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Ask some one of the Christian faith why God allows bad things to happen and they will likely associate it with the fact that God gave us free will so we could do as we please or make our own decisions. If this is the case then why are we punished for the choices God allowed us to make? Why do Heaven and Hell exist?

Would you give a baby a loaded gun and punish it for shooting some one and reward it for not. We have free will until we do some thing God does not like then it is eternal pain and suffering, better luck next time. Apparantly God enjoys punishing people who didn't think or even know they did some thing wrong. Why is our contract of free will terminated once we die?

Originally posted by Magee
Ask some one of the Christian faith why God allows bad things to happen and they will likely associate it with the fact that God gave us free will so we could do as we please or make our own decisions. If this is the case then why are we punished for the choices God allowed us to make? Why do Heaven and Hell exist?

Would you give a baby a loaded gun and punish it for shooting some one and reward it for not. We have free will until we do some thing God does not like then it is eternal pain and suffering, better luck next time. Apparantly God enjoys punishing people who didn't think or even know they did some thing wrong. Why is our contract of free will terminated once we die?

The State punishes culpable people for committing crimes all the time, crimes they know are wrong but have they power to do them or not.

Its the same with God, he's said "You can do things my way, or the other way- if you break my rules you'll pay for it, if you follow them, you will be rewarded" Sort of how most parents treat their kids.

Originally posted by Magee
Ask some one of the Christian faith why God allows bad things to happen and they will likely associate it with the fact that God gave us free will so we could do as we please or make our own decisions. If this is the case then why are we punished for the choices God allowed us to make? Why do Heaven and Hell exist?

Would you give a baby a loaded gun and punish it for shooting some one and reward it for not. We have free will until we do some thing God does not like then it is eternal pain and suffering, better luck next time. Apparantly God enjoys punishing people who didn't think or even know they did some thing wrong. Why is our contract of free will terminated once we die?

Heaven and hell do not exist. Problem solved...

The Orthodox Church ,which split from the Roman Church in 1054, Split because they interpreted the Bible to say that Satan and all who fallowed will be destroyed, to be no longer(There were other issues as well but i am addressing your question). Like it mentions in the Old Testament "Sheol" the grave ,to be dead, nothingness. So to The Orthodox the Punishment not getting to live with God (as do the Hebrews believe) in the end not burning in a lake of fire. There is also another Theological school of thought, Look it up "Apocatistasis" that All will be saved. In Pauls writing to Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief (born into sin) that he may have mercy upon ALL" SO its really only The Catholics and some Protestant denominations that even buy into the idea of an eternal damnation.

One more thing I put a little more stock in the Orthodox Church because they are the Greek Churches, The Apostles wrote in Greek so i would think their interpretations were more accurate. The Roman churches interpretation "The Vulgate" was interpreted into Latin. This leaves room for many errors as Martin Luther points out in 1517.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Heaven and hell do not exist. Problem solved...

Shakyamunison wouldn't you consider returning to the collective conscious, the community of enlightened oneness from which our "becoming" on this earth originates as Heaven

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
Shakyamunison wouldn't you consider returning to the collective conscious, the community of enlightened oneness from which our "becoming" on this earth originates as Heaven
We are already there. This is heaven, and hell. This life is were "the collective conscious, the community of enlightened oneness from which our "becoming" on this earth originates". There is no supernatural.

Originally posted by Magee


Would you give a baby a loaded gun and punish it for shooting some one and reward it for not.

I'd punish it if it were a person and it knew that shooting someone was bad, yeah.

Originally posted by Magee
Would you give a baby a loaded gun and punish it for shooting some one and reward it for not?

Poor example. God gave a list of behaviors one should not to, the choice is made to defy them. Secondly babies do not have an sense of morality or an understanding that their actions have consequences, people do.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
The State punishes culpable people for committing crimes all the time, crimes they know are wrong but have they power to do them or not.

Its the same with God, he's said "You can do things my way, or the other way- if you break my rules you'll pay for it, if you follow them, you will be rewarded" Sort of how most parents treat their kids. However your analogy doesn't work because God also created free will and everything that goes with it. He also created the knowledge of good and evil and used it to tempt us.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
The State punishes culpable people for committing crimes all the time, crimes they know are wrong but have they power to do them or not.

Its the same with God, he's said "You can do things my way, or the other way- if you break my rules you'll pay for it, if you follow them, you will be rewarded" Sort of how most parents treat their kids. What about people who did not know Christianity even existed? Why did God give us free will but then tell us how to live our lives, do as he says or go to hell. It would seem God is trying to bribe people to beleive in him and it's a pretty effective one.

Do people go to hell for not being Christian? Is that really free will?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
However your analogy doesn't work because God also created free will and everything that goes with it. He also created the knowledge of good and evil and used it to tempt us.

And you still get to make a choice. That changes nothing.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And you still get to make a choice. That changes nothing. But God created the free will and created everything that makes us up down to the very quarks in our body. He made how the universe works, how our brains work and the emotions that we have. How we perceive things and how we think, this is all that he made which includes introducing the thoughts of evil and good. He created how our minds process the information that we receive, how information is transmitted and stored, how we make decisions based on information that we have gathered. All of this he created, free will is something that he designed and built into us it is not something that we created on our own. He created it to do exactly that and introduce us to temptation and evil knowing full well that man would use it. Why would he have to give us free will and then introduce evil, if it is only our decision to follow him why would he need the introduction of evil?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
But God created the free will and created everything that makes us up down to the very quarks in our body. He made how the universe works, how our brains work and the emotions that we have. How we perceive things and how we think, this is all that he made which includes introducing the thoughts of evil and good. He created how our minds process the information that we receive, how information is transmitted and stored, how we make decisions based on information that we have gathered. All of this he created, free will is something that he designed and built into us it is not something that we created on our own. He created it to do exactly that and introduce us to temptation and evil knowing full well that man would use it. Why would he have to give us free will and then introduce evil, if it is only our decision to follow him why would he need the introduction of evil?

