Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins?

MM in a stomp.

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
MM in a stomp.
What are his best feats?

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
MM in a stomp.

Molecule Man wins.

Originally posted by Endrict Nuul

MM in a stomp.

Molecule Man wins, in a horrific stomp!

Originally posted by Mr Master
Molecule Man wins, in a horrific stomp!

Why so?

cuz he matched teh beyonder! why else?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Why so?

Because even the LT's power was far inferior to Classic MM.

MM wins

it was clear

Beyonder>>> MM >>>>>>>> Others

Originally posted by kgkg
MM wins

it was clear

Beyonder>>> MM >>>>>>>> Others
What was everyone's feats at the time? Was anyone uber?

I thought Reece was unable to manipulate living matter in his classic days. How does he beat a reality warper with all power? I have to pull for Thanos on this one.

Originally posted by Stoic

I thought Reece was unable to manipulate living matter in his classic days.
Fangirl is referring to Owen after Doom updated him about his potential, (control organic molecules)
which woke up Owen thus instantly making him the most powerful being in all of Marvel,
beneath the Beyonder of course.
Originally posted by Stoic

How does he beat a reality warper with all power?
By being more powerful.

But seriously, Owen was far more powerful than the LT,
and the LT is more powerful than the IG.

Owen simply reached Mankind's full potential, (destiny)
that is, Humanoids becoming more powerful than the abstracts,
even more powerful than the LT.

Although classic Owen was retconned (de-powered)
Mankind's destiny still remains, and will arrive some time in the future.

Originally posted by Stoic
I thought Reece was unable to manipulate living matter in his classic days.

I think that was because he was unaware that he could so he limited himself to inorganic material.

MM wins this with ease.

Originally posted by Galan007
cuz he matched teh beyonder! why else?















You lookin to start some shit!!!??

http://91.121.132.199/gifs/6259.gif

http://i13.tinypic.com/2rggj7p.jpg


uhuh

Reece

Originally posted by Galan007
cuz he matched teh beyonder! why else?














Is that what he did? I thought the beyonder was a noob by then who had limited his own powers, and even then, Reece barely made it out of the fight.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Is that what he did? I thought the beyonder was a noob by then who had limited his own powers, and even then, Reece barely made it out of the fight. Beyonder limiting his powers was >>> all the abstracts

Reece was the only one that could momentarily put up a fight.

Originally posted by Mindset
Beyonder limiting his powers was >>> all the abstracts

Reece was the only one that could momentarily put up a fight.
And what feats did the abstracts have in those days that were uber?

Why don't you go research that and come back and tell me.

Originally posted by Mindset
Why don't you go research that and come back and tell me.
I already know. Smart pain in the ...........................

Change Thanos with THOTI and then we have a fight.this fight though Thanos is FTL horribly.

Thanos Ig wins this easy...way to easy.

Correct me if I'm wrong Mr. Masters or whoever. Wasn't the LT in the days of this fight between The Beyonder and the MM written far less powerful then he was during the Infinity Gauntlet? It seems to me his feats have increased and increased far beyond how they were written during the fight in question. Is this true or not?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Correct me if I'm wrong Mr. Masters or whoever. Wasn't the LT in the days of this fight between The Beyonder and the MM written far less powerful then he was during the Infinity Gauntlet? It seems to me his feats have increased and increased far beyond how they were written during the fight in question. Is this true or not?
Say it again. Feats are what count.

Featwise, maybe.

But he was still portrayed as the absolute power and authority beneath TOAA.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Featwise, maybe.

But he was still portrayed as the absolute power and authority beneath TOAA.
No he wasn't. Molecule Man was more powerful. And he was the absolute authority over a multiverse.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Featwise, maybe.

But he was still portrayed as the absolute power and authority beneath TOAA.

Well feats are very important and how things are portrayed. The LT in those days was hiding in a closet for God sakes with other abstracts in fear of the Beyonder. The MM with a wave of his hand re-did all the destruction the Beyonder did laying waste to planets. Sounds very similar to how the LT is written now and sounds exactly like what happened when the LT faced of against Warlock with the wave of his hand. The fact of the matter is him hiding in a closet and looking for protection from the MM isn't the LT being written properly or how he is written today or for sometime now. Fact of the matter is if the TOAA wanted to step in an oppose the Beyonder the LT could very well have been given is backing and power as his absolute judge. That is only if he couldn't have fought himself. However, that at least should've been how it should've played out regardless not him hiding and asking Reece for help. The fact is back then the LT wasn't written like he is today and doesn't have the feats ilke he has today. He may have had that title but he didn't really have it imo.

Originally posted by fangirl101
No he wasn't. Molecule Man was more powerful. And he was the absolute authority over a multiverse.

