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Who wins here?

1.Sabers
2.Force
3.All out

Location-Mustafar

i already made this thread and the consensus was that vader loses please use the search button

Sabers: Windu 7-8/10.
Force: Windu 10/10.
All-out: Windu 8-9/10.

Mace is clearly Vader superior. While Vader might have more raw power Mace is more skilled with a blade, has loads more mastery with the Force, more experience, along with Vapaad which would **** Vader up considering the amount of hate he put out against Kenobi and knowing he certainly hates Mace he will be sloppy and emotional and the more dark output he makes the stronger Mace will become and then if, IF it becomes dead even Mace's shatterpoint will kick in and Windu will likely ind a weakness.

To qoute another KMC poster, "Anakin cannot contend with Mace's talents."

Windu stomps

As MOC said you the search button and I'm curious as to why all you do is make threads but don't contribute to any of the discussions.

nah I say the Chosen One has a decent chance against anyone except the 2 most powerful force users in history(Sidious and Yoda). and hed even give them a run for their money in Sabers(and Sabers Only).

If Mace wins it would most likely be due to Vapaads advantage over Darksiders, the same way he beat Sidious.

but if were talking about their natural abilities and powers then id say Anakin is easily a match for Mace if not superior.

no, ROTS vader had not nearly reached his full potential. His loss to Kenobi confirms this.

As they are Mace is still above Skywalker. His skill with a blade superceeds his and so does his Force mastery. Sabers Anakin would fight for a little bit but Mace floored Sidious in less than two minutes IIRC. Can't see why Anakin(who uses more hate when he fights) would fair better. Heck he'd probably fight the same way he did against Kenobi seeing how Mace isn't in Skywalker's fav 5.

Originally posted by truejedi
no, ROTS vader had not nearly reached his full potential. His loss to Kenobi confirms this.

He didnt need to reach full potential to be in Mace's league. If he had reached full potential he would wipe the floor with Mace in 30 seconds.

His loss to Kenobi confirms nothing. Kenobi was "The Master" of Soresu. It would take even the best Jedi a while to breach his defences in Lightsaber battle. (Which clearly Anakin would have done had the fight gone on considering Kenobi was getting exhausted and Anakin looked like he just started fighting.)

But Kenobi simply outsmarted him.. It just shows how Kenobi keeps his cool even during a long drawn out and very emotional fight, and shows how Kenobi really is the Council's "most cunning warrior" as the whole Jedi council beleive him to be(ROTS novel).

Originally posted by Darth Martin
As they are Mace is still above Skywalker.

No proof of this. Mace himself says "Skywalker is arguably the most Powerful Jedi Alive.."

Originally posted by Darth Martin
His skill with a blade superceeds his

that didnt help Dooku.. and dnt underestimate Anakins technical skill...

hes completely mastered Djem So(being a fine a user as Dooku had ever seen) and Shien.. and is also quite proficient in at least Ataro.. knows Kenobis(Soresu) moves inside out.. and by RODV hes trained in all forms of combat.. considering theres not much time between ROTS and RODV, he must have already been trained in many forms by ROTS.


Originally posted by Darth Martin
and so does his Force mastery.

Again that didnt help Dooku(Mace's superior in Force Mastery).. and besides Mace might have better Force Mastery, but Anakin has far more raw power in the force. Iv never been presented with any evidence that suggest Mace would actually defeat Anakin in a force fight.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Sabers Anakin would fight for a little bit but Mace floored Sidious in less than two minutes IIRC..

yeah thats true.. as iv already said if Mace does win it will be due to Vapaads advantage over darksiders.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Heck he'd probably fight the same way he did against Kenobi seeing how Mace isn't in Skywalker's fav 5.

iv already explained why he lost to "the Master of Soresu", and "the Most cunning Jedi on the council".. you cant just assume hes gna make a daft move against any Jedi he hates.. the fight wnt even last that long. and he fought just fine when he defeated Cin Drallig.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He didnt need to reach full potential to be in Mace's league. If he had reached full potential he would wipe the floor with Mace in 30 seconds.

His loss to Kenobi confirms nothing. Kenobi was "The Master" of Soresu. It would take even the best Jedi a while to breach his defences in Lightsaber battle. (Which clearly Anakin would have done had the fight gone on considering Kenobi was getting exhausted and Anakin looked like he just started fighting.) Not that I'm arguing the topic, but Anakin hardly looked he was just getting started. He looked better off than Kenobi, but I'm just saying.

kenobi owned the guy. read the novelization if you don't believe me.

haha.. so what if he lost to Kenobi?? its not like Kenobi was just some average jedi.. he was the most Cunning Jedi on the Council and "The Master" of Soresu. You lot seem to make out that Losing to Kenobi proves how rubbish he was or something.

and the fact that he knows Anakin better than anyone, and knows his moves inside out actually makes him the Jedi best suited to tackle Anakin.

Kenobi is no average Jedi. So is Anakin. Give them some respect.

