The the LT one shot the IG?

Mr Master

Originally posted by Stoic

I thought Warlock allowed the LT to destroy the cohesion of the Infinity Gems.
As far as what I read Warlock backed down because he didn't want to become like Thanos.
Nah good friend, Warlock was ordered, and Warlock obeyed.

Warlock/IG tried in the beginning to attack the LT,
the Cosmic hierarchy was obliterated,
while the LT with a gesture nullified Warlock's attack.

The proceeding arc (Infinity War) cemented the LT's superiority over the Gems.
(Marvel Handbooks in LT's bio confirms this to be a fact)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/878627_ltbio6iyag7.jpg
Originally posted by Stoic

LT never defeated Warlock with the Gauntlet.

Warlock/IG unleashes his fury, obliterating the hierarchy: (LT is unfazed)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742918_w6jk3.jpg

With a gesture, LT stops the IG attack, and re-creates the hierarchy:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742919_w7xt1.jpg
Originally posted by Stoic

My opinion is no he not only can't one shot a user of the Gauntlet,
but he can not defeat a user either.

Stalemate.
I disagree. (LT would stomp an IG user)

The IG's power/function was literally dependent on the LT's decision.
Originally posted by psycho gundam

the gauntlet grants dominion over the 616 dimension,

the tribunal has authority over all of marvel... under the one above all's will.
The IG grants dominion over all Time & Space in Marvel.

The LT is still > IG
Originally posted by psycho gundam

the lt can negate the ig on a whim, but only if it deems it necessary,
however if warlock tried to fight his ruling
the lt would have mopped the 616 dimension with his face.
Correct.
Originally posted by psycho gundam

the tribunal deemed the infinity crisis as a natural phenomenon where supreme beings die and get replaced, just like whole galaxies die and new ones grow from the remains.
Right.

quanchi112

Originally posted by psycho gundam
your right, easy is not the right word...... it would be instantaneous. Really? Where is your proof? It would have laid waste to reality....if he can oneshot him as easily as you speculate that he can then how can they lay waste to reality? Im waiting.

Mr Master

Originally posted by quanchi112

It would have laid waste to reality....if he can oneshot him as easily as you speculate that he can then how can they lay waste to reality? Im waiting.
Imo, because the overwhelming power of the LT blasting trans-infinity (IG)
would have consequences on reality which surrounds them.

As for "one-shotting" ...
I think we'll agree it wouldn't take more for LT to break Marvel in half.

In any case, in the Infinity War arc,
we learned that the IG's power depends on whether the LT allows it to function or not.

That's absolute power over the IG good friend.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Mr Master
Imo, because the overwhelming power of the LT blasting trans-infinity (IG)
would have consequences on reality which surrounds them.

As for "one-shotting" ...
I think we'll agree it wouldn't take more for LT to break Marvel in half.

In any case, in the Infinity War arc,
we learned that the IG's power depends on whether the LT allows it to function or not.

That's absolute power over the IG good friend. Lt is more powerful,but he isnt oneshotting him. Think about it. If it were that easy why couldnt Lt just rule over the gems while they were in warlock's possession? He did it after Warlock willingly surrendered them. Lt is more powerful than warlock but he isnt oneshotting them. Dont you agree?

psycho gundam

if the gems stop working in unison, the fight thus becomes the living tribunal vs adam warlock. power wise... it's a stomp of epic proportions.

quanchi112

Originally posted by psycho gundam
if the gems stop working in unison, the fight thus becomes the living tribunal vs adam warlock. power wise... it's a stomp of epic proportions. Lt is above them,but nowhere near as much as you are speculating. The gems only quit working in unison AFTER Warlock surrendered them.

Mr Master

Originally posted by quanchi112

Lt is more powerful,but he isnt oneshotting him. Think about it. If it were that easy why couldnt Lt just rule over the gems while they were in warlock's possession? He did it after Warlock willingly surrendered them.
That's true, but like I said before good friend,
the next arc (Infinity War) '
depicted the LT as the one that literally powers up the IG with a phrase.

Basically, if LT says, the Gems may work in unison, the IG becomes functional,
if LT says, the IG may not work in unison, the IG loses the ability to function.

I agree, during the Warlock confrontation, this fact was not evident,
but during Infinity War, it became the canon updated Marvel fact,
and that fact is ... LT > IG, by leaps and bounds.

I will submit, ONLY if the LT's faces agree, can LT affect the IG.
Originally posted by quanchi112

Lt is more powerful than warlock but he isnt oneshotting them. Dont you agree?
Taking Warlock & the infinity Watch #1 into consideration?

I agree.

Taking Infinity War into consideration?

I disagree.

Galan007

IG > LT.

do the math. uhuh

Knowsbleed33

That math does not compute.

fascistcrusader

All I'm getting is Syntax Error.

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's true, but like I said before good friend,
the next arc (Infinity War) '
depicted the LT as the one that literally powers up the IG with a phrase.

Basically, if LT says, the Gems may work in unison, the IG becomes functional,
if LT says, the IG may not work in unison, the IG loses the ability to function.

I agree, during the Warlock confrontation, this fact was not evident,
but during Infinity War, it became the canon updated Marvel fact,
and that fact is ... LT > IG, by leaps and bounds.

I will submit, ONLY if the LT's faces agree, can LT affect the IG.

Taking Warlock & the infinity Watch #1 into consideration?

I agree.

Taking Infinity War into consideration?

I disagree.

The LT didn't depower the gems. They still worked fine on their own. He just prevented them from working together after they were separated. If the LT had absolute control over the IG after it was combined, he could have simply shut it down without having to destroy reality.

Enyalus

Erm, if the LT doesn't make the gauntlet not work together, then the LT isn't one-shotting an IG wielder. The Power Gem makes one physically invulnerable.

Philosophía

Yes.

And easily, imo.

Hewhoknowsall

But didn't the LT say something like he would have to destroy the entire omniverse to wrest the IG from Adam Warlock?

KuRuPT Thanosi

Exaclty the LT even said it wouldn't be easy but he would eventually win. I think that about says it right there.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's true, but like I said before good friend,
the next arc (Infinity War) '
depicted the LT as the one that literally powers up the IG with a phrase.

Basically, if LT says, the Gems may work in unison, the IG becomes functional,
if LT says, the IG may not work in unison, the IG loses the ability to function.

I agree, during the Warlock confrontation, this fact was not evident,
but during Infinity War, it became the canon updated Marvel fact,
and that fact is ... LT > IG, by leaps and bounds.

I will submit, ONLY if the LT's faces agree, can LT affect the IG.

Taking Warlock & the infinity Watch #1 into consideration?

I agree.

Taking Infinity War into consideration?

I disagree. Still disagree. If it were so easy then like I said he wouldnt have needed Warlock to hand them over.
Originally posted by celestialdemon
The LT didn't depower the gems. They still worked fine on their own. He just prevented them from working together after they were separated. If the LT had absolute control over the IG after it was combined, he could have simply shut it down without having to destroy reality. Agree,although I do think the Lt would defeat an ig user just not easily.

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
But didn't the LT say something like he would have to destroy the entire omniverse to wrest the IG from Adam Warlock?

Not the omniverse. His exact words were "lay waste to this reality." I think he was just talking about 616.

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

The LT didn't depower the gems. They still worked fine on their own.
He just prevented them from working together after they were separated.
Again, that was in Infinity War. (which was published AFTER Warlock & the Infinity Watch)

The Gems worked fine on their own, but the IG was completely in-affective.

Why?

Cause the LT said so. (absolute control)

Then the IG in Infinity War was became affective.

Why?

Cause the LT said so. (absolute control)
Originally posted by celestialdemon

If the LT had absolute control over the IG after it was combined,

he could have simply shut it down without having to destroy reality.
Yall are still focusing on the prior arc,
let's stick to the arc that proceeds Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1,
which is the Infinity War arc.

Starlin made it quite clear,
that the IG's function depends on the LT's allowance.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882401_1.jpg

"His (LT) judgement is obviously keeping the GEMS from working together"

This isn't control over the IG?

....................................................................................

Since it was Eternity who convinced the Tribunal to rule against the IG,
only Eternity now can make the Living Tribunal change his ruling.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882402_2.jpg

Eternity agrees, realizing the impending danger and faints:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882403_3.jpg

A single phrase uttered by LT actually POWERS UP the Infinity Gauntlet.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882404_4.jpg

The result in an instant:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882405_5.jpg

....................................................................................

Sincerely friends, I don't see how yall don't see this.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Enyalus

Erm, if the LT doesn't make the gauntlet not work together,
then the LT isn't one-shotting an IG wielder.
During Infinity War we learned that it's the LT that makes the IG significant.

LT curbstomps any IG wielder,
meh, not to mention the official Marvel Handbook makes it clear,
the LT's power is superior to the IG:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/878627_ltbio6iyag7.jpg

Originally posted by Enyalus

The Power Gem makes one physically invulnerable.
Until that infinite invulnerability is surpassed by a greater infinity, like the LT's.

LT on panel demonstrated his superior power over the IG:

Warlock/IG unleashes his fury, obliterating the hierarchy: (LT is unfazed)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742918_w6jk3.jpg

With a gesture, LT stops the IG attack, and re-creates the hierarchy:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742919_w7xt1.jpg

At the end of this issue (Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1)
the LT states,
a confrontation with the IG would lay waste to this reality (Dimension of Manifestations)

LT should know, but exactly what does that mean though?

In one move LT or the IG can wipe out reality,
so imo, even if LT performed a "one-shot" on the IG, it could still devastate reality.

My point is, we don't know how much it would take for LT to stomp the IG,
we know that would be the end result though,
but we also know, it can just as easily take one move, as in, one shot.

Knowsbleed33

Originally posted by Enyalus
Erm, if the LT doesn't make the gauntlet not work together, then the LT isn't one-shotting an IG wielder. The Power Gem makes one physically invulnerable.

What good is the IG going to be for this IG wielder if the glove no longer works?

Enyalus

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
What good is the IG going to be for this IG wielder if the glove no longer works?

You just quoted me, so I know you read it...'if the LT doesn't make the gauntlet not work together...'

I know it's phrased oddly, but really...

Knowsbleed33

No, that's the questioning I'm asking. Also, what makes you think he can't one-shot a user if the gems still work in unison? I never got the impression that the LT was "worried" about the IG.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
No, that's the questioning I'm asking. Also, what makes you think he can't one-shot a user if the gems still work in unison? I never got the impression that the LT was "worried" about the IG.

The Power Gem, when used correctly, would be like a super version of Cytorrak's gem. Physical invulnerability, and infinite strength. No one is one-shotting someone who is invulnerable - abstract level or not.

But yeah, if he turns off the gauntlet, it'd be an easy win.

Knowsbleed33

I agree with your assessment on the Power Gem. But do you really think that applies to the LT as well?

Enyalus

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I agree with your assessment on the Power Gem. But do you really think that applies to the LT as well?