The choice is still there, your fate is in your hands.

Originally posted by Magee
What about people who did not know Christianity even existed? Why did God give us free will but then tell us how to live our lives, do as he says or go to hell. It would seem God is trying to bribe people to beleive in him and it's a pretty effective one.

Do people go to hell for not being Christian? Is that really free will?

Pity...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
The choice is still there, your fate is in your hands. How do we make the choice? It is how we have stored the information in our brains, how we have grown up and been taught in our environment and all of this is what he created. He created how we process the information, how and why we do the things that we do. God has created and set every possible and conceivable variable that will ever come into our lives. He created how we respond to temptation and evil; how we respond to good he created everything that has to do with everything or did he not create free will?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Heaven and hell do not exist. Problem solved...

Nor does free will, in the Christian sense. Problem further solved.



Also, any believer will offer their personal take on it. The fact is that you can reconcile evil from a theistic paradigm if you choose to, or you can see it as an irreconcilable problem. It's all in your willingness (or lack thereof) to put faith in whatever deity/doctrine you happen to be following.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
The choice is still there, your fate is in your hands.


Only if you believe in Christian mythology. To me, free will is irrelevant. What we do is driven by cause and effect, and in the big picture, Karma.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Only if you believe in Christian mythology. To me, free will is irrelevant. What we do is driven by cause and effect, and in the big picture, Karma. karma kameleon

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Only if you believe in Christian mythology. To me, free will is irrelevant. What we do is driven by cause and effect, and in the big picture, Karma.

His argument is in the context of Christian Theology, thus your arguments are void.

If he said "in Norse theology is there..." and we proceeded to discuss it, your sitting on the sidelines going "none of its true" wouldn't matter and would therefore not gain you any credit. Look how Digi handled this question, he is debating in the context...your just being useless.

He's not being useless, but stating his opinion. He can't approach it from a Christian perspective because he doesn't hold it. I don't either, but merely stated how it's not hard to do. Justifications, even illogical ones, aren't hard for the mind to create when it wants one badly enough. It doesn't mean I find Christian free will any more coherent than shakya.

So useless, no. Difficult, perhaps. But that's part of the internet's charm, no?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
So useless, no. Difficult, perhaps. But that's part of the internet's charm, no?

It's irrelevant so how is it useful?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
He's not being useless, but stating his opinion. He can't approach it from a Christian perspective because he doesn't hold it. I don't either, but merely stated how it's not hard to do. Justifications, even illogical ones, aren't hard for the mind to create when it wants one badly enough. It doesn't mean I find Christian free will any more coherent than shakya.

So useless, no. Difficult, perhaps. But that's part of the internet's charm, no?

Did you go to University?

I don't believe in Islam but I've written about it and discussed its theology even though I didn't believe in it.

I don't believe in many of the criticisms of Western Imperialism but I have still managed to write arguments against them...

Objective thought is not desirable, its mandatory.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It's irrelevant so how is it useful?

It's his opinion on the subject. He's free to post it, and it isn't off-topic. That it might not further the specific intent of the thread starter is perhaps unfortunate, but irrelevant to his right to post. The thread started with a premise and asked a question. Shakya maintains that he rejects the original premise and thus can't field the question. It's a valid response.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Did you go to University?

I don't believe in Islam but I've written about it and discussed its theology even though I didn't believe in it.

I don't believe in many of the criticisms of Western Imperialism but I have still managed to write arguments against them...

Objective thought is not desirable, its mandatory.

Um, wut? Objective thought is one thing for scholarly papers that offer analysis, not opinion. But are you really saying shakya should set aside his beliefs in order to discuss what he considers to be a flawed premise/question? On an internet discussion forum? I hope not.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Um, wut? Objective thought is one thing for scholarly papers that offer analysis, not opinion. But are you really saying shakya should set aside his beliefs in order to discuss what he considers to be a flawed premise/question? On an internet discussion forum? I hope not.

I am saying that going "it doesn't exist" is not a valid answer to anything. Objectivity should be carried over to all walks of life, you shouldn't leave it in the lecture theatre.

Do you honestly think you should?

Originally posted by Magee
What about people who did not know Christianity even existed? Why did God give us free will but then tell us how to live our lives, do as he says or go to hell. It would seem God is trying to bribe people to beleive in him and it's a pretty effective one.

Do people go to hell for not being Christian? Is that really free will?

If you go back and read my post you will see not All Christians believe in Hell. And I agree with you "Worship me or burn for ever" sounds like a human concept not a God of Mercy, Love, Grace and Kindness. There is no choice there. Who wants to be tormented for ever. And you also have to decipher if what the Bible is saying is Figurative or Literal. This is what causes Denominations and schisms in the Church. Interpreting what is Figurative or literal.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
The Orthodox Church ,which split from the Roman Church in 1054, Split because they interpreted the Bible to say that Satan and all who fallowed will be destroyed, to be no longer(There were other issues as well but i am addressing your question). Like it mentions in the Old Testament "Sheol" the grave ,to be dead, nothingness. So to The Orthodox the Punishment not getting to live with God (as do the Hebrews believe) in the end not burning in a lake of fire. There is also another Theological school of thought, Look it up "Apocatistasis" that All will be saved. In Pauls writing to Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief (born into sin) that he may have mercy upon ALL" SO its really only The Catholics and some Protestant denominations that even buy into the idea of an eternal damnation.

Orthodox Church (as the name suggests) didn't separate from Roman Catholic church, but other way around.

Orthodox Christianity is the oldest denomination in Christianity.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Orthodox Church (as the name suggests) didn't separate from Roman Catholic church, but other way around.

Orthodox Christianity is the oldest denomination in Christianity.

The separated from each other...

The Pope in Rome and the Patriarch of Constantinople mutually excommunicated each other, not over theology but over authority.

They both co-recognise each other as the Church made by Christ.
They both co-recognise the validity of each others Holy Orders and Apostolic Succession.

