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Itachi Uchiha- killer of the entire Uchiha clan(except for Sasuke, and Madara). Itachi's jutsu's for this fight are:
Amaterasu
Crow Clone Jutsu
Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change
Ephemeral
Fire Style: Dragon Fire Jutsu
Fire Style: Great Fireball Jutsu
Fire Style: Phoenix Immortal Fire Jutsu
Mangekyo Sharingan
Sharingan
Shadow Clone Jutsu
Clone Great Explosion
Susanoo
Transcription Seal: Amaterasu
Tsukuyomi
Water Clone Jutsu
Water Style: Underwater Motion Jutsu
Water Style: Water Fang Bullet

Zabuza: attempted to kill the Mizukage, but failed. Zabuza's jutsu's for this fight are:
Hidden Mist Jutsu
Silent Homicide Jutsu
Water Clone Jutsu
Water Prison Jutsu
Water Style: Water Dragon Projectile Jutsu
Water Style: Grand Waterfall Jutsu

vs

Deidara: became a terrorist for anti-nationalists. Deidara's jutsu's are:
Clay Clone
Creative Destruction
Earth Style: Mole Hiding Jutsu
Exploding Clay (Various levels)
Suicide Bombing Clone

Tsunade- the 5th hokage of the village hidden in the leaves. Tsunade's jutsu's for this fight are:
Creation Rebirth
Important Body Points Disturbance
Mystical Palm Jutsu
Painful Sky Leg
Shadow Seal: Release
Summoning Jutsu (Slugs)

Who wins this fight?

Team 1.

Itachi IIRC can easily beat Deidara and Zabuza can beat Tsunade(yes I fvckin said it).

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Team 1.

Itachi IIRC can easily beat Deidara and Zabuza can beat Tsunade(yes I fvckin said it).

Itachi>Deidara, yes
Zabuza>Tsunade, , heck no.

Actually. Itachi can't really beat Dei at all. Just out of the concept that dei is the worst opponent for Itachi

... Sasuke was fighting on par with Deidara, Itachi would curb Deidara

Originally posted by Terryc250
... Sasuke was fighting on par with Deidara, Itachi would curb Deidara

Itachi doesn't have Raiton to make Deidera's bombs ineffective. If Itachi was in Sasukes situation he would have died.

Originally posted by Csdabest
Itachi doesn't have Raiton to make Deidera's bombs ineffective. If Itachi was in Sasukes situation he would have died. You know what he does have? Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, and Susanoo. All of which would, and one of which has already, owned Deidara easily.Originally posted by Wil7
Itachi>Deidara, yes
Zabuza>Tsunade, , heck no.

Fighter who can make his opponents blind vs Healer who only has super strength and low fighting skills and slugs.. Yea I'd go with Zabuza.

No but he probably has other things to counter it, keep in mind that the Itachi we saw was not a full powered itachi, he was handicapped with illness, and he also gave his power to naruto. Itachi wouldn't be in Sasuke's situation in the first place, he would've defeated Deidara long before then, What is Deidara going to do against Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, or even Amaterasu? These are all instant moves unlike Deidaras bombs, and he can trap Deidara in genjutsu as soon as Deidara looks at him.

team 2

deidara claims to know how to defend against sharingan genjutsu and planned on beating itachi anyway (not saying it would be a cake walk but he do well against sasuke)

and tsunade would make zabuza into paste, this whole notion that she is weak in taijutsu is bs since sakura is the second coming of tsunade just like naruto and sasuke represent the other sannin. sakura while fighting sasori displayed uber taijutsu skills that were all from her training from tsunade, chiyo was busy with her ten puppets.

He has only experienced the tip of Itachi's genjutsu, he has NEVER experienced mangekyou, one tsukiyomi and Deidara will be out.

Why is everyone so limited with jutsus? And Itachi gets alot of jutsus?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
team 2

deidara claims to know how to defend against sharingan genjutsu and planned on beating itachi anyway (not saying it would be a cake walk but he do well against sasuke)

and tsunade would make zabuza into paste, this whole notion that she is weak in taijutsu is bs since sakura is the second coming of tsunade just like naruto and sasuke represent the other sannin. sakura while fighting sasori displayed uber taijutsu skills that were all from her training from tsunade, chiyo was busy with her ten puppets. Nearly everything Sakura did was manipulated by Chiyo when it came to dodging.

Itachi already beat Deidera.

Originally posted by Kento
Fighter who can make his opponents blind vs Healer who only has super strength and low fighting skills and slugs.. Yea I'd go with Zabuza.

Low fighting skills? Ouch.

Well she is a tanker. Her moves consists of jabs and haymakers and simple kicks. No style or grace really, she just seems to be a brawler.

I just find it hard to believe that one of the Legendary Sannin can't beat Zabuza Momochi.

Well, featwise she can't.

Unless she summons that big snail. But otherwise she has no jutsu that can dispel the mist and her speed isn't monumentally impressive. She just doesn't have the arsenal.

...Itachi has already beaten Deidara, and did so easily.

As for Zabuza, he is faster, more skilled, better offensive jutsu, maybe even more chakra, and has a jutsu that is death to tanks like Tsunade, Hidden Mist, rendering all her strength useless.

Well we've still yet to see her at her best, i used to think Jiraiya was overrated before the fight with Pain, because all we saw was him giving chumps rasengans, then he fought Pain and showed his full capability and it was impressive.

She beat up an armless Orochimaru, and imo, armless Orochimaru > Zabuza.

Well I dunno. Tsunade was fighting Zabuza to kill, and she was extremely pissed.

I suppose she might have some uber medical ninjutsu maybe?

Yeah, and maybe she can fire a supa megapowaful laza from her diamond forehead!!!

Fact is, Jiraiya and Oro upstaged her in the fight, and they were both weakened. Lulz.

Yet Tsunade has stayed away from the battle and used her chakra to heal from afar. I seriously doubt she's going to get much better.

And we've also got nobody talking about how powerful she us except in medical ninjutsu. Jiraiya has had people call him powerful. He also trained while out and about while Tsunade lost all her money gambling instead.

As for Deidara..why in the world would he train one eye to try and defeat Itachi with when he usually keeps it covered anyway?

Not really, weak Jiraiya fought on par with armless Orochimaru, Tsunade gave Orochimaru a straightup beatdown =\

Deidara lost to one of Itachi's most basic genjutsus, Deidara got a boner from it and spent all his time trying to develop one of his eyes to overcome Itachi's basic genjutsu. It worked against Sasuke however, doesn't mean itll work against Itachi, and if Itachi got serious Deidara would bite the dust quick.

But the man had no arms...

And even then he wasn't even really feeling it. He turned into taffy and she was knocking him around but not actually doing any damage.

Well Orochimaru doesn't even feel it when 3-tails naruto ripped his face off, Orochimaru has insanely underrated durability, and healing factor

Originally posted by Terryc250
Not really, weak Jiraiya fought on par with armless Orochimaru, Tsunade gave Orochimaru a straightup beatdown =\

Deidara lost to one of Itachi's most basic genjutsus, Deidara got a boner from it and spent all his time trying to develop one of his eyes to overcome Itachi's basic genjutsu And Tsunade was in full health while Oro and Jiraiya were weakned or drugged. And she still had to surprise Oro to get him if I recall.

Yea..one eye. Why not both. It would seem a little smarter. At least I think it would.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Not really, weak Jiraiya fought on par with armless Orochimaru, Tsunade gave Orochimaru a straightup beatdown =\ Funny, I seem to recall Oro stabbing her multiple times with the Kusanagi, with Tsunade only saved by her one main talent besides being a tank, her healing jutsu.

I think opening that seal required a ton of her chakra, and summoning, etc. She was beating the crap out of him, and countering everything he did at her, his insane durability just made her look bad thats all.

But before the beat down he had also been fighting J-Man for like twenty minutes.

And in the end Orichimaru doesn't have Zabuza's tank nullifying abilities like Zabuza does. He just stood there and took it really.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Funny, I seem to recall Oro stabbing her multiple times with the Kusanagi, with Tsunade only saved by her one main talent besides being a tank, her healing jutsu.

I definately don't remember her getting stabbed, unless you were talking about when she got stabbed protecting Naruto, then she open up the seals for her wounds then stabbed Manda, and Beat up orochimaru

Tsunade definately didn't look as bad in the manga, the anime made her look like a pussy, and have Orochimaru take all those shots, in the manga, all that happened was Tsunade took out Manda, Orochimaru tried to attack her from behind with his tongue, Tsunade coutnered it, and gave him one punch that sent him flying, and Kabuto was just like Whoa, and then Orochimaru and Kabuto left after that.

Which she'd never have gotten a hold of Oro if he hadn't of been weakened and unable to use jutsu. His fighting style became completely different without the use of his arms..and worse. She caught his tounge didn't she and just yanked him towards her?

After she took out Manda, Orochimaru attack her from behind with his tongue, wrapped it around her neck, Tsunade ripped it off, yank him towards her, and punched him out. Fight over. Thats how it happened in the manga.

Hmm I kept thinking she caught the tounge. That still only shows her strength..Which is all she really has besides her ultimate healing jutsu, and being the best medical ninja which are really the only thing she's praised about.

They praise them for being Sanin, they never really go into detail about Jiraiya's ninjutsu either. Tsunade just gets extra medical praise, i still have faith that Tsunade is more powerful then how everyone thinks, and that she has more in her arsenal then what the anime depicted her out to be.

When i was reading the manga before watching the anime, i thought she was pretty impressive, it was just the anime that made her look bad imo.

Regardless, Zabuza has tools that are almost designed to take out a brute like Tsunade.

I wonder if she can heal from decapitation?

Maybe it's like Pokemon, where if everyone cries she'll come back to life.

Silly whiteboy, everyone knows that no one would cry over Tsunade.

Well I didn't say they would, just that they could.

Originally posted by Terryc250
They praise them for being Sanin, they never really go into detail about Jiraiya's ninjutsu either. Tsunade just gets extra medical praise, i still have faith that Tsunade is more powerful then how everyone thinks, and that she has more in her arsenal then what the anime depicted her out to be.

When i was reading the manga before watching the anime, i thought she was pretty impressive, it was just the anime that made her look bad imo. But Tsunade is usually specifically hailed for her medical jutsu nothing else. Jiraiya was hinted at being powerful during the Kisame/Itachi talk. And after you find out how they got the name Sannin it becomes less impressive actually. And besides Naruto/Sasuke/Sakura are playing out exactly like Tsunade/Jiriaya/Orochimaru. Sakura/Tsunade useless for the most part but expert at healing. Oro/Sasuke are the best at jutsu and know the strongest jutsu out of the groups. Naruto/Jiraiya both know just a few jutsu but make it up by being the powerhouses.

Well that depends.

Does the f@ggotry of Konoha=F@ggotry of Pokemon?

Remember, Sasuke is no longer there, but I reckon Neji could offer a sizable portion of f@ggotry...

Originally posted by Kento
But Tsunade is usually specifically hailed for her medical jutsu nothing else. Jiraiya was hinted at being powerful during the Kisame/Itachi talk. And after you find out how they got the name Sannin it becomes less impressive actually. And besides Naruto/Sasuke/Sakura are playing out exactly like Tsunade/Jiriaya/Orochimaru. Sakura/Tsunade useless for the most part but expert at healing. Oro/Sasuke are the best at jutsu and know the strongest jutsu out of the groups. Naruto/Jiraiya both know just a few jutsu but make it up by being the powerhouses.

Yeah that Naruto was protected by one of the Sanin, and that he might be a match for one of the mists 7 strongest swordmen, they don't praise his ninjutsu, but that doesn't mean he has none. Sakura isn't entirely useless imo, shes one of the most skilled in her generation, the Sanin however, were by far the most skilled in their generation besides the konoha white fang.

Sakura is probably the most skilled female in her generation but she's one of the least skilled of the rookie 9 when it comes to something other than chakra control and medical ninja imo.

And Tsunade's skill was the same as Sakura's. Expert chakra control, and medical ninjutsu. She's never been shown to be a fighter. She has the power to one-shot some people sure but she's not really shown the skill or speed to land the one hit she'll need. To make it worse she'd be fighting blind against Zabuza while Zabuza could find her just fine. Besides strength isn't always the winner in Naruto. Certain styles can beat other styles even if one person is weaker.

In terms of fighting ability i would put Sakura on par with Shino

We don't even see much from Tsunade thats the thing, going by the manga all we saw was her stabbing manda, and punching out orochimaru, thats all. Until we actually see more of her abilities and power, i would atleast put her above Zabuza, just from all the hype the name Sanin has. People assume the White Fang is so powerful just because of that dialogue with him and Sanin.

