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Windu (Vapaad) vs. Kas'im (memorized unholy number of combos.)

1. Saber
2. Force
3. All out

Saber refers to a fight where no offensive force powers are used.

In the Force fight neither of them has a lightsaber.


GO!

1. Kas'im (though it would be very close)
2. Mace Windu
3. Mace Windu (pretty close)

I'd actually like to give Kas'im the all out as well. Granted, he isn't top tier, but the ranks can't be the 'end-all' of vs. matches. His technical proficiency surpasses Mace's, and Mace does not generally use the Force offensively.

It's possible Mace's abilities with a saber surpass Kas'im's. Kas'im can't really surprise him and Mace has an advantage that Kas'im has never seen.

Kas'im knew Juyo, didn't he? Vapaad would be unfamiliar, but not totally unknown. Also, I'd balk at calling Mace > Kas'im in sabers. Mace didn't master every form. He mastered many, but not all. In pure technical ability, he is < Kas'im.

Also, the loop effect would be less drastic because Kas'im relies of superior skill, rather than power to score his wins. Mace would get less 'traction' from the boost against dark siders.

Well, Kas'im's got more technical ability, but Mace is at least familiar with the forms. A specialist like Mace can still defeat a jack of all trades.

Even so, Vaapad isn't something Kas'im's going to know and Mace is just as incredible in ability and skill.

i'm really not sure mace got a boost against darksiders. The darkness referred too came from within himself. (read shatterpoint)
It was Mace's own dance with the dark side everytime he entered combat that gave Vapaad its advantage.

Here: I pick Mace in all 3. Remember, this Kas'im, though the greatest duelist of the BOD, was ultimately defeated by a POD bane, who is nowhere near his ROT self. Yes, kas'im obviously school bane with sabers, BUT Bane hasn't had very many exploits with lightsabers to this point, and at the same time, being the top of the BOD really means NOTHING in comparison to other eras.
Mace windu, whose main combat abilities are based on his exceptional saber skills could be considered one of the top two lightsaber duelists of the ROTS era, and THAT IMO would put him ahead of a top duelist from era of POD. (remember, just because Ka'sim was the best sith, we never saw him duel against a jedi of that era, perhaps the jedi were, pound for pound, better duelist than the sith. We never see sith in combat with jedi at all for that matter. Only later do we see the top of the Jedi order battle bane)
Ka'sim's force defense wasn't enough to save him from a force shove by bane, so mace would hold a clear advantage there.

So IMO, mace,

1. 7/10
2. 7/10
3. 8/10

Mace takes all three.

Originally posted by truejedi
i'm really not sure mace got a boost against darksiders. The darkness referred too came from within himself. (read Shatterpoint)
It was Mace's own dance with the dark side every time he entered combat that gave Vapaad its advantage.
It seems like you say this a lot. I don't know if you've not read the RotS passage carefully enough, or if you want Vapaad to be stronger than it is, but here's the applicable quote:



From this, you must make your own interpretations. Here's mine.

Mace's style is a channel for darkness. It can be fueled by his opponent or by his 'inner darkness'. When it comes from an external source, (e.g. Sidious) it equalizes the disparity between the combatants' Force usage. If Sidious uses Force enhanced Speed, Mace indirectly uses it as well. It can be used against them. The lightning was sent back along the connection- just like the speed.

When faced with an opponent (that needs to be killed) Mace can use his own darkness (described in Shatterpoint) to fuel the loop. This is just how Vapaad works. It can be reasonably assumed (I think) that to use the saber style does not require the use of the metaphysical aspect, although you can't use the Force aspect without the saber style. Did that make sense? You can Saber without the Force, but you can't Force without the Saber.

Originally posted by truejedi

Here: I pick Mace in all 3. Remember, this Kas'im, though the greatest duelist of the BOD, was ultimately defeated by a POD bane, who is nowhere near his ROT self. Yes, kas'im obviously school bane with sabers, BUT Bane hasn't had very many exploits with lightsabers to this point, and at the same time, being the top of the BOD really means NOTHING in comparison to other eras.
I see two problems here:
1. That Kas'im's loss to Bane detracts from his relative skill
-and-
2. That Kas'im's status as 'best of the era' means nothing.


1. Kas'im's loss, if I remember correctly, was due to Bane's superior Force aptitude. It is noted in RoT that focusing on Saber skills exclusively leaves one open to other avenues of attack. This was the downfall of Sarro. The same thing happened with Kas'im. He was unable to defend against Bane's massive TK Force Push. Bane has some of the most destructive TK in the saga, so I wouldn't call that embarrassing.

2. The Ruusan era Sith and Jedi were not slouches in fighting ability. Their skills were honed by years of conflict. While 'best of his time' is not enough to place him anywhere near the top tiers, Kas'im beat Raksta Lsu for the title, an impressive feat. Also, General Hoth comes to mind as an impressive specimen. The title doesn't mean nothing.

Originally posted by truejedi

Mace windu, whose main combat abilities are based on his exceptional saber skills could be considered one of the top two lightsaber duelists of the ROTS era, and THAT IMO would put him ahead of a top duelist from era of POD.
It's true that PT era > Ruusan era. Its also true that in general, duelists were > during the PT. However, your proof is not valid.

Kas'im > Ruusan era.
Mace > PT era.
PT era > Ruusan era.

By the rules of logic that I know so far, (9th grade geometry, and its been a while, so give me a break)

Mace > PT era > Ruusan Era.

PT era ? Kas'im. I know of no method with which to compare the two. There is no direct link. We can't place Kas'im on this scale with the given info.

Originally posted by truejedi

(remember, just because Ka'sim was the best sith, we never saw him duel against a jedi of that era, perhaps the jedi were, pound for pound, better duelist than the sith.
This is unlikely. The Jedi outnumbered the Sith, and yet were unable to defeat them.

