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1. Stass Allie and Ali Gallia
2. Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti
3. ROTJ Luke and ROTS Vader
4. ROTS Vader and ROTS Obi-Wan
5. ROTS Sidous and ROTS Vader
6. OT Sidious and OT Vader
7. OT Sidious and Galen Marek
Takes place in the Valley of the Jedi each combatant gets full rest.

They clear this.

clear it. With that team you need a NJO or LOTF luke to make it interesting.

Originally posted by truejedi
clear it. With that team you need a NJO or LOTF luke to make it interesting.
Crap I knew I forgot something new list
1. Stass Allie and Ali Gallia
2. Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti
3. ROTJ Luke and ROTS Vader
4. ROTS Vader and ROTS Obi-Wan
5. ROTS Sidous and ROTS Vader
6. OT Sidious and OT Vader
7. OT Sidious and Galen Marek
8. NJO Luke

clear it. toss-up at 8 though.

Originally posted by truejedi
clear it. toss-up at 8 though.

Hahaha. No. They will likely lose at 7.

Edit: Actually, they could lose at 6. And NJO Luke is not more powerful than Marek and the Emperor combined.

I doubt they would lose at 6. Yoda or Windu can hold their own against the Emperor long enough until the other one beat vader. Then together they can beat Sidious. As far as 7 goes, the same could happen since Marek isn't good enough in the lightsaber in order to think this 2 foes. As for NJO Luke is hard to say. I guess he could do it all out, however I am not so sure if he could take them using only the lightsaber.

What's the point of these? Why even have 1-4?

5 and 6 will be hard. 7 not so much.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
I doubt they would lose at 6. Yoda or Windu can hold their own against the Emperor long enough until the other one beat vader.

Hold their own? Absolutely, but neither of them is powerful enough to defeat Palpatine circa the Original Trilogy on their own. And while Windu is powerful enough to yield a victory against Vader in a lightsaber duel, the Dark Lord is far more powerful in the Force.



Assuming neither of them crush Windu with the Force and deposit him into the nearest trash recepticle.



The lightsaber isn't necessarily the decisive tool in this fight. Dooku was able to crush Obi-Wan Kenobi with the Force even when he was on the verge of desperation and exhaustion while simultaneously fighting Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine disarms Yoda, and hurls General Kota across the room when he attacked the Emperor with a lightsaber. And Marek is more powerful than Vader who, in turn, is more powerful than Mace.



He can if he blitzes Windu immediately and would then defeat Yoda after a considerable fight.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
1. Stass Allie and Ali Gallia
2. Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti
3. ROTJ Luke and ROTS Vader
4. ROTS Vader and ROTS Obi-Wan
5. ROTS Sidous and ROTS Vader
6. OT Sidious and OT Vader
7. OT Sidious and Galen Marek
Takes place in the Valley of the Jedi each combatant gets full rest.

If ROTS Yoda fights Vader, he destoys vader, whereas Palpatine beats Mace. The question is who will die first, Vader or Mace. However, if Yoda fights Sidious and Mace fights Vader, the only chance the Jedi have are with a lightsaber. I'm not too sure what Vader can do to Mace with the force that Mace cannot handle using his Vaapad, but Palpatine should beat Yoda eventually. More than likely they die at 6. If not, they die at 7.

I disagree. That was a draw- until Anakin stepped in. The saber duel, at least, was a win on Mace's part. So let's say, instead: Palpatine beats Mace if he can keep range. I'm questioning my assumption that Palpatine was holding back in the Saber portion of the duel. The novel certainly seems to indicate that with Vaapad, Mace was Palpatine's equal, and with Shatterpoint, potentially his superior. (During close combat)

First, the burden of proof is with you when you say that OT Sidious is miles ahead from ROTS. In fact, I recall Bail Organa saying that the last time he saw similar feats to Marek's ones was during the CW, which mean he is at max as strong as yoda (and I think it's generally accepted that yoda>marek in the force). So, if marek can stop OT sidious' lightning with his bare hands, why wouldn't yoda be able to do the same? Basicly sheer force power alone wouldn't be enough to win the fight against yoda, and sidious did got physically weaker, stated by the Dark Side Sourcerbook if I am not wrong. As far as Vader being FAR away from Windu, you are still to show me Vader's feats far surpassing Windu's ones, as holding hundreds of rocks with the force, using TK to let a ship faling in GG's head (obsession) or landing six blows in vastor before he could blink (and this without even using CW cartoons), tell me how this puts mace FAR behind vader. Besides, vader didn't even use the force to beat maul, why would be able to do that against some stronger in the force?



