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Apprentice would tool him with the force...but Anakin is a better duelist.

Co-signed. Now let's all ignore this and not turn into a quagmire.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Co-signed. Now let's all ignore this and not turn into a quagmire.

DING DING DING!!! YOU SAID THE MAGIC WORD!!!

I think that was what I said to start off the 40 page politics discussion that was so much fun.

Starkiller easily.

Why does everyone think:

mace is good at sabers but bad at force (BS)
yoda is good at force but bad at sabers ( )
anakin is good at sabers but bad at force (not really)
vader is good at force but bad at sabers (really?)
njo luke rocks at everything
sidious is good at force and bad at sabers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gnjyp0nSqc

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Starkiller easily.

Why does everyone think:

mace is good at sabers but bad at force (BS)


Bad isn't the word I would use to describe his force power.


I doubt many people think that



Anakin probably has the most raw power in the force then anyone in star wars but he has hardly mastered it.


Vader isn't bad in saber combat (I believe someone has a quote that says he either mastered all forms save for Vapaad or has a lot of knowledge on them) but his mobility would become a factor vs the faster characters


That is up for debate depending on what time in the NJO series but I don't know enough about NJO Luke and prior to it to answer how powerful he is.


Sidious is beast at both as is Yoda.

What I'm trying to say is that they always say "ROTS Anakin wins in sabers but loses in force"

Because his Force abilities are overshadowed by his saber skill.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What I'm trying to say is that they always say "ROTS Anakin wins in sabers but loses in force"
.......Because his opponents are more powerful then Anakin, due to his lack of mastery of the force.

He is amazing at sabers, and average with the force. With the exception of the metaphysical aspect of Vaapad, he has few force showings other than TK- the manipulation of a landslide and Force Crushing Grievous. He isn't superb with the force, but he certainly is powerful.

A landslide of rock isn't "impressive"? That's possibly hundreds of tons.

Of fun.

Your random ad-ons are amusing and golden.

I'm working towards platinum.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He is amazing at sabers, and average with the force. With the exception of the metaphysical aspect of Vaapad, he has few force showings other than TK- the manipulation of a landslide and Force Crushing Grievous. He isn't superb with the force, but he certainly is powerful.

Mace tore down entire armies with the force, crushed Grievous with ease(where most jedi failed to harm him with the force), ride a landslide of over a hundred ton of rock. He was also the only known jedi to truly master vapaad, and channel his inner darkness into a weapon of light, or redirect sith lightning with his saber.

I say he is pretty up there. He is certainly far above average.

Was the army killing feat done with the Force? I thought it was just his ridiculous speed- not a force attack. I could be wrong though- it wouldn't be the first time.



The saber duel was hardly easy, and I don't know of any other Jedi attacking the General with the Force at all. Proof please? Just to see where the idea came from- I do believe you.


I gave vaapad as a feat, but it was really a philisophical one, rather than Force related one. All he did with Vaapad was reconcile his love of fighting with the light side of the Force- hardly an example of strength.


This was a function of vaapad- not a showing of strength. Heck, it even says in the novel that Mace wasn't strong enough to continue- had Palpatine continued the onslaught (even while holding back) Mace would have died.

I don't want to say that he's weak, but to put him on a level with Yoda, Sidious, Dooku or other real greats seems irresponsible.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Was the army killing feat done with the Force? I thought it was just his ridiculous speed- not a force attack. I could be wrong though- it wouldn't be the first time.

Yes Force amplified blows and speed, not to mention a ridiculous Force wave.

Not talking about the Saber duel, this is in CW chapter 20, Grievous is loading the chancellor into his shuttle, Mace's LAAT arrives, it gets shot down, Mace Jumps out, lands next to Grievous. Grievous immediately draws four blades, Mace implodes the General's chest, and their goes uber CW Grievous, hello lame ROTS Grievous. And in Obsession he smashed Grievous with a STAP. THe General also has dodged Force Pushes on multiple occassions in the CW, and quite casually at that.


I can agree with that in the PT those three are nigh peerless, but we should at least admit he's damn close.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He is amazing at sabers, and average with the force. He is quite far above average. Second only to Yoda in Force Mastery in the PT Order.

I think it's a sterotype, and Yoda being bad at sabers? Some say that Anakin could beat him in that

Anakin being able to beat in you in sabers doesn't make you a bad duelist. In fact, Anakin tooled one of the finest swordsman in history with little effort (Dooku).

Though, I do believe that within the PT, Yoda, Sidious, Mace, and to some extent Obi-wan are capable of defeating Anakin in a duel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin being able to beat in you in sabers doesn't make you a bad duelist. In fact, Anakin tooled one of the finest swordsman in history with little effort (Dooku).

Though, I do believe that within the PT, Yoda, Sidious, Mace, and to some extent Obi-wan are capable of defeating Anakin in a duel.

He and Obi Wan got pwned for a while and Dooku was able to easily seperate the two. Anakin won, but not "easily"

Yoda, Sidious and Mace could easily, and Obi Wan already beat him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

Anakin won easily against Dooku. Read the novel, he was "in teh Z0ne."

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


I don't want to say that he's weak, but to put him on a level with Yoda, Sidious, Dooku or other real greats seems irresponsible.

What has Dooku ever done to put him above Mace with the force? Mae has more nd better feats, from what I've seen.

That is what i am wondering. Why do people think Dooku is superior to Mace in the force?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That is what i am wondering. Why do people think Dooku is superior to Mace in the force?

Because Dooku can launch lightning, and people are like "whoo... Mace never did anything like that"....

But I think that Mace could easily beat Dooku if he could beat Sidious.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
What has Dooku ever done to put him above Mace with the force? Mae has more nd better feats, from what I've seen.

Urm how about putting Ventress to the floor by merely lifting a finger, whilst Ventress escaped from Mace without too much difficulty in "Schism". The ONLY other Jedi to dominate Ventress SOOOOO Badly is Yoda.

also how about disposing of ROTS Obi1 with a flick of his wrist.
Force tossing The Chosen One on his rear twice in the Clone Wars movie.

and having a Force fight with Yoda, even deflecting one of Yodas attacks, and Yoda didnt actually defeat him in the Force fight(not that he culdnt). But It was only the Saber fight in which Yoda dominated Dooku.

Mace has no such feats agaisnt other Powerful Force users like those feats of Dookus.

and if your talking about Maces TK feats beating Dookus... well in that case Mace's TK feats also beat PT Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm how about putting Ventress to the floor by merely lifting a finger, whilst Ventress escaped from Mace without too much difficulty in "Schism". The ONLY other Jedi to dominate Ventress SOOOOO Badly is Yoda.

also how about disposing of ROTS Obi1 with a flick of his wrist.
Force tossing The Chosen One on his rear twice in the Clone Wars movie.

and having a Force fight with Yoda, even deflecting one of Yodas attacks, and Yoda didnt actually defeat him in the Force fight(not that he culdnt). But It was only the Saber fight in which Yoda dominated Dooku.

Mace has no such feats agaisnt other Powerful Force users like those feats of Dookus.

and if your talking about Maces TK feats beating Dookus... well in that case Mace's TK feats also beat PT Sidious.

Mace blocked Sidious's force lightning.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Mace blocked Sidious's force lightning.

Mace used a unique style that was ideal for the fight against the sith lord- his reflection of the lightning was a function of his saber style.

Upon re-reading your post, I have found 2 more problems: Mace was unable to block the lightning- the novel has him "choking on ozone" without any strength left to fight against his blade, and that was when Palpatine wasn't using his full power.

Also, Kenobi was able to block (your words- not mine) Dooku's force lightning. Blocking lightning isn't a force feat unless you use your hands like Yoda, Kota or Starkiller. Raskta Lsu was able to catch Bane's lightning but it does not show her Force strength.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Mace used a unique style that was ideal for the fight against the sith lord- his reflection of the lightning was a function of his saber style.



No it wasn't.

I wasn't aware AotC Obi-Wan was a Vapaad Master.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
No it wasn't.

I wasn't aware AotC Obi-Wan was a Vapaad Master.

AotC Kenobi didn't reflect the lightning. He caught it just like every other instance of Lightning vs. Saber we've seen. ONLY Mace Windu has ever sent force lightning back at its source with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That is what i am wondering. Why do people think Dooku is superior to Mace in the force?
Tooling of Kenobi, Bulq, Ventress, Grievous, and Anakin with the Force, the Count is nigh peerless with the Force in the PT era sans Sidious and Yoda. And no Mace would not 'easily' beat someone like Dooku. Dooku has in fact defeated Mace in sabers before, many argue: "well Mace hadn't mastered Vappad yet and became far more powerful after TPM" my answer to that is what do you think the good Count was doing then, sipping tea? No he was under the tutelage of the greatest Sith Lord in history; his imperial majesty Palpatine. He was recieving the best training the Dark Lords could offer. Mace has never demonstrated the ability to tool another Force user as Dooku has on multiple occasions. He is quite powerful, but Dooku is simply better

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
AotC Kenobi didn't reflect the lightning. He caught it just like every other instance of Lightning vs. Saber we've seen. ONLY Mace Windu has ever sent force lightning back at its source with a lightsaber.

I misread your post.

