Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Gaara with all of his abilities vs Zabuza with all of his abilities.

Who wins?

I like Gaara so Ill say gaara.

this looks like a sure death for mr. momochi.

Pre-timeskip, Zabusa might stand a chance.

Post-timeskip it's just rape.

im gonna go with gaara

Pre-timeskip Zabuza wins more than not.

Post, Gaara.

im gonna hav to go wit garra

pre or post zabuza...gaara takes both..

lulz

More silly littke kids. If they are near water Zabuza wins if they are near sand Gaara win. If there is sand and water than Zabuza wins since water plsu sand equal mud. Gaara has no Taijutsu, Speed, or anything else that would concern Zabuza besides his sand. Jeesh you people are so clueless.

where did it ever show that gaara sand is weak against water????i can't remember it??and he can create sand from the earth..what makes u think he can't create it from mud??

Originally posted by Slaanesh
where did it ever show that gaara sand is weak against water????i can't remember it??and he can create sand from the earth..what makes u think he can't create it from mud??

It isn't weak against water. You guys just think that Gaara's sand is like normal sand. Gaara's sand can't be blown up, what makes you think that water will do anything to Gaara's sand?

^ if he were facing someone like kisame who presumable full powered can spew out a lake, garra wouldn't even have mud if he was submerged, it would be loose particles far apart. plus e would have to ditch the sand armour since it would only weigh him down... shark missiles then tear the shit out of him.

however, zabuza seemingly can't pump out water like kisame can, a battlefield with water is as guaranteed as one with dunes, nobody should get an advantage. anyway, gaara still pwns him even if he had the battlefield disadvantage.

Gaara has his ultimate defense for one thing, and separated from water Zabuza can't do much of anything. It goes to Gaara, no contest.

Originally posted by Maikahyandowen
Gaara has his ultimate defense for one thing, and separated from water Zabuza can't do much of anything. It goes to Gaara, no contest.

Rock Lee was equally fast to a regular Jounin without his weights. Zabusa was almost equal to Kakashi, if not superior in speed. Getting through Gaara's basic sand shield and sand armour would be easy for someone as fast and skilled as Zabusa. It's not as if he has to continuously spam water dragon.

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
Rock Lee was equally fast to a regular Jounin without his weights. Zabusa was almost equal to Kakashi, if not superior in speed. Getting through Gaara's basic sand shield and sand armour would be easy for someone as fast and skilled as Zabusa. It's not as if he has to continuously spam water dragon.

Zabuza is no way superior in speed compared to Kakashi. Zabuza beinfast enough to hit Zabuza . Even with an advantage, Zabuza gets sand coffined and killed.

Originally posted by Wil7
Zabuza is no way superior in speed compared to Kakashi. Zabuza beinfast enough to hit Zabuza . Even with an advantage, Zabuza gets sand coffined and killed.

Like Gaara used sand coffin on Rock Lee?

lmao.

You're also mixing up names non-stop, must be difficult to spell properly when you're like...15.

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
Like Gaara used sand coffin on Rock Lee?

lmao.

You're also mixing up names non-stop, must be difficult to spell properly when you're like...15.

Actually Gaara will get him completly in sand coffin, like Kimmimaro, except it will kill him.

More like I am lmao.

No idea what you are taliking about, and that didn't make sence at all, but I have an A+ in english.

I think Zabuza wins, because I like saying "Zabuza." It's much more fun than saying Gaara.

Originally posted by Davehead
I think Zabuza wins, because I like saying "Zabuza." It's much more fun than saying Gaara.

ok. That isn't a good arguement, but whatever.

Originally posted by Wil7
Zabuza is no way superior in speed compared to Kakashi. Zabuza beinfast enough to hit Zabuza . Even with an advantage, Zabuza gets sand coffined and killed. Kakashi and Zabuza are about equal, with a slight possible leaning in Kakashi's favor. In terms of speed anyway.

about equal??? i think kakashi wud hav the advantage even without the slight possible lean.

Originally posted by adventbleach111
about equal??? i think kakashi wud hav the advantage even without the slight possible lean.

Yeah, Kakashi has shown way more speed than Zabuza has, and Kisame has shown some speed, but not Kakashi speed.