... what fighting ability has Shino ever shown? He ***** slapped Zaku and blocked one of his punches. That's it.

Even if Tsunade is some kind of great fighter (which I still doubt being she's hiding from a person attacking the village she's meant to protect) it doesn't mean she'll win. She'll still be fighting blind, and Zabuza won't be going after somebody else. Zabuza's style is nearly tailor made to fight Tsunade. Make her blind, and cut her head off. She won't really be able to counter that with anything.

Just like Zabuza has nearly no chance if he was to fight Deidara.

Like she'd just stand there being blind, like i've said we haven't seen enough from Tsunade to just rule she'd stand there and beable to do nothing, infact i wouldn't doubt it if she could just slam her fist into them ground and blow the mist away for a big radius.


What about the fight with Kankuro? If Sakura and Shino were to fight, it would be a close fight, but im leaning towards Sakura

Are you referring to physical abilities or overall fighting prowess?

So we must assume she can do stuff she hasn't shown at all. Like being a smart fighter, having speed, and being able to do stuff while being blind against a guy who will be able to find her just fine, and has shown more speed?

Eh if Shino and Sakura were to fight h2h Sakura would probably win because she can damage the area even if she doesn't hit Shino catching him off guard. But Shino's fighting style relies heavily on long range fighting and his bugs. Which Sakura wouldn't really be able to counter as she isn't fast enough to just blitz her way close enough.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Are you referring to physical abilities or overall fighting prowess?
In an overall fight.

Its not just a random assumption, its saying since we've hardly seen much from her, we can't just say she can't do anything about mist, she is a sanin afterall and is a 50 year old which means she has a ton ofexperience and even war experiance. Its like saying Kakashi will lose to Gai because we havent seen what Kakashi would do against Gai opening all his gates and using morning peacock.

She has ton of experience..at healing people. She's never been shown to be anything but a medical ninja with a short temper that left her village to gamble her life away.

The fact Kakashi and Gai are pretty much equals...Gai opening the gates like he did against Kisame should equal certain defeat for Kakashi.

Just because healing is her specialty doesn't mean she spent the last 40 years just healing people.

If Gai opening the gates equals certain defeat for Kakashi then that would make Gai > Kakashi. But if they were to actually fight, Kakashi would find a way around it, he is much smarter then that.

Yea for 13+ of those years she was doing nothing but gambling.

Except the Gates usually come at a physical price and need a bit of time just like MS for Kakashi so it's not like they are going to use them without hesitation. And Kakashi's attack is probably the faster of the two if they did.

And Kakashi wouldn't have the speed to avoid being blitzed if Gai was able to open the gates and do morning peacock.

Doesn't mean she only learned how to heal people while she was a sanin.

It doesn't effect Gai as much as it does Lee, as it was shown he was totally fine after opening the gates, and fought like nothing happened to him. Kakashi after time-skip > Gai imo, thats because he gains MS.

Pre-timeskip is when they were "even" and i'm certain Kakashi knows ways around just speed, or else Gai wouldn't consider Kakashi his equal rival, when he can simply just beat him by opening gates.

Doesn't mean she became a super ultimate beat anything fighter either when she's not even said to be anything but a medical ninja. She trained to be a medical ninja not a fighter.

Gai also didn't get his legs crushed and didn't stay in it that long. Gaining MS doesn't suddenly make one superior to everybody. Not to mention the strain it puts on Kakashi's body.

Or it could be that Gai doesn't use the gates against Kakashi when they fight because they are dangerous and that Kakashi is almost just as fast as Gai is without gates. Kakashi is also more of a purely ninjutsu type fighter while Gai is strictly taijutsu. To be equals in fighting Gai had to overcome not only the sharingan but the fact Kakashi can go from short range to long range.

I never said she is a "super ultimate beat anything fighter" did i? Learning medical jutsus does not disable you to learn everything else, she obviously can use other jutsus, hence why she can use SUMMONs.

Huh? Lee getting his leg crushed has nothing to do with what i'm talking about, it was shown over and over again that even when Lee does the Lotus it effects him, extreme lotus effects him, Gai opened all those gates, did the morning peacock, and he was totally fine. I didn't say gaining MS makes him superior to everybody...? Im not understanding where you are getting these from. MS is a powerful move that can put him above a person, not "everybody" but above someone who is close in skill, for example Sasuke and Sasuke is equal, then a month later One Sasuke has MS the other one doesn't. That puts the one with MS above the regular Sasuke.

So you're saying Gai is only equal to Kakashi if Gai holds back? Thats makes no sense, if a person is equal to someone, then they're equal. They can't be equal if only Gai is holding back his powers. Kakashi is equal because he is superior in ninjutsu, genjutsu, intelligence, versatility, while Gai has his powerful gates, speed, and taijutsu.

Originally posted by Kento
Fighter who can make his opponents blind vs Healer who only has super strength and low fighting skills and slugs.. Yea I'd go with Zabuza.


Kakashi found Zabuza, even in the hidden mist, and Tsunade would just keep punching the ground and messing up the ground until he finally hit Zabuza, and she will summon Katsuya, and she will spray acid every where, and kill Zabuza.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I never said she is a "super ultimate beat anything fighter" did i? Learning medical jutsus does not disable you to learn everything else, she obviously can use other jutsus, hence why she can use SUMMONs.

Huh? Lee getting his leg crushed has nothing to do with what i'm talking about, it was shown over and over again that even when Lee does the Lotus it effects him, extreme lotus effects him, Gai opened all those gates, did the morning peacock, and he was totally fine. I didn't say gaining MS makes him superior to everybody...? Im not understanding where you are getting these from. MS is a powerful move that can put him above a person, not "everybody" but above someone who is close in skill, for example Sasuke and Sasuke is equal, then a month later One Sasuke has MS the other one doesn't. That puts the one with MS above the regular Sasuke.

So you're saying Gai is only equal to Kakashi if Gai holds back? Thats makes no sense, if a person is equal to someone, then they're equal. They can't be equal if only Gai is holding back his powers. Kakashi is equal because he is superior in ninjutsu, genjutsu, intelligence, versatility, while Gai has his powerful gates, speed, and taijutsu.

But you are saying she's up there with Jiraiya and Oro in fighting skills when she's only been shown to have low fighting skills, immense chakra control, and the best medical ninjutsu. There is nothing suggesting she's got any kind of fighting skills. Even if she did she's also fighting somebody that has a big advantage over her since she's completely taijutsu.

Gai's body is also stronger than Lee's. And Gai still only used the gates for a few seconds. Lee stayed in it for a whole lot longer. You said MS suddenly made Kakashi superior to Gai. It was just a generalization of any MS really that I was talking about. And Kakashi's downfalls on the MS technique wouldn't really be that much to put him over anybody since using it more than once leaves him drained completely. It's a double edged sword just like the eight gates.

No I'm saying they are equal without using their moves that could kill them. While Kakashi could get his move off first to send Gai to a different dimension Gai's can let him speedblitz Kakashi assuming he was able to use it.

Originally posted by Wil7
Kakashi found Zabuza, even in the hidden mist, and Tsunade would just keep punching the ground and messing up the ground until he finally hit Zabuza, and she will summon Katsuya, and she will spray acid every where, and kill Zabuza. Kakashi found Zabubza because he knew where Zabuza was going to attack. Sakura was in front, the open place was behind the old man.

Zabuza has long range attacks or can just throw his sword with enough accuracy to chop her head off. Creating a small area of damage wildly while blind would just be idiotic when he probably wouldn't even get close.

Originally posted by Kento
Kakashi found Zabubza because he knew where Zabuza was going to attack. Sakura was in front, the open place was behind the old man.

Zabuza has long range attacks or can just throw his sword with enough accuracy to chop her head off. Creating a small area of damage wildly while blind would just be idiotic when he probably wouldn't even get close.

He also found him with a summoning jutsu.

She will just move out of the way. Tsunade would break the sword before Zabuza could do anything with it. Tsunade can also just speed blitz Zabuza, and one punch will take his head off. She will just summon Katsuya, and that is the end of the fight.

Originally posted by Wil7
He also found him with a summoning jutsu.

She will just move out of the way. Tsunade would break the sword before Zabuza could do anything with it. Tsunade can also just speed blitz Zabuza, and one punch will take his head off. She will just summon Katsuya, and that is the end of the fight. Which Tsunade doesn't have..So your point?

Move out of the way while being blind by the mist so she won't know where it is. That makes a whole lot of sense. And speedblitz..like she did to Kabuto?

Originally posted by Wil7
Kakashi found Zabuza, even in the hidden mist, and Tsunade would just keep punching the ground and messing up the ground until he finally hit Zabuza, and she will summon Katsuya, and she will spray acid every where, and kill Zabuza. And Kakashi at that point would beat Tsunade too, by feats.

Punching the ground? And while doing that, he just uses his speed and sword to decapitate her.

No PIS involved, Zabuza decapitates her start of battle ftw.

Originally posted by Kento
But you are saying she's up there with Jiraiya and Oro in fighting skills when she's only been shown to have low fighting skills, immense chakra control, and the best medical ninjutsu. There is nothing suggesting she's got any kind of fighting skills. Even if she did she's also fighting somebody that has a big advantage over her since she's completely taijutsu.
.. No i didn't, I said she's atleast above Zabuza, where does it state she's completely taijutsu? Because she punched out Orochimaru? Her fights have been like a couple minutes each, thats not enough to gauge that as her limit, the fact that shes able to use summons already disproves your "she's completely taijutsu" theory.


My point still stands, Gai can use it without it effecting him as much as Lee, Lee moved around with his gates, Gai exerted the Morning Peacock. The thing you don't seem to be understanding is pre-timeskip they were considered equal, post-timeskip Kakashi gains MS, if they're equal in Pre-Timeskip and in Post-timeskip one of them gains a powerful weapon, it would make the one with the powerful weapon above wouldn't it?


Kakashi couldn't do MS in pre-timeskip, and they were considered equal in PRE-TIMESKIP(not post-timeskip). If Gai could speedblitz Kakashi in pre-timeskip, they wouldn't be considered equal now would they? You're still basically saying they're only equal if Gai holds back, which is a bit ridiculous.

Originally posted by Kento
Even if Tsunade is some kind of great fighter (which I still doubt being she's hiding from a person attacking the village she's meant to protect) it doesn't mean she'll win. She'll still be fighting blind, and Zabuza won't be going after somebody else. Zabuza's style is nearly tailor made to fight Tsunade. Make her blind, and cut her head off. She won't really be able to counter that with anything.

Just like Zabuza has nearly no chance if he was to fight Deidara.


you seem to forget that the risk of losing a hokage is a great one and she allso thinks naruto is on his way to handle Pain. I think Tsunade beleives in the ninja of the hidden village enough to defeat pain. Also Tsunade is a medical ninja she can reduce the casualty rate by alot. Why would she go out there when there are capable ninja dealing with the enemy.

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. No i didn't, I said she's atleast above Zabuza, where does it state she's completely taijutsu? Because she punched out Orochimaru? Her fights have been like a couple minutes each, thats not enough to gauge that as her limit, the fact that shes able to use summons already disproves your "she's completely taijutsu" theory.


My point still stands, Gai can use it without it effecting him as much as Lee, Lee moved around with his gates, Gai exerted the Morning Peacock. The thing you don't seem to be understanding is pre-timeskip they were considered equal, post-timeskip Kakashi gains MS, if they're equal in Pre-Timeskip and in Post-timeskip one of them gains a powerful weapon, it would make the one with the powerful weapon above wouldn't it?


Kakashi couldn't do MS in pre-timeskip, and they were considered equal in PRE-TIMESKIP(not post-timeskip). If Gai could speedblitz Kakashi in pre-timeskip, they wouldn't be considered equal now would they? You're still basically saying they're only equal if Gai holds back, which is a bit ridiculous. Except summoning is just summoning. It has nothing to do with her fighting style. Her fighting style is taijutsu. Her fighting style is exactly the same as Sakura. The person SHE trained to fight. Cause Kakashi sure didn't train Sakura to fight at all. He left her sitting on the side while he favored Sasuke.

Gai used it for like a couple of seconds. Lee used the first gate for a while then went to the fourth or fifth whichever and used that also. He stayed in it a lot longer than Gai did.

So you're saying that they were ONLY equal if Gai used the gates and that Gai was so far below Kakashi?? Cause that's what it sounds like if they were only equal with Gai using the gates.

Or it could be that Kakashi gained his ultimate move to match Gai's ultimate move.

