Dooku vs. Raskta Lsu

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Red Nemesis
That's right- I did it.


This battle does require the 3 categories, so please use them:

1. Saber
2. Force (this one will be sad)
3. All out

truejedi
My reply to this is a mirror image of my stance in the Mace vs. Kas'im debate, with dooku winning this battle because his advantage in the force has enough magnitude to trump any advanatge Raskta might be able to eek out in saber combat.

Red Nemesis
What happens in a duel where the Count (for whatever reason) does not use offensive force powers?

Also, Raskta seems to only be vulnerable to TK, not Force Lightning.

truejedi
does Raskta ever get attacked by Force Lightning? The blast from Bane came after she was already dead didn't it?

Saber combat only? I'd put her and dooku in just about a toss-up. Incidently, i'd put Kas'im just above Dooku. So that's where that all shakes out for me. (sabers onlysmile 1. Kas'im 2. Dooku 2. Raskta

I'd need more info on one or the other of them before i could pick a clear-cut winner in an all-out.

opinion (probably influenced by seeing him man-handled by Yoda twice and anakin) make me want to go with Raskta. Ironically, you realize that Johun is the only one to wound bane with a saber in that fight?

truejedi
oh, wait, forgot the figure 8 thing. But in a force only contest, Raskta wouldn't have her saber neway.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by truejedi
does Raskta ever get attacked by Force Lightning? The blast from Bane came after she was already dead didn't it?


Yes she does. At one point Bane fires lightning at Farfalla. Raskta leaps in front of him and deflects the bolts with her blades.

Anyway, if Dooku does not use Force-kinesis, I'd say Raskta wins this. It'll be a very tough fight though (and Dooku will be ticked off at the thought of losing to a dual blade wielder).

Master Crimzon
Dooku wins. He actually holds the advantage in both force ability and technically skill. Raskta can't compare.

Darth_Glentract
With just sabers. the Count is good but he's going down. Otherwise, he wins pretty easily.

Lightsnake
I sincerely doubt Raskta is above him just in technical skill. Dooku is pretty amazing.

Darth_Glentract
But to the extent that she was? I don't think he cared enough to get to that level. Things like politics were much more important to him.

Lightsnake
Dooku devoted an incredible amount of time to swordsmanship and utterly disdained the corrupt politics of Republic for a huge part of his life. His skills are described as 'legendary' after all

Darth_Glentract
Raskta was very legendary too. What I'm saying though is that Raskta was super in to just lightsabers, where Dooku didn't care as much (though he still did a lot) because things like diplomacy, and being able to pwn with the Force were more important. Honestly, I think the idea of a Jedi being so into lightsabers that they are basically retarded with the Force as stupid, cause against anyone decent in the Force she gets raped no matter how much better a swordsman.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Raskta was very legendary too. What I'm saying though is that Raskta was super in to just lightsabers,
And? Dooku had greater time to study and his proficiency appears to have been greater

didn't care as much? Dooku focused on Makashi to an incredible degree. He shunned politics for a time and had enough time to focus on his force skills and the others

Usually fights come down to sabers, especially in large battles when she has back up

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And? Dooku had greater time to study and his proficiency appears to have been greater

Appears so because of?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
didn't care as much? Dooku focused on Makashi to an incredible degree. He shunned politics for a time and had enough time to focus on his force skills and the others

Yeah it's not like he headed the CIS or anything. Or the fact that he was studying diplomacy and signed up for a Senate intern kind of thing before he even became a padawan. He was, "political idealist, not a terrorist" (Ki-Adi Mundi, ep2).

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Usually fights come down to sabers, especially in large battles when she has back up

But not against someone of Dooku's Force caliber. He'd just pwn her with the Force more easily than he did Obi-wan. Most fights we see in SW don't have that use of the Force because everyone uses Force 'bubbles' to protect themself so their isn't much point. Fighting alone, she'd be "effed in the a."