...Yes. I know MM was more powerful. But LT's job and position as top dog next to TOAA were the same in Secret Wars as they were in the Infinity War.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well feats are very important and how things are portrayed. The LT in those days was hiding in a closet for God sakes with other abstracts in fear of the Beyonder. The MM with a wave of his hand re-did all the destruction the Beyonder did laying waste to planets. Sounds very similar to how the LT is written now and sounds exactly like what happened when the LT faced of against Warlock with the wave of his hand. The fact of the matter is him hiding in a closet and looking for protection from the MM isn't the LT being written properly or how he is written today or for sometime now. Fact of the matter is if the TOAA wanted to step in an oppose the Beyonder the LT could very well have been given is backing and power as his absolute judge. That is only if he couldn't have fought himself. However, that at least should've been how it should've played out regardless not him hiding and asking Reece for help. The fact is back then the LT wasn't written like he is today and doesn't have the feats ilke he has today. He may have had that title but he didn't really have it imo.
You are a poster of absolute reason and sanity.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well feats are very important and how things are portrayed. The LT in those days was hiding in a closet for God sakes with other abstracts in fear of the Beyonder. The MM with a wave of his hand re-did all the destruction the Beyonder did laying waste to planets. Sounds very similar to how the LT is written now and sounds exactly like what happened when the LT faced of against Warlock with the wave of his hand. The fact of the matter is him hiding in a closet and looking for protection from the MM isn't the LT being written properly or how he is written today or for sometime now. Fact of the matter is if the TOAA wanted to step in an oppose the Beyonder the LT could very well have been given is backing and power as his absolute judge. That is only if he couldn't have fought himself. However, that at least should've been how it should've played out regardless not him hiding and asking Reece for help. The fact is back then the LT wasn't written like he is today and doesn't have the feats ilke he has today. He may have had that title but he didn't really have it imo.

That's kind of like saying Doomsday shouldn't have killing Superman on his resume because Superman was weaker back then...

Originally posted by Enyalus
That's kind of like saying Doomsday shouldn't have killing Superman on his resume because Superman was weaker back then...
Um that is why it's called DOS Doomsday. And H/P doomsday. Feats.

It can be on his resume but logic and common sense also need apply to various PIS or CIS events. I believe it was CIS and just a general not writing of the LT properly back then. To ignore that isn't very sound reasoning.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Um that is why it's called DOS Doomsday. And H/P doomsday. Feats.

Okay. And this is Pre-Retcon MM. And the feats he has are basically being more powerful than the LT - who was second to TOAA in power and authority. That position hasn't changed. You want to invalidate MM's power because no one back then had many feats? Lack of evidence isn't proof of it, though. It's the same title. It's the same LT. Always has been.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Okay. And this is Pre-Retcon MM. And the feats he has are basically being more powerful than the LT - who was second to TOAA in power and authority. That position hasn't changed. You want to invalidate MM's power because no one back then had many feats? Lack of evidence isn't proof of it, though. It's the same title. It's the same LT. Always has been.
Position? If Preretconned LT was 2nd to TOAA then The beyonder nor the MM would have been more powerful than he. So yes, it has a lot to do with feats.

LT was never retconned. Same LT then as the LT now. The same LT in 1986 as in 1992.

And Fangirl, seriously...LT was second to TOAA - then the Beyonder came along and surpassed his power. And afterwards, bam - back to second best.

Others have argued this very point including Mr. Masters.... LT wasn't written like his is today and didn't have the backing and feats to go along with that title. I remember a day when the LT's most powerful move was creating a super nova...lol lol. I mean really that was his most powerful move. To say that writers had a good grasp on what it meant to be Second in command back then is just nonsense. IMO that comic was written with the LT having serious CIS and PIS

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Others have argued this very point including Mr. Masters I believe.... The LT wasn't written like his is today and didn't have the backing and feats to go along with that title. I remember a day when the LT's most powerful move was creating a super nova...lol lol. I mean really that was his most powerful move. To say that writers had a good grasp on what it meant to be Second in command back then is just nonsense. IMO that comic was written with the LT having serious CIS and PIS

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Others have argued this very point including Mr. Masters.... LT wasn't written like his is today and didn't have the backing and feats to go along with that title. I remember a day when the LT's most powerful move was creating a super nova...lol lol. I mean really that was his most powerful move. To say that writers had a good grasp on what it meant to be Second in command back then is just nonsense. IMO that comic was written with the LT having serious CIS and PIS

So we should invalidate 90% of MM's feats?

Tell me what you expect. He made the entire Marvel abstract hierarchy look like a joke. That they weren't written like they are now shouldn't make a difference - same titles, same abilities, same implied power.

Originally posted by Enyalus
So we should invalidate 90% of MM's feats?

Tell me what you expect. He made the entire Marvel abstract hierarchy look like a joke. That they weren't written like they are now shouldn't make a difference - same titles, same abilities, same implied power.
No. Same implied power my ass. Anything and everything MM did would be cake for someone like eternity or the LT. Hell, The UN a part of Galactus did more on panel than MM ever did. It fixed the whole multiverse in one instant.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Others have argued this very point including Mr. Masters....
LT wasn't written like his is today
and didn't have the backing and feats to go along with that title.
I challenge you to produce a single scan that states LT's power was ever retconned,
or a single scan that depicts the LT's power was retconned,
or a single Bio account that states either fallacy.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

I remember a day when the LT's most powerful move was creating a super nova...lol lol.

I mean really that was his most powerful move.
Really?

That's interesting,
cause I remember the LT (with a thought)
ripping Korvac's entire Universe from the Multiverse,
and then sealing it in an impenetrable barrier.

I remember the LT stomping Nebulous,
who possessed through his staff, all the evil Magic in creation.

I remember the LT re-creating the dawn and birth of creation for Dr Strange.

"Super nova his most powerful move?"


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

To say that writers
had a good grasp on what it meant to be Second in command back then
is just nonsense.
It seems you need to do some reading dogs,
cause you have no idea what you're talking about,
and discussing subjects through ignorance is equally nonsensical imo.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

IMO that comic was written with the LT having serious CIS and PIS
LT was the most powerful entity in Marvel, period.