Originally posted by Wil7
Yeah, Kakashi has shown way more speed than Zabuza has, and Kisame has shown some speed, but not Kakashi speed. Zabuza has shown the speed to fight Kakashi in H2H, and able to block his blows.

Kisame has done the same, only replace Kakashi with Gai.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Zabuza has shown the speed to fight Kakashi in H2H, and able to block his blows.

Kisame has done the same, only replace Kakashi with Gai.

Zabuza has? I just watched the fights, and I don't remember that at all.

Kisame has? I watched the video and I don't remember Kisame blocking all of Gai's shots . Look what beat Kisame.

Originally posted by Wil7
Zabuza has? I just watched the fights, and I don't remember that at all.

Kisame has? I watched the video and I don't remember Kisame blocking all of Gai's shots . Look what beat Kisame. 1. In the manga he did, fvck the anime. There were a few differences, one such being when both did the Water Dragon jutsu, Kakashi and Zabuza in the anime took like 30 seconds to do it, but in the manga Sasuke even stressed the speed at which they were able to pull off such a powerful jutsu, and commented it was only a few seconds.

2. Well I would still say Gai is faster than Kisame, but Kisame is still fast enough to fight and hold the upperhand on Gai. And that was 6 Gates Gai...Who could speedblitz anyone short of Madara.

Originally posted by Wil7
Zabuza has? I just watched the fights, and I don't remember that at all.

Kisame has? I watched the video and I don't remember Kisame blocking all of Gai's shots . Look what beat Kisame.

I don't recall seeing Kisame ever lose a fight....

Gai used 6th gate to beat a clone with 30% of Kisame's chakra? not very impressive.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. In the manga he did, fvck the anime. There were a few differences, one such being when both did the Water Dragon jutsu, Kakashi and Zabuza in the anime took like 30 seconds to do it, but in the manga Sasuke even stressed the speed at which they were able to pull off such a powerful jutsu, and commented it was only a few seconds.

2. Well I would still say Gai is faster than Kisame, but Kisame is still fast enough to fight and hold the upperhand on Gai. And that was 6 Gates Gai...Who could speedblitz anyone short of Madara.

Well if he did in the anime, and not the manga, then its noncanon. Look how slow Zabuza was doing his jutsu, and if it was faster, then Kakashi would have still been able to copy it.

I never saw Gai speed around Kisame like Lee did to Gaara. Yeah 6 gates Gai, IMO, nobody can block his moves.

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
I don't recall seeing Kisame ever lose a fight....

Gai used 6th gate to beat a clone with 30% of Kisame's chakra? not very impressive.

It doesn't matter if you haven't seen him lose a fight, he would lose to Oro, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Kakashi, Gai, Pein, Madara, Itachi, etc.

Did you really think that speed has anything to do with chakra? Well it doesn't, because he will still be at the same speed even at 100% chakra. Gai would still turn on the 6 gates and pumble Kisame.

Originally posted by Wil7
Well if he did in the anime, and not the manga, then its noncanon. Look how slow Zabuza was doing his jutsu, and if it was faster, then Kakashi would have still been able to copy it.

I never saw Gai speed around Kisame like Lee did to Gaara. Yeah 6 gates Gai, IMO, nobody can block his moves.



It doesn't matter if you haven't seen him lose a fight, he would lose to Oro, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Kakashi, Gai, Pein, Madara, Itachi, etc.

Did you really think that speed has anything to do with chakra? Well it doesn't, because he will still be at the same speed even at 100% chakra. Gai would still turn on the 6 gates and pumble Kisame. 1. He did it in the manga nub. Learn to read. In the manga he did his jutsu extremely fast as noted by Sasuke. And yeah Kakashi could copy it.

2. Are you truly implying Lee is faster than Gai? And Lee was able to do that to Gaara because Gaara is slooooooooooooow, the slowest in the series most likely.

3. He wouldn't lose to Tsunade ever, would beat Kakashi more than not, and it was pretty much proven that Gai can't beat 100% Kisame, barely was able to beat 30%.

4. Chakra is used to amp ALL attributes, including speed. Look at the Gates, all they really do is increase personal chakra levels, and look at how much stronger and faster they get.