More recently the Eastern Orthodox Churches acknowledge the Bishop of Rome does hold primacy over all other Bishops, but they said it was only Primacy of Honour...

Neither separated from either- there was the Christian Church which split into east and west becoming the Roman Rite and the Eastern Rite.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Orthodox Church (as the name suggests) didn't separate from Roman Catholic church, but other way around.

Orthodox Christianity is the oldest denomination in Christianity.

Thats not true .Each Church preached their own doctrine In the early years( Refer to the letters from Paul to note what the Churches were). The Counsel of Nicaea is famous because Constantine(Being the Western Roman Emperor tried to universalize ,wanting to bring all Churches under control making one Bible). Catholic means Universal. So the Roman Church became THE Church. There were many books and letters written that were popping up here and there from the various churches libraries so every Hundred years the Bishops of the Churches would get together and debated on whether to canonize them or not. The great schism in 1054 was over 1.That Satan is Destroyed in the end therefor, No Hell 2. whether the Eucharist was the actual body and blood of Christ or symbolic.3. whether Christ was All man and All God or just Man. The reason for the Orthodox meaning "Original" called themselves that when they broke away from the "Universal" Church is because in their eyes they were adhering to the Original ideas of Christ, And original interpretations of the Apostle and not the Catholic Vulgate .

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
Thats not true .Each Church preached their own doctrine In the early years( Refer to the letters from Paul to note what the Churches were). The Counsel of Nicaea is famous because Constantine(Being the Western Roman Emperor tried to universalize ,wanting to bring all Churches under control making one Bible). Catholic means Universal. So the Roman Church became THE Church. There were many books and letters written that were popping up here and there from the various churches libraries so every Hundred years the Bishops of the Churches would get together and debated on whether to canonize them or not. The great schism in 1054 was over 1.That Satan is Destroyed in the end therefor, No Hell 2. whether the Eucharist was the actual body and blood of Christ or symbolic.3. whether Christ was All man and All God or just Man. The reason for the Orthodox meaning "Original" called themselves that when they broke away from the "Universal" Church is because in their eyes they were adhering to the Original ideas of Christ, And original interpretations of the Apostle and not the Catholic Vulgate .

Do you have any evidence to suggest that

"1.That Satan is Destroyed in the end therefor, No Hell 2. whether the Eucharist was the actual body and blood of Christ or symbolic.3. whether Christ was All man and All God or just Man."

is anything to do with the Split? Any Church historian will tell you that the break was over authority NOT doctrine, the two rites coexisted in union for a long time ignoring each others differing practices.

You haven't even mentioned the "Proceeds from the Father and the Son" clause or, Filoque, which is the real doctrinal reason for any split, which makes me wonder how much you really know...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I am saying that going "it doesn't exist" is not a valid answer to anything. Objectivity should be carried over to all walks of life, you shouldn't leave it in the lecture theatre.

Do you honestly think you should?

Here's one of the lines that you're upset about, from one of his posts:
To me, free will is irrelevant.

The key words, I would think, are "to me." It's an opinion. He's not being dogmatic about it. And if certain posts don't include such disclaimers, we've all interacted with shakya enough to know that if he says something, he's stating it as his personal belief, not a dogmatic statement of irrefutable fact.

So it's his opinion. It's valid, backed with logic, and on-topic. I couldn't care less that it disagrees with the thread's premise, and therefore isn't the same line of discussion as you and others can have. The only troubling thing, to me, is that he's taking flak for it.

Objectivity isn't putting aside one's beliefs in order to work with something one considers flawed. It's fielding opinions and gauging them on their merits (or lack thereof) and deciding their validity (or lack therof) as with as little bias as possible

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Do you have any evidence to suggest that

"1.That Satan is Destroyed in the end therefor, No Hell 2. whether the Eucharist was the actual body and blood of Christ or symbolic.3. whether Christ was All man and All God or just Man."

is anything to do with the Split? Any Church historian will tell you that the break was over authority NOT doctrine, the two rites coexisted in union for a long time ignoring each others differing practices.

You haven't even mentioned the "Proceeds from the Father and the Son" clause or, Filoque, which is the real doctrinal reason for any split, which makes me wonder how much you really know...

You are right about the split being mainly about authority. But the doctrinal differences i said are fact. I was trying to point out to A person, who might have a more positive understanding of God, that not All Christian Denominations believe in Hell and that the Bible can be interpreted in many ways due to the fact that its up to the person to decipher through prayer whether what is said is literal or figurative (Hence the Plethora of denominations).. Then I was pointing out, to another person, that Orthodox does mean original but was not the "Oldest Denomination" The oldest "Denomination" would be Catholic which means "Universal" Started by Constantine at the counsel of Nicaea. So your counter points are irrelevant to the points i was trying to make. If anyone has the slightest interest in this they can easily research what i have said and find it to be true but,I could compile a list of books i have on the History of the Church and Theology if you or anyone is interested. I was simply trying to inspire someone to grow closer to God not trying to show off that i know so much. I know what God has revealed to me. And remember Brother "Those who profess to be wise are fools" so i do not profess. I'm just a sign post.

OK, lets talk about Free Will; Free Will would mean that I have a freedom to choose, at any moment, the choice that I wished to make. However, that is never the case. There are always choices that are beyond our ability to choose. I cannot levitate, or fly or travel to a distant star. I cannot take my life, and then regain it at will. My will is limited, and there is more that I cannot do, at any moment, then what I can do. Also, my will is not free, in that for everything I do there is a cost. Just typing this post has cost me time that cannot be replace. What gives me the choices I have in front of me right now are all the choices I have made in the past. I cannot change that, because I cannot change what I am, for I can only change what I will become. The path I am taking is Karma, and Karma is not Free Will. So, is Free Will a Deceitful 'Contract'? I do not know. To me, it would be like asking if Santa Clause was mad.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
OK, lets talk about Free Will; Free Will would mean that I have a freedom to choose, at any moment, the choice that I wished to make. However, that is never the case. There are always choices that are beyond our ability to choose. I cannot levitate, or fly or travel to a distant star. I cannot take my life, and then regain it at will. My will is limited, and there is more that I cannot do, at any moment, then what I can do. Also, my will is not free, in that for everything I do there is a cost. Just typing this post has cost me time that cannot be replace. What gives me the choices I have in front of me right now are all the choices I have made in the past. I cannot change that, because I cannot change what I am, for I can only change what I will become. The path I am taking is Karma, and Karma is not Free Will. So, is Free Will a Deceitful 'Contract'? I do not know. To me, it would be like asking if Santa Clause was mad.