I'm sorry babe.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Tooling of Kenobi, Bulq, Ventress, Grievous, and Anakin with the Force, the Count is nigh peerless with the Force in the PT era sans Sidious and Yoda.
Other people that could defeat him with the force include Kar Vastor and Gethzerion.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And no Mace would not 'easily' beat someone like Dooku. Dooku has in fact defeated Mace in sabers before, many argue: "well Mace hadn't mastered Vappad yet and became far more powerful after TPM" my answer to that is what do you think the good Count was doing then, sipping tea?
When using Vaapad in training sessions, the metaphysical aspects: fueling the fight with love of combat- let alone the metaphysical "superconducting loop" effect- would not come into play. Mace is at his strongest when fighting against the dark side. Darth Tyrranus is of the Dark Side. Mace gets a boost that he didn't have before.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

No he was under the tutelage of the greatest Sith Lord in history; his imperial majesty Palpatine. He was recieving the best training the Dark Lords could offer.
Not true. Darth Maul got the best training the dark lords could offer. Dooku already had been trained in technique- he was already a skilled swordsman and force practicioner. Dooku's "tutelage" under Sidious consisted mainly of learning to tap the Dark Side. Indeed, his thoughts in DR (YDR) suggest that he hadn't had much Sith force knowledge imparted to him at all.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Mace has never demonstrated the ability to tool another Force user as Dooku has on multiple occasions. He is quite powerful, but Dooku is simply better
He beat Kar by using the Force. He tooled grievous twice with the force. He's good.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Tooling of Kenobi, Bulq, Ventress, Grievous, and Anakin with the Force, the Count is nigh peerless with the Force in the PT era sans Sidious and Yoda. And no Mace would not 'easily' beat someone like Dooku. Dooku has in fact defeated Mace in sabers before, many argue: "well Mace hadn't mastered Vappad yet and became far more powerful after TPM" my answer to that is what do you think the good Count was doing then, sipping tea? No he was under the tutelage of the greatest Sith Lord in history; his imperial majesty Palpatine. He was recieving the best training the Dark Lords could offer. Mace has never demonstrated the ability to tool another Force user as Dooku has on multiple occasions. He is quite powerful, but Dooku is simply better

I guess Qui Gon is also better than Windu.

As Red said, Mace easlily crushed Grievous with the force. Not too many jedi can claim that accoplishment. Not even Obi Wan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Tooling of Kenobi, Bulq, Ventress, Grievous, and Anakin with the Force, the Count is nigh peerless with the Force in the PT era sans Sidious and Yoda. And no Mace would not 'easily' beat someone like Dooku. Dooku has in fact defeated Mace in sabers before, many argue: "well Mace hadn't mastered Vappad yet and became far more powerful after TPM" my answer to that is what do you think the good Count was doing then, sipping tea? No he was under the tutelage of the greatest Sith Lord in history; his imperial majesty Palpatine. He was recieving the best training the Dark Lords could offer. Mace has never demonstrated the ability to tool another Force user as Dooku has on multiple occasions. He is quite powerful, but Dooku is simply better I'm not arguing, but Mace doesn't have as many opportunities to "tool" someone with the Force. The Count has such a much larger roster to pick from. 10,000 Jedi to be exact. Mace has... like 5? One of which is Palps, the other his peer.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm how about putting Ventress to the floor by merely lifting a finger, whilst Ventress escaped from Mace without too much difficulty in "Schism". The ONLY other Jedi to dominate Ventress SOOOOO Badly is Yoda.

also how about disposing of ROTS Obi1 with a flick of his wrist.
Force tossing The Chosen One on his rear twice in the Clone Wars movie.

and having a Force fight with Yoda, even deflecting one of Yodas attacks, and Yoda didnt actually defeat him in the Force fight(not that he culdnt). But It was only the Saber fight in which Yoda dominated Dooku.

Mace has no such feats agaisnt other Powerful Force users like those feats of Dookus.

and if your talking about Maces TK feats beating Dookus... well in that case Mace's TK feats also beat PT Sidious.

1) Ventress had no way to escape. Dooku slambed her into the wall (i believe). Also i don't believe Ventress expected Dooku to attack her. Dooku hinted that Sidious showed him the same treatment that Dooku showed Ventress. If so would that make Sidious far above Yoda?

2) Mace never fought Obi Wan or Anakin. He did easily take Grievous out with the force. The same Grievous that gave Obi Wan an extremely hard fight... The same Grievous that killed numerous of other jedi, including some masters. Grievous also dodged force attacks from other jedi masters.

3) Yoda never threw any force attacks at Dooku, so what force attack did Dooku deflect? Yoda anly stood there blocking or redirecting everything Dooku threw at him.

4) He defeated Kar Vastor with the force.

5) Do you remember Sidious ripping senate pods from their durasteel restraints, and lifting them high above his head then throwing them at Yoda with ease. He did all this while levitating himself in mid-air, along with the pod he was standing on.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
1) Ventress had no way to escape. Dooku slambed her into the wall (i believe). Also i don't believe Ventress expected Dooku to attack her. Dooku hinted that Sidious showed him the same treatment that Dooku showed Ventress. If so would that make Sidious far above Yoda?

2) Mace never fought Obi Wan or Anakin. He did easily take Grievous out with the force. The same Grievous that gave Obi Wan an extremely hard fight... The same Grievous that killed numerous of other jedi, including some masters. Grievous also dodged force attacks from other jedi masters.

3) Yoda never threw any force attacks at Dooku, so what force attack did Dooku deflect? Yoda anly stood there blocking or redirecting everything Dooku threw at him.

4) He defeated Kar Vastor with the force.

5) Do you remember Sidious ripping senate pods from their durasteel restraints, and lifting them high above his head then throwing them at Yoda with ease. He did all this while levitating himself in mid-air, along with the pod he was standing on. So he was levitating himself, and the pod he was "standing" on? That was redundent of him, no?

Originally posted by Lucien A
So he was levitating himself, and the pod he was "standing" on? That was redundent of him, no?

I couldn't think of the right way to word it. I have a hard time at that sometimes.

um guys, i think he means: http://www.brentbuckman.com/images/e_logo_apprentice.jpg

That's it Knightfa11, you've pissed me off for the last time. You're fired.



Ah, crap, now I owe Donald Trump $50.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
4) He defeated Kar Vastor with the force.


Could you be more specific, I am aware that Mace broke his force grip but when he did defeat Vastor at the end of the book Vastor didn't tryio block the vibroshield with the force so I'm not sure how much of a plus this can be for Mace.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
1) Ventress had no way to escape. Dooku slambed her into the wall (i believe). Also i don't believe Ventress expected Dooku to attack her. Dooku hinted that Sidious showed him the same treatment that Dooku showed Ventress. If so would that make Sidious far above Yoda?

it was in Dark Rendesvouz.. and she was simply paralyazed, and in extreme pain. so theres no way she could have fought back or escaped even if she wanted to. and this was all by simply lifting a finger!

Mace has no such Force feat anywhere. Ventress escaped from him in Schism.. he was only dominating her in Sabers. If he could have paralyzed her with the Force the way Dooku or Yoda have done, then surely he would have to stop her escaping. Therfore Mace has not showed himself to be in Dookus league with the Force. Simple as.

Not to mention Dooku also paralyzed Obi1 mid saber fight. Is there any evidence anywhere that Mace could take a Jedi/Force User as powerful as Obi1 THAT EASILY with the Force?? Nope!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
2) Mace never fought Obi Wan or Anakin. He did easily take Grievous out with the force. The same Grievous that gave Obi Wan an extremely hard fight... The same Grievous that killed numerous of other jedi, including some masters. Grievous also dodged force attacks from other jedi masters.?

Considering Dookuy dominated GG in their sparring sessions via sabers and via the force, your point proves absolutely nothing.
Not to mention Obi finished his Saber fight with GG via a powerful Force Push after which GG was disarmed and running away from Obi1.
Oh and lets no forget the obvious, which is that GG has no defence against Force attacks, apart from trying to dodge them.
So again Mace has none of the impressive feats against other FORCE USERS that Dooku has. It seems Mace only has impressive feats against those who can not use the Force.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
3) Yoda never threw any force attacks at Dooku, so what force attack did Dooku deflect? Yoda anly stood there blocking or redirecting everything Dooku threw at him.

when Yoda shot back Dooku's lightning at Dooku you honestly dnt think Yoda put his own power into that shot???
And whatever Yodas tactic was in that fight, it doesnt change the fact that he had a Force Fight with Dooku and didnt beat Dooku down. How many other people do you think can even Compete with Yoda in a Force fight??? Mace certainly hasnt proven he can.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
4) He defeated Kar Vastor with the force..

no he didnt. In fact it was Vastor who was tossing Mace around using the Force. That fight is the worst example you could have given prove Maces ability in the Force.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
5) Do you remember Sidious ripping senate pods from their durasteel restraints, and lifting them high above his head then throwing them at Yoda with ease. He did all this while levitating himself in mid-air, along with the pod he was standing on.

Ok Senate pods? and Dooku chucks a massive pillar at Obi1 and Anakin in AOTC, and a massive landing platform at Obi1 in ROTS.

However none Dookus or Sidious's TK Force feats compares to Mace's TK in the CW cartoon, where his massive Force waves take out an entire Driod armada. which is a blatantly exagerated feat of course as Mace wasnt able to replicate this in AOTC.. but either way if your going to use that argument then Mace also beats PT Sidious in TK feats.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
it was in Dark Rendesvouz.. and she was simply paralyazed, and in extreme pain. so theres no way she could have fought back or escaped even if she wanted to. and this was all by simply lifting a finger!

Mace has no such Force feat anywhere. Ventress escaped from him in Schism.. he was only dominating her in Sabers. If he could have paralyzed her with the Force the way Dooku or Yoda have done, then surely he would have to stop her escaping. Therfore Mace has not showed himself to be in Dookus league with the Force. Simple as.

Not to mention Dooku also paralyzed Obi1 mid saber fight. Is there any evidence anywhere that Mace could take a Jedi/Force User as powerful as Obi1 THAT EASILY with the Force?? Nope!