Sabers, Vader - 7/10.
Force, Vader - 7/10.
All Out, Vader - 7/10.

Enyalus: i'm assuming that's a joke, right? Yoda was num 1 in the galaxy. mace was number 2. Anakin, by virtue of NOT being num 1, or num 2 would naturally have to fall into that category of being less than number 2. am i right?

Originally posted by truejedi
Enyalus: i'm assuming that's a joke, right?

Nope.

Originally posted by truejedi
Yoda was num 1 in the galaxy. mace was number 2.

Says who? They were the senior members on the Council, sure. Anakin is repeatedly called the fastest and strongest Jedi. He's frequently called the most powerful Jedi, too. He says it to the Jedi Council at one point and no one corrects him. Dooku called him the greatest Djem So practitioner he'd ever seen. That's before going to the Dark Side - where he became an even better duelist and had even more power. Enough to flat out obliterate Dooku, and easily defeat Cin Drallig with one hand while using his free hand to kill his padawan. The same Cin Drallig who Dooku thought would kill Grievous in a duel. And he did this in the Jedi Temple, which gave a massive increase in power to all lightsiders - of which he was not. His Force power was great enough to hurl a huge statue like a missile and Force Crush a durasteel blast door.

I think he would beat Mace. Not easily, but often enough.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Says who? Anakin is repeatedly called the fastest and strongest Jedi."Of his generation." And Durge calls him the fastest Jedi "he's ever killed."

Durge has never fought Mace Windu.

And he still can't overpower Obi-Wan.

This makes it true? He says he can overthrow the Emperor - presumably by Force - and no one corrects him there, either.

True, although he defeated Dooku through vastly superior physical strength augmented by his limitless Force-reserves, not superior skill.

Dooku said it would be best to retreat against Drallig and the Council members if he lacked specific advantages, not that they would flat-out kill him in a fair fight. As someone pointed out to me a few days ago, Mace Windu and Obi-Wan were still fairly hard-pressed to take him down in a duel, and even Dooku himself admitted to as much.

Never mind that Grievous has apparently already forced Kit Fisto to retreat in a fair fight; Fisto being one of the best of the best in the Order as far as swordsmanship is considered.

Prove that the increase is "massive."

And Anakin noted a surge of power when he was in the top-most spire, where the Force-energies were focused to. There wouldn't be nearly as significant a "boost" anywhere else in the Temple, let alone on ground-level.

Mace crushed eight durasteel super battle-droids while sliding on his back.

And where did Anakin crush a durasteel door?

I think he could give Mace a very good fight. But even if you assume that Vader's newfound dark-side power makes him stronger and faster than Mace, it's nothing that Vaapad can't replicate. Factor in shatterpoint and Mace's superior skill, and you have a win for the Jedi.

Originally posted by Faunus
"Of his generation."
"The Most Powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The strongest. The fastest." - the narrator.

"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful jedi alive.." Mace Windu.

"Skywalker has the power to battle a sith lord alone.." Ki-Adi Mundi talking on tackling Sidious.

"And even if the prophecy has been misread, Anakin is the one jedi we can best hope would survive an encounter with a Sith Lord." Agen Kolar talking on tackling Sidious.



Originally posted by Faunus
"And he still can't overpower Obi-Wan.

and?? Soresu Masters are said to have an impenetrable defence, and said to be invincible. and Kenobi is called "THE MASTER of Soresu.." and still Anakin would have eventually overpowered Kenobi had Kenobi not tactically outsmarted him first.

Originally posted by Faunus
This makes it true? He says he can overthrow the Emperor - presumably by Force - and no one corrects him there, either.

what u expected Padme to debate how powerful he is??? I think she was more bothered about how EVIL he is! Lol
and iv left quotes on his power from 3 legendary. Council Members above.


Originally posted by Faunus
True, although he defeated Dooku through vastly superior physical strength augmented by his limitless Force-reserves, not superior skill.]

he was basically too strong, too fast and just way too powerful for Dooku.

and dnt underestimate Anakin's technical skill. by RODV he is trained in all forms of combat, which means he must be trained in most forms by ROTS. add that to having perfectly mastered Djem So and you have a Very Technically skilled Chosen One.


Originally posted by Faunus
I think he could give Mace a very good fight. But even if you assume that Vader's newfound dark-side power makes him stronger and faster than Mace, it's nothing that Vaapad can't replicate. Factor in shatterpoint and Mace's superior skill, and you have a win for the Jedi.

yeah probably. Vapaads advantage on darksiders is gna make things very difficult for Vader.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
"The Most Powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The strongest. The fastest." - the narrator.

"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful jedi alive.." Mace Windu.

"Skywalker has the power to battle a sith lord alone.." Ki-Adi Mundi talking on tackling Sidious.

"And even if the prophecy has been misread, Anakin is the one jedi we can best hope would survive an encounter with a Sith Lord." Agen Kolar talking on tackling Sidious.I was talking about his strength and speed.

