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Ok, this is actually my first gauntlet, so lets see how it goes.

Mace Windu and Depa Billaba fight:

1. 5 MagnaGuards
2. Kar Vastor
3. Farfalla, General Hoth and Master Worror
4. RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan
5. Mara Jade and Kyle Katarrn
6. Darth Maul and RoT Darth Zannah
7. Raska Lsu and Sarro Xaj
8. Galen Marek and ANH Vader
9. Count Dooku
10. Lumiya and Darth Caedus

They get two days rest between each battle. If one of them dies, obviously, they are not 're-spawned.'

All fights take place in a neutral setting, with no prep time for either party. Combatants start 100 m apart.

How far do they get?

The order is quite messed-up. If it's dark-side Anakin and Obi-Wan, Mace and Depa make it past them- if it's not, they stop right there. Otherwise, they probably make it to Marek/Vader.

I don't think that they'd get stopped by the 'dream team.' I would say Mace >>> Anakin and Kenobi >= Depa. Depa's saberwork actually surpassed Mace. I'd say that she could keep Kenobi occupied while Windu takes out Anakin, at which point Kenobi would be overwhelmed by two Vapaad practitioners. Why do you think that Mace's team could take DS Anakin but not LS Anakin?

The 'Vaapad-effect,' presumably, although dark-side Anakin is a considerably greater warrior than his Jedi incarnation.

If they manage to edge by Marek and Vader - which they very well may not - they slaughter Dooku and probably complete the gauntlet.

Originally posted by Faunus
The 'Vaapad-effect,' presumably, although dark-side Anakin is a considerably greater warrior than his Jedi incarnation.

If they manage to edge by Marek and Vader - which they very well may not - they slaughter Dooku and probably complete the gauntlet.

I really hate the 'Vapaad effect.' It should not make them weak to Lightsiders. What about the Caedus fight? Mace = Caedus?

I think they'd be hard pressed to make it past round three. Hoth is pretty beastly and his companions are all way more experienced than Mace or Depa.

haha...yeah. Hoth has done what to compare? Or Farfalla for that matter? And Worror doesn't even carry a saber.

Hey we all know that anyone before PT you are biased against, so I'm not even going to bother.

You've obviously never seen me argue for Sarro Xaj, Bane, Kas'im or Raskta Lsu.

So is that a roundabout way of conceding the argument, Glentract? I'll ask again:
What have Hoth or Farfalla done to compare to Depa or Mace in battle?

Glentract, don't do that. I do recall a time when you had your hand so far up Ragnos's ass that when I looked at his Wookieepedia picture, I saw your fingers rather than his teeth.

They either stop at 10 or clear the gauntlet. I'm leaning towards them clearing it, though.

Overestimating the Vaapad. They lose on fourth fight. This is the Clone Wars greatest heroes, not average Jedi. Here's the scenario

1.Easily (you know why)
2.Good fight
3.Win, but tired (come on, 3 man?)
4.Kicked in the ass (already tired)

Don't bring that fighting many droid in Geonosis fact. This is lightsaber wielder, not a blaster wielder. It's different. Anyone who says they'll clear the gauntlet, they must be.... well, big fan of Vaapad.

Originally posted by Faunus
The 'Vaapad-effect,' presumably, although dark-side Anakin is a considerably greater warrior than his Jedi incarnation.

If they manage to edge by Marek and Vader - which they very well may not - they slaughter Dooku and probably complete the gauntlet.
If they make it past vader and marek, they will not finish. They will die at Caedus and Lumiya. Darth Caedus was second only to luke during the lotf period, and that says a lot.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You've obviously never seen me argue for Sarro Xaj, Bane, Kas'im or Raskta Lsu.

So is that a roundabout way of conceding the argument, Glentract? I'll ask again:
What have Hoth or Farfalla done to compare to Depa or Mace in battle?

It's more the fact that they were the best of the Jedi during the thousand year war rather than any particular feats.

BTW, Gideon, I argued against Ragnos quite a few times in the past. The Ragnos vs. the PT Jedi Temple, for instance, left a lasting dislike of me by alot of the "antediluvians".

Originally posted by Ultimate Vader
Overestimating the Vaapad. They lose on fourth fight. This is the Clone Wars greatest heroes, not average Jedi. Here's the scenario
Greatest heroes =/= greatest swordsmen/duelists. They were good in combat. This means nothing against other Force users. The Dooku fight proves that. (at least the first half)
Originally posted by Ultimate Vader

1.Easily (you know why)
2.Good fight
3.Win, but tired (come on, 3 man?)
4.Kicked in the ass (already tired)

I didn't mean for fatigue to be a factor. Therefore it is not. Please feel free to omit that variable from future considerations.
They get two days rest between each battle.
Originally posted by Ultimate Vader
Don't bring that fighting many droid in Geonosis fact. This is lightsaber wielder, not a blaster wielder. It's different. Anyone who says they'll clear the gauntlet, they must be.... well, big fan of Vaapad.
If you refer to the 'droid army' feat, it would be irrelevant, because killing a large number of 'grunts' does not translate to superior tactics against force users. Also, bear in mind that Worror is a non-combatant; he uses Battle Meditation. While in the trance, he is defenseless.

Nothing suggests that any of the Ruusan (sp?) era Jedi would have a chance against the two Vapaad masters.

Originally posted by skywalker833
If they make it past vader and marek, they will not finish. They will die at Caedus and Lumiya. Darth Caedus was second only to luke during the lotf period, and that says a lot.

Caedus was getting beat by Mara Jade. And Vaapad is great against Dark Side users.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It's more the fact that they were the best of the Jedi during the thousand year war rather than any particular feats.

BTW, Gideon, I argued against Ragnos quite a few times in the past. The Ragnos vs. the PT Jedi Temple, for instance, left a lasting dislike of me by alot of the "antediluvians".

In almost any instance of Ragnos vs. any individual, or his individual power, or his dueling ability, or him vs. a multitude of people people-let us not forget the 'Ragnos vs. Palpatine, Bane and Exar Kun' thread, you were throwing support in behind the Antediluvians. Or Exar vs. the PT Jedi council. You won't be accusing me of anything or bringing up the past, Glentract.

And where were they 'the best' of the Jedi then? Why does that make them on par or superior to people like Depa and Mace? Farfalla was slaughtered by Bane one on one, for instance.

Is there anything to support your claim beyond vague status of the time that has no bearing on two of the best warriors of a later time?

By the by, out of curiosity, I decided to give a look see to find this thread..
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-391686-exar-kun-naga-sadaow-marka-ragnos-vs-not-enough-room.html

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by tdtd
IKC how would you debate this one? The whole council included Yoda, Mace, and at a time Dooku. I wouldn't put Kun above Yoda but equal to him, then you have master swordsmen like Windu and Dooku, so it's definitely fanboyism.

There is zero proof in your crappy post. IKC makes very good arguments and unlike you, is not a fanboy. I suggest you read he post and consider his proof before you spit more of your stupidity.

This thread breaks the rules, but Ancient Sith still pwn.

I'm not seeing much dislike of the Antediluvians there.

Damn.

Will Glentract go into self-exile or make amends for his selective memory?

Either 10 or clears it.

Originally posted by skywalker833
If they make it past vader and marek, they will not finish. They will die at Caedus and Lumiya. Darth Caedus was second only to luke during the lotf period, and that says a lot. Yeah. A distant second.