Kakashi had trouble keeping up with Lee during Lee's fight with Gaara while using the Sharingan, and Gai would be much faster using the gates. So how would Gai Pre-TS NOT be able to blitz Kakashi if he opened the gates? And here's a thought why would Gai even use the gates in a match against Kakashi? And why would they only be equals if Gai has to use a move that could kill him constantly to fight on even terms and not Gai's own ability?

Originally posted by yungz22
you seem to forget that the risk of losing a hokage is a great one and she allso thinks naruto is on his way to handle Pain. I think Tsunade beleives in the ninja of the hidden village enough to defeat pain. Also Tsunade is a medical ninja she can reduce the casualty rate by alot. Why would she go out there when there are capable ninja dealing with the enemy. The Hokage's job is to PROTECT the village. Not sit back and let weaker people do it for you. And capable ninja..Like Kakashi who is one of the strongest and has just been easily beaten. Or Chouza who was just killed. Or all the other ninja Pein has easily defeated? Sitting back to wait for somebody else isn't the job of a Hokage either. The only acceptable reason to hang back is to wait to find out the truth about Pein then attack. But she looks like she's using most of her chakra to heal instead.

Tsunade is always sitting on her ass, im somewhat inclined to think the Hokages usually just sit on their ass except for the major major threats, like the 9tails. I don't think the 3rd would've even got so involved if it wasn't his former student.

Hokage's are suppose to just sit around doing paper work, and mending alliances with other villages until something big happens..Pein counts as that. When one guy is destroying a whole village it's a big deal. And I think the fact two villages were attacking Konoha that Sarutobi would have gotten involved. Telling people what to do and all that. Tsunade's doing what she does best, healing, and I think the 3rd would do what he does best. Fight.

Originally posted by Kento
Hokage's are suppose to just sit around doing paper work, and mending alliances with other villages until something big happens..Pein counts as that. When one guy is destroying a whole village it's a big deal. And I think the fact two villages were attacking Konoha that Sarutobi would have gotten involved. Telling people what to do and all that. Tsunade's doing what she does best, healing, and I think the 3rd would do what he does best. Fight.

I'm not caught up on the naruto manga, waiting for the anime to catch up more so I don't know whats going on as far as Pein is concerned. but yeah you've got a point with the 3rd.

So what's happening in the anime right now? I know it's the Hidan/Kakuzu arc but I don't know where it's at.

Originally posted by Kento
Except summoning is just summoning. It has nothing to do with her fighting style. Her fighting style is taijutsu. Her fighting style is exactly the same as Sakura. The person SHE trained to fight. Cause Kakashi sure didn't train Sakura to fight at all. He left her sitting on the side while he favored Sasuke.
How isn't summoning part of her fighting style? Summoning is definately part of anyone fighting style, one of Pains bodies is a specialist in summoning, there have been opponents in the past that use alot of summoning in their fighting style. Sakura asked Tsunade to teach her medical, because she felt she was useless, Tsunade basically just taught her medical jutsu. That does not mean that Sakura knows everything Tsunade does. If Tsunade was so useless and could only do medical jutsu and couldn't fight and would get beat by any jounin, they wouldn't have appointed her as Hokage in the first place.


Gai used it for a couple minutes, he chased Kisame around, and then exerted far more power then Lee did.


If they are stated equal, then that would mean that if they were to fight eachother at their best, it would be a draw. And at Gai's best he would be opening gates, just like at Kakashi's best he'd be using his sharingan, and jutsus.


Then that would mean in pre-timeskip Gai was the superior of the two, because Kakashi didn't have the move to match Gai's ultimate move, which is false, they were said to be EQUAL in pre-timeskip.


Umm no he didn't, he saw the entire thing and even was able to tell when his muscles were snapping. He couldn't blitz Kakashi because he can't, if he could blitz Kakashi then he would make him ABOVE Kakashi, which he isn't.

Same reason why Kakashi would use sharingan if he were to fight Gai, to win. Gai wouldn't kill Kakashi, because Kakashi would figure a way to avoid it, Kakashi is far faster then Genin Sasuke, and Genin Sasuke was able to predict and counter 2-tailed Naruto, Kakashi definately wouldn't get blitz'd and annihilated by gates. If that were true then they wouldn't be "equals"

There's no use being "equals" if one of them has to hold back, their power.

I haven't watched the lastest ep yet but they just had the funeral for Asuma

Originally posted by Terryc250
How isn't summoning part of her fighting style? Summoning is definately part of anyone fighting style, one of Pains bodies is a specialist in summoning, there have been opponents in the past that use alot of summoning in their fighting style. Sakura asked Tsunade to teach her medical, because she felt she was useless, Tsunade basically just taught her medical jutsu. That does not mean that Sakura knows everything Tsunade does. If Tsunade was so useless and could only do medical jutsu and couldn't fight and would get beat by any jounin, they wouldn't have appointed her as Hokage in the first place.


Gai used it for a couple minutes, he chased Kisame around, and then exerted far more power then Lee did.


If they are stated equal, then that would mean that if they were to fight eachother at their best, it would be a draw. And at Gai's best he would be opening gates, just like at Kakashi's best he'd be using his sharingan, and jutsus.


Then that would mean in pre-timeskip Gai was the superior of the two, because Kakashi didn't have the move to match Gai's ultimate move, which is false, they were said to be EQUAL in pre-timeskip.


Umm no he didn't, he saw the entire thing and even was able to tell when his muscles were snapping. He couldn't blitz Kakashi because he can't, if he could blitz Kakashi then he would make him ABOVE Kakashi, which he isn't.

Same reason why Kakashi would use sharingan if he were to fight Gai, to win. Gai wouldn't kill Kakashi, because Kakashi would figure a way to avoid it, Kakashi is far faster then Genin Sasuke, and Genin Sasuke was able to predict and counter 2-tailed Naruto, Kakashi definately wouldn't get blitz'd and annihilated by gates. If that were true then they wouldn't be "equals"

There's no use being "equals" if one of them has to hold back, their power. Except for Tsunade taught her more than just medical ninjutsu. Obviously with the whole super strength thing, and Sakura remembering Tsunade teaching her that a medical ninja needs to have good reflexes so she doesn't get hit. And who knows how many time Tsunade has hit her while Sakura learned to dodge Tsunade's punches. And the same way Naruto can summon but it's not part of his fighting style. Jiraiya's fighting style involves summoning, one of Pein's bodies fighting style is summoning. Tsunade has summoned twice. Once Katsuya because Manda and Gamabunta was summoned, and just now to heal the village. Her fighting style isn't summoning it's taijutsu.

The didn't really appoint her..Jiraiya did. And she's the most skilled Medical Ninja, and respected because of it and because she's a sannin. Why wouldn't they put somebody like that in charge?

I don't remember Gai using it for that long of a time.

No Gai's best would be what he can accomplish under his own power. The Gates aren't his own power but something to unlock greater power but at a price. And when Lee's muscles snap Lee isn't exactly moving around at high speeds anymore. Which is still moot because Lee used the gates, without any real experience at using them, longer than Gai did. Gai's also a lot tougher than Lee so he could take the punishment it puts on the body better.

It's not holding back. Gai's own power isn't the gates. So you're trying to say that Gai is so weak he needs to use to gates to be on Kakashi's level pre-TS? And that Gai always uses the gates when they fight in a one-on-one friendly match?

Originally posted by Kento
Except for Tsunade taught her more than just medical ninjutsu. Obviously with the whole super strength thing, and Sakura remembering Tsunade teaching her that a medical ninja needs to have good reflexes so she doesn't get hit. And who knows how many time Tsunade has hit her while Sakura learned to dodge Tsunade's punches. And the same way Naruto can summon but it's not part of his fighting style. Jiraiya's fighting style involves summoning, one of Pein's bodies fighting style is summoning. Tsunade has summoned twice. Once Katsuya because Manda and Gamabunta was summoned, and just now to heal the village. Her fighting style isn't summoning it's taijutsu.
Which seems to be about it, Jiraiya trained Naruto for 3 years, but we don't see any new Ninjutsus or him using any genjutsus. Jiraiya is obviously capable of Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, swap of the underworld, etc, all those things, thats why the whole "since we don't see Sakura using anything, that means Tsunade is incapable of those things as well" is fallacy. We've only seen Tsunade fight like twice, for about a minute or two a piece, which like i've said, isn't enough to gauge that Tsunade is only capable of that.

The entire village agreed obviously, or she wouldn't be up there.


He used it for a couple minutes atleast, although if you're going by the anime, alot of it wasn't shown on him, it was shown on Neji, Lee, but thats still after Gai released his gates.


The gates are his own power, it takes skill to learn how to open the gates, like Kakashi said when he saw Lee open his gates he said it wasn't just hardwork, that boy really is a genius. Gai opens his gates when he fights seriously. Lee's muscles snaps in mid-air while he was blitzing Gaara, no where did it say Kakashi couldn't keep up, or did it even suggest that, all the jounins clearly saw it, only some of the genins weren't able to keep up.



Gai's Gates are just as much his power as Sharingan is Kakashi's. I'm not trying to say he's weak wtf are you talking about? Gai needs to open his gates, and Kakashi needs to use his sharingan, both are eachothers power, just because Gai opens his gates it makes him no weaker then Kakashi using his sharingan. They probably never even had a match before, they probably just seen what eachother are capable of, and Gai called him his equal thats it. But if they ARE equal, then that would mean they are equal when they are both fighting seriously, not holding back.

Originally posted by Kento
Which Tsunade doesn't have..So your point?

Move out of the way while being blind by the mist so she won't know where it is. That makes a whole lot of sense. And speedblitz..like she did to Kabuto?

She can summon Katsuya and she will disperse her body to find Zabuza.

Easy enough, she speedblitzes Zabuza and socks him to death before he can even use his hidden mist jutsu. Zabuza isn't fast enough to get out of the way, and Tsunade never speed blitzed Kabuto.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
And Kakashi at that point would beat Tsunade too, by feats.

Punching the ground? And while doing that, he just uses his speed and sword to decapitate her.

No PIS involved, Zabuza decapitates her start of battle ftw.

By feats, Kakashi, by skill, Tsunade in a stomp.

He would lose the close up battle against Tsunade. He can't get near her, unless he wants to get his head punched off. She would grab that sword, and use it for herself.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Which seems to be about it, Jiraiya trained Naruto for 3 years, but we don't see any new Ninjutsus or him using any genjutsus. Jiraiya is obviously capable of Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, swap of the underworld, etc, all those things, thats why the whole "since we don't see Sakura using anything, that means Tsunade is incapable of those things as well" is fallacy. We've only seen Tsunade fight like twice, for about a minute or two a piece, which like i've said, isn't enough to gauge that Tsunade is only capable of that.

The entire village agreed obviously, or she wouldn't be up there.


He used it for a couple minutes atleast, although if you're going by the anime, alot of it wasn't shown on him, it was shown on Neji, Lee, but thats still after Gai released his gates.


The gates are his own power, it takes skill to learn how to open the gates, like Kakashi said when he saw Lee open his gates he said it wasn't just hardwork, that boy really is a genius. Gai opens his gates when he fights seriously. Lee's muscles snaps in mid-air while he was blitzing Gaara, no where did it say Kakashi couldn't keep up, or did it even suggest that, all the jounins clearly saw it, only some of the genins weren't able to keep up.



Gai's Gates are just as much his power as Sharingan is Kakashi's. I'm not trying to say he's weak wtf are you talking about? Gai needs to open his gates, and Kakashi needs to use his sharingan, both are eachothers power, just because Gai opens his gates it makes him no weaker then Kakashi using his sharingan. They probably never even had a match before, they probably just seen what eachother are capable of, and Gai called him his equal thats it. But if they ARE equal, then that would mean they are equal when they are both fighting seriously, not holding back. Jiraiya CAN'T use genjutsu unless he's in Hermit Mode and has Pa and Ma Toad to do it. Also Jiraiya taught Naruto Rasengan because he knew Naruto is to stupid to remember handseals. Sakura is a completely different story. Not to mention we've not seen Jiraiya do much before his fight with Pein but we know he can do more than taijutsu. Tsunade's HUGE fight and all we saw was taijutsu, healing, and summoning. If she could do more I bet she would have against Oro.

She's a respected Sannin..and no the entire village doesn't agree.

http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11811/page.12/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11811/page.13/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11811/page.14/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11811/page.15/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11811/page.16/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11811/page.17/

That is all it shows. It wasn't minutes.

