who will win pein vs madara

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braveheart
im talking about madara not goofy tobi

Dark-Jaxx
Hard to say.

Pein has more feats right now, sure, and they are very impressive.

But Madara's few feats are pretty haxx themselves.

roz88
madara runs the show pein is his right hand man.

braveheart
can madara b hit

braveheart
Originally posted by roz88
madara runs the show pein is his right hand man.

it doesnt matter who runs the show

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by braveheart
can madara b hit Probably, if he were caught off guard or were unable to use his Time/Space jutsu.

roz88
madara has sharingan and is the best known user of it

braveheart
Originally posted by roz88
madara has sharingan and is the best known user of it

wat about pein and his rinnagin

roz88
we don t kno its true abilities yet. but madara is a leader.

braveheart
yea we don't

roz88
how do u show ur quote

braveheart
Originally posted by roz88
how do u show ur quote

just type it ova ur sig

Kento
I wanna say Pein but who knows.

ultimatethor
For now ill say pain

braveheart
i think pein 4 now but everybody has tricks up their sleves

Pyron_Express
This is too early to say. And i hate when people say "but Madara is the leader, therefor more powerful" - i seen leaders that arent the strongest, and i seen "founders" of groups/organizations that arent the most powerful.

However, through power-scalling, i would probably say Madara intill we see both go all out. But if Nagato is indeed controlling the six paths of Pain, and if he's>>Pein, then im gonna have to go with Nagato.

King Kandy
I don't know. Madara has too few feats to know who would win.

Terryc250
Itachi > Madara

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Itachi > Madara How so?

Kento
Originally posted by Terryc250
Itachi > Madara If Itachi > Madara...Itachi would have already killed Madara instead of trying to set up fail-safes to keep Sasuke safe from Madara. Why go through such roundabout measures when he could do it easily and straight forward and only Pein even knew who Tobi was besides Itachi so it wouldn't have been hard.

Terryc250
Because Madara seemed to be pleased that Itachi was dead, and he listened to Itachi's order of Konoha being off-bounds to akatsuki members, when he died he told the akatsuki members that "Now that Itachi is dead, Konoha is now NOT off-limits" then right away an attack against Konoha began, meaning that Madara from the beginning wanted to take action against Konoha but couldn't because Itachi said so.

Also Itachi refers to him as basically inferior, he says:

"Today, Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self. He's no longer worthy of being considered the greatest Uchiha"

Which means he's not as powerful as he was, and cannot be considered the greatest and Itachi refers to him as "pathetic".

Putting all that together it seems that Itachi > Madara.
(since Madara is not as powerful as he was anymore.)

Thats my opinion anyway.

Kento
If you take into account when Itachi called him pathetic..It was also when he said he needed Sasuke's eyes to become powerful. And with Sasuke's eyes he would surpass Madara.

As for the Konoha thing. Can't launch a surprise attack when one of your men would probably get a message to them telling them about said attack. Itachi isn't there to warn Konoha. And didn't Itachi make a deal with Madara anyway by killing the Uchiha? Madara tried to attack Konoha twice anyway and failed. Sure the third time is the charm but still. I doubt it will be for Madara.

Terryc250
I'm pretty sure he was referring to Madara when he was "The invincible Madara" and not the "pathetic shell" of today, but anyway he was bullshitting about taking sasukes eyes in the first place.

That would make no difference, all they did was send Pain in, its not like they had to prepare for a surprise attack, just tell Pain and he'd get the job done, but Madara would have to face the wrath of Itachi.

Kento
I think it was more their agreement on the help of killing all the Uchiha that kept Madara from attacking Konoha.

And Itachi put all these fail-safes to protect Sasuke from Madara..if he was more powerful why would he need to do that?

King Kandy
Not to mention that apparently Madara didn't teach Itachi everything so that he wouldn't be able to kill him...

Terryc250
Itachi wanted to kill all the Uchiha for peace purposes.

It wasn't like, Itachi didn't want to do it but did it on a promise that Madara wouldn't hurt Konoha, since Itachi did want to do it in the first place.

He put the fail-safes in Sasuke, because he knows his own fate, if Itachi wasn't dead Madara wouldn't touch Sasuke.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Not to mention that apparently Madara didn't teach Itachi everything so that he wouldn't be able to kill him...
Orochimaru didn't teach Sasuke everything just to be killed by him either lol.

But Itachi is different, he doesn't like to fight, and is a peaceful man, unless he has to fight.

Dark-Jaxx
The wrath of Itachi?

Madara can just lol at Itachi and dodge all of his attacks, which would just make Itachi expend all his chakra.

Itachi was there to keep Konaha updated on Akatsuki's movements and Madara knew it, if he tried to attack Konaha Itachi would have been able to warn them. And they could have prepared for an assault.

If Itachi could of killed Madara, he would have, why go through all the preparation to keep Sasuke away from him after Itachi dies when he could just kill Madara himself?

Kento
Originally posted by Terryc250
Itachi wanted to kill all the Uchiha for peace purposes.

It wasn't like, Itachi didn't want to do it but did it on a promise that Madara wouldn't hurt Konoha, since Itachi did want to do it in the first place.