IMO they get to 10, not sure if they can take Jacen and Lumiya though.

EDIT: The order of this gauntlet is nuts.

Originally posted by Faunus
Yeah. A distant second.
You guys really underestimate caedus. I HATE caedus and yet I still recognize how powerful he is.

He's a distant second to LUKE...that's not anywhere NEAR close to us underestimating him

I love Caedus and recognize how powerful he is. You know who was terrible? Jacen Solo before he decided to become a Sith. (sarcasm- I'm learning)

I really did like Caedus though. He just got kinda whiny at the end.

WTF.

Caedus was a tremendous joke.

a.) The weak-ass One Sith found him LOL-inducing. Krayt would later refer to him as a "Sith lightning rod."

b.) He's a moron. Do you realize that, with the exception of his defeat of Kyle Katarn, he practically never won a fight/duel/battle?

c.) He's a moron. Yes, I realize I've already said this in the above point, but his immeasurable depth of stupidity warranted reiteration.

d.) His motivations were a joke. At least Anakin, though he didn't admit to it, knew that his actions were unjust and wrong. He just didn't care. Meanwhile, Caedus deludes himself into thinking that his actions are noble.

Vergere's philosophy? Yeah, there's some merit to that. Lumiya's blatant "I AM SO ****ING WITH YOU!" lies, on the other hand? No.

Lumiya: "Sith are galactic peacekeepers. To follow the Sith is to follow peace."

Everyone with half a brain: "Um... Palpatine, Count Dooku, Darth Maul, Darth Vader, Darth Bane, Darth Revan, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Marka Ragnos, Darth Malak, Darth Bandon, Darth Plagueis, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd. Since when was "domination" synonymous with "peace," you dumb *****?

e.) He ordered the murder of Gilad Pellaeon. I hope Gentleman Gil is kicking the shit out of him in the afterlife.

Originally posted by Gideon
WTF.

Caedus was a tremendous joke.

a.) The weak-ass One Sith found him LOL-inducing. Krayt would later refer to him as a "Sith lightning rod."
That's Krayt letting the big dog draw the heat from them's all

He fought how many, exactly, though? He DID kill Mara and the other losses were against Luke and Jaina. When he was noticeably letting her kill him

At times, yeah

Well, he IS insane....he mainly thinks 'everything for Allana'

Caedus knows Lumiya is utterly dishonest, but her explanation of Vergere is true. Jacen doesn't trust Lumiya fully. He even tries to kill her on a few occasions

Jacen's knowledge of Sith history is limited to 'Gramps and Palps.' and maaaaybe a bit on Exar Kun. Contrast to Vectivus...Lumiya said the men who are evil as Sith were dark and corrupt before that, opposed to the just, noble Vectivus.
Jacen's vision of a galaxy consumed by war if Lumiya died, forcing him to kill Luke didn't help either

Blame THAT on Tahiri.

Originally posted by Gideon
WTF.

Caedus was a tremendous joke. As a thinking, fleshed out character, perhaps. As a tank- a malevolently evil force? I thought he filled the role of misguided ****tard quite well.
Originally posted by Gideon

a.) The weak-ass One Sith found him LOL-inducing. Krayt would later refer to him as a "Sith lightning rod." Good to know. I really never knew that.Originally posted by Gideon


b.) He's a moron. Do you realize that, with the exception of his defeat of Kyle Katarn, he practically never won a fight/duel/battle?Good to know. I'd never thought of it that way. This doesn't actually provide support for the assertion that 'he's a moron', however much I agree with you. Originally posted by Gideon


c.) He's a moron. Yes, I realize I've already said this in the above point, but his immeasurable depth of stupidity warranted reiteration.Example: Killing the bounty hunter with the force. Ex. 2: burning Kashyyk. He really wasn't unintelligent, he was just dumb. Originally posted by Gideon


d.) His motivations were a joke. At least Anakin, though he didn't admit to it, knew that his actions were unjust and wrong. He just didn't care. Meanwhile, Caedus deludes himself into thinking that his actions are noble. Yeah... Originally posted by Gideon


Vergere's philosophy? Yeah, there's some merit to that. Lumiya's blatant "I AM SO ****ING WITH YOU!" lies, on the other hand? No.She reminds me of a wannabe Kreia. Originally posted by Gideon


Lumiya: "Sith are galactic peacekeepers. To follow the Sith is to follow peace."That's BS. Originally posted by Gideon


Everyone with half a brain: "Um... Palpatine, Count Dooku, Darth Maul, Darth Vader, Darth Bane, Darth Revan, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Marka Ragnos, Darth Malak, Darth Bandon, Darth Plagueis, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd. Since when was "domination" synonymous with "peace," you dumb *****?That way we can dominate them into getting along. Just like the USA! Originally posted by Gideon


e.) He ordered the murder of Gilad Pellaeon. I hope Gentleman Gil is kicking the shit out of him in the afterlife.
He's never going to live that down, is he? Really- you order the unneeded murder of one totally Badass character, and everyone hates you for life...


Caedus wasn't great. He wasn't clever, sympathetic, or captivating. He was a portable tank, capable of challenging DBZ Luke when Luke was holding back, for at least the first 8 books. Then he just gets tooled. I really wanted to like it. I just couldn't. Now I'm using selective memory to shelter my psyche from the trauma of the waste of my favorite next-generation Jedi.

Originally posted by Gideon
WTF.

Caedus was a tremendous joke.

a.) The weak-ass One Sith found him LOL-inducing. Krayt would later refer to him as a "Sith lightning rod."

b.) He's a moron. Do you realize that, with the exception of his defeat of Kyle Katarn, he practically never won a fight/duel/battle?

c.) He's a moron. Yes, I realize I've already said this in the above point, but his immeasurable depth of stupidity warranted reiteration.

d.) His motivations were a joke. At least Anakin, though he didn't admit to it, knew that his actions were unjust and wrong. He just didn't care. Meanwhile, Caedus deludes himself into thinking that his actions are noble.

Vergere's philosophy? Yeah, there's some merit to that. Lumiya's blatant "I AM SO ****ING WITH YOU!" lies, on the other hand? No.

Lumiya: "Sith are galactic peacekeepers. To follow the Sith is to follow peace."

Everyone with half a brain: "Um... Palpatine, Count Dooku, Darth Maul, Darth Vader, Darth Bane, Darth Revan, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Marka Ragnos, Darth Malak, Darth Bandon, Darth Plagueis, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd. Since when was "domination" synonymous with "peace," you dumb *****?

e.) He ordered the murder of Gilad Pellaeon. I hope Gentleman Gil is kicking the shit out of him in the afterlife.

QFT Brilliant Post. it should be pasted into every single Caedus thread in the forum.

Ah, finally I find people who hate Caedus. Nice to meet you.

don't forget, he lost to Jaina in the end. Unfair as the fight was, he lost to jaina. That means probably any number of jedi masters could have defeated him too. Mara almost did. Kyle lost, but was admittedly distracted by the combat he was directing around him, and pulling a speeder into Kyle that Kyle didn't even know was there PROBABLY shouldn't hold up under the analysis of this forum. (as i've come to understand it recently)

Kyp Durron vs. Caedus would be pretty even, IMO. And i would pick Kyp. (cause who is gonna sit and argue that jaina >Kyp?)

Caedus was ready to slice Kyle's limbs off when Kolir saved him. Caedus was solidly better than Kyle.