Okay I was wrong. But Kakashi was surprised by how fast he was. And the only two Jounin are Kakashi and Gai. Gai a speedster himself, and Kakashi with the sharingan. The only other person it showed that had no trouble seeing Lee was Neji. And Gai, and Kakashi both reference it as a double-edge sword that isn't meant to be used lightly. Why would Gai use it on Kakashi when he's in no serious trouble? Prove Gai is only Kakashi's equal by doing a move that puts strain on his body, and gives him more power than he has by a great amount.

The Gates are a move used in dire situations. Like MS for Kakashi. And if Gai NEEDS the gates to fight Kakashi then you are calling him extremely weak. After all the gates increase somebodies power greatly and Gai would be nothing to Kakashi if Gai needed to gates to fight evenly.

Originally posted by Wil7
She can summon Katsuya and she will disperse her body to find Zabuza.

Easy enough, she speedblitzes Zabuza and socks him to death before he can even use his hidden mist jutsu. Zabuza isn't fast enough to get out of the way, and Tsunade never speed blitzed Kabuto.



By feats, Kakashi, by skill, Tsunade in a stomp.

He would lose the close up battle against Tsunade. He can't get near her, unless he wants to get his head punched off. She would grab that sword, and use it for herself. So she's going to summon faster than Zabuza can cut her head off now? And Katsuya will still be unable to see through the Mist.

That was the point. Who has she ever speedblitzed anybody. Kabuto, and Kakashi are said to be equals, and Zabuza is up there with both of them, and she had trouble against Kabuto who himself hasn't shown much fighting skill.

Skill..Like all the skill Tsunade has shown outside of Medical Ninjutsu..Oh yea that's right she hasn't.

Grab a sword she can't see...I didn't know she had some hax jutsu to see through mist.

gai is equal to kakashi overall without gates, after all gate opening is forbidden.

kakashi excels in ninjutsu whereas gai excels in taijutsu with speed being the equalizer, also kakashi's chackra researve isn't that great so gai using taijutsu primarily saves lots of chackra for him in the long run. gai even knows how to combat the sharingan genjutsu in mid-battle.

kakashi is more cunning, this helps since his low chackra can be used properly, but in gai's case, his speed will land more potential hits.

they are pretty even.

Originally posted by Wil7
By feats, Kakashi, by skill, Tsunade in a stomp.

He would lose the close up battle against Tsunade. He can't get near her, unless he wants to get his head punched off. She would grab that sword, and use it for herself. Skill? Lol, WHAT skill? Tsunade is a brawler, she throws random jabs and haymakers to bludgeon her opponent. That's it.

Considering Zabuza is much faster, how will Tsunade go about doing this before her pretty little head hits the pavement?

Grab the sword? Not likely, too slow.

Originally posted by Kento
Hokage's are suppose to just sit around doing paper work, and mending alliances with other villages until something big happens..Pein counts as that. When one guy is destroying a whole village it's a big deal. And I think the fact two villages were attacking Konoha that Sarutobi would have gotten involved. Telling people what to do and all that. Tsunade's doing what she does best, healing, and I think the 3rd would do what he does best. Fight.

The 3rd was actually forced to join the fight. He was locked in that prism with oro

Originally posted by yungz22
The 3rd was actually forced to join the fight. He was locked in that prism with oro And what does that do with me thinking he'd fight anyway instead of hide away?

Originally posted by Kento
And what does that do with me thinking he'd fight anyway instead of hide away?

idk

Originally posted by Kento
Jiraiya CAN'T use genjutsu unless he's in Hermit Mode and has Pa and Ma Toad to do it. Also Jiraiya taught Naruto Rasengan because he knew Naruto is to stupid to remember handseals. Sakura is a completely different story. Not to mention we've not seen Jiraiya do much before his fight with Pein but we know he can do more than taijutsu. Tsunade's HUGE fight and all we saw was taijutsu, healing, and summoning. If she could do more I bet she would have against Oro.

When was it stated he can't remember hand seals? Tsunade never had a huge fight what are you talking about? If you're talking about her fight with Orochimaru it was about a minute, and cannot be considered a "huge" fight like Pein vs Jiraiya, all that happened in her fight was they summoned, she took out Manda, then gave Orochimaru a punch, and the fight was over. That's hardly enough of a "huge" fight to gauge that as her limit. We saw alot more of Jiraiya (before his fight with Pein) then of Tsunade. Naruto is capable of learning just about anything if he puts his mind to it, however in the 3 years of him training with Jiraiya we've not seen him learn any Ninjutsu, does that mean Jiraiya isn't capable of any Ninjutsu? No.


Who besides Danzou doesn't agree? The elders agreed to make Tsunade the Hokage if Jiraiya found her, all the genins parents praise her and talk about how great she is, so who else doesn't agree?


7 pages very well could be a couple minutes, in the anime it was.


Lee was a genin, obviously he'd be surprised, he had the exact same surprised expression when Sasuke used Katon jutsu. If they're stated equal that means they are equal at the best of their abilities. You really think that Gai just using his taijutsu is a match for Kakashi and all his versatility and brains? He'd definately have to open some gates if he were to seriously fight Kakashi.

Like i've said before, they probably never even have fought, but have only seen eachothers great abilities in combat, and just made that assumption.


Gai's gates are just as cheap as Kakashi's sharingan, if Gai is "weak" for using gates, Kakashi is "weak for using his sharingan.

Originally posted by Terryc250
When was it stated he can't remember hand seals? Tsunade never had a huge fight what are you talking about? If you're talking about her fight with Orochimaru it was about a minute, and cannot be considered a "huge" fight like Pein vs Jiraiya, all that happened in her fight was they summoned, she took out Manda, then gave Orochimaru a punch, and the fight was over. That's hardly enough of a "huge" fight to gauge that as her limit. We saw alot more of Jiraiya (before his fight with Pein) then of Tsunade. Naruto is capable of learning just about anything if he puts his mind to it, however in the 3 years of him training with Jiraiya we've not seen him learn any Ninjutsu, does that mean Jiraiya isn't capable of any Ninjutsu? No.


Who besides Danzou doesn't agree? The elders agreed to make Tsunade the Hokage if Jiraiya found her, all the genins parents praise her and talk about how great she is, so who else doesn't agree?


7 pages very well could be a couple minutes, in the anime it was.


Lee was a genin, obviously he'd be surprised, he had the exact same surprised expression when Sasuke used Katon jutsu. If they're stated equal that means they are equal at the best of their abilities. You really think that Gai just using his taijutsu is a match for Kakashi and all his versatility and brains? He'd definately have to open some gates if he were to seriously fight Kakashi.

Like i've said before, they probably never even have fought, but have only seen eachothers great abilities in combat, and just made that assumption.


Gai's gates are just as cheap as Kakashi's sharingan, if Gai is "weak" for using gates, Kakashi is "weak for using his sharingan. It was the main reason Jiraiya taught it to him. Because there isn't any handseals involved..And Naruto is an idiot. Do you really think he'd remember ten different handseals just to do one move? Along with five others to do another move? Besides Naruto is a taijutsu fighter for the most part. And yea..he did learn a new ninjutsu. We just haven't seen it yet. It's been kept secret.

She fought Kabuto first..and he was able to dodge her. And while even in that fight Jiraiya uses some ninjutsu all we see Tsunade use is strength, and medical jutsu. Besides using a useless summon.

I seriously doubt the people following Danzou agree with Tsunade. And she's a RESPECTED Sannin. Of course the genin's parents would praise her and want her part. Does this make her strong? No it doesn't. It makes her have a title, that she got by doing nothing but living through a war, that everybody knows and respects.

Two of the pages is him powering it up, and it really takes a couple of minutes to dodge a blow, and counter..And it still doesn't change the fact that Lee was in it a lot longer.

Because Kakashi being versatile in jutsu suddenly means Gai can't be his equal when Gai is strictly taijutsu how? And they have fought. Not every win/loss Gai and Kakashi have is fighting but I'd wager all the times Kakashi doesn't win rock, paper, scissors it is Gai challenging Kakashi to a battle.

You're mistaking what I'm saying. If Gai has to use the gates to fight evenly with Kakashi then you are calling him weak if he isn't using the gates at all. Not he's weak because he uses the gates. And you still haven't give a good reason why Gai would use a double-edged move in a friendly fight. What would be the point in using a move that can damage your body against an opponent that isn't going to try to kill you? It's a desperation move not some I'm bored let me use it type of move. Exactly like Kamui is with Kakashi. They don't use them lightly because it's dangerous.

Originally posted by Kento
So what's happening in the anime right now? I know it's the Hidan/Kakuzu arc but I don't know where it's at. kakuzu just got stabbed in the earth release heart, and now he's splitting off the masks for battle.

Originally posted by Kento
It was the main reason Jiraiya taught it to him. Because there isn't any handseals involved..And Naruto is an idiot. Do you really think he'd remember ten different handseals just to do one move? Along with five others to do another move? Besides Naruto is a taijutsu fighter for the most part. And yea..he did learn a new ninjutsu. We just haven't seen it yet. It's been kept secret.
Theres barely any jutsus with 10 handseals, no where is it stated or even suggested anywhere that Naruto has trouble remembering handseals, people just think he's stupid because he's loud and had trouble controlling his chakra in his academy days, but Naruto isn't really that stupid, if he put his mind to it he can learn just about any jutsu, and has never ever had trouble remembering handseals ever. Where did it say he learned a new ninjutsu? I can say the same thing about Sakura.


Kabuto was also stated to be about Kakashi level, and her fight with him was like a minute fight anyway, she kicked his ass then he exploited her phobia and the fight was over. Yeah, Jiraiya actually fought in that fight for awhile, Tsunade didn't. She was just shaking by herself over her phobia while Shizune fought Kabuto, then when she actually did fight it was like less then a minute, she neutralized Manda and gave Orochimaru a punch, thats all, not enough to gauge it as her limit.


Who are the people following Danzou? If there are people following Danzou i seriously doubt they would agree to anyone other then Danzou. The parents want her part? huh? iirc Shikamaru's dad praises her as being konoha's strongest kunoichi ever iirc. If she really is incapable of doing anything but healing, then she would get her ass kick by just about any ninja like Kurenai.


12-19 is all him IN his gate mode, 19 being him taking it off. Gai exerted lots more power in his shorter amount of time.


Kakashi being more versatile, more abilities, more smarter, means he's most likely above Gai. If Gai were to fight Kakashi to a stalemate, he would most likely need to open some gates. I seriously doubt he can stalemate Kakashi in his regular form.


No, you're having trouble comprehending what i'm saying. ok answer me this, does Kakashi using his Sharingan make him weak? No.

Does Gai using gates make him weak? No.

Gai can probably fight Kakashi evenly without gates, if Kakashi doesn't use his sharingan, sure.

If Kakashi uses his sharingan, Gai would most likely need to open his gates to fight equal to him.

I have given you a reason, you just are having trouble reading it, They probably have NOT fought before, they've probably just seen eachothers abilities (them fighting other opponents) and Gai just called Kakashi his equal.

Post-Timeskip i would put Kakashi above Gai
Pre-Timeskip they are equal.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Theres barely any jutsus with 10 handseals, no where is it stated or even suggested anywhere that Naruto has trouble remembering handseals, people just think he's stupid because he's loud and had trouble controlling his chakra in his academy days, but Naruto isn't really that stupid, if he put his mind to it he can learn just about any jutsu, and has never ever had trouble remembering handseals ever. Where did it say he learned a new ninjutsu? I can say the same thing about Sakura.


Kabuto was also stated to be about Kakashi level, and her fight with him was like a minute fight anyway, she kicked his ass then he exploited her phobia and the fight was over. Yeah, Jiraiya actually fought in that fight for awhile, Tsunade didn't. She was just shaking by herself over her phobia while Shizune fought Kabuto, then when she actually did fight it was like less then a minute, she neutralized Manda and gave Orochimaru a punch, thats all, not enough to gauge it as her limit.


Who are the people following Danzou? If there are people following Danzou i seriously doubt they would agree to anyone other then Danzou. The parents want her part? huh? iirc Shikamaru's dad praises her as being konoha's strongest kunoichi ever iirc. If she really is incapable of doing anything but healing, then she would get her ass kick by just about any ninja like Kurenai.


12-19 is all him IN his gate mode, 19 being him taking it off. Gai exerted lots more power in his shorter amount of time.


Kakashi being more versatile, more abilities, more smarter, means he's most likely above Gai. If Gai were to fight Kakashi to a stalemate, he would most likely need to open some gates. I seriously doubt he can stalemate Kakashi in his regular form.


No, you're having trouble comprehending what i'm saying. ok answer me this, does Kakashi using his Sharingan make him weak? No.

Does Gai using gates make him weak? No.