Then the Beyonder was created by TOAA who was Jim Shooter,
ol' Jimmy made Beyonder a Supreme Being that was an ocean,
while all of Marvel (including the LT) was a drop of water.

Then Owen discovered his true potential,
and he also became more powerful than the LT and all of Marvel,
beneath the Beyonder of course.

This isn't CIS or PIS, to THIS day:

The future of Humanity,
as they evolve into greater Mutants,
they will then evolve into Eternity,
every Human being will be an Eternity unto themselves,
and finally, Humanity will command the Cosmos,
where even the LT and the rest will bow to Humanity.

The Stranger was trying to usurp Humanity's destiny,
he failed of course:


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/525235_Humans1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/525236_Humans2.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/525237_Humans3.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/525238_Humans4.jpg



Owen Reece was the first to reach this potential:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/894289_Owne.jpg

... Then as we all know, this was retconned and Owen was de-powered.


You don't like it, that's fine,
but you'll have to complain to Marvel about it,
cause it's a fact.

This is why Beyonder and even Owen was retconned,
due to ridiculous exaggeration of power and grander.

A retcon affects all involved. That will be all.

Originally posted by fangirl101
A retcon affects all involved. That will be all.

No.

Like I told YOU in the post I just posted!
Originally posted by Mr Master

I challenge you to produce a single scan that states LT's power was ever retconned,

or a single scan that depicts the LT's power was retconned,

or a single Bio account that states either fallacy.
If you can't,
then please ... shush

Originally posted by Enyalus
No.
yes. The LT was limited in what he could do so that Owen Reece could shine. Owen didn't do shit that the Un couldn't do better. the UN fixes the multiverse in an instant. Owen had to take time to fix the multiverse and not even all of it. Just the damaged parts. A retcon changes all involved. especially a retcon of that magnitude.

Took time? I remember him doing it with a twirl of his finger WHILE consoling the Beyonder.

Originally posted by fangirl101
yes. The LT was limited in what he could do so that Owen Reece could shine. Owen didn't do shit that the Un couldn't do better. the UN fixes the multiverse in an instant. Owen had to take time to fix the multiverse and not even all of it. Just the damaged parts. A retcon changes all involved. especially a retcon of that magnitude.

Beyonder was retconned. Reece was retconned. That's it. LT is LT is LT. That Reece made him look pathetic is just a testament to his power and achieved potential. See Mr. Master's post, which is supported by on panel evidence for more.

MM wins. Easily.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Beyonder was retconned. Reece was retconned. That's it. LT is LT is LT. That Reece made him look pathetic is just a testament to his power and achieved potential. See Mr. Master's post, which is supported by on panel evidence for more.

MM wins. Easily.
The STORY was retconned. Thanks.

Originally posted by fangirl101

yes.

The LT was limited in what he could do so that Owen Reece could shine.
Lie #1
Originally posted by fangirl101

Owen didn't do shit that the Un couldn't do better.
the UN fixes the multiverse in an instant.

Owen had to take time to fix the multiverse and not even all of it.

Just the damaged parts.
Lie #2
Originally posted by fangirl101

A retcon changes all involved. especially a retcon of that magnitude.
Lie #3

Since evidently you're back to the same old ploys,
I'll just let Eny take care of ya with the on panel irrefutable proof I just posted.

If you actually come back with something,
anything by any stretch of the imagination that at the very least alludes to your fallacies,
I'll return.

But, considering you have to post an affirmation from Marvel comics,
instead of empty unsupported made up claims,
I'm obviously not going to need to return.

Do what you always do, and Nvr do.

Peace dogs.

Originally posted by fangirl101
The STORY was retconned. Thanks.

This is a failure of epic proportions.

The 2008 handbook still acknowledges alot of the stuff that happened in that arc.

Originally posted by fangirl101
The STORY was retconned. Thanks.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
This is a failure of epic proportions.

The 2008 handbook still acknowledges alot of the stuff that happened in that arc.
Yes. But the Beyonder and MM never had the power shown. Which means they were never more powerful than the LT. Ever. Ever. Ever. Never.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Yes. But the Beyonder and MM never had the power shown. Which means they were never more powerful than the LT. Ever. Ever. Ever. Never.

Except that this is Pre-Retconned MM, meaning he did.

And so he wins.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Except that this is Pre-Retconned MM, meaning he did.

And so he wins.
Pre retconned means we have to go by his feats at the time. Not by the LT's or anyone elses After the time. pwned.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Pre retconned means we have to go by his feats at the time. Not by the LT's or anyone elses After the time. pwned.

...Right...meaning he was more powerful than the LT and all other Marvel abstracts, second only to Beyonder. You haven't 'pwned' anything.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Yes. But the Beyonder and MM never had the power shown.

Which means they were never more powerful than the LT.
Ever. Ever. Ever. Never.
Still spinning yourself dizzy.

Not "Ever" silly, more like AFTER the retcon.

"never Ever" would imply that pre-retcon Beyonder and MM never existed,
which again, is just another wonted fallacy coming from the same camp.


Why'd you even make a thread with CLASSIC MM,
if you're not going to consider who CLASSIC MM was?

... same ol same ol ... facepalm

You should've just used current MM.

