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1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All-out

Tell who wins each one and why.

What Galen?
Sith = Obi ftw
Jedi = probably tie

Do you know that TFU is exaggerated so the player can experience thrilling effects of the force? If Galen can bring down a Star Destroyer, then I'm quite sure Vader and Sidious together can bring down galaxies.

Nope, not how it works.

So you think bringing down SD is normal? Galen must be one hell of a force user.

Gameplay=/=canon. Cool, eh?

So how strong is Galen?

Btw, your avatar is scary. It's not nice to stare, you know.

IMO I'd put him at ANH Vader, by game's end that is. I never read the novel, so I don't know how his fight with Vader goes.

Staring is my way of confrontation. Opponent's hate it when all you do is look, listen, and laugh at what they say or do.

Originally posted by Ultimate Vader
So you think bringing down SD is normal? Galen must be one hell of a force user.

No, but Galen's not normal, he's one of the strongest raw force users.

So that being said, what is your point?

Marek stomps the shit out of Obi-Wan in the force, loses the sabers, and takes the all-out with some difficulty.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Marek stomps the shit out of Obi-Wan in the force, loses the sabers, and takes the all-out with some difficulty.

QFT

1. Obi Wan
2. Marek
3. Obi Wan

1 Obi wan
2. Marek
3. Marek

I'm going to go out on a limb and deduce that the idea that Marek would lose to Obi-Wan seems to stem from the idea that Kenobi beat Anakin Skywalker. Keep in mind, however, that several key advantages that Kenobi had over his wayward pupil are not present here. First, Marek is not necessarily possessed of the same psychopathy and battle rage that sabotaged Skywalker. Second, Marek is a far greater master of the Force than Skywalker and has demonstrated the ability and aptitude to use it in single combat. Third, Kenobi hasn't been paired with Marek for over a decade and the beneficiary of intimate knowledge of Marek's dueling form, style, and habits. Fourth, Marek is familiar with Soresu and has dueled with 'Kenobi' before via PROXY, who copied the general's mannerisms and tactics in the duels.

thats true. kenobi is a master with sabers, and against Skywalker, that was enough, because he singlemindedly attacked him with nothing but sabers.

With marek, he would figure out he couldn't beat him with sabers, and then go after him with the force, and then Kenobi might be in trouble.

Except that the idea that Marek couldn't defeat Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel hasn't been elucidated upon.

i think stems from the idea that right now kenobi has sort of a reputation that hardly anybody could beat him with sabers.

Kenobi's clearly an upper tier lightsaber duelist. But that's not enough in this case to say he'd defeat Marek.

'Hardly anybody'? I think Kenobi is a top tier saber duelist, but I could name you ten fighters right now that could very well defeat Kenobi.

i would put marek somewhere above ANH vader, but not ridiculously above in sabers. IMO, that really doesn't do him any favors in any ranking system. Vader was limited by the suit when it came to lightsaber dueling. Is there someone better with sabers that marek defeats than ANH vader? (whom he actually largely trashes with the force)

During his duel with Shaak Ti(hardly his peak, i know) he was defeated with a saber before launching a massive assault on her with the force. In fact, he ends up defeating every one of his Jedi opponents with the force instead of lightsaber. (Kota, little weird guy who's name i can't remember on the droid planet, Ti, and eventually Vader)

Where is the evidence that would put Marek as a top-tier saber duelist?

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
'Hardly anybody'? I think Kenobi is a top tier saber duelist, but I could name you ten fighters right now that could very well defeat Kenobi.

with sabers only? I can think of sidious, yoda, luke, dooku, bane, maybe windu you got others?

In Labyrinth of Evil, Kenobi regards Shaak Ti as his superior. So what you've basically said is that Marek, while not being at his peak, was nearly killed by someone whom Kenobi views as his superior.

Well, the thing is, Marek uses the environment to his advantage. It's not like he fights his opponents on the desert, you know. Shaak Tii and the crazy droid master both, at least in the game, try to get away from Marek. They try to create some space between them, which, unfortunately for them, works more on Marek's advantage.

Originally posted by Gideon
In Labyrinth of Evil, Kenobi regards Shaak Ti as his superior. Where?

you notice Obi-wan kenobi pretty much regarded EVERYONE as his superior. He regarded Fisto as the same. IMO, i would say Kenobi's opinion, was just plain incorrect. They didn't send Ti or Fisto after Grievous.

You notice Windu gives a talk to Kenobi AFTER the events of LOE, in which he explains to kenobi that kenobi is actually more deadly with sabers than Kenobi realizes. (even insinuates that Kenobi is more powerful than Mace himself...., but mace is a ridiculously humble guy when it come to ranking himself if you notice)

I would point out that a DEFEAT proves nothing. thats proving a negative. Saying Marek lost to someone who WAS kenobi's superior (if she was) still does NOTHING to establish Marek as a top-tier duelist, which we already have done with Kenobi.

Where is the evidence of his top tierdom?

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Well, the thing is, Marek uses the environment to his advantage. It's not like he fights his opponents on the desert, you know. Shaak Tii and the crazy droid master both, at least in the game, try to get away from Marek. They try to create some space between them, which, unfortunately for them, works more on Marek's advantage.

that doesn't give him an advantage with sabers though. THey try to create distance, he fries them with the force. that doesn't prove his lightsaber abilities.

Originally posted by truejedi
with sabers only? I can think of sidious, yoda, luke, dooku, bane, maybe windu you got others?


Katarn, Caedus, Exar Kun, Kyp Durron possibly, and there probably are others, I just can't think of them right now.

Also, Windu is not a 'maybe', it is a 'surely', and Anakin could very well defeat Kenobi when on his right mind.

To Truejedi: Actually, the fact that they try to create distance between them and Marek implies he has the upper hand in the duel, and the reason they're trying to avoid close combat is because they believe they would lose.

Originally posted by Faunus
Where?

Looking for it now.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Katarn, Caedus, Exar Kun, Kyp Durron possibly, and there probably are others, I just can't think of them right now.

Also, Windu is not a 'maybe', it is a 'surely', and Anakin could very well defeat Kenobi when on his right mind.

care to substantiate ANY of that?

Pure sabers contest only here. Force can't be used. I agree that almost each of those force users could defeat Kenobi in a duel.. (freaking Katarn though? are you kidding me?)

But in a lightsaber duel. You gotta prove some of that before anyone is going to take it as fact. The ultimate master of soresu. Defeated Grievous and his 20 strokes per second. Prove ANY of those names you just listed can deliver 20 strokes per second.

What the hell are you talking about?

Can Dooku, Bane, or Luke deliver 20 strikes per second? No, they can't. Yet they can easily defeat Kenobi... Your point?

I'm afraid I can't prove the people I named above can defeat Kenobi (with quotes, at least) because I don't have the comics or the books here with me.

But I don't understand what you're trying to do here. If you agree that most of the fighters I mentioned would defeat Kenobi saberwise, then what's the point in providing evidence for you?

sorry, didn't make myself clear. I agree they would defeat Kenobi in an all-out. But without force attacks, i consider Obi-wan their superior, and i highly doubt that any evidence actually exists to prove otherwise.

Originally posted by truejedi
care to substantiate ANY of that?Katarn: Possesses arguably the second- or third-greatest natural talent with a lightsaber in the mythos based on feats and context, behind perhaps only Luke Skywalker and Ulic Qel-Droma. In a matter of months, when he was basically a neophyte, he fought and killed more Dark Jedi than Kenobi had even come into contact with for the duration of his life.