The same way Sidious did against him in ROTS?



First, Obi-wan defences were broken by dooku mastery of lightsaber before he used the force, so he didn't exactly put the optimal force defence, second yoda was disarmed because he had just jumped to sidious pod and Kota is MILES away from Sidious (he was not even a council member). Nonetheless, the situations are different. Galen can't use force lightning on windu unless he wants it reflected back to his face. How will he gonna beat him, throwing stuff at him? Mace isn't Mister Darth "I never run" Vader, he can dodge whatever he throws at him. TK? Mace himself stated that Vastor's power were on the level of yoda's one (and don't bring nick's statement, windu's one has much more credibility) yet Vastor couldn't just overpower him with his TK. So, what gonna happen? Windu will be all over galen with his purple saber and eventually will kill him. Then Sidious lose.



That's what I said.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
First, the burden of proof is with you when you say that OT Sidious is miles ahead from ROTS.

I did not say nor insinuate that the Emperor of the original trilogy is "miles" ahead of the Emperor of the prequel trilogy.

That is a baseless assumption.



You say that almost as if Bail Organa is an omniscient source or that I am contesting that opinion. That Organa hasn't seen feats such as those displayed by Galen Marek does nothing to undermine my point. And was Organa present for Marek's manipulation of an Imperial Star Destroyer? And did he mention that statement after Marek battled the Emperor?



We saw what happened how much pain and energy it took for Yoda to perform the feat twenty years earlier.

Moreover, keep the following in mind: according to the official databank, Marek "was no match for the power of Darth Sidious" and the novelization, comic, and databank confirm that Marek entered a state of oneness with the Force that resulted in his death. Prove that Yoda can or will do the same. Meanwhile, Sidious shrugged off a colossal explosion without injury.



Palpatine, at this point, is more powerful and more skilled in the Force. He was already equal to Yoda twenty years before he "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from a million worlds" and "studied the Force in all its aspects."

Sidious was growing physically frail due to the strength of the dark side within him, but keep in mind: he shrugged off an explosion that caused colossal visual damage to the Death Star.



The narrator of Coruscant Nights confirmed that Vader was far more powerful than Kar Vastor who, in turn, was better than Windu "on best day."



Yes. And I suppose since Darth Vader hurled the Emperor down a reactor core, he would automatically be able to do so on every occasion. Please. That line of thought is ridiculous. Palpatine nearly killed Windu from Force lightning while being on his ass, unarmed, and being blasted in the face with his own lightning. If he chose to attack Windu with the Force, he would demonstrably be able to defeat him.



No, he didn't. Dooku disengaged and hurled Obi-Wan away, twice.



Palpatine blasted Yoda over a second later. Yoda had enough time to land on the pod and brandish his saber in a threatening fashion before Sidious did anything. Given light-speed reactions yielded by most Jedi, is it your contention that Yoda -- who can deflect dozens upon dozens of blaster bolts in ridiculous time -- requires a full second to gain his bearings when he's not being attacked?



False premise. Being a council member does not mean you're the pinnacle of Jedi combat. Anakin Skywalker wasn't on the council until Palpatine forced him down Windu's throat. Keep in mind that Kota is one of a very small group capable of deflecting Force lightning without a lightsaber, and casually (something Windu has never demonstrated).



When Mace is submerged in Vaapad and is prepared. He's not going to be necessarily either at the beginning of this fight.



False premise. So were Roan Shryne, Kento Marek, Galen Marek, and Luke Skywalker, yet they were all battered at various points by telekinetic storms conjured by Darth Vader.



And Vader, according to Coruscant Nights, is stronger than Vastor by a considerable amount. And he only compares Yoda and Skywalker to Vastor, not that Vastor is somehow equal to them.



And if I may say so, you've done a terrible job of proving it. Keep your conclusions to items that have factual basis. I'm not interested in your personal opinion.