I smell deliberate spite in the air.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Yes. But the Beyonder and MM never had the power shown. Which means they were never more powerful than the LT. Ever. Ever. Ever. Never.

You're dangerously close to spontaneously combusting.

What are you basing this on?

Originally posted by Enyalus
...Right...meaning he was more powerful than the LT and all other Marvel abstracts, second only to Beyonder. You haven't 'pwned' anything.
He was more powerful than an LT that had did NOTHING.

Originally posted by fangirl101
He was more powerful than an LT that had did NOTHING.

See Mr. Master's post for LT's pre 1986 feats...

Originally posted by Enyalus
See Mr. Master's post for LT's pre 1986 feats... They sucked. They weren't anything beyond multiversal. There was only the multiverse.

Originally posted by fangirl101
They sucked. They weren't anything beyond multiversal. There was only the multiverse.

Then how did they suck if his feats were multiversal in a multiverse?

Originally posted by fangirl101
They sucked. They weren't anything beyond multiversal. There was only the multiverse.

Okay? So he didn't need to use any extremely uber power. LT's power and position was not retconned. What he could do in 1986 was the same as what he did in 1992 (Infinity War). MM was above him still.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Then how did they suck if his feats were multiversal in a multiverse?

That was the limit of his power. He was the judge of all marvel reality. As TOAA bought more real Estate he gave the LT the keys.

Since when does the LT need feats? We all know what his position is, what more does he need?

Originally posted by fangirl101
That was the limit of his power. He was the judge of all marvel reality. As TOAA bought more real Estate he gave the LT the keys.

So his multiversal feats then suck NOW because the MU is bigger now even though it was only a multiverse when these feats happened?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Since when does the LT need feats? We all know what his position is, what more does he need?
His position was 4th down the ladder in the secret wars.

Originally posted by fangirl101
His position was 4th down the ladder in the secret wars.

Yes! MM was stronger than the LT! The LT is stronger than the IG!

MM beats anyone wielding the power of the IG. That's all you need.

In that short period of Marvel. It wasn't that way before.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yes! MM was stronger than the LT! The LT is stronger than the IG!

MM beats anyone wielding the power of the IG. That's all you need.
THE IG was the creator of the Universe. How can MM beat the very thing that created him? Epic fail.

By your logic does that mean we can say what Anti-Monitor did in CoIE sucked? I mean the DCU was alot smaller than it is now, comparatively speaking.

Originally posted by fangirl101
THE IG was the creator of the Universe. How can MM beat the very thing that created him? Epic fail.

What. The. F*ck?

Thanos was the first to construct the Infinity Gauntlet. After the Secret Wars storyline took place. So no, MM was not created by the IG.

What the hell is wrong with you? And besides that, MM was more powerful the LT. Who in turn is more powerful than the IG. Thus, MM >> IG user. Easily.

Originally posted by fangirl101

His position was 4th down the ladder in the secret wars.
False.

The Beyonder was a Supreme being, from another Reality
completely disconnected from the Marvelverse:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/761421_beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg

... so he doesn't count.

TOAA, (officially) didn't even exist, so he doesn't count either.

Owen was below the LT,
and THEN, when his potential was realized
he became more powerful than the LT,
a potential that's 100% Canon for Humanity in the future.

So, LT was the second most powerful entity in the Marvelverse,
and ONLY because Shooter had Owen reach a potential that's currently canon,
just like Protege was engineered to be born into that potential in the GOTG arc.

Originally posted by Enyalus
What. The. F*ck?

Thanos was the first to construct the Infinity Gauntlet. After the Secret Wars storyline took place. So no, MM was not created by the IG.

What the hell is wrong with you? And besides that, MM was more powerful the LT. Who in turn is more powerful than the IG. Thus, MM >> IG user. Easily. And who made the IG?

Nemesis apparently.

Originally posted by fangirl101
And who made the IG?

Thanos made the IG. Nemesis made each gem.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Nemesis apparently.
So the IG is like Nemesis's power. How could MM be more powerful than his maker? NOT.

Nemesis is a chick if memory serves.

How can MM be more powerful than Nemesis? Easy, because he is. Even POST-retcon MM is beastly. LT stated his power is without limit.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Nemesis is a chick if memory serves.

How can MM be more powerful than Nemesis? Easy, because he is. Even POST-retcon MM is beastly. LT stated his power is without limit.
How can he be more poweful than his creator? the creator of the IG was a supreme diety. MM can't be more powerful. which means The logic of the pre retconned cock stroked MM and beyonder is flawed.

Originally posted by fangirl101
So the IG is like Nemesis's power. How could MM be more powerful than his maker? NOT.

Mr. Master already explained this. MM reached Mankind's true potential. The Destiny Force, all that jazz. More powerful than the abstracts.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Mr. Master already explained this. MM reached Mankind's true potential. The Destiny Force, all that jazz. More powerful than the abstracts.
The Creator of the IG is no abstract. It is the creator of humanity. They could never be more powerful than thier creator.

Originally posted by fangirl101
The Creator of the IG is no abstract. It is the creator of humanity. They could never be more powerful than thier creator.

Celestials created humanity. *sigh* And Thanos created the IG.

Please stop.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Celestials created humanity. *sigh* And Thanos created the IG.

Please stop.
Thanos is not the creator of the gems. And the celestials are products of eternity. who is a product of nemesis. Thus Humanity will never be more powerful than the IG. Which means neither would Owen reece. The fallicy is exposed and thus revealed as stroking of characters that do not even exist.

