ANH Vader Vs Darth Malak

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laser7455
Who wins here?

1.Sabers
2.Force
3.All out

Location-Geonosis where Dooku fought Obi-Wan & Anakin

Master Crimzon
Vader, in all three.

Mizukage Yoda
Malak is an unknown, so obviously Vader, but if I was just basing this on opinion Malak stomps

Fan Skywalker
Vader wins all three especially since malak has no SF to keep healing himself.

Hewhoknowsall
I don't know that much about Malak, but is he from KOTOR or something?

Lord Knightfa11
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I don't know that much about Malak, but is he from KOTOR or something? http://www.math.sk/bacigal/homepage/foto/relax/google_dumbQ.gif

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
http://www.math.sk/bacigal/homepage/foto/relax/google_dumbQ.gif

Sorry...

Lord Knightfa11
its cool mate i've just wanted to use that picture for a long time.

Lucien A
I would like it if Malak won, but Vader.

laser7455
I will say Vader wins all 3.

S_W_LeGenD
The ANH Vader wasn't as impressive as some think.

An aged Obi-Wan was able to stalemate him in a duel.

It is a false notion that Malak needed Star Forge to accomplish victories in difficult fights. Malak was a skilled swordsman and a powerful Force user during his reign as a Dark Lord. He managed to defeat 3 major enemies in a 3 on 1 combat scenario on the Leviathan and his victory shows that he was capable of accomplishing great feats even without any external help.

A large of Sith stationed on the Leviathan failed to stop those 3 agents of the Republic from trying to reach the hangers of the Cruiser and suffered heavy casualties in the process. However, when they faced the Dark Lord, despite being in an advantageous position, they lost and one got captured in the end.

Malak will be able to defeat the ANH incarnation of Vader in most situations.

Lord Knightfa11
there is your problem, obi-wan wasn't aged, and the spectacle of the fight doesn't say much for its consistency. Obi wan has the 20 strikes per second defense and is a very formidable warrior. I don't think being stalemated by him is necessarily a bad thing.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
there is your problem, obi-wan wasn't aged, and the spectacle of the fight doesn't say much for its consistency. Obi wan has the 20 strikes per second defense and is a very formidable warrior. I don't think being stalemated by him is necessarily a bad thing.
Actually the problem lies with you.

Do you even know that how old was Obi-Wan during the events of the ANH? This is the time when Luke Skywalker showed up on the scene as a hero. The aged Obi-Wan (also known as "Ben Kenobi"wink was experienced but was no way near as powerful as he was during the events of ROTS. In those days he was at his peak and even managed to defeat an enraged but powerful Vader in a fierce duel.

The duel that took place on the Death Star I between an aged Obi-Wan and Vader still resulted in a stalemate.

Gideon
Have you played the Force Unleashed?

Vader dismantles Malak and ships his remains back to Palpatine for study.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The ANH Vader wasn't as impressive as some think.

An aged Obi-Wan was able to stalemate him in a duel.
An aged Yoda was able to tool a bajillion battle droids. Age has very little effect on force users.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is a false notion that Malak needed Star Forge to accomplish victories in difficult fights. Malak was a skilled swordsman and a powerful Force user during his reign as a Dark Lord. He managed to defeat 3 major enemies in a 3 on 1 combat scenario on the Leviathan and his victory shows that he was capable of accomplishing great feats even without any external help.
Actually, the cutscene shows that only Revan fought Malak on the Leviathan, and then Bastilla fought him alone. Carth was a non-combatant, and Revan and Bastilla never got to attack him together. So there goes that. Do you have any other proof that Malak was a "Skilled swordsman" or "powerful Force user?"

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

A large of Sith stationed on the Leviathan failed to stop those 3 agents of the Republic from trying to reach the hangers of the Cruiser and suffered heavy casualties in the process. However, when they faced the Dark Lord, despite being in an advantageous position, they lost and one got captured in the end.
What advantageous situation? They were shocked and afraid (Bastilla thought they were "no match" for Malak) at his presence, and Revan was reeling from the revelation that Bastilla and the Council had lied to him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Malak will be able to defeat the ANH incarnation of Vader in most situations.
I can make baseless assertions too! Vader will be able to defeat the KotOR incarnation of Malak in most situations.

I can back this up though: Vader has shown incredible agility- dodging a lightsaber while unarmed, and has awe-inspiring TK feats.