Considering Dookuy dominated GG in their sparring sessions via sabers and via the force, your point proves absolutely nothing.
Not to mention Obi finished his Saber fight with GG via a powerful Force Push after which GG was disarmed and running away from Obi1.
Oh and lets no forget the obvious, which is that GG has no defence against Force attacks, apart from trying to dodge them.
So again Mace has none of the impressive feats against other FORCE USERS that Dooku has. It seems Mace only has impressive feats against those who can not use the Force.



when Yoda shot back Dooku's lightning at Dooku you honestly dnt think Yoda put his own power into that shot???
And whatever Yodas tactic was in that fight, it doesnt change the fact that he had a Force Fight with Dooku and didnt beat Dooku down. How many other people do you think can even Compete with Yoda in a Force fight??? Mace certainly hasnt proven he can.



no he didnt. In fact it was Vastor who was tossing Mace around using the Force. That fight is the worst example you could have given prove Maces ability in the Force.



Ok Senate pods? and Dooku chucks a massive pillar at Obi1 and Anakin in AOTC, and a massive landing platform at Obi1 in ROTS.

However none Dookus or Sidious's TK Force feats compares to Mace's TK in the CW cartoon, where his massive Force waves take out an entire Driod armada. which is a blatantly exagerated feat of course as Mace wasnt able to replicate this in AOTC.. but either way if your going to use that argument then Mace also beats PT Sidious in TK feats.

Your arguement is kinda like saying Obi Wan is stronger than Marka Ragnos, since we never see Ragnos fight anyone powerful. Most of Windu's enemies at that time were battle droids. How many force users are there on the CIS side? How many force users are on the republic's side? Of course Dooku is most likely going to face more force users. Dooku has beaten more force users than Yoda or Sidious has at that time. Does that make him superior to them? Dooku also hinted that Sidious tooled him with the force, the same way Dooku tooled Ventress with the force. So i guess that would mean Sidious is far above Yoda.

And no i do not believe Yoda put any power into the lightning Dooku threw at him. He used Dooku's own power against him. The only power used was absorbing and redirecting.

Think about Dooku's TK feats you listed, and compare them to what Sidious did. I think the senate pods were a greater feat, seeing that Yoda could not even catch them with the force, except for one, barely. Yoda is known for his super speed, but had a hard time dodging all those senate pods coming at him, meaning that not only was Sidious able to throw the senate pods, but also at very great speed.Dooku has never thrown anything that heavy with that kind of speed. Yoda did shrug off all of Dooku's TK attacks, and even caught the pillar.

Originally posted by Lucien A
That's it Knightfa11, you've pissed me off for the last time. You're fired.



Ah, crap, now I owe Donald Trump $50. ROFLMAO

That is just common sense. Is anyone really going to argue that Yoda threw his own Sith Lightning at Dooku?

isn't this thread about darth vader vs lucas' next overrated cash cow?

actually tfu was pretty good. I think he means donald trump's apprentice though. I mean look at the first post. Its a smilie of the creator smoking.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
actually tfu was pretty good. I think he means donald trump's apprentice though. I mean look at the first post. Its a smilie of the creator smoking.

i read it got mixed reviews. besides when i wrote "overrated cashcow" i referred to galen himself.

in that case carry on.

I'll carry on if i want to. I don't need your permission

Now i'm a rebel

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That is just common sense. Is anyone really going to argue that Yoda threw his own Sith Lightning at Dooku?

Darth Power was implying that Dooku deflected a force attack from Yoda, when really it was Dooku's own attack he deflected. The point was that Yoda was not attacking Dooku with the force. Obi Wan can stand there throwing things at Yoda, while Yoda shrugs all the attacks. That doesn't mean Obi Wan was a competition.

resisting the empire is very unwise....

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Darth Power was implying that Dooku deflected a force attack from Yoda, when really it was Dooku's own attack he deflected. The point was that Yoda was not attacking Dooku with the force. Obi Wan can stand there throwing things at Yoda, while Yoda shrugs all the attacks. That doesn't mean Obi Wan was a competition.

Precisely.

Here are some quotes from the director of the first clone wars cartoon regarding Mace, mentioned in the commentary:

"He is one of the strongest. Next to Yoda."

"He is number two most powerful."

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
i read it got mixed reviews. besides when i wrote "overrated cashcow" i referred to galen himself.

in that case carry on.

Please, when Kotor came out Revan was overrated to a bigger level then Galen ever was.

MUCH bigger. But that was 5 years ago, we needed a new hero. And we're still waiting.

um i just said he was lucas' next overrated cash cow. i never said he was the biggest,don't make a case out of it.

for the record though. i never saw revan fanboys saying: "he pulled da stardestroya outta da sky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111!!!!!!!one" galen isn't bad but he's not as great as the fanboys make him seem. and yes i know revan fanboys overrate him too.

we don't overrate revan, y'all just underrate him.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
um i just said he was lucas' next overrated cash cow. i never said he was the biggest,don't make a case out of it.

for the record though. i never saw revan fanboys saying: "he pulled da stardestroya outta da sky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111!!!!!!!one" galen isn't bad but he's not as great as the fanboys make him seem. and yes i know revan fanboys overrate him too.

My bad I didn't see your first post on the subject so I apologize for that. It is a lot easier to silence any Galen fanboys (which surprisingly I haven't see all that many on here) due to the novel, that Vader nearly killed him on Corellia and the fact that he actually died helps. From what I understand the star destroyer was already falling and he redirected its flightpath.

But I can't count how many times I heard people saying that Revan is the "heart of the force," that he never truly fell to the darkside even when he was a sith, you get the idea.

it's alright.i probably could have responded in a better fashion,i just didn't feel like an argument.



you are correct. though despite it being an obvious fact some galen fanboys still believe he pulled it from the sky.which annoys me greatly.



but is that honestly as bad as:

HE PULL SHIP OUT OF DA SKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111ONE
or HE RAPED VADEH. or.......HE RAGDOLLED DA EMPERA......imagine that in every single character battle. now i admit i've never had to deal with revan fanboys...

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
i admit i've never had to deal with revan fanboys... You wouldn't like us very much. We can doooo things. I can make gideon, ls, faunus, and Red Nemesis come unhinged pretty easily. y'see, its all part of the plan, even if the plan is something horrible. when someone says that faunus and eunylus are going to get in a debate over vader vs marek, or that gideon is going to own some weak debator (or a strong one for that matter), everyone's fine. But when I say I'm going to use my intelligence for revan in a revan vs palpatine thread, EVERYONE STARTS LOSING THEIR MIND! sorry. It's probably cause i'm buzzed again that I had to write a parody.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
you are correct. though despite it being an obvious fact some galen fanboys still believe he pulled it from the sky.which annoys me greatly.
The novel isn't online yet so I haven't read it yet but I recall hearing that it took him great difficulty so that could be used against people saying he pulled it down with ease.



Meh, I know the novel makes the vader fight more diffiuclt than the game makes it out to be, as far as the emperor goes I would say that the emperor was feigning weakness which Galen evens says in the cutscene and I would quote this from the official databank Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.

i just wish it was easy to make people see that.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Because Dooku can launch lightning, and people are like "whoo... Mace never did anything like that"....

But I think that Mace could easily beat Dooku if he could beat Sidious.

ya but I thought it is stated somewhere that Mace and Dooku were equals

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
i read it got mixed reviews. besides when i wrote "overrated cashcow" i referred to galen himself.

in that case carry on.

lol maybe cuz he's GAYlen

Originally posted by kotorfan
ya but I thought it is stated somewhere that Mace and Dooku were equals

Mace beat Sidious

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Mace beat Sidious Oh snap! Undeniable proof of Mace>Dooku.

Duh.

He knows all, y'know.

Galen Marek FTW.

He lasted the longest against a head-on blast of lightning from Sidious.

And then died from it...

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Your arguement is kinda like saying Obi Wan is stronger than Marka Ragnos, since we never see Ragnos fight anyone powerful. Most of Windu's enemies at that time were battle droids. How many force users are there on the CIS side? How many force users are on the republic's side? Of course Dooku is most likely going to face more force users.

has anyone else noticed the hypocricy in this argument?? Sidious66 is saying that because weve not seen Mace take out other powerful force users out with just the Force like Dooku has, does not mean he cant.. he says Mace can do these things we just havent seen it yet..

and yet his argument for Mace being so uber and superior with the force to Dooku is the CW mini cartoon where Mace takes on an armada of droids, using Force TK(something he culdnt do in AOTC but never mind). well guess what?? weve never seen Dooku take on an armada of droids before either!!! so by your own argument that proves nothing! so stop using hypocricy, if u apply an argument for Mace, then the same applies vice versa for Dooku.

Neway proof that Dookus Force Mastery is superior is the 2 opponents that both Mace and Dooku have faced. Asajj Ventress and Sora Bulq. Though Mace was can comftobly beat both(especially Ventress) he did not take out either ANY WHERE NEAR as easily as Dooku, solely due to Dookus superior Force powers. He renders Bulq completley unconcious with his Force Lightning mid saber fight, and just compleltey paralayzes Ventress by lifting a finger. If Mace could do this then neither of those 2 would have escaped in Schism. ALso Dark Rendezvous calls Dooku the Temples "Most Learned in the Ways of the Force.." whens Mace's Force mastery been described as the best or most learned anywhere??

so thats it. Mace may or may not be Dookus superior in Sabers but all the evidence suggests Dooku is his superior in Force Mastery. Deal with it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Darth Power was implying that Dooku deflected a force attack from Yoda, when really it was Dooku's own attack he deflected. The point was that Yoda was not attacking Dooku with the force. Obi Wan can stand there throwing things at Yoda, while Yoda shrugs all the attacks. That doesn't mean Obi Wan was a competition.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

yeah except that wuldnt happen because in a Force fight with Obi1 Yoda would just instantly paralyze Obi1 like he did to Ventress. Especially if it was his mission to stop Obi1.

and watch the scene again where Yoda shoots the FL back at Dooku. He pushes his hand forward suggesting hes putting his own force into it as well.

seriously your making Yoda out to be a complete idiot. Just standing there doing nothing to stop Dooku when he apparantly easily could??? clearly Yoda wasnt too bothered about the Clone Wars starting??!!

