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Who wins?

Makashi vs. Exar's double-bladed awesomeness and Vapaad master vs. Mr Orbalisk.

Tough. I wanna say the PT's take it though.

Tyranus and Windu.

Kun AFBs (amulet ****ing beams) Dooku into oblivion, then Windu has an autoscopy if Bane takes too long to kill him.

With or without his gauntlet, Kun's ancient techniques and being more powerful would beat either of the PT duo all-out. As a duelist - he is a genius; creating & mastering the double-bladed lightsaber within six months is proof of his technical prowess and his stalemate against Ulic indicates his applied skill. He'd win against Dooku blade-to-blade, but he'd probably lose to Windu's Vaapad.

Bane could take down Mace or Dooku too since anything goes.

Originally posted by Advent
Kun AFBs (amulet ****ing beams) Dooku into oblivion, then Windu has an autoscopy if Bane takes too long to kill him.
So, we assume Mr. 'Total arrogance' is going to randomly bust out the amulet blasts when he's never done so in any other scenario before. Can we say 'out of character?'

Moreover, how exactly is Dooku going to sit back, twiddling his thumbs while Exar puts distance between them, raises his arm and then fires? Exar tries that and he's liable to be missing an arm.


Yeah, that's totally proof of his technical prowess being above Mace or Dooku, two of the finest duelists who ever lived.
As a duelist, he's a 'genius' because he might have created the DBL? Especially when Jedi vs. Sith has thrown that into doubt? And while he may be more powerful in the Force, if he engages the other other in a duel?
Kas'im: One who is more skilled with a lightsaber can defeat an opponent who is more powerful in the Force.
Either Dooku or Mace could take on Exar in a straight saber fight.

Evidence he'd beat the ultimate master of Makashi blade to blade?

Mace is fully capable of handling Bane in a duel. He's even more capable of handling Exar.

I gotta say Advent, that was... unusually strange to hear from you.

This has probably been done before.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So, we assume Mr. 'Total arrogance' is going to randomly bust out the amulet blasts when he's never done so in any other scenario before. Can we say 'out of character?'

Err, so then isn't it OOC for Sidious to use a Force Storm in a fight because he only did so once? The fact is Kun never had any opponents worthy of being AFB'd besides Ulic who he dueled for a whole...1 1/2 pages before being interrupted.

"Mr. Total Arrogance"? Nein, Lightsnake. In fact, Kun has demonstrated quite the opposite, such as when he warned Ulic against attacking Coruscant even though Ulic just amassed great military strength and at his demise, he states that he "can't fight the combined might of all the Jedi" and chooses to release his spirit. I remember you put up an argument that Kun could have battled back against the Jedi, that he chose not to suggests he is not cocky; only confident.



I always thought they started out with distance; even so it's as simple as when Dooku pulls Force manuevers in close combat with Anakin & Kenobi fighting two-on-one!

Regardless, Kun doesn't need to use his amulets; he is stacked with aces up his sleeve.



1. I didn't say his technical talent was actually greater, only that it is -at least- a match for Windu's or Dooku's.

2. Both took years to master a form with a formal instructor. Kun mastered his own form by himself within six months if we believe Jedi vs. Sith. The double-bladed lightsaber is also consistently stated to be harder to master than a single blade even with a teacher. All-in-all, this speaks volumes for him & certainly puts him on level with the greatest of PT duelists.



So you admit Anoon does beat Yoda finally?

Take him on, yes. Take him down, no. They are all very close saber-wise, but when you consider Kun's powers, I don't see either coming out alive. He has a lot of offensive techniques that are completely alien to both of them: spirit-ripping, Sith magic, incineration from the inside-out, etc.



Physically, Kun holds the same advantage Anakin did. His lightsaber style is also going to be completely foreign to Dooku and coupled with his saber's dual-phasing ability (he can throw him off balance by adjusting the intensity of his blade) this will create a huge advantage.

In actual skill, his stalemate of the man who fended off an experienced Cathar Jedi while cut off from the Force speaks for itself. It'd be a tough duel, still Kun would win - where's the proof Dooku would?



Bane could -at bare minimum- hold Windu off for a long time, Kun aids FTW.

Originally posted by Lucien A
I gotta say Advent, that was... unusually strange to hear from you.

Well, it's Lightsnake hunting season, that post was just bait to catch unsuspecting Lightsnakes...seems it worked out good!

Originally posted by Advent
Err, so then isn't it OOC for Sidious to use a Force Storm in a fight because he only did so once? The fact is Kun never had any opponents worthy of being AFB'd besides Ulic who he dueled for a whole...1 1/2 pages before being interrupted.
If you can find me an instance of me making Palpatine using a Force Storm on individuals a crux of my argument...

And let's hear why, exactly, he didn't blast Ulic from the start. And number of panels hardly equals time seen dueling. The moment Exar 'can't claim an advantage' against the other 'master swordsman,' why isn't his arm raised and why isn't he blasting away?


In all of his personal fights, Kun is just that arrogant. In Ulic's case, he had a plan and Ulic was going against it. And 'against all the Jedi?' Well, you'd have a point, save for him immediately rushing off and using a ritual that he didn't fully understand that trapped himself in a temple for the next millenia.
Are you trying to argue with a straight face Kun isn't insanely arrogant? He's just not stupid.

Look at his general attitude towards almost anything. Vodo, Ood, Sylvar...arrogance is one of the things that sent Kun into the Dark Side.



Dooku's combat experience exceeds Kun's by a huge amount. and why is Kun going to do this from the start rather than taking out his saber and engaging like he always does? And raising one's arm with a Sith artifact, needing to lower the lightsaber hand in the middle of a close range combat against enemies like Dooku and Mace?
It doesn't strike me as a good strategy. More 'utterly suicidal.'


then it's a good thing for Dooku and Mace they have the jokers up their own.



he's demonstrated what to give him that credit? Giveeither a great fight, sure. But 'at least' a match? Mace Windu logically outclasses him.

He was already a saber prodigy. And what's this about his 'own form?' I'm frankly sick of this 'own form' nonsense. At no point, in the entire mythos, is anyone-ANYONE- with a DBL, from Kas'im to Darth Maul to Sarro Xaj stated to use anything resembling a 'unique form' with their DBLs. You use existing forms in a different style with a double bladed saber and that's it and if you want to talk about how different and special Kun's blade is? Let's see some evidence, because we see him swing it all of three times and in the only single one of those where the position of his hands can be seen, he's gripping it with both of them.

There is nothing to suggest or hint that Kun has created or used a 'unique form' rather than a pre-existing one with his saber.


It took Bane all of a few months to learn how to utterly nullify every single form and style and maneuver with the DBL from Kas'im of all people.
We also know Dooku to be a 'legendary' saber instructor, a master of most, if not all the forms given that he teaches them to Grievous...we have Mace, who invented his own form to complete Form VII and




It'd be possible in some scenarios, though Yoda'd likely still take him.

Oh, right. And he's demonstrated either them in an on the fly combat scenario when his saber is out when? The spirit ripping required the help of Kyp Durron and Luke totally caught in the worst scenario.

Let's see him try these on someone head on. Capable of defense. On master level like Mace and Dooku, two Jedi of extraordinary power who aren't doubleteamed, caught off guard Jedi or impulsive apprentices or Aleema. The difference? Dooku and Mace can defend themselves. Unless you want to argue that a 'surprised, double teamed from two fronts' Luke or Gantoris have even the fraction of defensive force ability that Mace or Dooku will have.

Oh, yes, they can and possibly will kill him. Neither is known for letting up in a saber match and given that both will be on the defensive with Force abilities and probably not going to lean back while Kun gathers up the power to unleash an attack, Kun needs to get by on his saber skills.



Oh, yeah, it's not like Dooku's usage of a curved hilt isn't going to have an advantage-which we know from the Bane duology, it does give the user an advantage. and when will Kun's 'style' be foreign to Dooku? He's encountered every form. He's encountered Double bladed users...
In other words, Kun has no definitive style edge over Dooku. Dooku's curved hilt gives him the advantage there, though.
Nor are dual phase sabers rarities. Luke even commented they were a 'fad' among Jeid at points and Corran Horn had no issues constructing one.
Given that the usage of a curved hilt blade was giving Bane a complete advantage over Raskta Lsu, who has far more experience with a saber than Kun did...Dooku's got just as much an advantage over Exar. If Exar even has an advantage there at all.

You mean 'constantly ran away while briefly fending off at points' from the Sylvar who hadn't seen combat with another bladesbeing in ten years, right?

Being able to take on people like Mace Windu, General Grievous,

Where's the proof Kun would? You've provided none of it. Just that "he's good.' What puts him above Dooku there exactly?

Dooku's ability to use the force in combat is noted as a rather unique talent at multitasking in combat. When it comes to fights? He's faced Mace Windu, was superior to General Grievous, destroyed Tholme and Sora Bulq simultaneously in a fight while not at his best-without taking so much as a singed cloak from both. To drive that point in: He fights Tholme, a Jeid who was trained by Anzati in some of the deadliest secrets in the galaxy, is a dueling master, a brilliant Jedi and fighter, at the same time he takes on Sora Bulq, noted as a master of every single Saber form, a Jar'Kai user, considered one of the finest swordsmen in the Order and a master of Vaapad to boot...and he wins. he takes them both on with sabers and almost casually blasts Sora to the ground with force lightning and then easily deals with Tholme.

Sora and Tholme both note he's not fully recovered from his duel with Yoda yet, too. the Attack of the Clones novel describes his Makashi mastery as 'unmatched.' He bests Quinlan Vos with no trouble, broke through Kenobi's Soresu without many issues and was considered one of the most skillful Jedi the Order ever produced. And only got better as a Sith. Yes, Dooku can take Kun down.


IF Kun does that. Not even considering that Mace takes on Kun while dooku holds off Bane. Given the sheer amount of force Dooku is shown handling, his own precision being Bane's nightmare and being intimately aware with the curved hilt saber, he'd be more than capable of holding Bane off while Windu takes on Kun. and is very, very capable of killing him.

LOL@Bane holding off Mace at a bare minimum. Pass what you're smoking advent.

Dooku and Mace lose the force contest, win the sabers, and should probably lose the all-out.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If you can find me an instance of me making Palpatine using a Force Storm on individuals a crux of my argument...

That was an example. The point was that versus matches are OOC in general. They are on paper duels; we don't have to limit skills since we're not dealing with storylines.



It's possible that those amulets cancel each other out. It would explain why the ancient Sith don't blast each other. Another explanation is that the duel is cut very short, because it was. Doesn't matter since Kun has shown that he is willing to use the gauntlet, ergo he can in a vs match.



The question is will it affect the fight? The answer is an obvious "No". There's no proof Kun's attitude would change anything or that he wouldn't blast Dooku as you were saying.



Very true and experience counts, but the gap between Yoda & Sidious was...huge. Vodo & Kun...huge. Qui-Gon & Maul...huge. Dooku* & Anakin...huge.



"Always does"? Not against Odan Urr or Sylvar where he used the Force to dispatch them. You can't judge him from a few opponents anyways; there's not enough evidence to assume he favors one over the other.



He wields a double-bladed lightsaber with one hand...he has two hands.

Remember also - he can decrease the energy in his blade so that their lightsabers pass through it. They wouldn't know, thus losing their balance & be wide open for an attack.



Windu only has two - Vaapad & shatterpoint (moot). Dooku doesn't have any cards to play here.



Uh, pretty much everyone AFTER Kun was TAUGHT how to use their double-bladed lightsabers, therefore they aren't creating a style from scratch like Kun.

Kun had to create a unique style because there were no instructions on how to mesh a current style with a DBL-bladed lightsaber. That he could even do that without a teacher or without pre-exisiting knowledge of the saber says much more about his technical skills than the fact the style was unique.