The Infinity being thing got retconned. I don't think Nemesis is a supreme being.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The Infinity being thing got retconned. I don't think Nemesis is a supreme being.

Who ever created the Jems is a supreme being. So how can MM be more powerful than his creator? the one who made his universe?

So your entire basing on this debate is that,"He can't grow more powerful than his maker?"

Funny. I seem to recall The Fury being created by MJJ. And Fury killed MJJ. Now, Fury was not necessarily more powerful than MJJ, but he had what it took to kill him 1 on 1.

So your entire reasoning is flawed.

Beyonder to this day has the best feat in Marvel, the creation of the Beyond Realm, that and several statements alluding and outright stating Beyonder as a supreme being solidify him as the most powerful character to appear in Marvel.

Now, MM was the only one who could even come to any quantifiable distance to rivaling his limited powerset, when the LT was helpless in the face of Beyonder.

Now if you think that Living Tribunal was retconned, please provide a scan or bio to confirm this.

Beyonder, Molecule Man, and a few key elements of the story were teconned, nothing more.

So yeah, MM ftw.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Thanos is not the creator of the gems. And the celestials are products of eternity. who is a product of nemesis. Thus Humanity will never be more powerful than the IG. Which means neither would Owen reece. The fallicy is exposed and thus revealed as stroking of characters that do not even exist.

The LT is more powerful than the IG.

Owen Reece was more powerful than the LT.

Thus, MM >> IG. And Nemesis.

Case closed. Stop ignoring on panel evidence and making things up.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Who ever created the Jems is a supreme being. So how can MM be more powerful than his creator? the one who made his universe?

::sigh:: Nemesis doesn't even exsist in the 616 continuum. How can she be supreme?

Originally posted by Enyalus
The LT is more powerful than the IG.

Owen Reece was more powerful than the LT.

Thus, MM >> IG. And Nemesis.

Case closed. Stop ignoring on panel evidence and making things up.

No. The LT is more powerful than the Owen and every other human being ever.

Originally posted by fangirl101
No. The LT is more powerful than the Owen and every other human being ever.

Molecule Man and Protege would prove you wrong. I can't believe you said that. Just concede the argument.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Molecule Man and Protege would prove you wrong. I can't believe you said that. Just concede the argument.
Protege hasn't been born. And since he was absorbed.

Cool. I don't care. MM beats Thanos w/IG.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Who ever created the Jems is a supreme being.

So how can MM be more powerful than his creator?
the one who made his universe?
Dude, the Infinity Being was the original Supreme being of Marvel,
you actually got that right.

What you're missing is, that the IG is not the full power of the original IB.

The Infinity being used his Supreme power for two things:

To create all of current Marvel the first time around,
and to create the Infinity Gems.

The Infinity Gems need to be united completely in order to reach the IB's original level,
that's NOT 6 Gems (IG)
that's actually SEVEN Gems (Nemesis)

Unfortunately, by the time Nemesis was formed,
the Gems had become sentient,
so they were started struggling for control against Nemesis.

This made Nemesis extremely vulnerable,
and this is the reason Nemesis was defeated.

Still, even under this extreme vulnerability,
Nemesis was able to completely obliterate the 616 Reality (core of everything)
and the Ultraverse.

Nice.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Cool. I don't care. MM beats Thanos w/IG.
By Feats, The Ig is superior. The only thing that Classic MM has is his brief stalemate with the retconned beyonder. Neither were as powerful as portrayed. thus the only feat he has is against a retconned being. Barring that feat, he has no other comparible feats.

Originally posted by fangirl101
By Feats, The Ig is superior. The only thing that Classic MM has is his brief stalemate with the retconned beyonder. Neither were as powerful as portrayed. thus the only feat he has is against a retconned being. Barring that feat, he has no other comparible feats.

A brief stalemate against a being who was so powerful he created his own universe that was trillions of times larger than the entire MU...while holding himself back.

The IG can't touch that.

Originally posted by Enyalus
A brief stalemate against a being who was so powerful he created his own universe that was trillions of times larger than the entire MU...while holding himself back.

The IG can't touch that.
The Retconned beyonder has no such feat. So we must go by what other things classic MM did. Since the beyonder never actually did such things.

Originally posted by fangirl101

The Retconned beyonder has no such feat.

So we must go by what other things classic MM did.

Since the beyonder never actually did such things.
Is this a joke?

I mean seriously, are you high? (I'm being sincere)

This is so twisted I can hardly believe what I'm reading.

So, we should look at what classic MM did,
but we should dismiss/exclude Beyonder's feats/existence
although Beyonder was literally from the SAME CLASSIC era?

dur

Originally posted by fangirl101
The Retconned beyonder has no such feat. So we must go by what other things classic MM did. Since the beyonder never actually did such things.

You're using Retconned MM, who was retconned at the same time Beyonder was. All feats from that era are valid in this battle.

Reece wins

Originally posted by Enyalus

You're using Retconned MM,

who was retconned at the same time Beyonder was.

All feats from that era are valid in this battle.


He's gotta be joking, or high, otherwise , it's worse than I ever imagined.

======================================

Molecule Man was more powerful than the LT ... On Panel:

======================================


Here's Reed Richards' data-entry on the Molecule Man:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/729550_mmft0.jpg

"Reputed to be the most powerful being in this Multiverse,
at one time could control all matter, space and energy"

.........................................................................