Windu never held hundreds of rocks in the air or anything like that in shatterpoint. He caused a landslide to happen though it was going to happen either way but he wanted to speed it up so it really isn't that uber of a feat.

For the record Kota not being on the council is should not be a knock on his skills. Cin Drallig wasn't on the council yet he was the battlemaster of the jedi temple and the former battlemaster Anoon Bondara whose technical skill is better then Yoda's wasn't on the council. Hell Anakin killed Dooku but was put on the council for a special reason that had nothing to do with his power,skills, wisdom,etc.

Good.



He isn't the omniscient narrator but he is nonetheless a credible source. Anyway, what's your point, are you trying to prove that marek>yoda in the force?



I didn't said it was easy for yoda, but he did stop sidious' lightning and in the end reflected it back, making an explosion that affected both of them. And the official databank's quote is credible in the way that states that sidious>marek. However, marek did stop sidious' lightning without the help of his lightsaber. And if you see the cut scene from the video game you see that marek blasted himself in order to save the senators, trying to kill the emperor, vader and the stormtroopers. That doesn't mean that he need to enter in that state of oneness in order to stop sidious' lightning, which he was not when he put himself between kota and sidious, as we clearly see in the cut scene.



I didn't deny that he was more powerful. What I contested was a big boost from his ROTS incarnation. And I didn't say he was weak, just that he grow weaker, even though that point could have easily corrected by using the force to augument his physical abilities.



But wasn't nick rostu who stated that in Jedi Twilight, after feeling the full power of vader? Also, doesn't that happen just 3 months after ROTS? So, basicly this Vader would be almost as strong as Anakin in ROTS. So, ROTS Anakin is suppose to be stronger in the force then Vastor who windu said that was as strong as yoda? It's obvious that nick's statement was inaccurate.



Is that suppose to be an analogy? Because if it was it was a very bad one. Vader didn't grab Sidious head on and throw him to the reactor core so the comparisson is meaningless. And palpatine maybe nealy killed windu with force lightning, but the true is that this same force lightning was throwed back to him. The point here is that sidious had the force as an option and actually used it when he used his force lightning, and in the end, he lost. So, as I said, the burden of proof is with you in order to show me that Sidious could have ended the duel with a flick of his wrist.



Yes he did. And I didn't deny that dooku owned him with the force.



Don't blame me for movie timing. Maul had lightning fast reaction as well and see how obi-wan slayed him. Anyway, if yoda had not landed in the pod I believe he could have stopped the lightning with the saber. Hell, windu was extremely close to sidious and was fast and strong enough to stop the attack with the lightsaber, so I think that it's obvious that the explanation for yoda to lose his saber was arrival to the battle scene with an enourmous force jump.



Except from the fact that vader STATED that Shaak Ti, as a council member, was superior to Kota, which makes my premise not-so-false. And he deflected the lightning of a neophyte SK...



What's the point here? Mace catches lightning with the saber, mace submerges in vaadpad, marge deflects lightning. It doesn't take more then a blink of an eye. Mace submerged himself back into the vaadpad in the instant sidious attack him with the lightning, so it's not something that difficult (or slow) to achieve.



Why is that a false premise? You are the one using a fallacy for the second time, the fallacy of the analogy. None of this jedi, when they fought vader, was near the level of windu in mastery of the force or displays of agility (see CW as an example).



According to who? Nick Rostu? And he does compare them in order to show their similarity in power. Why do you think he would do that? Show me other explanation that doesn't imply that windu was saying that vastor wasn't close to them in power. The burden of proof is with you.



Neither I am interested in yours. I did a terrible job proving my points? Look at yours then. What did you prove?

Anyway, I have to rest now (it's late where I live) but since I know you will want to continue the debate, tomorrow we end this.

EDIT
oh screw it, i'm not having the sidious argument again.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Good.

In the future, don't pull misleading statements out of your ass to try to twist my point.



Jesus H. Christ, you're on a roll. I'm not going to tell you again: stop pulling misleading statements out of your ass to try to twist my point. I simply disagreed with your chosen logic, which is characteristically horrendous.



He demonstrated enormous difficulty holding an inferior Palpatine's lightning at bay. It's your burden to prove that he could do the same without entering a state of oneness with the Force.