Lol, if LT attempts to punch him or throw an energy blast at him? Hell yeah. Matter manipulation or throwing a megaverse at him - probably not.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

I never got the impression that the LT was "worried" about the IG.
thumb up

... Especially when it's the LT himself who makes the IG even significant. smile

The next time the IG came into the picture
was right before the Ultraverse/Avengers arc,
in that series, Rune acquired the IG,
now we later learned that Gems themselves were becoming sentient,
and were messing up Rune's control, making him extremely vulnerable,
but before we knew this, the Silver Surfer told the LT,
I know you can defeat this creature (Rune/IG) easily,
the LT's only response was: "In order for this self to act, my 3 faces must agree."

So the LT acknowledged that as a fact,
but of course,
since the LT follows strict protocol,
he can't act, unless he's meant to. (the 3 face stellar skull agrees)

Knowsbleed33

Originally posted by Enyalus
Lol, if LT attempts to punch him or throw an energy blast at him? Hell yeah. Matter manipulation or throwing a megaverse at him - probably not.

The LT once, literally one-shotted a being who's power was too vast for any 1 universe to contain. I some how doubt the Power Gem would be any kind of problem for him.

But, that's just IMO.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The LT once, literally one-shotted a being who's power was too vast for any 1 universe to contain. I some how doubt the Power Gem would be any kind of problem for him.

But, that's just IMO.

Who're you referring to, so I have reference?

Mr Master

Originally posted by Enyalus

The Power Gem, when used correctly,

Physical invulnerability, and infinite strength.
This means nothing against the LT.

LT's infinity > IG's infinity
Originally posted by Enyalus

No one is one-shotting someone who is invulnerable - abstract level or not.
IG makes one God over space-time.

But the IG only makes you invulnerable to those below it,
the LT is above it, because the LT is the representative of one who is above God!

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7757/ltorderswl0iy.th.jpg

Enyalus

Originally posted by Mr Master
But the IG only makes you invulnerable to those below it,

I didn't really realize that, but it makes sense enough. I'll defer to your interpretation.

Knowsbleed33

Originally posted by Enyalus
Who're you referring to, so I have reference?

Slorioth.

Secret Defenders vol. 1 #24-25 if memory serves. the Vishanti requested the LT deal with him because they couldn't. The LT sent him packing with ease.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Enyalus

I didn't really realize that, but it makes sense enough. I'll defer to your interpretation.
Don't get me wrong though, as far as I know,
so far for the past and the present, only the LT has proven to be above the IG.

This is why I always say:

The IG makes one God (Supreme) beneath the LT.

IG is bad, bad ass.

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, that was in Infinity War. (which was published AFTER Warlock & the Infinity Watch)

The Gems worked fine on their own, but the IG was completely in-affective.

Why?

Cause the LT said so. (absolute control)

Then the IG in Infinity War was became affective.

Why?

Cause the LT said so. (absolute control)

Yall are still focusing on the prior arc,
let's stick to the arc that proceeds Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1,
which is the Infinity War arc.

Starlin made it quite clear,
that the IG's function depends on the LT's allowance.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882401_1.jpg

"His (LT) judgement is obviously keeping the GEMS from working together"

This isn't control over the IG?

....................................................................................

Since it was Eternity who convinced the Tribunal to rule against the IG,
only Eternity now can make the Living Tribunal change his ruling.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882402_2.jpg

Eternity agrees, realizing the impending danger and faints:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882403_3.jpg

A single phrase uttered by LT actually POWERS UP the Infinity Gauntlet.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882404_4.jpg

The result in an instant:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882405_5.jpg

....................................................................................

Sincerely friends, I don't see how yall don't see this.

Yet you won't find a single bio or writer comment that states the LT has absolute control over the IG. The Infinity War series doesn't redefine the LT's ruling over the gauntlet. All the LT has ever been shown to have power over is the gems before they are working together. He has never been shown to have the same kind of power over them afterwards.

The gems are far greater combined than they ever have been separate. Overcoming the IG after it has been formed is far different than stopping the gems from working together in the first place.

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Yet you won't find a single bio or writer comment
that states the LT has absolute control over the IG.

Bio:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/878627_ltbio6iyag7.jpg

On Panel:

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7757/ltorderswl0iy.th.jpg

First:

It doesn't exactly say the LT has absolute control,
but it does tells us LT is superior to the IG, and above GOD. (IG)

Second: (next arc)

Infinity War simply cemented this,
by showing us the LT with a phrase giving the IG significance.

Third: (next arc)

Rune/IG arc tells us the LT can defeat the IG easily.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

The Infinity War series doesn't redefine the LT's ruling over the gauntlet. All the LT has ever been shown to have power over is the gems before they are working together.
He has never been shown to have the same kind of power over them afterwards.
I disagree.

If the Gems in unison have absolutely no IG/power because the LT said so,
and then the IG becomes relevant because the LT said so,
it's quite clear that the LT has absolute control over the Gems/IG.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

The gems are far greater combined than they ever have been separate.
Cool, I know that.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Overcoming the IG after it has been formed is far different
than stopping the gems from working together in the first place.
I don't know what else to tell ya.
Originally posted by Mr Master

Warlock/IG unleashes his fury, obliterating the hierarchy: (LT is unfazed)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742918_w6jk3.jpg

With a gesture, LT stops the IG attack, and re-creates the hierarchy:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742919_w7xt1.jpg
Handbooks, taking into consideration this specific issue,
tell us the LT's power is superior to the IG.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882575_IG.jpg

In the next arc, LT makes the IG irrelevant ... then with a phrase powers up the IG.

And in the next arc after that,
we read the LT can defeat the IG easily.

kevdude

Originally posted by Mr Master
Bio:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/878627_ltbio6iyag7.jpg

On Panel:

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7757/ltorderswl0iy.th.jpg

First:

It doesn't exactly say the LT has absolute control,
but it does tells us LT is superior to the IG, and above GOD. (IG)

Second: (next arc)

Infinity War simply cemented this,
by showing us the LT with a phrase giving the IG significance.

Third: (next arc)

Rune/IG arc tells us the LT can defeat the IG easily.

I disagree.

If the Gems in unison have absolutely no IG/power because the LT said so,
and then the IG becomes relevant because the LT said so,
it's quite clear that the LT has absolute control over the Gems/IG.

Cool, I know that.

I don't know what else to tell ya.

Handbooks, taking into consideration this specific issue,
tell us the LT's power is superior to the IG.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882575_IG.jpg

In the next arc, LT makes the IG irrelevant ... then with a phrase powers up the IG.

And in the next arc after that,
we read the LT can defeat the IG easily.

Reading from all of that I would have to agree, but the thing is how would everything look after the battle or Adam/Thanos resisting the LT to say the least? Not to good it seems

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
Bio:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/878627_ltbio6iyag7.jpg

On Panel:

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7757/ltorderswl0iy.th.jpg

First:

It doesn't exactly say the LT has absolute control,

That's correct, so we can't assume that he does.

Originally posted by Mr Master
but it does tells us LT is superior to the IG, and above GOD. (IG)

Being superior and having absolute control are two different things.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Second: (next arc)

Infinity War simply cemented this,
by showing us the LT with a phrase giving the IG significance.

He's allowing the gems to work together. No argument there.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Third: (next arc)

Rune/IG arc tells us the LT can defeat the IG easily.

You're talking about the same arc that allowed Rune to bypass the LT's supposed absolute control over the IG?

Originally posted by Mr Master
If the Gems in unison have absolutely no IG/power because the LT said so,
and then the IG becomes relevant because the LT said so,
it's quite clear that the LT has absolute control over the Gems/IG.

Again, stopping them from working together in the first place and stopping them after they have starting working together is completely different.

For example, there are plenty of people who can prevent the Ultimate Nullifier from activating. You will only find a very small handful who can stop it after it's been activated.

Also, if you recall, when the gems were brought together in the Infinity War, it was missing the real Reality Gem. So we don't even know for sure if the LT's ruling could have truly stopped the IG from working.

Mr Master

Originally posted by kevdude

Reading from all of that I would have to agree
thumb up

Originally posted by kevdude

but the thing is how would everything look after the battle
or Adam/Thanos resisting the LT to say the least?
Not to good it seems
If we take Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1 into consideration,
any reality that surrounds the LT & the IG would be obliterated,
whether it takes one hit or more for the LT to win.

If we take the next proceeding arc (Infinity War) into consideration,
the LT (with a thought) can make the IG in-affective or affective.

Imo, that's clearly absolute power over the IG,
regardless that the Marvel Handbooks tell us the LT is superior to the IG,
and regardless that Infinity Watch #2 tells us the LT is above Gods. (like the IG)

If this isn't concrete enough,
we have the next arc after these two,
which is what lead to the Ultraverse/Avengers arc,
there we learn that the LT can defeat the IG easily.

But, I personally already knew that from the depiction in Infinity War.

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

That's correct, so we can't assume that he does.
I disagree.

Evidence begs to differ imo.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Being superior and having absolute control are two different things.
I agree.

Absolute control over the IG was demonstrated by the LT in Infinity War.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

He's allowing the gems to work together. No argument there.
Which = to control over.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

You're talking about the same arc
that allowed Rune to bypass the LT's supposed absolute control over the IG?
Yes.

Rune is from another Multiverse,
apparently, the LT's judgement only catered to residents of the Prime Multiverse,
this is why the Soul Gem was dying to get out of the Prime Multiverse,
and return to Rune's.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Again, stopping them from working together in the first place
and stopping them after they have starting working together is completely different.
I understand that,
that's not going to stop the LT from stomping the IG though.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

For example, there are plenty of people who can prevent the Ultimate Nullifier from activating.
You will only find a very small handful who can stop it after it's been activated.
Imo, this doesn't relate good friend.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Also, if you recall, when the gems were brought together in the Infinity War, it was missing the real Reality Gem. So we don't even know for sure if the LT's ruling could have truly stopped the IG from working.
It only took 4 Gems (power/mind/soul/space) to nearly collapse the Omniverse.
These same 4 Gems were continuously creating entire UniverseS back to back
and stacking them one top of one another.

5 Gems is enough to give someone a taste of Godhood.

In fact, backed by the Power Gem,
it grants absolute power over Time/Space/Mind & Soul.

This is surely why,
Magus was able to completely control the nullification energies of the UN,
which as we know, can erase even Eternity/Infinity. (all that is, was or ever will be)

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree.

Evidence begs to differ imo.

As you said, your opinion.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Absolute control over the IG was demonstrated by the LT in Infinity War.

Which = to control over.

Control over the gems, not the complete IG.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Rune is from another Multiverse,
apparently, the LT's judgement only catered to residents of the Prime Multiverse,
this is why the Soul Gem was dying to get out of the Prime Multiverse,
and return to Rune's.

So the omnipotent LT either didn't have the power to make the ruling cross multiverses or the intelligence to forsee this happening.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I understand that,
that's not going to stop the LT from stomping the IG though.