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Appears so because of?
Greater showings, for one. Context, textual backing, too



He was heading the CIS when he was eighty. He'd been a dedicated Jedi student for a massive, massive part of his long life

Probably. Of course one could make the argument she's adequate on her own against people not on Bane or Dooku's tier

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

Yeah it's not like he headed the CIS or anything. Or the fact that he was studying diplomacy and signed up for a Senate intern kind of thing before he even became a padawan. He was, "political idealist, not a terrorist" (Ki-Adi Mundi, ep2).
This referred to his political tactics, not his competency.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract


But not against someone of Dooku's Force caliber. He'd just pwn her with the Force more easily than he did Obi-wan. Most fights we see in SW don't have that use of the Force because everyone uses Force 'bubbles' to protect themself so their isn't much point. Fighting alone, she'd be "effed in the a."
She's a weapons master in a time where Jedi fought other force users. You don't think she'd be at least a little more familiar with defensive techniques in the force than Obi-Wan?

kotorfan
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

This referred to his political tactics, not his competency.


She's a weapons master in a time where Jedi fought other force users. You don't think she'd be at least a little more familiar with defensive techniques in the force than Obi-Wan?

Ya well she couldn't block Bane's force push..

Faunus
Yeah. And if she can't block Bane's Force-push, she probably sucks balls.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by kotorfan
Ya well she couldn't block Bane's force push..

Originally posted by Faunus
Yeah. And if she can't block Bane's Force-push, she probably sucks balls.

I lol'd. But seriously- Bane's FP> Dooku's FP. All we know is that she couldn't protect vs. Bane. Dooku would be a different story.

Faunus
When augmented by Worror's battle meditation and with Farfalla using all of his power to provide her with Force-support, Bane's attack still flattened her against a wall. While that speaks more to Bane's immense power than Raskta's relative weakness, it indicates clearly that she isn't a match on any level for a superior Force-user. Dooku is probably the third most powerful being alive in the PT era; he would still crush her.

kotorfan
Originally posted by Faunus
When augmented by Worror's battle meditation and with Farfalla using all of his power to provide her with Force-support, Bane's attack still flattened her against a wall. While that speaks more to Bane's immense power than Raskta's relative weakness, it indicates clearly that she isn't a match on any level for a superior Force-user. Dooku is probably the third most powerful being alive in the PT era; he would still crush her.

I thought Skywalker was more powerful..

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Greater showings, for one. Context, textual backing, too

Such as?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He was heading the CIS when he was eighty. He'd been a dedicated Jedi student for a massive, massive part of his long life

Wow okay. Thanks for skipping half of what I said. "Or the fact that he was studying diplomacy and signed up for a Senate intern kind of thing before he even became a padawan. He was, "political idealist, not a terrorist" (Ki-Adi Mundi, ep2). " Hopefully you will respond to it this time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Probably. Of course one could make the argument she's adequate on her own against people not on Bane or Dooku's tier

Well, she was described as virtually inept, so I'm not so sure.

Red Nemesis
This refers to his tactics and machinations, not his competency. Do I need to get a plane to write it in the sky for you?

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by kotorfan
I thought Skywalker was more powerful..

He is referring to Dooku's power in the force. While Anakin had more raw power, Dooku had more mastery.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This refers to his tactics and machinations, not his competency. Do I need to get a plane to write it in the sky for you?

The fact that he was known as a political idealist is there to dispel LS's claim that he didn't care about politics.

Red Nemesis

Darth_Glentract
His actual word was "shunned." The fact that he did not totally ignore it just goes to support my point that it wasn't as important to him as Raskta Lsu.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Such as?
Well the 'One of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history' who only became stronger as a Sith comes to mind. Giving Raskta her due, but looking at Dooku, who was still able to engage Mace Windu, was far better than Grievous, who bested Tholme and Sora Bulq at once...there's a lot.



I didn't ignore. Thing is, Dooku was much older than raskta and had far more time to devote. Yes, he served in politics, but he hated politics, he hated the Senate and he hated the corruption. He devoted himself heavily to mastery of the Force and the saber....with decades upon decades to hone his skills in the latter two. And that was his passion. He was legend and apparently mastered numerous forms given that he taught them to Grievous. It's obvious he dedicated himself to his abilities as much, if not more than he did his political abilities. Likely far more



She's still probably a powerful Jedi. Likely she's just not as capable with the Force in that way.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well the 'One of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history' who only became stronger as a Sith comes to mind. Giving Raskta her due, but looking at Dooku, who was still able to engage Mace Windu, was far better than Grievous, who bested Tholme and Sora Bulq at once...there's a lot.