Caedus: Outclassed the above, nearly killed Luke Skywalker. 'Nuff said.

This is stupid. Delivering over twenty strikes per second is a requirement to defeat Kenobi?

Originally posted by Faunus
Katarn: Possesses arguably the second- or third-greatest natural talent with a lightsaber in the mythos based on feats and context, behind perhaps only Luke Skywalker and Ulic Qel-Droma. In a matter of months, when he was basically a neophyte, he fought and killed more Dark Jedi than Kenobi had even come into contact with for the duration of his life.

Caedus: Outclassed the above, nearly killed Luke Skywalker. 'Nuff said.


okay... Katarn, first of all, never defeated anyone who's power can be proven. Sadly, he falls directly into the KOTOR category of unprovable difficulty villians.
defeating Jerec for instance, proves nothing, because not one other jedi of substance fought jerec. Your perhaps Luke Skywalker and Ulic Qel-Drama statement has one word in it that is forced to remove it from consideration. PERHAPS. Its pure speculation.

Second: Caedus never almost killed Luke Skywalker, unless you happen to know of a book form LOTF that i haven't read. Please, elaborate so i can take that one apart. Because it. never. happened.

oh, and lastly, Caedus never defeated Katarn with a saber anyway. I think you are getting all-outs and saber duels a bit mixed up here. I picked Marek over kenobi in an all-out.

Originally posted by Gideon
In Labyrinth of Evil, Kenobi regards Shaak Ti as his superior. So what you've basically said is that Marek, while not being at his peak, was nearly killed by someone whom Kenobi views as his superior.

Quote and context please. I call bullshit if it's in reference to purely combat abilities.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Quote and context please. I call bullshit if it's in reference to purely combat abilities.

I was mistaken. He does not explicitly say that her powers are above his own. The statement in question is thus:



-- Revenge of the Sith novelization, pg 22.

Humility is not a defense, truejedi. Kenobi did not regard everyone as his superior and while he was characteristically humble, the movies and novels make it quite clear that Obi-Wan was very aware of his proficiency in combat, as he boasts to General Grievous twice. As Yoda suggested in Attack of the Clones, there is an inherent arrogance amongst the Jedi -- even "the older, more experienced" ones. Which, incidentally, he says while looking dramatically at Kenobi himself.



This was said during the Cestus Deception, a couple of months after the Battle of Geonosis. Is this opinion ever contradicted? Keep in mind that the Complete Visual Dictionary makes it clear that Fisto is a "celebrated swordsmen."



They didn't send Skywalker, Yoda, or Windu after him either. Does that mean that Obi-Wan is superior to those three or that they are somehow unqualified to kill the general?



Insinuations aren't conclusive evidence and this does nothing to further your point. We have agreed to the premise that Kenobi is a top tier duelist.



How is that proving a negative?

The point is that Marek, far from his prime, was nearly killed by a seasoned Council master whom Obi-Wan held in high esteem (and was regarded as one of the finest duelists in the Order, even according to The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide). There is no conclusive evidence that Kenobi could defeat someone of Marek's caliber, especially when he has no great advantage over him as he did with Anakin.



General Grievous overloaded Obi-Wan's defenses at twenty strikes per second with brute strength and speed. Luke Skywalker has never been stated to move or swing at such speeds, so is Obi-Wan better than him?

Originally posted by truejedi

Second: Caedus never almost killed Luke Skywalker, unless you happen to know of a book form LOTF that i haven't read. Please, elaborate so i can take that one apart. Because it. never. happened.


I don't believe that Caedus ever had Luke in a near death position (such as Vader was on the Death Star) but I believe he broke at the very least one Luke's ribs, possibly his nose and he need about half dozen bandages. Though Luke was clearly the superior and could have killed Caedus twice I believe.



Your right in the fact that Caedus(who had not fully recovered from his duel with Luke) didn't stab Katarn in the chest with strictly his lightsaber. The novel states that the jedi didn't pay too much attention to the 4 oncoming GAG speeders while Caedus used part of his battle awareness to plot their trajectories so he coulduse the force to pull one which hit Katarn, who essentially flow into Caedus who stabbed him. So

However there was a point before where Caedus did out duel Katarn and was about to amputate Katarn's leg but another jedi got her saber in the way of Caedus's.

At the end of the duel, Jacen was strangling Luke with garrotte wire and was about to kill him. Luke managed to get away, and just as Jacen was about to follow, Ben intervened and stabbed him in the back. So, yes, Jacen did nearly kill Luke Skywalker.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
What the hell are you talking about?

Can Dooku, Bane, or Luke deliver 20 strikes per second? No, they can't. Yet they can easily defeat Kenobi... Your point?

I'm afraid I can't prove the people I named above can defeat Kenobi (with quotes, at least) because I don't have the comics or the books here with me.

But I don't understand what you're trying to do here. If you agree that most of the fighters I mentioned would defeat Kenobi saberwise, then what's the point in providing evidence for you?
Actually, Luke can probably deliver 20 strikes per second by the time of NJO. Bane, his raw power would defeat Kenobi itself. And last, Dooku, in a lightsaber duel I consider obi wan his superior.

you have all made excellent points with the 20 strokes per statement. I withdraw that one. However, i still fail to see where there is evidece that places marek as a top-tier duelist. Gideon, you yourself said that Kenobi is one. Where does Marek show himself worthy of being considered a top ranked saber duelist. He LOST to Shaak Ti with sabers. That is not a feat. Han Solo would lose to Shaak Ti with sabers. That certainly doesn't mean HE is able to defeat kenobi.

Let me get the quote of that fight. Ti handled Marek pretty handily with just sabers i believe:




It looks like in every exchange of pure sabers that Ti held the advantage. Marek needs to attack her or the Sarlaac constantly with the force in order to survive. Even at the end, he doesn't survive her attack on his own, he blocks it with the force.

In fact, this entire fight is a terrible example of a sabers-only duel. Marek is attack with the force practically from the beginning. I see absolutely no evidence that he would have any opportunity to defeat Shaak Ti without using the force prodiguously.

Originally posted by Gideon
At the end of the duel, Jacen was strangling Luke with garrotte wire and was about to kill him. Luke managed to get away, and just as Jacen was about to follow, Ben intervened and stabbed him in the back. So, yes, Jacen did nearly kill Luke Skywalker.

It is there, Luke was trying to "buy some maneuvering room." So I was wrong, Luke had Jacen beaten(trapped in vines I believe) once but didn't kill him because of Ben then once Jacen got out he sent a light fixture falling on Luke. Jacen used the time to try and run but Luke stopped him then the two began dueling again and Jacen would catch Luke with the garrote .

Originally posted by Gideon
At the end of the duel, Jacen was strangling Luke with garrotte wire and was about to kill him. Luke managed to get away, and just as Jacen was about to follow, Ben intervened and stabbed him in the back. So, yes, Jacen did nearly kill Luke Skywalker.

I guess you didn't read the rest of the book? In Jacen's OWN reflection on that assault he says that Luke had escaped the garrote on his own, and had inflicted more damage than he had recieved. I'm not in the mood to type out another massive passage. I'll give you a page number.

Inferno, Pg. 266, paragraphs 3 and 4. heck its short:




You might ask Caedus if he almost killed luke. Seems he knew better than to believe that.

Couldn't you have posted that before I posted? Now later I will have to reread that portion of the book.

doing my darndest. lol i can only type so fast... u can probably still edit.