Plus all those others used an extended hilt, Kun's is the size of a normal one which means that he uses it differently than everyone else



Which just suggests that Bane is more talented than Windu & Dooku - what Bane & Kun have done is not commonplace. Mostly everyone takes years to master any single form whereas Kun completed the most difficult to use lightsaber type in 6 months with no formal master! If you want to talk logically, then Kun is a saber genius above everyone in the PT.



He wouldn't need any help in the living flesh where he would be infinitely more powerful than his spirit + greenhorn, 16 y/o Kyp. His Sith magic is like using Force lightning in a fight, it can be done.



Luke had his lightsaber activated, the double teaming was irrelevant since he still had time to defend against the attack but couldn't because he wasn't strong enough. We've seen cases where power negates Force techniques, post-DE Luke didn't have it or any defense.

So there's no proof two guys who know jack-all about Kun's powers could defend against them.



"Gathers up power"? AFBs fire when user ready. Most Force powers don't require more than one second to use. Kun's saber skills are good enough, which is why it comes down to the Force; he wins there.



Dooku exerts himself with the Force more than Kun because he is old and less staminous. This doesn't help here because Kun is actually stronger physically by leagues and Force-wise. His Force abilities eclipse Dooku's. He's fast enough to contend with Ulic who was trained to attack with lightning fast strikes by Arca, demonstrated where he leaps & beheads an ancient Sith Lord's spirit-possessed armor so quickly that the warrior couldn't even bring up his saber.

Vodo was a skilled master (*duh!*), who was so precise that he could find Kun's balance point during the midst of movement & exploit it. But as we saw later during their second duel in TSW, Vodo cannot penetrate his defense and gets slayed effortlessly, so Kun must've learned how to handle precision. This could be comparable to Makashi's bladework, albeit I'll admit that Vodo is not as good as Dooku.

Dooku was struggling with Anakin's strength, speed, stamina & skill - he was getting tired, which is what would happen against Kun. As for your points:

- The advantage is pretty small from a curved hilt as far as I can tell.

- No DBL-blade user is like Exar; unique hilt, unique style.

- Dooku won't know it's a dual-phase, so Exar maintains that advantage.

- "Fad at points"? Can you be clearer? Which "points"?

- Makashi would have a hard time defending against Exar's hammer strikes & brute strength.

Advantage: Kun. Now support your side, put some context into it.

No proof she hadn't fought. It's apparent that she still trained and kept up on her skills however as that is the job of a Jedi Knight.

He also wasn't even trying to kill or harm her at all, she was.

Kreia says that being cut off from the Force is like losing all of your senses at once. She tells that Jedi rely on the Force more than they know. Now Ulic had been stripped for a decade (deteriorated skills) and had less than a decades worth of training to begin with. So he was fighting an experienced knight tapping into her emotions (as with Obi-Wan/Luke, this makes her even more deadly) who had the Force to amplify her and grant her precognition.

A feat never accomplished before or again, his natural affinity for a blade is probably the greatest we've seen yet. Just imagine him in his prime where he stalemates Kun among several other feats .



^ See above post.

Your proof is like me saying Kun wins because he stalemated one of the greatest lightsaber users the galaxy has ever seen. Kun has most of the relevant advantages for victory against Dooku and he is as skilled at the very least. Contextual evidence is more convincing than feat wars.



It's not that Dooku's "multitasking" is rare, it's that Form II is. Makashi leaves a free hand, all other forms are used with two hands unless user variants like Kun.



- Not recovered from Yoda? Makes no sense since Dooku wasn't injured at all and had...hours/days to recuperate.

- Sora was in a near-fatal crash during Geonosis, so he wasn't in good shape. If he was, then Dooku had to have been in perfect condition.

- Tholme never won any duel he was in; he is not a dueling master; he sucks.

- We've seen cases where two-on-one doesn't do as well as one-on-one (TPM, ROTS). Even four-on-one caused problems for the group since the only good one out of them had to focus on protecting his companions. Tholme has never proven himself particularly skilled with a blade...

- He did not break Kenobi's defense with a lightsaber, he used the Force.

- Quotes that I posted originally are meaningless. Or Kun isn't also one of the most powerful beings ever to exist?



Dooku would do worse against Bane than Kun...but let's take one thing at a time 'cause I hate these so often made huge double posts!

A few things, don't want to get into this heated pissing contest.

1. You say there's no proof Kun couldn't use the amulet blasts during a fight. I'll say there's no proof he CAN use it in a fight against another force user, especially someone as powerful as Dooku, or Windu.

2. kun didn't create the saber or the style. JvsS retconned that. So the argument that Kun's style was unique and died with him, is dead.

3. There isn't one iota of proof that Kun is better or even on par with Dooku or Windu. You'd make more of an argument for Bane, who would most likely take Dooku but wouldn't fare better than Sidious did against Mace, unless he relies solely on the force.

What!...We're not getting heated or pissing??...Well, maybe Lightsnake is...you know how much of an overactive bladder he has. Don't be afraid to enter the convo, Darth Sexy. We won't bite. It's more fun with more people plus we have different views so we get more out of it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
A few things, don't want to get into this heated pissing contest.

1. You say there's no proof Kun couldn't use the amulet blasts during a fight. I'll say there's no proof he CAN use it in a fight against another force user, especially someone as powerful as Dooku, or Windu.

2. kun didn't create the saber or the style. JvsS retconned that. So the argument that Kun's style was unique and died with him, is dead.

3. There isn't one iota of proof that Kun is better or even on par with Dooku or Windu. You'd make more of an argument for Bane, who would most likely take Dooku but wouldn't fare better than Sidious did against Mace, unless he relies solely on the force.

1. Mace needed a lightsaber to block Sidious' lightning (dark side energy same as blasts) and struggled. You can't block the amulet beams with a lightsaber, so you need to use your hands.

What happens when they try to defend against it? The exertion required to block against an attack of that magnitude would be a considerable amount of power, & Kun can fire with no downtime & it gets twice as strong each time. Plus there's a huge element of surprise 'cause they've never seen anything like it before. I'd like to know what makes you think they could stop it.

"They are powerful" - Kun is more powerful & so is his pimp hand where the gauntlet lies.

2. JvS is a fallible, in-universe source. The Ep. I Visual Dictionary says that Exar Kun built the first saber ever in Maul's entry, the databank says Kun was the 1st recorded to have one.

Also it would be impractical during that time since the Jedi had to fight with battery packs that had chords to charge the saber - a DBL-blade would be extremely hard to use because of its already limited movement. No proof there was a style in that holocron if it existed, much less one Kun could use. So JvS is retconned by Advent.

3. Did you read my posts?

1. Mace needed a lightsaber to block Sidious' lightning (dark side energy same as blasts) and struggled. You can't block the amulet beams with a lightsaber, so you need to use your hands.
I never claimed Mace or Dooku or anybody could block the amulet blasts with their hands. I simply said you have no evidence Kun could even use the blasts in an all out fight with other force users.


Again this is assuming Kun even uses the amulet blasts or has the ability to use them against other force users, especially powerful ones. To even have the chance, he'd have to get distance from his combatants, which is easier said than done, if not really impossible. And this is assuming Kun doesn't get sliced into bits by Mace or Dooku.




Are you serious? Lol. Advent, it's been retconned. And please, show me these other sources. But if you're going to play the "its fallible!" game, I guess the other sources are as well, except it's a retcon and therefore valid.


Kun was NOT the first to create the blade, it was done by the exiles whether you think it was logical or not due to the chords. If Kun was not the first to create that particular blade, then he didn't create a unique style for it. Once again, JvS retcons your sources, I don't care how sexy escape finds you.



No, I'm sure they were devilshly sexy and full of witty banter.

Originally posted by Advent


That was an example. The point was that versus matches are OOC in general. They are on paper duels; we don't have to limit skills since we're not dealing with storylines.
Oh, so we don't take anything resembling character and intentions into the fight? When was this a stipulation?
It never has been part of the equation. Ever


It's 'possible?' Let's see some evidence of that

Or it's not nearly as effective to use it on another Force User.

He's shown to use it in one singular occasion when he embraces the Dark side in a time of desperate need. Kun has not demonstrated he can use the gauntlets in a vs. match.
Ergo there's no reason to believe he can or will.



Oh, so "Prove he WOULDN'T just blast Dooku!'
Ridiculous. EVERY OTHER FIGHT, he's drawn his saber and gone down to it. At no point has Kun deciding "I'll just stay here and blast people!"
Even when he was surrounded by four Jedi on a hostile planet. Even when he was looking at Ulic and Aleema sucking their faces off, he chose to announce himself and pull out his saber on Ulic.

Really seems like a guy who'll stand there blasting things like a lunatic.


Vodo had 'experience?' Based on what? Three singular conflicts in his entire lifetime there's no evidence he was involved in whatsoever? And Palpatine and Maul were specifically trained to kill Jedi. Dooku's experience...it kind of trumps Kun's. And his abilities don't hurt.



When did he 'use the Force to dispatch' Sylvar? He force pushes her when she screams at him. In the other instance he tells Kargath to 'deal with her.' And with Odan, he was a BIT pressed for time with the apprentices about to enter the room. Think they might have noticed the sound of a saber being ignited? Kun standing above Odan's charred corpse or sliced up robes?
Methinks they might have some objections


No, he doesn't. He holds it with one hand at one point-so does Maul. He twirls it with one hand before he attacks. So does Sarro. He swings it with...when he fights Ood...two hands. Apparently, he's grabbing it with two hands when he slices through Vodo the second time. The other time? His hands are not visible.
So let's quit the 'He wields it with one hand' rumor.

Yeah, seems a GREAT strategy. Never mind this is one of the saber techniques from the time of Mace and dooku they'd be familiar with

Utterly precise attacks that Mace and Dooku use, plus total familiarity with this tactic as it's kind of from their time?
Is Kun suicidal as well as arrogant?



Curved hilt saber. From the Bane books we know it gives the wielder a HELL of an advantage against someone unfamiliar with it. If Raskta Lsu hadn't yelled at Farfalla to be careful of it, Bane would have taken his arm immediately.
and Dooku's only an ultimate master of the ultimate dueling form. Seems 'a card.'
And why is Shatterpoint 'moot?' It would lead to him figuring out the mood to exploit, the move to use at the right time or allow him to slice Bane's hand off by giving him an indication that his wrists are vulnerable.

Kun by contrast? Has no cards against them.



Yeah, except he was quite possibly FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS from a Holocron. That means he's creating nothing from scratch, he's learning quickly, there's a difference.

Except following the Jedi Exiles' instructions on the subject, apparently.
Given that the Ancient Sith brought at least three holocrons on their invasion, why is it far fetched that Sadow or Nadd left one on Yavin 4, now?

Except you keep ignoring that new evidence more than implies he didn't create a damned thing. and it says nothing about his abilities being superior to two fighters who had shown far more by way of combat .

Prove it. No evidence in the comic whatsoever. By this logic, Sarro Xaj, given that he uses such a HUGE hilt in a ten foot weapon, MUST be using a different style. Asajj Ventress, who uses a double curved hilt DBL? Her style must be just as unique.



And Dooku or Mace are 'commonplace,' right. It suggests Bane is more talented than Kun. It doesn't suggest greater abilities than Mace or Dooku

When was it stated to be 'the most difficult to master' now? Just that it was 'difficult.'
Here's a hint: Being a pathetic gary stu with incredible learning ability doesn't make you a better fighter than people who were saber prodigies of comparable ability with decades to hone their abilities. Dooku, Mace and Bane leave Kun in the dirt when it comes to technical ability. Especially given that the apparent first time Dooku faced Vaapad coupled with Jar'Kai in a life or death fight? He won. Solidly.

Mace: Proven to have created a style
Kun: Didn't.
SUCH a genius! OMG, he has an insane learning rate! What a speshul little guy he is! By that logic, Luke Skywalker, who, within six months of picking up a saber with no prior training was fighting and killing Dark Jedi like Kharys is a saber genius who dwarfs Kun and Bane.
I wasn't aware learning aptitude suddenly translated into direct combat ability. Unless you can prove how long it took Mace and Dooku to master Vaapad and Makashi?