Originally posted by truejedi

We never see sith in combat with jedi at all for that matter. Only later do we see the top of the Jedi order battle bane)
I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Please explain.
Originally posted by truejedi

Ka'sim's force defense wasn't enough to save him from a force shove by bane, so mace would hold a clear advantage there.
Mace is not in the habit of force raping other Force sensitive enemies. Yoda taught that the force 'is not a weapon'. I'd be careful about claiming that Mace would bust out the Force Crush/Push when he probably does not know about the destruction of Kas'im by Bane's Push. He wouldn't know to do it, and it would be out of character.
Originally posted by truejedi

So IMO, mace,

1. 7/10
2. 7/10
3. 8/10

Obviously, I disagree.

I'd rather call it
Kas'im
1. 8/10
3. 6/10
Mace
2. 8/10

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


Mace's style is a channel for darkness. It can be fueled by his opponent or by his 'inner darkness'. When it comes from an external source, (e.g. Sidious) it equalizes the disparity between the combatants' Force usage. If Sidious uses Force enhanced Speed, Mace indirectly uses it as well. It can be used against them. The lightning was sent back along the connection- just like the speed.

When faced with an opponent (that needs to be killed) Mace can use his own darkness (described in Shatterpoint) to fuel the loop. This is just how Vapaad works. It can be reasonably assumed (I think) that to use the saber style does not require the use of the metaphysical aspect, although you can't use the Force aspect without the saber style. Did that make sense? You can Saber without the Force, but you can't Force without the Saber.



read pg. 329 from ROTS, that is the quote i've been focusing on. However, your intepretation of the quote from 330 is perfectly valid. I was going to say i didn't think that it really gave mace a power boost really though... I mean, it doesn't say that reflecting the power back at its source was making him anymore powerful than he was before.

but i found something more interesting. The long-standing debate we have about whether sidious was faking. Just to add to it; on pg. 331, Sidious feared mace. had become a "pulsar of fear" To me, that's very interesting. If he was faking, he wouldnt' genuinely fear windu would he?

You didn't read the whole thing.

from 331? i did. And i know Anakin was standing in the doorway at that time, so maybe he was pretending to be scared... but i found the quote interesting.

Originally posted by truejedi
read pg. 329 from ROTS, that is the quote i've been focusing on. However, your intepretation of the quote from 330 is perfectly valid. I was going to say i didn't think that it really gave mace a power boost really though... I mean, it doesn't say that reflecting the power back at its source was making him anymore powerful than he was before.

but i found something more interesting. The long-standing debate we have about whether sidious was faking. Just to add to it; on pg. 331, Sidious feared mace. had become a "pulsar of fear" To me, that's very interesting. If he was faking, he wouldnt' genuinely fear windu would he?

pg 329 and all of Shatterpoint support 'inner darkness', but the rest of the fight shows the loop. I think it is both.

on Pg. 331 Anakin walks in, then it says 'the shadow had become a pulsar of fear'

Later palpatine yells: 'Do you think the fear you feel is mine?'

I take this to mean that Windu felt Anakin's fear, and that Palpatine used it to his advantage. He gueses right, and Anakin sides with the Sith. It was Anakin's fear for Padme.

i'm not disregarding Ka'sim i don't believe. He's my favorite character from both Bane novels, which is a stretch for me, because i usually hate sith. I just don't know why, if he was quite so awesome, why wasn't HE leading the sith? Was Ka'sim > Kaan? Because i believe Mace was. Now if Ka'sim was better than Kaan, then i change my vote, and put it at a stalemate. But Kaan strikes me as pathetic, and i dont think mace would lose to pathetic.

Originally posted by truejedi
i'm not disregarding Ka'sim i don't believe. He's my favorite character from both Bane novels, which is a stretch for me, because i usually hate sith. I just don't know why, if he was quite so awesome, why wasn't HE leading the sith? Was Ka'sim > Kaan? Because i believe Mace was. Now if Ka'sim was better than Kaan, then i change my vote, and put it at a stalemate. But Kaan strikes me as pathetic, and i dont think mace would lose to pathetic.

Kaan had charisma which well Ka'sim had none of. I think that might have something to do with it. Plus again, Kaan was more of a "first among equals" figure.

Originally posted by truejedi
i'm not disregarding Ka'sim i don't believe. He's my favorite character from both Bane novels, which is a stretch for me, because i usually hate sith. I just don't know why, if he was quite so awesome, why wasn't HE leading the sith? Was Ka'sim > Kaan? Because i believe Mace was. Now if Ka'sim was better than Kaan, then i change my vote, and put it at a stalemate. But Kaan strikes me as pathetic, and i dont think mace would lose to pathetic.

Kas'im wasn't leader because he wasn't a politician. He was a warrior. I was never given the impression that he wanted to lead the Brotherhood.

k, i'm pretty much convinced then. I don't like Mace anyway, so its not a hard one to change my mind on.

and yeah, on the Sidious thing, that makes more sense.

I think I just won my own thread.



I'm so happy. Now we must wait for LS to come bash on the Ruusan era Sith, if only to prolong the discussion. I now pronounce LS to be Devil's Advocate! (unless he wants to argue his own opinion- that would work too...)

Tiny detail: Kas'im was around before Kaan took over and given the fate of Na'Daz, adhered to the 'Strongest rules' thing. The three most powerful Sith of the brotherhood were Kaan, Qordis and Kopecz and while I don't doubt Kas'im was a better man with a saber than them, he'd never have submitted when the Sith fell into utter chaos and civil war if he could take anyone and their mother.