We're going to have a problem of the grandest proportions, truejedi. Your attitude has been aggressive and sarcastic throughout this entire debate, which is fine. The problem is that you direct some rather unfounded arrogance at me. Let me make this explicitly clear: your entire argument is being thrashed and crushed in almost every possible angle to the point that you chose to desperately try to nullify the novelization's depiction of the Kota-vs-Malak duel and then didn't even bother addressing the brunt of my argument and instead decided to quote a passage where Shaak Ti nearly killed Marek (a point we had all addressed earlier). What is the point? There is no point; Ti's defeat of a Marek who had not reached his prime is not conclusive or suggestive that Kenobi would manage to do the same to an even stronger Marek. Do you copy, soldier?

Now if you're going to go down the "LOLZ SARCASM" route, do us all a favor and actually make a point worth my time. If not, keep it to yourself and focus your wit on your argument, currently on life support and failing fast.



IRRELEVANT, SIR.



I mentioned that Skywalker escaped the garrote, so you wasted valuable time for absolutely nothing. It was Faunus's statement that Jacen Solo nearly killed Luke Skywalker. That Skywalker managed to eventually escape does not change that.



Except Jacen's reflection does nothing to change, mitigate, or contradict the actual events. He does not state that he was owned, just that he suffered more damage and that Luke had defeated him, even though I'd like to point out that:

a.) Luke was in battle rage.
b.) Luke attacked without warning.
c.) Luke had an outside party to help.

I'm not exactly impressed. But his victory wasn't in question, and you're being an idiot for thinking that it was.

Originally posted by Gideon
I was mistaken. He does not explicitly say that her powers are above his own. The statement in question is thus:



-- Revenge of the Sith novelization, pg 22.


... that says nothing about her actual combat prowess compared to his... she's resourceful, as we know from her second fight with GG, but she is not on Obi-Wan's level in a straight-up fight.

If you want to use abc like Obi-Wan > Tii > Galen, you should remember that Shak Ti > GG > Obi-Wan.

Blatantly false.

Kenobi kept up until at 20 strikes/second (that's five strikes per lightsaber in one second), at which point he went on the offensive. There was no part of the fight that Obi-Wan did not dominate according to the novel, and the Movie has him winning until he gets thrown over the edge.

Kenobi > GG. Fact. It is in canon. Argue against GL if you want, but you'll lose. (A fight with both characters at their peaks would also show General Kenobi's victory, and I'm willing to substantiate that.)

Originally posted by Gideon
We're going to have a problem of the grandest proportions, truejedi. Your attitude has been aggressive and sarcastic throughout this entire debate, which is fine. The problem is that you direct some rather unfounded arrogance at me. Let me make this explicitly clear: your entire argument is being thrashed and crushed in almost every possible angle to the point that you chose to desperately try to nullify the novelization's depiction of the Kota-vs-Malak duel and then didn't even bother addressing the brunt of my argument and instead decided to quote a passage where Shaak Ti nearly killed Marek (a point we had all addressed earlier).


I think you've missed my attitude completely. Which surprises me. I haven't been necessarily tryin to WIN an argument at all. I was in a discussion sort of mode all afternoon. Thats why i kept quoting passages. Trying to say i "desperately" tried to nullify the novelization of the fight is ridiculous. The novel helped my point more than hurt it. I was trying to figure out if we should consider it as canon or not. You answered the question by pointing out that cutscenes only showed the end of the fights, not the fights in their entirety. I accepted this without question if you remember.

Bleah. You've got to stop taking things so personal gideon. Of all the people on this forum, i'm probably the least likely to begin a personal attack on someone. You included. I think the only thing we've even disagreed about before this afternoon in the past was EXACTLY how much more powerful was sidious than everyone else...


i think the only thing that raised my ire this afternoon was the list of fighters listed as better than kenobi without substantiation, which still hastn't been addressed. Then it turned into a ridiculous side note about Caedus vs. Luke, and that was a waste of time. Regardless of what happened in that duel, in which Caedus attacked luke repeatedly with the force, and vice versa, there is still no proof that Caedus was better with a lightsaber than kenobi.

That was the only important point out of THAT entire debate.







This point is perfectly agreeable to me. What you keep trying to say is that BECAUSE marek fought well (or didn't depending on how you interpret that fight) In no way proves that he WOULD defeat Kenobi.

I've asked you REPEATEDLY for evidence that Marek was a top-tier light saber duelist. You have, more than once, after such a post of mine, proceeded by talking about the Shaak Ti duel. There is nothing in that duel to suggest Marek should be considered near the top of the rankings of saber users. There is nothing in the entire game or novel either. If you can prove that Marek WAS a top duelist, great, we can end this discussion move on. I don't believe that enough evidence exist.





once again, i believe my idea of discussing something more than argue over it came across as sarcasm, or something... but w/e, i'll make sure to write EXACTLY what i mean from now on.




In discussing if Caedus actually almost killed Luke or not, i believe it to be EXTREMELY relevant. However, that entire discussion is IRRELEVANT to the discussion about Kenobi and Marek.




A. in other words, at full strength. Seems fair.
B. Caedus had warning. From ben. He ignored it. That is hardly an unfair advantage to Luke.
C. That third party probably saved Caedus life, from Caedus's own point of view. That third party saved caedus's life earlier in the fight as well, when he was trapped in the torture chair. Luke hesistated to discuss ethics with Ben while Jacen was trapped.




i'd like to keep this on Marek and Kenobi though.

Is there any evidence supporting Marek as a top-tier duelist? That's all i'm asking, without an ounce of sarcasm or what did you say? aggressiveness involved um... great one.

Originally posted by truejedi
I think you've missed my attitude completely. Which surprises me.

My annoying habit of being almost always right (save for those occasions that my Master, the Great Publius deems it necessary correct me) prevents that from being the case.



Consider me relieved, because whether or not you 'necessarily' were, I can tell you that you weren't succeeding.



You weren't.



Yes, that's why I quote passages as well. To keep things in 'discussion mode'. Not because it is a tactic employed to provide evidence for a point.

Please, truejedi, spare me the commentary and the excuses for your lapse in judgment and loss of temper. You're human and it's bound to happen, but these excuses and misdirections are as transparent as the ones you subscribe to in our debates.



It really doesn't. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that you didn't address my subsequent analysis of the fight scene.



You should be well within the habit of accepting my conclusions (and those of my Master, the Great Publius!) without question, truejedi. But you will be broken yet.



Personal? No. You weren't hurting my feelings, truejedi; you were getting on my nerves with your presumption.

And aren't you the one who has, thrice before, taken statements of mine out of context as a personal attack against you? Not quite the person to lecture on individuals 'taking things personally' when you are quite clearly a novice in that particular department. No offense.



Your modesty is a sight to behold.



And Skywalker.



You're correct, there. I mean, after all, Kenobi managed to withstand all but twenty strikes per second from General Grievous. There's no proof that Luke Skywalker is on Kenobi's level.



Possibly.



You're missing the point here. Shaak Ti was in held high esteem by Kenobi himself and, as Enyalus has pointed out before, was regarded as an unnaturally gifted duelist by multiple sources. Marek was dominated by her at a time when he had not reached his peak abilities, and then would later go on to defeat Darth Vader in terms of Force mastery and lightsaber prowess, a definite sign of improvement.



Yes, be sure to do that. And be sure to properly master the quote, bold, and italicize functions because this rebuttal was rather sloppy.



I don't let things go very easily. Since it came up, I'm inclined to finish it.