One of the most powerful doesn't equate to crazy saber skills. His are really good, but he's not that far up because of them alone. Yoda, Mace, Dooku, ROTS Anakin, ect could take Lsu (I'll just for now on for brevity) because of her inability to defend herself from Force attacks. Other didn't go with her to do that for no reason.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I didn't ignore. Thing is, Dooku was much older than raskta and had far more time to devote. Yes, he served in politics, but he hated politics, he hated the Senate and he hated the corruption. He devoted himself heavily to mastery of the Force and the saber....with decades upon decades to hone his skills in the latter two. And that was his passion. He was legend and apparently mastered numerous forms given that he taught them to Grievous. It's obvious he dedicated himself to his abilities as much, if not more than he did his political abilities. Likely far more

Dooku didn't hate politics. He hated Republic politics, which is why he made his own. I'd say he loved politics because we know that he chose to join Jedi stuff with the Senate before he even became a Knight.

Mastery of the Force, yes. Mastery of Makashi, yes again. Mastery of all forms and practice to the same level of Kas'im or Lsu, nope.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
She's still probably a powerful Jedi. Likely she's just not as capable with the Force in that way.

Which is why she isn't that capable of a Jedi when on her own. She needed to be part of a team to effectively fight Force users.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
One of the most powerful doesn't equate to crazy saber skills. His are really good, but he's not that far up because of them alone. Yoda, Mace, Dooku, ROTS Anakin, ect could take Lsu (I'll just for now on for brevity) because of her inability to defend herself from Force attacks. Other didn't go with her to do that for no reason.

Their saber skills would give her a run for their money. Thing is, Raskta's skills and speed are things Dooku would be good against and his skills are given a lot.


It was his dose of idealism and vision for the galaxy there, however. He certainly loathed the political wranglings with the Republic which compromised most of it. The CIS was nothing more than a glorified smokescreen

Who do you think trained Grievous in them? Dooku is an absolute god of Makashi, but he's proficient in numerous other forms. Dooku is also very familiar with other forms, enough to instantly recognize Soresu, Shien, Djem So, intimate familiarity with Ataru and quite some familiarity with Juyo/Vaapad.


Pretty much. But even in saber skills, Dooku is a top tier fighter, same as her.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Their saber skills would give her a run for their money. Thing is, Raskta's skills and speed are things Dooku would be good against and his skills are given a lot.

They certainly would, but I think she's above any of them in purely saber skill, even if only by a small margin.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It was his dose of idealism and vision for the galaxy there, however. He certainly loathed the political wranglings with the Republic which compromised most of it. The CIS was nothing more than a glorified smokescreen

There is the fact that he started with the Senate at like ten years old. It definitely took up a fair portion of his time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Who do you think trained Grievous in them? Dooku is an absolute god of Makashi, but he's proficient in numerous other forms. Dooku is also very familiar with other forms, enough to instantly recognize Soresu, Shien, Djem So, intimate familiarity with Ataru and quite some familiarity with Juyo/Vaapad.

Absolute god? I'd say a bit of hyperbole there. He has knowledge of the forms, yes, but so does anyone who practiced Niman. The ability to recognize them doesn't mean he's good with them. Nor does teaching Grevious.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Pretty much. But even in saber skills, Dooku is a top tier fighter, same as her.

I'm not contesting that it'd be close, but I definitely think she'd win.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
They certainly would, but I think she's above any of them in purely saber skill, even if only by a small margin.

Than Yoda? Than Mace? Seriously, now. Raskta devoting time bordering on obsession does not make he better.


So it's a division between 'politics, Force and saber.' We know he put in a huge time to the saber.


He has knowledge enough to teach them to Grievous for Grievous to master. He's a legendary saber instructor and he knows how to combat the forms beautifully


She's showed us very little to give that indication.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Than Yoda? Than Mace? Seriously, now. Raskta devoting time bordering on obsession does not make he better.
I can't contest this, but she is a stellar swordsbeing that was able to give Bane pause while in his armor. That has to count for something.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

So it's a division between 'politics, Force and saber.' We know he put in a huge time to the saber.