In your opinion only.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Imo, this doesn't relate good friend.

Stopping any weapon after it has been activated is different than stopping it from coming together.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It only took 4 Gems (power/mind/soul/space) to nearly collapse the Omniverse.
These same 4 Gems were continuously creating entire UniverseS back to back
and stacking them one top of one another.

5 Gems is enough to give someone a taste of Godhood.

In fact, backed by the Power Gem,
it grants absolute power over Time/Space/Mind & Soul.

This is surely why,
Magus was able to completely control the nullification energies of the UN,
which as we know, can erase even Eternity/Infinity. (all that is, was or ever will be)

All of which just shows you how powerful the incomplete set of gems are. These aren't equal to all 6 gems.

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

As you said, your opinion.
Imo, according to the facts. smile

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Control over the gems, not the complete IG.
Even if it's the IG that's affected?

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882401_1.jpg

"His (LT) judgement is obviously keeping the GEMS from working together"

Gems together = IG.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

So the omnipotent LT either didn't have the power to make the ruling cross multiverses
or the intelligence to forsee this happening.
Well, I can't define the specifics behind this twist,
I only know that since Rune was from another Multiverse,
he was able to unite the Gems.

As for the LT not being able to make his ruling across Multiverses,
I'm going to dismiss that one with confidence.

Marvel wanted to make another IG arc,
all it takes is some pis or overlooking certain established canon acts to do so.

Happens all the time good friend, you know this.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

In your opinion only.
And Marvel's ...

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882575_IG.jpg

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7757/ltorderswl0iy.th.jpg

... but who's counting?
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Stopping any weapon after it has been activated
is different than stopping it from coming together.
In your opinion only. stick out tongue

Originally posted by celestialdemon

All of which just shows you how powerful the incomplete set of gems are.
These aren't equal to all 6 gems.
Correct, and the LT is above both scenarios according to Marvel.

Lord S

Mr Master, my dear friend...I remember being involved in a bitter feud with you about this a few years ago, in your early KMC days. While my respect for you has grown tremendously over the years, my position on this subject remains the same.

I don't feel like getting into a huge debate over it this time, but evidence would suggest that LT is not necessarily above an IG wielder, while the gems are used as one. Once they're separated, yes he could prevent them from linking up, but in W&IW #1 he did not display anything to prove that he was, with absolute certainty, more powerful than Warlock...aside from his verbal claim of superiority...to which Warlock replied, "another assertion yet to be proven".

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
Imo, according to the facts. smile

Which is still your opinion.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Even if it's the IG that's affected?

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882401_1.jpg

"His (LT) judgement is obviously keeping the GEMS from working together"

Kept the GEMS from working together. The gems become the IG when they are working together. Two different things. Plus, the Reality Gem wasn't there.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Gems together = IG.

Gems working together in unison = IG. The gems in the Infinity War were neither working together nor were they all there.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, I can't define the specifics behind this twist,
I only know that since Rune was from another Multiverse,
he was able to unite the Gems.

As for the LT not being able to make his ruling across Multiverses,
I'm going to dismiss that one with confidence.

Marvel wanted to make another IG arc,
all it takes is some pis or overlooking certain established canon acts to do so.

Happens all the time good friend, you know this.

If this story is filled with PIS, then it's probably not good to bring it up in defense of the LT being about to beat the IG easily.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And Marvel's ...

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882575_IG.jpg

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7757/ltorderswl0iy.th.jpg

... but who's counting?

Still not reading anything about the LT having absolute control over the IG.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Correct, and the LT is above both scenarios according to Marvel.

Not disputing the LT being superior to the IG.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Lord S

Mr Master, my dear friend...I remember being involved in a bitter feud with you about this a few years ago, in your early KMC days. While my respect for you has grown tremendously over the years, my position on this subject remains the same.

I don't feel like getting into a huge debate over it this time,

but evidence would suggest that LT is not necessarily above an IG wielder,
while the gems are used as one.
You know I gots the same level of respect for you too true debater. thumb up

But, I'm gonna have to disagree with the same amount of respect,
because I have to go by what Marvel says, on panel, and in their Handbooks.
Originally posted by Mr Master

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882575_IG.jpg

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7757/ltorderswl0iy.th.jpg
Originally posted by Lord S

Once they're separated, yes he could prevent them from linking up,
but in W&IW #1 he did not display anything to prove that he was, with absolute certainty, more powerful than Warlock...aside from his verbal claim of superiority...to which Warlock replied, "another assertion yet to be proven".
His verbal claim came after this:
Warlock/IG unleashes his fury, obliterating the hierarchy: (LT is unfazed)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742918_w6jk3.jpg

With a gesture, LT stops the IG attack, and re-creates the hierarchy:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742919_w7xt1.jpg

Seems like the LT had some weight behind that "verbal claim" good friend,
not to mention that the Marvel Handbook corroborates LT's verbal claim,
not to mention that Warlock (while omnipotent) also confirmed the "verbal claim."

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Which is still your opinion.
According to the surrounding facts.

I can't say "hey look here, that's the LT stomping the IG"
because they've never actually battled,
other than the LT (with a gesture) nullifying Warlock/IG's furious attack,
which just so happened to obliterate the hierarchy, but couldn't even scratch the LT.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Kept the GEMS from working together. The gems become the IG when they are working together. Two different things. Plus, the Reality Gem wasn't there.
Right, kept the Gems from working together which becomes the IG.

I mean come on C, this directly affects the IG.

Reality Gem wasn't there,
but it was there when the LT made his ruling which was prior to Infinity War.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Gems working together in unison = IG.
The gems in the Infinity War were neither working together nor were they all there.
The Gems weren't working together because the LT said so.

Again, all the Gems were there when it was known
the LT ruled to separate them permanently in Warlock & the Infinity Watch #2.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

If this story is filled with PIS,
then it's probably not good to bring it up
in defense of the LT being about to beat the IG easily.
I never said it was full of PIS,
I said, Marvel wanted to make another IG arc,
in order to do so, they had to find a way to make LT's ruling null,
they did this by bringing in Rune who's an inhabitant of another Multiverse.

That's some PIS, but not the kind that calls for dismissal of the facts withIN the arc.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Still not reading anything about the LT having absolute control over the IG.
Well, if making the IG in-affective or affective with but a thought is not control, as you wish.

But I'll leave you with what the LT said about the Infinity Gauntlet.

LT is frank and clear ... it's Eternity's status that's threatened by the IG, NOT the LT:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882805_LT1.jpg http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882806_LT2.jpg

In fact, the LT could care less about who's dominating reality, with or without the IG:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882811_L1.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882812_l2.jpg

You know why the LT could care less who's the embodiment of Reality?
(so long as the balance remains)

Cause all Reality is just putty in the LT's hands:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882813_l3.jpg

"Alpha & Omega" ... is twirling around in the LT's hand.

Respect the LT yall. swank
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Not disputing the LT being superior to the IG.
thumb up

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
According to the surrounding facts.

I can't say "hey look here, that's the LT stomping the IG"
because they've never actually battled,
other than the LT (with a gesture) nullifying Warlock/IG's furious attack,
which just so happened to obliterate the hierarchy, but couldn't even scratch the LT.

Yet the LT admitted that the battle between him and Warlock would destroy reality. LT's words, not mine. That doesn't classify as a stomp.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Right, kept the Gems from working together which becomes the IG.

I mean come on C, this directly affects the IG.

As stated, it prevents the GEMS from working in unison. It says nothing about shutting down the IG after the gems have already started working together.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Reality Gem wasn't there,
but it was there when the LT made his ruling which was prior to Infinity War.

The same ruling where the LT said the battle between the two would destroy reality. Again, doesn't sound like a stomp.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Gems weren't working together because the LT said so.

Already established.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, all the Gems were there when it was known
the LT ruled to separate them permanently in Warlock & the Infinity Watch #2.

Yet, the LT's ruling didn't take effect until AFTER Warlock separated the gems.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said it was full of PIS,
I said, Marvel wanted to make another IG arc,
in order to do so, they had to find a way to make LT's ruling null,
they did this by bringing in Rune who's an inhabitant of another Multiverse.

That's some PIS, but not the kind that calls for dismissal of the facts withIN the arc.

So even though the entire arc was based on Rune getting the runes and forming the IG (PIS), you still get to pick and choose what wasn't PIS?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, if making the IG in-affective or affective with but a thought is not control, as you wish.

Making the gems not working in unison. He NEVER made the complete IG ineffective.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But I'll leave you with what the LT said about the Infinity Gauntlet.

LT is frank and clear ... it's Eternity's status that's threatened by the IG, NOT the LT:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882805_LT1.jpg http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882806_LT2.jpg

In fact, the LT could care less about who's dominating reality, with or without the IG:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882811_L1.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882812_l2.jpg

You know why the LT could care less, who's the embodiment of Reality?

Cause all Reality is just putty in the LT's hands:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882813_l3.jpg

"Alpha & Omega" ... is twirling around in the LT's hand.

Respect the LT yall. swank

All this is pointless. No one has EVER assumed the IG threatens the LT's status, because no one can do what the LT does.

unknowable

Mr M do you eat and sleep this stuff?Hope I'm not offending you but you should consider working for marvel,honestly you could be an editor of sorts that cleans up misleading information like we sometimes see in bios lets say.Its a thought.

Toodle loo

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Yet the LT admitted that the battle between him and Warlock
would destroy reality. LT's words, not mine. That doesn't classify as a stomp.
I'm not surprised the Dimension of Manifestations (that reality) would be destroyed,
we're talking about the LT here, who holds the Alpha & Omega in one hand.

One shot is all it takes to take out reality.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

As stated, it prevents the GEMS from working in unison. It says nothing about shutting down the IG after the gems have already started working together.
Neither did it say the LT couldn't.

Remember friend,
any notion suggesting that the LT would have to move more than a finger to stop the IG,
died after Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1.

Although,
it was also withIN that ver same arc that the LT nullified the IG attack with a thought.

You seem to be ignoring that.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

The same ruling where the LT said the battle between the two would destroy reality.
Again, doesn't sound like a stomp.
And?

All it takes is one move to destroy reality, so, what difference does it make?

Did the LT allude to any amount of time it would take?

No.

The LT could've just as easily been speaking about himself.

In other words,
if the LT has to attack Warlock and in doing so destroys the surrounding reality,
this would be labeled a "confrontation" ... even it only takes the LT one blast to stomp.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Yet, the LT's ruling didn't take effect until AFTER Warlock separated the gems.
Warlock had just saved the universe and thought he was deserving of the IG.
LT gave him a chance to give up his power.
It doesn't mean he couldn't have taken it away.
In the past, he's given people chances to rectify problems before he takes action.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

So even though the entire arc was based on Rune getting the runes
and forming the IG (PIS),
you still get to pick and choose what wasn't PIS?
I think you should read the arc, before judging it.

It's 100% canon, so, there's really not much more to build on that.

