revenge of the Sith novelization, taken from Count Dooku's point of view:

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head."

"He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance..."

From Jedi vs. Sith, Cin Drallig describing the lightsaber forms:

"Form I does not address lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Form II, also called Makashi, represents the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Masters of Form II develop unique offenses and defenses, and train studiously against having their weapons taken or damaged."

"Form IV, also called Ataru, is the most acrobatic Form, filled with numerous elaborate moves...By incorporating all the Force powers that enable one to exceed standard norms of physical possibilities, Jedi may resemble nothing less than a blur when they utilize Form IV."

"Forms V focuses on strength and lightsaber attack moves...Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling. A dedication to power and strength necessary to defeat an opponent is characterizes the philosophy of Form V..."

"Juyo is the most difficult and demanding of all forms. Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill. Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V, but not so elaborate in appearance as the acrobatic Form IV. Unlike Form V, Form VII requires greater energy because the focus is wielded more broadly, and draws upon a deeper well of emotion; while the outward bearing of a Form VII practitioner is one of calm, the inner pressure verges on explosion. And unlike the graceful, linked movements of Form IV, Form VII tactics overwhelm opponents with seemingly unconnected staccato sequences. This combination of traits makes Form VII highly unpredictable in battle."

From Shatterpoint, Yoda speaking:

"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all."

Now, I think I've covered just about everything. Clearly, from Dooku's own thoughts - Makashi doesn't generate the necessary kinetic energy to duel against Djem So. However, its weakness is lack of mobility. Now look at Juyo - direct, bold, and powerful just like Djem So. Requiring even more energy and emotion (being wielded by a master of Juyo who is fueled solely by his hatred and anger) than Djem So. Yet, unlike Djem So's lack of mobility, Juyo does just the opposite - drawing off of Form IV's open and kinetic style to overwhelm opponents with highly unpredicatable movements. Yoda, who has trained Ataru to its highest level, says that Juyo is the deadliest lightsaber style of all. And Cin Drallig seems to agree. Drallig mentions Makashi being the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber dueling - but that's because Form I didn't deal with it at all! So yes, Makashi is dedicated strictly to dueling, but there are other forms which are also solely devoted to saber duels...like Djem So. And Juyo, seemingly drawing from at least two other styles seems even deadlier and without the weaknesses which Djem So possess. Added to this style is Maul's incorporation of a deadly hand-to-hand martial art specifically designed to kill Jedi - and it turns into something far more lethal.

Maul was able to defeat with ease Qui-Gon Jinn, a saber prodigy and Dooku's best apprentice, who was on par with TPM Mace Windu...who Dooku was also on par with. And he does this with a thigh/ankle injury.

Maul, while enraged, also threatened Palpatine's life in a duel:

"Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood."

I'll remind everyone once again that Maul was in no condition to even enter that duel. He had been hunted by assassin droids on an abandoned Outer Rim planet for a month, was exhausted, starved, and wounded. And before anyone gives the lame excuse, "BUT EN HE WAS ENRAGED LOL" I'll redirect you to the Juyo passage above, regarding the use of emotions and the fact that he is described as an 'engine of pure hate' and called 'the perfect Sith weapon.' Meaning, that is his norm. He's full of hate and will do whatever it takes to win. Slash, thrust, kick, punch, claw, bite, whatever. His hate fuels him. Perfect for Juyo.

Added to that is the fact that saber-wise, he absolutely dominates a peak OT Darth Vader. Maul lands six hits, including one slash across the ribs and one blow to the head - to Vader's one killing blow by impaling himself to hit him.

There's no reason to think Dooku is Maul's superior in bladework. At all. He takes the saber battle. It would be close, but one-on-one, he would prevail. And with Ventress added in for the slight distraction, the team wins...like I said before.

Originally posted by Enyalus


There's no reason to think Dooku is Maul's superior in bladework. At all. He takes the saber battle. It would be close, but one-on-one, he would prevail. And with Ventress added in for the slight distraction, the team wins...like I said before. now don't say that, Dooku has 80 years of experience in the form dedicated to lightsaber dueling. If anything, say that maul draws with dooku and even comes out ahead, and ventress turns the scales totally. Dooku has ALOT that would make one think he is superior in bladework.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
now don't say that, Dooku has 80 years of experience in the form dedicated to lightsaber dueling. If anything, say that maul draws with dooku and even comes out ahead, and ventress turns the scales totally. Dooku has ALOT that would make one think he is superior in bladework.

Like what? Running from Mace? Being dominated by Yoda? Being terrified of Sidious? Being stomped by Anakin?

