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I don't know the full abilities of Shadow gaurds. So if any of you think this wouldn't be that close, I can change it up a bit.
Any ways, who wins?

Hm, I think the Shadow Guards, maybe. I mean a single Shadow Guard gives Starkiller some trouble.
Starkiller>>Shadow Guard
Starkiller>two Shadow Guards
Starkiller barely> three Shadow Guards
four Shadow Guards>Starkiller
I just can't see Luke handling all ten Shadow Guards, I mean they all have force powers and are formidable opponents

Nice one Mizu, pulled those stats. out of something factual?

I see NJO Luke (TUF, presumably) winning with difficulty.

Ya I did I'm saying they are all formidable force users, I basing this simply on the difficulty SK had with a single Shadow Guard. I doubt luke can take on TEN. I mean Obi-Wan allegedly can't duel for Magna Guards, all those blades and force powers will be difficult to block and form an offensive at once

Seeing as how even Galen, and certainly not Obi-Wan can match NJO Luke, I don't see how Luke is going to be swamped. It'd be hard no doubt, but there's little to suggest that Luke would die.

^This is true, I honestly think that in terms of power Luke>10 Shadow Guards, but even Luke is going to have a shitload of trouble parrying ten blasts of Force lightning, or ten saberstaffs

The comic and novelization say that the first Shadow Guard that Marek confronted was a difficult opponent. He outmaneuvered Marek once or twice according to the comic and the novelization depicts that he was a decently formidable foe in lightsaber prowess. When he attemped to electrocute Marek, the apprentice hurled lightning back at him, and the coil of lightning met in midair. Marek, according to the narration, began to overpower the Guard due to superior Force strength -- the Shadow Guard tried using both hands and even adding the extra wattage and energy of his saberpike into the mix, but was blasted away.

I know Luke is more powerful than Marek, but I'm not convinced that any of them are stronger than him by miles.

Bane takes out about eight of these guys one on one without much trouble when he's ambushed.

Facing Luke head on? These guys are dead. Assuming any can stay standing after a Force wave, they'll find Luke slicing into them or hitting them with a storm of emerald lightning.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bane takes out about eight of these guys one on one without much trouble when he's ambushed.

Facing Luke head on? These guys are dead. Assuming any can stay standing after a Force wave, they'll find Luke slicing into them or hitting them with a storm of emerald lightning.
Bane existed about a thousand years before they were even born. These are the Emperor's Shadow Guard from The Force Unleashed, what you say is impossible

Wait...did I confuse them with the Umbaran Shadow guards? Thought they were the same thing

No, lol.

NJO Luke ftw..

I'm pretty sure Luke basically rapes them. He took on thousands of Vong, seven SLAYERS, and Shimrra all in one battle. Basically untouchable.

Depends on how they attack Luke if they are tactically sound then they could take him if not his overwhelming strength in the force wins the day. If they concentrate their force powers in concert and engage him in close quarters with good team work they could wear him down and defeat him eventually.

I doubt it. No matter how they come after his he probably just could just eliminate them with emerald lightning. I doubt they could ever break down his lightsaber defense either.

Did Luke have Emerald Lightning in NJO? I thought it was DN technique. Even so, I still don't think they could beat him. Saber-wise, I think they'd top him eventually, but give Luke the Force and...

Originally posted by Lucien A
Did Luke have Emerald Lightning in NJO? I thought it was DN technique. Even so, I still don't think they could beat him. Saber-wise, I think they'd top him eventually, but give Luke the Force and...

Ya Luke had Emerald Lightning in the NJO.

I have to read the NJO again. It sucked so bad I skipped half the words.

The Guard's wald dam f*** luke to death, if luke went at one, all the other's wald lightning him to death, luke's weak, reckon if starkiller could kill vader, starkiller would have a good chance at killing luke

Originally posted by Darth Storm
The Guard's wald dam f*** luke to death, if luke went at one, all the other's wald lightning him to death, luke's weak, reckon if starkiller could kill vader, starkiller would have a good chance at killing luke

- Whats 'wald'?
- Starkiller wouldn't stand a chance against NJO Luke.

Originally posted by Darth Storm
The Guard's wald dam f*** luke to death, if luke went at one, all the other's wald lightning him to death, luke's weak, reckon if starkiller could kill vader, starkiller would have a good chance at killing luke You're a newb, so I won't poke fun at your ignorance. But no, just no.

WTH's a wald?

Originally posted by Lucien A
I have to read the NJO again. It sucked so bad I skipped half the words.