I'm not in the mood to crop, so here's the Marvel.com identical bio:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gems

(second to last paragraph)
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Making the gems not working in unison.

He NEVER made the complete IG ineffective.
Right, he just made IG/Warlock's attack ... in-affective ... with a simple gesture no less.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

All this is pointless. No one has EVER assumed the IG threatens the LT's status, because no one can do what the LT does.
It's not pointless, it fits.

The IG gives control over what Eternity is, which is, all of Space-Time. (basically God)
(sometimes Eternity represents both himself, and Infinity)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/721893_etrw0.jpg

"Eternity IS A GOD! He is ...
the complete embodiment of everyone and everything ...
... on All levels of Creation"

.........................................................................................

All of Space-Time's beginning and end,
twirls like a child's toy in the LT's hand as stated above,
he literally controls its destiny.

Without the LT, the IG is insignificant, as proven on panel.

And again, please,
stop ONLY focusing on the ambiguity of Warlock & the infinity Watch #1.

The subsequent arcs (W & IW later issues/Infinity War/Ultraverse-Avengers)
clear things up for us.

Imo, from what I've seen/read,
the LT has absolute power over the IG,
but I will submit, his 3 faces must agree.

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not surprised the Dimension of Manifestations (that reality) would be destroyed,
we're talking about the LT here, who holds the Alpha & Omega in one hand.

One shot is all it takes to take out reality.

Which may or may not have been enough to defeat Warlock with the IG.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Neither did it say the LT couldn't.

Then why didn't he?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Remember friend,
any notion suggesting that the LT would have to move more than a finger to stop the IG,
died after Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1.

Yet it was after the finger snap that the LT himself said forcibly removing the IG from Warlock would destroy reality.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Although,
it was also withIN that ver same arc that the LT nullified the IG attack with a thought.

You seem to be ignoring that.

I haven't ignored it. The LT nullified an outburst from Warlock. An attack like that and an actual one on one battle are very different.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And?

All it takes is one move to destroy reality, so, what difference does it make?

Did the LT allude to any amount of time it would take?

No.

The LT could've just as easily been speaking about himself.

In other words,
if the LT has to attack Warlock and in doing so destroys the surrounding reality,
this would be labeled a "confrontation" ... even it only takes the LT one blast to stomp.

And we don't know for sure if that one blast would have stopped Warlock. Like you said, the LT could have easily been speaking about himself, but the mere fact that we don't know for sure means him one-shotting the IG is not fact, merely opinion.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Warlock had just saved the universe and thought he was deserving of the IG.
LT gave him a chance to give up his power.
It doesn't mean he couldn't have taken it away.
In the past, he's given people chances to rectify problems before he takes action.

I'm not saying he couldn't have taken the IG away from Warlock. I'm just saying it wouldn't have been as easy as you think.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I think you should read the arc, before judging it.

It's 100% canon, so, there's really not much more to build on that.

I'm not in the mood to crop, so here's the Marvel.com identical bio:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gems

(second to last paragraph)

So it's 100% canon? So what does that say about all 6 gems working despite the LT's ruling?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Right, he just made IG/Warlock's attack ... in-affective ... with a simple gesture no less.

An outburst does not equal a battle. An outburst from the IG was enough to blow the abstracts back. A battle easily defeat all of them at the same time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's not pointless, it fits.

The IG gives control over what Eternity is, which is, all of Space-Time. (basically God)
(sometimes Eternity represents both himself, and Infinity)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/721893_etrw0.jpg

"Eternity IS A GOD! He is ...
the complete embodiment of everyone and everything ...
... on All levels of Creation"

.........................................................................................

All of Space-Time's beginning and end,
twirls like a child's toy in the LT's hand as stated above,
he literally controls its destiny.

Without the LT, the IG is insignificant, as proven on panel.

And again, please,
stop ONLY focusing on the ambiguity of Warlock & the infinity Watch #1.

The subsequent arcs (W & IW later issues/Infinity War/Ultraverse-Avengers)
clear things up for us.

Imo, from what I've seen/read,
the LT has absolute power over the IG,
but I will submit, his 3 faces must agree.

Infinity War cleared up nothing, since not all 6 gems were used in unison. When they were all used in unison (Ulraverse-Avengers), the IG worked fine.

In the Illuminati arc, the Watcher refused to take the IG from Reed stating that no being should possess it's full power. He also said he was glad Reed didn't succumb to it's power. What power if it's not supposed to work in the first place?

Even the LT admitted he didn't know everything. As you well know, in WATIW #11, the LT admitted to Eternity that he didn't know if any of the Infinity Watch could be trusted with the gems. So there are obviously some things that are outside of his influence.

Mr Master

Originally posted by unknowable

Mr M do you eat and sleep this stuff?Hope I'm not offending you but you should consider working for marvel,honestly you could be an editor of sorts that cleans up misleading information like we sometimes see in bios lets say.Its a thought.

Toodle loo
Thanx friend, but it takes more than that to become a Marvel editor. sad

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Which may or may not have been enough to defeat Warlock with the IG.
Perhaps.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Then why didn't he?
To add drama to the story.

We already saw what happens when the Warlock/IG attacked the LT ...

,, nothing, not only nothing, but the LT nullified the attack effortlessly with a gesture.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Yet it was after the finger snap
that the LT himself said forcibly removing the IG from Warlock would destroy reality.
The reality you're talking about is the Dimension of Manifestations,
and yes, I understand the LT said that afterwards.

Imo, it could be that shunting the IG attack is a joke to the LT,
but perhaps removing the IG from the wielder is a bit more difficult.

Either way,
the fact remains that the Marvel Handbooks & Marvel.com clearly state,
the LT's power surpasses that of the Gems
based on the LT having the power
to make the IG in-affective, or affective. (working in unison or not)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882575_IG.jpg

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Living_Tribunal
Originally posted by celestialdemon

I haven't ignored it. The LT nullified an outburst from Warlock.

An attack like that and an actual one on one battle are very different.
"an outburst?"

Warlock obliterated the hierarchy, only the LT was unfazed.

And I agree, it wouldn't be the same in a battle,
in a battle,
the LT would be ready to fight from the start,
unlike that scenario where the LT was attacked by Warlock
without the LT defending himself.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

And we don't know for sure if that one blast would have stopped Warlock. Like you said, the LT could have easily been speaking about himself, but the mere fact that we don't know for sure means him one-shotting the IG is not fact, merely opinion.
"opinion?" ... of course, a story has never been published where they battle.
I did say earlier on that my opinion is based on the surrounding facts.

If the LT was able to withstand unharmed, and shunt the IG attack with a gesture,
I'm sure the LT could stomp the IG one shot style.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

I'm not saying he couldn't have taken the IG away from Warlock.
I'm just saying it wouldn't have been as easy as you think.
You have that right to that opinion good friend.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

So it's 100% canon?

So what does that say about all 6 gems working despite the LT's ruling?
Apparently, for the sake of comic book sales, (another IG arc)
the restriction was only subjected to the prime Multiverse,
which makes sense since that's the LT's primary concern in Marvel.

So Marvel had a creature from another Multiverse come in and combine the Gems.

Imo, this is not cool,
but it is an effort on Marvel's part to at-least try & make sense of it.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

An outburst does not equal a battle.
An outburst from the IG was enough to blow the abstracts back.
A battle easily defeat all of them at the same time.
I'm gonna have to disagree here.

This "outburst" line you've tagged on what Warlock did is not accurate.

Warlock didn't just blow back the hierarchy, he demolished them:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742918_w6jk3.jpg

Eternity was blown to pieces,
which gives us an indication that the rest met the same fate,
since Eternity > the rest of them.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Infinity War cleared up nothing, since not all 6 gems were used in unison. When they were all used in unison (Ulraverse-Avengers), the IG worked fine.
Infinity War, depicted the LT as the one that makes the IG significant.
At the end of Infinity War,
Eternity pops up and tells Thanos that the restriction has been placed on the IG again,
I can't see the writers making Eternity do that, unless the LT's ruling is significant.

As for (Ultraverse-Avengers)

I explained what took place above.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

In the Illuminati arc, the Watcher refused to take the IG from Reed stating that no being should possess it's full power. He also said he was glad Reed didn't succumb to it's power.

What power if it's not supposed to work in the first place?
Sometimes things take place off panel, or are simply retconned away.

Perhaps the LT lifted his restriction off panel,
or perhaps DeFalco allowed the writers to ignore that detail in order to publish another IG arc.

Only cosmic aficionados would even know about that detail,
you think DeFalco is gonna stop the flow of dow coming into Marvel as sales
cause of an intricacy that will not be noticed by the majority? Nah good friend.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Even the LT admitted he didn't know everything.
As you well know, in WATIW #11,
the LT admitted to Eternity that he didn't know
if any of the Infinity Watch could be trusted with the gems.

So there are obviously some things that are outside of his influence.
That was written back in 92 ...

LT is ... 1997

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882813_l3.jpg

"Serene in his Omnipotence"

"None possess his Omniscient perspective"

and ... "Alpha & Omega" (the beginning & end) ... is twirling around in the LT's hand.

Hewhoknowsall

Wow... I never knew this would go on for 60 posts...

vlaaad12345

The lt is above the gauntlet...the end,stop dragging this on its been proven time and time again.

quanchi112

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
The lt is above the gauntlet...the end,stop dragging this on its been proven time and time again. No one is disagreeing with that to my knowledge. I dont think the Lt is taking this in one blow. Thats the point.

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master

,, nothing, not only nothing, but the LT nullified the attack effortlessly with a gesture.

The reality you're talking about is the Dimension of Manifestations,
and yes, I understand the LT said that afterwards.

Imo, it could be that shunting the IG attack is a joke to the LT,
but perhaps removing the IG from the wielder is a bit more difficult.

Which is the point I've been arguing. The LT removing the IG from the wielder would be more difficult than a simple snap of his fingers. The LT himself admitted as much.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Either way,
the fact remains that the Marvel Handbooks & Marvel.com clearly state,
the LT's power surpasses that of the Gems
based on the LT having the power
to make the IG in-affective, or affective. (working in unison or not)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882575_IG.jpg

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Living_Tribunal

Again, not arguing the LT's superiority to the IG only how easy it would be for the LT to defeat the IG.

Tyrant is superior to Thanos. That doesn't mean he could take him down with little effort.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"an outburst?"

Warlock obliterated the hierarchy, only the LT was unfazed.

And I agree, it wouldn't be the same in a battle,
in a battle,
the LT would be ready to fight from the start,
unlike that scenario where the LT was attacked by Warlock
without the LT defending himself.

All he did was blow them back. None of them look seriously hurt. We've seen what the IG can do to the cosmics when the wielder really tried to defeat them.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"opinion?" ... of course, a story has never been published where they battle.
I did say earlier on that my opinion is based on the surrounding facts.

If the LT was able to withstand unharmed, and shunt the IG attack with a gesture,
I'm sure the LT could stomp the IG one shot style.