Now Yoda is significantly superior to Dooku in the Force. But Dooku has proved hes one of the very elite who can even COMPETE with Yoda in the Force. Again deal with it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
has anyone else noticed the hypocricy in this argument?? Sidious66 is saying that because weve not seen Mace take out other powerful force users out with just the Force like Dooku has, does not mean he cant.. he says Mace can do these things we just havent seen it yet..

We see dooku taking out more force users than Sidious, so i guess he is more powerful.



So because he didn't do so in AOTC, makes him doing so in CW non-canon. Besides it would have been foolish of him to use a massive wave in AOTC with a lot of jedi standing within his radius.

Did you read my other post where i quoted the directer of CW, stating that Windu was second to Yoda in terms of power.



You are the only one using that arguement. I never said Mace taking out the droids automatically made him Dooku's superior. I used it as an example of how powerful Mace was.



Dooku greatly hints that Sidious took him out with the force the same way the same way Dooku did Ventress. So, again, would that make Sidious greater than Yoda, since Yoda did not take Dooku out the the force



Well the directer of CW says he is second to Yoda, and that he is "the number two most powerful". Also GL says you have to be either Yoda or Windu to even compete with Sidious. Oh yeah and a full potential Anakin.




I just brought out proof he wasn't. Unless you claim to have more authority over the SW universe than the directer of CW.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
We see dooku taking out more force users than Sidious, so i guess he is more powerful.That's the exact same logic you're using on the other thread. Make up your mind.



Since when is the word of a LucasArts worker not named Lucas canon?

Not that it matters; Mace may be the second most powerful Jedi, but Dooku is no longer a Jedi. He is a Sith Lord who has the benefit of being the "best" student to come out of the Temple in recent times.

Mace has Vaapad. Dooku does not.

According to Gideon, who cites some visual guide or another, Sidious killed Agen and Saesee before Mace knew what happened. Had the two been alone before Mace had managed to sink into Vaapad, Palpatine would've probably slaughtered him.

ABC arguments don't work.

DOOKU IS NOT A JEDI.

guys, let's for now just save Mace & Dooku 4 another threat, Anakin vs. Starkiller.

The consensus on that has already been presented, hasn't it?

Starkiller.

Originally posted by Faunus
That's the exact same logic you're using on the other thread. Make up your mind.

If you notice i am actually being sarcastic, and using his own logic against him.





What?



Except he didn't say jedi. He said number 2 most powerful, period.

It reminds of how people argue that the Statement " Sidious is the most powerful sith" can mean of his time only.



Oh so Lucas was refering to Mace's vaapad, which is still a force accomplishment.



So if Sidious was able to kill Windu that fast, Windu would not be a competition, thus making GL wrong.



Im not the one using arguements like " So and so can defeat so and so, because they beat more force users, even though there were hardly any force users for Mace to fight".



He did not specifically say second most powerful jedi. He said second most powerful.

The burden of proof is on you to prove he was refering to only jedi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If you notice i am actually being sarcastic, and using his own logic against him. Nice try pal, every sarcastic or rhetorical remark thrown at you, you've taken literally.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Nice try pal, every sarcastic or rhetorical remark thrown at you, you've taken literally.

Which remarks are you refering to?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which remarks are you refering to?

he's referring to these

That's them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
1) Ventress had no way to escape. Dooku slambed her

4) He defeated Kar Vastor with the force.



by slamming a sharp shield in his chest.. he didn't use any force powers to hurt him. he used tk to throw a shield at him and vastor wasn't blocking..

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

"Galen Marek FTW.

He lasted the longest against a head-on blast of lightning from Sidious."


No Luke lasted the longest. without blocking..

Originally posted by kotorfan
No Luke lasted the longest. without blocking..
To be fair though the lightning that was hitting Luke was not designed to kill him while= the lightning in TFU was.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
We see dooku taking out more force users than Sidious, so i guess he is more powerful.

and we see Mace taking out more droids than we see Sidious taking out.. so what does that mean?? nothing! this was your logic.. not mine!

My argument how much easier Dooku dominates with the Force the 2 opponents that both Mace and Dooku have faced.. that is Ventress and Bulq.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Did you read my other post where i quoted the directer of CW, stating that Windu was second to Yoda in terms of power..

so that would make Sidious no. 3 right?? use logic.. hes talking about jedis, not Sith Lords.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku greatly hints that Sidious took him out with the force the same way the same way Dooku did Ventress. So, again, would that make Sidious greater than Yoda, since Yoda did not take Dooku out the the force..

"Greatly hints" is not a cannon source. we never saw exactly what happened there. but of course Sidious is Dookus superior in the Force.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also GL says you have to be either Yoda or Windu to even compete with Sidious. Oh yeah and a full potential Anakin...

Again GL was talking about JEDIS who could have challenged Sidious. Dooku was a Sith and already dead at that point. (Lucas said it in reference to why the other 3 jedis got cut down soooo easily by Sidious.)
Not to mention Vapaad helps Mace to match Sidious in Speed and Power (but only while fighting HIM) so bad A>B>C argument there.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

He did not specifically say second most powerful jedi. He said second most powerful.

The burden of proof is on you to prove he was refering to only jedi.

Yeah OK!!! SO Sidious is no.3 after Yoda and Mace everybody. Do you even think before writing an argument?!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and we see Mace taking out more droids than we see Sidious taking out.. so what does that mean?? nothing! this was your logic.. not mine!

Not quite i was using your own logic against you. Show where i said Mace taking out droids make him greater than Dooku.




Ventress was not fighting Dooku. She did not even know he was going to attack her.




No not quite. Sidious and Yoda were pretty much equals, so that would still make Windu number two, if Sidious and Yoda were both number 1. I say you use logic. Besides at that time they were not giving too much info on Sidious, so his power was pretty much unknown.




Who else was Dooku refering to? Again you are the one that needs to use logic.




He also said Anakin, who was a sith at the time, so he was not only refering to jedi. He said if Anakin would not have been burned at mustafar, and at that time Anakin was a dark side user.

I just gave proof that says Windu was second most powerful, and people still argue, and say he was only refering to jedi, without proof. I am sure if they were talking about jedi only they would have said it to prevent fans from getting confused.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No not quite. Sidious and Yoda were pretty much equals,Prove it. Canon source, because clearly logic doesn't cut it.

You can't have two number ones, smartass.

Tell you what; go find the actual quote - in context - and post it here. Then we can all look at it together and laugh in your face.

I hope your keyboard fails...

So the director was fallible.

And again, prove that he has any canon authority.

Double standards, too? Oh, wow.

He didn't say Anakin. Don't lie.

They thought fans would be bright enough to get the actual meaning. Clearly, they weren't counting on you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Ventress was not fighting Dooku. She did not even know he was going to attack her.

is there any proof at all she wasnt trying to resist or fight back?? no. because it really wuldnt matter.. she was completely paralyzed and in pain, so theres nothing she could do.
also Obi1 is at least as powerful as Ventress in the Force, and Dooku also paralyzed and Force choked him with a simple flick of the wrist mid saber fight. hes also done the same to Quinlan Vos, whose also a formidable opponent. and rendered Bulq and Ventress unconcious with a simple balst of his force lightning.

Mace has fought both Ventress and Bulq and if he was in Dookus league with the Force then he would have left them both unconcious with ease, and neither of them would have escaped him.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No not quite. Sidious and Yoda were pretty much equals, so that would still make Windu number two, if Sidious and Yoda were both number 1. I say you use logic.

ok simple maths for you. If Yoda and Sidious are both exactly jointly no.1's then the next most powerful is the THIRD most powerful, not second. because he has 2 people above him.
besides the quote you gave was Mace was second after Yoda. no mention of Sidious there, therfore Sith Lords were clearly not included in that statement unless your saying Sidious is less powerful than both Yoda and Mace.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Besides at that time they were not giving too much info on Sidious, so his power was pretty much unknown...

We also were not aware at the time that Dooku was SO Powerful in the Force that he could take out Obi-Wan Kenobi in his Prime with a simple flick of the wrist. And since then weve learned (in the new animated Clone Wars) that Obi-Wan himself was Awsome with the Force, easily Force Pushing Destroyer Droids around and taking out a small army of droids with the Force alone.

Besides weve all had a good idea since ROTJ about how powerful Sidious is. More so than the info we had on Mace.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Who else was Dooku refering to? Again you are the one that needs to use logic....

yes but we didnt see it happen. Its just a hint. For all we know Dooku might have been saying that to Ventress to intimidate her about HOw Much more Powerful Dooku's Sith Master is. Also iv never doubted Sidious being considerably more powerful than Dooku.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He also said Anakin, who was a sith at the time, so he was not only refering to jedi. He said if Anakin would not have been burned at mustafar, and at that time Anakin was a dark side user.....

Actually Anakin was still a Jedi until after that fight. Not that it matters because Dooku was long dead.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I just gave proof that says Windu was second most powerful.

ah yes your amazing proof where in the whole Universe Mace is no.2 only to Yoda. So where does that leave Sidious again??

Originally posted by Faunus
Prove it. Canon source, because clearly logic doesn't cut it.

You are being ridiculus. They stalemated during there battle.

Why should i even bring out a canon source. I did so for Windu, but you still argue.



Sure you can. Why can't you. There is: Yoda and Sidious.



Wow that is your defense? How about you find a quote.

I bet you do.



Oh yeah, because Faunus don't agree, he was fallible.

Your sarcasm is not helping your arguement.

No comment for stupidity.



So then maybe Sidious being the most powerful can mean position in authority.

I gave quotes regarding how powerful Mace was. You gave me one about Dooku being one of the most promising. How about i use your arguement against you, and say promising can mean anything.

sidious just to let you know. i followed your advice,now my head hurts. what has this shown us?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
is there any proof at all she wasnt trying to resist or fight back?? no. because it really wuldnt matter.. she was completely paralyzed and in pain, so theres nothing she could do.