And Jacen was not even fighting back with Jaina most of the time. He let her kill him.

I absolutely hate caedus, and wish i could agree with you Gideon, but I can't. If you've read Inferno you would know that the Luke vs Caedus fight was pretty close.

Originally posted by skywalker833
I absolutely hate caedus, and wish i could agree with you Gideon, but I can't. If you've read Inferno you would know that the Luke vs Caedus fight was pretty close.

it really wasn't. Have you read Jacen's take on that fight? I've posted it before. I'll post it again if i can find it, but it is made crystal clear that Luke owned Caedus. You have to remember, the fact that Luke even HAD that duel with Caedus is because he totally owned caedus into believing he had died.
Also, surely you have read the scenario where Luke holds caedus in his chair, completely unable to move, right? that makes them sound really close...
Finally: You read Invincible? If you read invincible you know exactly how much that already impressive gap between luke and caedus grew when it describes the facts that even Caedus's vision of the future, the one thing that had been driving him from TRAITOR were put in his head by luke.
He never did figure out that luke wasn't even in the room in the duel in which he lost his arm. he thought luke took that arm off until he died. not to mention the times that he thought a fleet was chasing him when it was a vision from Luke.

Luke humiliated Jacen over and over and over. Distant second is being plenty generous.

Originally posted by truejedi
don't forget, he lost to Jaina in the end. Unfair as the fight was, he lost to jaina. That means probably any number of jedi masters could have defeated him too.
Did you read the book? She sniped his arm in their first duel while he was fighting the mandos then he let her take the arm(which was just hanging there and was useless) in that duel, so even one handed he almost killed her in their first duel(and second for that matter) and not to mention the role Luke played in that duel screwing with Caedus's mind. Then in the second duel she stabbed in the back (through the stomach) while hiding in the force before the duel even began. This is a good passage from the begining of their second duel.



And he still nearly killed her despite all of that.

I would hope that a fully rested jedi master (like Katarn if he was 100%) could win those advantages, hell I'm not even sure he was fully healed from the duel with Luke(he wasn't during katarn's 4v1 ambush), the duel against the 4 jedi ( I believe he got hit with a blaster bolt at one point), and the injury he got from the mando when he went to rescue Tahiri.

yeah, you make a good point about that. neither of the fights with Jaina were fair. Which is probably a good thing, or we would have to be including Jaina as being as strong as Darth Vader too.

I hate agreeing with Gideon on anything, but he's right. Caedus sucked as a character. The only thing he had going for him was that he was stronger than OT Vader, by a mysterious amount. Then again, so was SK.

I'm always right. That's why it's simply stupid to argue with me.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm always right. That's why it's simply stupid to argue with me.

Then I'm glad you agreed that Maul would have a good chance at besting Dooku in a duel.

I never denied it. In fact, I've supported that idea far before you ever contaminated this forum with your inferiority.

I just disagreed with your insinuations that he's equal to or better than Dooku. Because he's not.

Originally posted by Gideon
I never denied it.

I never said you did.

Originally posted by Gideon
I just disagreed with your insinuations that he's equal to or better than Dooku. Because he's not.

He's a better duelist. With the Force? Dooku's better. I've already acknowledged that.

Both are ridiculously accomplished swordsmen. But only one is a prodigious Force-user. Which is why Dooku is more dangerous and more powerful.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In almost any instance of Ragnos vs. any individual, or his individual power, or his dueling ability, or him vs. a multitude of people people-let us not forget the 'Ragnos vs. Palpatine, Bane and Exar Kun' thread, you were throwing support in behind the Antediluvians. Or Exar vs. the PT Jedi council. You won't be accusing me of anything or bringing up the past, Glentract.

And where were they 'the best' of the Jedi then? Why does that make them on par or superior to people like Depa and Mace? Farfalla was slaughtered by Bane one on one, for instance.

Is there anything to support your claim beyond vague status of the time that has no bearing on two of the best warriors of a later time?

I would still put Ragnos in probably the top five. If I said that he would take Exar, Palpatine, and Bane, that was probably out of ignorance of the time.

They were the best of that periods Jedi because they led the Army of the Light. Hoth was the number one guy and after he was killed by the thought bomb Farfalla then took his place. I don't think that Depa or Mace could take Bane either. He's simply above any of them. And Farfalla was pretty certainly a fair bit below Hoth.

Mainly, these Jedi were actually warriors, not peacekeepers. They had real battle experience with other lightsaber users on a regular pretty regular basis. We can't completely compare them in all areas because we simply don't have enough info to do that with Farfalla and Hoth.


BTW, I think Cadues was a decent character. At least we got to get inside his head better than basically any other Sith. And he died honorably.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I would still put Ragnos in probably the top five. If I said that he would take Exar, Palpatine, and Bane, that was probably out of ignorance of the time.

They were the best of that periods Jedi because they led the Army of the Light. Hoth was the number one guy and after he was killed by the thought bomb Farfalla then took his place.
There weren't Sith left to fight at the end. Do these Jedi have ANY feats or backing placing them even close to powerhouses like Mace and Depa?

Depa? Maybe not. Msce? Would certainly be capable of taking on Bane and potentially killing him. All of Bane's advantages: his pure strength, his unique saber, his knowledge of his opponents' forms? Nullified. Mace is one of the best duelists who ever lived. He was able to take on Palpaitne, a Sith more powerful than Bane, for one.

Those 'peacekeepers' were still described by GL as the 'Prime' of the Jedi when he was speaking about combat. Mace was a warrior through and through, too.

And? This makes them better...how? Farfalla's feats can be summed up with "killed a dying Kopecz, jobbed to Bane."

We have Mace and Depa as incredible warriors and nothing of the sort for Farfalla and Hoth. Why should we place them even close to Mace or Depa with no evidence behind it?

Originally posted by Lightsnake


Depa? Maybe not. Msce? Would certainly be capable of taking on Bane and potentially killing him. All of Bane's advantages: his pure strength, his unique saber, his knowledge of his opponents' forms? Nullified. Mace is one of the best duelists who ever lived. He was able to take on Palpaitne, a Sith more powerful than Bane, for one.

Why should we place them even close to Mace or Depa with no evidence behind it?

QFT I don't believe you can compare the Ruusan period with the PT. the PT is called the time of the greatest strength by the jedi. The ruusan period... never referenced either way.

Keep in mind, the very essence of Bane's order puts him, the most powerful force user of the time, at the very BOTTOM of the sith scale.
Likely? No. possible? most definitely.

I wouldn't go THAT far, TJ...Bane's clearly a powerhouse, even if the Brotherhood as a whole was a bit....low on the scales.

Of course, considering guys like Kaox Krul, Kopecz, Kas'im...(Ok, the most alliterative Sith Order EVER...) the Brotherhood was certainly not weak.

Originally posted by truejedi
QFT I don't believe you can compare the Ruusan period with the PT. the PT is called the time of the greatest strength by the jedi.No, it isn't. It's referred to as the golden age of the Jedi in comparison to the OT.

It's kind of a given that Jedi who grow up fighting the last battles of a thousand-year war are more battle-hardened than Jedi that study the "Diplomacy Form" like Johun Othone and act as peace-keepers, not soldiers.

Are you trying to come across as completely retarded? I'd read your earlier posts with the ABC arguments and hoped dearly that it was all some twisted, completely humorless joke, but apparently you've lost it.