Captain REX
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
http://www.math.sk/bacigal/homepage/foto/relax/google_dumbQ.gif

How many times have we asked not to post pictures to insult members?

I am giving you an official warning. Please end it.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
An aged Yoda was able to tool a bajillion battle droids. Age has very little effect on force users.
Master Yoda was very powerful, as he had a very strong connection with the Force. If Master Kenobi (who according to Master Yoda was no match for the Emperor even when he was at his peak during the events of ROTS) would be as powerful as Yoda, than you would have a point but unfortunately this was not the case.

However the age factor can make an impact on the performance of the Force Users. The aged Force Users can get tired more quickly than the younger ones and most importantly none have endless supplies of energies to keep them going.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Actually, the cutscene shows that only Revan fought Malak on the Leviathan, and then Bastilla fought him alone. Carth was a non-combatant, and Revan and Bastilla never got to attack him together. So there goes that.
Dude! Malak never let his enemies to attack him with co-ordination. He put two agents (namely: Bastilla Shan and Carth Onasi) on the stasis through the Force and than went one-on-one with the 3rd agent (The famous Revan) and was about to win until Bastilla Shan somehow managed to step in and attacked the Dark Lord. Malak than subdued Bastilla Shan relatively quickly, while the other two agents retreated to their destination.

And Carth Onasi wasn't a "non-combatant." He was a skilled soldier and was armed with high-tech weaponry. But the skills of the Dark Lord were too great for him and most others.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Do you have any other proof that Malak was a "Skilled swordsman" or "powerful Force user?"
An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support.

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

Darth Malak is a straightforward lightsaber combatant. True to his character, his abilities and powers focus on attacking his enemies head on. His high Defense and Attack scores enable him take on strong opponents, and he can increase his damage through Sith Rage when desired.

Source: Champions of the Force

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
What advantageous situation? They were shocked and afraid (Bastilla thought they were "no match" for Malak) at his presence, and Revan was reeling from the revelation that Bastilla and the Council had lied to him.
First of all, it was a 3 vs 1 fighting scenario, so you do the math.

Secondly, Bastilla wasn't afraid in the sense that if she would have to face the Dark Lord, she would surrender without a fight but she asserted that "Revan would be no match for the Dark Lord." However Revan was brave and even after the revelation, managed to give Malak some fight. But the powers of the Dark Lord were such that he never allowed the agents to co-ordinate during the duel and the credit actually goes to him.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I can make baseless assertions too! Vader will be able to defeat the KotOR incarnation of Malak in most situations.

I can back this up though: Vader has shown incredible agility- dodging a lightsaber while unarmed, and has awe-inspiring TK feats.
Baseless? I am trying to be open-minded.

Malak was also a master practitioner of Force Lightning, which is one of the techniques to which Vader is highly vulnerable. He could perform even Chain Lightning attacks. Most importantly, the intensity of his Lightning was such that it could engulf an entire person as he showed by torturing Bastilla Shan. He was strong in the Force and could handle multiple opponents simultaneously, even when they would be Force Users. He was no joke.

Lord Knightfa11
Originally posted by Captain REX
How many times have we asked not to post pictures to insult members?

I am giving you an official warning. Please end it. 1, the pictures are innocent, and not insulting in the least.
2. him and me are cool.

GenomeFrozener
I can Malak wining.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Master Yoda was very powerful, as he had a very strong connection with the Force. If Master Kenobi (who according to Master Yoda was no match for the Emperor even when he was at his peak during the events of ROTS) would be as powerful as Yoda, than you would have a point but unfortunately this was not the case.


However the age factor can make an impact on the performance of the Force Users. The aged Force Users can get tired more quickly than the younger ones and most importantly none have endless supplies of energies to keep them going.

If you read the fight in Death Star you'll see that Kenobi never stood a chance at winning so i wouldn't call the fight a stalemate. It went something like this: obiwan attacked, vader easily blocked his shots, then vader decided to go on the offensive and after a short while vader felt the energy shift in his favor, from then on the fight only gets worse for obi wan until he died.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Dude! Malak never let his enemies to attack him with co-ordination. He put two agents (namely: Bastilla Shan and Carth Onasi) on the stasis through the Force and than went one-on-one with the 3rd agent (The famous Revan) and was about to win until Bastilla Shan somehow managed to step in and attacked the Dark Lord. Malak than subdued Bastilla Shan relatively quickly, while the other two agents retreated to their destination.