Mace would win everything here, although i think that a saber fight between these two would be awesome to watch.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Mace would win everything here, although i think that a saber fight between these two would be awesome to watch.
Indeed it would, as would an actual duel between Dooku, and Mace, though Mace will win, simply due to his Shatterpoint abilities

Kas'im was completely protected from Bane's attack by his Force-barrier; I don't know how you missed that. The wave carried over into the temple's foundations, which then caused the structure to collapse onto Kas'im, presumably killing him.

Originally posted by Faunus
Kas'im was completely protected from Bane's attack by his Force-barrier; I don't know how you missed that. The wave carried over into the temple's foundations, which then caused the structure to collapse onto Kas'im, presumably killing him.

My Master speaks the truth. Kas'im's force shield protected him from Bane's TK...it did not protect the temple around him, however, and the whole thing collapsed on his dome-piece. (Yeah, I'm hood. Wut!?)

In addition to mastering every form, Kas'im is best and deadliest with Jar'Kai. From PoD we learn that two separate lightsabers are always more lethal and dangerous than one, because there are so many more possibilities to defend against, overloading a Jedi's precog, etc. So, I think Kas'im would take sabers for a majority - either 6/7 out of 10. He loses in the Force, though, and I'd say either ties in the all out or gets beaten, taking 4/10.

I'm honestly of the unprovable opinion that the desperate blast by Bane at least knocked Kas'im to the ground with his wind gone because Mr. 'Crosses a room to open a door before the second knock; really shouldn't be standing there as the temple is about to fall.

Still, I'd put Kas'im equal to Mace in sabers, maybe a bit lesser...and En, there's no real advantage to two separate blades, Kas'im just made sure he always had an advantage.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm honestly of the unprovable opinion that the desperate blast by Bane at least knocked Kas'im to the ground with his wind gone because Mr. 'Crosses a room to open a door before the second knock; really shouldn't be standing there as the temple is about to fall.

CIS. Definitely.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Still, I'd put Kas'im equal to Mace in sabers, maybe a bit lesser...and En, there's no real advantage to two separate blades, Kas'im just made sure he always had an advantage.

Kas'im said there is. He mentions that a double-bladed lightsaber is actually more limited than a single blade, but because of it being two blades and a unique style, most people think it gives more options when you actually have less. Same with Githany's laser-whip - much more limited than a single blade, but unique enough to be dangerous. I believe he says that Jar'Kai, though, is more dangerous than a single blade because of there being genuinely more options and each blade being able to move independantly.

How is it that two blades is simultaneously 'no real advantage' and enough of an advantage to overpower Bane? I just don't see it.


This would imply that Kas'im had an advantage other that using two blades. As far as I know, he did nothing other than activate his second saber, without employing any new force technique. Bane simply couldn't keep up with the new permutations of attack- he was overwhelmed.

Not really accurate, Red. Bane was overwhelmed because Jar'Kai was unfamiliar to him. He didn't know the sequences at all.

For what its worth, I think he still would've defeated Bane had Bane been familiar with Jar'Kai.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not really accurate, Red. Bane was overwhelmed because Jar'Kai was unfamiliar to him. He didn't know the sequences at all.

For what its worth, I think he still would've defeated Bane had Bane been familiar with Jar'Kai.

Really? I didn't know that. I thought that Bane had opted out of training with Jar'kai. Wouldn't his rudimentary training give him some sort of defense?

I had forgotten that he hadn't sparred frequently with that style. I'd say that was enough of an advantage for Kas'im- is that why he didn't use the style? To maintain a last resort edge?

Originally posted by Enyalus


CIS. Definitely.
CIS?



He never mentions Jar'Kai save the lie that it's 'inherently flawed.'
Jar'Kai is a form variant, too, and it's one Mace isn't unfamiliar with at all.

Red:
Kas'im didn't use it because he likely felt his skills with a DBL would be enough to take down any other opponent. He 'kept the advantage' with Jar'Kai because he made sure no student knew anything about it, allowing him an edge via a form they'd have no idea how to fight.

Good to know. Maybe it's time for a re-read of PoD.

Actually i take back my earlier admission that Kas'im would beat mace. I must've been smoking something the other day.

mace beat the most powerful sith lord of all time. In one-on-one even combat... Kasi'm was MAYBE according to BANE the greatest duelist in that era, but obviously not so, because Bane was stronger than he. And Sidious > Bane. And mace beat sidious. So bull-crap. what was i thinking? I'm going back to post this here...

This just sounds like ABC to me. Tell me why it is different. Mace vs. Sidious has different factors than Mace vs. Kas'im. The outcome would not be the same.

no, it would be over far more quickly. Mace bested sidious. Sidious is the GREATEST SITH LORD OF ALL TIME.
Kas'im, in his one duel, dies to Bane. Kas'im, is not nearly as strong in the force as sidious. Not even worth mentioning in the same sentence really. B/C he's not in Bane's league either.

Mace beat this guy. When B is sufficiently greater than C, i think and ABC argument is perfectly warranted, and in this case, B >>>>>>C .

Dude. The 'greatest swordsman in the galaxy' comment isn't from Bane's POV.

And CIS stands for Character Induced Stupidity, as PIS stands for Plot Induced Stupidity.

Originally posted by truejedi
no, it would be over far more quickly. Mace bested sidious. Sidious is the GREATEST SITH LORD OF ALL TIME.
Kas'im, in his one duel, dies to Bane. Kas'im, is not nearly as strong in the force as sidious. Not even worth mentioning in the same sentence really. B/C he's not in Bane's league either.
Except that he didn't use the Force as a weapon. Kas'im outclassed Bane once he pulled out his personal style. Bane had to drop a temple on the guy's head just to kill him. Kas'im's fighting style is different from Sidious's: Sidious uses the Force to win- kas'im uses skill. I'd say that that alone invalidates ABC.
Originally posted by truejedi

Mace beat this guy. When B is sufficiently greater than C, i think and ABC argument is perfectly warranted, and in this case, B >>>>>>C .
The problem arises if we accept your proposition as a precedent. It opens the door to dismissing any of Mace's opponents because they are <<<<<<<Sidious. It turns Mace into a God- only approachable by NJO luke and Yoda. He isn't DE Sidious yet... We have to wait for DE 4: Rise of Windu for that to happen.