He wouldn't need any help in the living flesh where he would be infinitely more powerful than his spirit + greenhorn, 16 y/o Kyp.
Oh, riiight. Which is why he never did this to anyone while he was alive. Probably because Jedi of incredible power can *Gasp* DEFEND THEMSELVES! It's not like putting up defensive barriers is the first things Force Users do in a fight

And Mace and Dooku won't defend themselves and will of course let him do this...why? Dooku is noted as a skilled multitasker in combat. Kun is never noted as such. Dooku is more likely to blast Kun's ponytail off with force lightning before Kun uses Sith magic in a fight



He had his saber activated? Strange, seems he dropped it. And no amount of defense will save you when you are ALREADY HIT. Kyp distracted him first, then Kun joined in from behind when he couldn't defend. Kol Skywalker was shown blocking force lightning. He couldn't defend when Darth Nihl was frying him from behind.

Or more logically, Luke, in the worst position possible, while surprised and double teamed from two sides couldn't defend in that situation.
Guess who don't have that problem? Dooku and Mace. In fact, they've both got quite the defensive capabilities.

Yeah, Mace "I'm one of the guys allowed to study Sith Holocrons" Windu is totally ignorant of the abilities of one of the Jedi Order's greatest traitors. Count "I have great experience with Sith Holocrons and a great knowledge of Sith history" Dooku, who quite probably had access to the Telos Holocron which coincidentally contains just about all of what Kun would have known is going to be totally ignorant.
Nevermind that Kun needs to do it in conjunction of a duel-he's never shown the ability to do so, do it to break through two incredibly powerful Masters' defenses and and do it without losing a head.
Chances= bad.



Prove it. Quote now. All we see are drawing showing it firing.

Except he doesn't. His enemies have demonstrated superior skill in saber abilities and in direct combat in a match? Dooku, who blasted Sora Bulq across the room with a gesture, has shown more with offensive force abilities in the midst of a duel. Kun's powers are not SO much greater than the both of them he can trounce them with a gesture when they're fully defending themselves. Both are more experienced, more combat savvy and more intelligent than he is.




'By leagues?' Oh please. Lay the 'But the GROUND shook when he WALKED!' one on me again. Dooku's said to be one of the most powerful Jedi the order ever produced who only got stronger as a Sith. Given that it's Kun's nature to just got the saber match, he'd be screwing himself over. And physically

Pardon me if I roll my eyes at the idea that being trained in basic combat ability as well as defeating Warb Null is in any way indicative of great abilities. 'Ancient Sith spirits?' Yeah, that's in any way representative of great power or ability...I seem to recall those 'Ancient Sith' being nothing but utter jokes in the Hyperspace Wars.
Perhaps Warb was about to scream at Ulic to go away and leave him alone. Or throw a brick at him. Tried and true Ancient Sith tactics.
By contrast, Dooku defeated without any effort one of the greatest swordsmen of the Jedi order, Sora Bulq, a master of every saber form.
And strength is REALLY going to be an issue from someone who easily blocks blows one handed from General Grievous and Mace Windu. Y'know, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say in physical strength? Mace and Grievous eclipse Kun. As far as combat savvy goes? Dooku's got the edge on Kun and given how Kun fights? That's all he needs.

Wow, he could beat a Padawan! And pardon me if I doubt the skill and ability of Vodo's even being a fraction of Mace or Dooku's. I mean, surely we've seen Vodo do something other than 'Fight Exar with stick. Lose." Oh, wait. We haven't. So he was a skilled master. So were Coleman Trebor and T'chooka Duun. From what we saw, Sarro Xaj would kick Vodo's sorry crustacean ass and eat him for dinner.

Uh, yeah, Vodo's precision totally compares to Dooku and Mace's. I mean, Dooku and Mace have shown up amazing displays of saber ability. Or more likely...Vodo is an incompetent dolt taken totally offguard by a style he'd never seen before and had the ludicrous idea of fighting his powerful ex-pupil with a taped up stick.


Yeah, 'comparable.' Right. Let's see some proof. Because from what we've seen from the both of them, Dooku would kill Vodo with the utmost of ease.

he was struggling against Anakin because Anakin was tapping into his incredible reserves...according to the visual dictionaries, his power in the force was simply too much for Dooku. Going to argue that Kun's reserves come even remotely close to Anakin? Given Dooku is able to block and deflect blows in numerous sparring sessions with GENERAL GRIEVOUS, and take on Mace Windu in combat, I don't see Kun getting through on stamina and speed. Let alone the idea that Kun's skill exceeds Dooku's. It doesn't.

Yeah, it was only giving Bane a complete and utter advantage against Raskta Lsu, the experience Blade Master who slaughtered legions of Sith. If she didn't scream a warning, Farfalla would've lost his arm. Yeah, the curved hilt thing? Pretty big.

Prove it. NOW. Guess what? Hilt size doesn't mean a damned thing to 'style' in any canon that we've seen. Ventress and Sarro have different hilts. 'Unique style?' Based on...what? Oh, right, nothing! Just the idea that because his hilt is shorter and he hardly ever uses the thing, it must be totally and utterly unique cause Exar's so SPESHUL! Well, guess what? Nothing in canon saying a thing about unique styles. Nothing indicating the size of the hilt matters there and considering Exar apparently now learned via instruction from a Holocron from people who would have fought the Jedi with that sort of thing, it would seem it's not so totally unknown.

Yeah, like Dooku's never faced anyone with a dual phased saber despite being a lightsaber instructor at a point when the things were practically fads. Given that he's fast enough to face three separate blades on all sides of him, Exar needs to pull the trick off quickly or he loses the advantage, given Dooku's extraordinary combat reflexes and precise way of fighting. More logically, Exar has to keep very self conscious and continuously alter his moves to compensate for Dooku's curved hilt.
Given that Dooku had no problems taking on someone who's fighting style revolved around using a Shoto in conjunction with a normal saber to trip the enemy up. And he's able to take Asajj "curved hilt style double bladed saber" Ventress (How unique is HER style?), I sincerely doubt the enemy having a unique hilt is a problem to one of the Jedi Order's greatest dueling masters

Throughout the entire order. Hell, by Dooku's time, we know Trakata was in use, which is essentially what the thing is. Dooku kept himself up to date with dueling skills and the conventions that came with that. Given dual-phase sabers were dueling weapons, stands to reason he'd have at least a passing familiarity.


Just like he had issue defending from Mace and Grievous's hammer strikes and brute strengths. Considering Dooku knows Djem So well enough to teach it very well to Grievous...
And given Dooku's saber giving him the advantage, what's to stop Kun from losing an arm first go? Farfalla, someone with way, way more combat experience than Kun would have lost an arm to Bane by virtue of being completely unaware of the alteration the curved hilt gave.


Advantage: Dooku.
And stop your whining about context when just about everything you say doesn't bother taking it into consideration.
Yeah, Kun's ever demonstrated the saber ability that compares to Kun's. Right. Sure. Dooku beats Kun in skill, experience, precision, and has just as much of an unfamiliarity advantage. And heaven help Kun if Mace goes for him right off while Dooku holds off Bane.

Originally posted by Advent
No proof she hadn't fought. It's apparent that she still trained and kept up on her skills however as that is the job of a Jedi Knight.
Oh, no proof she HADN'T. I'm sorry, I thought the burden of proof would be on you. What with the war being over and no evidence of her whatsoever having been involved in the great hunt.
Is that the best you have here? And apparent from? She was staying on Cathar, seemingly doing little at all.

He briefly blocks her while fleeing. Do you think on even ground for any extended amount of time, he would be able to even hold back Johun Othone?
Really, this is an indication of Sylvar's skill level as much as it is of Ulic's

'Less than a decade?' How long was he being trained by Arca, exactly?
And again, blocking Sylvar's blows all of three times while fleeing from her, when there's no evidence Sylvar so much as touched her saber when living on Cathar in ten years...
And when he trained Vima, Ulic did teach her a saber and given that he activates it in Redemption and does a manuever with it, it might seem he hasn't let it sit at his side completely.

I'd say Kel'laden actually being on the verge of defeating Johun Othone with a pair of crescent cortosis blades to be pretty comparable.
And 'natural affinity probably the greatest?' Oh, come on, yes it's good. But blocking several blows from an enraged berserker never shown to have anything beyond 'passable' skills in time of war is not indicative of 'Saber God.' and something that keeps getting ignored: he didn't Sylvar. He didn't come close. He spends the fight shouting at her, running away and briefly blocking a blow when she closes in.


Mandalore is at least something? Warb Null? Oh, save us from the brick tossers, Ulic.



And I'll say again: He's shown anything superior to Dooku or Mace?

And my proof is that Mace and Dooku both defeated some of the greatest lightsaber users the galaxy had ever seen.

The most 'relevant advantages' in fairytale land maybe. On actual scrutiny, he's the one at the disadvantage in saber combat. Given that dooku is one of the prime warriors of the 'Prime of the Jedi', the greatest Makashi user of that time and one of their most experienced fighters who, like Kun, has fought one of the greatest swordsmen in galactic history. In conjunction with another great swordsman. And beat them both

Oh, is this code for admitting Kun lacks the showings? Because it seems Dooku and Mace have the contextual backing just as much.



Dooku's multitasking ability is described as 'notable.' And he strikes with two hands on his saber quite a bit.



Sora: I feel your exhaustion, Count. You were tested on Geonosis as well. I'll accept your surrender.


His gunship went down. Apparently he was either not aboard or escape it, because he was fine when he flew to Bakura with Tholme immediately after.

Errr...does being able to take on Sora Bulq and survive count? Or own a lot of numerous Anzati at once? Dooku comments he's a skilled duelist and he kills two Morgukai without even trying. he also takes on Quinlan Vos and implies later he is fully capable of killing Quin. he and Sora were good friends, too. When Jedi are experienced at fighting together and complementing one another, they tend to be a good team. Tholme's not Johun Othone

Kenobi attacks him first, Dooku takes the blow, breaks it, then grabs him with the Force.

He is. Dooku and Mace would be as well.



Hardly. Bane's prime advantage is gone and Bane unless Bane is stronger than Grievous...

Alright

Originally posted by Advent
What!...We're not getting heated or pissing??...Well, maybe Lightsnake is...you know how much of an overactive bladder he has. Don't be afraid to enter the convo, Darth Sexy. We won't bite. It's more fun with more people plus we have different views so we get more out of it.



1. Mace needed a lightsaber to block Sidious' lightning (dark side energy same as blasts) and struggled. You can't block the amulet beams with a lightsaber, so you need to use your hands.
Or just snatch Kun's arm when he's focusing everything on the amulet and snap it back.

Or you just throw up a shield and use the amount of time from the first one to put yourself in a better position.

Why hello, precog and logic. Dooku, with a vast knowledge on Sith history and Mace, a powerful Master won't realize that "Hey, he's raising the dark side thing like that and gathering power. Let's stand here and see what it does!"
By the time Kun has his arm raised, Mace or Dooku could easily fling a force wave at him, at that.

By how much? Not enough to matter.

And now that's retconned by new info. The New Essential Chronology retconned a lot. Point is? Kun's inventive capabilities are in question now and prior sources be damned.

Or they just changed that, too. We know Kun might have now built it following the instructions in an Exiles' holocron and given that the images of the Dark Jedi arriving at the Sith Empire are depicted with the Red Armored guy holding a non power pack using saber...
JvS stands until a later source contradicts it. Kun having invented a thing in the weapons and style department is unclear and should not be used as evidence

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I never claimed Mace or Dooku or anybody could block the amulet blasts with their hands. I simply said you have no evidence Kun could even use the blasts in an all out fight with other force users.