@LS:

Doesn't PoD have Bane learning all of Kas'im's techniques and tactics during their nightly sparring sessions (yes, I know it sounds weird)? I'd check on the Russian site, but PoD doesn't work.

Originally posted by Faunus
No, it isn't. It's referred to as the golden age of the Jedi in comparison to the OT.

It's kind of a given that Jedi who grow up fighting the last battles of a thousand-year war are more battle-hardened than Jedi that study the "Diplomacy Form" like Johun Othone and act as peace-keepers, not soldiers.

Are you trying to come across as completely retarded? I'd read your earlier posts with the ABC arguments and hoped dearly that it was all some twisted, completely humorless joke, but apparently you've lost it.

@LS:

Doesn't PoD have Bane learning all of Kas'im's techniques and tactics during their nightly sparring sessions (yes, I know it sounds weird)? I'd check on the Russian site, but PoD doesn't work.
I have a copy of the book saved in word. Want it for future reference?
Here's the full quote:

The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.
He knew all the moves of Kas'im with a DBL, but a single or double blade with Kas'im's skill'd be a different story and there's nothing I find about Bane knowing the ins and outs of every single form

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I have a copy of the book saved in word. Want it for future reference?
Here's the full quote:

The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.
He knew all the moves of Kas'im with a DBL, but a single or double blade with Kas'im's skill'd be a different story and there's nothing I find about Bane knowing the ins and outs of every single form That might've been it. My mistake.

Not a problem. Hope that helped

Weren't we debating something a few days ago? I thought that was on this thread.

Haven't heard that. All I recall is that it was labelled the "prime of the Jedi," not once do I recall having seen or heard that it was conditioned on a relative comparison to the original trilogy.

Especially since, to Lucas, you don't see a "real Jedi" throughout the entirety of the OT. Nothing to compare the OT to the PT.

Originally posted by Gideon
Haven't heard that. All I recall is that it was labelled the "prime of the Jedi," not once do I recall having seen or heard that it was conditioned on a relative comparison to the original trilogy.

Especially since, to Lucas, you don't see a "real Jedi" throughout the entirety of the OT. Nothing to compare the OT to the PT. I'm going by what Ush has said.

Clearly, hearsay sucks.

I might be mistaken. But I never am.

Except when you are.

But I never am. You can't be wrong when you're perfect. Not that I expect you to understand.

Off the top of my head, you claimed in one long-ass thread or another that neither you nor LS had called the ancient Sith weak when he had literally just labeled them "jokes." You then responded with "damn."

I think we were debating Kas'im vs. Bane in Ro2...given that Kas'im with a single saber or dual wielding would be another animal.

And Lucas just said "The Jedi fighting in the Prime of the Jedi.' He didn't give much by way of comparison to the PT.

Originally posted by Faunus
No, it isn't. It's referred to as the golden age of the Jedi in comparison to the OT.

actually... no its not that i know of. Can you give me a source?



believe it or not, no. Now, i was ready to debate your point with you here, but reading the paragraph above that i was ready to debate, i notice you didn't actually make a point.... so too bad, i can't do that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There weren't Sith left to fight at the end. Do these Jedi have ANY feats or backing placing them even close to powerhouses like Mace and Depa?

No Sith left? What about the entire Brotherhood of Darkness?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Depa? Maybe not. Msce? Would certainly be capable of taking on Bane and potentially killing him. All of Bane's advantages: his pure strength, his unique saber, his knowledge of his opponents' forms? Nullified. Mace is one of the best duelists who ever lived. He was able to take on Palpaitne, a Sith more powerful than Bane, for one.

This is were the pivotal disagreement is. I have never agreed with the idea that Sidious was the most powerful Sith who had lived up to that point. He most certainly BECAME the most powerful, but as of ROTS he was far from the top. Bane has shown power far beyond was Mace or Sidious has demonstrated.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Those 'peacekeepers' were still described by GL as the 'Prime' of the Jedi when he was speaking about combat. Mace was a warrior through and through, too.

Mace lacked real lightsaber against lightsaber experience. Hoth and Farfalla have that benefit. The peacekeepers were NEVER described as the best Jedi in combat. Since combat was never the Jedi's primary role, the 'prime' of the Jedi wouldn't automatically be the best combatants ever.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And? This makes them better...how? Farfalla's feats can be summed up with "killed a dying Kopecz, jobbed to Bane."

So take a solider who has trained in combat for years and then take another who has actual combat experience on multiple occasions. Throw the two into a fight with each other and the one with more experience in that field will usually win. The experience of having actual combat is a major advantage.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We have Mace and Depa as incredible warriors and nothing of the sort for Farfalla and Hoth. Why should we place them even close to Mace or Depa with no evidence behind it?

We can put them way up there because they were the best of a group of Jedi who actually lived in a time when fighting Sith was common.

glentract... what quality of sith though? they were all held under mind control at ONE TIME by a Lord Kaan who didn't even realize that he DIDN'T have the control of Bane's mind as he thought he did. That by itself points at the fact that those sith were at the least, much weaker than any PT sith we see.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
No Sith left? What about the entire Brotherhood of Darkness?


By the end? Hoth and Farfalla were commanders. The only battle I know Farfalla took active command in was the last battle of Ruusan. Hoth was seen leading from the camp during the last three battles. The first, he wasn't present in, the second he arrived and cleared off a small force of Sith there...3rd's the one he saw active combat in.


And? In the Dark Side Sourcebook, Palpatine is directly named the most powerful Sith of Bane's order. In the New Essential Chronology, the Vader Ultimate Guide, Palpatine's named the most powerful Sith ever. His power exceeds Bane there and considering he had Bane's holocron and time to master all of Bane's knowledge?
And in saber abilities, Mace and Palpatine have demonstrated more than Bane



prime of the Jedi in regards to combat. The 'peacekeepers' have that from GEORGE LUCAS'S MOUTH. What does that tell you?

Ok. So why was he talking combat? The Prime of the Jedi's duelists included Yoda, Mace, Obi-wan, Qui-Gon, Depa, Anakin, Agen, Kit, Shaak Ti, Sora Bulq...I'm probably leaving some out. Mace has trained with a sparred with a great deal of them. And in sabers, Mace outmatched the monster that was Grievous. Mace has overcome any weakness his 'peacekeeping' era has by what he's shown up. Sora Bulq, General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, Palpatine? Mace's faced them all. And he's shown what he's good for with a saber.



Tiny problem? When that order of 'warriors' includes Johun Othone, the argument is badly diminished. Mace and his ilk have far greater showings and backing in the text than any of those warriors.
Farfalla, again, did little but job to Bane. While on BM. Mace, by contrast, has been seen to handle Grievous, fight Palpatine, decimate droid armies, take on Kar Vastor and do lots of crazy things.
Stop clinging to the idea that the Jedi being involved in war is in any way, shape or form enough evidence for them to be able to stand to Depa and Mace. And seriously, JOHUN has more experience than Mace or Depa if you want to play that game.
Fact is, who've demonstrated greater power? Mace and Depa. Who've shown superior blade skills? Depa and Mace. Who have the textual backings? Depa and Mace? Hoth, by the by, lacked the speed to kill Kaan from a short distance away before Kaan raised his hands, yelled "Well gone" and clapped them to unleash the Thought Bomb.
Yes, we can probably definitively say Mace and Depa can take him and Farfalla.