Do not try to undermine or contradict Skywalker's mood and the advantages it gave him. He was stated to be in "battle rage" and was attacking throughout temporary sadism, aggression, and a desire to kill Caedus. It's a time honored Star Wars tradition; attacking out of baser instincts and deep anger gives an opponent an overpowering advantage in single combat. And Luke still didn't obliterate Caedus.



"Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang. Ben's jaw dropped." -- Inferno, page 257. Ben warned Jacen that Skywalker was on the ship, not that he was about to kill him. Luke attacked without warning or personal provocation (not that his actions were unjust), but it was the equivalent to a sneak attack.



That third party probably saved Luke's life as well.



Your claim was that Kenobi could defeat Marek. Your burden to prove. Give me evidence that he would defeat Marek other than that he's a "top tier duelist!"

And be snappy.

Originally posted by Gideon


It really doesn't. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that you didn't address my subsequent analysis of the fight scene.


I believe i did. If you analyzed it further than Shaak Ti was "almost defeated" by Marek with sabers, and i missed that, then i apologize for the oversite. I'll go right back after posting this and check. I disagreed with your analysis, based on that fact that during their entire duel, Marek was using the force to even things up. Shaak Ti and Marek never fought a pure saber duel. THAT'S what makes it irrelevant as proof of marek's pure saber abilities.



You are a legend in your own mind Gideon, and i truly am happy for you.





None taken



gaze as long as you wish, its the least i can offer.




to be fair though, usually the discussion about skywalker relates directly to his relative strength vs. sidious.


I've already admitted the 20 strokes per second logic was poor. No need to rub it in.



I guess i don't understand what you mean by this. as you said, i have missed the point. I agree with everything you just wrote. I wasn't using his fight against Shaak Ti as proof of his incompetence, i was saying it wasn't fair to use it as a measure of his strength.

Yes, he definitly improved, but after all that improvement, he was at or around the level of ANH Vader, which is hardly a saber duelist that we consider top tier. A force user of epic proportion perhaps, but HARDLY is vader considered the gold standard of saber user. Yet ANH vader is probably the top saber duelist that Marek faces.




indeed it was. i failed quite utterly.




Hmmm.. an advantage though? we can call it strength. We can call it extra speed. We can call it more power, but can we call it an advantage? I mean, at the end of the day, that is STILL what that person is capable of, given correct motivation.

We assume, on this forum that each person is performing at peak ability, we dont' go with a "they aren't motivated enough" approach. Jacen is almost always angry, and filled with rage when fighting, its just how he fights. We don't contend that it gives him some EXTRA advantage though.




he not only warned him that he was on the ship, he warned him that he was directly behind him: pg. 256

he also does, in effect, warn jacen that Luke is going to try to kill him. The quote is, still pg. 256.

Its true that luke gave caedus no time to surrender, but i believe had ample warning, had he heeded it.




what i already posted DIRECTLY contradicts that from the man fighting luke. You presume that your interpretation of the fight is going to be better than Caedus's himself? I mean, you are all-powerful and all, but geez, that's claiming a lot. Where is ONE place in the duel where Ben helped luke other than stabbing Caedus at the end? a move which Caedus decided SAVED HIS LIFE.




simple: Kenobi defeated Grievous, and was "the master" of soresu. Not just a master, "the master."

He defeated Anakin, a duel in which anakin, despite being filled with his "battle rage" (which surely gave him some sort of unfair advantage, )was unable to breach the defenses of kenobi, despite being on the offensive for the entire battle. Kenobi manipulated that entire duel, as proven by the ROTS novelization, which i've posted several times in the past.

I would believe the burden of proof would actually be on you to prove that Marek can do ANY of those things. Considering the greatest saber duelist he ever fought was essentially the ANH version of Vader.

Gideon, i just don't think the evidence is there to make the claim Mrek was that good with a saber.
I'm interested by the fact that you believe it to be MY burden of proof. Kenobi is an established highly skilled saber duelist. Marek has never been established as such. To assume that i have to provide evidence that someone who has been established as a skilled saber duelist can defeat one who hasn't been is treading on the toes of simple logic.

Go ahead and establish your claim that Marek IS a highly skilled saber-duelist of Kenobi's caliber, and then we can move on, because asking for more proof than the above would throw back into doubt almost every conclusion this forum has ever come to.




i'm working on homework, so that means that THIS is my top priority, so definitly.

i don't see any other post regarding more on the shaak ti fight than i have already addressed. what exactly were you referring to?

Originally posted by truejedi
I believe i did. If you analyzed it further than Shaak Ti was "almost defeated" by Marek with sabers, and i missed that, then i apologize for the oversite. I'll go right back after posting this and check. I disagreed with your analysis, based on that fact that during their entire duel, Marek was using the force to even things up. Shaak Ti and Marek never fought a pure saber duel. THAT'S what makes it irrelevant as proof of marek's pure saber abilities.

I was referring to my analysis of the Kota vs. Marek fight scene.



It takes a great person indeed when, confronted with perfection, does not act envious or jealous, but revels in that person's glory. And because of that, I thank you.



Great.



It's probably all you can offer. You're not exactly a man of many talents.



Usually, but not always.



Well, really, Skywalker hasn't demonstrated speed on remote par with General Grievous. I guess that means Kenobi and Grievous are on a tier of their own.



Great.



Vader is actually a highly skilled lightsaber duelist. And Ti's accolades need not be mentioned. Both are regarded as top tier duelists.



Proof that, in life, there's not just a first time for everything. I can't blame you, truejedi. It wasn't your first time and, at the rate you're going, definitely not your last.



Here's where I must admonish you for trying to dodge the issue with a Casper-class misdirection. "Strength, extra speed, more power" are advantages, truejedi. Take the syringe out of your arm, snap alert, or concede the point. Your apparent meth addiction is really becoming a detriment to your abilities.



Jacen does not always fight out of anger. For example, he did not have the same deep-rooted hatred or desire for pain that Luke had when he attacked Katarn. Jacen simply removes morals out of the equation. In this scenario, Luke walked in on his nephew torturing his son. The emotional response is hardly the same.



That was prior to the duel. And it was a sneak attack.



The common sense gene must be dormant in your family. That Ben's presence snapped Luke out of his bloodlust is not in question. But it is simple fact that Ben hurling the vibroblade at Jacen was a godsend to Luke as well. Jesus H. Christ.



That's some of the shittiest logic I've seen. Honestly, I think your increased activity here has yielded some disasterous applications of logic.



Your deliberate and woeful ignorance of the facts undermine any attempt to cast yourself in a redeeming light. Obi-Wan was the beneficiary of years of partnership with Anakin, possessing intimate knowledge of his form and of his dueling habits, and happens to be a master of the ultimate defense form. Anakin, on the other hand, was transformed into a raving lunatic whose imagined betrayals ruined him. Sidious himself offers testimony that Skywalker had "been between worlds, then, and vulnerable."

Do not make me correct you again.



Logic 101: those who make the contention bear the burden of proof. Those whose opinions contradict the straightforward interpretation also bear the burden of proof.

You committed the former. You claimed that Kenobi was better. It's your job to prove it.



But as you have pointed out, the greatest lightsaber duelist he defeated was Darth Vader. There weren't dozens of blademasters to pit himself against. That makes it a little hard for someone to establish themselves.

Simple logic indeed.



Your contention. Your job to prove.



Multi-tasking is clearly not one of your limited gifts as we have seen from the quality of your responses. But I'm coming to believe that it wouldn't make a difference one way or another.

Don't disappoint me again, truejedi.