You're deliberately shuffling the meaning of words to make ridiculous arguments. Also if you essentially don't believe in the question what is the point of you giving an answer?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You're deliberately shuffling the meaning of words to make ridiculous arguments. Also if you essentially don't believe in the question what is the point of you giving an answer?

He initially didn't, but spoke his mind. His comments were in response to Gav's forceful suggestion that he put aside his beliefs for the sake of the thread. At this point, it would probably be best if it were dropped on all sides, since the spat between the two isn't doing anything productive.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
If you go back and read my post you will see not All Christians believe in Hell. And I agree with you "Worship me or burn for ever" sounds like a human concept not a God of Mercy, Love, Grace and Kindness. There is no choice there. Who wants to be tormented for ever. And you also have to decipher if what the Bible is saying is Figurative or Literal. This is what causes Denominations and schisms in the Church. Interpreting what is Figurative or literal. I know this, it's the reason why I asked the question. I'm really asking the people (if there are any here) who beleive every word of the bible or at least the parts that relate to the question. I don't know what sect of Christianity that is, Catholic maybe. Although I don't expect to get a rational answer I'm still interested in what they have to say about it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
OK, lets talk about Free Will; Free Will would mean that I have a freedom to choose, at any moment, the choice that I wished to make. However, that is never the case. There are always choices that are beyond our ability to choose. I cannot levitate, or fly or travel to a distant star. I cannot take my life, and then regain it at will. My will is limited, and there is more that I cannot do, at any moment, then what I can do. Also, my will is not free, in that for everything I do there is a cost. Just typing this post has cost me time that cannot be replace. What gives me the choices I have in front of me right now are all the choices I have made in the past. I cannot change that, because I cannot change what I am, for I can only change what I will become. The path I am taking is Karma, and Karma is not Free Will. So, is Free Will a Deceitful 'Contract'? I do not know. To me, it would be like asking if Santa Clause was mad. Wise words. I completley agree with this.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
He initially didn't, but spoke his mind. His comments were in response to Gav's forceful suggestion that he put aside his beliefs for the sake of the thread. At this point, it would probably be best if it were dropped on all sides, since the spat between the two isn't doing anything productive.

Gav only suggested that he actually address the question of the thread. I don't see what's wrong with that. Shakya can spout irrelevant nonsense all he likes but he should also have to accept that people will call him out when he starts spouting irrelevant nonsense.

Originally posted by Magee
I'm really asking the people (if there are any here) who beleive every word of the bible or at least the parts that relate to the question. I don't know what sect of Christianity that is, Catholic maybe.

There isn't one. Most believe that they take the entire Bible at it's word but in reality all of them place higher emphasis on some part or another based on either the founder's beliefs or the individual's particular feelings on the subject.

The answer you'll probably get most of the time is that you argument doesn't really make sense. God gives free will, you make choices, if you make the wrong ones you are punished for it. Your mistakes aren't God's fault because you can think, you have the Bible (or other holy text) fully available to you and he/she/it/they/we/I gave you free will thus taking it out of God's hands.

Modern society has the same system. Society assumes you can think. Society has laws (or at least social guidelines) The laws are there for anyone to look at. If you break them you are punished.

I don't see what's so hard to understand.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The answer you'll probably get most of the time is that you argument doesn't really make sense. God gives free will, you make choices, if you make the wrong ones you are punished for it. Your mistakes aren't God's fault because you can think, you have the Bible (or other holy text) fully available to you and he/she/it/they/we/I gave you free will thus taking it out of God's hands. What about people who don't know about Christianity or have never had the opportunity to learn about it? A lot of people don't have a bible available to them, God's solution is to let them burn in hell.

Compariing it to the law is not the same as every one in there country has access to those laws and knows them (generally).

Who on Earth honestly don't know about Christianity?

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Who on Earth honestly don't know about Christianity? http://regmedia.co.uk/2008/05/30/uncontacted_tribe.jpg

Originally posted by Magee
http://regmedia.co.uk/2008/05/30/uncontacted_tribe.jpg



They soon will.

Originally posted by Magee
http://regmedia.co.uk/2008/05/30/uncontacted_tribe.jpg



Great Answer. and what about all the souls of the past 2000 years that haven't heard it? For a debatable sake lets say God made us all.. We have the knowledge of good and evil. So people ,whether they know the Bible or not ,know Killing is wrong,know stealing is wrong,know taking a mans wife is wrong, know being a liar is wrong. These things are in us. We don't need a teacher to tell us these things. These Natives have it in them to be good or evil and will be judged according to their social construct. And according to the Apocatistasis we all have Gods Grace. SO the Native who shares his monkey meat and tries to keep peace with incurring tribes and doesn't steal any ones wife will receive mercy. I hope everyone realize i am generalizing so don't pick each word apart.

Ok Gav and Chaos lay it on me

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Who on Earth honestly don't know about Christianity? In modern times, not many maybe a few thousand or so but isn't on life to God just as precious as the other? Now if you want to go back a few hundred to a thousand years then you are looking at most of the population of the Earth.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
In modern times, not many maybe a few thousand or so but isn't on life to God just as precious as the other? Now if you want to go back a few hundred to a thousand years then you are looking at most of the population of the Earth.