Another false premise. It said that he didn't "even bother fighting back," being no match for Sidious's power, and opened himself up to the Force. Given that he held the lightning at bay without visibly struggling as much as Yoda did (even though the novelization indicates he was in a great deal of physical pain), he was building up the power to unleash in the explosion, giving him relative immunity for the Force lightning. The only alternative is that Marek is as powerful (if not more powerful) than Yoda, which is the very point you've been adamantly denying.



He was in a bad physical state due to the toll that the dark side was taking on him, forcing him to maintain sustenance from Byss. But he still shrugged off an immense explosion.



It was brought up by the narrator and then confirmed by Rostu. Not that it matters, since you're willing to take Bail Organa at his word -- "a credible source" -- you have no choice but to do the same with Nick Rostu, since, unlike Organa, he actually has Force sensitivity.



It wasn't, and if you'd read Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, Vader was poised at a "significant increase" in his abilities just prior to the invasion of Kashyyyk. Meaning the statement is still valid, I'm still right, and you just fell into a gaping logic hole.



Stop being intentionally dense. Sidious was obviously confident that he could defeat Windu with lightsaber abilities and used the Force only when he had no alternative, and despite being in an inferior position, he still nearly killed Windu. Likewise, keep in mind that the weakness Sidious claimed was feigned. He could have kept going. Unlike Windu. So Sidious nearly killed Windu with Force lightning from an inferior position and during a time when he was under great physical pain.



Disengaging blades =/= being defeated or knocked back with a lightsaber. Stop pulling misleading statements out of your ass.



Not a valid excuse.



Hubris, given that he spent the past few minutes mocking and taunting Kenobi by casually sending sparks at him with a lightsaber and pacing around like a cat cornering a mouse.



I'm not interested in your opinion, since you haven't proved that Yoda needed that full second to prepare himself.



Windu has the benefit of massing much more than Yoda and possessing natural superior physical strength, as well as a superconducting loop via Vaapad, and lastly, leverage. Yoda had none of these. And I'm still not interested in your opinion.



You amaze me with your inability to reason. That Vader personally considered Shaak Ti to be better than Kota does not mean a damn thing. The fact remains that Anakin Skywalker was among the finest in the order, demonstrably greater than the majority of the Council, and yet was not given a seat. Neither was Count Dooku or Qui-Gon Jinn or Anoon Bondara. Your premise is totally false. Deal with it.



Prove that Starkiller was a neophyte. Hell, Darth Maul was one of the deadliest and most highly trained apprentices in Sith history, and yet even Mighella (who was weak compared to him) managed to bring him to his knees with Force lightning; even from a relatively weak opponent, it is still a powerful technique, and Kota deflected it while laughing.



Ah, yes. Well, since opinions clearly translate to fact, how about this.

Sidious rips the lightsaber out of Windu's hand and breaks his neck instantly. I win!



The movie and novelization > you.

Sidious managed to kill three of the Jedi Order's most "celebrated swordsmen" with blinding speed (the last of which he slayed while crossing blades with Windu) and drove Mace back.

Windu wasn't immersed in Vaapad; it took several seconds. How long does it take to blink your eye?



Except that it took the entire previous minutes of the fight to do it in order to compensate for the Sith Lord's superior speed, agility, and ferociousness. It isn't instant. Period.



You progress from the inability to reason to outright deception. Galen Marek was demonstrably far more powerful than Mace Windu in terms of Force mastery and was still nailed during their confrontations.



He was confronted with Vader and the narrator states that the dark side was far stronger in Vader than with Vastor and said that "even the dim-wattage Force connection" that Rostu possessed could confirm that. He's stronger. Period.



I reaffirmed the idea that you apparently lack the ability to reason and rely on deception, misdirection, and ignorance to try to further your stance. Your opinion was totally crushed and you will not waste my time with any of the aforementioned three traits again. Take your time with the next post or not at all. Raise your game or get off the court.

Am I clear?

Do you know how is this called? Contradiction. I said Yoda>Marek in the force and since Marek can stop OT Sidious' lightning then Yoda can do it as well. This is my premise. You start arg against me when I said Yoda>Marek, then I ask you if you were trying to prove the other way, then you refutes it, thus implying that you as well believe that yoda>marek in the force, and now you are saying that the burden of proof is with ME when I say that Yoda can stop OT Sidious' lightning with his hands? So you are basicly saying that Yoda is stronger in the force then Marek, yet Marek can stop OT Sidious' lightning and Yoda can't... What kind of logic is this? Then I am the one who has horrendous logic... At least I don't contradict myself.