Gai can probably fight Kakashi evenly without gates, if Kakashi doesn't use his sharingan, sure.

If Kakashi uses his sharingan, Gai would most likely need to open his gates to fight equal to him.

I have given you a reason, you just are having trouble reading it, They probably have NOT fought before, they've probably just seen eachothers abilities (them fighting other opponents) and Gai just called Kakashi his equal.

Post-Timeskip i would put Kakashi above Gai
Pre-Timeskip they are equal.
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11804/page.15/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.21534/page.10/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.66377/page.14/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.67842/page.10/

He's got a new jutsu but it's not been shown what it is.

http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.15749/page.8/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.15749/page.9/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.15749/page.10/

The first hit Tsunade gets on Kabuto is when he's not paying attention. And that hit paralyzed him sorta which let her hit him some more. Then after he figures out how to move his body he goes to attack and Jiraiya shows up. Then he does the blood phobia thing. That doesn't change the fact he was able to dodge her, and get a hit on her and only Kakashi's level.

The team he leads that are nobody important are Danzou's followers. And you've seen how weak every single female ninja shown has been right?

How? Lee used the lotus, got beaten some, then used the first gate, then used the fourth or fifth gate for a longer time. Gai went straight to the six gate after getting hit a few times, and got out of it as soon as he won. Which was just long enough to get to Kisame, and counter his attack. Gai didn't use it long at all nor would it have been as taxing since he used it, and got out of it as quick as possible without having been seriously hurt already and using a move that puts a strain on the body anyway.

Having more jutsu doesn't make somebody more powerful. It just makes Kakashi a long range fighter..Who mostly uses close range techniques anyway. So that doesn't really matter when Kakashi is a close range ninutsu user fighting a taijutsu expert. Why would he need to open the gates?

Okay lets see if I can explain what I'm trying to mean. You think Gai needs to use the gates. We've seen how much the gates increase somebodies speed and strength. If Gai needed the gates to be on Kakashi's level then without them that would make him leagues below Kakashi.

And they have fought before..It's 50 wins 49 losses for Gai in all different types of abilities. I seriously doubt that at least five out of a hundred haven't been sparring things.

Originally posted by Kento
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11804/page.15/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.21534/page.10/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.66377/page.14/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.67842/page.10/

He's got a new jutsu but it's not been shown what it is.
Doesn't neccessarily mean its Ninjutsu, its most likely something to do with his Rasengan or Kyuubi. But my point still stands, Jiraiya has a lot of Ninjutsu, why doesn't Naruto have any? Same thing with Sasuke, Orochimaru has a million Ninjutsu, why does Sasuke only have his Uchiha fire jutsus and his Chidori/lightning jutsus? So just because Sakura doesn't show any Ninjutsu, it doesn't mean Tsunade has zero.


Kabuto is Kakashi level, Tsunade obviously underestimated him, she even later says "This boy is no ordinary shinobi" meaning she thought he was just a regular shinobi earlier, which is most likely how he got those hits on her, then after she says that, she hits him, then afterwards he resorts to exploiting her phobia.


What? The team who leads?


I'd rank Kurenai just behind Asuma, Sakura just above Shino, Hinata about Chouji level. The only horrible female is Ino.


Gai got beat up sorta by KIsame, then he opened the gates and exerted more power then Lee in a couple minutes, and after that he was basically 100% fine, Lee was literally KO'd from it, huge difference from 100% fine and KO'd.

Gai opening gates does not put as much strain on his body as Lee does.


No.. because not all jutsus are long range, Kakashi is balanced overall, he has good taijutsu, he's fast, he can predict, and he has over 1000 jutsus. Gai would need to open gates because he wouldn't beable to fight on par with Kakashi without it, same reason why Kakashi wouldn't beable to fight Gai without using his sharingan.


And we've seen how much of an advantage sharingan users have over regular opponents, its just as much advantage as the gates are, look at Sasuke for example, how he handled Kyuubi-Naruto like nothing right when he got his 3rd tomoe. You're talking like sharingan isn't an advantage but gates is a huge advantage, they're about equal, give or take here and there.


I seriously doubt Kakashi would bother fighting Gai for no reason, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would waste time and do things like that, even if he did he'd probably just give the win to Gai because he doesn't care.

Thats why he chooses just quick games to get it over with like rockpaperscissors.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Doesn't neccessarily mean its Ninjutsu, its most likely something to do with his Rasengan or Kyuubi. But my point still stands, Jiraiya has a lot of Ninjutsu, why doesn't Naruto have any? Same thing with Sasuke, Orochimaru has a million Ninjutsu, why does Sasuke only have his Uchiha fire jutsus and his Chidori/lightning jutsus? So just because Sakura doesn't show any Ninjutsu, it doesn't mean Tsunade has zero.


Kabuto is Kakashi level, Tsunade obviously underestimated him, she even later says "This boy is no ordinary shinobi" meaning she thought he was just a regular shinobi earlier, which is most likely how he got those hits on her, then after she says that, she hits him, then afterwards he resorts to exploiting her phobia.


What? The team who leads?


I'd rank Kurenai just behind Asuma, Sakura just above Shino, Hinata about Chouji level. The only horrible female is Ino.


Gai got beat up sorta by KIsame, then he opened the gates and exerted more power then Lee in a couple minutes, and after that he was basically 100% fine, Lee was literally KO'd from it, huge difference from 100% fine and KO'd.

Gai opening gates does not put as much strain on his body as Lee does.


No.. because not all jutsus are long range, Kakashi is balanced overall, he has good taijutsu, he's fast, he can predict, and he has over 1000 jutsus. Gai would need to open gates because he wouldn't beable to fight on par with Kakashi without it, same reason why Kakashi wouldn't beable to fight Gai without using his sharingan.


And we've seen how much of an advantage sharingan users have over regular opponents, its just as much advantage as the gates are, look at Sasuke for example, how he handled Kyuubi-Naruto like nothing right when he got his 3rd tomoe. You're talking like sharingan isn't an advantage but gates is a huge advantage, they're about equal, give or take here and there.


I seriously doubt Kakashi would bother fighting Gai for no reason, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would waste time and do things like that, even if he did he'd probably just give the win to Gai because he doesn't care.

Thats why he chooses just quick games to get it over with like rockpaperscissors. Rasengan IS ninjutsu. But it's talked about three different times of a jutsu that is never said. And one thing is shown. Unless all three times are about a completely different thing, which I don't see why it would be, he knows a new jutsu. Even if it is just a variation of Rasengan or he actually throws his Wind Rasengan.

She also calls him stronger than she was in her prime. Or well says he could be stronger than her. And she only hits him because she's better at medical ninjutsu than he is and he thinks he's won and isn't paying attention. She cheapshotted him. And still didn't one-shot him.

The team Danzou leads...Are his followers. And it is full of unimportant people. But it's still people who don't like Tsunade. Chouji, Ino, and Hinata are far from being strong compared to anybody. Though I blame Hinata's fear of fighting for her. Kureinai has done nothing at all except get pregnant and owned by Itachi with little effort. Anko is probably the only female that has shown anything besides Sakura or Tsunade and even then she didn't do anything real impressive either. Besides Tsunade being stronger than the rookie 9 isn't a big accomplishment..

The Kisame/Gai fight didn't last nearly as long as the Lee/Gaara fight. And Lee used the gates longer, used lotus before hand which strained the body, and then used the first gate to heal which also strains the body. Kakashi even yells at Gai for teaching him a forbidden technique. Gai didn't do anything close to what Lee did. He knows not to, and that it is dangerous to use. That's why he ended it fast.

Predicting Naruto isn't exactly a huge feat when he's the most predictable taijutsu fighter around. Gai has the speed, plus skill. And I doubt Kakashi would use sharingan against Gai anyway also. The same reason Gai won't use the gates. It's to taxing for something so trivial as a sparring match. Besides Gai said it himself he has defeated the sharingan so it's whole advantage would be nil. Naruto doesn't have Gai's extensive knowledge on the sharingan.

Originally posted by Kento
Rasengan IS ninjutsu. But it's talked about three different times of a jutsu that is never said. And one thing is shown. Unless all three times are about a completely different thing, which I don't see why it would be, he knows a new jutsu. Even if it is just a variation of Rasengan or he actually throws his Wind Rasengan.
Rasengan isn't exactly ninjutsu, there is no handseals or even element nature, its pure chakra control, its Minato's move he taught Jiraiya and Jiraiya taught to Naruto. Jiraiya has lots of Ninjutsu, but Naruto has basically no normal ninjutsus besides kage bunshin which wasn't taught to him by Jiraiya. The point is still Naruto didn't really learn any regular Ninjutsu from Jiraiya (Jiraiya has lots of Ninjutsu) Sasuke didn't really learn much of Orochimaru's millions of ninjutsus, Sakura hasn't shown any jutsu (Does that mean Tsunade has zero? No.)


She says his senses and strength MAY exceed hers, but obviously he isn't that great that he needs to exploit her phobia while she hasn't fought in along time, if he was that much of a better fighter he could've taken her out easily. She didn't cheap shot him, they were in a fight, and he let his guard down because no ordinary person would beable to stand after that, and that one hit basically did take him out, if they carried on fighting Kabuto would have lost because he didn't have 100% control over his body, so he exploits her phobia.


Who is "they" ? Root? Besides Sai, we've only seen Danzou and one anbu looking guy from Root and like I said, they most likely wouldn't like anyone who has the Hokage title besides Danzou, they've never said anything about Tsunade specifically anyway. Well its Itachi, even dodging his attack and getting out of his genjutsu is a feat itself. I never said Tsunade being stronger then the rookie 9 is an accomplishment, thats just common sense. She was stated as Konoha's greatest Kunoichi ever, which means past as well.


And Gai fought Kisame for awhile as well and didn't do too good. The fact is, Gai opened up all his gates for a couple minutes and exerted more power then Lee who just basically punched Gaara around, in the end Lee was KO'd, Gai was totally fine. Which even though Lee had worse circumstances, it does prove Gai can handle the gates better, because there is a huge difference between being KO'd and totally fine, even with the circumstances


Gai isn't THAT fast, people try to make him out to be godly speedy, just because he taught Lee to be fast, so because Lee is fat that means Gai must be 5x faster right?

Well Kakashi taught Sasuke to be just as fast as Lee, so following that logic Kakashi should be as fast as Gai.

Now before you say "well Sasuke is a genius", well Kakashi is a genius as well, their speed difference shouldn't be THAT much of a difference, Gai probably has the edge but not by that much.

Lets be honest, Gai probably trained himself many years to get as fast as he did, and he is pretty stupid (well lee level stupid) , Kakashi is a genius. Comparing Gai to Kakashi is like comparing Lee to chuunin exam Sasuke.

From what has been shown, Gai isn't that great without his gates, he is about Asuma level, if Gai were to fight Sharingan Kakashi to a stalemate, he'd definately need to open gates.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Rasengan isn't exactly ninjutsu, there is no handseals or even element nature, its pure chakra control, its Minato's move he taught Jiraiya and Jiraiya taught to Naruto. Jiraiya has lots of Ninjutsu, but Naruto has basically no normal ninjutsus besides kage bunshin which wasn't taught to him by Jiraiya. The point is still Naruto didn't really learn any regular Ninjutsu from Jiraiya (Jiraiya has lots of Ninjutsu) Sasuke didn't really learn much of Orochimaru's millions of ninjutsus, Sakura hasn't shown any jutsu (Does that mean Tsunade has zero? No.)


She says his senses and strength MAY exceed hers, but obviously he isn't that great that he needs to exploit her phobia while she hasn't fought in along time, if he was that much of a better fighter he could've taken her out easily. She didn't cheap shot him, they were in a fight, and he let his guard down because no ordinary person would beable to stand after that, and that one hit basically did take him out, if they carried on fighting Kabuto would have lost because he didn't have 100% control over his body, so he exploits her phobia.


Who is "they" ? Root? Besides Sai, we've only seen Danzou and one anbu looking guy from Root and like I said, they most likely wouldn't like anyone who has the Hokage title besides Danzou, they've never said anything about Tsunade specifically anyway. Well its Itachi, even dodging his attack and getting out of his genjutsu is a feat itself. I never said Tsunade being stronger then the rookie 9 is an accomplishment, thats just common sense. She was stated as Konoha's greatest Kunoichi ever, which means past as well.


And Gai fought Kisame for awhile as well and didn't do too good. The fact is, Gai opened up all his gates for a couple minutes and exerted more power then Lee who just basically punched Gaara around, in the end Lee was KO'd, Gai was totally fine. Which even though Lee had worse circumstances, it does prove Gai can handle the gates better, because there is a huge difference between being KO'd and totally fine, even with the circumstances


Gai isn't THAT fast, people try to make him out to be godly speedy, just because he taught Lee to be fast, so because Lee is fat that means Gai must be 5x faster right?