If I may add my 2cents DP I believe All life is precious to God. And He did not set us up for an eternity in Hell. Think about the amount of souls that would be in Hell comparatively to those who would be in Heaven. That would be inherently Evil in itself which God is not.

Originally posted by Magee
I know this, it's the reason why I asked the question. I'm really asking the people (if there are any here) who beleive every word of the bible or at least the parts that relate to the question. I don't know what sect of Christianity that is, Catholic maybe. Although I don't expect to get a rational answer I'm still interested in what they have to say about it.



The Catholics pushed this concept of Hell to administer their Authority over the populace. To scare them into coming to Church . Early peoples were very afraid of the afterlife and Demons and because the commoner could not read Latin they could not read the Bible for themselves so the Catholics had a monopoly on the Afterlife game which was very powerful to superstitious peoples. The Pope had the ability to condemn you to Hell. This Held more Power than any King.That's it.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
If I may add my 2cents DP I believe All life is precious to God. And He did not set us up for an eternity in Hell. Think about the amount of souls that would be in Hell comparatively to those who would be in Heaven. That would be inherently Evil in itself which God is not. If you look at the numbers 100% of the population would be going to Hell before Christianity came into being, and today (at best) about 66% but more likely 80%. Seems God's word is not getting around.

Originally posted by Magee
I know this, it's the reason why I asked the question. I'm really asking the people (if there are any here) who beleive every word of the bible or at least the parts that relate to the question. I don't know what sect of Christianity that is, Catholic maybe. Although I don't expect to get a rational answer I'm still interested in what they have to say about it.



Please check this out Magee

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

Originally posted by Da Pittman
If you look at the numbers 100% of the population would be going to Hell before Christianity came into being, and today (at best) about 66% but more likely 80%. Seems God's word is not getting around.

Amen brother

Originally posted by Magee
What about people who don't know about Christianity or have never had the opportunity to learn about it? A lot of people don't have a bible available to them, God's solution is to let them burn in hell.

According to you. According to me anyone who lives a good life should be safe from going to hell (see Lycanthrope's point below)

Originally posted by Magee
Compariing it to the law is not the same as every one in there country has access to those laws and knows them (generally).

It's much better than your example and anyway that's what missionaries are for. Besides most people have at least heard of Christianity.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
Great Answer. and what about all the souls of the past 2000 years that haven't heard it? For a debatable sake lets say God made us all.. We have the knowledge of good and evil. So people ,whether they know the Bible or not ,know Killing is wrong,know stealing is wrong,know taking a mans wife is wrong, know being a liar is wrong. These things are in us. We don't need a teacher to tell us these things. These Natives have it in them to be good or evil and will be judged according to their social construct. And according to the Apocatistasis we all have Gods Grace. SO the Native who shares his monkey meat and tries to keep peace with incurring tribes and doesn't steal any ones wife will receive mercy. I hope everyone realize i am generalizing so don't pick each word apart.

Ok Gav and Chaos lay it on me

Good answer.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
If you look at the numbers 100% of the population would be going to Hell before Christianity came into being, and today (at best) about 66% but more likely 80%. Seems God's word is not getting around.

80% of people haven't even heard of Christianity? I find that extremely difficult to believe.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
80% of people haven't even heard of Christianity? I find that extremely difficult to believe. Not that they haven't heard of it which I said in my earlier post but that they will be going to hell. About 2 billion people "believe" in Christ, then you have all the different denominations that fall under Christianity and some say that you have to follow their faith and others just pay lip-service to the religion but really do not follow the religion. You take them into account that should take out about half of that 2 billion number so that would leave about 5 billion people today going to hell.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Not that they haven't heard of it which I said in my earlier post but that they will be going to hell. About 2 billion people "believe" in Christ, then you have all the different denominations that fall under Christianity and some say that you have to follow their faith and others just pay lip-service to the religion but really do not follow the religion. You take them into account that should take out about half of that 2 billion number so that would leave about 5 billion people today going to hell.

If God were really that petty wouldn't only a single denomination of a single faith be making it to heaven? That would be far less than 20% of people.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If God were really that petty wouldn't only a single denomination of a single faith be making it to heaven? That would be far less than 20% of people. Yes it would, I was just being generous in my numbers.

True, but what's the problem? Without free will, life would be meaningless. We'd have zero freedom to act and think for ourselves. We'd be puppets with no intrinsic value. In other words, if God punished those while NOT having free will, such actions would be insane, not to mention scary!



We have free will; that's the beauty of it all! But that doesn't negate the fact that some actions come with consequences. Do the crime; do the time. God does not force people to steal TV sets or rape 12 year old girls. You simply must understand, you can't have life without free will -- the freedom to choose! God wants to give life, not take it away. People are responsible for their own actions, not God. Who are you fooling?



Because free will exists. Think about that for a moment.



Of course not, and either would God.



Free will is free will; don't confuse it with consequences.



Are you stipulating that Jesus -- being that God enjoys punishing people who didn't think or even know they did some thing wrong -- is punishment also?



First of all, free will is not a "contract." It is life -- freedom -- itself. God gave it to mankind because we have intrinsic value. God loves us. And free will is not "terminated." For better or worse, consequences are the end result of free will, but God did not force them.

Originally posted by ushomefree
True, but what's the problem? Without free will, life would be meaningless. We'd have zero freedom to act and think for ourselves. We'd be puppets with no intrinsic value. In other words, if God punished those while NOT having free will, such actions would be insane, not to mention scary!



We have free will; that's the beauty of it all! But that doesn't negate the fact that some actions come with consequences. Do the crime; do the time. God does not force people to steal TV sets or rape 12 year old girls. You simply must understand, you can't have life without free will -- the freedom to choose! God wants to give life, not take it away. People are responsible for their own actions, not God. Who are you fooling?



Because free will exists. Think about that for a moment.



Of course not, and either would God.



Free will is free will; don't confuse it with consequences.