He has knowledge enough to teach them to Grievous for Grievous to master. He's a legendary saber instructor and he knows how to combat the forms beautifully
I can not support any argument that attempts to marginalize Dooku's skill, which is legendary. He was a master swordsman, who happened to be a politician. To disagree is to misrepresent the Count's skill.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

She's showed us very little to give that indication.
She has been shown to contend with Bane's absurd strength, and her Jar'Kai would at least put the Count on unfamiliar terrain. She has unique advantages (cleaving through the weak Dark Jedi of her time) that give her a unique insight into how the Dark Side may be applied in a combat situation- her dueling experience will be applicable in a fight with Dooku, even if it is not in and of itself enough to tip the scales. Her chosen form (dual wield) is the antithesis of the Count, yet it is backed by a similar skill. She was able to stand alone against Darth Bane- something I'd be willing to call a challenge for Dooku.

Lsu may not be able to best the Count, especially when considering that he was "among the best of the 2500 year history of the Order." (please check the number) She will not win, but it will be a very tough fight, and by no means a guaranteed win for Dooku.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

I can't contest this, but she is a stellar swordsbeing that was able to give Bane pause while in his armor. That has to count for something.

I'm not saying she's anything below incredible, but we're placing her on par with the very, VERY best...Dooku, Yoda, Mace...the cream of the crop of the Jedi's prime

Said it better than I coul.


Now, while Dooku isn't a Jar'Kai user himself, he's familiar with it, from Grievous, Ventress, Sora Bulq...heck, Anakin...it's highly doubtful this'll give Raskta an advantage as opposed to Dooku's curved hilt

Extremely. Granted it can be argued that was largely due to the BM and Bane manuevering himself to go for Worror. Granted, Raskta has a good advantage to how a Dark Sider will fight, but Dooku's not a typical Dark Sider and has just as unique an advantage to how a Jedi will fight...and he's shown he can handle, brilliantly in fact, Jar'Kai users. Granted none of them was Raskta's par of excellence, but Dooku didn't seem troubled whatsoever.

Missed a '0' there's all. And I'll certainly agree here.

chilled monkey
Without offensive Force-kinesis, it would be a great fight and could well go either way. However I'd still put my money on Raskta.

For one thing she's much stronger and fitter. Dooku's vitality in combat is all from the Force and he notes in the RotS novel, "The dark power that served him went only so far." He'll tire out before she will.

Also, while there's no question that Dooku was a swordmaster who devoted much time to it, the fact remains that he was a political idealist, and so would have had to focus quite a bit on that as well. Raskta, by contrast, "eschewed all other fields of study" and was almost fanatically devoted to blade mastery in order to live up to her namesake. Not questioning Dooku's devotion to swordsmanship, but I'd say she was more 'driven' than him.

Plus, as noted, she stood alone against Bane. True, she had Worrer's Battle Meditation, but Bane had the orbalisks powering him up (as well as giving him near-complete invulnerability).

BTW: I'd say Raskta could probably block Force attacks from Sith of 'average' power (such as the BoD members), since Jedi learn how to counter Force-kinesis before they even start lightsabre training. Being unable to block a Force-kinesis attack from a Bane pumped up on orbalisks is no shame.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Without offensive Force-kinesis, it would be a great fight and could well go either way. However I'd still put my money on Raskta.

For one thing she's much stronger and fitter. Dooku's vitality in combat is all from the Force and he notes in the RotS novel, "The dark power that served him went only so far." He'll tire out before she will.
If he can keep up with General Grievous for ages, Raskta ain't gonna be exhausting him.

Dooku is, at LEAST, twice Raskta's age. He's had far, far more time to focus on things and didn't have a big war to distract him.


Even so, she was amped up there. Look at Dooku having stood alone against Grievous. Casually. Don't forget Bane led her around to get an easier opening to Worror

True. of course, if Dooku incorporates force power, Raskta is toast

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Than Yoda? Than Mace? Seriously, now. Raskta devoting time bordering on obsession does not make he better.

Not alone, but she's shown herself to the extent that it's definitely possible that she's better.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So it's a division between 'politics, Force and saber.' We know he put in a huge time to the saber.

And she put all her time to the saber.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He has knowledge enough to teach them to Grievous for Grievous to master. He's a legendary saber instructor and he knows how to combat the forms beautifully

She's legendary as well. She has mastered them as a whole to a higher extent. I have technically mastered the piano, in that I know how to play anything on it, but I am not as good as Mozart, because I can play anything, but I can't play it as well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
She's showed us very little to give that indication.