And again...so? Mace was a warrior through and through who fought numerous battles from his youth on and battled personally against one of the most monstrous Jedi killers in history and personally duelist the most powerful Sith who ever lived.

Is there anything Hoth and Farfalla have behind them besides a brief assertion of their era's prowess, which isn't near enough when you consider everything Depa and Mace have, and their status as warleaders? Anything at all?

Originally posted by Lightsnake

prime of the Jedi in regards to combat. The 'peacekeepers' have that from GEORGE LUCAS'S MOUTH. What does that tell you?

You do realise that the "Prime of the Jedi" was meant purely in comparison to the OT, in which the only Jedi/Sith fighting involved a novice (Luke), an elderly hermit (Kenobi) and a half machine (Vader). Not everything a person says is meant literally. In this case it was a relative comment. Lucas probably never even thought about the novels or anything besides the movies at all.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tiny problem? When that order of 'warriors' includes Johun Othone, the argument is badly diminished.

Why? In ANY era of any fighting discipline there are always going to be anomalies. There are always going to be people who just aren't that good. Saying "Ruusan-era Jedi suck because they had ONE guy who wasn't very good" is a pretty silly thing to say. ONE person is not a representation of the entire order.

Originally posted by chilled monkey


Why? In ANY era of any fighting discipline there are always going to be anomalies. There are always going to be people who just aren't that good. Saying "Ruusan-era Jedi suck because they had ONE guy who wasn't very good" is a pretty silly thing to say. ONE person is not a representation of the entire order.

well, they were having trouble winning a war against an army of sith that were of low quality themselves (see the reasoning i have above, ala Kaan's mind control of the entire order)

Originally posted by truejedi
well, they were having trouble winning a war against an army of sith that were of low quality themselves (see the reasoning i have above, ala Kaan's mind control of the entire order)

That doesn't lessen their level of combat experience. I mean hell, they were sucking up children into their ranks, that's how voilent this period was. These Jedi were clearly all battle hardened soldiers who had been fighting their entire lives.

PT era Jedi were peacekeepers, not soldiers, as Mace Windu himself mentions. They did not regularly engage in battle against massive armies (the Stark Hyperspace War, etc were all small scale) until the Clone Wars happened.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You do realise that the "Prime of the Jedi" was meant purely in comparison to the OT, in which the only Jedi/Sith fighting involved a novice (Luke), an elderly hermit (Kenobi) and a half machine (Vader). Not everything a person says is meant literally. In this case it was a relative comment. Lucas probably never even thought about the novels or anything besides the movies at all.
Except it wasn't. Lucas says 'Prime of the Jedi' that the Jedi are fighting in. He does not make a direct comparison and even if he doesn't consider the EU, his word=law


Johun was a veteran and Lord Hoth AND Farfalla's padawan.

Johun sucks enough to drag down the entire average. That he's the prodigy of the two best Jedi Masters of the order doesn't help matters

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Johun was a veteran and Lord Hoth AND Farfalla's padawan.

Johun sucks enough to drag down the entire average. That he's the prodigy of the two best Jedi Masters of the order doesn't help matters

I could just as easily point to Sora Bulq's Padawan (Mira I think her name was). Sora was supposed to be one of the best swordsman in the Order, heck he was the guy who helped Mace INVENT Vaapad. And yet his Padawan was cut down instantly by Assajj Ventress.

Ventress: "Is this meant as an attack?"

If Sora's Padawan was such a poor fighter, what does that say about PT-era Jedi?

And what's with this "Johun sucks" attitude anyway? He beat three highly trained fighters and held his own for a while against an elite fighter who used weapons he was completely unfamiliar with. Anyone who can do that shouldn't be sneered at.

Not to mention he was able to land a blow on Bane (albeit with Battle Meditation aid).

Heck, I like him because he's NOT some super-duellist. Makes a refreshing change.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
I could just as easily point to Sora Bulq's Padawan (Mira I think her name was). Sora was supposed to be one of the best swordsman in the Order, heck he was the guy who helped Mace INVENT Vaapad. And yet his Padawan was cut down instantly by Assajj Ventress.

Ventress: "Is this meant as an attack?

If Sora's Padawan was such a poor fighter, what does that say about PT-era Jedi?
Ask more what it says about Asajj Ventress. This IS the same woman who was able to fight Kit Fisto, y'know.


He beat several Force sensitive thugs and was about to be killed by a non force sensitive fighter. This is NOT impressive. His movements are described as 'clumsy' by Zannah and in that fight, he's an utter hindrance. He only lasts because of Raskta against Bane. His attacks are noted as 'painfully predictable' as well.


When Bane was distracted by Farfalla and Raskta going for his head. Johun's utter incompetence meant Bane KEPT the hand and cost them the fight

He's an idiot, a buffoon, an awful fighter and thanks to him, the Sith persisted. Without Johun, Zannah would've died early on and Sarro could have helped Raskta and Farfalla, assuring a quick end for Bane.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Johun was a veteran and Lord Hoth AND Farfalla's padawan.

Johun sucks enough to drag down the entire average. That he's the prodigy of the two best Jedi Masters of the order doesn't help matters Coleman Trebor was on the Jedi Council. 'Nuff said.

And since when is Johun a "prodigy"? If you mean "protege," that's not really indicative of anything, and it's a really dumb argument if you're trying to insinuate that because Johun sucked, the Ruusan-era Order sucked. Like it or not, they were far more battle-hardened than the PT Jedi as a whole.

That said, I think it was noted in PoD that the Jedi were trying to scrounge up whatever was available, even getting the most mildly Force-sensitive children they could find. The PT Jedi sent all those who weren't selected as Padawans by the age of thirteen to some sort of public service corporation, and Mace seemed to speak with disdain for a weaker girl in Dark Rendezvous. So it's likely that the average Force-sensitive in the PT Order was more attuned to the Force than the average Force-sensitive in the Ruusan Order.

Originally posted by Faunus
Coleman Trebor was on the Jedi Council. 'Nuff said.

And since when is Johun a "prodigy"? If you mean "protege," that's not really indicative of anything, and it's a really dumb argument if you're trying to insinuate that because Johun sucked, the Ruusan-era Order sucked. Like it or not, they were far more battle-hardened than the PT Jedi as a whole. I'm just saying he drags down the average and battle hardened or not, the tops of the Ruusan era-Raskta aside- tend to fail to impress quite a bit. Hoth, for instance. Do you see Agen Kolar or Kit Fisto or Depa Billaba failing to kill Kaan before he yells "Well Gone" and claps his hands?

I'm not using Johun as evidence for any massive suckage of the Ruusan order because they weren't. Just that with a few notable exceptions, we've seen the PT leaps and bounds above the Ruusan era.

That would pretty much account for Tomcat, rain and Bug and the like, but Johun was about twenty by then and Hoth's personal student.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm just saying he drags down the average and battle hardened or not, the tops of the Ruusan era-Raskta aside- tend to fail to impress quite a bit. Hoth, for instance. Do you see Agen Kolar or Kit Fisto or Depa Billaba failing to kill Kaan before he yells "Well Gone" and claps his hands?

I can. No disrespect to those three, I know they're all 'very' fast, but it doesn't take much time to clap your hands.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm not using Johun as evidence for any massive suckage of the Ruusan order because they weren't. Just that with a few notable exceptions, we've seen the PT leaps and bounds above the Ruusan era.