Are you stipulating that Jesus -- being that God enjoys punishing people who didn't think or even know they did some thing wrong -- is punishment also?



First of all, free will is not a "contract." It is life -- freedom -- itself. God gave it to mankind because we have intrinsic value. God loves us. And free will is not "terminated." For better or worse, consequences are the end result of free will, but God did not force them. It is not free will, think about that for a moment.

How would God making us so that we believe in him have to deal with our choices of day to day life? You can still live where you want, marry the woman that you want and do the job that you want. You can see the movies, eat and do everything that you still do now but the only difference is that you believe in him. you can still follow the type of Christan faith but you still believe in God and Christ therefore you are not going to suffer for all time in Hell.

How about looking at it this way, just as a child is born the parents are responsible to teach them, show them how not to get hurt and teach them right from wrong. The child doesn't have its free will to make its own decisions until it has grown up and can make decisions for them selves. Parents just don't hand a book to a 1 year old and say this is all that you need to know now go out and be a good person, they personaly teach the child unlike what God has done for us. Now before you go and say that kids and adults are different, we are just 1 year olds compared to God.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
How about looking at it this way, just as a child is born the parents are responsible to teach them, show them how not to get hurt and teach them right from wrong. The child doesn't have its free will to make its own decisions until it has grown up and can make decisions for them selves. Parents just don't hand a book to a 1 year old and say this is all that you need to know now go out and be a good person, they personaly teach the child unlike what God has done for us. Now before you go and say that kids and adults are different, we are just 1 year olds compared to God.

We're not one year olds when it comes to reading comprehension, which is what important when you give someone a book.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Actually,
He sent you the prophets to lead you.
He sent his son to redeem you.
He sent the Holy Spirit to teach you.
He sent the Church to guide you.. 1. Prophets died a LONG time ago
2. Same as above
3. Never seen it
4. Full of corrupt and evil people that have twisted the words. The church is going by what was written thousand of years ago.

It would be like me teaching my kids something and expecting my teachings to be passed down for a century and expecting it not to be twisted or skewed along the way.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
1. Prophets died a LONG time ago
2. Same as above
3. Never seen it
4. Full of corrupt and evil people that have twisted the words. The church is going by what was written thousand of years ago.

It would be like me teaching my kids something and expecting my teachings to be passed down for a century and expecting it not to be twisted or skewed along the way.

Just because you reject the help that was offered...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Sort of how most parents treat their kids.

Doesn't that kind of tell you where the story came from, and not the absolutely infallible truth of the human idea of god?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Just because you reject the help that was offered... And what help was that? To be taken into a back room and be raped by a priest? I could do without that kind of help.

How did the prophets help me?
How did Jesus help me?
How did the Holy Spirit help me?
How id the church help me?

The answer is nothing, none of these things did anything that my parents couldn't do. My parents did more to teach me wrong and right, showed me how to be a good person more than any of them have ever done. If the church is an example of how "holy" these others are then they are doing a poor job at it and since I can't ask any of the others they are the only representatives of them.

Another way to look at this free will garbage is that God says that you can live your life and think how you want but there is only ONE right way to live your life. Now how is this free will if there is only one way? Why can I not be a good person, do not kill, steal and follow all the other commandments except follow God but still be condemned to hell for all time? I get 9/10 right but I'm still doomed, so basically it is live your life any way that you want but you are going to suffer for all time if you don't do it my way. Even man is not that cruel.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
And what help was that? To be taken into a back room and be raped by a priest? I could do without that kind of help.

How did the prophets help me?
How did Jesus help me?
How did the Holy Spirit help me?
How id the church help me?

The answer is nothing, none of these things did anything that my parents couldn't do. My parents did more to teach me wrong and right, showed me how to be a good person more than any of them have ever done. If the church is an example of how "holy" these others are then they are doing a poor job at it and since I can't ask any of the others they are the only representatives of them.

Another way to look at this free will garbage is that God says that you can live your life and think how you want but there is only ONE right way to live your life. Now how is this free will if there is only one way? Why can I not be a good person, do not kill, steal and follow all the other commandments except follow God but still be condemned to hell for all time? I get 9/10 right but I'm still doomed, so basically it is live your life any way that you want but you are going to suffer for all time if you don't do it my way. Even man is not that cruel.
You are looking at salvation like it is up to man to save himself by using his own "free will" to choose heaven or hell. This is the flaw of free will that leads so many people astray because they think that if they keep God's commands they will somehow earn eternal life. This idea of works righteousness is contradictory to the Bible and a huge flaw in modern mainstream Christianity.

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean , and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

It is impossible for us to earn our own salvation. Salvation is a gift from God to those He predetermined to go to heaven. We are all born into sin and are incapable of doing any good by ourselves. God gave us His law first of all to show us how sinful we are and to show us that we need a savior. Secondly God gave us the law so that believers could obey it through the Holy Spirit, not to earn salvation, but to show their gratitude to God for His grace on them.


John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."

Originally posted by Gannon
You are looking at salvation like it is up to man to save himself by using his own "free will" to choose heaven or hell. This is the flaw of free will that leads so many people astray because they think that if they keep God's commands they will somehow earn eternal life. This idea of works righteousness is contradictory to the Bible and a huge flaw in modern mainstream Christianity.

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean , and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

It is impossible for us to earn our own salvation. Salvation is a gift from God to those He predetermined to go to heaven. We are all born into sin and are incapable of doing any good by ourselves. God gave us His law first of all to show us how sinful we are and to show us that we need a savior. Secondly God gave us the law so that believers could obey it through the Holy Spirit, not to earn salvation, but to show their gratitude to God for His grace on them.


John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."

I always loved this stance.

Why not go crazy and have gay pedophilic murder orgies under the "salvation is predetermined" model?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I always loved this stance.

Why not go crazy and have gay pedophilic murder orgies under the "salvation is predetermined" model?

Even you have to accept why you include "gay" in the categories of pedophile and murderer.