No, that's not the only justification, and you know why? Because you are using an argument that doesn't reflects the reality. Marek did stop Sidious' lightning before he entered in the oneness state, and you can see it clearly in the game cut scene, so you can't use this arg. So, what's the alternative? The alternative is that even though inferior to Sidious in the force department, Marek was still strong enough to hold his lightning with his hands.

"As Juno rescued the Senators, Starkiller confronted the Sith Lords who had been manipulating him for years. Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious. Bombarded by Force lightning, Starkiller did not fight back but instead unleashed all the power of the Force within him, causing a tremendous blast that shattered the Emperor's tower and caused enough of a distraction to allow Eclipse and the Rebel Senators to escape."

This is the quote by the way, and doesn't tell us nothing new, is simply resuming what we saw in the cut scene. But that doesn't change the fact that Marek stopped OT Sidious' lightning with his hands.



As I said before, I never said he was weak.



Oh, but there are an important difference in these situations. Bail Organa doesn't have a jedi master like Mace Windu saying otherwise. So yeah, I have the choice to refute Nick's statement since there are other more credible statement how says other way.



Fair enough, I will drop this point them, even though is stupid in my opinion to believe that someone would have a significant increase in power very few months before being burned and cut alive. And I didn't fall in a gaping logic because I didn't know such statement.



As you said to me before, I reply the same to you, I don't care about your personal opinions. Do you have something to back such statement? Can you prove me that Sidious could have ended Windu with the force and didn't do it due because he was confident in his lightsaber abilities? Anyway, even though he was in an "inferior position", that position didn't exactly decreased the power of sidious' lightning, so your point is irrelevant.



Which misleading statement? I was merely pointing out that Obi-Wan's defences weren't the best at the time due to Dooku's movement. Yet as I said before, I didn't deny Dooku's obvious superiority and ownage with the force.






I will adress the 4 quotes at the same time because I did 1 arg and the fact that you split it just to try to refute it is pathetic. Yoda has FORCE-ASSISTED STRENGTH, which allowed him, for example, to carry an huge machine gun during the CW on his back, so even though Windu's physical strength is greater then yoda's one, once he is using the force to augument his physical abilites there are no such problem. So, again, what is my point? Windu at such close range stoped sidious' lightning with his lightsaber. As such, if yoda was on windu's position, he would be able to do the same, because yoda is as fast or even faster then windu (do you want me to prove this as well? god...) and has no strength problem whatsoever due to his enourmous force reserves fulling his physical body as it was prooved when he carried the machine gun for example. So, why did yoda lost his lightsaber? My alternative is that he had just landed on the pod and was not ready to face the lightning. Do you have another?



Vader specifically said to Marek "is time to face someone more powerful, a COUNCIL MEMBER", something like this. He was specifically saying that Kota was not on the level of masters of the council member, so your argument means nothing.



Simple. Few time after beat Kota, SK was owned by Shaak Ti and only an incredible rage attack made him beat her. Later he almost was killed by vader and only proxy saved him. Yet, at his full power sometime later, he was able to beat Vader. So yeah, he was definitely not at full power by the time he beat Kota. And Maul didn't exactly try to defend himself with the force from her attack, so I can even arg that Maul wanted to show her that he could endure the pain of her attack, because even if he couldn't stop her lightning with his hands, he still as his lightsaber to defend himself if he wanted.



Oh no, you lose, and you lose because I wasn't giving an opinion, I was translating what happened between Mace and Sidious, yet YOU are giving you opinion by saying that Sidious could do such thing.




Yet Depa turned into the vaadpad in a blink of an eye in Shatterpoint and Mace turned into the vaadpad in a blink of an eye when Sidious shot his lightning to him.

Are we talking about the Marek who owned Vader or the Marek who almost lost to shaak tii? That Marek, the one who was "nailed" by Vader, didn't exactly showed a superiority to Shaak Tii, who is quite inferior to mace.



So that's a statement from Rostu's point of view. Which means my arg still stands, since Windu has far more credibility then a person with "dim-wattage force connection".