Edit: And I strongly suggest that you do not respond immediately. Take your time and give a structured, thought out response in the morning. I have yet to be anything but underwhelmed by your misapplication of logic thus far, and I'm too set in my ways to endure another bout. Wait until morning or the afternoon and give me something worthwhile.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Blatantly false.

Kenobi kept up until at 20 strikes/second (that's five strikes per lightsaber in one second), at which point he went on the offensive. There was no part of the fight that Obi-Wan did not dominate according to the novel, and the Movie has him winning until he gets thrown over the edge.

Kenobi > GG. Fact. It is in canon. Argue against GL if you want, but you'll lose. (A fight with both characters at their peaks would also show General Kenobi's victory, and I'm willing to substantiate that.)

I meant to say Obi-Wan > GG, dude.

Well, that's what happens when you're black. You constantly miscommunicate.

Originally posted by Gideon
I was referring to my analysis of the Kota vs. Marek fight scene.



ok. Once again, during that fight, Marek is constantly attacking via the force. Marek never has a duel in which he doesn't use the force in fact. His skills as a pure lightssaber duelist are an absolute unknown.




I can't believe you actually said i was great at something... if i ever bothered to profile anything, i might that. Oh wait, but i don't.




reminds me of your previous compliment. makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.



This from the guy who doesn't make personal attacks?




oh good grief.




Isn't there a quote somewhere where it says that it looked as though luke had 20 sabers at once? Ah well, even bringing THAT quote up is petty. I have repeatedly removed the 20 strokes-per as evidence.




see above.




suited vader is a highly skilled lightsaber duelist? give me a highly skilled opponent that HE fought. This time, you made the claim of Vader's greatness to be fair. Not contradicting. I just don't remember him winning many duels using solely his saber. He always uses some overwhelming TK attacks to substantiate it. Stripping him of the offensive force attacks would rob him of much of his potency.




and it wasn't. I had to go back and edit the last in one place. forgot one little ol backslash.




they are not advantages if a duelist has that ability anyway. Do we consider Anakin's victory over dooku to be less legitimate because he was angry? I think not. Bloodlusted Luke is luke at his peak. Its not an advantage that gives luke abilities that luke didn't have anyway.
The meth addiction is fine. I can quit whenever I want to.



Okay, remove the word Jacen, insert the word Bane. Or remove the word Jacen, and insert the word Anakin. Sith fight with anger. Jacen WAS kinda different in his sithliness. My point remains. Bane fought with rage and hatred in his duel with the Jedi. We don't discount his performace because he was angry, and say, but a calmer bane isn't as good. It just doesn't make sense. We assume that all of these combatants are motivated to fight.





it was a second before the duel. Jacen is answering Ben's words, "its your funeral" when Luke attacks him. The sneak attack was only a sneak attack because Caedus ignored a perfectly good warning.




This also from that same guy i mentioned above



Not according to the book Gideon. According to the book, Ben doing that saved Caedus's life. Caedus would have been defeated by Luke. he was losing.

I think you are envisioning a scenario where Luke broke the garrotte, staggered away, and Caedus walks over and cuts him in two or something.

that simply WASN'T how the fight was going to go down from Caedus's view, and if that isn't what was going to happen from the guy who was going to do the walking and the cutting, those actions never would have taken place. Any intepretation of the fight we have has to take a backseat to a view from the fighter who was supposedly about to win.



you are free to think what you wish gideon. Simple fact is, in the middle of the first page, you yourself called Obi-wan a top-tier duelist.
If the words of the infallible gideon can't persuade you, my unworthy effort never will, so i might as well quite now.


The logic was not poor. Being called the master of the highest form of defensive lightsabery by a being of Windu's caliber is more high praise then Marek ever recieves from any source on his lightsaber ability. His force use is praised repeatedly, but never his skill with a saber.

Considering how many times you have referred to kenobi holding Shaak Ti in high esteem as a point of establishing HER relative strength, it strains credulity that you would try to act like that Mace Windu's opinion of Kenobi is completely beside the point in establishing the ability of kenobi.




there is no ignorance of the facts. I'm also not too worried about casting myself in a "redeeming light" so luckily i'm not missing out on anything.

Yes, Obi-Wan held advantages over anakin. Lets look at your claims of advantages here:

His partnership, and possessing intimate knowledge of form and habits. NOT ADVANTAGES Anakin possesses the same knowledge and familiarity.

master of ultimate defense form: advantage, but one that would be equally prevalent against Marek.

raving lunatic Anakin, definite advantage kenobi.

All that said, Kenobi still defeated Anakin, which is still something more impressive than marek has ever done.



I have done so. Both by showing his saber accomplishments (Grievous (whom you ignored by the way, concentrating instead on vader, whom you claimed weakened) and Skywalker.
and by giving praise from a highlevel duelist himself in Windu that establishes the extent of Kenobi's mastery of a lightsaber.

The final point in my proof, to prove the above better than Kenobi is to make the claim that Marek has not accomplished as much, nor has he ever face a saber duelist on the same level as both Grievous and Skywalker in a PURE LIGHTSABER DUEL, which marek has NEVER been shown to fight in.

You are yet to prove that second point false, and until you do, then my proof would stand. Belittling Kenobi's victories DO NOT change the fact that Marek has not ONE PURE SABER DUEL to his credit. There is nothing to place him as a credible saber threat when the use of the force as an offensive weapon is forbidden. Nothing.

Thats all the proof that can be offered of that. Until you provide ANYTHING that shows marek had the ability to win a saber fight against a top level opponent without the force, then that proof stands gideon,

You said it yourself. He didn't establish himself. He never did. There is NOTHING to support his ability as a pure saber duelist. He used the force in every duel. So his pure saber ability is COMPLETELY unsubstantiated.

It is poor logic indeed to ASSUME an unknown is greater than a top-tier duelist. In fact it is the same logic that has kept Revan from being a god on these forums.

It doesn't matter how often you belittle Kenobi's accomplishments, at the end of the day, he has won pure lightsaber contests. Marek never has. I can't make it much clearer than that. If you make the claim that Marek CAN defeat an opponent without the force, be aware that you are making a claim, and in that case, according to your own rules, the burden of proof will shift to you.





i dont intend to. This is it. This is a simple situation where all the facts support my side of the argument, none of the facts support yours, (do i need to say one more time that Marek has never even fought a pure saber contest?) but you are most likely going to come back with alleged "poor logic, and incompetence, " based on nothing but your own opinion.

To place Marek above Kenobi takes a long journey down the road of speculation, and i'm done traveling it. If we can make assumptions of this magnitude, then honestly, what is even the point of this forum? Might as well call it Fanboy's R us, and move on with it.

i'm probably done with this. I have posted good arguments, if you choose to call them rubbish, (and you will) then i guess i have no choice but to turn back to my alleged meth addiction for comfort.

I know.

I tried to tell this crippled kid in a hospital that I hoped he felt better, but I ended up just ripping him in half.

I'm afraid I'll have to inform Faunus of your racism towards people with black skin, Gideon. You're gonna get pwnt.

Blax, that wasn't because you're black. It was probably because you're possessed or something.

Faunus is like penulti-mo anti-Blaxican.

So what. He'll do anything to make Gideon suffer.

Apparently not.

Publius still lives.

Are you really done, truejedi? Because you've committed about a dozen fallacies and misapplications of logic that I'm dying to embarrass you with. But if you're done, I'll reiterate with the simple conclusion.