Are you kidding? I thought it was a great series overall. It had some iffy parts, but overall it was good.

I'll concede I didn't read the first half, but Star by Star onwards (I think it was SbS) became an endurance test.

Really? I think youre the first person I've talked to who said they didn't like it.

Luke gets fd in the A by ten Shadow Guards, he could tool two with the force and two with a saber in like five seconds, but in that time the other six would impale him. Luke is miles and miles and miles ahead of any single Shadow Guard, but these are ten foes who have Sith teachings. Just a question by what time does Luke surpass Yoda? I'm sure that by NJO he has, but I'm just curioous exactly when.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Really? I think youre the first person I've talked to who said they didn't like it.

I also really enjoyed the NJO series, but it seems that most people here didn't like it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Luke gets fd in the A by ten Shadow Guards, he could tool two with the force and two with a saber in like five seconds, but in that time the other six would impale him. Luke is miles and miles and miles ahead of any single Shadow Guard, but these are ten foes who have Sith teachings. Just a question by what time does Luke surpass Yoda? I'm sure that by NJO he has, but I'm just curioous exactly when. He has. And I don't think Luke would sacrifice his defences in exchange for killing a couple of 'em.

And Glentract..................really? A lot of people here don't like them.

how many shadow guards were there exactly? we see what, 2 or 3 in the force unleashed? Just wondering exactly HOW big a contingent of force users palpatine had wandering around the galaxy. Every force user they mention alive at the time of the destruction of the second death star belittles ROTJ even more btw.

some climax. Heck, there was an entire order of sith hiding on korriban.

Okay, First of all, you stole my catchphrase. Expect a visit from 20, very scary lawyers. Assuming that I don't get there first.
Secondly, I'm torn between Luke not being able to handle them all, If Starkiller struggled against one the 10 are really going to be a b*tch, and Luke speedblitzing them, like Bane did to the Umbiwasits. Hmmmm........ I'll go with the latter cuz I think NJO was the time that Luke achieved his 20 sabers at once feat.

NJO Luke wins, shadow guards aren't all that powerful, beat them on my first try.

Lol. well good for your gaming skills.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Lol. well good for your gaming skills.

I wasn't trying to brag, I'm just saying that based on what posters on this forums say, NJO Luke is a god and would pwn any dude w/some force powers.

Pretty much. But it does depend from which point of the NJO it is. Vector Prime, still a mortal---The Unifying Force, demi-god.

Even as of Vector Prime, he's a beast. As of DE, he is already amazing, so any time after that, even more so.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Even as of Vector Prime, he's a beast. As of DE, he is already amazing, so any time after that, even more so.

Post-DE, he and his beloved wife (who, by herself, does as good of a job as kicking the shit out of her ill-behaved nephew as Luke himself did) together were nearly butchered by a Trade Federation-era droideka. He was also overpowered by Desann. And then nearly killed by Lumiya. As of Legacy of the Force, Luke Skywalker may be the single greatest combatant in the saga, but he is hardly infallible. As he himself admits multiple times throughout the New Jedi Order series to Vergere and Jacen, his personal insecurities and philosophy limit him incredibly as a warrior.

Yet in DE we see him go toe-to-toe with Sidious in a lightsaber fight while Sidious was in a "fresh" body. His lightsaber skill was at least in the same tier as Yoda already. Or the fact that he defeated Lumiya before DE. Or absorbing cannon blasts from an AT-AT. Or that Gethzerion couldn't really defeat him. Theres more, but I think you get the general idea. Luke was a hauss regardless of any one instance that made him seem weak.

I prefer to think of the Droideka incidence as PIS. I've never read about it, but it just seems so... out of whack. MAybe he's just not good at deflecting rapid fire.

Originally posted by Lucien A
I prefer to think of the Droideka incidence as PIS. I've never read about it, but it just seems so... out of whack. MAybe he's just not good at deflecting rapid fire.

If this is the Hand of Thrawn duology then it wasn't really PIS. It was just a case of several droids firing at Luke from more than two directions with rapid fire blasts.

He was caught between a storm of laser fire and did well to survive under the circumstances. It didn't help that the fight was in a closed room.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yet in DE we see him go toe-to-toe with Sidious in a lightsaber fight while Sidious was in a "fresh" body.

Which means what?

While he may be the most powerful Sith Lord in history, Sidious is hardly the pinnacle of lightsaber technique and ability. As I recall, Skywalker was casually defeated and humiliated the first time before defeating the Dark Lord aboard Eclipse, where Leia interfered. And even after the duel ended, he still needed the combined power of his sister and unborn nephew to survive Palpatine's Force Storm.