He put the fail-safes in Sasuke, because he knows his own fate, if Itachi wasn't dead Madara wouldn't touch Sasuke.


Orochimaru didn't teach Sasuke everything just to be killed by him either lol.

But Itachi is different, he doesn't like to fight, and is a peaceful man, unless he has to fight. I know why Itachi killed them. But he also did it with Madara's help.

And Itachi knew Madara would come for him. That's why he put all the fail-safes in place. If he could have beaten Madara you would think he'd have done it already to keep him away from Sasuke. Or tried anyway if he even thought he could.

Terryc250
Too bad Itachi doesn't only have physical attacks, and i'm sure there are ways to get around his jutsu that Itachi knows of.

Akatsuki doesn't need to prepare for an assault =\ they just send Pain, and thats it.. just like how it happened, Itachi is out of the picture, Madara says Konoha is not off-limits anymore, and Pain is now attacking Konoha.

Why would he kill Madara though? I'm pretty sure Itachi agree's with the Akatsuki philosophy and believes its for the better of peace, he would sacrifice anything for the peace the only thing he wouldn't sacrifice was his brother, and thats why he doesn't want Madara messing around with Sasuke.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Too bad Itachi doesn't only have physical attacks, and i'm sure there are ways to get around his jutsu that Itachi knows of.

Akatsuki doesn't need to prepare for an assault =\ they just send Pain, and thats it.. just like how it happened, Itachi is out of the picture, Madara says Konoha is not off-limits anymore, and Pain is now attacking Konoha.

Why would he kill Madara though? I'm pretty sure Itachi agree's with the Akatsuki philosophy and believes its for the better of peace, he would sacrifice anything for the peace the only thing he wouldn't sacrifice was his brother, and thats why he doesn't want Madara messing around with Sasuke. 1. Madara can literally warp his entire body into another dimension, and possesses a superior Sharingan to Itachi's. Ways to get around his jutsu? Speculation.

2. Really? So going by that, why not have Pein just pwn Itachi in the ass then, if Pein is so uber he can take on a prepared Konaha, Pein just kinda busted into an unprepared Konaha and pwned people not ready. If they knew he was coming, you think it wouldn't of made a difference?

3. ...Akatsuki's philosophy is centered around world domination, destroying Konaha, and destroying countries in a twisted method to balance power...How the hell would that fit in with Itachi and his view on life?

Terryc250
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Madara can literally warp his entire body into another dimension, and possesses a superior Sharingan to Itachi's. Ways to get around his jutsu? Speculation.

2. Really? So going by that, why not have Pein just pwn Itachi in the ass then, if Pein is so uber he can take on a prepared Konaha, Pein just kinda busted into an unprepared Konaha and pwned people not ready. If they knew he was coming, you think it wouldn't of made a difference?

3. ...Akatsuki's philosophy is centered around world domination, destroying Konaha, and destroying countries in a twisted method to balance power...How the hell would that fit in with Itachi and his view on life?
Of course theres ways to get around it, its not really speculation, guarantee you 100% by the end of the series we'll find out.

Probably because Pein can't, Itachi at full-power and not diseased is probably crazy, even fighting with no intent to kill, diseased, and after giving his powers to naruto, he still had more feats then Pein vs Jiraiya, and Pein vs Konoha. I'm saying if Madara wanted Konoha attacked, he could've just told Pain without Itachi knowing, since they meet in seclusion most of the time anyway, but then Madara would have to face Itachi.

No, their philosophy isn't destroying any countries or Konoha(only Sasuke's goal is to destroy Konoha), its merely taking over them, but after taking over the world with the powers of the Bijuu, wars will ceast to exist.

Kento
Originally posted by Terryc250
Of course theres ways to get around it, its not really speculation, guarantee you 100% by the end of the series we'll find out.

Probably because Pein can't, Itachi at full-power and not diseased is probably crazy, even fighting with no intent to kill, diseased, and after giving his powers to naruto, he still had more feats then Pein vs Jiraiya, and Pein vs Konoha. I'm saying if Madara wanted Konoha attacked, he could've just told Pain without Itachi knowing, since they meet in seclusion most of the time anyway, but then Madara would have to face Itachi.

No, their philosophy isn't destroying any countries or Konoha(only Sasuke's goal is to destroy Konoha), its merely taking over them, but after taking over the world with the powers of the Bijuu, wars will ceast to exist. Madara will probably be beaten by PIS not getting around his hax move.

Okay so now Itachi > Pein to. What did Itachi do that's put him so far up on the scale? He even admitted Jiraiya was his superior..and we seen how well the Pein/Jiraiya fight went. Itachi also didn't want the rest of the village getting involved when he fought Kakashi..Pein's taking them all head on. And at a stronger point in time.

Pein wants to create bombs to destroy villages...He wants to make people suffer pain like he did. The whole affairs of Akatsuki are exactly the opposite of what Itachi has been portrayed as by Madara and by the way he acts.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Of course theres ways to get around it, its not really speculation, guarantee you 100% by the end of the series we'll find out.