Sawsgays' words were "That many hand seals, and in seconds".

30 seconds is still "in seconds". Anything less than a mintue is "in seconds".

*shrug*

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Sawsgays' words were "That many hand seals, and in seconds".

30 seconds is still "in seconds". Anything less than a mintue is "in seconds".

*shrug* He commented on the incredible speed they were doing and noted it was in seconds.

The speed they did it in the anime, was not fast.

At all.

Not to mention the entire frame of them doing the seals was in one single panel.

So based on all that information, we can infer that it was very fast, as in, much less than 30 seconds.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
He commented on the incredible speed they were doing and noted it was in seconds.

I gave you the exact quote.



Fast is a relative term.



Panels do not convey a sense of time unless someone is talking or walking or it's in the captions. For all we know Kishi could have made it happen in only two panels because there was nothing else intresting happening, or to save pages.

And by that same notion, your theory for as to why the ice Mirrors is instantaneous falls under that same fallacy. I'm looking at that page right now, and there is no way to tell the time difference between the time the jutsu is cast and when the mirrors are up.



All entirely speculative. You can argue about the anime's inaccuracies, but the fact remains that the anime shows moving pictures and so is much more easy to interprete than the manga. That is why we use the anime at all.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. He did it in the manga nub. Learn to read. In the manga he did his jutsu extremely fast as noted by Sasuke. And yeah Kakashi could copy it.

2. Are you truly implying Lee is faster than Gai? And Lee was able to do that to Gaara because Gaara is slooooooooooooow, the slowest in the series most likely.

3. He wouldn't lose to Tsunade ever, would beat Kakashi more than not, and it was pretty much proven that Gai can't beat 100% Kisame, barely was able to beat 30%.

4. Chakra is used to amp ALL attributes, including speed. Look at the Gates, all they really do is increase personal chakra levels, and look at how much stronger and faster they get.

1. Don't really like the manga's. I look at them once in a while. Nub, crybaby, after that, boxing. Yeah, Kakashi could copy it, so I win there.

2. I don't think I ever said that, DID I!!! Well why do you think Gaara is the slowest in the series, because of a little thing called a gourd. Look how fast lee could move, and look at the slow reaction time of Gaara's. Gai's speed>lee's speed, and if he were zooming around, he would have been able to hit Kisame.

3. Tsunade punches him once and it's over, Kakashi summons the ninja hounds and uses lightning blade, Gai turns on 6 gates to beat Kisame. Not quick enough to block the attacks.

4. Well then, I guess that every single time Lee is zooming around he is wasting chakra, is that what you are saying? Plus, the gates are completly different from pure speed.

hooray!

New information I just realzied.

Here goes your whole pro-Zabzua argument, Dj. 131

Argument- Zabuza managed to land hits on Kakashi even when he was serious.

Neg!

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/29/naruto_29_19/



Kakashi SUPER serious-



Dodging Zabuza's strike easily with a body in his hand.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/31/naruto_31_10/

As you can tell by Zabzua's wide-eyed expression, he's surprised by kakashis' speed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/31/naruto_31_13/

*cough*
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/31/naruto_31_17/

QED. mmm

Gee, none of that could have anything to do with the fact that Zabuza was weakened could it?

*Hint*Notice the puddle of blood underneath him in the first scan.

Hell, in the fourth scan he has several kunai sticking out from him, and that was the scene where Kakashi "effortlessly knocked Zabuza back with a b!tchslap" as you like to bring up.

So yeah, I would think Kakashi who was relatively in good shape with Sharingan activated should be able to easily outmaneuver a Zabuza who has been lacerated in several places on his body and was continuing to lose blood.

Seriously, wtf?

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
I gave you the exact quote.



Fast is a relative term.



Panels do not convey a sense of time unless someone is talking or walking or it's in the captions. For all we know Kishi could have made it happen in only two panels because there was nothing else intresting happening, or to save pages.

And by that same notion, your theory for as to why the ice Mirrors is instantaneous falls under that same fallacy. I'm looking at that page right now, and there is no way to tell the time difference between the time the jutsu is cast and when the mirrors are up.