This is great. He was capable of using the amulet while being unarmed otherwise and attacked by a giant Sith Wyrm. He was capable of blasting Aleema Keto (probably without his amulet) while the Sith Sorceress did attack him via lethal Sith Magic. Yet he will be stopped from doing it by a single lightsaber wielder? Especially when VS fights usually don't start in melee combat and while Kun also uses his weapon with one hand only?



See above. And what? Excuse me. Kun is knocking out Aleema Keto for minutes with a casual Sith Magic blast. In his spirit form he reduces Gantoris into a burned skeleton and rips Luke's spirit out of his body. That aside from tossing people around in combat situations as if they were ragdolls. Meaning he probably doesn't even need his amulets.

And please. You really want to tell us that Kun isn't capable of applying force attacks if we start the fight with some distance between the opponent or even in melee combat, despite using his blade with one hand?



ROFL, Sexy. What a great application of logic that is.

You are aware of the fact that everything said in JvsS refers to the usual DBL design with the extreme long hilt, correct? Kun pretty much built a DBL with a usual length lightsaber hilt - and that, my friend, is a unique weapon design. And he also used a unique style for it just because of that.

And even if you want to assume that he got the design from some other source, that doesn't mean his style can't be unique. If you want to argue that, than Mace Windu couldn't have come up with Vaapad because he didn't invent the lightsaber...

Yet, even if you should be correct with the (imho hilarious) assumption, that neither Kun's weapon nor style were unique - you would still be confronted with the facts that:

a) Kun constructed the weapon and mastered the corresponding style in less than six months of time, which alone is enough to recall him as one of the most prodigious lightsaber wielders in the saga.

b) That his weapon still offers some nice advantages in terms of combat (altering the intensity / length of the blades etc.)

c) no member of the opposing team has ever confronted a DBL wielding master duellist.

d) Kun trumps Mace and Dooku as well in terms of force abilities, speed and possible even strength (certainly in Dooku's case).

So...what exactly do you want to argue here?

Originally posted by Borbarad
This is great. He was capable of using the amulet while being unarmed otherwise and attacked by a giant Sith Wyrm. He was capable of blasting Aleema Keto (probably without his amulet) while the Sith Sorceress did attack him via lethal Sith Magic. Yet he will be stopped from doing it by a single lightsaber wielder? Especially when VS fights usually don't start in melee combat and while Kun also uses his weapon with one hand only?
He used sith magic on aleema that had nothing to di wht the amulet. So he blasted a sith wyrm using both hands, which means he's going to be able to do the same against 1-2 powerful force users? Makes a lot of sense Nai. I love the "omg he will pwn everyone with his amuletz lol" logic.



Ah yes, assuming ANYONE he's pwned was anywhere NEAR the level of Dooku or Windu. Your example works more for my argument than it does for yours.


I guess using your logic, Dooku will continuously shoot sith lightning at Exar Kun to prevent him from using his amulets.





What I am AWARE of is the fact that you either:
A.) Didn't read JvS at all
or
B.) Have the reading comprehension skills of a paraplegic 3rd grader.
JvS states that Exar Kun developing his blade is a misconception, and that he used the design and specs from the holocron. You lose.


Except Mace is proven to have a unique style. Exar Kun isn't. The onus is on you to prove his style is unique.


Hilarious, yet true.


Please show me a source that states he mastered it.


Congratulations, so does a huge dick.


Prove it. Since you can't, we know they are familiar with the DBL so you lose again.

My argument is quite clear, Yours is full of opinions, misinterpretations, and downright nonsense. Bravo Nai.

Thank you, Borbarad. To quell the JvS myth further:

JvS is from Tionne Solusar, NJO historian four millenia after the GSW. She got that info from the Tedyrn Holocron. Since the Tedryn Holocron is a Jedi artifact, a Jedi must've recorded that. No Jedi could know where Kun's design came from & they'd be a fallible source to begin with, much like the narrator already is.

One line from an in-universe, third party source does not retcon anything! An OOU source, the New Essential Chronology to Weaps & Techs, says on pg 74:

"Other lightsaber variants also exist. Darth Maul's signature weapon was a double-bladed lightsaber with an oversize handle. The design for the double-bladed lightsaber originated with the fallen Jedi Exar Kun some four thousand standard years before the Battle of Naboo"

The official databank supports this. Kun developed it on his own. Fact. As for the form: There's no proof that a style was with it or that Kun would even use it. The battery pack's chord was connected to the hilt of the saber during the Exiles' era, therefore restricting movement to an extreme degree. So the Jedi would've had to adapt for that, Kun would not have to with the advancement of modern lightsabers.

This is important to consider since twirling the saber like Kun does would tangle the chord, cut it & cut off power to their lightsaber! So it is safe to assume that even if he didn't create the model (he did), he created an entirely new style. Evidence firmly supports me, your evidence is "Tionne said it, it must be true!". Uh....NAH!

Not to mention, it states that the imaginary holocron might of came from the Exiles. JvS is not conclusive proof of a retcon when it doesn't even have its facts straight nor does it make sense nor does it have authority over OOU.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true!

As a spectator, reigning judge, and chief servant of my Master, the Great Publius, I remain unconvinced on certain issues. I'd prefer some more elucidation regarding Kun's obvious superiority over Dooku or Windu (not that it isn't the case, but it doesn't seem spectacularly considerable) or how his defeat of Vodo is relevant whatsoever. Call me a hardliner, but I was never convinced that Vodo amounted to anything in terms of universal skill and achievement. He is certainly outclassed by the feats -- and by miles and miles, I might add -- that we've seen from Dooku or Windu.

So just for my personal benefit, could anyone direct me to answers about these two things?

So what you're doing Advent, is playing the pick and choose game, ignoring the fact that the newer material automatically retcons the older material. It doesn't matter if you think it's illogical or if it doesn't offer the explanation you want. It says that Kun was NOT the creator of the style, so that's it. It doesn't matter if he MIGHT have gotten it from the exiles, but he DID get it from the holocron. You're sexy and all but facts and retcon override your busty physique.

I wouldn't go that far. But I'd let her physique override me any day.

Her point is that at least two C-canon sources have omniscient narrators saying one thing, and a newer C-canon source has an in-universe author saying another. Two Infallible Sources >> One Fallible Source.

We've been through this, LS. Every time you get worked up you start acting stupid.

This is really dumb. Why is firing the Force-blast going to be any slower than firing off Sith lightning or a Force-push, especially when we see people fully extending their arms every time they do something offensive with the Force?

I don't know what part of "doubles in power" you're not getting. Mace Windu's tremendous strength couldn't hold back Sidious's lightning, even with the assistance of Vaapad, his lightsaber, and a superior position. These blasts double in power every shot, can be fired on a whim, and are easily powerful enough even in the beginning to blast holes through massive Sith wyrms and stone walls when used by an angry neophyte dark-sider.

Mace can't block them, and he won't be able to evade them any more easily than he can evade telekinetic assaults or Force-lightning.

Originally posted by Advent
Thank you, Borbarad. To quell the JvS myth further:

JvS is from Tionne Solusar, NJO historian four millenia after the GSW. She got that info from the Tedyrn Holocron. Since the Tedryn Holocron is a Jedi artifact, a Jedi must've recorded that. No Jedi could know where Kun's design came from & they'd be a fallible source to begin with, much like the narrator already is.
And the NEC was from Voren Na'al. Tionne has access to some of the best Jedi Holocrons and the Telos Holocron, suffice to say those might have some information on the matter. This isn't just Tionne's opinion.

Ok. Guess the Sith Empire is still 25,000 years old then. When was that first retconned? Oh, right, the NEC

Dealt with the former already. Until we get something else on the subject, it's in question.

Shown false already. Just look at the red armored Dark Lord presiding over the Sith. Look at the image of Ajunta Pall. Both have sabers with no power pack.

Yeah, that'd be logical. Except we see the Jen'Jidai using sabers with no power packs. Which kind of kills that theory.
Oh, and again...'new style?' I'll say this for the last time: Show me some evidence that Kun is using anything besides one of the basic seven.
and we assume he didn't create the model now, yes. unless, again, we take the road the Sith Empire was 25,000 years old. Considering only Voren Na'Al first said otherwise.

Whereas yours is "I'm gonna assume this isn't being retconned just because it's in-universe despite having used the 'out of universe facts being mentioned via in universe sources' before and those in-universe sources having retconned plenty beforehand given the NEC
So show me a source that's either G-canon or more recent.

All answered above. This argument comes down to "I don't want to believe it". Your arguments can all be answered by just using the way LFL has retconned things in the past. And what about 'doesn't have its facts straight?' That's a pretty absurd claim to make there....it doesn't have its facts straight because it's throwing this issue into question? This strikes me as rather similar to the fits being thrown over the NEC due to the Sith Empire's age. "Oh, it's in-universe! It doesn't have its facts straight!"


Feelings searched.

Originally posted by Faunus
Her point is that at least two C-canon sources have omniscient narrators saying one thing, and a newer C-canon source has an in-universe author saying another. Two Infallible Sources >> One Fallible Source.
There are two words for that: Oh well.
At least two-three sources were given as saying the Ancient Sith Empire was 25,000 years old. Know what retconned that? The in-universe NEC. One source, btw, was the out of universe New Essential Guide to Characters. In Universe material can retcon out of universe material.

Presumably as you need to raise your arm and then fire. Dooku and Mace require very little more than a flick of their wrist. It's a bit less difficult then raising an arm, aiming and then taking the moment to fire.
Just maybe there's a reason why nobody used the amulet blasts in actual combat.

They're blasts of pure, concentrated energy and if Hetton is any indication, a 'storm' of force lightning isn't hard to dodge if you've got the room to maneuver.

Given the agility Mace has shown? He's going to be evading them without any issue. Frankly, Kun will be lucky to be able to get many, if any blasts off on a mobile opponent without catching his busy partner in the blasts or before his enemy either takes his arm off or forces close quarter combat.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He used sith magic on aleema that had nothing to di wht the amulet. So he blasted a sith wyrm using both hands, which means he's going to be able to do the same against 1-2 powerful force users? Makes a lot of sense Nai. I love the "omg he will pwn everyone with his amuletz lol" logic.


And I love your total absence of logic.

Can you tell us once more why the same Exar Kun who can run circles around a Sith creation while blasting it with the amulet and who can raise his hand, walk through a lethal force attack and blast the person who did attack him, shall be unable to use his amulet before or in a melee fight?



Yeah, right. Because nowadays Mace and Dooku are familiar with Sith Amulets, Sith Magic and able to defend themselves against those, right. Oh wait. Dooku seems to have some trouble blocking his very own force lightning - how would he deal with anything that Exar Kun could throw at him? And Mace? The guy needs his lightsaber to fend of Sidious force lightning - which is impressive. But Kun's regular force attacks don't appear to be blockable with a lightsaber.



Even if he would do that - he would do so against Exar Kun who resisted the most powerful lightside technique there is and walked right through a lethal Sith Magic blast by Aleema Keto.



I'm afraid, little sucker. Next time you want to give out a lecture in reading comprehension, you might do that in front of a mirror.

Notice how JvsS (page 107) tells us that "the earliest record of a Jedi-expatriate-turned-Sith using a lightsaber" was Freedom Nadd in 4,400 BBY. On the very same page it lists the source for the idea that Kun didn't invent the DBL as the Tendryn Holocron. And what was that thing? Oh yes. A Jedi holocron...

So what?

a) If Nadd is the first recorded user of a lightsaber, how would anybody develop the idea that anybody used a lightsaber - much less a DBL - before that date?

b) We know that the Jedi, before the Dark Jedi went into Exile, where using regular swords. Even in times of the Great Hyperspace war, they were using lightsabers with power packs and a cable on their back for the reason that they weren't able to generate enough power for a stable blade without it. Now, really: A DBL would need twice the energy of a regular lightsaber, meaning any "pre Kun" DBL user would have needed to carry two of that power packs around to make his blade work. And then he would have needed to attach the power cable at the middle of the hilt (as there is no "end" to put it on). May I ask you how somebody should have fought with that thing?

c) Where the hell did a Jedi get the information from where Kun got his blade design from? And hell...from what "Sith Holocron" should Kun have extracted the design from? Sadow didn't use lightsabers, Nadd didn't use a DBL and the only other source would be the holocron that Kun took from Odan Urr - which he destroyed.