Probably because Pein can't, Itachi at full-power and not diseased is probably crazy, even fighting with no intent to kill, diseased, and after giving his powers to naruto, he still had more feats then Pein vs Jiraiya, and Pein vs Konoha. I'm saying if Madara wanted Konoha attacked, he could've just told Pain without Itachi knowing, since they meet in seclusion most of the time anyway, but then Madara would have to face Itachi.

No, their philosophy isn't destroying any countries or Konoha(only Sasuke's goal is to destroy Konoha), its merely taking over them, but after taking over the world with the powers of the Bijuu, wars will ceast to exist. 1. Yeah it is...There may be, there may not. Can't tell right now.

2. Oh really? Pein can rip out souls with a grab, deflect and absorb attacks, destroy large buildings with arm missiles, disrupt chakra with those rods, use his Rinnegan to analyze shit in a Byakugan fashion, summon a variety of creatures, hell, Pein is pretty much haxx. Itachi did not want to fight the whole village of Konoha...Cause they would beat his ass. Madara would have had to face Itachi? Madara has the same Sharingan Itachi has, but more powerful and doesn't shove a dick up his chakra everytime he uses it, and as for Genjutsu...Madara could use his Sharingan's hypnotic powers to control the frickin Kyuubi. And Susano and Amaterasu? Easily avoidable by Madara. Hell, he already took Amaterasu, and he was not even engaged in battle.

3. Pein wants to make a weapon which will destroy entire COUNTRIES. Madara wants Konoha to burn as well.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Kento
Madara will probably be beaten by PIS not getting around his hax move.

Okay so now Itachi > Pein to. What did Itachi do that's put him so far up on the scale? He even admitted Jiraiya was his superior..and we seen how well the Pein/Jiraiya fight went. Itachi also didn't want the rest of the village getting involved when he fought Kakashi..Pein's taking them all head on. And at a stronger point in time.

Pein wants to create bombs to destroy villages...He wants to make people suffer pain like he did. The whole affairs of Akatsuki are exactly the opposite of what Itachi has been portrayed as by Madara and by the way he acts.
No, he'll most likely get figured out like Pain did by Jiraiya.

What has Pain done? Itachi never did admit Jiraiya was more powerful then him, thats a big misconception that people have if you take a look at the quote, you can see that they aren't referring to anyone in particular

Kisame: Perhaps you can fight him evenly... but I cannot. He's too strong.
Itachi: Yes. If we both fought him, we would both be killed... or in a good case, we might kill him, but we'd die along with him. Even if we had more men, that result would not change.
Kisame: His caretaker is a legendary Sannin. Konoha's Uchiha Clan and the Mist's Seven Shinobi-gatana seem petty before his name.
Itachi: Yes, but... All strong opponents have a weakness.

If you look carefully, it talks about "Him" then Kisame talks about someone else, and that someone ELSE is Jiraiya.

But if ALOT of manga translations have corrected this, because it causes alot of misconception, if you go take a look at most manga translations you'll see that they re-translated it.

Kisame even says after Itachi and Kisame leave the frogs stomach "why did we leave, you could've.." most likely Kisame said you could've beat him, but Itachi says he needed to rest.

Again, Akatsuki's goal is world domination, its not to destroy everything, well of course there will be sacrifices at first but afterwards it'll all be peaceful, and itachi is willing to make that sacrifice as i've said, the only thing he wouldn't sacrifice is his brother.


Only to defenseless pussies, he wouldn't dream of doing it to Jiraiya or Itachi, Itachi could probably take out 10 buildings with a swipe of the sword of totsuka, Itachi would take out Peins bodies one by one until theres none left. Of course itachi doesn't want to fight Konoha, remember he's not actually that evil, nor does he even like to fight unless he has to. Madara is in Itachi's words "pathatic" Madara was already suspecting itachi of doing something like that, and had his guard up.

If Madara wanted to burn Konoha why didn't he do it? If he can defeat itachi why does he obey Itachi order of not touching Konoha?

Kento
Maybe, maybe not. I still think Madara's death is going to be PIS not getting around his haxx.
Itachi and Kisame were talking about Jiraiya. They weren't talking about Naruto when Itachi said they might be able to take him.

Pein has a lot more to help him out than Itachi or Madara. His ability to not be hit it seems, and to absorb any jutsu no matter how powerful are big things in his favor. And just because Madara was a pathetic shell of his former self doesn't mean he was weaker than Itachi. Just not like he was before the 4th stopped him. You can call somebody a pathetic shell and they still be stronger than you if they were stronger than they were or if his personality is changed. Itachi also says he's not worthy to be the strongest or something along those lines. Hinting that Madara is more powerful than he.

Madara tried twice...and lost twice. That could be a good reason why he didn't. And he got revenge on the Uchiha at the price of leaving Konoha alone. Just because he's the villain doesn't mean he can't be a man of his word to leave Konoha alone.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Kento
Maybe, maybe not. I still think Madara's death is going to be PIS not getting around his haxx.
Itachi and Kisame were talking about Jiraiya. They weren't talking about Naruto when Itachi said they might be able to take him.