Here's Uatu stating the same thing:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/729551_mm5vq2.jpg

"And now that he IS and KNOWS he IS mightier than all other beings of the Multiverse"

.........................................................................

.........................................................................


*** In Handbooks too! ***

.........................................................................


Molecule Man was more powerful than the LT ...
in the official Marvel Handbook of 1985:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/729552_mm1sq5.jpg

"Molecule Man, according to Uatu, is the most powerful being in ..."

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/729553_mm2ca0.jpg

... "Earth's Multiverse"

.........................................................................


In fact,


the Official Marvel Handbook clearly states:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/729554_mm3zd4.jpg

"The ONLY known limit,
to the amount of matter & energy that the Molecule Man can control,
is that is somewhere beneath the level that the Beyonder could control"

.........................................................................


So literally according to Marvel,

ONLY the Beyonder was above the Molecule Man.

...You seriously have the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe from 1985?


You're my hero.

Hi guys, I'd like to completely disregard all the evidence shown and make up my own version of everything to ensure I am always right, even if it is only in my mind.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You're using Retconned MM, who was retconned at the same time Beyonder was. All feats from that era are valid in this battle.
But the problem is, you compare them to the Guys like LT, who at the time was not number two. Was not considered as powerful as he is today. Let me try to make this plain.

Boxer A can beat all other boxers today.

Ten years ago, there were two other boxers who were better. Boxer B and C

So just by That, one could assume that Boxer B and C would be better than everyone else today.

But let's say Boxer A's record back then was only 10-0. And today his record is 1000-0.

There would be no way to compare boxer B and C to boxer A off his stats. You'd have to compare them to thier stats. Now let's say thier stats at the time were 150-0 and 750-0. Yes they were the best by far in the day. But couldn't be compared to boxer A's accomplishments today.

It's called retro-comparison. And it's quite clear that you cannot compare the abilities or position or feats of someone based upon past encounters with current abilities. That would be like saying DOS doomsday could kill Wonder Woman. Just becuz he killed Superman in the past. And Superman was the most powerful hero. That doesn't work. Superman is still the number one hero. But Wonder Woman has feats that outstrip Superman of that era. Thus DOS doomsday could not defeat her. Same logic applies when using the LT and the Preretconned cockstroked non-existant MM and Beyonder.

Originally posted by fangirl101

But the problem is, you compare them to the Guys like LT,
who at the time was not number two.
Was not considered as powerful as he is today.

Let me try to make this plain.
"make this plain?" ... durlaugh

This eloquence was directed at you, and it fits so well!
Originally posted by klintypooh

Hi guys,

I'd like to completely disregard all the evidence shown
and make up my own version of everything to ensure I am always right,
even if it is only in my mind.
... so accurate ...
Originally posted by fangirl101

Boxer A can beat all other boxers today.

Ten years ago, there were two other boxers who were better. Boxer B and C

So just by That, one could assume that Boxer B and C would be better than everyone else today.

But let's say Boxer A's record back then was only 10-0. And today his record is 1000-0.

There would be no way to compare boxer B and C to boxer A off his stats. You'd have to compare them to thier stats. Now let's say thier stats at the time were 150-0 and 750-0. Yes they were the best by far in the day. But couldn't be compared to boxer A's accomplishments today.

It's called retro-comparison. And it's quite clear that you cannot compare the abilities or position or feats of someone based upon past encounters with current abilities. That would be like saying DOS doomsday could kill Wonder Woman. Just becuz he killed Superman in the past. And Superman was the most powerful hero. That doesn't work. Superman is still the number one hero. But Wonder Woman has feats that outstrip Superman of that era. Thus DOS doomsday could not defeat her.
No offense,
but this is utter unrelated inconsequential gibberish to the umph degree.
Originally posted by fangirl101

Same logic applies when using the LT
and the Preretconned cockstroked non-existant MM and Beyonder.
The gobbledygook continues ... facepalm

Before Beyonder showed up, LT was top dog under TOAA. After Beyonder was retconned, LT was top dog under TOAA.

LT has always had the same power and position as the judge of the MU. His powers have never diminished or been retconned. That MM was more powerful than the LT speaks volumes about MM.

It isn't a low point for LT. The LT was shown to be well above the IG. And MM was well above the LT. That's it.

And for the record, when there is a point to be made, that people can't counter, they will try and insult. It's Ok. Someone else already made the same point in this thread. It's called LOGIC.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Before Beyonder showed up, LT was top dog under TOAA. After Beyonder was retconned, LT was top dog under TOAA.

LT has always had the same power and position as the judge of the MU. His powers have never diminished or been retconned. That MM was more powerful than the LT speaks volumes about MM.

It isn't a low point for LT. The LT was shown to be well above the IG. And MM was well above the LT. That's it.
No. Wrong. If TOAA existed when the Beyonder Showed up, Then The Beyonder wouldn't have been the most powerful being in reality. The LT also was not omniversal. There was no omniverse. So um, Exactly how is he as powerful then as now? That is retarded. Really. Retarded. The LT was shaking. WTF. Retarded.

Originally posted by fangirl101
No. Wrong. If TOAA existed when the Beyonder Showed up, Then The Beyonder wouldn't have been the most powerful being in reality. The LT also was not omniversal. There was no omniverse. So um, Exactly how is he as powerful then as now? That is retarded. Really. Retarded. The LT was shaking. WTF. Retarded.