A valid point, although to be honest, the PT have had a lot more appearances and thus more chances to show their stuff.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That would pretty much account for Tomcat, rain and Bug and the like, but Johun was about twenty by then and Hoth's personal student.

Close, he was nineteen (sorry, I'm just kind of picky about details like that.)

Originally posted by Faunus
Coleman Trebor was on the Jedi Council. 'Nuff said.

One could say that Trebor's strength wasn't in his sword arm and that his talents lay in another direction than combat, so he still deserved his position.

Originally posted by Faunus
That said, I think it was noted in PoD that the Jedi were trying to scrounge up whatever was available, even getting the most mildly Force-sensitive children they could find. The PT Jedi sent all those who weren't selected as Padawans by the age of thirteen to some sort of public service corporation, and Mace seemed to speak with disdain for a weaker girl in Dark Rendezvous.

Scout, and to be fair Mace wasn't entirely without sympathy. He stated that there was no shame in working for the Agricultural Corps and that he felt it might be kinder to let her work at her own level (a case of 'being cruel to be kind').

Originally posted by chilled monkey
I can. No disrespect to those three, I know they're all 'very' fast, but it doesn't take much time to clap your hands.
Mace can punch someone twice before they can even blink. Kaan had to raise his hands, shout " Lord Hoth, Well Gone" And then clap to unleash the Thought Bomb...Agen, Kit and Depa have all displayed rather exceptional speed...saying nothing of people like Yoda or Palpatine


This is so, but in the situations they were in, save for Raskta, the others rather underperformed



Heh, fair enough. My point, though, was that he wasn't some kid they just picked up to fight the war but Hoth's personal student.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ask more what it says about Asajj Ventress. This IS the same woman who was able to fight Kit Fisto, y'know.

True, but my point is that just because Mira's Master was some lightsabre genius it doesn't neccessarily mean she will be. Her talents could be in a different area. Same with Johun.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
He beat several Force sensitive thugs and was about to be killed by a non force sensitive fighter. This is NOT impressive. His movements are described as 'clumsy' by Zannah and in that fight, he's an utter hindrance. He only lasts because of Raskta against Bane. His attacks are noted as 'painfully predictable' as well.

Clumsy and painfully predictable by Zannah's standards maybe (and while she may not be 'one of the greatest duellists ever,' I think you'll agree that her weapons skills are nothing to laugh at). I'd say he's still better than a lot of fighters. It's all a matter of perspective.

They weren't thugs; they were stated to be highly skilled opponents. And Kel was an elite warrior (plus as I said he used unfamiliar weapons). So what if he wasn't Force-sensitive? The Force isn't the be all and end all, you know. Plenty of characters are non-Force-sensitive and still very capable. Thrawn for instance (he was a strategist rather than a fighter, but you get the point)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He's an idiot, a buffoon, an awful fighter and thanks to him, the Sith persisted. Without Johun, Zannah would've died early on and Sarro could have helped Raskta and Farfalla, assuring a quick end for Bane.

You could also blame Farfalla for not saying "stay and guard the ship" or "focus on protecting Worror." Or you could say that muscleheaded lummox Sarro was to blame for not saying "get back" or for taking his eyes off Zannah and giving her chance to nail him with the mind-whammy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mace can punch someone twice before they can even blink. Kaan had to raise his hands, shout " Lord Hoth, Well Gone" And then clap to unleash the Thought Bomb...Agen, Kit and Depa have all displayed rather exceptional speed...saying nothing of people like Yoda or Palpatine

Actually Mace hit Vastor SIX times before he could even focus his eyes. And Vastor was described as having 'blinding speed.' So on reflection I'll have to revise this one.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is so, but in the situations they were in, save for Raskta, the others rather underperformed

You have a point there I must admit.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Heh, fair enough. My point, though, was that he wasn't some kid they just picked up to fight the war but Hoth's personal student.

True enough.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
True, but my point is that just because Mira's Master was some lightsabre genius it doesn't neccessarily mean she will be. Her talents could be in a different area. Same with Johun.

Yeah, but Mira's opponent is someone who's very, very skilled and dangerous. We can't know much about Mira's abilities, but we know Asajj is very dangerous



'Than a lot of fighters?' He's described as nothing more than mediocre and even he admits he devotes almost zero effort to keep his skills up. He was matched by and about to be killed an above average assassin...and it's not 'By Zannah's standards.' His strikes are all described as painfully predictable, he demonstrates no imagination and is a poor duelist all around.


When were they described as such? And Kel is a 'highly skilled warrior,' and? Plenty of Jedi have dominated highly skilled warriors. Force sensitives should be faster, stronger, more skilled and Kel being able to DEFEAT Johun says a lot against Johun. If it was Sarro there, do you think any of the killers would've lasted more than a moment? Johun even, again, admits he hasn't kept his abilities from dwindling and puts almost no focus on combat. Any competent fighter should be able to take Kel.
Sensitivity to the force has nothing to do with strategy, btw. It has a lot to do with fighting


Most certainly. Johun was stupid enough to go to finish Zannah himself. Zannah even thinks she wouldn't have survived if Sarro attacked. Johun? His attack lets her recover because she can see exactly where it ends by noticing how it begins.
Johun's pretty bad in a fight. Yes, it was idiotic of Farfalla to let him in an actual fight and worse of Sarro from not keeping him from interfering.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, but Mira's opponent is someone who's very, very skilled and dangerous. We can't know much about Mira's abilities, but we know Asajj is very dangerous

True, but the ease with which Ventress blocks her attack and then cuts her down (even saying "is this meant as an attack?" is a pretty good indicator that Mira's skills are not particularly high. Sora even says, "you are no match for her."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
When were they described as such? And Kel is a 'highly skilled warrior,' and? Plenty of Jedi have dominated highly skilled warriors.

Page 141: "Elite warriors like Kel"

Page 163: "It only took the first pass for him to realise each one was a highly skilled opponent."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Force sensitives should be faster, stronger, more skilled and Kel being able to DEFEAT Johun says a lot against Johun.

Kel did not defeat him. Who was still alive at the end of that fight? Johun won; he just won by means other than his fighting skills.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If it was Sarro there, do you think any of the killers would've lasted more than a moment? Johun even, again, admits he hasn't kept his abilities from dwindling and puts almost no focus on combat. Any competent fighter should be able to take Kel.


Hardly a fair comparison. You're taking a guy from the top of the chart in terms of fighting skill and comparing him to someone at the bottom. Of course they wouldn't have lasted more than a moment; Sarro was one of the best fighters of his Era, hardly an 'average' Jedi.

Besides, you yourself admitted that Johun had gotten rusty by that time. If he had done more than "basic efforts" to keep his skills honed he could well have done better.

Furthermore it clearly states "Yet he was still a Jedi and a formiddable foe for anyone to face."

Originally posted by chilled monkey
True, but the ease with which Ventress blocks her attack and then cuts her down (even saying "is this meant as an attack?" is a pretty good indicator that Mira's skills are not particularly high. Sora even says, "you are no match for her."
As part of their plan was to duel and I sincerely doubt Sora, being a traitor already, was unaware of Ventress's skill and that Ventress has been shown to easily handle two Jedi Masters at a time, no, a single knight like Mira is not going to be a match



Again, though...look at, say, the bounty hunter's guild. Lots of highly skilled warriors and no Jedi in the PT seems to have issues with them in straight fights.