Pein has a lot more to help him out than Itachi or Madara. His ability to not be hit it seems, and to absorb any jutsu no matter how powerful are big things in his favor. And just because Madara was a pathetic shell of his former self doesn't mean he was weaker than Itachi. Just not like he was before the 4th stopped him. You can call somebody a pathetic shell and they still be stronger than you if they were stronger than they were or if his personality is changed. Itachi also says he's not worthy to be the strongest or something along those lines. Hinting that Madara is more powerful than he.

Madara tried twice...and lost twice. That could be a good reason why he didn't. And he got revenge on the Uchiha at the price of leaving Konoha alone. Just because he's the villain doesn't mean he can't be a man of his word to leave Konoha alone.

No he wasn't talking about Jiraiya, if he was talking about Jiraiya he wouldn't have changed the statement and go and go from talking about "him" then referring to "his" as somebody else (that somebody else is Jiraiya) that was a mistranslation that is fixed in newer translated manga's due to the misconception everyone got, again even Kisame says afterwards that Itachi could've beaten him and questions why they left, but Itachi needed to rest.

Pein cannot absorb any jutsu, he even gets affected by Genjutsu, even Jiraiya was able to affect him with Genjutsu, and i highly doubt he can absorb amaterasu.

Itachi says "Today, Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self. He's no longer worthy of being considered the greatest Uchiha"
meaning today, he's just a pathetic shell of what he used to be, he no longer is worthy of having the title of of the greatest Uchiha.
Going by that, he is alot weaker and isn't considered the greatest Uchiha anymore.

Madara ISN'T a man of his word thats the thing, he waited until AFTER Itachi died to disobey him. If he was a man of his word he'd stick by his word. Thats all just speculation anyway.

All we know is, Itachi made it so that Madara didn't harm Konoha, and Madara waited until after Itachi was dead before he took action against Konoha. Also, Madara didn't touch Sasuke until after Itachi was dead as well.

Kento
That whole conversation was about Jiraiya. Who else would they be talking about? They weren't talking about Naruto.

His absorbing is like a dispell. He can absorb any ninjutsu despite the level. He could absorb Amaterasu. At least according the the databook.

Well no need to keep a bargain after the guy died now is there. And Itachi only knew what Madara wanted him to. I seriously doubt Itachi even knew Madara's power. He even says in the same statement that Madara's sharingan power is just as strong as ever. He also says he was going to take Sasuke's eyes to surpass him. Meaning he hadn't surpassed him.

He went after Sasuke because he wants something from Sasuke. It's a lot easier to manipulate Sasuke without his hate and want to kill Itachi. It's also easier to manipulate Sasuke by telling him the truth about his brother and implanting thoughts to destroy Konoha. I highly doubt Madara cared if Itachi was alive or not. He didn't send Pein to destroy Konoha either. He sent Pein to get Naruto. He wants to destroy Konoha himself. He's failed twice. That's probably a good reason he hasn't done it again. That and Itachi made a deal of sorts with him that night they met didn't he? Which he probably only planned on keeping as long as Itachi was alive not after his death.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Kento
That whole conversation was about Jiraiya. Who else would they be talking about? They weren't talking about Naruto.

His absorbing is like a dispell. He can absorb any ninjutsu despite the level. He could absorb Amaterasu. At least according the the databook.

Well no need to keep a bargain after the guy died now is there. And Itachi only knew what Madara wanted him to. I seriously doubt Itachi even knew Madara's power. He even says in the same statement that Madara's sharingan power is just as strong as ever. He also says he was going to take Sasuke's eyes to surpass him. Meaning he hadn't surpassed him.

He went after Sasuke because he wants something from Sasuke. It's a lot easier to manipulate Sasuke without his hate and want to kill Itachi. It's also easier to manipulate Sasuke by telling him the truth about his brother and implanting thoughts to destroy Konoha. I highly doubt Madara cared if Itachi was alive or not. He didn't send Pein to destroy Konoha either. He sent Pein to get Naruto. He wants to destroy Konoha himself. He's failed twice. That's probably a good reason he hasn't done it again. That and Itachi made a deal of sorts with him that night they met didn't he? Which he probably only planned on keeping as long as Itachi was alive not after his death.
They definately are not talking about Jiraiya, or else they wouldn't have switched and referred him as someone else, they could have talking about the Kyuubi Bijuu, because they were talking about the subject/being, then said that his caretaker is one of the sanin, which means they couldn't have been talking about Jiraiya.

Which means Madara isn't a man of his word.. Only one of Peins body was able to absorb Ninjutsu but they are still able to be caught in genjutsu, which Itachi is a master of catching people in.. what databook btw?

That whole taking Sasuke's sharingan for whatever reason line was a BS line anyway, he said surpass the invincible madara, which i'm guessing he was referring to when he was in his younger days, but not the pathetic shell that he is today.

Naruto is in Konoha and thats why he couldn't get Naruto, because Itachi put konoha off-bounds. Then right when Itachi died he announced Konoha is not off-limits anymore and Pein attacks. There was no deal, thats just speculation like i said, all we know is that Madara didn't do anything as long as Itachi was there, and only did things after Itachi died, if Madara was still so powerful as he was i dont think itachi was refer to him like he was inferior.