Quality over quantity, my friend.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Not alone, but she's shown herself to the extent that it's definitely possible that she's better.
And how would that be? Dooku's the one with the feat backing behind him



As Dooku had well over twice the time to put in..


Please find me a quote demonstrating Raskta's mastery of every form and style.

Point is, Dooku is familiar, intimately with each form. Nothing Raskta can do to take him off guard


Dooku has quality and quantity regarding him here

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Lightsnake

Please find me a quote demonstrating Raskta's mastery of every form and style.


No such quote exists...


I get it- you are pointing that out by using a leading question... tricky.

The only thing I could find was "she switched styles seamlessly" which does not guarantee mastery over all of the forms, but does indicate at least two.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Lightsnake

Please find me a quote demonstrating Raskta's mastery of every form and style.



"She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master."

"Now tasked with training apprentices in the forms of lightsabre combat."

Note "the forms." Not 'some of the forms.' All of them.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by chilled monkey
"She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master."

"Now tasked with training apprentices in the forms of lightsabre combat."

Note "the forms." Not 'some of the forms.' All of them.
This means nothing, these quotes can be applied to Cin Drallig , and he did not know jack shit about Vapaad/ Juyo, also Sora Bulq Mastered every form as well and Dooku tooled him all the same. The Forms doesn't mean that much, being basically familiar with forms to teach is one thing, but mastering all of them is another. Dooku taught GG, the most deadly Jedi Killer in History, and he educated him so well in the forms that he could duel (in sabers at least) on par will the Six Greater Sworbeings( outdueled Ti, dueled on par with Kenobi and Mace.) If Dooku hadn't been well versed in the forms himself, how did he teach someone like GG, so quickly and effectively. big grin Point is Dooku wins hands down Happy Dance

Darth_Glentract
Mizukage, if you honestly think Dooku owns her, you don't know shit.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Mizukage, if you honestly think Dooku owns her, you don't know shit.

Stuff like this is why TrueJedi is leaving- knock it off. That didn't help your argument at all- so why would you say it?

Gideon
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Stuff like this is why TrueJedi is leaving- knock it off. That didn't help your argument at all- so why would you say it?

Comments like these have existed since time immemorial. With all due respect to Truejedi (and I do have great respect for pacifists), the world is full of pricks with inflated egos who make comments like Glentract's. If he's in full retreat mode because of it, that's his choice, but don't attempt to use that as a means of fostering change. If he's going to flee at the first sign of adversity, he's going to be defeated in all aspects of life.

My suggestion would be one of the following:

a.) Annihilate Glentract with a witty response. It's easier than some would think.

b.) Put him on ignore.

c.) Ask "was this necessary?"

But making an entire point out of it and throwing out Truejedi's retirement as the means by which to compel Glentract to cease his ways isn't very effective.

Allankles
Dooku is superior in all areas.

Faunus
Originally posted by Gideon
If he's going to flee at the first sign of adversity, he's going to be defeated in all aspects of life.You're the one who was contemplating "retiring" because you thought people were going out of there way to disagree with you.

Truejedi thinks this stuff is juvenile; so be it.

Darth_Glentract
Seriously, you're giving me crap Gideon? Mizukage makes unsupported claims like that all the time. He completely dropped the multiple"blank vs. Vong" arguments in the middle. If anyone is failing to contribute, it's him.

Gideon
Originally posted by Faunus
You're the one who was contemplating "retiring" because you thought people were going out of there way to disagree with you.

No, I'm the one who was frustrated with half a dozen members (relative neophytes) from this forum going well out of their way to oppose me and then offer nothing in terms of logic -- Truejedi is a great example of this himself. He just disagrees "because it doesn't seem right." That's not good enough.

With respect, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. But you and I have been through this merry-go-round before. If you can't be bothered to understand that which you're commenting on, don't comment at all.



That's his choice. In fact, I didn't say a thing to Truejedi. I simply asked Red Nemesis not to make a tremendous deal out of it.

By the way, you have a long-standing argument of ours to get to via private messaging. Rather than waste time providing commentary of that which you are ignorant, perhaps you could get around to that?