That's splitting hairs a bit. If they kept fighting, Kel'd kill him. In fighting skills, Kel>Johun. I'm not really sure why you're arguing against Johun in Ro2 being just a terrible fighter



One of the best fighters in the era? He was good, sure, but THAT good?

I sincerely doubt he was better as a padawan.

You could say that about any Jedi. A Jedi is supposed to be formidable. But when 'formidable' ends at 'elite thug,' then you've got an issue

Johun did suck. He is the only one who actually drew blood on Bane though. (course, this infuriated bane and ended the fight... He should have just let the others keep chopping away, and eventually Sarro would have killed Zannah, and then maybe together one of them could have stabbed Bane in the head)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As part of their plan was to duel and I sincerely doubt Sora, being a traitor already, was unaware of Ventress's skill and that Ventress has been shown to easily handle two Jedi Masters at a time, no, a single knight like Mira is not going to be a match

Exactly, and that was my point. Just because Sora was a lightsabre ace, it doesn't automatically mean his Padawan will be too.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's splitting hairs a bit. If they kept fighting, Kel'd kill him. In fighting skills, Kel>Johun. I'm not really sure why you're arguing against Johun in Ro2 being just a terrible fighter

Oh, I don't deny that out of all the Jedi/Sith fighters we've seen he's near the bottom. I just think it's an exaggeration to say stuff like he had no skill whatsoever. Anyone who can beat three skilled opponents, despite being rusty, IMO deserves at least some credit.

Plus, as I say, I like the fact that for a change we had a hero who wasn't some amazingly powerful Force-user, or "one of the greatest duellists the Order had ever had." I like that he was an 'everyman' and a basically good guy who just did the best he could despite his limitations.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One of the best fighters in the era? He was good, sure, but THAT good?

"The warrior assailing her had elevated the act of combat to its purest and highest form."

"He executed his moves with a perfect elegance born of obsession."

The point is that he was clearly a lot better at fighting than the average Jedi of the time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I sincerely doubt he was better as a padawan.

Ah but as a Padawan he fought at Ruusan. As Hoth's student he was most likely there from the start.

"Its (Niman's) general versatility had served him well during the unpredictable grand melees of the Ruusan battlefields. But over the past decade he had made only the most basic efforts to maintain his skill with the blade."

It's quite feasible that he was at least a bit better during the war, before his skills got rusty over the following ten years. Heck, why else would it even mention the fact that he had only made basic efforts?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Exactly, and that was my point. Just because Sora was a lightsabre ace, it doesn't automatically mean his Padawan will be too.
Yes, but when the opponent is Asajj Ventress...



Again, why should I expect ANYTHING less of a Jedi? Cay Qel Droma held his own against numerous Onderon fighters, for instance. A Jedi of competent fighting skills would have killed Kel and the others without issue

I dislike him because he's a dolt and an impulsive fool who is singlehandedly responsible for ruining the most important task his era had known.



Ok, point.



A lot of people fought on Ruusan. Tomcat fought on Ruusan. Fighting on Ruusan doesn't equate to even mediocre ability, it equates to fighting on the level of a Republic soldier...and this assuming he saw much active combat

As a Niman user from the start, it's a major mark against him, there.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, but when the opponent is Asajj Ventress...

Various Jedi who were recognised as excellent fighters managed to beat or hold their own against Ventress. Mira being killed so effortlessly, even by Ventress, seems a pretty good indicator that her lightsabre skills, while adequate for most scenarios, are not anywhere near the top.

It's not so much that Ventress beat her, it's how easily she did it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Again, why should I expect ANYTHING less of a Jedi? Cay Qel Droma held his own against numerous Onderon fighters, for instance. A Jedi of competent fighting skills would have killed Kel and the others without issue

Well to be fair he beat the first three without too much trouble, it was only Kel who gave him difficulty. And Kel used weapons that Johun was unfamiliar with, which is a problem for anyone. Remember how Bane was completely flummoxed when Kas'im used two sabres against him? And that's a lot closer to the fighting style he was familiar with.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I dislike him because he's a dolt and an impulsive fool who is singlehandedly responsible for ruining the most important task his era had known.

You're entitled to your opinion. Personally I thought he did the best he could. Sure he made some screw-ups, but hey, so does everyone.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, point.

No problem.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A lot of people fought on Ruusan. Tomcat fought on Ruusan. Fighting on Ruusan doesn't equate to even mediocre ability, it equates to fighting on the level of a Republic soldier...and this assuming he saw much active combat

Tomcat didn't show up until towards the tail end of the war. Johun was their from the start. And it states in the novel that he saw at least some active fighting.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As a Niman user from the start, it's a major mark against him, there.

Not really. Niman is a good style because it's so versatile and doesn't limit its users to any one style. Its like mixed martial arts; a Niman user can do it all; all of their bases are covered.

People tend to point to all the Jedi who died at the arena in Ep II, but remember they were facing an ungodly number of foes. In most scenarios, Niman is quite sufficient.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Various Jedi who were recognised as excellent fighters managed to beat or hold their own against Ventress. Mira being killed so effortlessly, even by Ventress, seems a pretty good indicator that her lightsabre skills, while adequate for most scenarios, are not anywhere near the top.

It's not so much that Ventress beat her, it's how easily she did it.
In the same comic, Ventress is taking on, with utter ease, two masters and a knight simultaneously. She kills two masters with similar ease in Dark Rendezvous



Kas'im was a top tier Duelist and Sith Lord. a Jedi should NOT have trouble with a skilled assassin, weapon or no weapon. Johun was being matched in speed and combat ability there...Jedi have faced unfamiliar weapons before and done fine.



The 'best he could' would have been to realize he was utterly screwing Sarro up when he prevented Sarro from killing Zannah. Johun made one too many mistakes




Indeed, but so did a lot of normal soldiers


Niman is considered an inferior style because it takes in a 'jack of all trades, master of none' view. You learn only the extreme basics of the others but it's a form for those more avoiding blade combat.

It's not much a coincidence that none of the great fighters have been Nima users...It's not sufficient against large numbers or many difficult scenarios.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In the same comic, Ventress is taking on, with utter ease, two masters and a knight simultaneously. She kills two masters with similar ease in Dark Rendezvous

In Dark Rendezvous, Jai Maruk manages to put up a fight against Ventress twice, the second time when he had a wounded leg, impaired mobility, had lost a cupload of blood and was dangerously close to giving in to rage. Maks Leem was seriously injured by assassin droids. She never even had chance to fight Ventress.

Plus, several Jedi who were elite fighters (Mace, Anakin, Kenobi etc) were able to hold their own against or beat Ventress so she is not infallible.

I realise we all like to stick up for characters we like, but I really don't understand why you seem so insistant that Mira was an ace duellist when her own master said she was no match for Ventress. There's no disgrace in not being a top duellist, it just means her strengths lay elsewhere.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kas'im was a top tier Duelist and Sith Lord. a Jedi should NOT have trouble with a skilled assassin, weapon or no weapon. Johun was being matched in speed and combat ability there...Jedi have faced unfamiliar weapons before and done fine.