1) The Beyonder was from a Supreme Being from a universe outside of the MU, so what you're saying is pure speculation.

2) The difference between a multiverse and an omniverse is...?

Originally posted by fangirl101

And for the record, when there is a point to be made,
that people can't counter,
they will try and insult. It's Ok.
rofl2

Yea, you're making a point about Marvel On Panel/Handbook confirmed facts,
by using an irrelevant analogy
involving "Boxers" ... "Superman" ... "Wonder Woman & Doomsday."

ka-dur

Originally posted by fangirl101

Someone else already made the same point in this thread. It's called LOGIC.
Who you think you fooling?

"someone else?" ... nice try ... but ... 'the eyes of god' comes in many forms.

Originally posted by Enyalus
1) The Beyonder was from a Supreme Being from a universe outside of the MU, so what you're saying is pure speculation.

2) The difference between a multiverse and an omniverse is...?
And Omniverse is a collection of Megaverses and Multiverses.

The Supreme being of the Marvel U just let another Supreme being waltz in and take over his shit? Not. There either was no TOAA back then, thus weakening the LT alot, Since that is where he gets his powers, Or The preretconned beyonder was bullshit.

Originally posted by fangirl101

And Omniverse is a collection of Megaverses and Multiverses.
False ... again, and again, and again!

Truth:

An Omniverse is every possible Universe in any given company:

(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook 2007 - Glossary)

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5307/o1ss7dg4.jpg


Btw. On Panel evidence agrees 100% with this bio:

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7541/omni3py5.th.jpg

"Reality ... Brian came to realize the size and breadth of Reality,
he learned of the Omniverse and its unending alternatives,
Alternative Realities ...
the Omniverse is the collection of All those possibilities"

.......................................................................


So ALL the Universes of the Marvelverse in 1985, was the Omniverse then.

The Beyond realm was completely separate/disconnected from this Omniverse.
It was a self contained beyond, beyond, beyond infinite Reality.
Originally posted by fangirl101

The Supreme being of the Marvel U just let another Supreme being waltz in and take over his shit? Not. There either was no TOAA back then, thus weakening the LT alot, Since that is where he gets his powers, Or The preretconned beyonder was bullshit.
More poppycock.

Dude, if you can't just accept facts,
why do you debate?

Reading your own fantasized philosophy really does it for you?

fangirl, PLEASE pick up what's left of your dignity and stop the foolishness. Mr. M has made it painfully clear that MM is > than the IG.

Capitulate and move on.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
fangirl, PLEASE pick up what's left of your dignity and stop the foolishness. Mr. M has made it painfully clear that MM is > than the IG.

Capitulate and move on.
Are you thru? Get off your knees. Wipe your face. And get your own mind.

I already gave a perfect example of retro-Comparing.

And it failed.

If you can't be convinced don't post here. You officially hit the point where you're running around in circles.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
And it failed.

If you can't be convinced don't post here. You officially hit the point where you're running around in circles.
It was perfect. There was no TOAA during secret wars. Couldn't have been. Thus the LT wasn't empowered by him. you fail. Wipe your chin.

Good stuff guys going with MM on this one.

Originally posted by fangirl101
It was perfect. There was no TOAA during secret wars. Couldn't have been. Thus the LT wasn't empowered by him. you fail. Wipe your chin.

You've still got him nearly stalemating a different Supreme Being, who had created a universe which dwarfed the MU a million times over, easily.

Originally posted by fangirl101
It was perfect. There was no TOAA during secret wars. Couldn't have been. Thus the LT wasn't empowered by him. you fail. Wipe your chin.

It failed. Like all your posts.

You change gears quickly. First the LT was 4th most powerful and now TOAA never exsisted? Stay consistent punkin.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You've still got him nearly stalemating a different Supreme Being, who had created a universe which dwarfed the MU a million times over, easily.
A different Supreme being? That was about as smart as a poodle.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
It failed. Like all your posts.

You change gears quickly. First the LT was 4th most powerful and now TOAA never exsisted? Stay consistent punkin.
Let me know when you are finished. Spit. Now come to your own conclusions dear.

Originally posted by fangirl101
A different Supreme being? That was about as smart as a poodle.

Yeah. You know. That Beyonder guy? Kinda corky? "Millions of times more powerful" than anyone else besides MM? Holding himself back?

That one. Who was a Supreme Being of a realm outside of the MU. And Reece practically stalemated him.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Let me know when you are finished. Spit. Now come to your own conclusions dear.

You reference oral sex a lot...

...Makes a guy wonder, is all I'm sayin'.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yeah. You know. That Beyonder guy? Kinda corky? "Millions of times more powerful" than anyone else besides MM? Holding himself back?

That one. Who was a Supreme Being of a realm outside of the MU. And Reece practically stalemated him.
Reece did no such thing. reece almost got wiped out. And by that point, beyonder had depowered himself. And being millions of times more powerful than the MU doesn't make one a supreme being. Being Infinitely more powerful than the MU would tho. And where was TOAA.

Originally posted by fangirl101
And where was TOAA.

According to you, he didn't exist.

And yes, Beyonder was the Supreme Being of a different universe outside of the MU. Read the arc.

