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1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out


1. No offensive Force powers
2. Combatants do not have lightsaber and are forbidden to brawl
3. A real fight

eh, Qui-Gon. YOu talked me into Kas'im > Mace in the middle of the night the other day. I don't really know what i was thinking. I want to take that one back, because IMO, it gives Bane WAY too much credit. My biggest anti-bane argument has been Kas'im can't be proven too be at the top....


In fact. NOw that i'm writing this: i DO take it back. mace beat the most powerful sith lord of all time. In one-on-one even combat... Kasi'm was MAYBE according to BANE the greatest duelist in that era, but obviously not so, because Bane was stronger than he. And Sidious > Bane. And mace beat sidious. So bull-crap. what was i thinking? I'm going back to post this here...
but in the meantime... using that logic

Qui-Gonn CURBSTOMPS Sarro.

Sarro is very physically fit, and Qui-Gon was unable to contend with Darth Maul in the short battle on Tatooine, during which he was only using one saber. I'd give this to Sarro, if only because Qui-Gon has been proven unable to contend with the physical demands of a double bladed practitioner.

As for your point about Kas'im and Mace etc. That's very nice, but we are talking about two very different combatants- ABC won't work here.

but also talking about 2 different time periods, in which, by ALL canon sources, the PT time period is the strongest in history for Jedi and Sith.

Sarro wasn't even a master. Qui-Gonn could have sat on the council if better behaved. Sarro is killed by zannah for being stupid. (looking away from his fight to look at another one) Qui Gonn is killed by maul, one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history. We have no such quotes defining Zannah's place in history. In fact, we still have no evidence (though we might get some ) that she even held the title of DLOTS.

For my main argument here, (both threads) larger than the ABC (though it does work very darn well in the mace case, whether you will accept it or not)

is that PT > ROT Era. Thats canon. Now we have top combatants from each era meeting, so it stands to reason that the PT characters would come out on top. Especially in the case of Windu Kas'im.

Originally posted by truejedi
but also talking about 2 different time periods, in which, by ALL canon sources, the PT time period is the strongest in history for Jedi and Sith. Yes, but that does not mean that every single PT character is better than the ancients- I took it to mean that the average Jedi is better, and that the Truly Exceptional (the top tiers) were from this time period. That does not preclude exceptional combatants from the past.

Originally posted by truejedi

Sarro wasn't even a master. Qui-Gonn could have sat on the council if better behaved. Sarro is killed by zannah for being stupid. (looking away from his fight to look at another one) Qui Gonn is killed by maul, one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history. We have no such quotes defining Zannah's place in history. In fact, we still have no evidence (though we might get some ) that she even held the title of DLOTS.
Zannah was gifted at sorcerry. There is absolutely no argument to be made that she beat him with sabers. Qui-Gon does not tend to use Sith Alchemy, so I don't think that his defeat at Zannah's hands will be a factor here. Also, isn't she DLOTS because later Darth Tyrranus would give her saber to Grievous?

Originally posted by truejedi

For my main argument here, (both threads) larger than the ABC (though it does work very darn well in the mace case, whether you will accept it or not) is that PT > ROT Era. Thats canon. Now we have top combatants from each era meeting, so it stands to reason that the PT characters would come out on top. Especially in the case of Windu Kas'im. I'm not sure why it would be applicable 'especially in the case of Windu/Kas'im'. Kas'im isn't just a weaker version of Sidious, so it isn't a direct comparison, nor is it a comparison between a constant attribute (like physical strength or speed). ABC works only when Comparing apples and apples. Kas'im is like an orange.

Ok, lets look at it like math. (I did this once already, I'm not doing it a third time)
Bane > Ruusan era
Mace/Sidious > PT era
PT > Ruusan era
So:
Mace/Sidious > PT > Ruusan era
Bane is the odd one out- there can be no comparrison between Bane and Mace/Sidious using the quotes that you've given (mathematically- using rudimentary geometry logic)

Here's a different take:
The top combatants of the PT era include Obi-Wan. Obi Wan is no where near Bane's level. He is not catapulted up to his level just because the PT Jedi Order is > Ruusan Jedi Order. This is why I take it to mean general strength.

Qui-Gon takes all three categories comfortably. The only reason Sarro was any threat to even Zannah in sabers was because he was amped by BM and wasn't growing tired - which was what Zannah's style was designed for.

but you forgot a simple fact in your logic. Sidious > Bane So if sidious is equiv. To Mace (according to your theorom, then the top of your tier would have to include these:

Sidious/Mace>Bane>Kasi'm
also: Bane>Kas'im>Russun Era (your quote)
so it would look something like this

Sidious/Mace>
Bane>Kas'im>Ruusan Period
PT
or

Sidious/Mace>
Bane>Kas'im>Ruusan Period
PT
or

Sidious/Mace>
Bane>Kas'im>PT>Ruusan Period.


In each of these, Mace still kills Kas'im with a degree to spare. Where exactly the PT ends up is insignificant.

Mace is still > Kas'im.