Originally posted by Devil King
Even you have to accept why you include "gay" in the categories of pedophile and murderer.

It's something that evangelicals and fundamentalists feel is morally wrong. Based on the amount of time the spend on it rather than anything else in the Bible they must see it as at least as bad as murder. Pedophilia is just the icing on the dead sodomized baby cake.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It's something that evangelicals and fundamentalists feel is morally wrong. Based on the amount of time the spend on it rather than anything else in the Bible they must see it as at least as bad as murder. Pedophilia is just the icing on the dead sodomized baby cake.

Perhaps for the objectionable members of the demographic you have found yourself a part of, but what does it mean to you? Are you accepting, like Christ himself? Or are you one of those people who ignores the reality of Chirst's own words in the gospels in favor of being the hate monger that The Christ, himself, spent his entire life preaching against?

Originally posted by Devil King
Perhaps for the objectionable members of the demographic you have found yourself a part of, but what does it mean to you? Are you accepting, like Christ himself? Or are you one of those people who ignores the reality of Chirst's own words in the gospels in favor of being the hate monger that The Christ, himself, spent his entire life preaching against?

I rarely care what anyone does unless it effects me. And despite the quote in my sig (which is from a great country song about how his faith is one of acceptance not rejection) I'm not a Christian, just raised as one from 5 to 15.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I rarely care what anyone does unless it effects me. And despite the quote in my sig (which is from a great country song about how his faith is one of acceptance not rejection) I'm not a Christian, just raised as one from 5 to 15.

No human being cares, realistically, unless it effects them. I applaud your willingness to be a chiristian in faith and not a christian is name only. We would all like to put the words of "God" or "Jesus" or Duh! Reality!" into effect. I'm sure this is why you have supported Democrats for the last 7 months. But it goes further than that. I'm sure you understand that. Love of God and patriotism aren't subservient or seperate to the idea of an intelligent understanding of god who is capable of evolving with time. I have an idea or reality and faith, not one of which is observed, recognized or understood by the majority of those who make the rules. However, I appreciate the possibliity of that existing in a world that might exist without me or anyone else. I'm not arrogant enough to assume I'm the only one to figure this all out, or my corner of it, simply because I ascribe to an idea of certainty in my interpretation of the afterlife.

I was raised as one from .10 to 16. After that, I said: Hold Up! Something isn't Kosher, here!"

Originally posted by Gannon
You are looking at salvation like it is up to man to save himself by using his own "free will" to choose heaven or hell. This is the flaw of free will that leads so many people astray because they think that if they keep God's commands they will somehow earn eternal life. This idea of works righteousness is contradictory to the Bible and a huge flaw in modern mainstream Christianity.

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean , and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

It is impossible for us to earn our own salvation. Salvation is a gift from God to those He predetermined to go to heaven. We are all born into sin and are incapable of doing any good by ourselves. God gave us His law first of all to show us how sinful we are and to show us that we need a savior. Secondly God gave us the law so that believers could obey it through the Holy Spirit, not to earn salvation, but to show their gratitude to God for His grace on them.


John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth." First of all the whole concept of free will in the eyes of God is laughable because there is no free will when you are dealing with an all seeing, all knowing being. He would all ready know what you will do before you do it. The other notion that you are guilt until proven innocent concept with God is crazy, how come we must prove ourselves to a being that already knows us better than we would ever know ourselves? God doesn't answer all of our prayers because he knows what is best for us and what we truly need so that mean that he knows more about us then we do, therefore he would know if we are worthy to go to heaven long before we were ever born, after all did he not create us and put our souls in our bodies?

So do you believe in Calvinism, it sounds like it since you say that certain people are already predetermined to go to heaven. So I guess it doesn't make a bit of difference if I believe or not because God has already decided what is going to happen to me which makes more scene with the concept of an all seeing god.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I always loved this stance.

Why not go crazy and have gay pedophilic murder orgies under the "salvation is predetermined" model?
Because God saves his people from sin unto good works. It wouldn't make sense for God to save people so that they could continue in sin.

Most people think that doing good works is a way to earn salvation. However this is impossible because we are completely sinful and incapable of doing any good without God. After being born again our motivation to do good works is not to earn salvation, because Jesus already did that for us on the cross, but we do good works out of thankfulness to God for our salvation. Only through the work of the Holy Spirit can we do good works.


Originally posted by Da Pittman
First of all the whole concept of free will in the eyes of God is laughable because there is no free will when you are dealing with an all seeing, all knowing being. He would all ready know what you will do before you do it. The other notion that you are guilt until proven innocent concept with God is crazy, how come we must prove ourselves to a being that already knows us better than we would ever know ourselves? God doesn't answer all of our prayers because he knows what is best for us and what we truly need so that mean that he knows more about us then we do, therefore he would know if we are worthy to go to heaven long before we were ever born, after all did he not create us and put our souls in our bodies?

So do you believe in Calvinism, it sounds like it since you say that certain people are already predetermined to go to heaven. So I guess it doesn't make a bit of difference if I believe or not because God has already decided what is going to happen to me which makes more scene with the concept of an all seeing god.
Yes, God is sovereign meaning He is in complete control of every aspect of all creation. Everything that happens is according to His perfect will. The purpose of all that happens is to display God's attributes. He elects some people for heaven to display His love and grace and some for hell to display His perfect wrath.

There are two aspects of free will:
1. A free will to do whatever you want without any outside force imposing on that will. This is the free will that only God has.

or

2. A will freed from the bonds of sin to do good only through God's grace. This is the free will that we receive after being born again.

Originally posted by Gannon
Because God saves his people from sin unto good works. It wouldn't make sense for God to save people so that they could continue in sin.

Most people think that doing good works is a way to earn salvation. However this is impossible because we are completely sinful and incapable of doing any good without God. After being born again our motivation to do good works is not to earn salvation, because Jesus already did that for us on the cross, but we do good works out of thankfulness to God for our salvation. Only through the work of the Holy Spirit can we do good works.