Simply put: It's absolutely stupid to assume that anybody, be it one of the Jedi Exiles, a Jedi or a later Sith Lord developed a double-bladed lightsaber before the end of the Great Hyperspace war. Such a weapon would simply have been impractical due to insufficient power supply in that era. And even if Kun did follow instructions from some mysterious Sith Holocron (which doesn't make any sense at all), that doesn't mean that he also found lessons how to wield such a weapon in the same holocron.

And nope. That it was written down doesn't mean that we have a "retcon" here automatically. Or shall we assume that post NJO Luke Skywalker life is threatened each and every time he faces a Droideka because Timothy Zahn thinks that would be a good idea? Did Sidious die multiple times before ROTJ as he claims in DE? See. Unless something is confirmed by an out of universe source, we can simply ignore it. The Sith Empire issue was also up for debate before "Evil Never Dies" and the corresponding article in Insider88 where released.



This is great. How many people did we see wielding around a DBL with one - constantly changing - hand, while adjusting the blade length and blade intensity in combat? None except Exar Kun. Great.



He outduels Vodo with that weapon. The same Vodo that trained pretty much everybody we see in the TOTJ comics. The same Vodo that was able to locate Kun's balance point and floor him in a split second. The same Vodo that was wielding a stick "more powerful than a lightsaber". I guess one would need some mastery with the weapon he's using to kill that dude in straight forward combat.



Congratulatioons for having nothing to say and instead of admitting that come up with some infantile reply. Really. The "K" in "KMC" doesn't stand for "Kindergarten".



Oh. Dooku and Mace are familiar with a DBL wielded with one hand while the blade length and insensity are altered constantly? You might give me the name of the being they encountered who wielded the weapon in that fashion.



Your so called "argument" consists of running to Lightsnake and cling to his coat-tails. Nice work, though. I bet a trained monkey wouldn't do worse.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Can you tell us once more why the same Exar Kun who can run circles around a Sith creation while blasting it with the amulet and who can raise his hand, walk through a lethal force attack and blast the person who did attack him, shall be unable to use his amulet before or in a melee fight?
Talk about absence of logic. His "sith magic" on Aleema had nothing to do with his amulet blasts or the amulet itself. To argue this point would be to argue against facts, which you love doing so much. Furthermore, he had to hold out both hands blasting a sith wyrm. Nothing says he'll be able to do so freely against powerful force users. But I love this antedeluvian "Kun could pwn anybody with his amulet blazstsz!!" logic.




What force attacks? The ones that were absent during his time alive? I didn't see him pwn anybody with his black snakes during his time alive. Nobody is arguing Kun's force superiority here. But what happens if Kun gets decapitated before he can unleash whatever it is you're talking about.



He resisted an attack by an average force user. If you're going to try and claim Odan Urr is anything ABOVE average, you prove it. Otherwise, it's not that impressive. And neither is Aleema's sith magic.


Notice how different things are listed in different holocrons. Hell one of the pages said Nadd existed 1400 years after Sadow. Your attempts to discredit JvS with your bullshit don't work.


This logic would make sense if you disregard all of GAOTS and their lightsabers, and the history of the lightsaber, which would pretty much destroy your whole argument.


My job is not to prove where Kun got the idea. The fact that it is stated that "the invention of the DBL is mistakenly given the Exar Kun when Exar Kun used the instructions of the holocron" is all I need to make a valid point. Your only defense is "omg its not canon or its in universe!#!"



Again, you rationalize whatever the hell you want, since rationalization against facts always provides a losing argument.


JvS retconned its previous sources about the DBL. Don't cry about it just because you don't like it.




How many people had access to the holocron that Kun had during Kun's time? None. Great.




Or the fact that Vodo has never seen the dbl. Ooops look how easy it is to trump your simple minded arguments.




Damn, embarrassing yourself has become a daily routine for you.



Well, lets point out the ways you've embarrassed yourself.

1. Assuming I go to lightsnake(the guy who also pwns your arguments time and time again), seeing as how I haven't talked to him in over a year.
2. If a trained monkey couldn't do worse, that says a lot about your intelligence and the pitiful rebuttals you've given. I know English isn't your native language Naive, but that's no excuse for the excessive stupidity you've exhibited.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Talk about absence of logic. His "sith magic" on Aleema had nothing to do with his amulet blasts or the amulet itself. To argue this point would be to argue against facts, which you love doing so much. Furthermore, he had to hold out both hands blasting a sith wyrm. Nothing says he'll be able to do so freely against powerful force users. But I love this antedeluvian "Kun could pwn anybody with his amulet blazstsz!!" logic.


Are you a moron? Oh,wait. I've forgotten it's Darth Sexy I'm talking to. To blast Aleema, Kun was extending his arm, using his own power to fire at her while walking right through Aleema's own attack. If he can point at her with his left arm - how would it impossible for him to do the same with the amulet arm?

And yes. He was using both hands to grip the amulet because he wasn't able to control it. And now you may have a look at the scene where he annihilates Nadd, apparently just minutes after that very incident. One hand.

So...where are the "facts" I'm arguing against? You are apparently assuming that Kun is neither able to lift his right arm to perform an easier task than he did when raising his left arm against Aleema Keto. And you also seem to assume that he gained no additional control about the amulet - despite the fact that he blasts Nadd away with it. Well. Who's arguing against the facts now, Sexy?




Did you miss the scene where he kills Odan Urr with a single force attack? The same Odan Urr who did take out Ancient Sith in direct confrontation. And this right after resisting the same technique that Odan Urr used to defeat those people? Did you miss how he knocks Aleema out with the above mentioned attack?

And what? Do you want to tell us know that he learned new techniques while in his weak spirit shape hardly able to speak with anybody? How very logical. Why not assume that Dooku can't lift a cookie with the force "because we've never seen it"?



He defeated Ancient Sith in combat. The same people that would, according to Kreia, make herself and the Exile look like children in actual confronation. I'm afraid. The guy seems to be rather powerful. And Aleema's Sith Magic? Yeah. We just saw her burning the skin of one of her servants off with a nice little blast of that. Who was the last person you saw reducing people to ashes? Sidious?



I don't have to discredit it. It does so pretty much on it's own. And thanks for coming up with another argument for my position. It's a vague in-universe-source based on more vague in-universe-sources. Fact. End of story.



Oh sure. Somehow we are thrusting JvsS on the single issue and ignore everything else said in the very same source? Great way of constructing an argument pal.

I recited the history of the lightsaber pretty much. I wonder how you've missed that. But wait...again I've forgotten that I'm talking to Darth "God I'm so ignorant that my head is one second from imploding" Sexy. We can see Odan-Urr wielding the cable-powerpack-variation of a lightsaber right in time of the Great Hyperspace War. The other Jedi shown are doing the same. So. You are, effectively, assuming that somebody in that time or (according to JvsS) 2,000 years before that, already had designed a weapon based on technology not even available in the time.

Yes. That sounds so freaking logical.



Erm, no Sexy. What is stated is the following:

"The construction and use of the first DBL is sometimes credited to Exar Kun, but according to the Tedryn Holocron, Exar Kun assembled his weapon by following instructions from a Sith Holocron "

So what exactly does that tell us, Sexy? That Kun's weapon is in no way unique? No. It tells us that he followed some unknown instructions from an unknown source in order to construct the weapon. What where those instructions? A complete blueprint of the weapon - or the simple idea to construct a lightsaber with two blades? We don't know.

So even if we assume this to be the truth, Kun's weapon could still be unique. And that even says much less about the style he wields it with or did you see something telling us that he got a matching weapon style from the same source? No?

Not that this would have any effect on this issue here. No matter what style and weapon design Kun was using - it was notably different from regular DBL design and the corresponding fighting style. So Mace and Dooku would be unfamiliar with it.



Wow. That must be the most stupid thing I've read from you so far. And that's quite an archievement, considering the bullshit you usually litter this forum with.



A retcon just happens when the continuity is officially altered. A statement within an in-universe-source doesn't qualify. And as I said above: It wouldn't change a damn thing.



And despite of that, you're still claiming that Mace and Dooku would be familiar with Kun's alternate DBL design and the corresponding fighting style...



Which means that Kun would also pwn Dooku and Mace because they didn't see the weapon before either? Yes. Great thinking that was on your side, moron.



I bet your mother tells you that when she wakes you up in the morning. In your case, she's absolutely correct. And please don't continue with that unfunny flaming attempts. You ever were nothing but a victim to me, you're still a victim and you will ever be a victim in that department.



Let's do a reality check: You can't even recognize a metaphor if it jumps right into your face and despite of that you attempt to lecture people on reading comprehension. Now, after being completely inable to understand the metaphor, thus revealing how dump you are, you want to lecture me on emberassment. The irony is killing me. How do you manage to get your shorts on in the morning - all by yourself. That's remarkable.



I know that "thinking" is a task you don't perform on a regular basis, but attempting to flame people with "I know that English isn't your first language", especially when those people usually destroy every line of thought you develop here, is even an all-time-low for yourself. But well...we can continue this discussion in German if you like? French? Islandic? See...

Usually I would pity individuals like yourself who possess an IQ that roughly equals that of a 10 metre long cartway. Just don't run around in front of me with a "I'm stupid! Hit me!" T-shirt and everything might be fine. And now you can focus on the topic or spent the rest of your trolling days on my ignore list, TDTD. Your choice.

Originally posted by Borbarad
]Are you a moron? Oh,wait. I've forgotten it's Darth Sexy I'm talking to. To blast Aleema, Kun was extending his arm, using his own power to fire at her while walking right through Aleema's own attack. If he can point at her with his left arm - how would it impossible for him to do the same with the amulet arm?
What the **** does his sith magic have to do with the amulets? Oh right, NOTHING, you bumbling idiot. Two different attacks that have nothing to do with each other.


By..Um..Sticking his hand through the spectral figure? Wow Nai, are you purposely trying to sound like a moron?


Except you have absolutely no argument here. I should call you captain obvious. You're trying to tell me Kun's sith magic had ANYTHING to do with the amulet or its blast, and then you are trying to tell me that Kun "Blasted" Nadd? I'm looking at my comic right now heir fuhrer, and there's no blast.





Really now? Who did he take out with that attack? Which, if ANY sith did he fight? Oh, you must have forgotten TOTJ was written before GAOTS. Odan Urr fights no ancient sith. After the battle he gets a sith holocron, while other jedi pursue Sadow back to the Sith Empire. There is no proof Odan Urr used this on anybody. And let's assume he did(so your argument doesn't look like a total failure), so what? Instead of seeing things in black and white like a simple minded baboon, look at the grey area. Odan Urr was 1,000 years old and Kun was pretty damn powerful. The level of a force attacks depends on the user's abilities, and the defense of the opponent.



Sorry bro, but you can't throw out the term like "ancient sith", and expect it to be applied to every ancient sith, and that's if you take Kreia's word. Aleema's sith magic is um powerful, against non force users. Other than her illusions, what the hell did she ever do against a force user?




Except it's not vague. You can call it "In Universe" all you like, but JvS has many holocrons that detail certain history. One stated that Kun did NOT invent the DBL. So you can argue and cry that your sources are valid while this one isn't just because it suits your argument, but it's been retconned.




No, it disproves your assessment that all of JvS is "in universe".


Don't worry Nai, I haven't forgotten that I'm talking to an idiot. Nobody cares about your assumptions. According to JvS they WERE using lightsabers either before or during the 100 year Darkness, so regardless of whether you think the technology wasn't available, the dark jedi were using lightsabers.




Except it proves that Kun wasn't the first to create the DBL, unless your reading comprehension is off. Just because they don't offer you every single detail that you require to make yourself feel better about your argument, doesn't make the statement any less true.