Well Kakashi taught Sasuke to be just as fast as Lee, so following that logic Kakashi should be as fast as Gai.

Now before you say "well Sasuke is a genius", well Kakashi is a genius as well, their speed difference shouldn't be THAT much of a difference, Gai probably has the edge but not by that much.

Lets be honest, Gai probably trained himself many years to get as fast as he did, and he is pretty stupid (well lee level stupid) , Kakashi is a genius. Comparing Gai to Kakashi is like comparing Lee to chuunin exam Sasuke.

From what has been shown, Gai isn't that great without his gates, he is about Asuma level, if Gai were to fight Sharingan Kakashi to a stalemate, he'd definately need to open gates. In Sasuke's case he HAS to know Orochimaru's jutsus. At least the ones he has seen. Maybe not all of them sure but a few at least. It's the basic trait of a sharingan user. Naruto is inept at learning hand seals, doesn't mean he can't but he's not exactly great at it, and ninjutsu would also not fit Naruto's fighting style. Just like he can summon but doesn't. Though that new jutsu isn't his Wind Rasengan perfected because it was mentioned way before he ever got it. And the Rasengan doesn't do anything remotely close to what the after-effects were shown of said technique. So it's a new jutsu of some kind that he can't use under his normal chakra. As for Tsunade...there isn't anything suggesting she knows anymore jutsu. We know Oro has more than he used because he learns Forbidden Techniques, we know Sasuke knows more than he uses because he has the sharingan, we know Kakashi knows more because he's said to, we know Jiraiya knows more because we've seen him use some, we know Sarutobi knows a lot more than he showed. Tsunade hasn't ever even been eluded to know anything other than what was shown.

He stopped her, or would have if she wouldn't had been so good at medical ninjutsu, though she was beaten, and paid no attention to her and went to brag. Then he was hit. That's a bit of a cheapshot when he easily dodged her when he saw her coming. And no he exploited her phobia AFTER help arrived. He survived a few hits from her, found out how to move his body right when it was screwed up, went to attack, and then Jiraiya, and the other appeared. Tsunade went to attack, and he exploited her phobia because the others were there to help her out. It wasn't just him vs her anymore. That doesn't say anything about how easily he was able to dodge her, how she was out of breath so quickly while Oro and Kabuto dodged her, and how he easily got hits on her.

In the newest manga we've seen a small group of people underground while Pein destroys Konoha waiting for Tsunade to loose so Danzou can become Hokage. Great past Kunoichi also. Who have no feats, and the girls in Konoha that do have feats are extremely weak. The strongest females have always come from different countries.

Not doing to good doesn't equal anything that happened to Lee. And yes Gai can handle the gates better but that's because his body is stronger while Lee had just learned that move and never really used it. That still doesn't mean anything when Gai used it for a minute if that not minutes. It doesn't take minutes to dodge a person's attack and then counter. And of course Gai looked better..Lee used it until he couldn't move anymore against a guy who was sheilding himself from most of the initial attack. Gai used it against a person who couldn't defend against it, and was just trying to delay them, and wasn't even at full power. Big difference in circumstances, and in length it was used.

Except Gai IS fast. I never said he was so much faster than Kakashi but both Kakashi and Gai are much faster than Lee ever was during the Chunnin exams. And still didn't say anything about the fact that Gai is extremely skilled in taijutsu while Naruto isn't. And the fact that Gai has studied the sharingan, and Naruto hasn't. And that Gai found a way to beat the sharingan, and Naruto doesn't know it. Asuma even says that only Gai could really know a persons movements by their feet.

Asuma, Kakashi, Gai they are all around the same level. Kakashi has his sharingan to make him more lethal than both but Gai found a way to cancel that advantage. Which means it would be Kakashi's skill vs Gai's skill. Pulling out the gates wouldn't be Gai's own skill. And you seem to think he'd use a forbidden technique in a friendly rivalry why? If Kakashi could just counter the speed why use something that would damage his body at that? It wouldn't make any sense. You keep saying the sharingan is why Gai would have to use the gates. But it makes no sense. Gai found a way to cancel the sharingan's ability to predict movement, and everything else. And it's a friendly sparring match. Gai also only used Gates on Kisame when he realized he had no other choice. So there isn't anything proving Gai would use gates so nonchalantly against Kakashi, who isn't a threat.

Originally posted by Kento
In Sasuke's case he HAS to know Orochimaru's jutsus. At least the ones he has seen. Maybe not all of them sure but a few at least. It's the basic trait of a sharingan user. Naruto is inept at learning hand seals, doesn't mean he can't but he's not exactly great at it, and ninjutsu would also not fit Naruto's fighting style. Just like he can summon but doesn't. Though that new jutsu isn't his Wind Rasengan perfected because it was mentioned way before he ever got it. And the Rasengan doesn't do anything remotely close to what the after-effects were shown of said technique. So it's a new jutsu of some kind that he can't use under his normal chakra. As for Tsunade...there isn't anything suggesting she knows anymore jutsu. We know Oro has more than he used because he learns Forbidden Techniques, we know Sasuke knows more than he uses because he has the sharingan, we know Kakashi knows more because he's said to, we know Jiraiya knows more because we've seen him use some, we know Sarutobi knows a lot more than he showed. Tsunade hasn't ever even been eluded to know anything other than what was shown.
Not exactly, unless he has his sharingan opened and has the intent to copy. Orochimaru only uses ninjutsu against worthy foes, in the 3 years, he most likely has not fought many worthy foes, either he dispatches them easily without ninjutsu, or he gets sasuke or kabuto to take them out. Naruto has never had trouble at learning handseals nor has it ever suggested he did, he had bad chakra control, thats it, how would Ninjutsu not fit his fighting style? Kage Bunshin (a ninjutsu) is already a big part of his fighting style. Her age, her title, her intelligence, basically most of her 50 years has been a big part of being a well known shinobi. Nothing suggests that she knows zero ninjutsu, YOU think she knows zero ninjutsu because she didn't use any in her 1 minute scuffle which is ridiculous to gauge that as her limit.


She underestimated him, he underestimated her, in the end Tsunade had the upperhand, until he exploited her phobia. It wasn't a cheap-shot, it's not like shes going to go and shout "Hey Kabuto, your attack actually didn't effect me, so keep your guard up" she had an opening to attack and did so. If he can "easily get hits on her" then he wouldn't have needed cut his wrist to exploit her phobia, he could've just dodged and neutralize her like he did in the beginning, but thats not the case because Tsunade isn't underestimating him anymore and he knew that. She wasn't "out of breath so quickly". The length of time she was chasing them is unknown, they both were breathing hard, also keep in mind that Kabuto took a soldier pill which increases speed and strength. And he definately did not "easily" dodge her.


Yeah those anbu looking guys but my point still stands, they have nogrudge against Tsunade they simply just want Danzou to be Hokage. I'm saying the girls are ranked pretty high in their generation compared to how few of them there are, Sakura for example is one of the more skilled out of the rookie 9, Kurenai is one of the more well known Jounins, the only useless female in the series is like, Ino.


Which is my point, Gai can handle the gates better then Lee, if you agree, why do you keep trying to debate it.

Well while the Gai had his gates on, some of it wasn't shown because it was focused on Neji and Lee, so we don't know what was ahppening during that time, Gai could've been dodging/attacking Kisame during that time, he most likely wasn't just standing there.

The bottom line is Gai was battered, not as battered as Lee.

Lee used it longer, Gai exerted more power.

Gai was totally fine, Lee was KO'd.


Well everyone tries to make Gai out to be ligh-speed fast, which he isn't. I'm comparing Sasuke to Lee, because most of the speculation around Gai is from how skilled Lee is, but Kakashi trained Sasuke to be above Lee. Kakashi is a genius like Sasuke, thats what i meant with Kakashi is to Gai what Sasuke is to Lee during the chuunin exams. Asuma says that because Gai is of course the best hand to hand taijutsu fighter in Konoha.


Honestly, Kakashi is above the rest of the Jounins, he was a genius of his time, and trained by the 4th Hokage. If Gai were to fight Kakashi while only looking at his feet, that would put a handicap on his Taijutsu, so given the fact that Kakashi is probably almost as fast as Gai, can predict him, and Gai has a handicap on, and Kakashi has his huge arsenal of Jutsu and his smarts (Gai isn't really that smart), Kakashi would beat him.

Why wouldn't pulling out the gates be his own skill? It's more of his skill then the sharingan is Kakashi's. Like Kakashi said, Lee must be a GENIUS to beable to open gates (not a genius of hard work, but an actual genius).

If they are sparring then they would probably be equal, in a sparring match Kakashi wouldn't use his sharingan, Gai wouldn't use his gates, Kakashi probably wouldn't even use much of his jutsu's.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Not exactly, unless he has his sharingan opened and has the intent to copy. Orochimaru only uses ninjutsu against worthy foes, in the 3 years, he most likely has not fought many worthy foes, either he dispatches them easily without ninjutsu, or he gets sasuke or kabuto to take them out. Naruto has never had trouble at learning handseals nor has it ever suggested he did, he had bad chakra control, thats it, how would Ninjutsu not fit his fighting style? Kage Bunshin (a ninjutsu) is already a big part of his fighting style. Her age, her title, her intelligence, basically most of her 50 years has been a big part of being a well known shinobi. Nothing suggests that she knows zero ninjutsu, YOU think she knows zero ninjutsu because she didn't use any in her 1 minute scuffle which is ridiculous to gauge that as her limit.


She underestimated him, he underestimated her, in the end Tsunade had the upperhand, until he exploited her phobia. It wasn't a cheap-shot, it's not like shes going to go and shout "Hey Kabuto, your attack actually didn't effect me, so keep your guard up" she had an opening to attack and did so. If he can "easily get hits on her" then he wouldn't have needed cut his wrist to exploit her phobia, he could've just dodged and neutralize her like he did in the beginning, but thats not the case because Tsunade isn't underestimating him anymore and he knew that. She wasn't "out of breath so quickly". The length of time she was chasing them is unknown, they both were breathing hard, also keep in mind that Kabuto took a soldier pill which increases speed and strength. And he definately did not "easily" dodge her.


Yeah those anbu looking guys but my point still stands, they have nogrudge against Tsunade they simply just want Danzou to be Hokage. I'm saying the girls are ranked pretty high in their generation compared to how few of them there are, Sakura for example is one of the more skilled out of the rookie 9, Kurenai is one of the more well known Jounins, the only useless female in the series is like, Ino.


Which is my point, Gai can handle the gates better then Lee, if you agree, why do you keep trying to debate it.

Well while the Gai had his gates on, some of it wasn't shown because it was focused on Neji and Lee, so we don't know what was ahppening during that time, Gai could've been dodging/attacking Kisame during that time, he most likely wasn't just standing there.

The bottom line is Gai was battered, not as battered as Lee.

Lee used it longer, Gai exerted more power.

Gai was totally fine, Lee was KO'd.


Well everyone tries to make Gai out to be ligh-speed fast, which he isn't. I'm comparing Sasuke to Lee, because most of the speculation around Gai is from how skilled Lee is, but Kakashi trained Sasuke to be above Lee. Kakashi is a genius like Sasuke, thats what i meant with Kakashi is to Gai what Sasuke is to Lee during the chuunin exams. Asuma says that because Gai is of course the best hand to hand taijutsu fighter in Konoha.


Honestly, Kakashi is above the rest of the Jounins, he was a genius of his time, and trained by the 4th Hokage. If Gai were to fight Kakashi while only looking at his feet, that would put a handicap on his Taijutsu, so given the fact that Kakashi is probably almost as fast as Gai, can predict him, and Gai has a handicap on, and Kakashi has his huge arsenal of Jutsu and his smarts (Gai isn't really that smart), Kakashi would beat him.

Why wouldn't pulling out the gates be his own skill? It's more of his skill then the sharingan is Kakashi's. Like Kakashi said, Lee must be a GENIUS to beable to open gates (not a genius of hard work, but an actual genius).

If they are sparring then they would probably be equal, in a sparring match Kakashi wouldn't use his sharingan, Gai wouldn't use his gates, Kakashi probably wouldn't even use much of his jutsu's. He's already used some or Oro's jutsu when Oro was absorbed inside of him.