He wins against Ventress, Bulq, and Obi-Wan with the Force. Show me an impressive dueling victory that Dooku has. And don't bother with GG, especially when he's the one who taught Grievous everything he knew, and according to some people's logic - they were only sparring, thus not going for the kill, thus restraining themselves.



Oh, and Dooku was 83 when killed - so unless he was dueling since he was 3 (he wasn't), he doesn't have 80 years of experience with a saber.

And Maul got owned by a padawan who Dooku would later curbstomp (twice) and also lived in perpetual fear of Sidious to the point that he would end his own life if his Master ordered it (Shadow Hunter).

I'm getting more than annoyed, Enyalus, with you taking events out of context. Keep in mind that going down that route will only serve to make Maul look even more ridiculous.

Best just stick to a fair interpretation, because it's the only set of circumstances where you have a shot in hell of making something of a point.

Originally posted by Gideon
Best just stick to a fair interpretation, because it's the only set of circumstances where you have a shot in hell of making something of a point.

I thought my second to last post was well thought out and backed with lots of sources, and a reasonable interpretation of events, showing why Maul's Juyo would give Dooku hell. And then after my well thought out reply I get a reply like:
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
now don't say that, Dooku has 80 years of experience in the form dedicated to lightsaber dueling. If anything, say that maul draws with dooku and even comes out ahead, and ventress turns the scales totally. Dooku has ALOT that would make one think he is superior in bladework.
And kinda snapped. I don't have the patience for this. How do you do it?

By being incredibly sexy.

Originally posted by Gideon
By being incredibly sexy.

...I want you to know, I've always secretly had a mancrush on you. You're like Pellaeon, Shai, and Sidious rolled into one.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Like what? Running from Mace? Being dominated by Yoda? Being terrified of Sidious? Being stomped by Anakin?

Um, I'm pretty sure that maul>everyone you listed there.

STOP RIGHT THERE!

Lets talk about Bulq for a minute. Bulq mastered every form. Mastered. He's the one that Mace felt was skilled enough (as in as skilled as him) to help him develop vapaad. He was considered among the order's greatest swordsmen. Allow me to take from wookiepedia, as I could find all of this and place it here, but I really don't have the time or really feel like it.



So we see that Bulq is just below windu.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Like what? Running from Mace?
its called a Strategic Retreat.. theres were many other jedis on the planet after him.. he had no time for a long drawn out duel with Mace. Mace on the other hand was perfectly willing to give his life to take out Dooku at that point. So clearly Dooku had more to loose there.
Remember Sidious also attempted to retreat from Yoda. What does that mean?? nothing except Sith would rather not fight where they have a chance of loosing or being captured.
Also in the actual duel between Dooku and Mace, they were perfectly equal, both kept their ground and balance perfect.


Originally posted by Enyalus
Being dominated by Yoda? Being terrified of Sidious? Being stomped by Anakin? ?
YOur talking about the top 3 prequel jedi and sith. these 3 would pretty much own anyone. (assuming In The Zone Anakin).

and btw the AOTC novel clearly states Yoda was "Exhausted" after his fight with Dooku. and in Obsessions he admits he doesnt need to practice sparring after his fight with Dooku. So Dooku at the very least provided good enough Sparring COMBAT for FRIGGIN YODA.. so much so that Yoda doesnt feel like he needs to spar anymore for a long while!

Originally posted by Enyalus

He wins against Ventress, Bulq, and Obi-Wan with the Force.


Dooku has completely outduelled all 3 of these guys before using the Force on them. Including Sora who knew Vapaad, who even Mace didnt defeat without the use of the Force.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Um, I'm pretty sure that maul>everyone you listed there.

Cool. I'm glad you think so.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
STOP RIGHT THERE!

Lets talk about Bulq for a minute. Bulq mastered every form. Mastered. He's the one that Mace felt was skilled enough (as in as skilled as him) to help him develop vapaad. He was considered among the order's greatest swordsmen.

So did and so was Anoon Bondara, who Maul took apart in 'moments.' Big deal.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Entirety of post...

That's nice, I don't care. It isn't like I was making an actual point with that statement, anyway.

Originally posted by Enyalus
No, he can't certainly do it, unless you can prove it. He does it to Obi-Wan while he has a free two seconds or so, not during the middle of a duel against a highly skilled and dangerous and fast opponent. Maul has sparred with and fought with Darth Sidious, and also Darth Vader. And considering that Path of Destruction mentions that a force shield is one of the first things you learn to do when in saber combat, it's completely absurd to think Maul would be dominated with the Force while in the duel.