And Carth Onasi wasn't a "non-combatant." He was a skilled soldier and was armed with high-tech weaponry. But the skills of the Dark Lord were too great for him and most others.

Yes malak was about to win........ against a weaker revan, as for carth all he did was get force pushed and then he get frozen by malak with the force no way you could call that a combatant



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support.

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

Do you really think that malak and his "devastating dark side power"= 80% of the emperor

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Darth Malak is a straightforward lightsaber combatant. True to his character, his abilities and powers focus on attacking his enemies head on. His high Defense and Attack scores enable him take on strong opponents, and he can increase his damage through Sith Rage when desired.

Source: Champions of the Force

excuse me sir but is that last part sounds like it's gameplay, is it?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

First of all, it was a 3 vs 1 fighting scenario, so you do the math.

Secondly, Bastilla wasn't afraid in the sense that if she would have to face the Dark Lord, she would surrender without a fight but she asserted that "Revan would be no match for the Dark Lord." However Revan was brave and even after the revelation, managed to give Malak some fight. But the powers of the Dark Lord were such that he never allowed the agents to co-ordinate during the duel and the credit actually goes to him.

Just saw the scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLjd0XNsa4A) and while malak was smart for not letting his opponents coordinate he never actually fought 3 vs 1 while vader has fought 2 vs 1, 7 vs 1, and 8 vs 1 (although to be fair he killed only 4 of those 8)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Baseless? I am trying to be open-minded.

Malak was also a master practitioner of Force Lightning, which is one of the techniques to which Vader is highly vulnerable. He could perform even Chain Lightning attacks. Most importantly, the intensity of his Lightning was such that it could engulf an entire person as he showed by torturing Bastilla Shan. He was strong in the Force and could handle multiple opponents simultaneously, even when they would be Force Users. He was no joke.

In the all out Vader can use his lightsaber to block the lightning.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support.

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

How can this quote come from the dark side sourcebook which was made in 2001 while Malak who is featured in the kotor game came out in 2003? You got some explaining to Legend.

EDIT: I found your real source http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031009malak it is an article called Darth Malak:An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, it is written by an rpg author, and btw the passage you quoted has nothing to do with the DSS which has this: * symbol next to do it in the article. Besides there probably are a lot people with similar quotes to this.


Why are you quoting the (wizards of the coast) SW miniatures game, it sounds to be nothing more stats which by the sound like it can fit a wide range of sith.

Elite Hunter
Sorry for the double post but I ran out of editing time. Both of SW Legend's sources Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars Miniatures: Champions of the Force are second rate sources at best if they are even considered canon. I am aware that I link I posted doesn't work to well but I was on it before and if I recall correctly the rpg author(Cory Herndon) can't even get the story of Malak's betrayal of Revan correct, I think he says that Malak was enraged by his master's death) then the next part of legends quote from the Malak article tries to compare Malak to Exar Kun and Freddon Nadd.

Step up your game Legend.

My take on the fight is Vader wins a saber duel, Malak takes the force and Vader wins an all out fight with great difficulty.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
If you read the fight in Death Star you'll see that Kenobi never stood a chance at winning so i wouldn't call the fight a stalemate. It went something like this: obiwan attacked, vader easily blocked his shots, then vader decided to go on the offensive and after a short while vader felt the energy shift in his favor, from then on the fight only gets worse for obi wan until he died.
I do not need to read about the fight that took place between the aged Obi-Wan and Darth Vader on the Death Star. I have the movie (G-Canon material) to use as a source. Throughout the duel, neither the aged Obi-Wan and nor the Darth Vader was gaining any advantage. However for some reason, Obi-Wan let his guard down and allowed the Sith Lord to strike.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Yes malak was about to win........ against a weaker revan, as for carth all he did was get force pushed and then he get frozen by malak with the force no way you could call that a combatant
Using the term "weaker Revan" is an easy way to dispel the credibility of Malak' combat prowess. Revan wasn't weak and had great potential, but the problem was that the training imparted by the Jedi Council was not enough to match the abilities of the Dark Lord in question. Revan realized this and after the duel did following:

1) Learned to control his emotions (A trait mostly observed in wise and powerful Jedi including Yoda and Luke Skywalker)
2) Proceeded to get trained in the ways of the Sith as well on a Sith world called Korriban, so he studied both aspects of the Force and not just relied on the training of the Jedi. (As the most powerful Dark Lord in history - Darth Sidious once said that to achieve greatness, one should study both aspects of the Force.)