Exactly it was too late for her to fight back. It would be kinda like if someone just came up to me unsuspectedly and socked the shit out of me, chances are i would be knocked unconscience. That does not mean he would be able to do the same if i had my guard and defenses up.

If Obi Wan was on Dantooine, and was faced with over a thousand droids and a huge siesmic take, that was stomping huge craters on the planet, what do you think would happen. I know what you are going to say "This ain't Obi Wan vs Windu", but please just answer the question.

Mace did not use the force against them the way Dooku did.

That is like saying Yoda was able to knock Sidious on his ass, but not Dooku. Yoda did not really use the force against Dooku, just like Mace didn't against Ventress.

I can also easily say Anakin was able to kill Dooku, but Yoda wasn't, so that means Anakin is better.

Ventress was an apprentice to Dooku. You rarely see an apprentice fight there master until they are ready. Just like Palpatine knocked Vader hand off at one point, but Vader did nothing back.




Honestly, i am bad at math, but not as bad as you it seems. If Sidious and Yoda are both number 1, where does two fall in? Are you saying there is no two, it goes 1 to 3? There has to be a number 2, since both Yoda and Sidious are 1.



We knew just as much about Dooku as we did Windu.

In the CW movie we see Obi Wan and Anakin both retreat from a smaller army than Windu took out. So that means the army Windu took out is superior to just Obi Wan, thus making Windu's feat a lot harder than Dooku's.



Yeah but some did not know that Sidious and Palpatine were one in the same, so they did not give out to much info on him. My cousin use to argue that Palpatine was a secret apprentice to Sidious. He was kinda clueless.





Than why all the hints? If he was trying to make Ventress fear his master, why didn't he just come out and say his master did the same thing?

Do you think Dooku was lying and making Sidious out to be more powerful than he is?






He was not no jedi.



It leaves him tied with Yoda, thus making him number one also. Duh! Also he was an unknown at the time.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
sidious just to let you know. i followed your advice,now my head hurts. what has this shown us?

That thinking too hard makes your head hurt. LOL

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You are being ridiculus. They stalemated during there battle.Mace defeated Sidious. He is by no means the Sith Lord's equal.

Because you're trying to apply said source in a horrendously fallacious manner.

And one needs to be better than the other. Not to mention that, as sigma already pointed out, anyone directly under two "equals" would be third, anyway.

You fail.

You don't get to evade the point. You've tried to throw that quote around, so go find it, and post it here. I've never seen it, and I'm not taking you on your word.

Good one.

No; according to you, the director's supposed statement can be attributed to Sith as well because there "wasn't enough information" on Sidious. Ignorance would make him fallible.

It's not sarcasm, dipshit. Prove the director has canon authority.

I lol'd.

You used a double-standard based on garbage logic, I called you out on it. You lied, I called you out on it.

... Wow.

No, you said the director of the CWC - whose canon authority is dubious - said something. You did not provide the actual quote.

Good luck, because Yoda also called Dooku the "strongest."

Not to mention that I didn't even bring that quote up. Get your facts straight.

oy vei, guys, save Mace & Dooku 4 a whole nother thread, Anakin vs. Starkiller!!!!!!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That thinking too hard makes your head hurt. LOL

No YOU make my head hurt.



he's also forgetting mace used vaapad in that fight.

Starkiller wins....continue debating.

Originally posted by Gaevus Mesias
oy vei, guys, save Mace & Dooku 4 a whole nother thread, Anakin vs. Starkiller!!!!!!

A thread is an organic creation- it can change its priorities based on what the posters want to talk about. If we all decided to talk about puppies, or do another 40 page current events thread, there would be little you could do to stop us. The original question has been answered: Starkiller beats Anakin. Nothing more needs to be said.

(The OP is more of a guideline anyway.)

((Pirates FTW))

PUPPIES.

Cholera

Puppies with cholera?

Very possibly.


It was the first headline in Firefox's "Latest headlines" function.

Quick, send one to the WhitePresident-Elect's Future House!

But that would run the risk of infecting him with a potentially life threatening disease! *OH NO!*


...Oh. I see.
I think we should send one to Alaska. Hit Palin. Maybe get her daughter in the process too. (DOUBLE MEANING!!)

Originally posted by Faunus
Mace defeated Sidious. He is by no means the Sith Lord's equal. Are you tired, child? I was refering to Yoda.

How so?

No, either Yoda or Sidious would have to be second for Windu to be third. The directer was talking about level in power; not Yoda, Sidious, and Mace equaling three people.

No! I win.

Fine.




Thanks.

That was not my only arguement.

Are you serious? He only was a director of a canon series. Nothing he said contradicted anything GL said.

Prove the writer who wrote DR has canon authority, because i just don't believe Dooku tooled Ventress.

I also called you out, and told you to prove the director was refering to jedi only.

I know.

Already did. Also if you read the entire thread you would have seen it.

If you take Yoda literaly, than you must believe Dooku is more powerful than Yoda. No?

Calm your nerves.

i'm curious sidious. do you ever pay attention? are you this dense on purpose?



I AGREE! you win alright. you win at failing. failure in the most pathetic contemptible form.



if you mean the first CW show then you are far off. many parts of it were quite non canon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are you tired, child? I was refering to Yoda.I guess I gave you too much credit.

The outcome of a single battle is not enough to rank the participants. Anakin was better than Obi-Wan; faster, stronger, more powerful. He still lost. This is why I pointed you to Mace Windu; the fact that neither Yoda nor Sidious could beat down the other does not necessarily make them equals.

We've been over it. I will not repeat myself again.

I already said that.

Why does everything have to be spelled out for you? If Mace was "number two" out of everybody, he would be more powerful than Sidious.

Context matters.

You didn't address the point. Do so in your next post or drop it; the purposeful brushing aside of everything I say will not be tolerated.

Prove. That. He. Has. Canon. Authority. Working on Star Wars doesn't give someone authority over canon outside their in-universe material.

The "author" doesn't. The omniscient narrator in the novel does. There's a difference between statements made in actual SW literature and comments made in person.

Well, since you repel logic, I asked you to provide the context for the supposed quote. I want the whole thing.

That you're an imbecile?

Link me to it. I've never heard it before, and you've given me no reason to trust you.

No.

Stop being retarded.

Originally posted by Faunus
I guess I gave you too much credit.

The outcome of a single battle is not enough to rank the participants. Anakin was better than Obi-Wan; faster, stronger, more powerful. He still lost. This is why I pointed you to Mace Windu; the fact that neither Yoda nor Sidious could beat down the other does not necessarily make them equals. So who was stronger Yoda or Sidious? They both stalemated during their force battle, so they must be pretty much equals. You can't say either of them was stronger than the other.

Ok so i should only take your word for it.

So you are saying since there are two number ones, there can not be a two.

Besides like i said. How can they rate Sidious? We didn't know how powerful he was. He could have been weaker than Mace for all we know.


Your first arguement was the director was only refering to jedi. You couldn't prove that claim, so now you are saying the director was wrong.

So the director is wrong, unless he inserts the comment in the story?

Lightsnake once gave a source about one of the writers of a SW comics being asked who is the most powerful sith, and the writers reply was: "Palpatine at his peak".

Why didn't you tell Lightsnake he was wrong?



Well you are going to have to buy the CW cartoon dvd, and listen to the commentary.

I hope you don't go around insulting people who disagrees with you in public, because where i am from you would likely get your face smashed.

Again, you have to listen to the commentary.

Didn't think so.

There you go with your insults. Good thing we are just over a computer.

It's not an insult if he's stating fact.

Just because your default pic is joker, does not mean you are funny. But if it makes you feel good to imagine you are funny, and people on the other side of the computer are laughing, then you keep doing so. As for me i am putting you on ignore. To me you are not funny. You are an annoying little pest, that has a sarcastic comment for everything. I will admitt at first i thought you were a bit funny, but now you are old and boring and unfunny. You never even try to make points. You are only here to be a clown, and be silly.

For you own sake.... GROW TFU.

Originally posted by Lucien A
And then died from it...
I highly doubt Anakin would last longer.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just because your default pic is joker, does not mean you are funny. But if it makes you feel good to imagine you are funny, and people on the other side of the computer are laughing, then you keep doing so. As for me i am putting you on ignore. To me you are not funny. You are an annoying little pest, that has a sarcastic comment for everything. I will admitt at first i thought you were a bit funny, but now you are old and boring and unfunny. You never even try to make points. You are only here to be a clown, and be silly.

For you own sake.... GROW TFU. You're adorable, you think this matters.

@occult: Never said he would.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So who was stronger Yoda or Sidious? They both stalemated during their force battle, so they must be pretty much equals. You can't say either of them was stronger than the other.
Your point is?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

So you are saying since there are two number ones, there can not be a two.
Yes. If two people tie for first, then the next person is third.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Besides like i said. How can they rate Sidious? We didn't know how powerful he was. He could have been weaker than Mace for all we know.
He isn't weaker than Mace, as the RotS novelization proves. As for his power level, Gideon or LS can show you definitively just how powerful Palpatine is. I see no reason to go through this (again) when I have neither the source material nor the eloquence to fully describe Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Your first arguement was the director was only refering to jedi. You couldn't prove that claim, so now you are saying the director was wrong.
The director was only referring to Jedi. He was also wrong. Nothing he says out of universe is canon anyway. I'm pretty sure that this is a non-issue.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

So the director is wrong, unless he inserts the comment in the story?
The director's remarks are not considered canon unless they occur within the story he tells. So yes, he is wrong unless he inserts the comment in the story.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Lightsnake once gave a source about one of the writers of a SW comics being asked who is the most powerful sith, and the writers reply was: "Palpatine at his peak".