Except you can't prove it's unique or that he created it. The argument was in fact whether he was the creator of the DBL, and he wasn't.


So 4,000 years and many holocrons later, and somehow Mace and Dooku would still be unfamiliar with Kun's "unique" style, assuming it was "unique"?




While we've all had a laugh at your sad attempts at "logical debating" day in and day out.




When in doubt, Nai screams "IN UNIVERSE!#$$!$"




Mk pookie let me play your game. Kun is unfamiliar with Makashi and Vaapad/Shatterpoint, and loses a saber battle to either combatant. There we go.




How am I a victim when you can't construct a cogent argument, much less insult me properly?




holy shit, was that english? I don't even have to say "I rest my case" on that one. Come back when you can decipher your own bullshit.




Ah when in doubt, assume you've destroyed the other person's arguments. Well Nai, you have shown that you are particularly adept at delusions and denial. Congratulations son.



Seeing as how you can't stop embarrassing yourself, maybe you should do everybody else a favor and quit posting? Either way, your posts are hilarious so do what you'd like pookie.

Oh my f***ing god. That is so much bullshit that I won't waste my free-time by going through this point by point.

Amulet? Sith Magic? Why DS can't get simple point...

Really. Contrary to your assertions, which must be you "playing dumb" (at least I hope so) I didn't state that the amulet has anything to do with the attack that Kun hits Aleema with. I was merely pointing out that instead of raising his left hand and firing that Sith Magic attack at Aleema, Kun could also have lifted his right hand and fire an amulet blast.

Can you follow so far? I hope so.

Now if Kun is able to dash out force attacks while simply walking through opponents attacks or, seeing the action with Odan-Urr, can recover from devastating force attacks in the matter of seconds or, as seen, can jump around that nice Sith worm while firing his amulet, I don't see how anything Mace or Dooku could do - force wise - is going to stop him from using the amulet or any other force attack he can come up with?

Is that clear now? Did you get it? Or do I have to find somebody who speaks fluent moron?

Odan-Urr and Aleema Keto? Are they powerful?

One must love your sudden amnesia concerning Odan-Urr, Sexy. I mean what is this here?

http://mitglied.lycos.de/veilofdarkness/OdanSith.jpg

Oh yes. It's Odan telling Nomi that he became adept to blocking somebodies connection to the force when the Jedi drove the Ancient Sith to extinction. Your comment regarding FotSE is absolutely hilarious in this context. Unless you want to tell me that the complete Sith race, inhabiting more than 100 planets, was either fighting on 3 planets with Sadow or manning the fleet of Ludo Kressh that Sadow confronted when he returned.

So Odan did confront Sith Lords in combat and blocked their connection to the force. And usually, Jedi don't get weaker in force abilities when they reach higher age. Odan was physically weak perhabs which might have made it easier for Kun to kill him. But the initial attack of the Jedi, which Kun simply resisted, must have been quite powerful.

And regarding Kreias comment: Excuse me Sexy. Can you please at least attempt to form a coherent argument? Either all in-universe sources (characters, holocrons, texts etc.) are questionable - or none is. You can't pick the ones that fit your opinion and scream "canon" or "retcon" and ignore anything else at will. That doesn't work. If the holocron must be correct, the same is the case for Kreia. End of story.

That leaves us with Aleema Keto. Did it ever occur to you that Nomi Sunrider, one of the eras prodigies, had apparent problems with countering Aleema's illusions? That aside, it still requires some nice amount of force powers to instantly burn off the skin of a human being - no matter if the victim is a force user or not. Not to mention that the narrator of DLotS lists Aleema as a "potential rival" to Exar Kun and she gives Ulic the Sith amulet stating that it "perhabs will give an advantage over ", implying that Ulic and her were equals at that point in time. Is that powerful enough for you?

The Double Blade - what sources can we thrust?

And now let's get to the core of the pile of bullshit you've produced this far.

You are aware of the fact, Sexy, that holocrons aren't sources containing material from some omniscient beings, correct? They contain recordings of individuals within the SW universe. In this case, we have the Tedryn Holocron which is a Jedi holocron. So what we have in JvsS is an in-universe-character (Tionne) accessing stuff that other in-universe-characters left behind. Enough for a retcon?

Nope. There are multiple reason for that. The main reason is, of course, that this source is contradicted by two omniscient out-of-universe sources that state Kun did design the weapon. Unless they are contradicted by a source of equal nature or higher canon, that stands - no matter what some in-universe-source says.

That aside: Consider the nature of the holocron. It contains recordings made by Jedi. And there you have the very problem: When Kun constructed the blade, the former Jedi trainees and Jedi (he recruited on Ossus) were under the control of the spirits from the stolen Sith holocron. The only "normal" people left were Ulic and Aleema - who spent their time away from Yavin 4, so they wouldn't have noticed what Kun was doing - not to mention that Aleema was killed before the end of the war. Yet Kun's knowledge perished together with the Sith Lord. So please tell me how the Jedi could have obtained any details about Kun's weapon design. From Lala-Land?

Then we have Kun himself who asks Vodo if his former master likes the "modifications" he has make to his lightsaber. If he just modified his own weapon, that rules out the possibility that he constructed an entirely new one. That he has gotten the complete design from any obscure Sith holocron is ruled out too - ironically by JvsS as source itself which claims that the Jedi Exiles becoming Sith Lords have "abandoned the use of lightsabers" which, 3000 years before Kun, where still those nice constructs with cables attached to them, meaning that any Sith Lord in the starting days of the Sith Empire coming up with the design Kun was using, would have had to made a quantum leap in lightsaber design to even consider such a construction possible .

Yet even if we assume that this idea of an in-universe-source is correct. How does that affect anything said about Exar Kun? Even if he discovered the design idea in some Sith holocron, constructed the regular-length hilt DBL from some blueprints he found and used a corresponding style he also found within said holocron - all of that would have been wiped out together with the Sith Lord himself. Unless you want to tell me that the Jedi that saw Exar Kun fighting with Vodo did an in-depth-analysis of his weapon and the corresponding combat style in the matter of minutes.

Which means that neither Dooku nor Mace would have the slightest idea about Kun's style or weapon. And then one could ask the question if it's harder to confront an opponent that uses an unfamiliar style or if it's harder for one of the duo to face Kun - the guy who uses an unfamiliar style, an unfamiliar weapon, alters blade-length and intensity of his blades in combat aside from being more powerful and knowledgeable force wise than the two PT era force users.

To me the answer is pretty clear. But of course you can keep on with playing dumb and tossing out your Kindergarten level insults instead of putting any effort into an actual debating. Which might, of course, be healther for you, since we all know that trolling is your business and your attempts to construct arguments are even more pitiful than your attempts to be funny.

The Count and Mace can take this, Dooku is quite familiar with Jar Kai and all of its uses. Mace's Mastery of Vaapad will come in handy with an opponent as physically powerful as Darth Bane.
Dooku's Force and Saber mastery

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Count and Mace can take this, Dooku is quite familiar with Jar Kai and all of its uses.

Unfortunatelly, that won't get him anywhere since there is no Jar'Kai user participating in this fight, assuming that Kun uses his double-bladed lightsaber.



And then it will be quite diminished in terms of efficiency, when wielded against an opponent like Darth Bane who is covered with orbalisks.



...are pretty nice, but force wise he's no Exar Kun...

I've stayed away because I know very little about Kun, but I've gotta take a stab at this.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Unfortunatelly, that won't get him anywhere since there is no Jar'Kai user participating in this fight, assuming that Kun uses his double-bladed lightsaber.
Dooku was more than capable of dealing with a double bladed lightsaber- he trained Asajj to fight with a saberstaff. Kun won't be able to surprise him there.

Also, wookiepedia calls Jar'Kai/Niman the same thing, listing Maul as a Jar'Kai user.

Originally posted by Borbarad

And then it will be quite diminished in terms of efficiency, when wielded against an opponent like Darth Bane who is covered with orbalisks.

Actually, that is false. Vaapad would be exactly as efficient as it always is (he is fighting a powerful DS user, after all) but the dark sider's defense is just magnitudes greater than one he has fought before. Mace's shatterpoint ability would definitely show him the gap at the wrists, the opening at the face, and might even give his an opportunity to destroy parts of the armor- heck, even Jaina Solo was able to destroy Mandalorian Iron Armor with small applications of TK. Bane isn't able to stomp Windu, in any circumstance.



Originally posted by Borbarad

...are pretty nice, but force wise he's no Exar Kun...

One might say 'but force wise he's no Count Dooku of Sereno.' The Count is no slouch with the Force- devoting himself to Sith teachings after his departure from the Order, even though he was already one of the more powerful Jedi Force users of the PT. Apparently he knows Force Flight, as well as being very skilled at mental manipulation, Quey'tek meditation, and telekinesis- not to mention Force Lightning.

Dooku's good. I wouldn't be surprised if Kun was better (resisted Force sever, etc.) but he wouldn't be able to outclass Dooku, so it would come down to sabers. In a saber duel I would call in favor of the Count in a slim majority of their fights, due to his mastery of Form II and familiarity with other forms of combat.

Dooku is able to resist and deflect casually from General "No human could move remotely as fast as" Grievous, so I don't see Kun (who also lacks Skywalker's Force reserves) just blitzing and overwhelming the Count even strength-to-strength.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Dooku was more than capable of dealing with a double bladed lightsaber- he trained Asajj to fight with a saberstaff. Kun won't be able to surprise him there.


The point is, that Kun is not using a regular double-blade. His lightsaber uses a standard length hilt, it's dual phase (variable lengths of the blade) and Kun can alter the intensity of the blades (from Mandalorian iron cutting lightsaber to harmless lightbeam). So not only the weapon would be beyond everything Dooku has seen so far - the corresponding style (one handed wielding, constant change of bladelength / blade intensity) would also be something Dooku is entirely unfamiliar with.



Jar'Kai is the use of two seperate lightsabers. Maul maybe mastered the style but he was obviously using Juyo when wielding the DBL.



Okay. Let me rephrase that: Mace would encounter quite some problem to get through Bane's armor - even with his Shatterpoint ability. That is, by the way, not needed to find the weak spots (wrist etc.) of the armor at all. The point is that actually Bane could just focus on defending said weak spots while hits to any other body region wouldn't do much at all.



Well. Exar Kun, while still training under Master Vodo was noted by the latter to be "the most powerful student he ever had". And this was coming from an individual that probably trained Jedi for five centuries and seen quite some Jedi in that time.

After his journey to the Dark Side Kun, according to his own words, had mastered all Sith Magic. The narrator of the TOTJ comics states that the Sith Lord has amassed "more knowledge than he could ever use". His variety of darkside techniques include force lightning (listed as practicioner by the DSSB), another variant of lightning that burns the user from the inside out (used against Gantoris), an attack that apparently conjures some "black serpents" or "black lightning", capable of seperating the victims spirit from the body - a technique that even DE Luke Sykwalker knew no defence against as stated in the Jedi Academy Trilogy. Kun is also capable of projecting beams of Sith Magic from his hand, enough to knock Aleema Keto out for several minutes and on top of that he has his amulets which can project quite powerful beams of energy (capable of tearing massive stone walls apart). The same amulet also increases Kun's TK (which would also affect his force aided strength - as this is done via TK according to Jedi VS Sith) and boost his force defence. Actually enough to walk right through a magic attack by Aleema Keto and resists the most devastating lightside technique there was.

Kun is also known for his creations in term of Sith Alchemy which include fun-stuff like the Terentateks or the Dark Reaper itself.

That being said, I don't believe that Dooku is even remotely compareable to Kun in his prime when it comes down to force abilities or force knowledge...




Force wise? With his amulet? He clearly surpasses Dooku.