The attack wasn't focused on the LT. Like I said, we've seen what the IG can do to the cosmics, and it's far more than what Warlock displayed during this attack. It would take a lot more effort than what he showed here for the LT for him to defeat the IG.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Apparently, for the sake of comic book sales, (another IG arc)
the restriction was only subjected to the prime Multiverse,
which makes sense since that's the LT's primary concern in Marvel.

So Marvel had a creature from another Multiverse come in and combine the Gems.

Imo, this is not cool,
but it is an effort on Marvel's part to at-least try & make sense of it.

Regardless of the reason, it's still canon that the IG worked with Rune. And nowhere is it stated even in that series that the LT's ruling only applied to the prime multiverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm gonna have to disagree here.

This "outburst" line you've tagged on what Warlock did is not accurate.

Warlock didn't just blow back the hierarchy, he demolished them:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742918_w6jk3.jpg

Eternity was blown to pieces,
which gives us an indication that the rest met the same fate,
since Eternity > the rest of them.

Yet the rest of the hierarchy still looks intact. Eternity is also the only one out of all of them that took a direct shot from Warlock immediately before this.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Infinity War, depicted the LT as the one that makes the IG significant.
At the end of Infinity War,
Eternity pops up and tells Thanos that the restriction has been placed on the IG again,
I can't see the writers making Eternity do that, unless the LT's ruling is significant.

The LT powered up 5 gems not 6. We've seen all 6 gems work just fine even without the LT's ruling being rescinded.

Eternity also said something like "let it be known the power the LT represents will never allow the gems to work together again." Are we to believe Eternity can make it so that not even the LT can make them work again?

Originally posted by Mr Master
As for (Ultraverse-Avengers)

I explained what took place above.

Unfortunately, the IG being allowed to work simply for sales purposes isn't a good enough argument in a debate.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Sometimes things take place off panel, or are simply retconned away.

Perhaps the LT lifted his restriction off panel,
or perhaps DeFalco allowed the writers to ignore that detail in order to publish another IG arc.

All of which is irrelevant in a debate. We go by what's on panel. You've debated by that mantra the entire time I've known you. On panel, the LT has never rescinded his ban on the IG since the Infinity War, and they still have worked. The ban was even specifically mentioned by the Illuminati. The Watcher, of all people, should be well aware of it being in place. Yet, he acted like it didn't matter, and the power of the IG would corrupt Reed.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Only cosmic aficionados would even know about that detail,
you think DeFalco is gonna stop the flow of dow coming into Marvel as sales
cause of an intricacy that will not be noticed by the majority? Nah good friend.

All of which has no bearing in a debate.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That was written back in 92 ...

LT is ... 1997

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/882813_l3.jpg

"Serene in his Omnipotence"

"None possess his Omniscient perspective"

and ... "Alpha & Omega" (the beginning & end) ... is twirling around in the LT's hand.

Yet an even more recent version of the LT needed She-Hulk's advice on whether to replace 616 with the Ultimate universe? confused

celestialdemon

Originally posted by quanchi112
No one is disagreeing with that to my knowledge. I dont think the Lt is taking this in one blow. Thats the point.

Exactly.

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Which is the point I've been arguing. The LT removing the IG from the wielder would be more difficult than a simple snap of his fingers. The LT himself admitted as much.
LT never admitted it would take more than snapping his fingers.

LT said it would destroy the Dimension of Manifestations,
I know the LT can destroy that reality with a thought,
so, it could still be that easy.

A snap of the LT's fingers can mean incredible power is being used.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Again, not arguing the LT's superiority to the IG
only how easy it would be for the LT to defeat the IG.

Tyrant is superior to Thanos. That doesn't mean he could take him down with little effort.
No proof either way.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

All he did was blow them back. None of them look seriously hurt.

We've seen what the IG can do to the cosmics when the wielder really tried to defeat them.
"none of them look seriously hurt?"

You're kidding right?
Originally posted by celestialdemon

The attack wasn't focused on the LT.
It was an omni-directional blast, everyone got it evenly.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Like I said, we've seen what the IG can do to the cosmics,
and it's far more than what Warlock displayed during this attack.
I also saw what Warlock did, while filled with fury, he unleashed the IG power,
Eternity was blown to pieces,
and the rest of the hierarchy was getting blown like motes in a storm.

Before the artist can add more details, the LT nullified the attack.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

It would take a lot more effort than what he showed here for the LT for him to defeat the IG.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Regardless of the reason, it's still canon that the IG worked with Rune. And nowhere is it stated even in that series that the LT's ruling only applied to the prime multiverse.
Actually, now you're wrong.

The Soul gem specifically stated it was waiting for Rune since the dawn of time,
it knew one day the LT would rule against it's significance withIN the prime Multiverse,
like it knew one day a creature from another Multiverse would arrive and skip that rule.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Yet the rest of the hierarchy still looks intact.
Eternity is also the only one out of all of them that took a direct shot from Warlock
immediately before this.
The rest of the hierarchy was getting blown apart,
the artist didn't have another page to show us the end result,
because the LT nullified the attack.

Eternity getting blasted before means little,
as it was clear at that point, Warlock wasn't out to obliterate him,
afterwards though, Warlock became enraged and was out to destroy them all.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Eternity also said something like "let it be known the power the LT represents will never allow the gems to work together again."

Are we to believe Eternity can make it so
that not even the LT can make them work again?
If you believe Eternity is the power that the LT represents, then yea.

But actually, Eternity was only repeating what the LT had told him,
for the LT said the same thing.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Unfortunately,
the IG being allowed to work simply for sales purposes isn't a good enough argument in a debate.
Just stating the sensible logic friend.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

All of which is irrelevant in a debate. We go by what's on panel. You've debated by that mantra the entire time I've known you. On panel, the LT has never rescinded his ban on the IG since the Infinity War, and they still have worked. The ban was even specifically mentioned by the Illuminati. The Watcher, of all people, should be well aware of it being in place. Yet, he acted like it didn't matter, and the power of the IG would corrupt Reed.
Yea, the ban was mentioned in Illuminati,
and no one had any idea who made that ban.

In fact, they made it seem as though that never happened:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/886891_Ill.jpg

Thanx for reminding me of this CD,
now I'm convinced that the LT's ruling was retcooned away off-panel. smile

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Yet an even more recent version of the LT needed She-Hulk's advice
on whether to replace 616 with the Ultimate universe?
laughing

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, the ban was mentioned in Illuminati,
and no one had any idea who made that ban.

In fact, they made it seem as though that never happened:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/886891_Ill.jpg

Thanx for reminding me of this CD,
now I'm convinced that the LT's ruling was retcooned away off-panel. smile

hmm, were any members of the illuminati actually present when LT made his ruling on the gems? (i could look, but i'm WAY too lazy lol)

anyhow, if the illuminati weren't around when LT judged against the gems, how could/would they know for sure what really happened with them?

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
LT never admitted it would take more than snapping his fingers.

LT said it would destroy the Dimension of Manifestations,
I know the LT can destroy that reality with a thought,
so, it could still be that easy.

A snap of the LT's fingers can mean incredible power is being used.

Correct, but none of that means he could defeat the IG just as easily.

Originally posted by Mr Master
No proof either way.

Agreed, which is why stating with absolute certainty that one will happen over the other is wrong.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"none of them look seriously hurt?"

You're kidding right?

A Celestial was still standing there also.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It was an omni-directional blast, everyone got it evenly.

I also saw what Warlock did, while filled with fury, he unleashed the IG power,
Eternity was blown to pieces,
and the rest of the hierarchy was getting blown like motes in a storm.

Before the artist can add more details, the LT nullified the attack.

Which proves that the LT is more powerful and durable than the abstracts. But we all already knew that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

That's fine. Like you said earlier, there's no proof either way.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, now you're wrong.

The Soul gem specifically stated it was waiting for Rune since the dawn of time,
it knew one day the LT would rule against it's significance withIN the prime Multiverse,
like it knew one day a creature from another Multiverse would arrive and skip that rule.

So the LT either couldn't see the future where Rune took the IG to another multiverse or he did but allowed Rune to defy his almighty ruling of the gems never being able to used again. Either situation doesn't fit very well.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The rest of the hierarchy was getting blown apart,
the artist didn't have another page to show us the end result,
because the LT nullified the attack.

Eternity getting blasted before means little,
as it was clear at that point, Warlock wasn't out to obliterate him,
afterwards though, Warlock became enraged and was out to destroy them all.

So how is it possible that Eternity, whom is superior to the rest sans the LT, was blown to bits as you say, but the others are intact?

Originally posted by Mr Master
If you believe Eternity is the power that the LT represents, then yea.

But actually, Eternity was only repeating what the LT had told him,
for the LT said the same thing.

I don't believe that. Why would Eternity be the power the LT represents? That would make Eternity's statement senseless since he would be talking about himself.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Just stating the sensible logic friend.

But still invalid in a debate.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, the ban was mentioned in Illuminati,
and no one had any idea who made that ban.

In fact, they made it seem as though that never happened:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/886891_Ill.jpg

Thanx for reminding me of this CD,
now I'm convinced that the LT's ruling was retcooned away off-panel. smile

No problem. As soon as you have actual proof of that, then I'll believe it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
laughing

... I'm not lol at you, but at the thought.

Anyway, I guess you didn't know this,
but during She-Hulk's time as an appointed cosmic judge,
she was endowed with cosmic senses and authority, she was herself a God.

She didn't give the LT advice, she spoke up for Eternity,
convincing the LT not to erase/replace Eternity.

And just how would the cosmic judge of everything be convinced not to do something? That implies doubt about what he was planning on doing in the first place. How can anyone who is omniscient doubt anything they are planning on doing?

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

hmm, were any members of the illuminati actually present
when LT made his ruling on the gems?
Of course good friend, it was an arc crossing all mainstream titles.

Dr Strange was an integral part of Galactus' plans.

Black Bolt wasn't there though, and I wonder where Reed was,
since Torch/Thing/and Sue were there.
Originally posted by Galan007

anyhow, if the illuminati weren't around when LT judged against the gems,
how could/would they know for sure what really happened with them?
Good thing we don't have to worry about this. stick out tongue

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Correct, but none of that means he could defeat the IG just as easily.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Agreed, which is why stating with absolute certainty
that one will happen over the other is wrong.
My certainty is an opinion based on facts.

I haven't made absolute statements.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

A Celestial was still standing there also.
Not standing as if un-affected,
the artist was obviously trying to include all the characters in the page.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

That's fine. Like you said earlier, there's no proof either way.
True, but imo, there's ample proof that supports my opinion, just not as a fact.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

So the LT either couldn't see the future where Rune took the IG to another multiverse or he did but allowed Rune to defy his almighty ruling of the gems never being able to used again. Either situation doesn't fit very well.
It fits just fine with me.

Simple, the LT's ruling was subject only to the inhabitants of the prime Multiverse,
a being from another Multiverse comes in, and the rules don't apply.