And as far as Carth was concerned, he did posed a threat as he was armed with high-tech weapons and was a skilled soldier. He could shoot at Malak with his guns but the Dark Lord knew that if he had to concentrate on defeating the Jedi, he should take care of this problem and so he never allowed Carth to attack him through his powers during the course of the duel, while cocentrating on defeating the Jedi, which is impressive.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Do you really think that malak and his "devastating dark side power"= 80% of the emperor
We do not know but the terms like "devastating dark side power" do indicate that the Sith Lord in question would be very powerful.

And using random statistics is not a good way to judge the over-all combat prowess of the Dark Lord. We should also look at the weaknesses of the character in question. By Sith Lord standards, Malak was almost perfect.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
excuse me sir but is that last part sounds like it's gameplay, is it?
Darth Malak was introduced as a character in the Star Wars Universe in an RPG game. His combat abilities have been described using the KOTOR game (C-Canon material) as a source and by authors who have a history of writing canon materials for Star Wars including: Draw Karpyshyn and Cory Herndon. So all the information revealed regarding his combat abilities are canon and officially recognized.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Just saw the scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLjd0XNsa4A) and while malak was smart for not letting his opponents coordinate he never actually fought 3 vs 1 while vader has fought 2 vs 1, 7 vs 1, and 8 vs 1 (although to be fair he killed only 4 of those 8)
Malak has faced multiple opponents simultaneously on not just one but several occassions. The point that you did not get is that in all those cases, his opponents would have co-ordinated their efforts to bring down the Dark Lord, but the powers and talents of Malak were such that he never allowed his opponents to co-ordinate and won even when being outnumbered.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
In the all out Vader can use his lightsaber to block the lightning.
This form of defence is not always reliable. A powerful burst of Force Lightning cannot be successfully stopped by a single Light Saber. Malak was so well versed in Lightning that he could engulf an entire person with it, if he wanted to (check the torturing scene of Bastilla Shan to get an idea). He could use both of his hands to form multiple arcs of lightining and if even a single arc manages to touch the mechanical parts of the Vader, he would be in serious trouble. The all out fight can go both ways but still Malak has an over-all edge and can do better.

Fan Skywalker
Edit: sorry guys accidently pressed enter (which posted the reply before i was done) ignore and go on to my next post

Fan Skywalker
Same excuse my triple post in advance

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Sorry for the double post but I ran out of editing time. Both of SW Legend's sources Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars Miniatures: Champions of the Force are second rate sources at best if they are even considered canon. I am aware that I link I posted doesn't work to well but I was on it before and if I recall correctly the rpg author(Cory Herndon) can't even get the story of Malak's betrayal of Revan correct, I think he says that Malak was enraged by his master's death) then the next part of legends quote from the Malak article tries to compare Malak to Exar Kun and Freddon Nadd.
Minor inconsistencies can be expected from the information provided by different authors regarding a same character. Since you are not new to Star Wars literature, this won't be much of an issue for you to deal with.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
My take on the fight is Vader wins a saber duel,
This is questionable, specially when we are talking about Mechanical Vader. While he was still a good duelist, Malak would be far more acrobatic in his moves during a Light Saber duel. His dueling style is also unique and involves elements of Juyo (as Drew Karpyshyn once revealed to me) and his Light Saber also has a longer hilt than standard ones, thus providing him higher chances to hit his opponents. An enraged ROTJ Luke proved to be a good match for Vader in a duel and Malak can surely do better. If this was ROTS Vader, than you would have a point.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Malak takes the force and Vader wins an all out fight with great difficulty.
Malak can defeat Mechanical Vader in an all out fight. He has an over-all edge in combative abilities in this case.

Autokrat
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Sorry for the double post but I ran out of editing time. Both of SW Legend's sources Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars Miniatures: Champions of the Force are second rate sources at best if they are even considered canon. I am aware that I link I posted doesn't work to well but I was on it before and if I recall correctly the rpg author(Cory Herndon) can't even get the story of Malak's betrayal of Revan correct, I think he says that Malak was enraged by his master's death) then the next part of legends quote from the Malak article tries to compare Malak to Exar Kun and Freddon Nadd.

Step up your game Legend.

My take on the fight is Vader wins a saber duel, Malak takes the force and Vader wins an all out fight with great difficulty.