And saber wise? Despite Gideon's claim that Kun wouldn't be able to blitz Dooku, the guy is pretty damn fast. There is a scene in the DLotS comics where Kun comes out of Nadd's tomb and two Naddist are waiting for him, their blasters already aiming at the Dark Jedi, while Kun is carrying some scrolls out of the tomb. Before one of the Naddist is able to pull the trigger, Kun draws his lightsaber, activates it, speeds towards the first, cuts the first down, switches his weapon hand and cuts the second down. That all in less time than one of the two opponents already aiming at him needed to fire his weapon. That aside from the fact that he - in a less powerful state - stalemated Qel-Droma, who was in turn prodigious enough with a lightsaber to handle an enraged Jedi while not having any force powers on his own. And that's aside from the fact that Kun defeated Vodo before having completed his lightsaber training and later killed his former Master .

That aside from the fact that Kun possesses enough strength to push Sylvar on her knees using just one arm. He also puts his fingers right through the skull of the Republics Chancellor and lifts the alien up with one arm extended - apparently with ease.

So I guess that Kun is stronger and faster than Dooku, equiped with greater force abilities and using a style completely unfamiliar to the PT era Sith Lord. I really just don't see Mace or Dooku surviving a fight with Exar Kun - nor do I see one of the PT era duo taking out Bane before Kun has finished his opponent.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is, that Kun is not using a regular double-blade. His lightsaber uses a standard length hilt, it's dual phase (variable lengths of the blade) and Kun can alter the intensity of the blades (from Mandalorian iron cutting lightsaber to harmless lightbeam). So not only the weapon would be beyond everything Dooku has seen so far - the corresponding style (one handed wielding, constant change of bladelength / blade intensity) would also be something Dooku is entirely unfamiliar with.
And? It's a dual phase, so what? They were in use in Dooku's time, before Dooku's time and after Dooku's time. And just about every lightsaber can alter intensity from dealing a mild sting to cleaving flesh. Unless Dooku is going to be wearing armor that will stop a normal blade and mockingly let Kun get a free hit or Kun's high intensity will let him cut through Dooku's own saber, then it's a moot point.
Dooku's weapon is unfamiliar to Kun, however, and according to Rule of Two and PoD? The curved hilt saber makes a difference



Zannah notes he puts no effort into defense because he doesn't need to. And he pays no mind to guarding his wrists, which Shatterpoint would let Mace know about. And Bane can't just bull Mace out of things.



And Dooku has some pretty nice accolades from Yoda. Who'd been training Jedi for nearly twice the time Vodo had.

Let's look at this a little more honestly. Kun sneers at Aleema, saying "I have learned EVERYTHING!" Seems more a boast. And amassed more knowledge than he could ever use? Yes. ON OSSUS WHEN HE PLUNDERED IT. What's funny about this is that he died almost immediately after and never had a chance to use it.

Again, looking at this a bit more honestly: Luke couldn't defend when Kyp had already attacked him and Luke, holding back, caught off guard, in the midst of a Dark Side nexus, and with Kun blasting him from behind? Couldn't defend.

Pardon me if I'm vastly unimpressed by his resisting anything from the two most worthless people in all of Tales of the Jedi.

While the Terentatek origin is pretty up in the air, when is it said Kun created the Reaper? Nothing indicates Kun had a personal hand in its creation

Yes. Dooku with far more sources to draw on-including possibly the Telos Holocron, far more time to study it, known as one of the most powerful and gifted Jedi ever, who has demonstrated more power than any of the people Kun fought isn't even remotely comparable.
The one thing Dooku might not be 'remotely comparable' to Kun is his hair style. Besides that? he can more than give Kun a good fight




Oh, the amulet he never uses in a fight? The amulet that has never been tried or tested against someone capable of disabling it? That amulet?


Oh, look, Nai's making shit up to make Kun look better. Kun doesn't 'switch' his hand.' At most there's an artist error Because the same hand he's using initially is the one to slie the other guy in half-as I've already pointed out. Mind telling me what the freaking point of Kun transferring cumbersome scrolls to his other hand while cutting people down.
Oh, and he can kill two Naddist thugs before they can react, BIG FREAKING DEAL. Johun Othone of all people cuts down two assassins, described as moving 'faster than the eye can see' while doing it, so that puts Kun's feat here on par with the worst Jedi ever.


'Handle?' You mean 'block a strike here and there while fleeing for his life.' He didn't beat Sylvar. He didn't come close to engaging her for an extended period of time

Yeah, because Vodo is so amazing when he loses to an enraged Padawan.
Get real. Vodo was a joke. A worthless joke of a Jedi Master who Dooku would walk through blindfolded

Dooku possesses enough strength to send Anakin Skywalker flying back with a kick and casually throw Quinlan Vos to the ground. Kun, in an insane rage grabs Sylvar's head and flings her to the ground. How is this somehow a measure of amazing strength?

Yeah, the boneless cephalapod?


Yeah, you 'really just don't see it' because you ignore any evidence to the contrary, puff up anything Kun has to absurd levels while downplaying any Mace or Dooku possess. Keepgoing on and on how SPESHUL AND AWSUM Kun's style is while totally ignoring that not only is there nothing said to be unique whatsoever- both have seen DBLs anddual phase sabers were around in their time- but their styles are utterly unfamiliar to Kun who has never encountered a curved hilt saber or, it goes without saying, Vaapad.
In a saber fight, Kunny boy gets his ponytailed ass kicked and he's too arrogant and stupid to avoid one. Not only that, but he's shown absolutely nada to make anyone believe he's on the levels of the other three with the Force besides maybe stalemating Ulic. And even that's not nearly enough.

So no. Kun and Bane ignite sabers, Mace or Dooku kill him and then team up on Bane providing Mace hasn't killed him by that point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And? It's a dual phase, so what? They were in use in Dooku's time, before Dooku's time and after Dooku's time. And just about every lightsaber can alter intensity from dealing a mild sting to cleaving flesh. Unless Dooku is going to be wearing armor that will stop a normal blade and mockingly let Kun get a free hit or Kun's high intensity will let him cut through Dooku's own saber, then it's a moot point.

Your interpretations of facts are amazing. Cars are commonly used in our time, which must mean every human being is capable of driving. Oh wait. That's not the case.

How does it matter that dual-phase blades were used in Dooku's time. Hell. Who did use a dual-phase lightsaber in that time exactly? Name some beings. Oh stop it, Lightsnake. It's specifically mentioned that those kinds of sabers where "rare" and completely "out of style" in the PT era. So why would Dooku be familiar with them?

And the intensity switching allows Kun to make opponents sabers pass through his own blade, which is not only outclassing any regular lightsaber in terms of "lowest possible intensity", but also a technique never employed in combat before or after Kun. But Dooku would also be familiar with that correct. And in turn...



Ah, yes. In turn, a slightly modified hilt-design, which allows more precise movements is teh uber advantage.




Yeah. Zannah notes that a completely enraged Bane put no effort into his defense. Going berserk doesn't appear his regular behavior in lightsaber fights. And if he really didn't need to put any effort into his defense, he simply can't be hit. Yet he's obviously very well able to do it, if needed, going by the fact that he survived the onslaught Kas'im unleashed at him before receiving his orbalisks.



ROFL. How freaking deluded must somebody be to compare those statements? May I remind you that, when Yoda gave those statements about Dooku, the latter had already spent 8 decades as a force user and had already become a Sith Lord. Vodo gives the comment about Kun after the lecturing him on how he did not even finish his lightsaber training yet only minutes earlier.



Really, Lightsnake. You, the probably most biased person as far as Ancient Sith characters are concerned, dare to claim that your analysis is "honest"? Hilarious. Apparently you somehow have forgotten that Kun walked straight through Aleema's attack without even being affected. So he can boast as much as he wants. That mere fact shows that he's leagues above her in terms of Sith knowledge. Which is not even mentioning his other exploits in that field (e.g. freezing or mind-controlling the entire Senate) and Sith Alchemy.



Can you please leave your biased interpretations out of it? Thanks. The book specifically state that "every single defense Yoda has taught him" fails againt Kun's attack. Of course he might have resisted it due to sheer power if Kyp hasn't attacked him at the same time - yet he still didn't know any defense against it.



Pardon me if I'm vastly unimpressed by the personal view of "Mr.Bias" about pre-PT era characters. I know that you have moved your head so deep into Sidious anus, that you can't see anything left and right, but please don't bother the rest of us with your opinion - because nobody gives a flying ducky about it.



Sure thing, pal. Things just materialized out of thin air in Kun's time. Apparently the New Essential Chronology disagrees with you because it says that the Dark Reaper was constructed by the Sith during the Great Sith War. So who the hell, if not Kun himself, should have done that? Ulic Qel-Droma? Or one of Kun's Sith-spirit-controlled Dark Jedi?

And yes. The Terentateks also appeared out of thin air, because the great Lightsnake says so. It's just coincidence that the Jedi developed the idea to hunt them down with a galaxy-wide series of events right after the death of Exar Kun.



Oh. Dooku had more sources? Name some. Specify their content in comparision to the stuff Kun had. Really. Dooku had his Jedi training and limited access to one Sith Holocron, aside of that the had access to whatever Sidious might have given him. Kun also had his Jedi Training, adding the complete knowledge of Sadow, who had centuries to study the Dark Side and whatever he took from Ossus. Even if we ignore the latter, Kun still had access to the knowledge of the most accomplished Sith Magician / Alchemist we've seen in the saga so far. So I wonder how Dooku's knowledge is compareable to that.



Erm. How do you descripe Kun's confrontation with Sadow's Sith creature on Yavin 4? I'd call that a fight, but according to you it must be something different because Kun never used the amulet in a fight, correct? Same thing with Kun annihilating Nadds spirit. No fight? And somebody capable of disabling it? Really, Lightsnake. Show me the being in the SW universe able to block force energies that annihilated half a dozen of human size Massassi on the spot with apparent ease and blast through giant creatures as well as walls.

The list of people capable to deal with such energy levels is rather short, and I don't see Dooku or Mace being on said list.



I must have missed the fact that you happen to be the LFL employee responsible for canon displayed in comics now, Lightsnake. I've just sided what can be seen in the comics. Does it make sense to you that Mace switches his weapon hand when fighting Sidious? No? He does. Why? Do you want to write that off as an "artist error" too? Then we can stop all discussions here because everything not fitting into somebodies opinion will be an cartoonist / writer / director mistake from now on.



Excuse me, Lightsnake. They are both pointing their blasters at Kun who is unarmed in that situation. One of them on almost point blank range. The only thing compareable in the saga happens in the opening sequence of RotS, when Obi-Wan and Anakin are forced backwards by the droidekas into the elevator filled with battle droids. Yet they, unlike Kun, still had their weapons in hand and all opponents in direct melee range. Kun had to draw his weapon and ignite it before he was capable of doing anything.

And really. Get over your damn bias against pre-PT-era characters. Going by your logic, every Jedi or Sith in the saga is on one level with Johun, because they all have been descriped with similar words during combat.

I must have missed the freaking time stamps on the comic pages because, unlike you, I don't know how long the duel lasted. Yet I also haven't seen some non-force-user who managed to survive against an enraged Jedi in melee combat for even a brief time period. Normally people die within seconds when confronting force users - especially enraged ones.



Have I already mentioned your pain-in-the-ass bias? Yes? No? Maybe so? At least attempt to come up with arguments instead dropping you "Mimimimimimi. All pre-PT characters suck. Mimimimi" whines where ever possible.



He pushes her down, Lightsnake. That is no Judo move. He simply forces her to kneel down before him by pressing her head down. Try that yourself with somebody of your own size.



LOL. Could you please reactivate the stuff that should be located somewhere between your ears? The mere fact that the alien is standing and walking does mean that the dear Chancellor either has bones or an exosceleton, because otherwise, he would look like Ommin right before his death. As you suggest that he doesn't have bones, this must mean he has an exosceleton, which would be an argument for my side. Why? Because, in relation, most exosceletons appearing in nature are more durable and heavier than human bones. Which would make it even harder for Kun to put his fingers right through the Chancellors skull and lift him up with one arm.