LT couldn't even confront Rune himself because of this,
so he sent Surfer who curbstomped Rune.

If the LT's 3 faces don't agree, there's nothing the LT can do directly.

* This part of the debate can be discussed no further,
I explained what happened according to the story, if it's senseless,
I can't do more for ya good friend, you'll have to enquire with Marvel via email.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

So how is it possible that Eternity,
whom is superior to the rest sans the LT,
was blown to bits as you say, but the others are intact?
The others were getting blown apart too,
if you look with meticulous eyes, you'll notice they're dissolving with the blast,
the artist left most of some of them, while the there are others that are unrecognizable.

I can't explain why the artist decided to portray it that way,
I can only explain what took place.

Perhaps the artist didn't want them all to look like confetti.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

I don't believe that. Why would Eternity be the power the LT represents? That would make Eternity's statement senseless since he would be talking about himself.
Precisely.

I used a bit of sarcasm, but I then added:

"But actually, Eternity was only repeating what the LT had told him,
for the LT said the same thing."
Originally posted by celestialdemon

But still invalid in a debate.
Not imo.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

No problem. As soon as you have actual proof of that, then I'll believe it.
TOAA = the writer/artist (approved by DeFalco -Editor-in-Chief)

The writer of this arc (Illuminati) decided to make the LT's ruling inconsequential.

That's the proof in the scan.

Which is why Reed asked, "Says who?"

Namor adds, "Exactly"

And the ruling of the Gems is never even alluded to again in the rest of the arc.

TOAA can do anything.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

And just how would the cosmic judge of everything be convinced not to do something?
That implies doubt about what he was planning on doing in the first place.

How can anyone who is omniscient doubt anything they are planning on doing?
Now you're getting way too technical.

Let's not forget CD, this is comics. smile

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master

My certainty is an opinion based on facts.

I haven't made absolute statements.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It fits just fine with me.

Simple, the LT's ruling was subject only to the inhabitants of the prime Multiverse,
a being from another Multiverse comes in, and the rules don't apply.

LT couldn't even confront Rune himself because of this,
so he sent Surfer who curbstomped Rune.

If the LT's 3 faces don't agree, there's nothing the LT can do directly.

Why shouldn't the rules apply? The LT's decree had nothing to do with specific beings not being able to use the IG. It had to do with the IG itself. If the LT's ruling was absolute, it shouldn't work no matter where it is.

Originally posted by Mr Master
* This part of the debate can be discussed no further,
I explained what happened according to the story, if it's senseless,
I can't do more for ya good friend, you'll have to enquire with Marvel via email.

Fair enough. We've gotten the info we needed from it anyway.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not standing as if un-affected,
the artist was obviously trying to include all the characters in the page.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The others were getting blown apart too,
if you look with meticulous eyes, you'll notice they're dissolving with the blast,
the artist left most of some of them, while the there are others that are unrecognizable.

I can't explain why the artist decided to portray it that way,
I can only explain what took place.

Perhaps the artist didn't want them all to look like confetti.

We'll let these go since this part of the debate is drifting off-topic.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Precisely.

I used a bit of sarcasm, but I then added:

"But actually, Eternity was only repeating what the LT had told him,
for the LT said the same thing."

Obviously the LT was wrong since the IG has worked since his ruling.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not imo.

TOAA = the writer/artist (approved by DeFalco -Editor-in-Chief)

The writer of this arc (Illuminati) decided to make the LT's ruling inconsequential.

That's the proof in the scan.

Which is why Reed asked, "Says who?"

Namor adds, "Exactly"

And the ruling of the Gems is never even alluded to again in the rest of the arc.

TOAA can do anything.

This is pure speculation, and you know it. It's not stated on panel or in bios that the LT's ruling was rescinded. Until there is actually proof, using this in a debate will get you nowhere.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Now you're getting way too technical.

Let's not forget CD, this is comics. smile

You'll run into funny stuff every once in awhile.

If you want adhered perfection to continuity/backstories/and characters,
you're not going to find it in either Marvel or DC at all times without a slip,
the LT and other uber entities may represent omnipotence/omniscience or whathaveyou,
but the person giving these entities these attributes are limited finite minded human beings.

I agree. Obviously there's no way for the writers to know what the future will bring. However, I'm not talking about the future. I'm talking about having a story where the LT is deciding to replace one universe with another and is talked out of it. If he can be talked out of it for whatever reason, then how can he claim to be omniscient?

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Why shouldn't the rules apply?

The LT's decree had nothing to do with specific beings not being able to use the IG.
It had to do with the IG itself.
If the LT's ruling was absolute, it shouldn't work no matter where it is.
TOAA can do anything.

It was actually a direct order from TOAA that ordered the last ban on the Gems:

(end of Infinity War)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/887218_ill2.jpg

TOAA in Infinity War was Jim Starlin

TOAA during the Rune arc was Chris Ulm

TOAA during the Illuminati arc was Michael Bendis
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Obviously the LT was wrong since the IG has worked since his ruling.
The LT wasn't wrong,
it's just that another writer/artist (TOAA) decided to twist the original restriction.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

This is pure speculation, and you know it. It's not stated on panel or in bios that the LT's ruling was rescinded. Until there is actually proof, using this in a debate will get you nowhere.
Proof is in the events that have taken place after the ruling.

Obviously the ruling was either rescinded off panel,
or simply made inconsequential by TOAA of the next two arcs.

Otherwise, it makes no sense that the LT's ruling is being kept in continuity,
and yet is being ignored/overlooked by other writers.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

I agree. Obviously there's no way for the writers to know
what the future will bring.

However, I'm not talking about the future.

I'm talking about having a story
where the LT is deciding to replace one universe with another
and is talked out of it.
If he can be talked out of it for whatever reason,
then how can he claim to be omniscient?
The thing is CD,
LT didn't make a decision that lead to She-Hulk changing his mind.

LT was judging the prime Multiverse,
and then he allowed She-Hulk to make a case for the prime Multiverse.

The LT is not a cosmic tyrant,
the LT is a cosmic judge,
and as such many times he hears a case before deciding on it.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/887226_ltbackzz1.jpg

LT probably knew the decision he would make,
but it's a comic book story friend,
and in order to give it substance that remotely relates to us,
there has to be room for depth in the writing.

psycho gundam

Originally posted by Mr Master
Warlock didn't just blow back the hierarchy, he demolished them:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/742918_w6jk3.jpg

actually, those pieces getting blown back are the remnants of the LT's chair. eternity isn't in the picture it seems. (or he is the one on the ground next to the lt's feet)

anyway, the LT remade or fully healed all those characters present with a snap, and warlock was apparently unaware the LT could perform those feats. looks to me like an ig wielder is blind to the power of anything higher then they are.... predicting the LT's attacks would most likely also be unfathomable.

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA can do anything.

It was actually a direct order from TOAA that ordered the last ban on the Gems:

(end of Infinity War)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/887218_ill2.jpg

TOAA in Infinity War was Jim Starlin

TOAA during the Rune arc was Chris Ulm

TOAA during the Illuminati arc was Michael Bendis

The LT wasn't wrong,
it's just that another writer/artist (TOAA) decided to twist the original restriction.

Proof is in the events that have taken place after the ruling.

Obviously the ruling was either rescinded off panel,
or simply made inconsequential by TOAA of the next two arcs.

Otherwise, it makes no sense that the LT's ruling is being kept in continuity,
and yet is being ignored/overlooked by other writers.

But the ban obviously was still kept in play. As in the Rune arc, the LT himself tells SS that someone is violating his ban on the IG. Whether it was from another multiverse or not does not matter since the ruling was on the IG itself, not on the multiverse. Also, in the Illuminati, the ban was mentioned. Like you said earlier about the end of the Infinity War, the writers wouldn't have mentioned it unless it was significant. Something that's significant doesn't get retconned off panel.

Stating that something was retconned off panel doesn't work, because that opens up way too much stuff to deal with. I could just as easily say that TOAA/writer retconned the IG off panel to in fact be superior to the LT. That's the reason why his ban can be superceded. After all, TOAA/writer has no problem making a "weapon" more powerful than the LT (HOTI).

If we attributed everything to "it happened because TOAA/writer wanted it to be that way", that would mean every incident of PIS would be valid in an argument, because it was the will of TOAA/writer. So Spiderman vs Firelord, Black Panther's cosmic armbar on the Surfer, Storm "shattering" Stardust, etc. can all be used in a debate since TOAA/writer allowed it to happen.

To me, that's not a valid way to debate, and it that's what this debate has come down to, then I will respectfully withdraw.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The thing is CD,
LT didn't make a decision that lead to She-Hulk changing his mind.

LT was judging the prime Multiverse,
and then he allowed She-Hulk to make a case for the prime Multiverse.

The LT is not a cosmic tyrant,
the LT is a cosmic judge,
and as such many times he hears a case before deciding on it.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/887226_ltbackzz1.jpg

LT probably knew the decision he would make,
but it's a comic book story friend,
and in order to give it substance that remotely relates to us,
there has to be room for depth in the writing.

I know he's not a cosmic tyrant. However, if he knows all, then having someone make a case for anything is pointless because he already knows what the best outcome is regardless of what anyone says. So we can say that She Hulk had no bearing on the LT's outcome and he was just there to amuse her or himself.

starlock

The answer is No!

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

But the ban obviously was still kept in play. As in the Rune arc, the LT himself tells SS that someone is violating his ban on the IG. Whether it was from another multiverse or not does not matter since the ruling was on the IG itself, not on the multiverse.
Already told you the Soul Gem specifically stated it was waiting for Rune,
because it knew the ban on the IG would not work on a being from another Multiverse.

Besides that that's the only possible explanation,
it was stated on panel by the Soul gem it was waiting for Rune.

This may not make sense to whoever, but ... that's the story.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Also, in the Illuminati, the ban was mentioned. Like you said earlier about the end of the Infinity War, the writers wouldn't have mentioned it unless it was significant. Something that's significant doesn't get retconned off panel.
The difference is, at the end of Infinity War (1992)
Eternity literally referenced TOAA as the one that placed the second restriction.

While in Illuminati (2007)
the ban is mentioned, and the characters act like they could care less about it.

Reed: "and I say to him, says who?"

Namor: "Exactly"

Then the ban is forgotten and never even alluded to again.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Stating that something was retconned off panel doesn't work, because that opens up way too much stuff to deal with. I could just as easily say that TOAA/writer retconned the IG off panel to in fact be superior to the LT. That's the reason why his ban can be superceded. After all, TOAA/writer has no problem making a "weapon" more powerful than the LT (HOTI).
But .. it was TOAA who placed the restriction on the Gems,
so, it's actually TOAA's ruling being superceded,
and well ... that's impossible unless it's another OAA from another story doing it.

But considering your theory:

I must disagree, because SS told the LT I know you can defeat this creature,
and the LT acknowledged that as fact,
and Silver Surfer also curbstomped Rune/IG afterwards,
so the theory doesn't fit, cause it leads to, Silver Surfer > LT.