The sourcebooks produced by WoC are actually canon; however, Legend is using a rather outdated one. There is in fact a Kotor Sourcebook with updated canon in it.

Gideon
LeGenD, you do realize that you haven't made anything approaching a viable argument for Malak, right? That he is able to "take on strong opponents" and "strike fear into his former allies" doesn't translate to anything remarkable or relevant here. Vader isn't just a strong opponent nor is he a former ally of Malak's.

The Force Unleashed depicts Vader making use of a vast strength in the Force, collapsing gigantic structures "as strong as durasteel" rather casually, telekinetically hurling tremendous stone tablets effortlessly, kicking the shit out of Starkiller, casually overpowering a dueling droid designed to mimic fabled Jedi and Sith swordsmen -- a younger Obi-Wan Kenobi in fact. Rise of Darth Vader shows him embarrass a group of renegade Jedi in combat by adopting attacks and methods from all seven modes of Jedi combat, dismantling a bridge and using it as a telekinetic storm to disarm and defeat Roan Shryne, In His Image shows him defeat seven dark Jedi in combat, cloned from a powerful Emperor's Hand.

I want feats that suggest Malak can do the same.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not need to read about the fight that took place between the aged Obi-Wan and Darth Vader on the Death Star. I have the movie (G-Canon material) to use as a source. Throughout the duel, neither the aged Obi-Wan and nor the Darth Vader was gaining any advantage. However for some reason, Obi-Wan let his guard down and allowed the Sith Lord to strike.

Death Star shows us the fight with more details and does not contradict the movies therefore it is canon too. In a lightsaber duel it often doesn't look like one side is gaining the advantage unless one side is retreating as obi wan was.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Using the term "weaker Revan" is an easy way to dispel the credibility of Malak' combat prowess. Revan wasn't weak and had great potential, but the problem was that the training imparted by the Jedi Council was not enough to match the abilities of the Dark Lord in question. Revan realized this and after the duel did following:

1) Learned to control his emotions (A trait mostly observed in wise and powerful Jedi including Yoda and Luke Skywalker)
2) Proceeded to get trained in the ways of the Sith as well on a Sith world called Korriban, so he studied both aspects of the Force and not just relied on the training of the Jedi. (As the most powerful Dark Lord in history - Darth Sidious once said that to achieve greatness, one should study both aspects of the Force.)

And as far as Carth was concerned, he did posed a threat as he was armed with high-tech weapons and was a skilled soldier. He could shoot at Malak with his guns but the Dark Lord knew that if he had to concentrate on defeating the Jedi, he should take care of this problem and so he never allowed Carth to attack him through his powers during the course of the duel, while cocentrating on defeating the Jedi, which is impressive.

Like you said revan loss due to insufficient training- making his defeat by malak unimpressive. As for Carth he isn't force sensitive it doesn't take much to hold him down and yes he was fighting but it was a weaker revan.





Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

We do not know but the terms like "devastating dark side power" do indicate that the Sith Lord in question would be very powerful.

And using random statistics is not a good way to judge the over-all combat prowess of the Dark Lord. We should also look at the weaknesses of the character in question. By Sith Lord standards, Malak was almost perfect.


"Devastating dark side power" is pretty vague it does indicate that malak is poweful but being powerful is not enough to beat vader. I wouldn't say that malak is almost perfect considering that he took a good cheapshot at his master and didn't even do that right. And to top it off he owes his success to what his master built.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Darth Malak was introduced as a character in the Star Wars Universe in an RPG game. His combat abilities have been described using the KOTOR game (C-Canon material) as a source and by authors who have a history of writing canon materials for Star Wars including: Draw Karpyshyn and Cory Herndon. So all the information revealed regarding his combat abilities are canon and officially recognized.

it sounds like the quotes you gave us were written for gameplay purposes...but if you say so.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Malak has faced multiple opponents simultaneously on not just one but several occassions. The point that you did not get is that in all those cases, his opponents would have co-ordinated their efforts to bring down the Dark Lord, but the powers and talents of Malak were such that he never allowed his opponents to co-ordinate and won even when being outnumbered.

Could you provide these other occasions where he fought multiple opponents to provide some context.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This form of defence is not always reliable. A powerful burst of Force Lightning cannot be successfully stopped by a single Light Saber. Malak was so well versed in Lightning that he could engulf an entire person with it, if he wanted to (check the torturing scene of Bastilla Shan to get an idea). He could use both of his hands to form multiple arcs of lightining and if even a single arc manages to touch the mechanical parts of the Vader, he would be in serious trouble. The all out fight can go both ways but still Malak has an over-all edge and can do better.