And the only reason Windu had a chance in that fight was due to his Vaapad emulating Sidious' speed. And even then he needed his shatterpoint to get the win in sabers.

I doubt Kas'im uses speed enough to outclass Mace, and thus there's not really anything there worth emulating.

he would still have his vapaad though... there is some misconception, that since mace is "only good with vapaad" then he isn't really that good with sabers.... But that is ridiculous. Its like saying Kenobi isn't really that good with sabers because he is only good at soresu.

Mace is as good as shown against sidious. period. He's going to be fast enough to counter anything Kas'im will throw at him as well. That just follows. If you put Kas'im above Mace, you are putting him on level of sidious. Could Kasi'm beat Yoda? Sidious?

Mace is on that level.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And the only reason Windu had a chance in that fight was due to his Vaapad emulating Sidious' speed. And even then he needed his shatterpoint to get the win in sabers.

I doubt Kas'im uses speed enough to outclass Mace, and thus there's not really anything there worth emulating.

I actually argued that because Kas'im doesn't use the same level of Force Speed as Sidious, Vapaad would be less effective- the superconducting loop finding less 'traction' as it were.

Also, just to expound on my ideas in a vacuum:
Kas'im's skill > Mace's skill. Juyo only requires mastery of SOME of the forms- not all. We can be sure that he had not mastered Soresu to the same degree as Kenobi.

I'd say that Kas'im's technical skill may even outclass Dooku's.

EDIT To ADRESS TJ:


I hope that I've never made that argument. Vapaad (Juyo) requires 'high end mastery of multiple forms'.



Only he is not always as fast as Sidious, because some of Mace's speed was Sidious's own power thrown back at him. Vapaad will not have as much 'dark power' to throw back in Kas'im's face.

No, he's not. Saberwise he is, sure. Overall? No, both Yoda and Sidious are his superior by a lot. Sidious' Lightning was overpowering Mace even while Sidious was feigning weakness.

Red, if thats all you want to debate, fine, i can give you that one. But anoon bondara is better than yoda in the exact same scenario you are describing. Kas'im says himself that being good enough with sabers will never make up for his lack of force potential. Mace has obviously shown quite an amazing force propensity that kas'im has never even BEGUN to match.

Originally posted by truejedi
Red, if thats all you want to debate, fine, i can give you that one. But anoon bondara is better than yoda in the exact same scenario you are describing. Kas'im says himself that being good enough with sabers will never make up for his lack of force potential. Mace has obviously shown quite an amazing force propensity that kas'im has never even BEGUN to match.

Except that his Force potency is nowhere near Sidious's, so he is not at Sidious's level in that respect. While he is impressive (rockslide, anyone?) he hasn't got the 'MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD' level of force power that he'd need to outclass someone like Bane or Kas'im.

He outclasses Kas'im.

Name one force feat by Kas'im. Only one, thats all i'm asking for.
okay. that's what i thought.

He outclasses Kas'im.

Originally posted by truejedi
He outclasses Kas'im.

Name one force feat by Kas'im. Only one, thats all i'm asking for.
okay. that's what i thought.

He outclasses Kas'im.

No. He doesn't. Mace doesn't use it as a weapon (often- his FC against Grievous was an exception- I'll go get the source material tomorrow.) This means that the relevant part of his force mastery is how adept he is at channeling it into speed. He has 'invisible speed' against Kar Vastor- albeit on a world rich in the Dark Side of the Force that he feeds upon. Bane has Blinding speed vs. Sirak, when he was still a neophyte- something like "it took the spectators' brains a minute to catch up'. Kas'im > Neophyte Bane. By a lot. We can thus discern that Kas'im's speed is at least blinding. Mace's mastery isn't enough to UBERLEETZORPWN11111 Kas'im, which is what is necessary against a duelist of his caliber.

wait a minute... hate to bring this up, but weren't you saying just a few minutes ago that Kas'im doesn't bring that much speed to the table so Mace wouldn't be able to use Vapaad that effectively?

Second: Mace uses the force as a weapon on two occasions: Against Grievous, AND against Kor Vastor, twice (hitting him from behind with what amounted to a TK attack the second time)

Twice is plenty of time to ascertain that he can and will use the force to his advantage with an offensive attack. That is exactly how many times we see PT sidious do the same thing. The same amount of times it is shown by Dooku in the PT (3 if you count the new cartoon, which i still haven't seen)

2 times is plenty. Besides which, i agree with gideon when he says we ascertain what characters are capable of, not what they have done in the past.

Mace will be able to match any speed kas'im can reach, because sidous >kas'im , and mace matched his speed, so your posting, calling Ka'sim's speed a "force feat" (which we have NEVER done before) is irrelevant.

Originally posted by truejedi
wait a minute... hate to bring this up, but weren't you saying just a few minutes ago that Kas'im doesn't bring that much speed to the table so Mace wouldn't be able to use Vapaad that effectively?
I was saying that Kas'im's speed boost is < Sidious's, so Mace's speed boost vs. Kas'im would be < vs. Sidious. That's all.
Originally posted by truejedi

Second: Mace uses the force as a weapon on two occasions: Against Grievous, AND against Kor Vastor, twice (hitting him from behind with what amounted to a TK attack the second time)

The only TK attack I could find was when he doubled his own speed as he flew towards Kar- Hardly a pure TK attack: human missiles are not very applicable to non-Kar Vastor fights.
Originally posted by truejedi

Twice is plenty of time to ascertain that he can and will use the force to his advantage with an offensive attack. That is exactly how many times we see PT sidious do the same thing. The same amount of times it is shown by Dooku in the PT (3 if you count the new cartoon, which i still haven't seen)
Only we've only seen it once, and Jedi using Direct Force attacks is incredibly rare.
Originally posted by truejedi

2 times is plenty. Besides which, i agree with gideon when he says we ascertain what characters are capable of, not what they have done in the past.
This does not mean that we call every fight with Odan Urr a stomp because of Sever Force- It isn't applicable. Also, Jedi simply do not use the force offensively- Windu has broken that rule, but it has only happened once, with a few examples that are debateable.