You've misinterpretted a great deal of my responses, you seemingly have no understanding of what an advantage is, you willingly ignore the fact that Anakin was "between worlds" and emotionally and mentally unstable (thus removing his ability to defeat Kenobi), you willingly ignore the fact that Skywalker executed a sneak attack, you willingly ignore the fact that Ben hurling a vibroblade in Caedus's back also prevented Caedus from continuing the fight. And lastly, you do not understand that managing to withstand General Grievous's speed and ferocity and defeating an emotionally and mentally unstable Anakin isn't grounds for superiority over Marek.

Your entire argument -- the whole damn thing -- the entire thing -- is complete crap. The whole thing. It's entirety. 100% constitution. Every fiber of its being. It is a joke.

It should be used in colleges around the world to demonstrate how a single argument can consist of a million fallacies and misapplications of logic.

For the record, I said I wasn't taking this personal, not that I didn't give out personal attacks which, surprise, surprise, were all said in sarcasm, as is my general attitude.

But this? This was seriously a terrible argument. I hope you'll summon more patience and give more effort the next time.

@ Blaxican:

If he was white, he probably deserved it.

Wait...

Why is defeating GG not a basis for declaring Obi-Wan's superiority in lightsabers?

What has Galen ever done with just a lightsaber that would make him a match for GG, let alone Obi-Wan?

And the kid was Swedish.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Apparently not.

Publius still lives.

What you don't know is that he only allows Publius to continue with his life because that way Gideon will suffer even more under his grasp. Without him, Gideon would probably believe himself to be a god or some BS.

Or kill himself.

But you're right, either way the suffering ends.

oh gosh its hard to be done sometimes. But eventually i guess we have to let it go sometime.

If you are truly dying to embarass me, go right ahead, i've had worse things happen, and i live to serve.

it all boils down to the fact that Marek has never fought a single pure lightsaber battle, and in all honesty, that should give him a big fat N/A in any ranking sysem. However, for some reason, you are putting him automatically above a guy that, for sake of this argument, lets put him 25th. Which hopefully will be enough to satisfy EVERYONE. How do you put a N/A above a 25th?


EDIT: oh, and if you do use it in a college textbook some day, hook me up with some royalties.

LOL. 'That should give him a big N/A in any ranking system'?

You truly don't know what you're talking about, do you?

Sadly for you, there are *no* 'pure lightsaber battles' in SW, as all of them are considered 'all-out'.

By the use of your logic, there is no proof that Dooku is a better duelist than Kenobi, since he Force-pushed him out of the way, so it doesn't count.

are you kidding me? is THAT what this is all about? i NEVER said marek would lose to Kenobi in an all out. The person who started this thread had a specifice "sabers only" part of it. I believe that is what me and gideon have been arguing about. If we have been arguing about an all-out, then it has been the most ridiculous waste of time thus far in my life.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Wait...

Why is defeating GG not a basis for declaring Obi-Wan's superiority in lightsabers?

What has Galen ever done with just a lightsaber that would make him a match for GG, let alone Obi-Wan?

And the kid was Swedish.

If you want to take the novelization's depiction of the fight, Obi-Wan was in a state of unity with the Force when he confronted Grievous (twice). Moreover, on paper, the general is a far more capable combatant than Kenobi himself, being a master of all seven modes of combat and being equipped with internal computers capable of analyzing and mimicking any combat stance or habit. The reason that Windu sent Kenobi after Grievous was that Windu correctly identified that Soresu doesn't answer a particular weakness: it is a simple yet highly useful form. A high mastery of it would nullify virtually all of the general's ferocity.

Meanwhile, Marek has battled against simulations of Kenobi on multiple scenarios and has comfortably outdueled each one.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Or kill himself.

But you're right, either way the suffering ends. The Captain speaks the truth. Publius keeps Gideon in blissful check, forcing the insufferable fool to acknowledge his own inferiority. Without that, I would be forced to have him smitten, and that would be bad for the economy.

Originally posted by truejedi
it has been the most ridiculous waste of time thus far in my life.


Haha, I know.

Originally posted by Gideon
being a master of all seven modes of combatProve it.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Haha, I know.

we were discussing a saber contest Valerian. Just because you refuse to acknowledge that one could take place, it hardly means we weren't discussing one.

I don't refuse to acknowledge anything, truejedi, it is a fact. And the fact that people put 'saber duel only' on their thread titles is stupid.

Originally posted by Gideon

Meanwhile, Marek has battled against simulations of Kenobi on multiple scenarios and has comfortably outdueled each one.

it was a droid gideon. A DROID. Surely i'm not the only one who thinks you have strayed into the RIDICULOUS now. Are you saying that PROXY is ==to kenobi now?

Originally posted by Faunus
Prove it.



"Given the number of Jedi has faced, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or in all of them." -- Mace Windu, RotS, pg 294.

And the Magnaguards were programmed with all seven forms of combat and trained personally by Grievous.

A + B = C.

C = you being a complete failure for questioning me!

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
I don't refuse to acknowledge anything, truejedi, it is a fact. And the fact that people put 'saber duel only' on their thread titles is stupid.

lol, it doesn't mean we weren't discussing it. I've made similar points to your own in the past, in fact, in every thread i've ever made, i've specifically made it all out only.

This thread had a saber-only category, and thats what we were discussing, stupid or not.

He's just saying PROXY = Kenobi's techniques, lightsaber form, and even his own tactics.

EDIT - I know, I just like to mess with your mind.

Originally posted by truejedi
it was a droid gideon.

So was Grievous.



Because CAPSLOCK has become one of your small coterie of friends, I will reiterate:

SO IS GRIEVOUS.



I dare not venture where you dwell. I'm sure if I visit, though, you could show me around.



I am saying that Galen Marek dueled an elite dueling/training droid that specifically adopted Kenobi's style, mannerisms, and appearance. And Marek slaughtered him. He has familiarity with Kenobi's abilities. Not the case for Kenobi.


Edit: Thank you, Captain, for trying to lend a hand. But truejedi isn't feeling well and is keen on continuing his lame argument that he said he was done with.

You guys are obnoxious. Gideon, you still haven't proven conclusively that Grievous was a "master" of all seven forms (you can't), so you have failed. Go enjoy no more daylight savings time and keep in mind that you're only alive because of me. Everyone here knows it.

Originally posted by Gideon
If you want to take the novelization's depiction of the fight, Obi-Wan was in a state of unity with the Force when he confronted Grievous (twice).

You're kidding me.

God, that is such bullshit.



All useless compared to the powah ofthe force. 313



And the ones that we saw he used the force... which wouldn't help much in a lightsaber only duel. There's still no reason to think that Galen has shown greater lightsaber than Kenobi has.

Originally posted by Gideon
Are you really done, truejedi? Because you've committed about a dozen fallacies and misapplications of logic that I'm dying to embarrass you with. But if you're done, I'll reiterate with the simple conclusion.

You've misinterpretted a great deal of my responses, you seemingly have no understanding of what an advantage is, you willingly ignore the fact that Anakin was "between worlds" and emotionally and mentally unstable (thus removing his ability to defeat Kenobi), you willingly ignore the fact that Skywalker executed a sneak attack, you willingly ignore the fact that Ben hurling a vibroblade in Caedus's back also prevented Caedus from continuing the fight. And lastly, you do not understand that managing to withstand General Grievous's speed and ferocity and defeating an emotionally and mentally unstable Anakin isn't grounds for superiority over Marek.

Your entire argument -- the whole damn thing -- the entire thing -- is complete crap. The whole thing. It's entirety. 100% constitution. Every fiber of its being. It is a joke.

It should be used in colleges around the world to demonstrate how a single argument can consist of a million fallacies and misapplications of logic.