Vader tanked strakiller's lightning who's lightning could bring down an at st. And if overcoming a lightsaber with lightning was just a matter of using two hands to cause many arcs then then everyone would have done that to those who try the saber defense. Engulfing someone in in lightning isn't very impressive seeing how wide lightning can be.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This is questionable, specially when we are talking about Mechanical Vader. While he was still a good duelist, Malak would be far more acrobatic in his moves during a Light Saber duel. His dueling style is also unique and involves elements of Juyo (as Drew Karpyshyn once revealed to me) and his Light Saber also has a longer hilt than standard ones, thus providing him higher chances to hit his opponents. An enraged ROTJ Luke proved to be a good match for Vader in a duel and Malak can surely do better. If this was ROTS Vader, than you would have a point.]

Vader has often defeated quicker opponents like Aurra Sing who he owned speed wise. Vader's dueling style is also unique
and used elements from every style of combat- lets also not forget that starkiller used Juyo guess who could have taught him that. Malak's lightsaber's length advantage is voided by the fact that Vader's lightsaber is also longer then average. Luke would disagree with you in this quote: And there was a further matter. In his battles with Darth Vader and the Emperor, Luke felt he had never truly tested his powers to the limits. Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive. Yet Luke had no illusions that Gethzerion would be so lenient.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Minor inconsistencies can be expected from the information provided by different authors regarding a same character. Since you are not new to Star Wars literature, this won't be much of an issue for you to deal with.

Though Revan was the master to Malak's apprentice, the senior Sith Lord soon fell to treachery. Enraged by the death of his master, Darth Malak declared himself the Dark Lord of the Sith and renewed his campaign of hatred and bloodshed. I wouldn't call getting the betrayal of Darth Revan and Malak's ascension to DLOTS to be a minor inconsistency. All he says is that Revan fell to treachery no mention of Malak's role and he says that Malak was enraged by it, which is obviously not true.

But as AutoKrat said the source is very pretty outdated and btw quotes like devastating Dark Side power and struck terror into the hearts of his former allies are not that hard to come by, the first paragraph of Darth Vader's bio in the databank, Vader was called the scourge of the Jedi, a master of the dark side of the Force. You need more to back it up then a quote.



I'll let the others make an argument for Vader since I haven't read RODV or TFU yet. But I'm going to need more proof then you passing on Drew's words with nothing to back them not that it matter because as Gideon stated Vader used attacks/methods from all forms of lightsaber combat. Also what evidence is there that a 2 meter or a 6.5 foot Malak would all that acrobatic, I'm willing to bet that some of the jedi Vader has fought have been a lot more acrobatic then Malak.


Fanskywalker already gave you the quote from "The Courtship of Princess Leia," but the ROTJ novel states that from the very begining of the duel on the death star, that Luke was using his anger (darkside) for the first half of the duel including the scene where Vader was kicked down the steps, all the while he was trying to kill Luke. Then Luke went apeshit using the DS and his raw power(much greater then Malak's) in the last part of the duel and caught Vader completely off guard.

Also an enraged Obiwan put a better duel when using the dark side vs Darth Maul then Anoon Bondara does that make TPM Obiwan>Anoon? No.

Originally posted by Autokrat
The sourcebooks produced by WoC are actually canon; however, Legend is using a rather outdated one. There is in fact a Kotor Sourcebook with updated canon in it.
As far as I'm aware the article Legend used is not in a source book and are you referring to the kotor campaign guide that recently came out?

Autokrat
Originally posted by Elite Hunter

As far as I'm aware the article Legend used is not in a source book and are you referring to the kotor campaign guide that recently came out?

Yes, that's what I was referring to.

Schwarzenegger
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Malak will be able to defeat the ANH incarnation of Vader in most situations. You DO know that just a year or 2 prior to ANH that vader was toppling massive structures "as durable as steel" with relative ease, ragdolling a jedi knight, tanked lightning that destroyed an ATAT, casually choking and pwning a jedi that was able to rip part of a space station apart and send the entire space station into critical condition, survive a telekinetic storm that SK used to defeat him, survive a blast that destroyed part of the death star as well as being able to nearly throttle and kill starkiller before he achieved his clarity and kick vaders ass.