Two-words: Sora Bulq. One of the best swordmasters in the Order's history. Vaapad user (Vaapad evidently helps in fighting against lightning and other dark side attacks). Fights in tandem with Master Tholme. Gets owned by Dooku's lightning. In close range.



Originally posted by Enyalus
Probably not, but simply because one isn't trying to kill you does not mean they are not applying themselves fully. Makashi is designed to disarm the opponent first and foremost. Killing is a choice after that.

So? Makashi, or that purposes, was designed by the Jedi- Dooku, as a Sith, would logically aim to kill an opponent if he so desired.

In addition, do you honestly think Sidious would genuinely want to let Dooku kill Anakin?



Originally posted by Enyalus
Neither of them had mastered their respective forms yet. That's why Dooku schooled them.

They were still powerful, talented Jedi.

Also, wasn't Obi-Wan mentioned to be a master of Ataru, too, somewhere? If so, that would require him to keep up his training from TPM.



Originally posted by Enyalus
And yet he still dominates him during their duels. That helps my point that 'experience isn't everything,' doesn't it?

Yoda is capable of harnessing speed and explosive force capability far beyond Dooku's own capability. Maul's, too. Dooku not losing in two seconds is a testament to his skill.



Originally posted by Enyalus
And you have sources to back this up as opposed to personal assertions?

It's the form that relies most on finesse, percision, and grace. It's basically the most refined form- in the technical aspect, it's definetly the best form.




Originally posted by Enyalus
More lies. I've posted evidence why this is false. You keep using it. Find me some proof beyond 'ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat' or stop using it. Moreover, if it were the superior dueling form, why is Djem So it's Achilles heel? Precisely.

Oh, come on. 'Ultimate refinement'. Obviously, it's the product of years of training of fighting saber-to-saber; while Djem So may be its Achilles heel, when utilized by a pracitioner as masterful as Dooku, can nearly destroy that flaw- indeed, this is proven by how he survived encounters with people as powerful as Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, and Anakin (pre-RotS). All users of either Djem So or Juyo. Only Anakin- thanks to his completely unmatched force reserves- can truly dominate Dooku in such a manner.



Originally posted by Enyalus
More speculation on your part. If he could have ended the battle, he would have. Especially when Vader is on the ground, disarmed, with Maul's blade raised ready for the final blow. Maul was trained by Sidious personally, the most powerful Sith Lord in history. To think he wouldn't have learned how to properly defend himself is an erroneous assumption.

He would have. Not only did Vader still manage to win, I doubt he could pull off such a powerful force attack in close-quarters- unlike Dooku, he isn't recorded to be capable of doing that against powerful opponents.

MAUL AND VENT. I think maul could beat him with sabers not by much but edge him out. Also dosnt it say that maul was an expert with the force he just prefers hand to hand combat. Also he was trained by sidious,and had to fight sidious just to become his apprentice. I dont know a whole lot about vent but isnt she bad ass with a saber as well and when she spared against dooku she impressed sidious. I think maul would be to agressive for dooku to take out vent easily,and anytime anyfight is 2 on 1 the 2 have the advantage its not like hes fighting 2 storm troopers.

Ventress is arrogant would want to prove herself as worthy a fighter a Maul(hahaha... as if!) and would most likely just get in Mauls way instead of backing him up. So I dnt think this would be a good duo.

If Dooku can easily seperate Anakin and Obi1 and keep them tripping over each other, then I dnt see seperating her from Maul as being too difficult for him especially considering he can put Ventress to the floor by merely lifting a finger,

Then it will be Maul vs. Dooku one on one, which will be much more difficult for the Count. The lightsaber battle will be an intense one, and tough for both of them but Im guessing at some point Dooku will gain an advantage using the Force and win.

Indeed. Ventress and Maul aren't exactly an Anakin and Obi-Wan class team here.

Originally posted by Gideon
Indeed. Ventress and Maul aren't exactly an Anakin and Obi-Wan class team here.

No, but Dooku has shown that it is just as easy for him to take out Ventress with the force, as it was for him to take Obi Wan out.

WTF?

You are all making me cry, deep inside. Why the hell aren't any of you summoning the basic intelligence to demand that Enyalus substantiate what a 'wizard of the Force means'? Since you can't, I will:

Enyalus, substantiate what a 'wizard of the Force' means. That statement is a fine example of ambiguity. That you're trying to use it as a means of making a favorable comparison for Maul against Dooku in a Force fight is ridiculous.