The Beyonder was pretty much the supreme being of Marvel at the time. He represented the editor.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The Beyonder was pretty much the supreme being of Marvel at the time. He represented the editor.
If he was the Supreme being then, THE LT didn't get his powers from TOAA like he does now. Which means that he was far weaker than he his now. Case closed.

The IG wins no matter who is holding it.

Originally posted by fangirl101
If he was the Supreme being then, THE LT didn't get his powers from TOAA like he does now. Which means that he was far weaker than he his now. Case closed.

Where is it written that's where he gets his power now?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Where is it written that's where he gets his power now?
He's second only to the TOAA. It's whom he serves. His master. He references him all of the time. So if the Beyonder was the supreme being and there was no TOAA, then The LT wasn't as powerful as he is now.

I could have this stuff wrong.... but you'll have to excuse me as I don't know this stuff like you guys.

To me: Infinity Gauntlet = The Infinity Being = The marvel Universe circa 1985. LT is below the IB.

Beyonder held Millions or whatever more energy than the entire marvel universe... which is like Beyonder is equal to millions of MUs which makes him millions of IBs which makes him millions of IGs.

And if I remember secret wars, even the Mbodies including LT, asked Reece to help them vs. Beyonder, which makes Reece second only to Beyonder.. and also at least more than IB/IG but less than Beyonder. To me, the IB was the equivalent to TOAA back then...

ABC I don't care. because guess what. In the end this is how the fight goes... Pre-Retcon. vs. Thanos.

Thanos having mastery of the IG alters time so that Reece reverts back in time to the Reece that existed before he got his powers... therefore its Thanos vs a Reece with no powers. And Reece would no longer be uber god.

Far as I know reece, never really displayed true usage of powers over time, unlike thanos and other wielders of the IG.

In a fight like this, thanos's cunning pulls him far and away.

Owen Reece FTW, in a horrific curbstomp.

Rot, you cool, I loves ya good friend,
but, what the heck is the IG's time powers going to do
against a being that was more powerful than the LT?

... absolutely nothing!

Owen had complete mastery of Time/Space and Matter,
only to a much greater degree than the IG ever dreamed.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Reece did no such thing.

reece almost got wiped out.
Good lord, I wake up to find the incessantness has not stalled.

Reece, actually for a second almost had a chance at stalemating Beyonder:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/895925_mm1yn8.jpg

"I don't believe it, that little geek is holding his own against the Beyonder"

.........................................................................


Beyonder himself noticed:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/895919_owy.jpg

"You (Owen) had a chance and it's UNBELIEVABLE that you did"

.........................................................................


Now yes, Owen was about to get obliterated,
but still,
for Owen to even have the slightest of chances to stalemate a Supreme being,
even if it was only for a moment,
speaks volumes coming from the lungs of giants.

Originally posted by fangirl101

And by that point, beyonder had depowered himself.
False.

Beyonder had finally augmented himself back to full power by the end of issue #9:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/452729_mill.jpg

Beyonder had placed all of his power in a containment unit he created,
he actually became a mortal human being,
then he freaked out from the experience of being human,
and quickly took his power back.

A few pages later, Beyonder & Owen battled.
Originally posted by fangirl101

And being millions of times more powerful than the MU doesn't make one a supreme being.

Being Infinitely more powerful than the MU would tho.
hum

The Marvelverse was INFINITE!!!! (in 1985) ... INFINITE!!!

So the Beyonder was Millions of times more powerful than an infinity of power.


Please read a comic book for once!
Originally posted by fangirl101

And where was TOAA.
False.

TOAA has always been around, it just wasn't an official title then,
but since we know
TOAA is a character that draws/writes everything that takes place on panel,
then obviously we KNOW that TOAA was Jim Shooter. (Al Milgrom was the artist)

Jim Shooter: (Writer/Creator of Beyonder & Secret Wars I-II) also Editor-in-Chief of Marvel)

Jim was not only the writer/creator,
but he had the most powerful position in Marvel concerning what's allowed on panel or not.

I'm still laughing at the thought of Beyonder being a 'supreme being' in the true sense of the word (unsurpassable).

Was he vastly more powerfull than anyone there ? Sure. Was he unsurpassable ? Of course not.

Originally posted by Enyalus
What makes you think that?

The story.

By the characters present in that story ? Yes, he was.

In general, as in no other comic character can be stronger than him (a truly supreme being) ? No, he wasn't.

facepalm

Is basic reading comprehension too much to ask ? I miss the days where debates on this board were actually entertaining.

Originally posted by Enyalus
No one else has ever come close to that, DC or Marvel. your opinion is your own, but let's not go there. that will open up a messy can o' worms.

Originally posted by Galan007
your opinion is your own, but let's not go there. that will open up a messy can o' worms.

Yes'um massa.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He was millions of times stronger than the MU combined.

No one else has ever come close to that, DC or Marvel.
Are you kidding me? The beyonder was millions of times more powerful than a multiverse. Big Whoop. How about being infinitely more powerful. yes. TOAA and the Presence both are.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Are you kidding me? The beyonder was millions of times more powerful than a multiverse. Big Whoop. How about being infinitely more powerful. yes. TOAA and the Presence both are.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Good lord, I wake up to find the incessantness has not stalled.

hum

The Marvelverse was INFINITE!!!! (in 1985) ... INFINITE!!!

So the Beyonder was Millions of times more powerful than an infinity of power.


Please read a comic book for once!