And don't try to argue that malak will beat him in a saber duel simply because he is "more acrobatic", apparantly you had never read crimson empire or read TFU in which he neary kills starkiller in their final duel despite SK being far more agile and acrobatic than malak ever was.

I'm back btw after a 30 day ban.

BTW what even suggested that both vader and obiwan were going all out in the death star? For one look at the size of the area they were dueling in, neither one of them would want to perform acrobatic moves without the risk of getting cleaved in half(considering thats what happened to vader in ROTS). Talk about vaders "ub3r tk" not being utilised in ANH, well was there anything he could grab and chunk at obi wan? All i saw was an empty hall way.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
You DO know that just a year or 2 prior to ANH that vader was toppling massive structures "as durable as steel" with relative ease, ragdolling a jedi knight, tanked lightning that destroyed an ATAT, casually choking and pwning a jedi that was able to rip part of a space station apart and send the entire space station into critical condition, survive a telekinetic storm that SK used to defeat him, survive a blast that destroyed part of the death star as well as being able to nearly throttle and kill starkiller before he achieved his clarity and kick vaders ass.

And don't try to argue that malak will beat him in a saber duel simply because he is "more acrobatic", apparantly you had never read crimson empire or read TFU in which he neary kills starkiller in their final duel despite SK being far more agile and acrobatic than malak ever was.

I'm back btw after a 30 day ban.

BTW what even suggested that both vader and obiwan were going all out in the death star? For one look at the size of the area they were dueling in, neither one of them would want to perform acrobatic moves without the risk of getting cleaved in half(considering thats what happened to vader in ROTS). Talk about vaders "ub3r tk" not being utilised in ANH, well was there anything he could grab and chunk at obi wan? All i saw was an empty hall way.

Welcome back Happy Dance

To add to what arnold said even starkiller realized he couldn't beat Vader using the dark side if he couldn't do it then Malak definitely isn't gonna get out of this alive.

kotorfan
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
http://www.math.sk/bacigal/homepage/foto/relax/google_dumbQ.gif


that is so awesome .. I love that pic lol

Elite Hunter
Good to have you back Ivalice and watch what you say to people so you don't get a permaban. stick out tongue

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

Fanskywalker already gave you the quote from "The Courtship of Princess Leia," but the ROTJ novel states that from the very begining of the duel on the death star, that Luke was using his anger (darkside) for the first half of the duel including the scene where Vader was kicked down the steps, all the while he was trying to kill Luke. Then Luke went apeshit using the DS and his raw power(much greater then Malak's) in the last part of the duel and caught Vader completely off guard.

I meant to say here that Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke,but since I have suck at typing and barely proof read my posts (or anything) I f***** up roll eyes (sarcastic)

Faunus
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Malak takes the forceI presume you're giving this to Malak because he can wield Force-lightning. Well, that may be true, but it doesn't mean Vader can't block it. Rule of Two demonstrates that it is possible to telekinetically attempt to stop oncoming lightning.

kotorfan
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Malak is a straightforward lightsaber combatant. and he can increase his damage through Sith Rage when desired.

Source: Champions of the Force


Well.. I could download a mod that had bastila completly pwn Malak and then it goes to the end cut scene and credits.. then I could say Bastila wtfpwned Malak..

Lucien A
Originally posted by Faunus
I presume you're giving this to Malak because he can wield Force-lightning. Well, that may be true, but it doesn't mean Vader can't block it. Rule of Two demonstrates that it is possible to telekinetically attempt to stop oncoming lightning. Still though, Malakai was profocient in Force Lightning. With no lightsaber to help him out, Vader's not likely to live.

Then again, Malak's a twit. Might think that Vader's suit and haggard breathing is actually a sign of his Lightning-immunity and is only acting.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by kotorfan
Well.. I could download a mod that had bastila completly pwn Malak and then it goes to the end cut scene and credits.. then I could say Bastila wtfpwned Malak..

What a weak argument. Legend is wrong, but you are too. If you download a mod, you will be seeing non-canon content. This post makes me doubt in the potential of the human race.