And Glentract, I just threw a sarcastic jab in your direction. Nothing ill intended behind it. We just all pick on each other around here.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Seriously, you're giving me crap Gideon? Mizukage makes unsupported claims like that all the time. He completely dropped the multiple"blank vs. Vong" arguments in the middle. If anyone is failing to contribute, it's him.
"Things that bother you never bother me...Living in the sunlight loving in the moonlight having a wonderful time." If you haven't noticed already I exaggerate a hella lot: here is the Wookiepedia's quote on Raskta Lsu.
"As the esteemed Weapon Master of the Jedi Order, Raskta Lsu's greatest talents were in lightsaber combat. Her Echani ideals of perfection through mastery of one's physical self were incorporated into her Jedi training, and she eventually became the greatest duelist of her time. A master of all forms of lightsaber combat, Lsu's preferred style was Jar'Kai, one she implemented with two blue blades. Lsu was so proficient in battle with her blades, that she was able to switch between dueling styles seamlessly; a tactic that often confused her opponents. She was able to duel a single adversary with several partners, playing off of their unique styles to maximize the effectiveness of her own. Lsu was also adept with the double-bladed variant as well, which she trained her Padawan, Sarro Xaj, in the use of. She was even familiar with the hooked-handle lightsaber, to the point of being able to immediately recognize it while in the thick of combat. In battle against a user of said weapon, Lsu was able to modify her own technique to compensate for the slight variance that resulted from the curved-hilt's usage.

In matters of the Force, however, Raskta Lsu was virtually inept. She had exchanged all study in the ways of the Force for exclusive devotion to training with lightsabers. Though, her melee skills mostly compensated for her Force-talent impotence. In battle, Lsu had to be shielded by others while she cut down her foes. "
Do you see she had to beshielded by others in the force. She will most certainly be tooled in Force and All Out.
Now on to Sabers:
1. She may be able to tell a curved hilt in the middle of battle, Dooku managed to Identify if General Grievous held his lightsaber too lightly or tightly in the midst of battle
2. Jar' Kai, Dooku has tooled and trained several of the most renowned Jar' Kai users in the PT era GG, Ventress, and Sora Bulq. I can argue that Jar' Kai is weak against the Count considering every time that he has encountered it he has emerged victorious, quite handily at that. Do you have evidence that points to Lsu being above General "tool Five Jedi with two Sabers" Grievous, let alone four saber grievous.
3. She is at the top of the Russan era: So, Dooku was at the top of a superior era. The PT is the Golden age of the Order. According to many sources #2 he outsparred Windu, he was second only to Yoda in terms of Saber skills. This is a superior era as well.
4. Perhaps you may bring up Anakin's victory over the Count, he was toying with him for neerly the entire duel, in fact only a few seconds before when he got his hands diced off he had a big ole grin on his face. The Anakin suprised the good Count and outmanuevered him. Until the last few seconds he was in control, hell he was in control even with Kenobi in the fight. That is the Count's only
5. I respect you Glentract, but if you honestly believe that Dooku won't win this one I'll lose a hell of respect.

Faunus
Originally posted by Gideon
With respect, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. But you and I have been through this merry-go-round before. If you can't be bothered to understand that which you're commenting on, don't comment at all.Stop spazzing out. You said truejedi shouldn't flee at the first sight of adversity. What you were "frustrated" by was a form of adversity. Simple?

I'm not being antagonistic or anything, just pointing out that you shouldn't be criticizing truejedi for getting tired of this place for one reason or another. Calm down.

I haven't forgotten.

Gideon
Originally posted by Faunus
Stop spazzing out.

I'm not spazzing. As I mentioned to Glentract in the same diatribe, I'm exercising my right to humiliate and pick on my peers inferiors in a sarcastic (though friendly) manner.



Not really, no. The difference is so simple that I'm actually surprised, Faunus. I said that Truejedi shouldn't flee at the first sign of adversity. My frustration was born from several direct incidents from multiple individuals.



And there is a tremendous difference. But what I said to Red Nemesis, is that such comments have existed since time immemorial and will no doubt continue to appear on these forums. Truejedi's departure isn't going to change that.



You understandably fear the intellectual destruction I shall lay upon you. That you are aware of your inferiority is a sign of a fully functioning common sense. But you should either drop it completely or hurry up and get it done.

Faunus
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not spazzing. As I mentioned to Glentract in the same diatribe, I'm exercising my right to humiliate and pick on my peers inferiors in a sarcastic (though friendly) manner.