For the record, I said I wasn't taking this personal, not that I didn't give out personal attacks which, surprise, surprise, were all said in sarcasm, as is my general attitude.

But this? This was seriously a terrible argument. I hope you'll summon more patience and give more effort the next time.



I guess i'm not done then. Can't seem to just let it go. I'm done with lengthy point by point disagreements though. Lets call this my closing argument, then my side is going to rest.

Since you are are fond of the legal scenario, You gideon, are like a defense attorney whose client is guilty. There is no evidence that supports Marek as skillful lightsaber duelist. None.

You know this, and you realize your only opportunity to win is continue to state that my "evidence" of kenobi's superiority is crap.
so you continue to do so. Even when the evidence is perfectly. You ignore the fact that Kenobi has been long established on this forum as a top tier duelist, you ignore the fact that you said so yourself several pages ago, and instead discount every bit of evidence we are given supporting Kenobi's ability.

The approach for that is very good. Its hard to prove something when every shred of evidence is described as idiocy.

The truth, when asked to defend your own client, or the contention that Marek is actually superior to Kenobi, you have nothing. The only fallback you have is to continue to attack MY assessement of kenobi.

The truth in this scenario is you have picked the wrong argument. I am right, and you are wrong,
no matter how many times you want to claim my logic is poor, or full of fallacies, or my argument is terrible, that will never change.

And the longer this goes, the worse and worse you look for NEVER supporting your own implied counter-claim that Marek is better.

You pulled a masterful aside, or perhaps it was valerian, getting back into the Caedus Luke debate, because my luke fanboyism is admittedly my biggest weakness. I will no longer answer that one, because it IS irrelevant to this discussion.

If you want to say you win this debate, gideon, fine, i have no problem with "winning" and "losing" the debate. Really doesn't matter. I have no aspirations to be a lawyer. The simply fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, i'm still right, and you are still wrong.

Until you offer some evidence of Marek being a capable being with a lightsaber when he isn't constantly attacking with the force tho, its as if you can't even come up with an alibi for your client.

This thing slides quickly into "beyond reasonable doubt" if you continue to do nothing but attack my arguments and offer no counter-arguments of your own.

My two points that matter stand, no matter how many times you insult them they ARE excellent evidence.


In Pure Saber contests:
1. Kenobi: Defeated Grievous, Defeated Skywalker, called the Master of Soresu.

2. Marek: Not one victory to his name in a pure saber contest.



These sir are the facts that i have repeatedly put forth, and you can't touch them. You haven't even tried with the second one. I know you are incapable of giving up, but insulting the above as a poor argument for Kenobi's superiority is simply put: Wrong.

I had a multi-paragraph opener bringing you to task for how stupid you've been, truejedi, but I think that a succinct response will make it clear.

For the record? You have been an idiot of ridiculously major proportions. This will be our final debate on, well, anything.

Your first mistake:



You have misconstrued my intention from the very beginning, which is that I never made the contention that Marek was superior to Kenobi as a duelist. We are not having a disagreement of premise or contention. I have simply asked you to provide evidence that Kenobi was better -- which is not the same thing as saying "LOLZ MAREK > KENOBI."

Your second mistake:



This is a blatant appeal to the majority, truejedi, which is another of your many logical fallacies. It is my personal belief that Marka Ragnos is among the most powerful individuals ever in the mythos, even though, as Lightsnake points out, there is no conclusive evidence that would name him as such. So the collective opinion of the majority of debaters around here never constitutes itself as fact. Ever.

Your third mistake:



No, I've simply put it into proper perspective. You're the one parading about proclaiming "OBI DEFEATED ANI" without elucidating upon the reasons why. Skywalker's dueling ability is considerably superior to Obi-Wan's own; he lost because he was in the heat of psychopathy, "between worlds and vulnerable," losing all sense of combat objectivity and rationality. Kenobi, on the other hand, was the beneficiary of greater experience and an appreciation for Skywalker's combat abilities. He had trained the boy, had tutored him and fought by his side for years, and was intimately familiar with his combat style and habits. That is why he won.



Where did I say that Marek was better?

Your fourth mistake:



Your proclamations of victory don't impress me. You've deluded yourself into thinking that we have separate agendas or beliefs. I've simply asked you to provide evidence for Kenobi's superiority and you have yet to satisfy me. In that regard, I've undermined you with mere words, and exposed a rather obvious attempt to one-up ol' Gideon. You have failed and will continue to fail. You'll need Advent, Nai, or Publius to do that.



Where have I claimed that Marek was a better duelist than Kenobi?



No, you won't discuss it any longer because you're dead wrong.



I never made the contention. I simply asked you to prove that Kenobi is superior beyond all reasonable doubt. You haven't, and so my "client" is currently walking the streets as a free man... er... idea.



I admire the tenacity, but as I've said, you'll need Advent, Nai, or Publius for that delusion to become reality. By yourself? You barely qualify as "annoying."

I really don't know what to say other than that I hope you find something better to do with your free time. As far as debaters go, you're one of the worst.

So basically you guys agree that Marek is superior in the force, and Obi is superior with a lightsaber, right?

That's right. But what about the all-out?

Originally posted by Ultimate Vader
That's right. But what about the all-out?

I'd give to Marek via the force.

I'm still looking for more conclusive proof. But, yeah, Marek destroys Obi-Wan in an all out fight.

Originally posted by skywalker833
]And last, Dooku, in a lightsaber duel I consider obi wan his superior.

You must be joking Dooku would tool Kenobi in a saber duel

Nah.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm still looking for more conclusive proof.

There is, no actual reason to believe Marek could last... even thirty seconds, let alone defeat RotS Obi-Wan in a duel.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
There is, no actual reason to believe Marek could last... even thirty seconds, let alone defeat RotS Obi-Wan in a duel.

Blaxican, joking aside, you're falling fast to the same woeful ignorance that truejedi is contaminated with. The contention was that Kenobi > Marek in terms of lightsaber abilities. I never denied it, but simply asked for proof. Marek has a superior command of the Force and greater potency with it; incredible reserves of energy. He also has deep knowledge and familiarity with Kenobi through PROXY. He went on to defeat Darth Vader and Kazdan Paratus who, with his saberpike alone, was capable of destroying "legions" of Confederacy droids.

And by 'duel', I hope you mean a lightsaber fight. Force-wise, he crushes Kenobi. And no, it isn't close.

I realize that Marek would rape the shit out of him in the force and in an all-out duel. But, lo and behold, I never have and never will give a flying **** about those two scenarios in this thread.

My point is that Marek would get curbed in lightsabers only, man. PORIXE doesn't mean anything because Proxie is a droid, completely. The general is a cyborg, he has a brain in addition to all that computerized machinery. The fact that PROXIE is but a droid means that he doesn't have the natural intuition that is responsible for Soldier's victories on the battlefield more than anything else, doesn't have natural resourcefulnesses that humans have, and most importantly does not have the force. PROXIE is a cheap smoke and mirror replica of Obi-Wan, he is not Obi-Wan. Hooray, Galen knows the ins and outs of Soresu... so what? That's the only advantage he has. As far as lightsabers only is concerned, he has not shown any dueling feats what-so-ever. Everytime he fights he uses an excessive amount of offensive force attacks on his opponents, so really you trying to factor in his fights with Shaak and Kohm and Vader and Paratus and even Proxie is pointless.