Originally posted by truejedi

Mace will be able to match any speed kas'im can reach, because sidous >kas'im , and mace matched his speed, so your posting, calling Ka'sim's speed a "force feat" (which we have NEVER done before) is irrelevant.

Mace relied on Sidious to reach Sidious level speed. Mace =/= Sidious level speed. It only works when he is fighting someone as fast as sidious. Because he is not fighting sidious, he will not be as fast as sidious. Simple as that. That's the entirety of this portion of my point.

But he will be as fast as Kas'im.

Yes, but the problem is that I thought TJ was saying that Mace's speed would be = Sidious. It wouldn't, so it isn't a contest of Sidious speed vs. Kas'im speed. That would be a curbstomp.

I was arguing what gideon just said: that he WOULD be able to match kas'ims speed.

Now, consider this: Kar Vastor > than Mace (by mace's admission, you can debate it if you like, since Mace is fallible)

Kar Vastor was unable to see as mace hit him in the face 4, 5 times before Vastor could blink. That was without ANY mention of a speed burst from his opponent. THAT was when Vapaad is being described as a plant that kills you because you can't see how many arms it has until you are dead.

case in point here: mace is incredibly fast on his own right. Faster than Vastor, (because of vapaad, which vastor, AND kas'im doesn't know) So if he is faster than Vastor, who is greater than Mace in the force, he would be greater than Kas'im as well, who is inargueably below windu in power
(your contention was that he wasn't far enough below him in power to let mace overpower him with just force attacks, i understand that.)

So thats what i've been talking about. The speed that mace shows against vastor should tell you something. Mace is sold short by a lot of people on this forum as having speed ONLY from sidious, but clearly, he had speed at a much higher level (couldn't blink) than vastor, who is greater than mace in the force, and therefore, greater than kas'im.


Finally, mace TK's Vastor when he takes him out with a shield from behind(second force attack).

Originally posted by truejedi
He outclasses Kas'im.No he doesn't.

Completely blocking a telekinetic assault that brought down a building?

That Mace doesn't outclass Kas'im? Good.

No he doesn't.

Windu's chosen form certainly kicks the shit out of anything Kas'im has in his arsenal.

'Outclasses?' Perhaps not. "Could very well and probably beat?' Quite probably.

Originally posted by Faunus
No he doesn't.

Completely blocking a telekinetic assault that brought down a building?

That Mace doesn't outclass Kas'im? Good.

No he doesn't.

It says in POD, that even the lowest sith apprentices are taught to block TK attacks. Obviously Kas'im did not completely block the assault, or he wouldn't have died. had the attack been completely "blocked" as you put it. The building WOULD NOT HAVE COLLAPSED. Come on Faunus, this is simply physics, its not hard.

If Kas'im had blocked the ENTIRE force of the TK assault, there would have been no force to strike the building.

Therefore, Kas'im ONLY blocked the part of the attack that was aimed directly at him; which, considering that the rest of it STILL collapsed a temple that Darth Revan couldn't even BREAK INTO (and he couldn't. we can discuss that seperately if you want to) means not very much of that force was going to actually come directly at Kas'im.

besides: blocked a TK attack? that is your list of Kas'im's feats? honestly... I'm not even going into mace's feats. You know them. They outclass Kas'im.

Mace outclasses Kas'im.

Originally posted by truejedi
It says in POD, that even the lowest sith apprentices are taught to block TK attacks. Obviously Kas'im did not completely block the assault, or he wouldn't have died. had the attack been completely "blocked" as you put it. The building WOULD NOT HAVE COLLAPSED. Come on Faunus, this is simply physics, its not hard.

If Kas'im had blocked the ENTIRE force of the TK assault, there would have been no force to strike the building.

That's a weak argument. Kas'im blocked the attack that was directed at him. Defense within Lightsaber duels rarely extends to minimizing collateral damage. I'd like you to find one example of a Force attack that was completely nullified by the course of One individual's defense. Yoda reflected Dooku's lightning, and every other instance of a Force attack in the Movies was aimed at an individual. In cases with collateral damage possible, there has never been the capacity to nullify all of the effects of a Force attack.
Originally posted by truejedi

Therefore, Kas'im ONLY blocked the part of the attack that was aimed directly at him; which, considering that the rest of it STILL collapsed a temple that Darth Revan couldn't even BREAK INTO (and he couldn't. we can discuss that seperately if you want to) means not very much of that force was going to actually come directly at Kas'im.
By the nature of Force defenses, the rest of the temple wouldn't have been shielded. Kas'im had no motivation to extend his Force Shield past the area needed to protect his body, so he did not. Simple as that. He didn't try to totally negate Bane's attack.
Originally posted by truejedi

besides: blocked a TK attack? that is your list of Kas'im's feats? honestly... I'm not even going into mace's feats. You know them. They outclass Kas'im.
Blocking a TK attack from possibly the most accomplished TK'er in the mythos is nothing to scoff at. Bane has some of the most powerful showings of TK ever.
Originally posted by truejedi

Mace outclasses Kas'im.
No, he doesn't.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


That's a weak argument. Kas'im blocked the attack that was directed at him. Defense within Lightsaber duels rarely extends to minimizing collateral damage. I'd like you to find one example of a Force attack that was completely nullified by the course of One individual's defense. Yoda reflected Dooku's lightning, and every other instance of a Force attack in the Movies was aimed at an individual. In cases with collateral damage possible, there has never been the capacity to nullify all of the effects of a Force attack.