Not really, no. The difference is so simple that I'm actually surprised, Faunus. I said that Truejedi shouldn't flee at the first sign of adversity. My frustration was born from several direct incidents from multiple individuals.

And there is a tremendous difference. But what I said to Red Nemesis, is that such comments have existed since time immemorial and will no doubt continue to appear on these forums. Truejedi's departure isn't going to change that.In other words, I win.

No. I shall take my sweet time and blindside you with my power.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"Things that bother you never bother me...Living in the sunlight loving in the moonlight having a wonderful time." If you haven't noticed already I exaggerate a hella lot: here is the Wookiepedia's quote on Raskta Lsu.
Wookieepedia isn't a source. Also, what was the first quotation from/regarding? I can't connect it to the subject, no matter how hard I try.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Now on to Sabers:
1. She may be able to tell a curved hilt in the middle of battle, Dooku managed to Identify if General Grievous held his lightsaber too lightly or tightly in the midst of battle
Her ID of the saber also came in the midst of battle- this isn't a factor in either direction.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

2. Jar' Kai, Dooku has tooled and trained several of the most renowned Jar' Kai users in the PT era GG, Ventress, and Sora Bulq. I can argue that Jar' Kai is weak against the Count considering every time that he has encountered it he has emerged victorious, quite handily at that. Do you have evidence that points to Lsu being above General "tool Five Jedi with two Sabers" Grievous, let alone four saber grievous.
A>B>C logic won't fly here. We aren't comparing her to General Grievous, we're pitting her against the Count. They aren't the same thing at all. Dooku's "tooling" of Ventress was a matter of training- he didn't teach her everything he knew, specifically so that he would have an edge over her.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

3. She is at the top of the Russan era: So, Dooku was at the top of a superior era. The PT is the Golden age of the Order. According to many sources #2 he out sparred Windu, he was second only to Yoda in terms of Saber skills. This is a superior era as well.
We know that Raskta > Ruusan era. We know that Dooku > PT era. Also, the PT era > Ruusan period. We can prove that Dooku > PT > Ruusan. We are not allowed by the laws of logic to make a comparison between Dooku and Raskta, at least not with the information given in the "prime of the Jedi" quote.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

4. Perhaps you may bring up Anakin's victory over the Count, he was toying with him for nearly the entire duel, in fact only a few seconds before when he got his hands diced off he had a big ole grin on his face. The Anakin surprised the good Count and outmaneuvered him. Until the last few seconds he was in control, hell he was in control even with Kenobi in the fight. That is the Count's only
You stop mid-sentence, so I'm not sure what your point is. You make an excellent one for how Dooku got overpowered by Anakin, but I don't think that helps your case. Also- the novelization has him panicking while Kenobi is still in the fray, which caused the Force attack. He couldn't take them both at once, and he couldn't take Anakin alone. This isn't directly relevant to our discussion, but I think that it needed to be cleared up.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

5. I respect you Glentract, but if you honestly believe that Dooku won't win this one I'll lose a hell of respect.
You haven't earned my respect yet, but I'm sure that you have the capability to do so. Give a well reasoned, thought out, sourced (not wookieepedia) response and I might respond to it. Oh, and you may as well use spell check- it's not like it takes very long.

Mizukage Yoda
Wookiepedia is a source as long as the documents are not opinionated, and sourced. I have no interest in Bane's era, nor do I have the time to read such novels on it to win some silly clash with you, as a result my sources are limited, one of the disadvantatges of going to an elite school I suppose. Whatever, my point is her use of Jar'Kai will not help her prevail in a duel with Dooku. Who has she bested in combat? She nearly was killed by a simple Force push by Bane. Dooku will ragdoll her with the Force, her shieldings are no where near as good as Kenobi's(although Kenobi is her inferior with the blade) and yet he was tooled by the count. As I said before in a duel the Count is well versed in all forms of Saber combat, and has tooled Sora Bulq, the master of Vappad, and Jar' Kai. Lsu and Faralla could not best Bane WITH Battle Meditation, without it they were quickly tooled. What makes you think that a person of Dooku's calibur could be bested by Lsu, she has never won a duel except for nameless sith she killed during the seventh battle of Russan. Provide a quote that can even brush upon Dooku being; "The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure." Master Yoda.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wookiepedia is a source as long as the documents are not opinionated, and sourced. I have no interest in Bane's era, nor do I have the time to read such novels on it to win some silly clash with you, as a result my sources are limited, one of the disadvantatges of going to an elite school I suppose.
I don't understand. Are you saying that you don't want to argue? If so, just concede the point like a mature individual and lets move on. Wookieepedia is a good guide for the gist of a character's power or history, but to base an argument in wookieepedia is risky. How do you know that all of the sources are valid if you don't check them out yourself?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Whatever, my point is her use of Jar'Kai will not help her prevail in a duel with Dooku. Who has she bested in combat? She nearly was killed by a simple Force push by Bane.
This is the very same Bane who could liquidize bone, and who