It wouldn't because all of the jutsu Naruto does know are taijutsu based. Everything we've seen Jiraiya use is long-range. Though it looks like Naruto make be getting a long-range jutsu it isn't part of his fighting style. Just like Kakashi uses like only two jutsu out of his hundreds. And sure both Sakura and Tsunade have to know more jutsu. But at the least it's probably just low level stuff they needed to learn to pass the school. And it wasn't a minute fight. She CHASED Oro and Kabuto only using weak taijutsu skills, and lost to Kabuto using weak taijutsu skills. And what she did to Kabuto is exactly what Vegeta did to Gokou during th Buu Saga. Both thought the fight was ever, let their guard down, got beaten. What part about the phobia don't you get. Jiraiya, Shizune, and Naruto had shown up as he went to attack BEFORE he did the phobia. It wasn't until after they arrived to help he that he used that weakness to his advantage. It's not like he suddenly started getting beat up, and cut himself. He got beat, went to counter, help arrived before he could, he stopped, Tsunade charged, he stopped her from attacking. And he used a soldier pill because he said he's weak in taijutsu and speed. Yet he was able to dodge her all that time.

Not really. Kurenai had just become a Jounin recently, and she's only know because she leads Hinata's team. Hinata is pretty much useless and her little sister is stronger than her. Sakura is in the same boat Tsunade is. Limited taijutsu but extreme healing abilities. I'm pretty sure Anko is stronger than Kurenai, and probably the strongest know kunoichi under Tsunade from Konoha. Which still isn't saying much because Tsunade may have the chakra, and physical strength more than them but that doesn't make her extremely skilled at all.

Gai got hit once that is was shown, and his hand cut by trying to hold Samahade. Not exactly beaten up. And the point is while Gai's body may be able to hold it better Gai's little fight is in no way proof that Gai can. To many different circumstances. How can Gai extert more power? He used it briefly, Lee used it like three times in one fight that went on for a while and Lee was being beaten while Gai was barley touched when he used it.

Kakashi is only above the rest because of what the sharingan can do. Without using the sharingan, and having it covered the are all about even. And Kakashi doesn't use many jutsu in a life death situation..why would he use any more jutsu on Gai no matter what they are doing. Kakashi uses chidori, earth style, and sharingan. Maybe summoning the dogs. Nothing else unless he copies a jutsu which he couldn't do against a purely taijutsu fighter anyway. And it wouldn't be a handicap on Gai's jutsu. He taught himself to know how a person will move by looking at their feet because his rival is a sharingan user. And Gai may be weird but I wouldn't call him dumb. At least not when it comes to fighting.

It wouldn't be Gai's skill to use that gates because it's a forbidden, only use when there is no other choice jutsu. The gates are exactly like Kakashi's MS jutsu. A double edge sword. The lotus, and the gates are both double edged swords just like Kakashi using MS and Kamui. They only use them if they have no other choice but don't go around doing them randomly and for no reason. Much less in a match against each other.

What the hell are you two arguing about?

Originally posted by Kento
He's already used some or Oro's jutsu when Oro was absorbed inside of him.
Not really, he hasnt used any new ninjutsu that Orochimaru has taught him, if he taught him any, the only things he learned are his chidori moves, his uchiha katon moves, and summon.


Thats because all he knows is kage bunshin, and rasengan basically, thats why he resorts to taijutsu, and the jutsus that he knows, if he knew more he would use more, but he doesn't, its not that 'he refuses to learn anymore because its not part of his style' he just doesn't know anymore. But does that mean Jiraiya knows none then? No. Thats what i'm saying about the logic you are using about Tsunade and Sakura, just because you didn't see Sakura use any, it does not mean Tsunade knows none. What do you mean it was exactly like what Vegeta did to Goku? Thats totally different, in the Vegeta and Goku fight they called it a truce, and when goku turned around he attacked him from behind, now THAT is cheap. In the Kabuto and Tsunade fight, he attacked her and thought she was finished so he let his guard down, but it actually didn't effect her so she attacked back, how is that cheap? Attacking when her opponents guard is down? Should she wait til his guard is back up before attacking? Yeah Orochimaru and Kabuto were just running away. I know the three were there, but if he can beat her in about quickly like he did when she was undersestimating him, then he wouldn't have resorted to cutting himself to exploit her phobia, but he's not dumb, he know he can't, and thats why he had to cut himself to exploit her phobia


She's still above all the chuunins, all the special jounins shown in the series, which means she ranked pretty high in the village, considering there is so few females compared to males. Hinata is not useless, she's more useful then Kiba or even Chouji. Again you're assuming Tsunade is only capable of physical strength and healing, stop assuming thats only her limit by her 1 minute scuffle, its as ridiculous as saying the 1st Hokage is only capable of his Mokuton jutsu/darkness jutsu and nothing else.


Gai was hit by Kisame suiton suikoudan no jutsu, and pounded hard by Kisame, which is probably alot stronger then getting battered a couple times by genin Gaaras sand. Like i said, Gai used it for a couple minutes, Rock Lee used it for a few minutes. Gai exerted more power because he used the morning peacock, Lee was basically running around punching Gaara around. Lee was under worse circumstances, but he was KO'd, Gai was totally fine, which is a bigger difference then what the circumstance difference was.


No, Kakashi is a genius of his time, he became a jounin even before he obtained the Sharingan, at the age of 12-13. No, Kakashi uses all types of jutsus from water, earth, lightning, summons. It's not like if he's fighting a taijutsu person he won't beable to use any of those jutsus. He very well can use any of his different types of clones, even the lightning clones, etc. Gai's taijutsu is skilled enough that he can fight while looking at his opponents feet, it doesn't mean that he'll be able to fight at 100%, because its still a handicap. Gai hasn't done anything in or out of fighting to prove he is smarter then the average person.


It's forbidden because if not used properly it can kill the user, it still requires alot of skill to learn and use, just like Orochimaru has tons of kinjutsu but that doesn't take away from his "skill", Sharingan takes a toll on Kakashi's body as well because he doesn't have a regular Uchiha body. The only way Gai(without gates) would be equal with Kakashi is if Kakashi doesn't use his sharingan.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Not really, he hasnt used any new ninjutsu that Orochimaru has taught him, if he taught him any, the only things he learned are his chidori moves, his uchiha katon moves, and summon.


Thats because all he knows is kage bunshin, and rasengan basically, thats why he resorts to taijutsu, and the jutsus that he knows, if he knew more he would use more, but he doesn't, its not that 'he refuses to learn anymore because its not part of his style' he just doesn't know anymore. But does that mean Jiraiya knows none then? No. Thats what i'm saying about the logic you are using about Tsunade and Sakura, just because you didn't see Sakura use any, it does not mean Tsunade knows none. What do you mean it was exactly like what Vegeta did to Goku? Thats totally different, in the Vegeta and Goku fight they called it a truce, and when goku turned around he attacked him from behind, now THAT is cheap. In the Kabuto and Tsunade fight, he attacked her and thought she was finished so he let his guard down, but it actually didn't effect her so she attacked back, how is that cheap? Attacking when her opponents guard is down? Should she wait til his guard is back up before attacking? Yeah Orochimaru and Kabuto were just running away. I know the three were there, but if he can beat her in about quickly like he did when she was undersestimating him, then he wouldn't have resorted to cutting himself to exploit her phobia, but he's not dumb, he know he can't, and thats why he had to cut himself to exploit her phobia


She's still above all the chuunins, all the special jounins shown in the series, which means she ranked pretty high in the village, considering there is so few females compared to males. Hinata is not useless, she's more useful then Kiba or even Chouji. Again you're assuming Tsunade is only capable of physical strength and healing, stop assuming thats only her limit by her 1 minute scuffle, its as ridiculous as saying the 1st Hokage is only capable of his Mokuton jutsu/darkness jutsu and nothing else.


Gai was hit by Kisame suiton suikoudan no jutsu, and pounded hard by Kisame, which is probably alot stronger then getting battered a couple times by genin Gaaras sand. Like i said, Gai used it for a couple minutes, Rock Lee used it for a few minutes. Gai exerted more power because he used the morning peacock, Lee was basically running around punching Gaara around. Lee was under worse circumstances, but he was KO'd, Gai was totally fine, which is a bigger difference then what the circumstance difference was.


No, Kakashi is a genius of his time, he became a jounin even before he obtained the Sharingan, at the age of 12-13. No, Kakashi uses all types of jutsus from water, earth, lightning, summons. It's not like if he's fighting a taijutsu person he won't beable to use any of those jutsus. He very well can use any of his different types of clones, even the lightning clones, etc. Gai's taijutsu is skilled enough that he can fight while looking at his opponents feet, it doesn't mean that he'll be able to fight at 100%, because its still a handicap. Gai hasn't done anything in or out of fighting to prove he is smarter then the average person.


It's forbidden because if not used properly it can kill the user, it still requires alot of skill to learn and use, just like Orochimaru has tons of kinjutsu but that doesn't take away from his "skill", Sharingan takes a toll on Kakashi's body as well because he doesn't have a regular Uchiha body. The only way Gai(without gates) would be equal with Kakashi is if Kakashi doesn't use his sharingan. Sasuke uses a high level Orochimaru jutsu in his fight with Itachi. And before that I believe he's used snakes coming out of his sleeves.


Naruto wouldn't use any other moves if he did. Just like Kakashi doesn't use any other moves than what he always uses. We already know Jiraiya knows more jutsu. We've seen him use other jutsu in just the Sannin fight. All Tsunade did that whole fight is punch everything after she summons. And it's not the exact same circumstance as Vegeta/Gokou but it's still the same. Kabuto has shown he could dodge her, and he hit her making a normal person be down, and while he bragged she attacked while he was through fighting. He thought the fight was over, and without that she'd have never hit him. And you fail to grasp that he was going to attack her until Jiraiya arrived. He stopped his attack because they appeared in front of him. There is nothing to suggest he couldn't have beaten her had they not interfered. Naruto and Shizune basically double team him. He'd be stupid to try to fight them and have Tsunade attacking him.


Except we've seen some of the first's jutsu with the darkness. And I'm pretty sure all the first did use in jutsu was his mokuton just variations. Just like Haku only used variations of his ice jutsu, and Yamato only uses variations of his Mokuton. Yet I'm also sure he was a skilled fighter. And you keep saying Tsunade's fight was a minute..It was much longer than a minute yet you say Gai/Kisame fight was minutes and it was much shorter.

Kakashi's fights alway feature the same jutsu. His earth style traveling under ground, chidori, and sharingan. Yet he has hundreds and doesn't use them. But even though he doesn't use them we know he has them but why would he suddenly use them in a match against Gai when he doesn't anytime else. And Kakashi hasn't done anything either to be called a genius.

No it's forbidden because judy using it can hurt the body. It takes a toll on the body, and isn't something to use just because he can. He didn't use it on Kisame until he had no other choice why would he use it against Kakashi in a friendly match. And what proof is there that Gai has to use a deadly technique against Kakashi when he's already said to have beaten the only advantage a sharingan user would have?

@Jaxx - The Sannin and their pupils jutsu, Tsunade's fighting ability, and if Gai is only equal to Kakashi if he uses the gates.

Originally posted by Kento
Sasuke uses a high level Orochimaru jutsu in his fight with Itachi. And before that I believe he's used snakes coming out of his sleeves.

A high level jutsu in his fight with Itachi? You mean his lightning attack? Compared to Orochimaru's hundreds of thousands of jutsus, Sasuke hardly knows any.

Yes he would, he learned Kage Bunshin, he uses that all the time, he learned Rasengan, he uses that all the time, if he learned another jutsu he most definately would use it, nothing suggests he wouldn't. And what do you mean Kakashi doesn't use any other moves? Kakashi pulls out new jutsus in about EVERY fight, even in the movies. We know Jiraiya has more jutsus because we seen him fight alot more then Tsunade. Tsunade and Kabuto was hardly a fight, it was more like a scuffle, She underestimated him, he hit her points, she hit him back, he exploited her pobia, fight over. Thats hardly enough to say thats the only things she's capable of. No you're failing to undersatnd that if he can beat her in seconds, he would not need to cut himself to exploit her phobia, even if Jiraiya and Shizune were there. Seconds is seconds. If he were to attack her without 100% control over his body, and her not underestimating him anymore, he definately would have lost.


No, we've seen 2 jutsus, his mokuton and his darkness. So your saying the 1st hokage who defeated Madara, is only capable of his mokuton? Theres a difference between using a certain kenkei genkai often, 'just being capable of that'. Just because a ninja chooses to use their kekkei genkai often because it is their most powerful technique, it does not mean that thats the only thing they're capable of. Tsunade fight was a minute, it was mostly talking, minus the talking and all the fight was - Kabuto hit her points, she hit him back, jiraiya and them arrive, and the scuffle is over. In Gai and Kisame's fight, he unleashed his gates, went after him, screen changes to Lee and neji, they do what they do and escape the water prisons and beat up the clones, then screen goes back to Gai chasing kisame then dodges kisame and counters with morning peacock, in the anime it was a couple minutes, in the manga it was like 7 pages.