Talking about the Force-push contest.

True.

The Jedi Council also though Agen Kolar and Mace Windu alone would be enough to defeat Darth Sidious.

Too strong because of his natural Force-reserves, not too fast. And Dooku would've likely manhandled him with the Force had he been inclined to at first.

Who's still not as skilled as Mace Windu. And prove that he was a Djem So "master."

Mace is his superior. He overpowered Palpatune who>Vader in every way.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Mace is his superior. He overpowered Palpatune who>Vader in every way. Horrendous use of the tried and true A>B>C logic. Though I don't disagree that Mace would defeat Vader, Vader's not Palpatine and fights differently.

Vader takes the saber duel, the Force battle goes to Windu due to experience, all-out goes to Vader.

Originally posted by Faunus
Talking about the Force-push contest.

Which is where intro to psych comes into play. If the mind is out of sync, the body will be too. In a Jedi's case, since the Force is manipulated by the mind - we would see a drop in power and performance there as well.

During the temple raid, he brings down a massive statue that could almost touch the ceiling with TK, then casually tosses a huge piece of rubble it leaves with force enough to break down a sealed entranceway. It's evident that his mental state was why he couldn't overpower Kenobi there & lost. Obi-Wan cleared his mind of attachments when fighting as a Jedi is supposed to; Anakin let his attachments consume him. Nick Gillard says as much:

"Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him, but when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes."

Originally posted by Advent
Vader takes the saber duel, the Force battle goes to Windu due to experience, all-out goes to Vader.



Which is where intro to psych comes into play. If the mind is out of sync, the body will be too. In a Jedi's case, since the Force is manipulated by the mind - we would see a drop in power and performance there as well.

During the temple raid, he brings down a massive statue that could almost touch the ceiling with TK, then casually tosses a huge piece of rubble it leaves with force enough to break down a sealed entranceway. It's evident that his mental state was why he couldn't overpower Kenobi there & lost. Obi-Wan cleared his mind of attachments when fighting as a Jedi is supposed to; Anakin let his attachments consume him. Nick Gillard says as much:

"Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him, but when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes."

Indeed. Emotion and area disadvantage are factors in Anakin's fight with Obi.

surpassing obi-wan hardly means that he is superior to windu.

Why?

Because Windu was superior to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Faunus
Too strong because of his natural Force-reserves, not too fast.
actually if you read the fight in the ROTS novel it seems he was having trouble handling his speed as well.

"each step a blow, each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him.

"That blue blade was eveywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster, until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze."

and theres too many quotes in the fight about how powerful Skywalkers blows were for me to start quoting right now.

Originally posted by Faunus
And Dooku would've likely manhandled him with the Force had he been inclined to at first.

yes that would always be a possibility. Dooku was Far Far Superior with the Force.

Originally posted by Faunus
Who's still not as skilled as Mace Windu. And prove that he was a Djem So "master."

The fact that he was as fine a user of Djem So as Dooku had ever seen.
Considering Dooku used to be a Lightsaber instructor at the temple id say hes seen them all.
Also the final fight with Obi1 shoed them to be "2 halves of the same warrior.." it seems their Mastery was on the same level.

so yeah id say all the evidence suggests that Anakin was not only a master but had Perfectly Mastered his form of choice.

Originally posted by truejedi
surpassing obi-wan hardly means that he is superior to windu.

Perhaps. But beating down Dooku is strong evidence.

Dooku is nowhere proven stronger than Windu either.

Neither is Windu proven to be stronger than Dooku in his natural fighting state. Dark Rendezvous actually calls them equals.

could you post that quote? along with page num?

and if you are posting that beating Dooku is proof anakin surpassed Windu (even if the DR quote exists) Then i would offer for proof that Windu surpassed Sidious (as proven by Windu BEATING sidious)

You argument just doesn't work DP, if Anakin>Mace and Mace> sidious, then anakin>sidous and dooku> sidious.

that kind of reasoning fails.

its page 315, during Dooku's fight with Yoda. The narrator quotes that "On neutral ground, out of all the other jedi perhaps only Mace Windu would be his equal.."
Also when they fought in Obsessions Mace and Dooku seemed a good match with neither seeming to gain an advantage.

but yes your right A>B>C argument doesnt always work. Dooku beat Obi-wan who beat Anakin who beat Dooku..

and if we go by the Mace beat Sidious thing, then Mace is Greater than Yoda because Yoda didnt defeat Sidious.. so that argument is clearly flawed.

However the A>B>B argument is useful in determining what a Jedi/Sith is capable of. so it at least proves that Anakin is capable of taking someone like Windu down. whether he actually does defeat him is a different story.

oh definitly. There are only a few matchups that we discuss that would be 10/10 sort of things. Those are spite threads.

Yeah, i'd pick Mace 7/10, which means i'd put him at stronger than Vader, but it definitly leaves the door open for a Vader victory.