And for the record, "legions of droids" is irrelevant because it's ambiguous. A legion of soldiers in modern times means a large number of soldiers. "Large number" is equally ambiguous. An army means the same thing. They're not quantifiable numbers. Thirty men can count as a legion or an army, though I'm sure he destroyed more than that.

Hell, Jedi run from droidekas and Magnaguards were designed specifically to duel and overpower most Jedi. So the idea that human intuition automatically makes a difference is bullshit. Marek has battled a replica of Kenobi before, knowing all about Soresu and his habits. It's an advantage, period.

When you give me something other than "LOLZ HE DEFEETED AN ANGRY ANAKIN" we'll talk.

They do run from them, they also kill the shit out of them as well. I seem to remember Obi-Wan disposing of two by himself, and Asouka defeating three. By herself. Without injury.

Badass Magna Guards. haermm

Hell I remember Kenobi killing like three of them by dropping a big ass block on them.

Wait... what was that? What did he use to dispose of them? He used his human resourcefulnesses.

Fact is that, in the end, the droids always get defeated; they kill their share of people and then they die. Considering Maga Guards and Droidekas are susceptible to the force their whole purpose is FUBAR anyway. Tell me Gideon, and let's not use GL logic here, what would happen to a Droideka if a Jedi were to use a simple force push on it?

And PROXIE knows his mannerisms and his fighting style but still isn't him. Greivous knew Soresu and had fought Kenobi before, yet still ended up losing to him. You say that Kenobi had the perfect fighting style to beat him, but he still at least showed the reflexes to block all of GG's strikes. When has Marek ever done the same? Or similiar? Can you prove he is fast enough and good enough of a duelist to move that fast at all? Can you even prove that Marek has defeated Proxie without using offensive force techniques?

I haven't even mentioned Anakin... Watch who you're talking to, Gideon.

As I told you before, the novelization says that Obi-Wan became a living conduit of Force energy when he battled General Grievous. In fact, the narrator says that the Magnaguards whom Obi-Wan crushed with the gigantic crate were "well beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat."

The point about droids always being defeated is stupid. Your point? Hell, so do the Sith. Does this mean that they are any less capable? To quote the official databank, Marek had "all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat" and Wookieepedia lists him as a master of Juyo according to the novelization, which requires him to be a "high end master of multiple forms."

Which Kenobi is not.

And by 'you', I mean the so-called opposition. Raise your game or get off the court, Blaxican.

By the way, I'm not mad at you or anything. You just need to understand how much you suck compared to cool people like me.

Originally posted by Gideon
As I told you before, the novelization says that Obi-Wan became a living conduit of Force energy when he battled General Grievous. In fact, the narrator says that the Magnaguards whom Obi-Wan crushed with the gigantic crate were "well beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat." But not beyond Ahsoka's, apparently.

Originally posted by Gideon
As I told you before, the novelization says that Obi-Wan became a living conduit of Force energy when he battled General Grievous.

..kay?

has mastered his skills. He's the Soresu master. The man.




Quote from the novel itself, please. **** Wookiepedia.




BackPeddling fool. Publius shall know of this. 313

I'm black, playing games on the court is something you have no chance of beating me in.




Journey sucks.

I'll ****ing kill you. I will stab you and hire a goat to rape your ****ing corpse. YOU WILL DIE SIR.

And I'm at my mother's. But I have Monday and Tuesday off, so I'll get you the passage sometime soon.

I am showing immense restraint here.

And why the **** do you have Monday off?

Originally posted by Faunus
I am showing immense restraint here.

And why the **** do you have Monday off?

No idea. For some reason, we have Monday and Tuesday off. I'm sure there's a logical reason. National Incest Day?

Incest is out of style in New York.

I have Tuesday off, and next Tuesday for no reason, but Monday is overkill. You do not deserve a four day weekend.

Originally posted by Gideon
No idea. For some reason, we have Monday and Tuesday off. I'm sure there's a logical reason. National Incest Day?

Does it have anything to do with the elections?

Originally posted by Faunus
Incest is out of style in New York.

I have Tuesday off, and next Tuesday for no reason, but Monday is overkill. You do not deserve a four day weekend.

Yes I do. For being sexy. It's a burden.

Can anyone please logically explain to me why the hell do Marek and Obi-Wan have the same amount of votes for the 'who will win' poll? I mean, who actually thinks Obi-Wan will take the all-out?

*Votes for Kenobi*

msn-tongue

Originally posted by Autokrat
*Votes for Kenobi*

msn-tongue
hehehe
so did I in spite

It depends,

Luke could in my opinion tool the shit out of Marek in an all out, Obi-Wan would be horrible sodomized in the ass in an all out, not sure, I don't know if Marek would win in a lightsaber, but I'm leaning towards Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Gaevus Mesias
It depends,

Luke could in my opinion tool the shit out of Marek in an all out, Obi-Wan would be horrible sodomized in the ass in an all out, not sure, I don't know if Marek would win in a lightsaber, but I'm leaning towards Obi-Wan.
ROTJ Luke?????????????????????
If so then your out of your damn mind

I would guess he's talking about NJO Luke, but I either way I have no idea what Luke has to do with anything.

Oh, and Obi-Wan beats Marek into a bloody, whimpering pulp with his superior Force power, luck, beard needles, human resourcefulness, and the Kool-Aid guy.

Hooray for Human resourcefulness.

Hooray.

Hoo. Hoo. Hoo. Hoo.

Hoohoo. HooHoo. HOOHOO.

HOOHOOHOOHOO.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
I don't refuse to acknowledge anything, truejedi, it is a fact. And the fact that people put 'saber duel only' on their thread titles is stupid.
pretty much veryone here puts in a sabers only category along with a force and all-out category. I do not believe it is stupid.

It's still stupid.

I voted for obi wan. I don't see any reason why Marek could beat him. Sure he is powerful in the force, but Obi-Wan isn't too bad himself. As I said before:
1. Obi-Wan
2. Galen Marek
3. Obi-Wan

LULZ TEH FANBOISZ!11!1!

@skywalker833

Obiwan may not be "too bad himself" with the force, but he is not even close to Galen. He can do the exact same thing Dooku did to Obiwan in ROTS and he would finish him just like Dooku could have done if it were one on one.

then gideon, saving myself the trouble of going back and quoting everything you said a few days back:

What a huge waste of time! You were arguing for the sake of arguing. I argue because i like to find a consensus and walk away with a decision about characters (ala Holocron)

If you seriously never meant to prove Marek could beat Kenobi by saying that Kenobi couldn't beat Marek, then my hat is off to you sir for instead of choosing, as i said earlier "a battle you can't win", but rather, an argument you couldn't possibly lose.

You know as well as i do that it is truly impossible to prove anything in star wars. All that can be done is view evidence from both sides and the choose the most likely outcome. Since you never had any intention of presenting evidence, you did indeed leave me flailing about, trying to prove that your interpretation of kenobi's accomplishments was incorrect. Of course, proving an intepretation is false is impossible thanks to the fact that its fiction...

so congrats. If winning was your goal, you accomplished that, and i salute you.

You did say one thing correctly though. That was our last debate. As i said before, i like to discuss star wars. "what did you think of" is an actual sentence that i use sometimes.

Circular, meaningless debates are an absolutely useless commodity to me.

Finally, because i can't resist saying so: Common sense dictates that if you weren't convinced that kenobi could beat Marek, then you were at least partially convinced that Marek could beat kenobi, else you pictured a never ending battle, or else you truly were just trying to screw with me.

Regardless, congrats on your procedure. Pardon me if i avoid taking part in it again. That is not the purpose for which i visit these forums.