Force-wise, Sidious was still miles upon miles ahead of him.



Because of one incident where he had the interference of an outside party? I don't see Yoda struggling with Desann or Lumiya. Or a droideka.



Ignoring the fact that both of them have improved since then and that Luke was nearly killed by her in single combat.



Or destroying a legion of droids with a gesture. No one denies that Skywalker is powerful. But the idea that he is a demi-god without peer is without merit.



As I recall, she defeated him and tortured him, prompting him to muse that her treatment of him is similar to what Vader could have done to him if his father "wanted to kill him."



I do get the idea. Luke was powerful. Duh. But the suggestion, implication, or common misconception that he's a god capable of obliterating powerful enemies without effort isn't applicable. Due to psychology, like Anakin Skywalker, his power is restrained heavily.

Originally posted by Gideon
Which means what?

While he may be the most powerful Sith Lord in history, Sidious is hardly the pinnacle of lightsaber technique and ability. As I recall, Skywalker was casually defeated and humiliated the first time before defeating the Dark Lord aboard Eclipse, where Leia interfered. And even after the duel ended, he still needed the combined power of his sister and unborn nephew to survive Palpatine's Force Storm.

Force-wise, Sidious was still miles upon miles ahead of him.



Because of one incident where he had the interference of an outside party? I don't see Yoda struggling with Desann or Lumiya. Or a droideka.



Ignoring the fact that both of them have improved since then and that Luke was nearly killed by her in single combat.



Or destroying a legion of droids with a gesture. No one denies that Skywalker is powerful. But the idea that he is a demi-god without peer is without merit.



As I recall, she defeated him and tortured him, prompting him to muse that her treatment of him is similar to what Vader could have done to him if his father "wanted to kill him."



I do get the idea. Luke was powerful. Duh. But the suggestion, implication, or common misconception that he's a god capable of obliterating powerful enemies without effort isn't applicable. Due to psychology, like Anakin Skywalker, his power is restrained heavily.

What do you mean "to survive Palpatine's force storm"? The force storm was not directed at Luke, but at the fleet. Im not arguing i am just asking if you know something about the story that i don't. If so it may come in handy in other debates.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
NJO Luke wins, shadow guards aren't all that powerful, beat them on my first try.
Gameplay has absolutely no effect on canon. According to the depictons in TFU(written versions) a Shadow Guard is one hell of an opponent, even Proxy says that Starkiller only won because he used the enviornment to his advantage. A Shadow Guard gave Starkiller some trouble, he didn't just wtf pwn it. NJO Luke is neer undefeatable, but ten competent opponents could be the death of him. NJO Luke>>Starkiller, even if three Shadow Guards~Starkiller, No way that 3+Starkillers<NJO Luke. I just can't see that in fact if Starkiller could KO two Shadow Guards I'd be shocked

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Gameplay has absolutely no effect on canon. According to the depictons in TFU(written versions) a Shadow Guard is one hell of an opponent, even Proxy says that Starkiller only won because he used the enviornment to his advantage. A Shadow Guard gave Starkiller some trouble, he didn't just wtf pwn it. NJO Luke is neer undefeatable, but ten competent opponents could be the death of him. NJO Luke>>Starkiller, even if three Shadow Guards~Starkiller, No way that 3+Starkillers<NJO Luke. I just can't see that in fact if Starkiller could KO two Shadow Guards I'd be shocked

I don't get it though: those shadow guards were just regular guys that have some force powers. How can they beat Luke?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I don't get it though: those shadow guards were just regular guys that have some force powers. How can they beat Luke? Contradiction: Having Force powers constitutes being above normal. They were quite skilled in saber combat and Force prowess. 10 of them will give Luke a run for his money.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Contradiction: Having Force powers constitutes being above normal. They were quite skilled in saber combat and Force prowess. 10 of them will give Luke a run for his money.

But Luke is a jedi, and they are above average dudes w/some force powers and combat skill.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
But Luke is a jedi, and they are above average dudes w/some force powers and combat skill.
Yeah just guys with lightsabers who shoot lightning out of their hands no big deal or anything

^Haha definitely, lol. I see that kind of thing everyday.

I wouldn't put the Shadow Guard above Slayers though. And Luke killed SEVEN of those in one battle and still had enough strength to defeat Shimrra (who was a effing beast in his own right), all after having fought through what was probably thousands of Vong warriors.