Sorry, but Dooku is miles ahead of Maul in the Force. Miles. And miles. And miles. And miles. And miles. Evidence? His feats and accolades, none of which Maul share.

@ Rampant:

At the same time, Dooku's real salvation is Force use. Enyalus is right, Maul can definitely challenge and potentially defeat Dooku in a lightsaber match and there's no denying it.

You're arguing semantics here.

All the forms have obviously refined the art of lightsaber combat to a certain degree. To say otherwise would be ridiciulous. The fact that Makashi is the ultimate refinement indicates that out of all seven forms, Form II is the one which has refined the art of "lightsaber-to-lightsaber" combat to it's apex.

Pray tell how another form can then be superior in a swordfight, when out of all the forms, Makashi is the only one which has refined lightsaber combat to it's ultimate degree.


Originally posted by Gideon

@ Rampant:

At the same time, Dooku's real salvation is Force use. Enyalus is right, Maul can definitely challenge and potentially defeat Dooku in a lightsaber match and there's no denying it.

In a lightsaber only confrontation? Of course Maul would pose a challenge. But posing a challenge is a very different concept to acieving a victory.

But in an all out duel? I stand by my statement that Dooku wouldn't even need to ignite his lightsaber.

Intrestingly enough when I clicked on the link that took me to this thread what first showed up was Ox's last post, and as soon as I saw "You're arguing semantics here", I thought "He's talking to Enyalus".

In sabers theres no doubt that both these 2 are ridiculously skilled and accomplished.. Maul being more the deadly warrior, the physical beast... Dooku being more the pure fencer. But both among the best Saber fighters ever. So thats up for debate.

But with the Force does Maul even equal ROTS Kenobi level??? Who Dooku disposed of with a flick of the wrist!!!

This is Kenobi who sends GG flying 50ft crashing against the wall disarming him of his remaining weapons.. Kenobi who pretty much equalled the "Chosen One" in a Force Battle. and check out the new animated series where Kenobi's sending Destroyer Droids flying with the Force(while their forcefield is up) and while evading fire from a small army of droids!! seems close to Mace's Force feats in the CW mini-series.

I've already posted half a dozen quotes regarding Maul's power with the Force, to which even Qui-Gon was impressed with. That he doesn't use it and desires a purely physical victory does not mean that somehow he's going to be Force-raped by Dooku. He dominated Darth Vader, who was capable of crushing an entire room with the Force, destroying a bridge, crushing a durasteel hut, and hurling away three large pillars...all without flicking the wrist or moving his hands at all.

As for the Count's domination of Ventress with his finger, wasn't that prior to her having any Jedi-type or Force training at all? If so, way to go, killing a Force neophyte. Also, if Ventress is such an 'extremely powerful Force user,' please feel free to list some of her feats with the Force.

As for Makashi's 'ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat' line, I've already mentioned what that means: The best and greatest possible development of elegant dueling. Which as we see from the nature of Makashi, is completely true. That some choose to argue that it is superior in dueling to Juyo, which was described as being the most difficult to master, the most powerful, and the deadliest, is sad. Especially when they only have that one quote to cling to - a quote which apparently has been misunderstood on KMC for quite a while.

This seems all to be going on the assumption that Dooku will KO Ventress with the force first. He's most likely going to do maul in first being the bigger threat, in his eyes, as he did Kenobi

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This seems all to be going on the assumption that Dooku will KO Ventress with the force first. He's most likely going to do maul in first being the bigger threat, in his eyes, as he did Kenobi

When exactly did Dooku go after Kenobi first due to him being the "bigger threat?" In AOTC Anakin went after Dooku first and was taken out first (not indefinitely) and judging by Dooku's thoughts in ROTS, Obiwan wasn't a bigger threat then Anakin in Dooku's eyes.

^In AOTC Anakin got KO'd because he charged in. In ROTS Dooku concentrated on Kenobi first, he was the seasoned Jedi Master, and one of the ones he told Grievous to retreat if he encountered him. Never is Anakin mentioned in that list. Kenobi in Dooku's eyes was the bigger threat

Originally posted by Enyalus
As for the Count's domination of Ventress with his finger, wasn't that prior to her having any Jedi-type or Force training at all? If so, way to go, killing a Force neophyte.

she had jedi/force training when Dooku first met her, and was good enough at that time to give padawan anakin the fight of his life.

neway that finger dominate thing happened in Dark Rendezvous, just 6 months before ROTS. she was pretty much in her prime at that point and had killed many jedis. considering that and her fights with Anakin, and Obi1, that Force feat of Dookus was very impressive.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Also, if Ventress is such an 'extremely powerful Force user,' please feel free to list some of her feats with the Force.