This is a weak argument too. How exactly is "Sith Rage" applicable when it is said to "increase his damage?" A lightsaber is going to cut through anything anyway. This is obviously gameplay mechanics. Non-canon.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is questionable, specially when we are talking about Mechanical Vader. While he was still a good duelist, Malak would be far more acrobatic in his moves during a Light Saber duel. His dueling style is also unique and involves elements of Juyo (as Drew Karpyshyn once revealed to me) and his Light Saber also has a longer hilt than standard ones, thus providing him higher chances to hit his opponents. An enraged ROTJ Luke proved to be a good match for Vader in a duel and Malak can surely do better. If this was ROTS Vader, than you would have a point.
Vader was able to dodge an assassin wielding a lightsaber, while unarmed, simply through acrobatic ability. That won't be a problem.

Proof (from a source) that his style is unique? Proof that a longer saber is more likely to hit? Proof that it's longer at all? None of this has been substantiated. Do so.

An enraged Luke commands the Skywalker bloodline's natural power with a Dark Side "tap" of the same nature that allowed Kenobi to bisect Maul. Luke at that point was darn strong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Malak can defeat Mechanical Vader in an all out fight. He has an over-all edge in combative abilities in this case.
Nu-uh. You haven't come close to proving any of that. Mech Vader was 80% of Palpatine's power, he was extremely acrobatic, is both Physically and metaphysically (in the force) stronger than Malak, and he has the advantage of superior training. Anakin was equivalent to a mastery- politics held him back, not ability. Malak, as far as I know, was a knight when he left.
A knight of Anakin's caliber > one of Malak's caliber.

Faunus
Originally posted by Lucien A
Still though, Malakai was profocient in Force Lightning.But probably not powerful enough to overpower Vader's defenses with it. And that's really what it comes down to. Vader is one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the mythos, possessing about 80% the Force-power of OT Sidious. Malak, while certainly exceptional to say the least, has neither the accolades or feats to compare.

Lucien A
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
What a weak argument. Legend is wrong, but you are too. If you download a mod, you will be seeing non-canon content. This post makes me doubt in the potential of the human race. I heard facetiousness when I read it. I don't think he was being serious.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
What a weak argument. Legend is wrong, but you are too. If you download a mod, you will be seeing non-canon content. This post makes me doubt in the potential of the human race.


Correct me if i am wrong but, wasn't he joking?

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Correct me if i am wrong but, wasn't he joking?

In retrospect? Yes. I saw an easily attacked argument, and I took the opportunity. I think he probably was joking though.



Sorry 'bout that.

Faunus
You're a bully. I'm telling REX.

Lucien A
Awww, mom!

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Faunus
You're a bully. I'm telling REX.

I bullied your mom last night...



But seriously. Isn't faking a report to a mod a reportable offense? Now I'm telling REX on you!

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by Faunus
I presume you're giving this to Malak because he can wield Force-lightning. Well, that may be true, but it doesn't mean Vader can't block it. Rule of Two demonstrates that it is possible to telekinetically attempt to stop oncoming lightning.

That and the fact that Malak can also use "force drain," which I question how familiar Vader would be with the attack but I got go admit that I didn't remember that lightning can be blocked by tk. I will have to go back later to read that, that was the final battle right?

Faunus
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
That and the fact that Malak can also use "force drain," which I question how familiar Vader would be with the attackIt would still presumably take either a superior personal mastery or greater raw power to affect a prepared opponent with the Force. I don't think Malak has either.

Yep. When Farfalla throws up a "barrier" in an attempt to block Bane's lightning; of course, the attack "tears" right through on account of the Sith Lord's vastly superior power.

Schwarzenegger
Thanks for the welcome back thingy guys, i'll be sure not to get too overly aggresive especially in the games forums but i'll try to start being humble now.

As for the fight, i thought the lightning that brought down an ATAT wasn't powerful enough to even hurt vader? The one summoned by starkiller?


@fanskywalker.

The feats you requested in the PM, well i couldn't list them because i was banned but some of it were listed down in a a post in the previous page.

Anyways i might not be on so much i am using the school's comp after my own got fuked up after i "upgraded" it.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Thanks for the welcome back thingy guys, i'll be sure not to get too overly aggresive especially in the games forums but i'll try to start being humble now.

As for the fight, i thought the lightning that brought down an ATAT wasn't powerful enough to even hurt vader? The one summoned by starkiller?


@fanskywalker.

The feats you requested in the PM, well i couldn't list them because i was banned but some of it were listed down in a a post in the previous page.

Anyways i might not be on so much i am using the school's comp after my own got fuked up after i "upgraded" it.

1. No problem regarding the PM

2. You have thought correct regarding the lightning

3. Now on to the point of this post, There is a game forum? embarrasment

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