Kento
Even so. Kisame still says they are petty to Jiraiya. And Itachi refers to him being stronger. Or it could just be they just switched from talking about Jiraiya after talking about his strength to Naruto back to Jiraiya.

The 3rd one I think. It should be the only one that has anything to do with him. The newest one. There is also a difference between Jiraiya's genjutsu and Itachi's. Itachi's is sight-based while Jiraiya's was sound-based. Pein also wouldn't be caught off-guard with Itachi and genjutsu. After all..Jiraiya wasn't a genjutsu user so he could catch Pein off-guard.

Taking Sasuke's sharingan was a lie sure. That doesn't mean the line about Itachi being weaker was. Madara being a shell of his former self didn't have anything to do with Madara's power. He states that Madara's alive and that his power is still just as strong. I think it's more his personality and everything that's become a shell of his former self. That he's changed into something that maybe once had a noble cause to somebody scheming and using everybody. Now he's just somebody who wants revenge and has forgotten the reason. At least that was my take on it. Maybe not that exactly but it was more about Madara in general not his power. Itachi wanted his brother safe if he wanted his brother safe from Madra, and was so much stronger than Madara then he could have killed him yet he didn't. Instead he resorted to giving Naruto a new ability.

Naruto has been all over not just in Konoha. Madara could have attacked him plenty of times. Itachi and Kisame went after Naruto but was stopped by Jiraiya. They didn't really need him then though. Now he's the last..or well one of the last two needed before Pein's goal is completed. Even before Itachi died Tobi told Pein to capture Naruto.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Kento
Even so. Kisame still says they are petty to Jiraiya. And Itachi refers to him being stronger. Or it could just be they just switched from talking about Jiraiya after talking about his strength to Naruto back to Jiraiya.

I'd say Kisame is one of the strongest if not the most powerful of the 7 swordsman, and speaking bluntly, Kisame is Itachi's *****, takes orders from Itachi and seems to always praise his power.


Itachi is much smarter then Jiraiya, and more advanced genjutsu users with so many different ways of catching people in genjutsu, even if Pein had his guard up i'm sure Itachi could figure out a way to put atleast a couple of his bodies in genjutsu.


He didn't state that madara's power is still the same, everything he said positive prasing Madara was about the past Madara, and everything he said about present Madara is about how pathetic he is now, and that he's not worthy of being considered the greatest Uchiha anymore. He didn't want to kill Madara, i believe Itachi agreed with his views and the sacrifices needed to achieve the greater good, and thats why he collaberated with him in the extermination of Uchiha and joining akatsuki, like i said i think Itachi is willing to make the sacrifices the only thing he wouldn't sacrifice was his brother, and thats why he put on the anti-madara eyes incase Madara betrayed him and went for his brother.


Yes he told Pein that but Pein couldn't do anything until Itachi was dead because Naruto was believed to be in Konoha in which Itachi put off-limits to any Akatsuki members other then himself. But if Madara is so much superior then Itachi why does he obey Itachi's order? The "Madara is a man of his word" thing is not true because he didn't obey his word.

Kento
Originally posted by Terryc250
I'd say Kisame is one of the strongest if not the most powerful of the 7 swordsman, and speaking bluntly, Kisame is Itachi's *****, takes orders from Itachi and seems to always praise his power.


Itachi is much smarter then Jiraiya, and more advanced genjutsu users with so many different ways of catching people in genjutsu, even if Pein had his guard up i'm sure Itachi could figure out a way to put atleast a couple of his bodies in genjutsu.


He didn't state that madara's power is still the same, everything he said positive prasing Madara was about the past Madara, and everything he said about present Madara is about how pathetic he is now, and that he's not worthy of being considered the greatest Uchiha anymore. He didn't want to kill Madara, i believe Itachi agreed with his views and the sacrifices needed to achieve the greater good, and thats why he collaberated with him in the extermination of Uchiha and joining akatsuki, like i said i think Itachi is willing to make the sacrifices the only thing he wouldn't sacrifice was his brother, and thats why he put on the anti-madara eyes incase Madara betrayed him and went for his brother.


Yes he told Pein that but Pein couldn't do anything until Itachi was dead because Naruto was believed to be in Konoha in which Itachi put off-limits to any Akatsuki members other then himself. But if Madara is so much superior then Itachi why does he obey Itachi's order? The "Madara is a man of his word" thing is not true because he didn't obey his word.

Doesn't mean Itachi is the strongest just because Kisame is weaker.

And Itachi being a genjutsu user isn't going to be able to surprise Pein with a genjutsu. Jiraiya has the element of surprise. He also used a sound based genjutsu. All of Itachi's are sight based. A sound based one would be a lot easier to trap somebody in. Even more so when they aren't expecting a non-genjutsu user to use one.