All entirely speculative. You can argue about the anime's inaccuracies, but the fact remains that the anime shows moving pictures and so is much more easy to interprete than the manga. That is why we use the anime at all. 1. Sasuke expressed amazement at their speed. 30 seconds isn't fast at all.

2. True, but relative to what? Cause sure, in the anime, what they did may of been fast by crippled old man standards, but honestly, if they were even doing handseals faster than a human could, it wasn't by much. Sasuke was clearly relating them to that of other ninja handseals he has seen.

3. Panels typically are used to convey not much time being expressed.

The anime used the slow mirror shit for dramatic effect, in the actual manga it took a single panel for them to be instantly up, but for some reason the anime thought it neccessary to make them very slow, for dramatics, nothing more.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Gee, none of that could have anything to do with the fact that Zabuza was weakened could it?

And yet you continue to ignore why he was weakened.



What other ninja? The only ninja of relevence he's actually seen do any ninjutsu is Itachi, and we already know that he forms handseals faster than even Kakashi can see. So aside from that we have no proof he has any other ninja to even really compare to. Iruka?



No they're not. Panels are used because it's a comic book and because the pictures don't move you have to have panels to show that something different is happening. That is all.



Prove it. All you have is two panels that don't convey any quantifiable sense of time. The time in-between those two panels could have been days for all we know, and while that is highly unlikely, you can't really prove otherwise.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
And yet you continue to ignore why he was weakened.



What other ninja? The only ninja of relevence he's actually seen do any ninjutsu is Itachi, and we already know that he forms handseals faster than even Kakashi can see. So aside from that we have no proof he has any other ninja to even really compare to. Iruka?



No they're not. Panels are used because it's a comic book and because the pictures don't move you have to have panels to show that something different is happening. That is all.



Prove it. All you have is two panels that don't convey any quantifiable sense of time. The time in-between those two panels could have been days for all we know, and while that is highly unlikely, you can't really prove otherwise. 1. Because he has a dog biting both legs, his neck, his arms, his stomach I think, and maybe sumthin else I forgot. And yeah, it was a clever summon move from Kakashi, I get that. I never argued that Zabuza>Kakashi overall, Kakashi is very versatile and clever. However, the speed gap is not as large as you like to think it is.

2. Well let us see. He has seen himself form handseals. He has seen Kakashi form handseals before, but that was just playing. He has seen pretty much ever ninja in his academy form handseals. He has probably seen Iruka, a Chunin and his instructor, form handseals. And he noted that for the amount of seals they performed, it was incredibly fast. So nothing at all points to them being slow despite what you think, in fact all evidence points to them being fast, and "a few" is very rarely used to refer to 30 seconds or more.

3. And panels are also used to convey time, if something takes a long period of time usually it will take more panels, or at least state a given time. Which this did btw, it was very fast, and a few seconds.

4. Prove WHAT? That in the anime, it took like 45 seconds for the mirrors to appear, when in the manga, in one panel they literally BURSTED from the water, which is an indication of speed? There was NO indication of the time it takes to summon the mirrors being 45 seconds in the manga, and they did it for dramatic effect in the anime. And the fact that they bursted from the water should say sumthin.

Pre-time skip, Zabuza wins, after time-skip, Gaara wins.

the only part of an anime that stems from a manga that is not canon is filler, manga and comics are storyboards for the cartoon/anime.

when kakashi was using his sharingan to imitate zabuza's techniques, the anime slowed down the frames so that we could understand what was going on, that's all. and the water dragon jutsu has the most required hand seals to activate it, thats why it was selected by kishi to show off the power of the sharingan's copying ability.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Because he has a dog biting both legs, his neck, his arms, his stomach I think, and maybe sumthin else I forgot. And yeah, it was a clever summon move from Kakashi, I get that. I never argued that Zabuza>Kakashi overall, Kakashi is very versatile and clever. However, the speed gap is not as large as you like to think it is.

And there's no reason to think so. Zabuza has never shown to be Kakashi's equal in taijutsu when Kakashi uses his Sharingan, even when Zabuza was perfectly fine the only hits he got it were the ones Kakashi LET him get in.