The explanation given in the story not only makes more sense,
but is the canon story as well.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

If we attributed everything to "it happened because TOAA/writer wanted it to be that way", that would mean every incident of PIS would be valid in an argument, because it was the will of TOAA/writer. So Spiderman vs Firelord, Black Panther's cosmic armbar on the Surfer, Storm "shattering" Stardust, etc. can all be used in a debate since TOAA/writer allowed it to happen.

To me, that's not a valid way to debate,
and it that's what this debate has come down to,
then I will respectfully withdraw.
You do what you gotta do good friend.

For the record though:

In the Rune arc, there was a clear reasoning behind the IG re-assembling,
I'm with ya, I don't really like it, it borders on pis, but that's the story.

In the Illuminati arc, imo, it's evident the ban was either retconned,
or made inconsequential for the sake of making another story involving the IG.

Meh, perhaps we'll get some quality info in the next IG arc,
although it's a 'What If' .. so maybe not.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

I know he's not a cosmic tyrant. However, if he knows all, then having someone make a case for anything is pointless because he already knows what the best outcome is regardless of what anyone says. So we can say that She Hulk had no bearing on the LT's outcome and he was just there to amuse her or himself.
That's cool, your opinion is smooth,
but the on panel story is that She Hulk debated with the LT in a cosmic court session,
she was the prime Multiverse's lawyer, and the LT ruled in her favor.

And yes, I'm sure the LT knew the outcome,
just like he knew Warlock would obey his ruling.

But if the LT was written as the omniscient Cosmic God he is all the time,
that would be some truly boring crap to read,
this is why all Cosmic uber related stories have some form of pis,
otherwise, the story would end in three pages:

Like:

Page 1. Uber X arrives, and already knows everything.
Page 2. So uber X waves his hand.
Page 3. Uber X does his job and leaves.

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
Already told you the Soul Gem specifically stated it was waiting for Rune,
because it knew the ban on the IG would not work on a being from another Multiverse.

Besides that that's the only possible explanation,
it was stated on panel by the Soul gem it was waiting for Rune.

This may not make sense to whoever, but ... that's the story.

It's speculation. The Soul Gem never said why it was waiting for Rune since the beginning. If you recall, once all the gems were brought together, they had no problem activating. That's how the LT felt it's power in the first place. The only reason it was stated why the gem wanted Rune to go back to the Ultraverse was so Rune could take revenge on his enemies.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The difference is, at the end of Infinity War (1992)
Eternity literally referenced TOAA as the one that placed the second restriction.

While in Illuminati (2007)
the ban is mentioned, and the characters act like they could care less about it.

Reed: "and I say to him, says who?"

Namor: "Exactly"

Then the ban is forgotten and never even alluded to again.

Which means what? The last time Reed dealt with the IG in the Infinity War, the ban was removed. Reed wasn't present when Eternity let the Watch know the ban went into effect again.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But .. it was TOAA who placed the restriction on the Gems,
so, it's actually TOAA's ruling being superceded,
and well ... that's impossible unless it's another OAA from another story doing it.

But considering your theory:

I must disagree, because SS told the LT I know you can defeat this creature,
and the LT acknowledged that as fact,
and Silver Surfer also curbstomped Rune/IG afterwards,
so the theory doesn't fit, cause it leads to, Silver Surfer > LT.

The explanation given in the story not only makes more sense,
but is the canon story as well..

The problem is SS didn't curbstomp Rune/IG. SS shot Rune's hand off, and it fell into the Ultraverse. It also needs to be noted that this wasn't the typical "person possesses the IG" incident. The Soul Gem and Rune were actually struggling for control of Rune's body. Not necessarily the best way to utilize the gems.

As for the restriction, if TOAA was to remove it, then he would have gone through the LT to do it, since that's how the restriction was implimented and removed the first time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You do what you gotta do good friend.

For the record though:

In the Rune arc, there was a clear reasoning behind the IG re-assembling,
I'm with ya, I don't really like it, it borders on pis, but that's the story.

In the Illuminati arc, imo, it's evident the ban was either retconned,
or made inconsequential for the sake of making another story involving the IG.

Meh, perhaps we'll get some quality info in the next IG arc,
although it's a 'What If' .. so maybe not.

Yeah, I don't think that's going to clear anything up.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's cool, your opinion is smooth,
but the on panel story is that She Hulk debated with the LT in a cosmic court session,
she was the prime Multiverse's lawyer, and the LT ruled in her favor.

And yes, I'm sure the LT knew the outcome,
just like he knew Warlock would obey his ruling.

But if the LT was written as the omniscient Cosmic God he is all the time,
that would be some truly boring crap to read,
this is why all Cosmic uber related stories have some form of pis,
otherwise, the story would end in three pages:

Like:

Page 1. Uber X arrives, and already knows everything.
Page 2. So uber X waves his hand.
Page 3. Uber X does his job and leaves.

I agree it would be very boring. That's why it doesn't make sense to have any omniscient characters, especially the cosmic judge.

Knowsbleed33

LT one-shots the IG. Nothing to suggest otherwise.

Debate over.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
LT one-shots the IG. Nothing to suggest otherwise.

Debate over. Yes,Im afraid there is. If it were that easy then the Lt would have just done it and not waited for Warlock to willingly hand over the gems.

Knowsbleed33

He already one-shotted the glove by ruling the gems can't work in unison. I don't see how that can be argued against.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He already one-shotted the glove by ruling the gems can't work in unison. I don't see how that can be argued against. After he handed them over.....what arent you getting?

Knowsbleed33

What difference do you feel that makes? Prior to that the LT undid what Warlock did with a gesture of his hands. That's called pwning.

During the IG storyline LT said he would not act because Thanos wasn't going against the natural order. That sounds to me like the LT never considered the IG to be a threat or did he ever once regard the IG with worry or concern. The very fact that he demonstrated the power over the IG speaks volumes to me.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
What difference do you feel that makes? Prior to that the LT undid what Warlock did with a gesture of his hands. That's called pwning.

During the IG storyline LT said he would not act because Thanos wasn't going against the natural order. That sounds to me like the LT never considered the IG to be a threat or did he ever once regard the IG with worry or concern. The very fact that he demonstrated the power over the IG speaks volumes to me. Did you miss the comment about destroying reality had warlock not decided to hand over the gems?

No way he can oneshot him. Had he been able there would have been no need to even discuss it.

Knowsbleed33

What difference would that make when it was made clear the LT could undo anything the IG did?

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

It's speculation.
The Soul Gem never said why it was waiting for Rune since the beginning. If you recall, once all the gems were brought together, they had no problem activating.

That's how the LT felt it's power in the first place.
"Speculation?"

My friend, the LT specifically stated that he could NOT act,
because Rune was from another Reality. (Multiverse)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/891015_R1.jpg
Originally posted by celestialdemon

The only reason it was stated why the gem wanted Rune to go back to the Ultraverse
was so Rune could take revenge on his enemies.
So, you believe the Soul Gem was waiting for Rune since the dawn of the Universe,
so Rune could get revenge on his enemies?

I'm not gonna throw in a smilie cause I respect you as a true debating peer,
but, you gotta be chuckling with me on that one.

But seriously CD, that was the Soul Gem trying to trick Rune,
because the Soul Gem was just trying to haul ass out of the prime reality as fast as possible,
this is why when Rune tried to stay IN the prime Multiverse,
(instead of going on a revenge binge in his reality as you're suggesting)
the Soul Gem began struggling for control,
because the Soul Gem knew, if it did stay, not only would it had been defeated,
but more importantly, it's main objective would've been lost.

That objective, (destiny actually) was to form Nemesis.

Proof:

Rune wants to stay in the prime Multiverse:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/891047_R2.jpg

Soul Gem let's it be known,
NOT Rune,
but it (Gem) is the one that wants to leave & enter another reality,
in fact, it (Gem) clearly states, that Rune is only transportation:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/891048_R3.jpg

The Soul Gem could care less about Rune and his enemies.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Which means what?
The last time Reed dealt with the IG in the Infinity War, the ban was removed.
Reed wasn't present when Eternity let the Watch know the ban went into effect again.
Which means Reed knew who put the restrictions on the IG to begin with, (Infinity War)
so why would the smartest man in Marvel not be able to put 1 & 1 together?

Heck, Black Bolt wasn't part of Infinity War in any sense of the word,
and he knew, so how did BB know, and not Reed,
Reed, who's mind was used by the Alien Entity prior (06')
to re-create the entire Marvel Universe from scratch?

If there's anyone who would know, it would be Reed. smile

This why when Bendis had Reed ask: "Says who"
and had Namor reply: "Exactly"

It was obviously imo, a way to let us (the readers) know,
that restriction (Starlin's) no longer applies to this story's OAA. (Bendis)
Originally posted by celestialdemon

The problem is SS didn't curbstomp Rune/IG.
SS shot Rune's hand off, and it fell into the Ultraverse.
Actually, it was the Soul Gem that opened the rift into the Ultraverse,
so they could escape. But you're right in the way Rune lost the IG.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

It also needs to be noted that this wasn't the typical "person possesses the IG" incident. The Soul Gem and Rune were actually struggling for control of Rune's body. Not necessarily the best way to utilize the gems.
True.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

As for the restriction, if TOAA was to remove it, then he would have gone through the LT to do it, since that's how the restriction was implimented and removed the first time.
TOAA doesn't need to follow any protocol to do anything.

TOAA can simply write a story, and that's that.

I mean,
look how easy it was for TOAA to make a story where the LT's ruling is in-affective:

Yes, bring in Rune, he's from another Multiverse,
so the restriction doesn't apply to him,
and that's that like I said.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

I agree it would be very boring.
That's why it doesn't make sense to have any omniscient characters,
especially the cosmic judge.
Portraying omniscience without causing stagnation in a story isn't easy,
so yea, I agree.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
What difference would that make when it was made clear the LT could undo anything the IG did? The point is that the Lt cant oneshot him. You dont destroy reality when you can easily oneshot someone.

Knowsbleed33

Nothing that happened indicated otherwise, you're speculating.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Nothing that happened indicated otherwise, you're speculating. You are speculating that he can oneshot him.

Mr Master

Originally posted by quanchi112

If it were that easy

then the Lt would have just done it

and not waited for Warlock to willingly hand over the gems.
Originally posted by Mr Master

Warlock had just saved the universe and thought he was deserving of the IG.

LT gave him a chance to give up his power.

It doesn't mean he couldn't have taken it away one shot style.

In the past, he's given people chances to rectify problems before he takes action.
Originally posted by quanchi112

You dont destroy reality when you can easily oneshot someone.
My friend, the LT can destroy Reality in a one shot,
heck if the UN can, most definitely the LT can.

Now,
if the LT one shots Warlock,
it's quite conceivable that the surrounding reality will be destroyed as well,
so we can look at it both ways.