Itachi even says that after his defeat at VoTE that Madara remains alive and well as does his eyes and power He also talks about needing more power to surpass the 'invincible and immortal' Madara. He may be lying about wanting Sasuke's eyes but I highly doubt he is lying about anything else. Itachi also knew what Madara was going to do. It wasn't a just incase thing. It was a he knows Madara was going to do it. And he doesn't have the same views. Madara is out for revenge against Konoha. Itachi was out to save Konoha. Madara even said to Sasuke that he was looking for a war when Itachi found him and made him an offer. Revenge against the Uchiha but to leave Konoha alone. He got half of what he wanted so why would he attack Konoha after making a deal? It never says the full terms of the deal either just they made one. Madara could have made the deal until Itachi died being immortal it wouldn't matter how long he had to wait.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Only to defenseless pussies, he wouldn't dream of doing it to Jiraiya or Itachi, Itachi could probably take out 10 buildings with a swipe of the sword of totsuka, Itachi would take out Peins bodies one by one until theres none left. Of course itachi doesn't want to fight Konoha, remember he's not actually that evil, nor does he even like to fight unless he has to. Madara is in Itachi's words "pathatic" Madara was already suspecting itachi of doing something like that, and had his guard up.

If Madara wanted to burn Konoha why didn't he do it? If he can defeat itachi why does he obey Itachi order of not touching Konoha? Not all of his attacks were used to fight defenseless pussies, his rockets, his ability to deflect all attacks, his rods, his power to absorb chakra, and his various other uber haxx's would work on Itachi, specifically the rods, if Itachi were stabbed by even one, his chakra would be fvcked up, and more than one would stab him. Totsuka could not take out 10 buildings, since, you know, it is not a physical sword, and Susano drains his chakra so much that using it would be very not good. You say that Itachi would be fine with destroying a country if it meant world peace, yet he is not willing to sacrifice a single village? You are contradicting yourself. Madara is in Itachi's words also,"An invincible immortal." And don't play some BS saying he was talking about the Madara years ago, as he used the present tense to refer to him. Madara was not suspecting it, he even showed surprise at it.

Gee, it couldn't be because he has tried before, and failed? Hell, he had the Kyuubi back then. It was not an "order" first of all, Itachi came to MADARA begging for help to kill the Uchiha clan, but wanted Madara to leave Konoha alone while doing it, Madara, who wanted revenge against his own clan especially, agreed.

Itachi did not agree with Akatsuki or its goals, if he did, he wouldn't have been a spy for Konoha. So therefore, if he could of killed MAdara and prevented his bro from joining them, he would of.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Kento
Doesn't mean Itachi is the strongest just because Kisame is weaker.

If Kisame is most likely the strongest in the mist swordsmen, and Kisame is Itachi's *****, then Itachi is > the swordsmen..

He won't need to surprise Pein, he's so versatile in genjutsu that its almost impossible to not be caught in his genjuts. Yeah well Pein is going to have to look at Itachi to defeat him, and imo, sight is more deadly, its possible to defeat people without sound, but its almost impossible to defeat someone if you cannot look at them.


It says that after his defeat he remains alive and his eyes power is still intact, and then after talking about the past he talks about the present and goes on to say he's just a pathetic shell, and cannot be considered the greatest anymore.

Actually that whole entire phrase about wanting Sasukes eyes is a lie, when Madara talks to Sasuke, and explains everything

Sasuke goes Itachi told me everything;
It goes on the flashback about Itachi talking about Madara and saying "the only person who can surpass the invincible Madara and achieve true immortality is me"
You framed the uchiha, you and itachi were toying with us all

Madara goes on to say that its a lie, and that itachi didn't want sasuke to learn the truth so he fed him a false story




Theres really nothing Pein can do to Itachi if he unleashed Susanoo, none of his attacks will work, his little rod would do absolutely nothing

Heres the direct quote from the 3rd Databook of Susanoo

""Amaterasu", representing "the material world and light" and "Tsukuyomi", symbolizing "the spiritual world and darkness", are two jutsu that can only be used by the ones who awakened the "Mangekyou Sharingan", the almighty eyes that can see through anything. The power of the violent god resides in the ones who are able control both jutsu: that is Susanoo. The chakra becomes tangible and takes the shape of the great, strong belligerent god. His fighting spirit doesn't abate until he has destroyed all the enemies before him.
Susanoo possesses a flawless offense and defense thanks to the "incorporeal tools" he holds in both of his hands. The "Sword of Totsuka" in his right hand cuts down any opponent, while the "Mirror of Yata" in his left hand rejects any attack. Material, incorporeal, ninjutsu, physical attacks: all these have no meaning in front of the god."

"The sake coming out of the gourd takes the shape of a sword, the Sword of Totsuka. The spirits absorbed by the sword also get sealed inside of the gourd."
"Totsuka no Tsurugi (Sword of Totsuka) - It's like a Sword of Kusanagi enhanced with the power to send the people it stabs to a world of illusions similar to the dream of a drunken person and seal them for eternity. It has a built-in sealing jutsu."
"Yata no Kagami (Mirror of Yata) - An incorporeal shield. It possesses all the chakra qualities (elements) and is able to render any attack vain by changing its own quality accordingly."