I think it's downright stupid that the PT era should be called the most powerful era in Jedi history. Most Jedi were using Form VI, Niman, for God's sakes. And hundreds of them were killed by an effing Jedi-wannabe cyborg who doesn't using the Force. Prior to that, they were being killed with bare hands by Jango Fett, a human bounty hunter.

Bleh.

I thought the pt jedi were called the "prime" of the jedi in regards to lightsaber combat. Oh and Enyalus you can't forget that Jango Fett is a mandalorian.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I thought the pt jedi were called the "prime" of the jedi in regards to lightsaber combat. Oh and Enyalus you can't forget that Jango Fett is a mandalorian.

Most of them learned Niman, and only Niman. That's an order of 10,000 strong basically running around knowing 'The Diplomat's Form'...come on. Logically, they can't be the prime of the Jedi in regard to lightsaber combat.

And Jango Fett is human. He was adopted by Mandalorians, but he's human.

Any form, mastered to a sufficient level is better than any other form by a greatly outclassed fighter En, that should be obvious. The form they used really doesn't even enter the discussion on how proficient they were.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Most of them learned Niman, and only Niman. That's an order of 10,000 strong basically running around knowing 'The Diplomat's Form'...come on. Logically, they can't be the prime of the Jedi in regard to lightsaber combat.
Meh I have no thoughts on the matter


But,once you become a mandalorian you magically become a superhuman that is the" jedi's greatest threat" or something like that.

more than the sith, its true, mandalore> sidious. (and don't get banned by the moose guy if you disagree!)

Originally posted by truejedi
Any form, mastered to a sufficient level is better than any other form by a greatly outclassed fighter En, that should be obvious. The form they used really doesn't even enter the discussion on how proficient they were.

Yes, but since when did every Jedi Knight in the PT era became a master of whatever particular form they practiced?

since when did they not? i don't think there were a bunch of noobs running around. I assumed every jedi, and sith too for that matter pretty much mastered their form...

I would assume before they were knighted, and definitly before they were made masters.

Mastering a lightsaber form would be pretty much part of the learning process.

Originally posted by truejedi
since when did they not? i don't think there were a bunch of noobs running around. I assumed every jedi, and sith too for that matter pretty much mastered their form...

I would assume before they were knighted, and definitly before they were made masters.

Mastering a lightsaber form would be pretty much part of the learning process.

Most Jedi probably aren't as combat oriented as Mace Windu, Anakin, Dooku, Obi-wan etc. Those are the people that stand out above the rest. The average Jedi is probably going to spend some time training yes, otherwise he's probably going to be on missions, brokering diplomacy and maybe dealing with criminals. Either that or he will be studying Taoism Jedi dogma.

i still believe mastering the Jedi's weapon (which was an extension of themselves) was a required bit of their jedi training (other than Johun... but then again, he sucked so bad his lightsaber trainer probably passed him out of pity)

Originally posted by truejedi
more than the sith, its true, mandalore> sidious. (and don't get banned by the moose guy if you disagree!)

Watch it, TJ. You're borderline trolling.

it was a joke Crimzon.

if qui gon is in his prime then he wins.

Originally posted by truejedi
it was a joke Crimzon.

Reported. Your trolling is too much.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Most of them learned Niman, and only Niman. That's an order of 10,000 strong basically running around knowing 'The Diplomat's Form'...come on. Logically, they can't be the prime of the Jedi in regard to lightsaber combat.

And Jango Fett is human. He was adopted by Mandalorians, but he's human.

He was a stronger and more skilled fighter than most Mandalorians. Dooku even acknowledged this.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Reported. Your trolling is too much.



obviously

1. Saro
2. I have no idea, Rot did not tell us Saro's force abilities
3. Saro.

You base this on what, Skywalker?

While Sarro is a damned fine duelist-he was able to take Zannah and BM or no BM, he's just plain better than her- but Qui-Gon was considered one of the finest of his day

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You base this on what, Skywalker?




Sarro's showings- excluding exposition- > Qui-Gon
Originally posted by Lightsnake

While Sarro is a damned fine duelist-he was able to take Zannah and BM or no BM, he's just plain better than her- but Qui-Gon was considered one of the finest of his day

Sarro is also 'considered one of the finest of his day'. He was an apprentice to a Weapons Master, and was well on his way to attaining that rank. Sarro was also in better physical condition than Qui-Gon, and I'd be willing to say better condition than Darth Maul. Qui-Gon struggles in extended, strenuous duels. Sarro may be able to wear him down.

this thread doesn't say TPM Qui-Gon red. If it did, that would make a difference, but when they are not assigned a designation, we assume, in their prime.

We have no feats of 'Qui-Gon in his prime'. We know that he's better, but by how much?

I've not read the TPM novel, so if you can quantify it feel free.

Sarro was better than Zannah. It might have been from the force boost from that one master (can't remember his name), but he still was taller and more muscular than Bane, and was beating Zannah.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
We have no feats of 'Qui-Gon in his prime'. We know that he's better, but by how much?

I've not read the TPM novel, so if you can quantify it feel free.

Just to clarify, I meant that Qui-Gon from before TPM was better than his movie incarnation. I still think that Sarro takes this.