Oh my god. Stop it, Lightsnake. I will laugh myself to death if I read any more accusations from you, that I hand out biased arguments. There is nothing special about Kun's style? How many people are constantly altering length and intensity of their blades in combat while wielding a short-hilt design DBL around with one hand? Come on. Since you claim that there is nothing unique about Kun's style, you must have a list containing some people who do that. Post it or shut up.

And sorry, Lightsnake. Using your own logic: Makashi as well as Juyo where also around in Kun's time and because of that, he will have no problems recognizing the styles, despite probably never seen them.



Can somebody please place another mark on the Lightsnake bias statements board? Are we talking about the same Kun here that tells Ulic not to attack Coruscant because pursuing a greater plan? Are we talking about the same Kun that talks 20 people into joining his cause, tricking them and the same Kun that sent Aleema Keto on a suicide-mission as punishment for her betrayal of Ulic - which she didn't figure out until it was too late? Are we talking about the same Kun that devised a plan that exterminated some of the orders most powerful Jedi through assassination? The same Kun that kept Ulic who "spread death on a genocidal level" across the universe as his personal *****? Sure thing pal. The guy is certainly stupid and arrogant, yes.

Because he entered a saber fight how often? Oh right. With Ulic, maybe because his opponent was wielding another Sith Amulet which are known for boosting people's force defence. And against Vodo...because he was toying with the Jedi master. That aside? He force rapes anybody else. So unless Mace or Dooku are wearing Sith amulets nowadays or happen to have a personal relationship to Kun, I don't see any why he wouldn't simply rip them apart with the force. An idea that violates the basic idea behind Versus fights totally. Using your logic, Luke will lose every VS fight because of either not wanting to hurt lightsiders or wanting to redeem Dark Siders.



Yay. With the exception of his work in Sith alchemy, his mind control / freeze action in the Senate and him pwning a force ghosts, a giant Sith beast and draining an entire race of individuals. Yup. In fact neither Mace nor Dooku have demonstrated anything close to Exar Kun in terms of force ability. Leaves saber combat (if Kun decides to not annihilate his opponent on the spot using his amulet or Sith magic).

Your interpretation:



Mind you. You're still assuming that it's somehow easier to cope with an unfamiliar weapon wielded in a completely unfamiliar style (Kun) and a lightsaber resistant armor (Bane) than with a slighty altered blade design (Dooku) and a style that is derived from known forms plus the ability to spot weaknesses in an opponents defence (Mace).

As I view it, the first one to die here is Dooku, regardless of whom he encounters. Next is Mace getting double-teamed. And this is already following your interpretation that none of the participants would even attempt a force attack.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Your interpretations of facts are amazing. Cars are commonly used in our time, which must mean every human being is capable of driving. Oh wait. That's not the case.
No, just that a legendary saber instructor probably has an idea of the thing in a time when they were in use?

Yeah, and guess what? So was Makashi. Dooku familiarized himself with that very well. And yes, it matters that dual phase sabers were in use in Dooku's time because he, a master of the lightsaber, familiar in all the forms and styles as well as weapons would probably have an idea on those things at a point when they were in use since he has a record of learning about things when it's not fashionable.

Let them 'pass through his own blade?' So his brilliant plan ends in his own decapitation?
So he can alter the intensity. Big ****ing deal, how'll this help in combat unless his opponents are wearing saber proof armor?


POD: It would give the wielder more power on his overhand strikes, and it would change the angle of the attacks by the merest fraction of a degree. Just enough to confuse and disorient an unsuspecting opponent.
Ro2: The warning caused Farfalla to notice the hook-handled light-saber of his enemy, and the unusual grip it required. This would alter the nature of his attacks, causing them to come in from odd and unfamiliar angles. In the regimented and hyperprecise world of Jedi-Sith lightsaber duels, it transformed his style into something unique and unexpected.
Owning you? It never gets old.





Zannah notes in her fight with Sarro Bane forgoes all sense of personal safety in a duel.

He survived that SOLELY because he was able to navigate out of the tunnel and it took everything he had to fight for his life to try to escape.
And yes, he can be him. His face is a very vulnerable spot.



So you admit there was no point besides stroking Kun here? Your point here was WHAT exactly? Kun was a gifted Padawan?



Oh, noes, he can survive an attack from a weak Sith sorceress with little training.
Please. Asajj Ventress is more impressive than Aleema. I'm supposed to be impressed, how?

So what? Nothing of this is cream of the crop in any of its categories and saying Kun's boast equates to sheer fact is absurd. He outclasses Aleema in Sith knowledge when her entire knowledge is based on...scraps from Nadd.



Funny coming from you. Actually, it's ****ing hilarious.

When he's already hit? From behind? When distracted?
When did Yoda teach him "If an ancient spirit shows up and hits you from the back, THIS is what you do!" anyways?

And Kol Skywalker couldn't defend from the weaker Darth Nihl when Nihl hit him with Force Lightning from behind.
Your point here is what, exactly? Kun's attacks can't be stopped when they've already hit someone? That Kun 's totally awesome when relying on sneak attacks?



Aww, look. IT's an attempt to poison the well from someone who can't stop riding Exar.
No, Nai, as you're still posting, it seems you do give a damn. The fact that you're a pompous little **** only makes ripping you apart more satisfying



Find me a source saying Exar invented it. Or shut up

OH, right, if it says 'The Sith,' it must mean KUN! It can't POSSIBLY be one of the numerous members of the Brotherhood, the spirits of the old Sith possessing the younger knights or any other member of the brotherhood.
It was created during the WAR. As in, not BEFORE the war, but DURING IT. When would Kun having the ****ing time to skip off to planets to create giant superweapons?
No, it says the Sith created it. That doesn't mean Kun did anything but commission it.

Since you're a biased *******, I'll look beyond the sarcasm and vitriol and point out other sources say they evolved on Korriban

The Telos Holocron.
Huh. There's anything Kun might have had utterly trumped. Oh, and the Sith Holocrons he had accessed. And Andeddu's holocron, of course. Yeah, Dooku's Sith knowledge was likely not bad.

Yeah. To Padawan level

How many times are you going to bleat out about 'whatever he took from Ossus' before you get it through your thick skull he didn't have time to study any of it? He grabbed it, fled to Yavin and died immediately almost immediately after?
Yeah, Sadow's knowledge, big deal. Guess who one of the gatekeepers of the Telos Holocron is? Sadow, yes. And judging by Palpatine's gatekeeper's comments, all of Sadow's knowledge, same as Nadd and Kun knew are right in the holocron

I'll go with the guy who had decades to study what he did before the guy who had six months.



How about fight against someone who could actually fight back

Considering Kun catches Nadd totally off guard with a single punch while Nadd is too busy gloating about his imminent return? No, not any more a fight than Palpatine and Plagueis.

I'll show you a few who've thrown up powerful force shields and absorbed or deflected lots of energy. And by disable I mean affect the amulet.


Because they're so totally low tier on the force scale.



I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this was 'Nai blows Kun again' time. And when does Mace 'switch his weapon hand,' now? For the better part of the duel-and for most of Mace's fights- he grips the saber with BOTH hands.

Hey, here's a thought: get over yourself.
We see Kun is wearing his saber on one side, holding the scrolls in one hand. Suddenly in the next image, he's slashing with the hand that should be holding the scrolls, as if he was just draining the saber, final image is him halving the other with things back in their original perspective.


Against two non force sensitive thugs. Wow! This puts him on the level of Johun 'Moves Faster Than the Eye can see to dispatch two elite assassins before they react' Othone and Kopecz. You know Kopecz. The guy who was walking down the corridor of a Republic flagship to be accosted by Republic soldiers, described as 'elites,' the best bodyguards the Republic has to offer, all ready for combat with the Sith Lord.
He has his saber out, ignited and all of them are dead. One, noted as exceptional manages to fire her saber twice.

Quit your whining and stop using the double standard to puff up Kun if you dislike it. Hint: Killing two thugs isn't impressive.

Oh, and no, I'll continue to argue against your ponytailed deity as much as I see fit.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I must have missed the freaking time stamps on the comic pages because, unlike you, I don't know how long the duel lasted. Yet I also haven't seen some non-force-user who managed to survive against an enraged Jedi in melee combat for even a brief time period. Normally people die within seconds when confronting force users - especially enraged ones.
Oh, yeah, it's not like we see Ulic running AS HE'S TALKING. Is the comic cutting out what he's saying, too? No, I think we can judge it adequately from that
And yeah, no non force sensitive has ever achieved that...hello, Boba Fett, Jango Fett, Kel'Laden...I could go on.




Oh, look, no argument from you. How typically Nai. *****, disguise it as an insult and later on, get huffy.



An enraged well trained young man lunges and shoves a slim cat woman to the ground.
Amazing feet of strength. No really. I'm sorry, this is absurd. What's next...Jacen's amazing displays of strength in his fights with Mara Jade?



Here's a thought, Nai. Ever held an octopus or any other Cephalopod? Because they don't tend to be the most durable or strong creatures from what I've seen up close.




Oh, stop being such a pathetic little hack and covering it up with scummy little taunts like that, you pompous ltitle ego case.
Not only is Kun never seen 'altering intensity or length' in any of his fights-how altering intensity will help, I have no idea, nor is there any evidence the hilt makes any difference-onus on you, kiddo. Challenged that before and yet you show no proof. And one handed? PROVE UP.
Go on! Show me ONE SINGLE OCCASION Kun is shown to swing it one handed WITHOUT DOUBT. He swings it THREE times. SO he twirls it with one hand, he does the same with Ood and is CLEARLY seen striking with both hands.
Guess who the burden is on? It ain't me.

Oh, Kun knows Vaapad now? In your deluded little mind is he awesome enough to travel through time and learn about it? Or maybe he invented it, too?
And yeah, he probably saw Makashi.
Now account for the curved hilt



Same guy who decided twenty knights were a perfect force, right? Same guy who's shown nothing but contempt and arrogance for anyone in his way and is described in his descriptions as 'arrogant,' right?
How does most of what you even mentioned have anything to do with anything but good planning anyways? Palpatine's planning skills far exceeded Kun's, that somehow means he wasn't arrogant to the extreme?
and when was Ulic Kun's personal ***** now? When was this, exactly? At what possible point does Ulic demonstrate abject submission to Kun, going "I MUST obey my master!"
No, Ulic insults Kun to his face and defies direct orders. Not exactly '***** material.'

Basis for this? Logic? Reason? Oh, right. None. Kun never uses it. PRove he will. Or shut up.

Yeah, we NEVER take some basic personalities into account here. Ever. Especially not when you've whined about Palpatine not walking into the arena with a massive arsenal of Sith artifacts.
And yeah, let's hear these Dark Siders Luke has decided to try to redeem lately. Was it Lomi Plo? Welk? Caedus maybe? Lumiya? The last person Luke tried to redeem was Brakiss.
The others? He attempted, flat out, to kill them in their fights and in every case but one, he succeeded at the end.



Guess what all of that means to a fight? Nothing.
Oh, and uh, the third? Nothing related to his power

No, the amulet killed the Sith beast. And the Sith power objects in the ritual drained the entire race who willingly gave up their lives.



Mace and Dooku are only the top tier of the Jedi as is. Funny how all of that you mention from Kun is either majorly aggrandized or has nothing to do with his direct, personal force powers

Prove up. OR shut up. Kun's weapon is not unique-it is a DBL. His style is not shown to be unique-one quote, please

Yeah, Vaapad, the unique form? Posted the evidence on the curved hilt. Yet Mace's Vaapad makes no difference, but Kun's hilt being SHORTER makes ALL the difference.

Actually, Mace will probably have killed his opponent by then.

And my interpretation is based on the fact that Bane just bulls into a fight without using the Force at first and Kun never even bothers and just ignites the saber.

So, in the end? Try again, Nai.

Crap. I posted in the wrong thread!