Just because the sword is not physical it doesn't mean it cannot cut down physical things:

http://i34.tinypic.com/2gwygbc.jpg


One swipe and it cut off 7 giant hydra snakes, while with the Susanoo covering Itachi, Pein won't beable to harm him. Hell, even Sasukes ultimate thunder technique couldn't put a scratch on Itachi and Susanoo didn't even fully take its form
Now THAT is ub3r h4xx!

Itachi was diseased dead when he fought Sasuke, and already givin his power to Naruto, Madara said:
"Disease was eating away at him from the inside and he knew his time was short. He pumped himself full of all kinds of medicine to keep himself alive.."

Yet even still he was able to pull off lots of jutsus, amaterasu, tsukiyomi, Susasnoo, if it was full-powered Itachi, Itachi would definately take out Peins bodies, not neccesarily kill Pein himself, but he'll take out his bodies.

The goal of akatsuki is world domination, thats what Pein explained to the entire organization, Itachi most likely agrees as he probably thinks its for the greater good in the end, but he knows Konoha should be safe because of his presence. Although he still didn't trust Madara and thats why he put the fail-safes just if the slightest chance Madara goes after Sasuke and betrays his word after he dies.


Umm.. no.. He didn't go begging Madara to help him kill the clan haha, Madara wanted to kill the clan, and Itachi offered to help him with his goal on one condition, if he didn't make moves on Konoha.


He wasn't a spy for Konoha... where did you get that from? The only information Konoha got on Akatsuki was what Jiraiya told them, infact Itachi was protecting Akatsuki and their goals, when Kakashi knew about Akatsuki and their goals Itachi was surprised and was going to take Kakashi.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Theres really nothing Pein can do to Itachi if he unleashed Susanoo, none of his attacks will work, his little rod would do absolutely nothing

Heres the direct quote from the 3rd Databook of Susanoo

""Amaterasu", representing "the material world and light" and "Tsukuyomi", symbolizing "the spiritual world and darkness", are two jutsu that can only be used by the ones who awakened the "Mangekyou Sharingan", the almighty eyes that can see through anything. The power of the violent god resides in the ones who are able control both jutsu: that is Susanoo. The chakra becomes tangible and takes the shape of the great, strong belligerent god. His fighting spirit doesn't abate until he has destroyed all the enemies before him.
Susanoo possesses a flawless offense and defense thanks to the "incorporeal tools" he holds in both of his hands. The "Sword of Totsuka" in his right hand cuts down any opponent, while the "Mirror of Yata" in his left hand rejects any attack. Material, incorporeal, ninjutsu, physical attacks: all these have no meaning in front of the god."

"The sake coming out of the gourd takes the shape of a sword, the Sword of Totsuka. The spirits absorbed by the sword also get sealed inside of the gourd."
"Totsuka no Tsurugi (Sword of Totsuka) - It's like a Sword of Kusanagi enhanced with the power to send the people it stabs to a world of illusions similar to the dream of a drunken person and seal them for eternity. It has a built-in sealing jutsu."
"Yata no Kagami (Mirror of Yata) - An incorporeal shield. It possesses all the chakra qualities (elements) and is able to render any attack vain by changing its own quality accordingly."

Just because the sword is not physical it doesn't mean it cannot cut down physical things:

http://i34.tinypic.com/2gwygbc.jpg


One swipe and it cut off 7 giant hydra snakes, while with the Susanoo covering Itachi, Pein won't beable to harm him. Hell, even Sasukes ultimate thunder technique couldn't put a scratch on Itachi and Susanoo didn't even fully take its form
Now THAT is ub3r h4xx!

Itachi was diseased dead when he fought Sasuke, and already givin his power to Naruto, Madara said:
"Disease was eating away at him from the inside and he knew his time was short. He pumped himself full of all kinds of medicine to keep himself alive.."

Yet even still he was able to pull off lots of jutsus, amaterasu, tsukiyomi, Susasnoo, if it was full-powered Itachi, Itachi would definately take out Peins bodies, not neccesarily kill Pein himself, but he'll take out his bodies.

The goal of akatsuki is world domination, thats what Pein explained to the entire organization, Itachi most likely agrees as he probably thinks its for the greater good in the end, but he knows Konoha should be safe because of his presence. Although he still didn't trust Madara and thats why he put the fail-safes just if the slightest chance Madara goes after Sasuke and betrays his word after he dies.


Umm.. no.. He didn't go begging Madara to help him kill the clan haha, Madara wanted to kill the clan, and Itachi offered to help him with his goal on one condition, if he didn't make moves on Konoha.


He wasn't a spy for Konoha... where did you get that from? The only information Konoha got on Akatsuki was what Jiraiya told them, infact Itachi was protecting Akatsuki and their goals, when Kakashi knew about Akatsuki and their goals Itachi was surprised and was going to take Kakashi. Funny, Pein can deflect attacks and one body can asborb them, and unlike Itachi, it won't destroy his chakra while doing it. Thing is, Susano can be avoided, and it drains Itachi severely, as do all of his attacks.

Itachi after one Amaterasu, and one Tsukiyomi while healthy was tired. Yet he can use all these uber haxx jutsus one after the other in a fight with Pein, who also has uber haxx, but does not tire himself out with it. One of the rods hits Itachi, his chakra is fvcked, and there goes his haxx.