By the nature of Force defenses, the rest of the temple wouldn't have been shielded. Kas'im had no motivation to extend his Force Shield past the area needed to protect his body, so he did not. Simple as that. He didn't try to totally negate Bane's attack.




i won't lie, i'm not totally sure what you are asking for here, lost me in the phrasing or something. If you could make that more clear, i might give you a better answer.

Obi-wan completely nullified Vader's TK attack, i didn't see the room around them exploding or what-not.
Luke completly tanked Raynar Thul's Force shove in DN.


I think you misunderstand my point or something. You give me one example, beside's Kas'im, where the surroundings get destroyed by a TK force attack aimed at a specific force user. As is the nature of all attacks, spread out over a greater distance, the attack weakens. No, Kas'im had no motivation to block the rest of the attack (well, i take that back, in hindset, i bet he did) but it certainly doesn't prove that he had the ability to do so.


As i said, i'm not sure exactly what kind of example you were asking for, so i just swung a big stick in the general direction.




still, blocking a TK attack is now proof of greater force use than EVERYTHING Mace accomplished? Please. I mean, Red, listen to yourself, you left reason behind several posts back. In fact, the very PREMISE of this thread is far from what we consider to be the obvious, that i half believe you are trying to win a thread simply for the sake of winning. Which is a pain, because we've discussed Mace's relative strength SO MANY TIMES. That's why i'm not going into a discussion of Windu's force accomplishments, you know them as well as i do, we would just have the old arguments.

Bane's relative TK showings are impressive, BUT NOT as impressive as many others. Vader, Luke, Yoda, Starkiller, just to name a few names that popped into my head at the very first moment.
Kas'im blocking what was PART of that attack gives him very little prestige. Besides, this is POD bane, not ROT. Do keep that in mind.

Unless you misunderstood, this is MACE WINDU we are talking about here. Not sure if i typoed it the first time. Its not kit fisto, its not AOTC kenobi. Its Mace freaking Windu.






Mace outclasses Kas'im with the force.

Originally posted by truejedi
i won't lie, i'm not totally sure what you are asking for here, lost me in the phrasing or something. If you could make that more clear, i might give you a better answer.

Obi-wan completely nullified Vader's TK attack, i didn't see the room around them exploding or what-not.
Luke completly tanked Raynar Thul's Force shove in DN.


I think you misunderstand my point or something. You give me one example, beside's Kas'im, where the surroundings get destroyed by a TK force attack aimed at a specific force user. As is the nature of all attacks, spread out over a greater distance, the attack weakens. No, Kas'im had no motivation to block the rest of the attack (well, i take that back, in hindset, i bet he did) but it certainly doesn't prove that he had the ability to do so.


As i said, i'm not sure exactly what kind of example you were asking for, so i just swung a big stick in the general direction.

I'll admit, I wasn't very clear there. I meant that when a Force attack has an Area of Effect (AoE), it is rarely blocked completely. The target may be able to nullify its effects to them, but it usually effects the area around them. If Luke prevented Raynar Thul's attack from hitting anything else, I'll drop it.

Originally posted by truejedi

still, blocking a TK attack is now proof of greater force use than EVERYTHING Mace accomplished? Please. I mean, Red, listen to yourself, you left reason behind several posts back.
Strawman. I didn't say that it showed greater force use, I said it was impressive. I don't believe I've said 'Kas'im > Windu'. I've been arguing that Mace is not sufficiently overpowered to win it with an exertion of the Force.


Originally posted by truejedi

In fact, the very PREMISE of this thread is far from what we consider to be the obvious,
I'm sorry, why is it 'far from obvious'? Kas'im is amazingly skilled. He was the best of his era. He mastered all of the forms. He isn't out of his league.
Originally posted by truejedi

that i half believe you are trying to win a thread simply for the sake of winning. Which is a pain, because we've discussed Mace's relative strength SO MANY TIMES. That's why i'm not going into a discussion of Windu's force accomplishments, you know them as well as i do, we would just have the old arguments.
I know Mace's relative power. I'd like to know Kas'im's. He is a beast, and I'd like to compare him to the greats. I think it would be a favorable comparison. Mace's Force accomplishments aren't really the issue here. We need to discern whether Kas'im's ability to defend against Bane's TK makes him able to defend against Mace's. Also, we need to decide if Mace's technical skill is > or < Kas'im's. I believe I've made my position clear on this point. If I need to further substantiate my arguments, I'll regroup my sources and post a final analysis.
Originally posted by truejedi

Bane's relative TK showings are impressive, BUT NOT as impressive as many others. Vader, Luke, Yoda, Starkiller, just to name a few names that popped into my head at the very first moment.
Kas'im blocking what was PART of that attack gives him very little prestige. Besides, this is POD bane, not ROT. Do keep that in mind.
POD Bane still has many impressive force feats. His showings, especially when taking his young age into account, are incredibly impressive- his insta-mastery of Force Lightning illustrates his power and control of the Force, which naturally increases his power.

Originally posted by truejedi

Unless you misunderstood, this is MACE WINDU we are talking about here. Not sure if i typoed it the first time. Its not kit fisto, its not AOTC kenobi. Its Mace freaking Windu.

You realize that I made the thread?

I'm hardly likely to forget the combatants. If this is an attempt to hype Mace, as you've already said- we know his relative power.