Why didn't you tell Lightsnake he was wrong?
I don't know the context- and besides, how is this relevant to our argument. If you are trying to look smarter or gain some of LS's reputation by association, I'd suggest you try another tactic. This only shows your desperation.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Well you are going to have to buy the CW cartoon dvd, and listen to the commentary.
So you refuse to verify your source material. This means that it is thrown out. Your argument is now without any semblence of factual support, so feel free to concede the point.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I hope you don't go around insulting people who disagrees with you in public, because where i am from you would likely get your face smashed.
Ah, the ol' "N RL I CUD KIK UR BUT SO SHUT UP CUZ IM FROM DA HOOD AND I GROED UP IN DA STREETS AN IM SO HARD I CUD BEAT UR ASS AND IM GONNA KILL YOU,,," For the love of yahwe, please don't turn into BOOG. I'd hate to clutter my ignore list further.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Didn't think so.

There you go with your insults. Good thing we are just over a computer.
Your attempts at trash talk are truly getting more pathetic as time goes on. You should ask Gideon for lessons. Or maybe Nai. He's entertaining sometimes.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So who was stronger Yoda or Sidious? They both stalemated during their force battle, so they must be pretty much equals. You can't say either of them was stronger than the other.

Ok so i should only take your word for it.

So you are saying since there are two number ones, there can not be a two.


Red Nemesis is correct, when two people are tied for the number one spot the next person is ranked in third, hell videogames such as Halo 3 can and do get this right.


The author would be Kevin J. Anderson who is responsible for the Jedi Academy trilogy and the Tales of the Jedi comic series. There is a key difference between LS using Anderson's opinion vs what you are doing with cw director. The difference is that LS was using Anderson's opinion (since he basically created Exar Kun and maybe Naga Sadow as well as Marka Ragnos) to support his argument which included other feats and quotes about Sidious being the most powerful sith (over the likes of the above mention sith) in old debates. But here you haven't shown much to support the director's opinion and it makes up a very large part of your argument while LS could still win a debate without mentioning Anderson's opinion. See the difference?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Your point is? You would have to read the entire arguement. I am not going to explain it.


So there is no number 2?



You are not following. The time the director made the comment, the novelization was not even out yet, so they could not rate Sidious on a power level, without knowing about him.


So the director is wrong, and you guys are right? I am gonna go by the directors opinion, before i go by anyone on KMC, because the director worked with GL, and had conversations with him.

I can see if the director says that was his opinion, but he didn't. How do you guys know that what the director said is not canon?


It is relevant, because i am wondering why don't anyone start an arguement with him when he quotes an out of universe comment, but they start arguing with me when i do?

If you read this Lightsnake, i am not trying to bring you in this.


Did you want me to mail you the dvd, and play it for you. I verified the source more than once. Are you arguing just to argue.

When did i say that? It is a fact. You don't call people names, or insult them when they don't agree, because chances are you will get beat-up.

I never grew up in the streets. I have the best parents anyone can ask for, who would never allow me to be raised in the streets. I did however grow up around a violent area, where there is nothing to do, so they make fighting a sport. They find any reason to fight, and calling them imbeciles, retards, and morons would make an ideal reason. I am not all for it, but i do believe if someone asks for it let them have it. Do not confuse me for a saggy pants gangster, because that im not.



Does Gideon know you have an obsession with him? I mean seriously, you bring his name up quite a bit.

I am not trying to have a trash talk competition over a SW debate. It is funny you talk about pathetic. You can not even come up with your own lines, so you quote Gideon's.

Please do not reply back. All you know how to do is disrespect me.

Edit: Wow you guys. I feel like a jerk. Should I do something about it? Maybe Gideon's mom will know...

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You would have to read the entire arguement. I am not going to explain it.
I read it. My question was an attempt to get you to explain why it advanced your position. If you are unable to do so then I can simply chalk up another point for Faunus. I was trying to give you another chance to clarify your points, something anyone and everyone should jump at.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

So there is no number 2?
You obviously place a lot of pride in your ability to pay atention to the argument, so do so here:
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Red Nemesis is correct, when two people are tied for the number one spot the next person is ranked in third, hell videogames such as Halo 3 can and do get this right.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

You are not following. The time the director made the comment, the novelization was not even out yet, so they could not rate Sidious on a power level, without knowing about him.
This is just wrong. The creators of SW literature do not read it, nor do they have the continuity memorized to the same degree as their fans. Heck, even Drew Kapshi... (something) who wrote the Darth Bane novels made many mistakes (he said that a student used Vaapad.) There are plot holes in the mythos, primarily caused by ignorance of SW history. (In universe history)

In the specific case of the director, while he was making the movie he didn't need an outside source to rate Palpatine's power- he got to decide it. Did Drew K... have an outside source to rate Bane's power? No. They were in the process of creating canon- not applying it as we do here.

In this specific case of the Director commentary I think you have 3 misconceptions:
1. That it is canon- it is not. Nothing a creator says out of universe counts as canon unless that creator is GL.
2. That the director didn't know what he was talking about- he should know better than anyone because he helped to place Sidious's power in the first place. No matter how much he knew, however, it is not canon. It can be used to illustrate a point, but can not be used as the crux of an argument.
3. I was wrong. There were only two misconceptions. Here's the bottom line:
What the director said was not canon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

So the director is wrong, and you guys are right? I am gonna go by the directors opinion, before i go by anyone on KMC, because the director worked with GL, and had conversations with him.
He probably didn't read/own/experience the massive starwars phenomenon that is Lightsnake's net worth, or Gideon's immense array of sources. They are probably better informed (in universe) than GL. (Of course, he just re-writes canon to fit his words. Like me, he has retroactive infallibility.)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I can see if the director says that was his opinion, but he didn't. How do you guys know that what the director said is not canon?
Because
a). He is not George Lucas.
and
b). he was not speaking through an "in universe" source. Once he's out of the role of author/storyteller, his word means no more (and probably less) than mine.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

It is relevant, because i am wondering why don't anyone start an arguement with him when he quotes an out of universe comment, but they start arguing with me when i do?

If you read this Lightsnake, i am not trying to bring you in this.
Because LS didn't hinge his entire argument on one non-canon source.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Did you want me to mail you the dvd, and play it for you. I verified the source more than once. Are you arguing just to argue.
I hope that if you mailed it you wouldn't have to play it for me. I passed Life- how not to go full retard class last year. I know that DVDs go in the toaster- I mean player.

In all seriousness, I don't care about what the director of a cartoon says outside of his show, which sux anyway.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

When did i say that? It is a fact. You don't call people names, or insult them when they don't agree, because chances are you will get beat-up.
On-line that is not an issue. This is the age of anonymous interpersonal communication my friend. Get used to it. Besides, do you care what someone named Faunus thinks about you? You clearly don't care what I think about you, or else you wouldn't have continued the ridiculous assertion that Vader > N's TK so long.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I never grew up in the streets. I have the best parents anyone can ask for, who would never allow me to be raised in the streets. I did however grow up around a violent area, where there is nothing to do, so they make fighting a sport. They find any reason to fight, and calling them imbeciles, retards, and morons would make an ideal reason. I am not all for it, but i do believe if someone asks for it let them have it. Do not confuse me for a saggy pants gangster, because that im not.
I'm still bitter about a dumbass named BOOG. He went full-retard, and I fear the same for you. Your fall might result in a Taven/Nebaris style death though. I don't think you'll end up replacing periods with triplicated commas.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Does Gideon know you have an obsession with him? I mean seriously, you bring his name up quite a bit.
Gideon is able to make this point far better than I. Why should I try to do something that will be done better, faster and more efficiently by him. Also, Gideon is a good enough kid. His mom loves me, so the least I can do is be nice to her kid.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I am not trying to have a trash talk competition over a SW debate. It is funny you talk about pathetic. You can not even come up with your own lines, so you quote Gideon's.
It is funny you talk about pathetic. You are losing to a supernerd. Either lose the act like you're too good to be here, (you aren't: you've already been contaminated) and raise your game, or go away. No one wants to listen to a 12 year old kid whine about how someone is mean to him online.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Please do not reply back. All you know how to do is disrespect me.
You're retarded. Your arguments have all the subtlety of the fat kindergartner who eats glue. Quit whining. If you can't handle critcism of your arguments (which are dumb) and care enough about my opinion (I promise you that we'll never meet) to cry about what I say then either get off, get better, or don't argue with me.
'kay Nancy?

Wow you are such a hypocrite. You say i am a whiny kid for getting irritated over childish insults, when you just admitted you were still bitter about Boog. Trash talking over a computer only proves how much of a coward you are. You admitt you talk trash over acomputer, because getting beat up is not an issue. Sorry if i mistaken kids with civilized grown-ups. You dare have the nerve to say anything about boog. How are you any better? You both act like childish brats, except you have better grammar and spelling than he does(different writing skills- same child act). Then you have the nerve to threaten to put me on ignore. Are you trying to make me loose sleep? You are an idiot. What points have you made in Dooku's favor? None. You can't even be original with humor. You try to mimic Gideon.

And yes i do believe Vader's skill in TK is greater than Nihilus's. I believe Mace and Dooku are on par with the force, or Mace is a bit more powerful. I believe taking out thousands of droids, and a huge siesmic tank that is crushing crateres on the planet, all in five minute, is more impressive than anything Dooku has done.