Yeah, if Luke's given use of the Force, he'll kill the guards. Just sabers though, they might... just might win.

Well if you think about it, he all the Vong he pwned in that battle he killed almost exclusively with his saber.

Would you put the Slayers above Shadow Guards in sword fighting? Or, in this case, saber fighting.

I believe that I would put Slayers above the Shadow Guards.

Yeah I would.

It was implied that the shadow guards were once jedi themselves.

I think most would agree that Luke could pwn ten average Jedi.

I wouldn't put slayers above shadow guards IMO Starkiller would have an easier time killing slayers than he did the shadow guards as long there was no outside interference as there was in Luke's fight.

Originally posted by Allankles
I wouldn't put slayers above shadow guards IMO Starkiller would have an easier time killing slayers than he did the shadow guards as long there was no outside interference as there was in Luke's fight. You do know that, on the spot, Starkiller would be checking Wikipedia as to why he can't feel the Vong in the Force.

Originally posted by Lucien A
You do know that, on the spot, Starkiller would be checking Wikipedia as to why he can't feel the Vong in the Force.

but seriously he would also have to look up what's the deal with the slayer's armor.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It was implied that the shadow guards were once jedi themselves.

It was speculated, but there is no proof.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
but seriously he would also have to look up what's the deal with the slayer's armor.

I may be wrong, but the slayers dont wear armor, their skin is their defence.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I may be wrong, but the slayers dont wear armor, their skin is their defence.

you're probably right.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
It was speculated, but there is no proof.

Still, they must have been pretty well trained in the ways of the force for it to be a speculation.

Frankly, I'm getting sick of all the Jedi popping up recently. Just how freaking many survived the war and Order 66?

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I may be wrong, but the slayers dont wear armor, their skin is their defence.

No, it's armor.

No, it's their skin, too. Early in the book, Shimrra slashes one with a saber and it's said a regular warrior would've been sliced in half.

Shaak Ti saved alot at the temple attack acording to TFU.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Shaak Ti saved alot at the temple attack acording to TFU. I know, what the hell?

Of how many Jedi did the Order consist of?

Ten thousand, I think, although I think there were something like two thousand casualties during the war.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
^This is true, I honestly think that in terms of power Luke>10 Shadow Guards, but even Luke is going to have a shitload of trouble parrying ten blasts of Force lightning, or ten saberstaffs

Yes but I thought in Inferno when he duels Caedus, doesn't he use some sort of protection bubble thing to counter his force lightning? and also in the Unifying Force, Jaina describes his mastery over the lightsaber looking like he was wielding 20 sabers at once. So why wouldn't he be able to block 10 saberstaffs?

Originally posted by Faunus
Ten thousand, I think, although I think there were something like two thousand casualties during the war.

I believe there were more than ten thousand. It is just that only ten thousand participated in the war. There were jedi who did not.

2000 died in the war? Is that including order 66? If not, then that means 1/5 of all jedi died, which is a LOT.

Also, if there are only 10000 in the entire galaxy, then why do people say "oh, Star Wars universe beats X because of the jedi"? I mean, if there are only 10000 jedi, then a few legions of the clone army could beat all of the jedi in the galaxy.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
2000 died in the war? Is that including order 66? If not, then that means 1/5 of all jedi died, which is a LOT.

Also, if there are only 10000 in the entire galaxy, then why do people say "oh, Star Wars universe beats X because of the jedi"? I mean, if there are only 10000 jedi, then a few legions of the clone army could beat all of the jedi in the galaxy.

Not quite. One jedi can be equal to an entire legion. And powerful jedi such as Yoda can be superior to entire legions.

And what is x?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
2000 died in the war? Is that including order 66? If not, then that means 1/5 of all jedi died, which is a LOT.

Also, if there are only 10000 in the entire galaxy, then why do people say "oh, Star Wars universe beats X because of the jedi"? I mean, if there are only 10000 jedi, then a few legions of the clone army could beat all of the jedi in the galaxy. There were 10,000. And no, silly goose. The 501st suffered horrible losses raiding the temple. And at the time it consisted of most Younglings, Padawans, some Knights, and Shaak Ti. Oh, and Cin Drallig. Jedi>>>>>>>>>clones.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not quite. One jedi can be equal to an entire legion. And powerful jedi such as Yoda can be superior to entire legions.

And what is x?