Not sufficiently to cinch a win.
Put it this way:

Sidious was X times greater in the force than the trio that he killed. This is the amount needed for a Force Win during an all out fight.

Mace is less than X times greater in the Force than Kas'im. He is not better *enough*.




I'll post a final statement with a synthesis of my stance in about an hour- I've gotta eat lunch.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


That's a weak argument. Kas'im blocked the attack that was directed at him. Defense within Lightsaber duels rarely extends to minimizing collateral damage. I'd like you to find one example of a Force attack that was completely nullified by the course of One individual's defense. Yoda reflected Dooku's lightning, and every other instance of a Force attack in the Movies was aimed at an individual. In cases with collateral damage possible, there has never been the capacity to nullify all of the effects of a Force attack.

By the nature of Force defenses, the rest of the temple wouldn't have been shielded. Kas'im had no motivation to extend his Force Shield past the area needed to protect his body, so he did not. Simple as that. He didn't try to totally negate Bane's attack.

Blocking a TK attack from possibly the most accomplished TK'er in the mythos is nothing to scoff at. Bane has some of the most powerful showings of TK ever.

No, he doesn't.

Well, Red, let's be fair here: This isn't Bane at the top of his game. He was hurt, drained and lashing out with a very unfocused attack.

Hell, don't forget, in Rule of Two, an UMBARAN SHADOW GUARD is able to block a force wave from Bane.

It does make sense a desperate throw of power from Bane wasn't really the most difficult thing to block

i've been waiting to reply till i get my hands on Dark nest again (maybe this weekend, ) but i can't resist contradicting one itty bitty point before i get back to it (and i will, but it may take awhile, this weekend is going to be crazy. 2 exams and 2 projects due by next wednesday....)

but the point i wanted to contradict:



I disagree with this statement very very strongly. Force crushing the armor of grievous is more important than a strike strong enough to crush (and like it or not, crush and pulverize and liquify are essentially the same thing applied to two different elements, titanium or w/e grievous is made out of, and flesh and blood, respectively)
is more impressive than BLOCKING an attack that SOMEONE ELSE used that would destroy flesh. If it were an EQUAL amount of impressive, someone wandering around a battle zone would inflict as much damage on a tank as the tank would on the person if they collided.

That is all for now, sorry i'm being so slow about this one. I just want to make sure my source is correct on the Luke thing.
(tho it still seems to me that, since every instance we see of a force shove, the background doesn't seem to absorb ANY of it, that the burden of proof would actually be on you to show that Bane's attack was the rule other than the exception...)

I think you have missed the point of my argument completely. I have never believed that Kas'im is stronger than Mace in the force. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

Kas'im is strong enough to block a blast capable of shattering the temple around him. I don't think that Mace could outdo Bane in TK. The fight hinges on the fact that Mace < PoD Bane. Bane was unable to breech Kas'im's defenses, and Mace will be as well. The important thing is not who is stronger, (That's obviously Mace) but whether Mace could use his superiority to his advantage.

Mace is good with the force. That's not in question. What is in question is if he is good enough to use it competently in this battle- Kas'im has survived a Force attack from Mace's better- there's no reason to believe that Mace's Force superiority will win him this battle.



This is a terrible sentence- I wish I had re-read more carefully. Ignore it. My argument is as follows:

"Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force." (Pod)

This is the position I have taken- The above self-quote does not really explain what I meant- which was that Kas'im's power would be enough to defend against Mace. All in all, that was a terrible case of communication. This is why I'm so uptight about grammar- It is actually a channel for me to ensure that my points come out as I had meant. Obviously in this case it didn't work.




Edit: Works -> Work
(Ironically, I misspelled a word- changing its tense- in the same sentence where I bemoaned a mistake in grammar.)

lol, well, then i guess we can skip straight to the chase. I agree with you on everything you just posted, up until a certain point. That point is this: Yes, Mace indeed is not as strong IN THE FORCE as bane. That's fine. I agree that in a duel, mace wouldn't be reaching out and tossing kas'im around like a ragdoll or anything. It would come down to lightsabers.

My argument is this: In POD, there is a quote, BY KAS'IM where he admits that if someone is too strong in the force, all of his superior lightsaber skills won't be enough to help him win. A lightsaber duelist is limited by his ability to use the force. SO my assertation is: Mace is stronger in the force TO THE POINT where it gives him an advantage in lightsaber combat that Kas'im would not be able to overcome. Be it speed, be it precog, be it strength, stamina, what have you.

If you intepreted that POD passage to mean that Kas'im couldn't be helped against a crushing force attack (such as bane's) then yeah, i can see why we aren't agreeing here. But, i'm going with the fact that Windu is superior to the point that Kas'im could not overcome the difference with his lightsaber skills (which, if both were completely stripped of the force would indeed be greater than Mace's)

So in the end it comes down to whether or not Mace can buff himself with the Force to a place that Kas'im can't overcome. I'd say that it is a reasonable position- considering that Vaapad is designed specifically for that very purpose, but I can't agree. At the time of their duel, Bane, who was also buffing himself far more effectively than Kas'im, was simply outclassed. Kas'im's technical ability overcame Bane's Force Valor. I think that He could do the same to Mace.

You don't.


I think that we have passed the point where facts can effectively be applied- this is completely subjective. If anyone can make a point for/against this, feel encouraged. I think I've reached the end of this argument.

well done. lol, did we just have a discussion end without anyone yelling at each other, or calling names. amazing. i didn't think it was possible.

Originally posted by truejedi
well done. lol, did we just have a discussion end without anyone yelling at each other, or calling names. amazing. i didn't think it was possible.

I know. So, I guess we agree to disagree? This is weird. What's the protocol for the end of a debate?

You make good points. I kinda feel like we missed out on part of the experience though- I still haven't been in a flame war. Am I missing much?