But nothing that we do effects salvation. There's no reason (except some idiotic concept of altruism) to do anything good or avoid doing anything evil in your system. God is irrelevant if salvation is predetermined so why believe?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But nothing that we do effects salvation. There's no reason (except some idiotic concept of altruism) to do anything good or avoid doing anything evil in your system. God is irrelevant if salvation is predetermined so why believe? Salvation is not of our own merit but of the grace of God. God gives us grace by doing good works through Him. The reason we do good works isn't to earn salvation but to glorify God for His grace to us through Jesus.


Ephesians 2 This is directed towards His church:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Originally posted by Gannon
Because God saves his people from sin unto good works. It wouldn't make sense for God to save people so that they could continue in sin.

Most people think that doing good works is a way to earn salvation. However this is impossible because we are completely sinful and incapable of doing any good without God. After being born again our motivation to do good works is not to earn salvation, because Jesus already did that for us on the cross, but we do good works out of thankfulness to God for our salvation. Only through the work of the Holy Spirit can we do good works.



Yes, God is sovereign meaning He is in complete control of every aspect of all creation. Everything that happens is according to His perfect will. The purpose of all that happens is to display God's attributes. He elects some people for heaven to display His love and grace and some for hell to display His perfect wrath.

There are two aspects of free will:
1. A free will to do whatever you want without any outside force imposing on that will. This is the free will that only God has.

or

2. A will freed from the bonds of sin to do good only through God's grace. This is the free will that we receive after being born again. Then it doesn't make a bit of difference what I do because God has already elected who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. So free will doesn't even come into play on this, also what you described is not free will and you say that only born again Christan's have free will which is something I have never heard but that all of his creations have free will. You seem to have a very different take on this. You sound like a born again Christan but seem to view it as a Calvinist.

Originally posted by Gannon
Salvation is not of our own merit but of the grace of God. God gives us grace by doing good works through Him. The reason we do good works isn't to earn salvation but to glorify God for His grace to us through Jesus.


Ephesians 2 This is directed towards His church:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Why not be a secular humanist or something equally disgusting?

Originally posted by Gannon
Salvation is not of our own merit but of the grace of God. God gives us grace by doing good works through Him.

So god sits around taking credit for all the good things we do? Sounds like a sweet deal for an all powerful being.

God does not "deal" with our daily decisions, but "permits." Hence, free will.



Correct! But a Christian has repented; they no longer live a sinful life in "denial." Christians understand the nature sin and want nothing to do with it. Christians wish to serve God and live by His laws. Christians do this out of love. Christians understand that God is everything, and without Him, nothing matters. "Oh my Lord Jesus Christ... please forgive me," is the end result. Christians have free will. Christians "choose" to live a Godly life. Others live in denial and/or pride, chasing instant gratification.



Morality is not taught; parents only help influence and/or direct healthy habits -- social norms. Hence, culture! Gangbangers and Priests are fully aware of God's laws, despite parenting "habits!" Morality is written in our hearts -- our very being. We are made in the image of God (knowing right from wrong). Otherwise, God's punishment is unjust.



Incorrect. Children do have free will! But children are not held accountable. Children are in the process of developing mentally and physically. God's judgement is fair.



I certainly hope not, ha ha!



Not true. Again, God's laws are written in our hearts, and that is why so many people reject God. They live in denial and/or pride. We are made in the image of God; we instinctively understand right from wrong. Such is not taught.



Sure... in terms of power, intelligence and beauty.

Originally posted by ushomefree
God does not "deal" with our daily decisions, but "permits." Hence, free will.



Correct! But a Christian has repented; they no longer live a sinful life in "denial." Christians understand the nature sin and want nothing to do with it. Christians wish to serve God and live by His laws. Christians do this out of love. Christians understand that God is everything, and without Him, nothing matters. "Oh my Lord Jesus Christ... please forgive me," is the end result. Christians have free will. Christians "choose" to live a Godly life. Others live in denial and/or pride, chasing instant gratification.



Morality is not taught; parents only help influence and/or direct healthy habits -- social norms. Hence, culture! Gangbangers and Priests are fully aware of God's laws, despite parenting "habits!" Morality is written in our hearts -- our very being. We are made in the image of God (knowing right from wrong). Otherwise, God's punishment is unjust.



Incorrect. Children do have free will! But children are not held accountable. Children are in the process of developing mentally and physically. God's judgement is fair.



I certainly hope not, ha ha!



Not true. Again, God's laws are written in our hearts, and that is why so many people reject God. They live in denial and/or pride. We are made in the image of God; we instinctively understand right from wrong. Such is not taught.



Sure... in terms of power, intelligence and beauty. OK a lot of words that say absolutely nothing. You are all over the board in your responses I don't even feel like trying to go there.

Just some things, morality IS taught plain and simple.

Da Pittman... help me understand. Let me ask you a question: Have you ever been wronged, in your life? I know you have, but explain, please. Why did you feel as if you'd been "wronged"?

Originally posted by ushomefree
Da Pittman... help me understand. Let me ask you a question: Have you ever been wronged, in your life? I know you have, but explain, please. Why did you feel as if you'd been "wronged"? ??? What does this have to do with anything? How about you say what is on your mind instead of trying to ask a loaded question, I really hate that sometimes but I must admit that I do it as well sometimes mostly because I think that person is a moron. Do you think that I'm a moron?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
??? What does this have to do with anything? How about you say what is on your mind instead of trying to ask a loaded question, I really hate that sometimes but I must admit that I do it as well sometimes mostly because I think that person is a moron. Do you think that I'm a moron?

Do you have to ask?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Do you have to ask? You want to start something guitar boy

Originally posted by Da Pittman
You want to start something guitar boy

"God is a kid with an ant-farm"

I love that quote

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Nor does free will, in the Christian sense. Problem further solved.

Foreknowledge had no influence on their fault,
Which had no less prov'd certain unforeknown