does Maul actually have any pure Force feats?? if he does please tell. and I dnt mean quotes like "wizard of the force".. I mean actual feats because Obi1 has a few, and dooku disposed of him with a mere flick.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That some choose to argue that it is superior in dueling to Juyo, which was described as being the most difficult to master, the most powerful, and the deadliest, is sad.

you keep saying most powerful, and hardest to master as if that proves its the best for duelling. Soresu is the simplest form, and doesnt have any power really.. it just consisits of simple parries, dodges and blocks..
does that mean that soresu is the worst for duelling??

of course not. Its actually the BEST for Defense.. you can go on all day about how Juyo is more powerful and more difficult to master but that wnt change the fact that Soresu IS THE BEST for Defense.. likewise Makashi is the best for Fencing(blade to blade duelling).. It doenst matter if Juyo is more overall powerful and deadly e.t.c Thats Juyo's speciality and strength. of course being that deadly and dangerous added to someone whose a physical beast like Maul, is perfect to use the form to its optimum use, which is why I say Maul would very possibly be a match or superior to Dooku in a saber clash.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Especially when they only have that one quote to cling to - a quote which apparently has been misunderstood on KMC for quite a while.

and with Soresu theres just the one quote about IT being the Best for Defence. Thats what its designed for. So thats what its best for. so that quote is all we need. Same thing for Makashi and duelling.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
^In AOTC Anakin got KO'd because he charged in. In ROTS Dooku concentrated on Kenobi first, he was the seasoned Jedi Master, and one of the ones he told Grievous to retreat if he encountered him. Never is Anakin mentioned in that list. Kenobi in Dooku's eyes was the bigger threat

Really Dooku's thoughts in ROTS suggest otherwise.



Obiwan never made Dooku feel like this. This is also right before Anakin is "in the zone" as some might say.

to say maul has no force feats isn't true. Read shadow hunter. Now are those force feats all that impressive? not particularly. but still, its worth reading. Plus, really cool how Jedi Twilight ties into it. I'd like that backstory between SH and JT myself.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you keep saying most powerful, and hardest to master as if that proves its the best for duelling. Soresu is the simplest form, and doesnt have any power really.. it just consisits of simple parries, dodges and blocks..
does that mean that soresu is the worst for duelling??

"Originally, the principle of Form III was 'laserblast' deflection training. This Form maximizes defensive protection in a style characterized by tight, efficient movements that expose minimal target areas when compared with the relatively open style of some of the other forms...True masters of Form III have long been considered to be invincible; although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form III masters have ever been defeated."

So, there you go. Of course it isn't the worst. Because it's spelled out that it's far from the worst.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Hate to break it to you, but Maul also knows Makashi. He's a master of Juyo, which requires someone to be a 'high-level master of multiple forms.' It's also called 'the most difficult and demanding of all forms,' and says that for its opponents, 'Form VII highly unpredictable in battle' and 'can lead to fantastic power and skill.'

Maul's Juyo > Dooku's Makashi.

Old post I know, but a 'high-level master of multiple forms" doesn't necessarily equate to knowing Makashi. You see, multiple forms doesn't imply all forms.

Have to go with Maul & Ventress 6/10.

Although I think this team is inferior to Skywalker & Kenobi they will both be on the attack at all times and not standing around like Kenobi with his Soresu. I believe Maul alone would give Dooku a hell of a fight. Ventress by Obsession is deadly in her own right.

Sabers: Maul & Ventress 9/10
Force: Tyranus 8/10
All-Out: Maul & Ventress 6/10

Originally posted by Enyalus
"Originally, the principle of Form III was 'laserblast' deflection training. This Form maximizes defensive protection in a style characterized by tight, efficient movements that expose minimal target areas when compared with the relatively open style of some of the other forms...True masters of Form III have long been considered to be invincible; although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form III masters have ever been defeated."

No form III masters have ever been defeated? Bullshit!!! What's the source for this apparently ludicrous quote?

Bane was winning against Kas'im's Soresu until he switched to fighting Bane with Jar'Kai. Cin Drallig was killed by Vader, but I believe Drallig was cut down while he was on the offensive. But still, he wasn't quick enough to switch forms to counter Vader.

And Kenobi was defeated by Dooku, but that was with use of the Force, and not via direct saber-to-saber combat.

Originally posted by truejedi
to say maul has no force feats isn't true. Read shadow hunter. Now are those force feats all that impressive? not particularly. but still, its worth reading.

Quoted For Truth.