Itachi agrees with blowing up countries, starting and then ending wars with Biju, and killing whole villages so that people can feel pain like Pein? Cause that is pretty much Pein's goal. That totally contradicts Itachi's own beliefs, and saying it doesn't is idiotic, Itachi was a completely peaceful man, who never liked to fight anyone, if he wanted Akatsuki's goals to actually succeed, he would have killed Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, and Kurenei and then tryed to fight Jiraiya, since by your own words he is fine with blowing up countries to achieve peace.

Yeah he did, he found Madara and asked for HIS help to kill his clan, then join Akatsuki, but under the pretense that Konoha be safe. Why screw up a deal and lose one of your strongest allies? Madara can avoid all of Itachi's attacks, this is fact. When he fought Team 7 and others, he toyed with them.

Itachi was going to take Kakashi? I suppose that is why he let him live?

Astner
Question is why did Itachi hate Madara so? He helped him kill his entire clan, true. But Itachi agreed with it. Madara didn't tell Sasuke the whole truth.

Anyhow, Pein should win. He's not only a master in every field of ninjutsu, but also the one with the Rin'negan. The first known to have had it since the founder of ninjutsu.

And since ninjutsu seemed to be an evil thing in Jiraiya's story, he's the root of it all.

Some people will argue that the Eternal Mangekyo is more powerful but fact is--Pein haven't lost a single battle with the Rin'negan. Madara had the eternal Mangekyo against Hashirama, and lost.

Dark-Jaxx
Pein has also never fought anyone noteworthy other than Jiraiya(who Pein admits would have killed him if he found out the secret of the Six Paths of Pain) and Hanzo, who only beat a younger, weaker Sannin.

And we have no idea HOW Madara was beaten by Hashirama, for all we know he controlled the Kyuubi and made it attack Madara.

braveheart
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Pein has also never fought anyone noteworthy other than Jiraiya(who Pein admits would have killed him if he found out the secret of the Six Paths of Pain) and Hanzo, who only beat a younger, weaker Sannin.

And we have no idea HOW Madara was beaten by Hashirama, for all we know he controlled the Kyuubi and made it attack Madara.

this is true but i think if madara does understand the six path of pein, pein will beat him but then again we dont kno everything bout madara's and pein's powers

Dark-Jaxx
Well we know Madara has the most powerful Sharingan, we know his jutsu makes him as fast as light(at least Zetsu compares him to it), we know it allows him to allow any attack to pass through him, and we know his Sharingan controlled the Kyuubi.

braveheart
tru tru but i just think he has a few more tricks in his sleve but i dont think it will b a fair fight cause pein will probly call on his other forms if he is gettin beat

Kento
Madara, and Pein > Swordsmen also. I'm also pretty sure any of the Hokage's minus Tsunade are > Swordsmen also. Being stronger than Kisame doesn't make Itachi the strongest in the series.

Pein doesn't exactly have to look at Itachi from the front. He can have one all around and the ones in front won't need to see. And it's not like catching one or two in a genjutsu is going to help him at all when he has to fight six. Not to mention the spamming of summons. With sight you can only do what's in front or looking at you. Sound it doesn't matter and you can't block sound in the middle of a fight as easily anyway.

It's says 'Alive and well as does his eyes and their power.' He also calls him 'an invincible immortal he has to surpass' more or less. He talks in the present tense both times. He's not talking about the past tense then. Even after calling him pathetic he still calls him superior in power. Being pathetic doesn't always have to do with power.

He said Itachi was lying about him using Kyuubi to attack Konoha. He never says Itachi is stronger than him.

Just because Madara says something to Sasuke, who he's using anyway, doesn't make it the truth. Itachi may have been trying to come off psycho but I'm sure a lot more truth, minus the stealing his eyes, came from Itachi not Madara.

Sure there is. Just summon more bodies. It's not like Itachi is going to be able to get Nagato.
And since the defense is a mirror how is it going to deal with an attack from all sides. Susasnoo sounds more like it's better suited to fighting one person.

There are some bodies Itachi just won't take out. Like absorbing Pein. And probably Yaihiko Pein unless Kakashi figures out how to beat him. He'll also have to deal with multiple summons, and attacks from multiple-directions.

Madara is the leader. He called Madara his teacher. I'm also sure whatever Pein wants isn't the same as what Madara wants. He's just using Pein like he does everybody else. Itachi joined because of Madara not anything Pein had to say. Even if Pein's thoughts and what he wants to do are the exact opposite of the way Itachi has been potrayed.

Yea he got help from Madara to kill the Uchiha and in return for Madara leaving Konoha alone he got to kill the Uchiha. The whole terms of the deal is unknown though. For all we know Madara only promised to until Itachi died. Or figures that Itachi is dead the agreement is off because well why honor it with a dead man. It had nothing to do with Itachi's strength that he hadn't attacked. Maybe he just didn't want to be beaten again. And he's not exactly attacking Konoha himself anyway. He's getting Sasuke to do it. Pein just sort of took the roundabout way of looking for Naruto by destroying the village.

Impediment
Read me, please.

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