Are you blind? Read my post, you were completly owned. What did you prove? That you know how to use several fallacies in every single post? Just lol...

Anyway, as I know your pride will not allow you to drop it, I will reply to your reply on friday (I have a test thursday)

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Do you know how is this called? Contradiction.

There is no contradiction. You're just ignorant of the application of logic, which isn't my fault.



I said that I didn't believe that Marek was necessarily more powerful than Yoda in the Force. But it is still your burden to prove that he could repulse a more powerful Darth Sidious's lightning when he was in immense visible pain and effort trying to repulse the lightning from an inferior Darth Sidious.



Fact: Yoda struggled and was under considerable visible pain to repulse the Force lightning from Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith.

Fact: Marek did not visibly struggle (though the novelization mentions that he was in remarkable pain, he still held his ground better than Yoda) to repulse the lightning from Darth Sidious circa two years prior to A New Hope.

Fact: The databank and novelization confirm that Marek entered a state of unity with the Force.

Fact: Original trilogy-era Palpatine > prequel trilogy-era Palpatine in Force usage and mastery.

Conclusion: Yoda can't logically repulse the Force lightning to anywhere near the degree that Marek did unless he enters a state of oneness with the Force, which is your burden to prove.



I'm glad we agree that you use horrendous logic.



You're too busy relying on misdirections and deception.



The game cutscene does not disprove that Marek entered a state of oneness with the Force.



Since you're apparently a victim of selective vision: "Bombarded by Force lightning, Starkiller did not fight back but instead unleashed all the power of the Force within him,"



You mentioned physical frailty. It doesn't matter.



Where does Mace Windu say that Darth Vader is not more powerful than Kar Vastor?



Another lie. No you don't. You fell into a trap. You expect us to yield to third party opinions and yet you can disregard them when you please? Wrong. Debating with me requires a single standard.



Yes, you fell. You fell damn hard. I could hear the resounding "thud" all the way in Kentucky.

Thank you for the concession, though. There might be a glimmer of intelligence beyond the cloud of stupidity, dishonesty, and ignorance.



I'm not interested in you carbon-copying my statements and attempting to use them against me. Come up with something original. Now.



I do.

Fact: Darth Sidious is more powerful, by a considerable margin, than Mace Windu.

Fact: Darth Sidious is much faster, more agile, and more ferocious than Mace Windu.

Fact: Darth Sidious managed to threaten Mace Windu's life from a ridiculously compromised position with Force lightning despite the presence of Vaapad.

Conclusion: if Sidious goes in, Force fists a swingin', he's going to barbeque Windu.



You redefine standards of stupidity. I don't know if the retards around the globe are going to crown you king for your legendary obstinancy or if you'll be regarded as "the village idiot" amongst them.

Windu had the following advantages in that situation:

a.) Leverage.
b.) Greater mass.
c.) Greater physical strength.
d.) A lightsaber.
e.) A superconductive loop afforded by Vaapad.

Palpatine? Was on his ass in the corner, without room to navigate, and was being blasted in the face.

Outcome? Sidious feigned defeat to tip Anakin's hand. He could have still gone on, whereas Windu's reserves were noticeably and relatively weaker.



Obi-Wan's Soresu is such that he is able to keep Anakin Skywalker at bay; the same Anakin Skywalker who can penetrate Dooku's own defenses. Dooku disengaged blades and hurled Kenobi across the room, he did not dominate him or disarm him or outmaneuver him with a lightsaber first.



We know.

False premise. Yoda isn't a master of Vaapad or the shatterpoint charism, and is unable to replicate the same superconductive loop.



The idea that the fastest of all Jedi Masters, capable of deflecting dozens of blaster shots from shocktroops known for accuracy and skill, somehow requires a full second to recover from a jump is retarded and without basis. Period.



My argument, in all aspects, means everything.

Your contention was that being a Council member = "TEH UBERZ!" It is provably and demonstrably false and you're making an ass out of yourself for still arguing the point.



That's the point. Maul was superior to Mighella in every way, yet when she electrocuted him, it still brought Darth "I am one of the most highly trained and dangerous Sith apprentices in history" Maul to his knees.



First, Windu believed Depa's skills surpassed his.