You are worse than BOOG. Ivalice implied that he was here as a troll or a joke. You honestly think that what we say here matters. Your loneliness saddens me.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Wow you are such a hypocrite. You say i am a whiny kid for getting irritated over childish insults, when you just admitted you were still bitter about Boog.
I am not angry about what he said to me, I was irritated by his blatant stupidity, as I am by yours. I hold people to the highest standard, my standard, at all times. That you can't live up to them does not surprise me, but I am disappointed that your best effort was such a weak showing.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Trash talking over a computer only proves how much of a coward you are. You admitt you talk trash over acomputer, because getting beat up is not an issue.
I "trash talk" because nothing we say here matters. The people on here aren't even entirely real. The fundamental characteristic of our generation is the ability to communicate with everyone. The sheer magnitude dehumanizes the masses. You had the chance to earn my respect, but you have proved that you are an idiot. You will be on ignore, although I will probably read your next few responses to see if you are just faking stupidity.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Sorry if i mistaken kids with civilized grown-ups. You dare have the nerve to say anything about boog. How are you any better? You both act like childish brats, except you have better grammar and spelling than he does(different writing skills- same child act).
First off, lets not say things we can't take back. But really- do you expect reasoned discourse when your last 3 pages worth (cumulative) of responses all contain such nuggets as "take your pill and calm yourself." and "stop being retarded" and "calm your nerves" (that one especially) and "coming from someone who keeps repeating his arguments," not to mention:

I mean, seriously. What the hell was that? Did you think that it made you look smart? Did it make you feel better to launch a sophomoric (and pathetic) attack at someone who is (clearly) more intelligent than you? What did this accomplish for you?

Don't try to convince us that you haven't ever "trash talked" just 'cause you can't handle the response you got.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Then you have the nerve to threaten to put me on ignore. Are you trying to make me loose sleep?
If this counts as a threat then you clearly value my opinion of your intellect, which is at an all time low. If it is enough to change your behavior then the problem will be solved, but I refuse to be greeted with ignorance guarded by stupidity that has outlived its humorous potential. You are no longer even worth laughing at. I'm done.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

You are an idiot. What points have you made in Dooku's favor? None.
I don't know if you noticed, but I wasn't taking part in this discussion. My posts have been aimed at pointing out inaccuracies or misunderstandings in your own. I haven't the foggiest idea of who is being debated, but I know simply by reading your arguments that your position is the weaker one.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

You can't even be original with humor. You try to mimic Gideon.
How have I mimicked his humor? I have said that I'll allow him to explain a point for me, but I don't think I've copied his style of posts. Again- this was just another desperate distraction in an attempt to create a smokescreen in front of your own inadequacies.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And yes i do believe Vader's skill in TK is greater than Nihilus's.
You are wrong.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I believe Mace and Dooku are on par with the force, or Mace is a bit more powerful.
Dooku was better educated and more skillful in its use. So again, you're wrong.

In this whole whine fest you have made exactly two (2) assertions. Neither is supported by facts, although you did use quotes to explain your reasoning for the second. Congrats on a 100% fail average.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You are worse than BOOG. Ivalice implied that he was here as a troll or a joke. You honestly think that what we say here matters. Your loneliness saddens me. What i say must matter to you, for you to put me on ignore.


Do you not see how hypocritacle you sound? First you say what is said here shouldn't matter, but then you admitt what people say on here irritate you. If what people say on here does not matter it shouldn't irritate you.

So why all the irritation?


Now i am definately going to loose sleep.



He asked for the insults, by insulting me first. I am all for a civilized debate, but if you call me out of my name, then expect the same from me.

He has more skill at sarcasm ill admitt.

Do you consider yourself intelligent by making out retarded "scientific explanations" which were flawed. Lol lifting a cardboard box is harder than crushing a tin can.

I don't trash talk over characters who don't exist, unless people start to trash talk me. That i honestly can say.

I was being sarcastic. I don't count it as a threat at all. However, you must, or else you wouldn't keep repeating it, like i am suppose to feel threatened by it.

So you basically came to this thread to seek me out, and try to correct me. Wow... I feel cyber-stalked.

Except you didn't allow him to explain your point. You repeatedly use his lines and humor.

That you still have not proved.

You are making a claim without backing it up.

You just made an assertion regarding Dooku being more skillful than Windu, without any proof. Wow your hypocracy amazes me.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What i say must matter to you, for you to put me on ignore.
Lol! This coming from the guy who put me on Ignore.

Sidious, how about you master the bold and quote function before you indulge yourself in egocentric, pretentious rambling?

You're not great. I am. I decide who is important around here and annoying people to the point that they put you on ignore isn't a sign of superiority.

It's a sign that you're annoying.

Originally posted by Gideon
Sidious, how about you master the bold and quote function before you indulge yourself in egocentric, pretentious rambling?

You're not great. I am. I decide who is important around here and annoying people to the point that they put you on ignore isn't a sign of superiority.

It's a sign that you're annoying.

I can tell by the many comments you make you think you are great. KMC is probably the only place you get a lot of attention to the point that you consider yourself great.

Wow Gideon is so great he gets to decide who is important on KMC forums.

You take these SW forums so seriously, that it probably has a major impact on your pathetic life. Seriously, any one who talks about how great they are on a forum site needs help.

I will admitt i am a Sidious fan.... a big fan. You on the other hand try to show that you are not so much of a fan, when really you are, even to the point to where you think of yourself as a Palpatine to the KMC.

guyz, plz stop arguing, just answer a simple debate with some backup, Anakin vs. The Apprentice, leave Mace vs. Dooku for another thread.

It has already been answered Starkiller wins.

Originally posted by Gaevus Mesias
guyz, plz stop arguing, just answer a simple debate with some backup, Anakin vs. The Apprentice, leave Mace vs. Dooku for another thread.

Sorry about that. I have a short temper when people sit and talk trash all day.

But as for your thread, i say the apprentice will win. He has done some amazing things with the force, but Anakin is far better with a saber.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So there is no number 2?

NO! There not! Because theres 2 no.1's so theres no place for a no.2.

Look Think of it this way. Theres 2 people. Yoda and Sidious. Both equally powerful. Both the most powerful. But theres 2 of them. They therefore have to jointly share the no. 1 and no. 2 spots.
Otherwise if you rank the 5 most powerful jedis then you will stop at no.4 not no.5, because you would have given 2 people the no.1 spot and still given the no.2 spot to someone esle. Unless you have 6 jedis in the top 5 jedi list which again makes no sense. For the top 5 ranking jedis to stop at no.4 or to have 6 jedis in it makes no sense at all.

Also it doesnt matter whose more powerful between Yoda and Sidious. If we all agree that they are BOTH more powerful than Mace then that would automatically make Mace no more than the THIRD most powerful, because weve all agreed that there are at least 2 people more powerful than him.
If Sidious and Yoda are just as good or not, this has no effect on Mace or his ranking whatsoever, because theres still at least 2 people more powerful than him.

I hope iv taught you some simple maths now. Seems like the education system really is failing kids nowadays.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So the director is wrong, and you guys are right? I am gonna go by the directors opinion, before i go by anyone on KMC, because the director worked with GL, and had conversations with him...

I can see if the director says that was his opinion, but he didn't. How do you guys know that what the director said is not canon?...


Did you want me to mail you the dvd, and play it for you. I verified the source more than once. Are you arguing just to argue...


None of this matters because "the director" never said Sidous is more powerful than Mace or Vice Versa. he didnt even mention Sidious. He just said Mace was no. 2 to Yoda, which is therefore clearly in reference to The Jedi and at That Time during the CW. and dnt give us that crap that "The Director" had no ides how Powerful Sidious was. Because If he didnt then he cant be used as a cannon source. and if he just Assumed Mace is more powerful than Sidious then that would have been a pretty Daft Assumption, so again would not make him a good authority.

Also heres a question for you.. Do you believe that "the director" of the CW mini is more of a cannon source than Dave Filoni the director of the new animated series?? because Dave Filoni was asked about the CW mini, and he said he liked it with it's "Over the top and exaggerated use of the Force.."
More proof that the mini CW was over the top and exaggerated in its diplays of the Force was Yoda fighting in the first episode of the new animated series. He took on an drois armada by sneaking around and taking on a few small army of droids at a time.. He therfore was not capable of replicaiton Mace's feat in the Clone Wars Mini, of taking on a Whole Droid Armada and a Seismic Tank HEAD ON!

Now before people scream at me, im not saying the CW mini was not cannon. The story was completely cannon. Just the use of the Force was exaggerated, according to Dave Filoni. In fact even GL himself says the the mini was his "ideal vision," and therfore not the vision of Jedis hes portrayed in the movies which is the Ultimate Source of cannonicity.




Anyway as for Anakin vs. Starkiller. Starkiller most likely wins using the Force. However Anakin does have a chance if he gets all over him with his Saber like he did to Dooku, who was also Anakins clear superior with the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
NO! There not! Because theres 2 no.1's so theres no place for a no.2.

Look Think of it this way. Theres 2 people. Yoda and Sidious. Both equally powerful. Both the most powerful. But theres 2 of them. They therefore have to jointly share the no. 1 and no. 2 spots.
Otherwise if you rank the 5 most powerful jedis then you will stop at no.4 not no.5, because you would have given 2 people the no.1 spot and still given the no.2 spot to someone esle. Unless you have 6 jedis in the top 5 jedi list which again makes no sense. For the top 5 ranking jedis to stop at no.4 or to have 6 jedis in it makes no sense at all.

Also it doesnt matter whose more powerful between Yoda and Sidious. If we all agree that they are BOTH more powerful than Mace then that would automatically make Mace no more than the THIRD most powerful, because weve all agreed that there are at least 2 people more powerful than him.
If Sidious and Yoda are just as good or not, this has no effect on Mace or his ranking whatsoever, because theres still at least 2 people more powerful than him.

I hope iv taught you some simple maths now. Seems like the education system really is failing kids nowadays.





None of this matters because "the director" never said Sidous is more powerful than Mace or Vice Versa. he didnt even mention Sidious. He just said Mace was no. 2 to Yoda, which is therefore clearly in reference to The Jedi and at That Time during the CW. and dnt give us that crap that "The Director" had no ides how Powerful Sidious was. Because If he didnt then he cant be used as a cannon source. and if he just Assumed Mace is more powerful than Sidious then that would have been a pretty Daft Assumption, so again would not make him a good authority.