Not all Jedi are identical. Some just aren't as skilled as others.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The 'best he could' would have been to realize he was utterly screwing Sarro up when he prevented Sarro from killing Zannah. Johun made one too many mistakes

We can probably put that down to overenthusiasm. Remember how determined he was to ensure the Sith were gone so that his master's sacrfice wouldn't be in vain? It overwhelmed his better judgement.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
Indeed, but so did a lot of normal soldiers

True.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Niman is considered an inferior style because it takes in a 'jack of all trades, master of none' view. You learn only the extreme basics of the others but it's a form for those more avoiding blade combat.

It's not much a coincidence that none of the great fighters have been Nima users...It's not sufficient against large numbers or many difficult scenarios.

I realise 'quality over quantity,' but I don't think Niman is as bad as some people seem to think. True, it's "the diplomat's form," but if it were COMPLETELY useless, why even bother learning it? I'd say it's adequate for most attackers (provided there aren't too many).

Some time ago there was a thread where people were claiming tht C3PO in Ep II (when his head was swapped) could beat Niman users on his own and that is going too far.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
In Dark Rendezvous, Jai Maruk manages to put up a fight against Ventress twice, the second time when he had a wounded leg, impaired mobility, had lost a cupload of blood and was dangerously close to giving in to rage. Maks Leem was seriously injured by assassin droids. She never even had chance to fight Ventress.

Plus, several Jedi who were elite fighters (Mace, Anakin, Kenobi etc) were able to hold their own against or beat Ventress so she is not infallible.
When did I say she is? There's a firm difference between a random knight like Mira and the elite fighters of the Order

I don't care much about Mira. The point is, dismissing her saber abilities because she got beat by Ventress is absurd.
And I hate Ventress as a character



And Johun is less skilled than most



And this undercuts my point about him being an impulsive dolt how?





Because it's quicker, easier and prevents you from devoting too much time to combat?

Yes it is.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't care much about Mira. The point is, dismissing her saber abilities because she got beat by Ventress is absurd.
And I hate Ventress as a character

The point is not that she got beat. It's the speed and ease with which she was killed.

1. Mira attacks. Ventress blocks it while saying "is this meant as an attack?"

2. Sora tells Mira to get away because "you are no match for her."

3. Ventress cuts down Mira while saying "no she wasn't."

Compare that to Jai Maruk who twice was able to put up a fight before being defeated.

And no one is "dismissing her saber abilities." I'm sure she'd have done fine against most opponents. I was just saying that there's nothing to suggest that she was an exceptionally skilled swordsman.

Originally posted by Lightsnake


True.

Originally posted by Lightsnake


But why teach it at all if it has no practical value? If that were the case they could just leave it out completely and focus entirely on diplomatic skills. Why spend time on it unless it has at least some effectiveness?

And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sidious a Niman user?

Originally posted by Lightsnake


Cool.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The point is not that she got beat. It's the speed and ease with which she was killed.

1. Mira attacks. Ventress blocks it while saying "is this meant as an attack?"

2. Sora tells Mira to get away because "you are no match for her."

3. Ventress cuts down Mira while saying "no she wasn't."

Compare that to Jai Maruk who twice was able to put up a fight before being defeated.

Jai Maruk was a Jedi master. Mastery (Mastership?) isn't handed out like candy in the PT.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
But why teach it at all if it has no practical value? If that were the case they could just leave it out completely and focus entirely on diplomatic skills. Why spend time on it unless it has at least some effectiveness?
A jedi must be able to use the lightsaber. It was a symbol of power and status. Niman wasn't worthless- It simply wasn't effective as a combat style. It could be used, but didn't garner the same results as a more specialized form would.

Originally posted by chilled monkey

And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sidious a Niman user?

You're wrong. Sidious mastered all 7 forms. I don't think he used any specific form, rather he used all of them.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


Jai Maruk was a Jedi master. Mastery (Mastership?) isn't handed out like candy in the PT.


Okay, here is a quote from Wookiepedia:

"Mira was a former Padawan to Sora Bulq, who unlike her master, was not a particularly skilled lightsaber combatant."

You want to insist that she was one of the greatest fighters in the Order, provide some proof.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Okay, here is a quote from Wookiepedia:

"Mira was a former Padawan to Sora Bulq, who unlike her master, was not a particularly skilled lightsaber combatant."

You want to insist that she was one of the greatest fighters in the Order, provide some proof.

You clearly missed the point.

Maruk was a master. That is a good showing of (some) level of mastery. Mira was not a master. That is also an indicator of power. Ventress is able to ruin multiple masters at once. To be able to wreck Mira in a one on one situation does not diminish Mira's capabilities. Ventress is good.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You clearly missed the point.

Maruk was a master. That is a good showing of (some) level of mastery. Mira was not a master. That is also an indicator of power. Ventress is able to ruin multiple masters at once. To be able to wreck Mira in a one on one situation does not diminish Mira's capabilities. Ventress is good.

Evidently so have you. Here is the quote from Wookiepedia again:

"Mira was a former Padawan to Sora Bulq, who unlike her master, was not a particularly skilled lightsaber combatant."

Are you claiming that this quote is inaccurate? Do you believe that Mira was one of the best lightsabre combatants in the Order?

Heck, I rather like her, but I have to be honest. Nothing indicates that she was exceptionally skilled fighter. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to accept.

Yes, Ventress is good. She is an exceptionally good combatant. Mira was not of comparable skill. Are you saying otherwise?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Evidently so have you. Here is the quote from Wookiepedia again:

"Mira was a former Padawan to Sora Bulq, who unlike her master, was not a particularly skilled lightsaber combatant."

Are you claiming that this quote is inaccurate?

While I believe that whoever the author is probably has a good reason for writing,the fact remains that this particular line is not directly sourced, means (to me anyway) that one must get what is really said in Jedi: Mace Windu.

As EH pointed out, that source is uncited. ()



Can you really not see the disconnect? You are using her defeat to a highly skilled combatant as the basis for your disdain of her abilities. If she lost to NJO Luke you would not call her weak. If she lost to Sidious you would not call her weak. That she fought someone above her skill level does not make her weak.

"But wait!" you say. She lost to Ventress, not NJO Luke or Sidious. While Ventress did not outclass Mira to the same degree that these two combatants would, she was still far above her capabilities. Ventress could take multiple Jedi Masters. Losing to her is not a disgrace. That's all I want you to admit. Losing to her wasn't an indication of lack of skill.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Can you really not see the disconnect? You are using her defeat to a highly skilled combatant as the basis for your disdain of her abilities. If she lost to NJO Luke you would not call her weak. If she lost to Sidious you would not call her weak. That she fought someone above her skill level does not make her weak.

Who the heck said ANYTHING about her being weak? I've said that I rather like Mira and I'm sure she would do fine against 'regular' threats. All I've ever said is that she isn't an EXCEPTIONALLY good duellist, is not one of the best swordsmen ever etc.

Not being one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order does not make one weak. Suppose I said (for example) "Spiderman isn't as strong as the Hulk." Would you then accuse me of calling Spiderman weak, just because I said he wasn't as strong as the Hulk?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
"But wait!" you say. She lost to Ventress, not NJO Luke or Sidious. While Ventress did not outclass Mira to the same degree that these two combatants would, she was still far above her capabilities. Ventress could take multiple Jedi Masters. Losing to her is not a disgrace. That's all I want you to admit. Losing to her wasn't an indication of lack of skill.

Mira was not an elite duellist. That's all I want YOU to admit.

I apologise for being snotty in my last post. I've been in rather a bad mood today. And yes, to clarify, I know that losing to Ventress is no shame, sorry if I wasn't clear.