Second, stop lying. Windu was trying to immerse himself in Vaapad from the very beginning of the fight, you moron. Read the novelization. It took many, many, many seconds for him to do so.



We're talking about Marek at his prime unless the author specifies differently. And the Marek who was "nailed" by Vader was much stronger than his previous incarnation who battled Shaak Ti. The Marek who was "nailed" by Vader had, some time earlier, manipulated a Star Destroyer with telekinesis.

You apparently have no concept of chronology. Stop being dense.



Your argument doesn't stand, you idiot, since Windu never said "LOLZ KAR VASTOR IS MORE POWAHFULL THAN VADER!"

This is the easiest argument I've ever had.



I read your post, dismantled it, and delivered a brilliantly crushing counterargument rather effortlessly. Modesty aside, you're completely outclassed here.

The Making of Revenge of the Sith says that you need to be "God, Jesus, Pellaeon, Publius, or NEAL SCHON to compete with Gideon."

You aren't any of those five.



I've, once again, proven that perfection really isn't a myth and that it is very foolish to argue with me.

(Unless you're any of the aforementioned five, all of whom I tremble in fear)



Looking forward to your continued efforts in the pioneering of stupidity. Reach for the stars, buddy!

Originally posted by Gideon
The Making of Revenge of the Sith says that you need to be "God, Jesus, Pellaeon, Publius, or NEAL SCHON to compete with Gideon."

I am Jesus...

gideon, having read the novelization, i agree with almost all of your point. i do, however question taking Nick Rostu's viewpoint that Vader was stronger than Vastor. in shatterpoint, there is a statement, i can find it later, don't have that book, that Vastor treated Nick like he wasn't even there, and focused solely on Mace. Rostu even states how that was okay with him, though he felt a bit belittled.

So Vastor never even bothers to focus on Nick, who, had just begun to realize that he had any force potential.

In Jedi Twilight, Vader is focused COMPLETELY on Nick, reading his mind, even overpowering his mind, and inserting images on his head. Nick has also (from early on in the book, and i do have this one, so i'll post the quote tonight when i get home) spent the time since shatterpoint trying to improve and practice his connection to the force.

Of course to Rostu, considering the major differences in the encounters with the two characters, Vader is going to seem much more extremely powerful than Vastor. As i said, i'll look it up tonight, but is the narrator quote you are referring to the one that came in that same paragraph that described rostu's impression? If so, when originally reading that, it came across to me, as describing Rostus viewpoint from an omniscient source, thus proving with a canon source (the narrator) that Rostu really DID feel the way he said he felt, but not necessarily backing up his assessement of Vader's power.

Just a thought.

Why would Vastor need for Rostu to "concentrate" on him in order to sense latent Force energy?

Just to add onto Gideon's point of the Mace vs Sidious lightning situation in rots,even with all the advantages Gideon listed that Mace held, his blade was still being pushed back towards Mace's face. In fact the blade got so close to Mace's face that began he to choke on the ozone of it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Why would Vastor need for Rostu to "concentrate" on him in order to sense latent Force energy?

i admit your question has taken me aback. to me, it seemed obvious that it would make a difference, but i can't think of a single source or scenario to back me up on that one at the moment, so i'll get back to it.

Maybe from twilight, where Vader insinuates that concentrating too hard on finding Jax would tip Jax off that Vader was looking for him. But i bet i can find something better than that.

Here is something else though i found weird. Pg. 161, Vader's voice is referred to as a velvety baritone. WTF? anybody else think velvety baritone when watching the OT?

I don't have to patience to make such a big post and since half your commentaries are sarcams I can short it anyway.

Points to answer:

1) For the cutscenes we see that marek only entered in the oneness state after seeing the stormtroopers attacking the senators.

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=mRK6U9tZxyI

He catches Sidious' lightning at 6m22 and guess what, we only start seeing him entering in the oneness state at 6m42, in which he states for a couple of seconds and them blows himself. All that time he was holding sidious' lightning. So no, he hold his lightning without being in the oneness state. As such, and if you agree that yoda is superior to marek, then you must face that even if sidious got stronger from ROTS to OT, the difference wouldn't be enough to make him overpower yoda with sheer force power. So as I said the burden of proof is still with you.

2) Windu said Vastor was on par with people stronger then the mechanical darth vader, as such putting him above him.