Also heres a question for you.. Do you believe that "the director" of the CW mini is more of a cannon source than Dave Filoni the director of the new animated series?? because Dave Filoni was asked about the CW mini, and he said he liked it with it's "Over the top and exaggerated use of the Force.."
More proof that the mini CW was over the top and exaggerated in its diplays of the Force was Yoda fighting in the first episode of the new animated series. He took on an drois armada by sneaking around and taking on a few small army of droids at a time.. He therfore was not capable of replicaiton Mace's feat in the Clone Wars Mini, of taking on a Whole Droid Armada and a Seismic Tank HEAD ON!

Now before people scream at me, im not saying the CW mini was not cannon. The story was completely cannon. Just the use of the Force was exaggerated, according to Dave Filoni. In fact even GL himself says the the mini was his "ideal vision," and therfore not the vision of Jedis hes portrayed in the movies which is the Ultimate Source of cannonicity.




Anyway as for Anakin vs. Starkiller. Starkiller most likely wins using the Force. However Anakin does have a chance if he gets all over him with his Saber like he did to Dooku, who was also Anakins clear superior with the Force.

When did Lucas say this. I thought Lucas said the first CW is how the jedi would be at full extent. Now your arguement is: Since Yoda did not take out the army the way Windu did, it makes what Windu did non-canon. Sorry it don't work that way. Yoda was probably more worried about his comrads safety than he was showing off his force powers.

Starkiller still wins.

He defeated Darth Vader and proceeded to fight Darth Sidious right after the match. Meaning he was NOT in 100% condition when he fought and defeated Sidious.

If Lord Kota did not stop him, he would've finally killed Sidious. But for the purpose of the plot, Sidious had to survive.

The lightning strike from Sidious finally killed him when he powered it up with his own anger against Sidious.

BTW Starkiller probably has the strongest force from any Jedi/Sith Lord (Before you start bashing me that Yoda is the strongest Force user... Of course he is! The dude lived longer than 800+ years!!!). Darth Vader thought the force he felt from Starkiller came from Kento's master. Kento said that Vader already killed his master, so that strong force presence emanated from Starkiller.

EDIT:
Starkiller sensed Kota with his 1st Jedi meditation. After being with the Dark Side for so long, that is one feat no one could replicate.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Starkiller still wins.

He defeated Darth Vader and proceeded to fight Darth Sidious right after the match. Meaning he was NOT in 100% condition when he fought and defeated Sidious.

If Lord Kota did not stop him, he would've finally killed Sidious. But for the purpose of the plot, Sidious had to survive.

The lightning strike from Sidious finally killed him when he powered it up with his own anger against Sidious.

BTW Starkiller probably has the strongest force from any Jedi/Sith Lord (Before you start bashing me that Yoda is the strongest Force user... Of course he is! The dude lived longer than 800+ years!!!). Darth Vader thought the force he felt from Starkiller came from Kento's master. Kento said that Vader already killed his master, so that strong force presence emanated from Starkiller.

EDIT:
Starkiller sensed Kota with his 1st Jedi meditation. After being with the Dark Side for so long, that is one feat no one could replicate.

You have a couple of misconceptions it seems.

- Starkiller did not defeat Sidious, and he wasn't able to.

- Starkiller was not the strongest force user ever, neither was Yoda, although he was a lot stronger than Starkiller.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
You have a couple of misconceptions it seems.

- Starkiller did not defeat Sidious, and he wasn't able to.

- Starkiller was not the strongest force user ever, neither was Yoda, although he was a lot stronger than Starkiller.
Wrong.
Starkiller defeated Sidious.
When he was to deliver the final blow, Kota told him to stop and leave Sidious alone for he was already defeated. Sidious used his lightning on Kota, and Starkiller blocked it with his hands. Sidious finally overpowered his Force and killed him when he unleashed his anger to Sidious, thus making Sidious stronger.

I am not sure if Starkiller is the strongest force user. Thus the word 'probably'.
May I ask, who is the strongest force user, if not Yoda??

How come when Starkiller put everything he had into destroying Palpatine, killing himself in the process, the Emporer was unharmed?

Oh, and Luke Skywalker is eventually the strongest force user.

The official databank makes it clear: Starkiller "was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious." Sidious > Starkiller.



Prove it, hoe!

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Wrong.

Yes, you are


Remind who was the one who walked away with his life.



You do realize that you are pretty much contradicting your first statement.
And as Gideon has said:

Originally posted by occultdestroyer



Sideous sat there and let Galen do that. Sids always does that. He did it to Vader, and he did it to Luke. The whole "kill me! Strike me down!" thing is Sids shtick.

"Anger" itself doesn't make Sideous stronger...



He's not.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Sideous sat there and let Galen do that. Sids always does that. He did it to Vader, and he did it to Luke. The whole "kill me! Strike me down!" thing is Sids shtick.

"Anger" itself doesn't make Sideous stronger...



He's not.

Kuke Skywalker.. from store wars xD

and just a random comment.. Yoda only lost to sids because he was standing further out of the pod.. not even within the railing so obviously he would be blasted farther apart because of that and his light weight. so i would say yoda had a chance to beat palpy. watch the vid some other person posted. notice where yoda stands at 3:23.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gnjyp0nSqc

as a side note.. I don't get why sids didn't get hit by the pod yoda threw at him. It always looked to me as if it went through sids not beside or above..

No one said that Yoda didn't have a chance to defeat Palpatine. Hell, he had at least a 50/50 opportunity prior to losing his lightsaber.

Originally posted by kotorfan
Kuke Skywalker.. from store wars xD

and just a random comment.. Yoda only lost to sids because he was standing further out of the pod.. not even within the railing so obviously he would be blasted farther apart because of that and his light weight. so i would say yoda had a chance to beat palpy. watch the vid some other person posted. notice where yoda stands at 3:23.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gnjyp0nSqc

as a side note.. I don't get why sids didn't get hit by the pod yoda threw at him. It always looked to me as if it went through sids not beside or above..

According to the novel, Yoda admitts he didn't have it in him to defeat Sidious.

Don't take that literally. It wasn't an admission on Yoda's part that he lacked the Force mastery or lightsaber aptitude to kill Sidious.

Yoda was discussing the new Sith Order itself as an ideal, not Sidious as a combatant.

Yoda lost because he fell right into Sidious's hands. Again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And then some more. And then once after that.

As Stover puts it, by fighting at all, the Jedi lost.

Originally posted by Faunus
Yoda was discussing the new Sith Order itself as an ideal, not Sidious as a combatant.

I think it was a bit of both. If Yoda did have it in him to take Sidious out, then he had it in him to take out the entire sith order out.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I think it was a bit of both.It wasn't. Yoda in no way lacked the physical capability to best Sidious in personal combat.

I personally feel that if they had been fighting on, say, a grassy flat meadow, Yoda would have won.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
I personally feel that if they had been fighting on, say, a grassy flat meadow, Yoda would have won.

Possibly, but he'd subsequently drown in a pool of his own blood for the effort.

Pfft. There is no blood in the PT-era.

Originally posted by Faunus
It wasn't. Yoda in no way lacked the physical capability to best Sidious in personal combat.

No he didn't, but after several minutes of fighting, Yoda realized that fighting was getting no where, and that neither of them held a great advantage over the other. They were pretty much evenly matched. After Yoda realized he was unable to out match Sidious with a saber and the force, continuing the fight would not make a difference.

... according to who?

The novelization doesn't even remotely suggest that. Nor does the movie. Nor does the script. And, more importantly, I'm telling you it doesn't. My word is law.

Originally posted by Gideon
The novelization doesn't even remotely suggest that. Nor does the movie. Nor does the script. And, more importantly, I'm telling you it doesn't. My word is law.

Here are Yoda's exact thoughts:

"He Knew, at that instant, that this insight held hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him."

This was stated near the end of the fight. Now notice how right before the fight even started, Yoda seemed to have more confidence. Towards the end of the fight Yoda's thoughts were: "He just didn't have it", and the thought i quoted above. Do you think that if Yoda had faith he could kill Sidious, he would be making comments like this.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Here are Yoda's exact thoughts:

"He Knew, at that instant, that this insight held hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him."

This was stated near the end of the fight. Now notice how right before the fight even started, Yoda seemed to have more confidence. Towards the end of the fight Yoda's thoughts were: "He just didn't have it", and the thought i quoted above. Do you think that if Yoda had faith he could kill Sidious, he would be making comments like this.

That's bullshit revisionist history. That Yoda went into the fight with more confidence than what he ended up with isn't an indicator that he lacked the power to beat Sidious; it meant that it just was going to be more difficult than he imagined it would be.

As far as confidence goes, I seem to recall a certain Sith Lord cackling and laughing at his "little green friend" yet his one way flight over the desk prompted him to haul ass out of his office.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's bullshit revisionist history. That Yoda went into the fight with more confidence than what he ended up with isn't an indicator that he lacked the power to beat Sidious; it meant that it just was going to be more difficult than he imagined it would be.

Before you make this into a long drawn out arguement, please read carefully what i wrote. When exactly did i say Yoda lacked capability? By Yoda's own admission he did not have it in him to defeat Sidious, and which he didn't. Yoda tried to kill Sidious and failed, but nor was Sidious able to kill Yoda. Here is a quote from the Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary:

"In his contest with Sidious, Yoda realizes he is overmatched and deserts the fight, perhaps because his spirit has been broken by so many jedi deaths".



What exactly does this have to do with what i said?

Ya know Gideon, when you quote the idiot you make it a lot harder to ignore it. When you circumvent the Ignore function you undermine all that makes KMC great. (Me.)


I don't count Faunus's greatness because he sucks. And he's a fatty.

(JK?)