Probably star trek. That's the most common comparrison I've seen. Also, the clones only killed jedi because they didn't have malice in their hearts- they were just following orders, like any other day. The Jedi were also too spread out for them to help each other. As RotS says, "It was the ultimate Jedi trap."

Originally posted by kotorfan
Yes but I thought in Inferno when he duels Caedus, doesn't he use some sort of protection bubble thing to counter his force lightning?

Sort of:
Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield. The lightning never came.

Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin.


I'm not sure but I think the fact that he was in the force meld helped.

The Force-meld helps multiple Jedi coordinate themselves better; it doesn't make them more powerful, IIRC.

Originally posted by Faunus
The Force-meld helps multiple Jedi coordinate themselves better; it doesn't make them more powerful, IIRC.

Wookieepedia isn't a source, but it mentions that Jedi could "draw strength" from those within the meld and improve their abilities.

Originally posted by Faunus
The Force-meld helps multiple Jedi coordinate themselves better; it doesn't make them more powerful, IIRC.

I was going by a sentence in JvS: Battle-melds permits a group of jedi to become stronger than if each stood alone,while also enabling them to communicate with one another through the force.

I'm definitely going to need to see an actual quote, but it's a distinct possibility considering I've only read three NJO books.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I was going by a sentence in JvS: Battle-melds permits a group of jedi to become stronger than if each stood alone,while also enabling them to communicate with one another through the force.

Hahahahhahahahahaha!

At last! I have triumphed over TUF-Luke!!!!

EAT THAT FAUNUS AND LIGHTSNAKE. I shall prepare my final campaign to crush the idea that Luke is peerless once and for all! But it'll have to be tomorrow...

Originally posted by Gideon
Hahahahhahahahahaha!

At last! I have triumphed over TUF-Luke!!!!

EAT THAT FAUNUS AND LIGHTSNAKE. I shall prepare my final campaign to crush the idea that Luke is peerless once and for all! But it'll have to be tomorrow... No. If you try to chalk up that entire feat to the battle-meld, I will have to cyber-slap you into oblivion.

UR A HATUR AND HAV NO KREDIBLTY

In all seriousness, though, I think it's a very great method by which to put this into perspective. Puts to rest the idea that Skywalker could own every Force user in the mythos with one hand behind his back. Especially since his moronic nephew and a crippled cyborg critically injured him during recent duels.

No one's recently hyped him up that much.

While I agree with the notion that everyone thinks Luke can wtfpwn anybody, the fact that he's the top dog in the SW mythos comes as no surprise, and is very logical. I understand your concern Escape and I'm sure you loved LOTF for the simple fact that Luke got punked around, but I think his rise to power was poorly conceived. They had to weaken him for LOTF just to make it seem more "realistic" or whatever you want to call it, and have Jacen's power multiply exponentially.

That proves how truly ignorant you are of my opinions, DS. As I have explained to Lightsnake before, for the record, Skywalker is the only character to root for in the series bar Pellaeon, Mara Jade, and Phennir. Seeing him get thrashed around wasn't entertaining; it was annoying. But so is the idea that he is somehow miles above everyone else in the mythos; he's not. There are enemies who are smarter, better trained, and more knowledgeable in the Force. He might just be the jack of all trades, but he got punked by Lumiya. Caedus held his own against Skywalker despite Luke unleashing a sneak attack and having the advantage of raw aggression. He's not infallible. So, yes, I do wonder how Luke would objectively do against the likes of Yoda or Sidious or Ragnos.

I have no problem conceding the idea that he's the best combatant ever. But by miles? LOL. No.

Originally posted by Gideon
That proves how truly ignorant you are of my opinions, DS. As I have explained to Lightsnake before, for the record, Skywalker is the only character to root for in the series bar Pellaeon, Mara Jade, and Phennir. Seeing him get thrashed around wasn't entertaining; it was annoying. But so is the idea that he is somehow miles above everyone else in the mythos; he's not. There are enemies who are smarter, better trained, and more knowledgeable in the Force. He might just be the jack of all trades, but he got punked by Lumiya. Caedus held his own against Skywalker despite Luke unleashing a sneak attack and having the advantage of raw aggression. He's not infallible. So, yes, I do wonder how Luke would objectively do against the likes of Yoda or Sidious or Ragnos.

I have no problem conceding the idea that he's the best combatant ever. But by miles? LOL. No.

Well, I thought that you were disgusted by the fact that he was put on such a pedestal and if that were the case, you would have enjoyed having the authors put him "back to earth". My apologies if I've misconstrued your opinions. I don't think we've really even talked about it.