3) Again you are giving your personal opinion that sidious would own mace with the force. That fact is that we saw windu beating sidious and sidious wasn't able him using his force powers. So, this fact>your opinion.

4)What's your point? Are you telling me that yoda, in windu's place, with a lightsaber turned on, couldn't also hold sidious' lightning? As such, this proves that yoda lost his lightsaber due to the fact he had just jumped to sidious' pod. I don't even see why would you try to arg on this point. And your "yoda had just jumped there 1 second ago" is completly stupid as I already showed with maul's example. If you want to take movie time and judge it then I could arg that all the jedi masters send to fight sidious were patheticaly slow, seeing that even a child could have reacted faster then that.

5) No, I never said that a council member always owns non-council members, I especifically said that Vader stated that council members>kota, not that council members>everybody else. If you can't even understand what I say then don't arg with me.

6) She brought him to her knees because he didn't defend himself from the attack, he took it full power. What's the point here? That doesn't mean maul couldn't defend himself from the attack without suffer any kind of damage or pain if he wanted.

7) I am the moron lol. I pity you fool. It was stated that Mace reverted back to the vadpaad in the moment sidious shot the lightning. And depa's skills surpassed windu yet she lost when the source of pain she was using ended. And in shatterpoint mace uses more then once vaadpad and he didn't need an entire fight to use it. In that particulary fight, against sidious, he need more then a moment to use it, but does that mean it's always that way? I am not here to say why or why not that happened, but the true is that when we see vaadpad users using vadpaad, they can submerge on it quite fast.

8) You call nail to throw a table against him while he was atonished looking to him, without any kind of defences? And let's remind Marek and Vader's dialogue in TFU comic: Vader- "You know that is futile. I have nearly killed you twice already." Marek- "You ambushed me twice. You have beat me in a fair fight since I was a child". I would love see you trying to refute this, but I am sure you will find a way to try to not concede.

Just one final comment:





You are pathetic. I would love to see you in person actually saying these words. My god, how would I laugh at your face

Originally posted by Darth Angel
I don't have to patience to make such a big post and since half your commentaries are sarcams I can short it anyway.

This is e-speak for "I can't make a valid point so I will just repeat my trashed argument ad infinitum."

Find something new, please.

Points to answer:



The cutscene does not prove that Marek only entered the 'state of oneness' after he grappled with the lightning. In fact, there is no exact scene or indicator whatsoever of his manifestation of the Force. He doesn't glow or turn blue or anything. I want you to show where the cutscene proves conclusively that he entered a state of unity with the Force after catching the lightning. And be quick about it.



Windu mentions that Vastor's raw power is something that he's only seen from the likes of Yoda and Anakin Skywalker. This does not disprove the conclusion in Coruscant Nights where it proclaims that Vader is more powerful than Vastor.

Period.



Prove that 'Sidious didn't use his Force powers' = 'Sidious couldn't use his Force powers'.



You'd make the most staunch Pro-Lifer see the upside to abortion. Use your head, please, or leave. Your assertion that Yoda was disarmed because "LOLZ HE JUST JUMPED UP THE POD" is without merit, since it happened well over a second after he landed. This coming from the Jedi Master who can evade three of his peers unarmed circa Shadow Hunter and deflect dozens of blaster bolts from highly trained shocktroopers in milliseconds.



I'm not interested in your lies. Nor did Vader say that a Council master was more powerful than Kota.



Darth Maul, a great and powerful Sith apprentice, was momentarily disabled by a dark side witch who was his inferior by a considerable amount. So even when wielded by a weaker opponent, Force lightning can still debilitate superiors. Marek was facing someone whose powers surpassed his (the official databank) and somehow wasn't disabled or injured even though he didn't bother fighting back.



Read the damn novelization. Windu was submerging himself in Vaapad long before the lightning was thrown. That is my point. He had been trying to sink into Vaapad to counter Sidious's superior speed and ferocity throughout the whole duel. It took several seconds for him to actually duel Palpatine on even terms. It is not instant. Period.



Read the novelization, Vader also manages to nail Marek with a storm of objects.



It's "How I would laugh in your face," not "How would I laugh in your face." Are you asking me how to laugh? You butcher your own jokes. Best just stick to the argument.