Everyone's he has seen do handsealss consist of rookie genin who at that point weren't skilled at all, Iruka for christs sakes, and Kakashi who wasn't going all out. And you mention Iruka being a Chuunin like that means something. Shikamaru is a Chuunin... jounin by post-TS, yet he doesn't form handseals at an even above average speed.

It's not like he has much to compare to in the first place.



Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. You'd have to prove it.



No they didn't, prove it.



"Burst" from the water? It looked to me like they were just forming.

You'd have to prove it was dramtic affect.

Why do i have to keep repeating this over and over? Are you people retarded or just little kids? If the creator of Naruto states something then apparently it is what he says it is. Zabuza was better at Taijutsu when he fouht Kakashi. A 9 out of a 10 is higher than a 8 out of 10. The only hits Zabuza got in where the ones Kakashi let him get in? Apparenlty you didnt see their first fight right? The first kick Zabuza tried landed and Sasuke stated that Zabuza's Taijutsu is extremelely good as too. Do you really believe Kakashi let Zabuza stab him in the hand and hit him with his sword? It was just talk from a fighter who had the advantage. Kakashi had no idea if Zabuza would throw the kunai away or even if Zabuza could summon dogs like Kakashi could.

After Zabuza was bit on the arms and legs he was in no condition to fight Kakashi and win. Even Kakashi stated this too. Read the Japanese manga or watch the uncut japanese anime. Going into their fight Zabuza was better at Taijutsu, Strength, and Chakra supply, Kakashi was better at Genjutsu, Intelligence Hand Seal and i think their Ninjutsu was both a 9 or maybe Kakashi's was a 10. Their speed was the same according to the offical stats by the creator.

I will say this for the last time. There was no way in hell Kakashi, Naruto or Sasuke were going to get killed so early into the show. You knew they were going to win. Why didn't Haku put Naruto and Sasuke to sleep when based on the show he could do so with just one needle? Haku landed countless needle hits but couldnt accomplish this task. Why wouldnt Zabuza make more water clones when he had Kakashi trapped in the water prison jutsu and have some just kill Kakashi? If he did this he could of easily killed Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura.

In any case pre time skip and time skip Gaara would lose if Zabuza was near water. If Gaara was near sand and Zabuza was near water then Gaara would still lose. The only way Gaara would win if Zabuza didn't increase his skills like every other character did during the time skip and Gaara was near sand. Gaara almost lost to Rock Lee and According to their stats Zabuza was better at Taijutsu, Genjutsu, Ninjutsu, Intelligence, Hand Seal, Chakra Supply, Strength and their speed was the same.

There should be 2 forums here. One for 10 year old kids who base their oppinions on how cool a move looks or how much they like one character and one for people who know what they are talking about.

You're an idiot, and so I'm putting you on ignore, for being an idiot and for being wrong.

Bye, idiot.

lolz

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Because he has a dog biting both legs, his neck, his arms, his stomach I think, and maybe sumthin else I forgot. And yeah, it was a clever summon move from Kakashi, I get that. I never argued that Zabuza>Kakashi overall, Kakashi is very versatile and clever. However, the speed gap is not as large as you like to think it is.

2. Well let us see. He has seen himself form handseals. He has seen Kakashi form handseals before, but that was just playing. He has seen pretty much ever ninja in his academy form handseals. He has probably seen Iruka, a Chunin and his instructor, form handseals. And he noted that for the amount of seals they performed, it was incredibly fast. So nothing at all points to them being slow despite what you think, in fact all evidence points to them being fast, and "a few" is very rarely used to refer to 30 seconds or more.

3. And panels are also used to convey time, if something takes a long period of time usually it will take more panels, or at least state a given time. Which this did btw, it was very fast, and a few seconds.

4. Prove WHAT? That in the anime, it took like 45 seconds for the mirrors to appear, when in the manga, in one panel they literally BURSTED from the water, which is an indication of speed? There was NO indication of the time it takes to summon the mirrors being 45 seconds in the manga, and they did it for dramatic effect in the anime. And the fact that they bursted from the water should say sumthin. so the fact that the maga panel doesnt show time because they dont move has nothing to do with the ice bieng there