It may take one shot, or more,
but in both scenarios the reality around can be sundered
from the reverberations/feedback/spillage of energy/heck, the attack itself,
I can go on.

Still my point is, just because the LT said the D-of-M reality would be destroyed,
doesn't mean he's talking about a major battle,
it could just be from LT attacking Warlock. (which is a confrontation)

Ubers at this level don't have prolonged battles,
remember Thanos/IG vs Eternity?

One shot ftw.

LT vs Slorioth?

One shot ftw.

Knowsbleed33

No, i'm using what we've seen on panel as a reference. The LT was never concerned about the IG, he demonstrated he had power over it. Him not taking down Warlock when he had it was a choice. He didn't say he couldn't do it, he simply chose not to.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

Warlock had just saved the universe and thought he was deserving of the IG.

LT gave him a chance to give up his power.

It doesn't mean he couldn't have taken it away one shot style.

In the past, he's given people chances to rectify problems before he takes action.
yes

quanchi112

Originally posted by Mr Master
My friend, the LT can destroy Reality in a one shot,
heck if the UN can, most definitely the LT can.

Now,
if the LT one shots Warlock,
it's quite conceivable that the surrounding reality will be destroyed as well,
so we can look at it both ways.

It may take one shot, or more,
but in both scenarios the reality around can be sundered
from the reverberations/feedback/spillage of energy/heck, the attack itself,
I can go on.

Still my point is, just because the LT said the D-of-M reality would be destroyed,
doesn't mean he's talking about a major battle,
it could just be from LT attacking Warlock. (which is a confrontation)

Ubers at this level don't have prolonged battles,
remember Thanos/IG vs Eternity?

One shot ftw.

LT vs Slorioth?

One shot ftw. I would assume that the Lt could if the un could but thats just my and your opinion.

The Lt easily undid what warlock did with the ig. Why does he have to destroy reality to take the ig from Warlock? Thanos didnt destroy reality when he defeated Eternity. We dont know how many shots it took because it was just a huge explosion and we couldnt see what was happening.

If the Lt wanted the gems why wouldnt he just take them?

Sayin he coul doneshot the ig is pure speculation.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
No, i'm using what we've seen on panel as a reference. The LT was never concerned about the IG, he demonstrated he had power over it. Him not taking down Warlock when he had it was a choice. He didn't say he couldn't do it, he simply chose not to. Warlock contested his power and reality would have been destroyed had they got it on. Oneshotting the ig is pure speculation. I dont know how anyone could disagree.

Knowsbleed33

You're basing your arguement on that if LT wanted to take the IG away from Warlock reality would be destroyed?

That proves nothing. That just proves that in the LT's opinion the collateral damage would've been too great. It doesn't prove he couldn't have one-shotted Warlock if he wanted to.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
You're basing your arguement on that if LT wanted to take the IG away from Warlock reality would be destroyed?

That proves nothing. That just proves that in the LT's opinion the collateral damage would've been too great. It doesn't prove he couldn't have one-shotted Warlock if he wanted to. I dont think he could have while you think he could have. I agree that the Lt is more powerful,but not enough for a oneshot. None of our opinions are changing.

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
"Speculation?"

My friend, the LT specifically stated that he could NOT act,
because Rune was from another Reality. (Multiverse)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/891015_R1.jpg

Yet they were still in 616, so it doesn't matter who was trying to use the IG. It still worked.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"So, you believe the Soul Gem was waiting for Rune since the dawn of the Universe,
so Rune could get revenge on his enemies?

I'm not gonna throw in a smilie cause I respect you as a true debating peer,
but, you gotta be chuckling with me on that one.

But seriously CD, that was the Soul Gem trying to trick Rune,
because the Soul Gem was just trying to haul ass out of the prime reality as fast as possible,
this is why when Rune tried to stay IN the prime Multiverse,
(instead of going on a revenge binge in his reality as you're suggesting)
the Soul Gem began struggling for control,
because the Soul Gem knew, if it did stay, not only would it had been defeated,
but more importantly, it's main objective would've been lost.

That objective, (destiny actually) was to form Nemesis.

Proof:

Rune wants to stay in the prime Multiverse:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/891047_R2.jpg

Soul Gem let's it be known,
NOT Rune,
but it (Gem) is the one that wants to leave & enter another reality,
in fact, it (Gem) clearly states, that Rune is only transportation:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/891048_R3.jpg

The Soul Gem could care less about Rune and his enemies.

You misunderstood me. I don't believe that the Soul Gem waited for Rune so he could get revenge on his enemies. I know it's reason was to create Nemesis. The Soul Gem was using that reason just to entice Rune to go back into the Ultraverse.

My argument was the Soul Gem was not trying to go into the Ultraverse so that the IG would work, as you originally suggested. As we saw, it worked fine in 616.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Which means Reed knew who put the restrictions on the IG to begin with, (Infinity War)
so why would the smartest man in Marvel not be able to put 1 & 1 together?

Heck, Black Bolt wasn't part of Infinity War in any sense of the word,
and he knew, so how did BB know, and not Reed,
Reed, who's mind was used by the Alien Entity prior (06')
to re-create the entire Marvel Universe from scratch?

If there's anyone who would know, it would be Reed. smile

This why when Bendis had Reed ask: "Says who"
and had Namor reply: "Exactly"

It was obviously imo, a way to let us (the readers) know,
that restriction (Starlin's) no longer applies to this story's OAA. (Bendis)

Which, like you said, is your opinion until Marvel clearly states on panel that the ban has been lifted. The Watcher made no mention of the ban being lifted, and he would know more than anyone else if that were the case.

If you go by on panel evidence, we have more proof showing the IG working despite the LT's ruling rather than it not working.

Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA doesn't need to follow any protocol to do anything.

TOAA can simply write a story, and that's that.

I mean,
look how easy it was for TOAA to make a story where the LT's ruling is in-affective:

Yes, bring in Rune, he's from another Multiverse,
so the restriction doesn't apply to him,
and that's that like I said.

True, but for the sake of a debate on this forum, we go by evidence. On panel evidence doesn't show the LT ever removing the ban and also shows the IG working even when the LT mentioned the ban.

Until it is mentioned on panel, we can only speculate that it has been.

Mr Master

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Yet they were still in 616,
so it doesn't matter who was trying to use the IG. It still worked.
So, you're going to ignore what the LT said? sad

Did the LT not say that the wielder was from another Reality?

Did the LT not say he could not act because of this?
Originally posted by celestialdemon

You misunderstood me. I don't believe that the Soul Gem waited for Rune so he could get revenge on his enemies. I know it's reason was to create Nemesis. The Soul Gem was using that reason just to entice Rune to go back into the Ultraverse.

My argument was the Soul Gem was not trying to go into the Ultraverse
so that the IG would work,

as you originally suggested. As we saw, it worked fine in 616.
You said in the earlier pages you know my debating style,
well, there's one thing I don't like and you should know this,
having my statements twisted.

I have never said that, I have never even alluded to that idea.

Be thorough true debater.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Which, like you said,
is your opinion until Marvel clearly states on panel that the ban has been lifted.
The Watcher made no mention of the ban being lifted,
and he would know more than anyone else if that were the case.
Again,
Reed's mind was used to create the entire Marvel Universe including the Watchers.

If anyone would know, it would be Reed.

Beyond that, the ban was obviously lifted off panel, or retconned,
otherwise, how the heck did the Illuminati go against what TOAA ordered in Infinity War?
Originally posted by celestialdemon

If you go by on panel evidence,
we have more proof showing the IG working
despite the LT's ruling rather than it not working.
negative.

There's been two arcs for each:

Infinity War and the Infinity Crusade (restriction on the IG)

Rune arc, and Illuminati (restriction inconsequential)

Although there was a reason in the Rune case,
Illuminati has no real answer other than the choices I gave.
Originally posted by celestialdemon

True, but for the sake of a debate on this forum, we go by evidence.
I didn't know that. stick out tongue

Originally posted by celestialdemon

On panel evidence doesn't show the LT ever removing the ban
and also shows the IG working even when the LT mentioned the ban.
Nice, but you're still mentioning LT referencing the ban,
but you're ignoring LT giving a reason why it was possible.

I'm 100% confident,
that the ONLY reason Rune was able to re-unite the Gems,
was because he was from another Multiverse.

In fact, as I posted the proof already,
LT couldn't even attack Rune because of this,
he says it himself:

"The nature of the disturbance (Rune) is beyond this reality,
I must ask him for help"
Originally posted by celestialdemon

Until it is mentioned on panel, we can only speculate that it has been.
I'll agree it hasn't been specifically shown on panel,
but the intricacies of the arcs where the ban is over-written speaks for itself imo.

Illuminati primarily, because the Rune affair gave a reason.

celestialdemon

Originally posted by Mr Master
So, you're going to ignore what the LT said? sad

Did the LT not say that the wielder was from another Reality?

Did the LT not say he could not act because of this?

He said Rune was from another reality, but they were still in the 616. If his ruling over the IG was so absolute, then it wouldn't depend on the user.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You said in the earlier pages you know my debating style,
well, there's one thing I don't like and you should know this,
having my statements twisted.

I have never said that, I have never even alluded to that idea.

Be thorough true debater.

It sure sounded like it when you earlier said this:
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yes.

Rune is from another Multiverse,
apparently, the LT's judgement only catered to residents of the Prime Multiverse,
this is why the Soul Gem was dying to get out of the Prime Multiverse,
and return to Rune's.

If I misunderstood, I apologize. Just know that I was not trying to twist your words.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Again,
Reed's mind was used to create the entire Marvel Universe including the Watchers.

If anyone would know, it would be Reed.

Beyond that, the ban was obviously lifted off panel, or retconned,
otherwise, how the heck did the Illuminati go against what TOAA ordered in Infinity War?

It could have been because with the IG on, Reed started to get the same God complex that every other IG user has had.

Originally posted by Mr Master
negative.

There's been two arcs for each:

Infinity War and the Infinity Crusade (restriction on the IG)

Rune arc, and Illuminati (restriction inconsequential)

Although there was a reason in the Rune case,
Illuminati has no real answer other than the choices I gave.

In both the Infinity War and Crusade, the ban was only mentioned, never tested. Even in War, only 5 gems were brought together, not all 6. We don't know what would have happened then.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nice, but you're still mentioning LT referencing the ban,
but you're ignoring LT giving a reason why it was possible.

I'm 100% confident,
that the ONLY reason Rune was able to re-unite the Gems,
was because he was from another Multiverse.

In fact, as I posted the proof already,
LT couldn't even attack Rune because of this,
he says it himself:

"The nature of the disturbance (Rune) is beyond this reality,
I must ask him for help"

The LT couldn't interfere with Rune, because he has no authority over him. That's fine. However, Rune was trying to use IG, which is a 616 artifact. If the LT's power over the IG is absolute, then it shouldn't work with anyone, because the ban is on the IG itself, not the users.