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Dooku will ragdoll her with the Force, her shieldings are no where near as good as Kenobi's(although Kenobi is her inferior with the blade) and yet he was tooled by the count.
Do you have any proof that Kenobi's force shielding is anywhere near proficient? Jedi didn't need force protection during the PT because they weren't in combat with sith/dark side practitioners on a regular basis. Raskta would be far more familiar and therefore proficient with the technique than Kenobi was.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

As I said before in a duel the Count is well versed in all forms of Saber combat, and has tooled Sora Bulq, the master of Vappad, and Jar' Kai. Lsu and Faralla could not best Bane WITH Battle Meditation, without it they were quickly tooled.
Losing to Bane is not a sign of weakness at all. The count is good, yes, but Raskta's skill was considerable. There will be no stomp, curb or otherwise, in a duel between her and Tyrranus.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

What makes you think that a person of Dooku's calibur could be bested by Lsu, she has never won a duel except for nameless sith she killed during the seventh battle of Russan.
She gave one hell of a fight to Darth Bane, even while he still had his orbalisk armor. Dooku is on the top tier, but she was the best in a militaristic age- she turned herself into a weapon. She might not be able to beat him more than 4/10 times, but the fight would be close, and the two are virtually even.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Provide a quote that can even brush upon Dooku being; "The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure." Master Yoda.
OK, so Dooku got some praise from his former master. Because Yoda wouldn't be biased at all, even though he taught him for Dooku's whole life, and even in the RotS novelization still had hope to redeem him. Yoda isn't impartial here. Besides, Living Weapon is much more BA than "learned in the ways of the force."

Darth_Glentract
And there is the continuing fact that greatness doesn't automatically translate into combat prowess.

Mizukage Yoda
No, I'm saying I do not have the time, or resources to go to Barnes and Nobles, and buy the book for a single quote, so I'll have to use Wookiepedia.

Not really, Yoda has trained "thousands" of Jedi into Knighthood according to the visual guides, if anything he is a greater judge than any. I mean Ki-Adi Mundi, Rahm Kota, and Obi-Wan were all trained by Yoda at some point, and yet you don't hear Yoda sucking up to them. Dooku is referred to as one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year History, and an even more powerful Sith.

You honestly can tell me the count will not stomp her in a Force only duel. Raskta's skill was considerable, but Dooku's was exceptional, he held a peerless of Makashi, a mastery of all seven forms of lightsaber combat, a vast knowledge of the Dark Side and all of its arts.

I'm guessing you ended that sentence by accident. Bane is powerful, there is no doubt about that. Dooku, has illustrated the ability to see flaws in the lightsaber form of GG without a problem, he managed just by dueling him, able to tell how the General held his saber. Dooku honed his skills to a fine point for neerly a century, and has trained under the tutelage of the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, and the Dark Lord of the Sith. Dooku dispatches of Sora Bulq with ease, and this is one of the three users of Vappad in the Galaxy, who had also mastered every other form. Even with Tholme's help he still was massacred.

Yes, Kenobi look at ROTS, when Obi-Wan is flung against DURASTEEL wall, with the force that could have killed any normal human beingthen crushed by a god knows how heavy DURASTEELwalkway, and comes out without any thing broken or injured its pretty obvious that he has some degree of Force Shielding stick out tongue

With the assistance of two other formidable Jedi, one was able to redirect Bane's lightning, the other was a Master who was on the Council and survived Ruusan, hell I can say Fisto put up one hell of a fight too, but he still died smokin'

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