Mace Windu wins. Pretty easily. End of thread. Done.

gosh skywalker, don't know what we would have done without you. All this time wasted. I just wish you had come along earlier. Red, be sure to send him a PM to invite to any thread we feel needs discussing in the future, k?

I get it. He's so much smarter than us that his one sentence and two sentence fragments include our whole debate, pared down to the essentials.

Think of the time we could save!!! He's almost as great a force for efficiency as BOOG- who only surpasses him because of his innate 'hoodness'- Power in 'hoodness' can surpass even the most efficient thread killer!

are we successfully starting a flame war, or what?

Don't forget, Red...we also have to remember Bane's state when he threw out his attack and assume that Kas'im's technical ability is SO far above Mace's all Mace has is the force.

Mace's force wont stand a chance against kas'im's technical ability in my opinion

Originally posted by truejedi
are we successfully starting a flame war, or what?

I think Skywalker has to respond in order to make it a flame war. Otherwise, we are just flaming him- it isn't a war yet. Look- Skywalker is flaming.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Don't forget, Red...we also have to remember Bane's state when he threw out his attack and assume that Kas'im's technical ability is SO far above Mace's all Mace has is the force.

With all due respect, did you read anything that has happened in this thread?

Kas'im is more skilled, technically with the lightsaber. Mace has amazing force buff abilities. It comes down to whether Kas'im's skill > Mace's Force valor. I think it is. Feel free to refute some of my earlier points, but if I've already made my argument. If you bring some new information or a new interpretation I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you.

In all honesty, I'm not sure what the intent of this post was- what specifically, was it that you hoped to prove?





Originally posted by adventbleach111
Mace's force wont stand a chance against kas'im's technical ability in my opinion

If posts like this keep coming, I might be able to end this debate with an appeal to the majority!

yeah, the TRUE question is Anoon Bondara vs. Kas'im. Then you have your best warrior. Screw the chosen one. Bondara could rule the galaxy if he had the want-to.

Originally posted by truejedi
yeah, the TRUE question is Anoon Bondara vs. Kas'im. Then you have your best warrior. Screw the chosen one. Bondara could rule the galaxy if he had the want-to.

WTF? I don't get it.

I freaked out at LS because my first instinct was to debate that point, but then I realized that's what he wanted- for me to argue before I knew what his position was. That trap shouldn't work on me anymore. (Gideon...!!!)

i was laughing at adventbleach1111 for referencing the technical ability of Kas'im, and was pointing out Bondara's supposedly being the orders most technically skilled fighter did him a fat lot of good.

Sarcasm, but not my best.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I think Skywalker has to respond in order to make it a flame war. Otherwise, we are just flaming him- it isn't a war yet. Look- Skywalker is flaming.



With all due respect, did you read anything that has happened in this thread?

Kas'im is more skilled, technically with the lightsaber. Mace has amazing force buff abilities. It comes down to whether Kas'im's skill > Mace's Force valor. I think it is. Feel free to refute some of my earlier points, but if I've already made my argument. If you bring some new information or a new interpretation I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you.

In all honesty, I'm not sure what the intent of this post was- what specifically, was it that you hoped to prove?
You're kind of basing this on the idea that Kas'im's actual skill>Mace's is my issue. Speed and strength-wise? Mace has demonstrated more than Kas'im. Mace is familiar with any of Kas'im's styles and Mace has his own trump in Vaapad which has its own technical points. In other words, in absolute skill with a saber? Mace might very well be close enough to Kas'im to make him fight for his life. That's it

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mace might very well be close enough to Kas'im to make him fight for his life. That's it He already conceded that would be the case. He was arguing that Kas'im wouldn't be "outclassed" by Mace, and made several very strong arguments in the process.

And question; if I delete the PM notices that come through my e-mail before reading the PMs, do the actual PMs in my KMC mailbox get deleted?

Sorry, it seemed my impression from reading RN's posts he was arguing Kas'im would be able to beat Mace.

And...no idea on the latter part.

Originally posted by Faunus
And question; if I delete the PM notices that come through my e-mail before reading the PMs, do the actual PMs in my KMC mailbox get deleted?

Do you mean if you turn off the email notification when you get the PM, then no it doesn't get deleted.

I'm probably late as hell posting this, but I'd reckon that Kas'im can probably cancel out Mace's advantages in apure force fight. Think about it for a second- he summoned force shields of enough potency to shield himself completely from the effects of a massively powerful force wave utilized by an enraged, desperate Sith with raw power and dark side mastery that likely sutpasses Windu's own. Mace Windu's force attacks operate in the same way- overpowering, damaging TK like used in the Battle of Dantooine and the force crush used against Grievous.

Other than that, I'd say Mace Windu takes the lightsaber duel. It was proven many, many times that force prowess > extensive skill- Kas'im most definetly has the advantage in the 'skill category', due to his vast mastery of virtually every lightsaber form at his time. On the other hand, Mace Windu's creation of Vaapad- which requires mastery of multiple forms and the 'upgrading' of an already existing, extremely difficult to master lightsaber form- proves that he is no slouch in the skill category. He is also a far more specialized and deadly fighter than Kas'im is- faster, more intense, physically stronger. Shatterpoint and Vaapad will also, of course, come into play- they will negate any physical advantage Kas'im has, and will make sure that unless Kas'im can quickly dispatch Mace (he can't), Mace will find a flaw in Kas'im's bladework.

So, all in all, I'd say Mace wins.

I've already done this argument, but one statement is categorically false:



Shatterpoint is irrelevant- it has no bearing on physical ability, so I can only assume you are talking about Vaapad, and the ever popular 'superconducting loop' argument. This does not equalize physical disparity, it equalizes Force use. When Mace fought Grievous, he didn't magically get 20 strikes/second, because it was a physical exertion.