No, every fight he pulls out new jutsus, from opponents he has copied, Kisame praised him for knowing jutsus from his village, he knows a variety of water jutsus, he knows a variety of different ground jutsus, different clone jutsus, from like water clones, to shadow clones, to even lightning clones, and summoning jutsus. Kakashi hasn't done anything to be called a genius? Except becoming a jounin at the age of 12, fighting Kakuzu and Hidan at the same time, while protecting the kids, and at the same time helping shikamaru with his plan by taking a capsule of kakuzus blood, defeating the 30% itachi clone, almost taking out peins bodies. He has done more genius things then just about anyone on the show besides shikamaru.


Lots of jutsus can "hurt the body". No where is it stated that it will decrease their lifespan or anything like that. Why would Kakashi use his sharingan in a friendly match? Its the same reason. Keep in mind that opening gates is not as deadly to Gai as it is to Lee, Gai used it for a couple minutes and was totally fine. If they were to have a "friendly match" Kakashi wouldn't use his sharingan, and Gai wouldn't open gates anyway, then they would be equal.

Originally posted by Terryc250
A high level jutsu in his fight with Itachi? You mean his lightning attack? Compared to Orochimaru's hundreds of thousands of jutsus, Sasuke hardly knows any.

Yes he would, he learned Kage Bunshin, he uses that all the time, he learned Rasengan, he uses that all the time, if he learned another jutsu he most definately would use it, nothing suggests he wouldn't. And what do you mean Kakashi doesn't use any other moves? Kakashi pulls out new jutsus in about EVERY fight, even in the movies. We know Jiraiya has more jutsus because we seen him fight alot more then Tsunade. Tsunade and Kabuto was hardly a fight, it was more like a scuffle, She underestimated him, he hit her points, she hit him back, he exploited her pobia, fight over. Thats hardly enough to say thats the only things she's capable of. No you're failing to undersatnd that if he can beat her in seconds, he would not need to cut himself to exploit her phobia, even if Jiraiya and Shizune were there. Seconds is seconds. If he were to attack her without 100% control over his body, and her not underestimating him anymore, he definately would have lost.


No, we've seen 2 jutsus, his mokuton and his darkness. So your saying the 1st hokage who defeated Madara, is only capable of his mokuton? Theres a difference between using a certain kenkei genkai often, 'just being capable of that'. Just because a ninja chooses to use their kekkei genkai often because it is their most powerful technique, it does not mean that thats the only thing they're capable of. Tsunade fight was a minute, it was mostly talking, minus the talking and all the fight was - Kabuto hit her points, she hit him back, jiraiya and them arrive, and the scuffle is over. In Gai and Kisame's fight, he unleashed his gates, went after him, screen changes to Lee and neji, they do what they do and escape the water prisons and beat up the clones, then screen goes back to Gai chasing kisame then dodges kisame and counters with morning peacock, in the anime it was a couple minutes, in the manga it was like 7 pages.


No, every fight he pulls out new jutsus, from opponents he has copied, Kisame praised him for knowing jutsus from his village, he knows a variety of water jutsus, he knows a variety of different ground jutsus, different clone jutsus, from like water clones, to shadow clones, to even lightning clones, and summoning jutsus. Kakashi hasn't done anything to be called a genius? Except becoming a jounin at the age of 12, fighting Kakuzu and Hidan at the same time, while protecting the kids, and at the same time helping shikamaru with his plan by taking a capsule of kakuzus blood, defeating the 30% itachi clone, almost taking out peins bodies. He has done more genius things then just about anyone on the show besides shikamaru.


Lots of jutsus can "hurt the body". No where is it stated that it will decrease their lifespan or anything like that. Why would Kakashi use his sharingan in a friendly match? Its the same reason. Keep in mind that opening gates is not as deadly to Gai as it is to Lee, Gai used it for a couple minutes and was totally fine. If they were to have a "friendly match" Kakashi wouldn't use his sharingan, and Gai wouldn't open gates anyway, then they would be equal. No Kirin is Sasuke's own attack that isn't ninjutsu per se as it doesn't involve chakra. I'm talking about the move he used to dodge Amaterasu. The clone move that Itachi refers to as being on of Oro's. I don't remember the name.

No he wouldn't. Everybody pretty much uses the same jutsu in battle. And Kakashi hardly pulls out any new moves. Earth style is a move he always does, and Chidori is something he always does. Besides the new lightning clone, and copying a move somebody else is using to counter (Zabuza/Kisame) he never uses a new move. The only new thing he's really added he's began using a lot is Kamui and that's a dangerous move to use as it drains him considerably.

I never said Kabuto can beat her in seconds...I said he can beat her. Which he could have had the others not shown up. Just because he can beat her one-on-one doesn't mean he can beat her while she has Shizune helping her out from afar. So because Kabuto used her phobia to stop her when she had help he can't win one-on-one? Even though he was confident enough to attack her head on after he did some really genius thing to make his body work properly when a normal person wouldn't have been able to? He took her hit, survived, figured out how his body worked, and went to attack her AS they showed up. Yet Tsunade was surely going to win? He's the one who underestimated her not the other way around and it cost him a few punches nothing else.

So you're saying just because Shodaime beat Madara he must have tons more moves?

Fighting equals genius how?? And doing a plan created by somebody else is genius how? And being powerful is genius how? And Kakashi knows all those jutsu because of the sharingan not because he's some genius who learned them all. And yes Kakashi knows hundreds of jutsu but when does he ever use them. Seriously he uses his one earth style attack that moves underground, chidori, and sharingan. Not very diverse for somebody who knows hundreds more than that. He's used water style twice that I can recall and that was just because he copies the person he was fighting to counter their attack.

Um yea it will. If you open the last Gate you'll die. That's will really shorten the lifespan there. And not really. Very few if any jutsu put strain on the body the way the gates, and lotus do besides Kakashi's sharingan because it isn't compatible with his body.

Originally posted by Kento
No Kirin is Sasuke's own attack that isn't ninjutsu per se as it doesn't involve chakra. I'm talking about the move he used to dodge Amaterasu. The clone move that Itachi refers to as being on of Oro's. I don't remember the name.
Yeah the clone he got from absorbing Orochimaru, which is different from Orochimaru actually teaching him it.


Why wouldn't he? He doesn't because he doesn't know anymore jutsus, rasengan, kage bunshin, are basically the only jutsus he knows. Kakashi usually pulls out new jutsus in battle, the water barrier, water clones, water explosion, doton dyuheki, shadow clone, lightning clone, those were just off the top of my head that weren't just a similtanious copy move.


Why do you think he can beat her? If he can beat her why did he need to use a soldier pill? He got the hits when she underestimated him, and he cut off her muscles, then she hit him back, and had the upper hand at the end of the fight, he didn't have complete control over his body. Being confident to attack her head on means he is going to win? He was planning to exploit her phobia before Jiraiya came up, the fact is he JUST figured out how to move about 80% of his body, he says "you're afraid of blood right" which means he knew he couldn't defeat her and thats why he resorted to cutting himself, not that he did it because the 3 showed up, he planned to do it BEFORE the 3 showed up anyway.


No i'm saying because he was a great ninja, trained the 3rd hokage, it is MORE likely he has more then 2 jutsus.


Doing a plan created by someone else? Huh? Where is it stated that Shikamaru told Kakashi to get blood from Kakuzu? Kakashi got the blood by hiding in the trees and attacking. Being able to learn fast in the ninja world means your a genius. Its even stated a couple times in the manga that he's as smart as shikamaru. Right after Gaiden its said "He's smarter then Shikamaru, has a better sense of smell then Kiba, has better sharingan then Sasuke, and better taijutsu then Rock Lee" Like i said before, Kakashi always uses a new jutsu in about every fight, i don't see why you don't understand that. The only time we didn't see him use a new jutsu we haven't seen before is the fight against 30% Itachi which was really short.

Well obviously they aren't going to use the last gate unless they plan on committing suicide, shuriken rasengan is dangerous to naruto, opening gates can be dangerous to gai if he overdoes it, sharingan can be dangerous to kakashi if he overuses it.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Yeah the clone he got from absorbing Orochimaru, which is different from Orochimaru actually teaching him it.


Why wouldn't he? He doesn't because he doesn't know anymore jutsus, rasengan, kage bunshin, are basically the only jutsus he knows. Kakashi usually pulls out new jutsus in battle, the water barrier, water clones, water explosion, doton dyuheki, shadow clone, lightning clone, those were just off the top of my head that weren't just a similtanious copy move.


Why do you think he can beat her? If he can beat her why did he need to use a soldier pill? He got the hits when she underestimated him, and he cut off her muscles, then she hit him back, and had the upper hand at the end of the fight, he didn't have complete control over his body. Being confident to attack her head on means he is going to win? He was planning to exploit her phobia before Jiraiya came up, the fact is he JUST figured out how to move about 80% of his body, he says "you're afraid of blood right" which means he knew he couldn't defeat her and thats why he resorted to cutting himself, not that he did it because the 3 showed up, he planned to do it BEFORE the 3 showed up anyway.


No i'm saying because he was a great ninja, trained the 3rd hokage, it is MORE likely he has more then 2 jutsus.


Doing a plan created by someone else? Huh? Where is it stated that Shikamaru told Kakashi to get blood from Kakuzu? Kakashi got the blood by hiding in the trees and attacking. Being able to learn fast in the ninja world means your a genius. Its even stated a couple times in the manga that he's as smart as shikamaru. Right after Gaiden its said "He's smarter then Shikamaru, has a better sense of smell then Kiba, has better sharingan then Sasuke, and better taijutsu then Rock Lee" Like i said before, Kakashi always uses a new jutsu in about every fight, i don't see why you don't understand that. The only time we didn't see him use a new jutsu we haven't seen before is the fight against 30% Itachi which was really short.

Well obviously they aren't going to use the last gate unless they plan on committing suicide, shuriken rasengan is dangerous to naruto, opening gates can be dangerous to gai if he overdoes it, sharingan can be dangerous to kakashi if he overuses it. The fact he absorbed Oro, and used that move means he knows Oro's moves.

Why doesn't Sasuke use all the moves he knows? Why does Kakashi only use a few moves? Why did Sarutobi only use a few moves when he knows every jutsu in Konoha? And when has Kakashi used any of those water moves besides water clones?

Using a soldier pill doesn't amp you to inconcievable levels or Kiba could beat anybody. And it's not like it ever states the soldier pill wore off. No he got the hits because he was able to dodge her weak taijutsu skills. The only reason she got the upper hand at the end of the fight was because he thought the fight was over, wasn't looking at her, and then got hit making his body unable to move properly. And she still didn't one-shot him with her vast strength. She pretty much didn't hurt him at all and he was able to figure out how to move his body and was about to attack again. How does him saying that mean he was going to run up to her and cut himself if they hadn't arrived? There isn't anything to suggest he was going to do anything like that until they arrived to save her.

He probably does have more than two jutsu. But they are all probably based around Mokuton which is what I said. He knows Mokuton, and the darkness jutsu. Just because his student, who surpassed him in strength, learned a lot of jutsu doesn't mean he knows any other jutsu beside variations with his Mokuton.

Shikamaru was the one who gave Kakashi the capsule to get the blood. It was all part of Shikamaru's plan to beat Hidan. Kakashi hid because it was part of the plan to sneak attack. Kakashi didn't come up with it on his own. You're using a line by Naruto about his teacher to prove Kakashi is a genius? What has Kakashi ever done that is genius. And using jutsu he learns automatically isn't genius because of his sharingan. Kakashi hasn't done any brillant plans, he didn't learn any moves by his own learning. He's strong, fast, and a good fighter but he's not some genius strategist or anything like that. In the Zabuza fight he copies Zabuza's water moves, then uses summon, and chidori, his next fight is a bunch of no-name ninja, then he fights Itachi, and does nothing new, and pulls out Kamui against Deidara. What does he do new against Kakuzu? And now all he did knew was a variant chidori, and lightning clone.

Originally posted by Kento
The fact he absorbed Oro, and used that move means he knows Oro's moves.

He was able to use it BECAUSE he absorbed Orochimaru, its not something Orochimaru taught him how to do.

EXACTLY, i think you're starting understanding my point now, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesnt exist, just because you didn't see Tsunade do any jutsus in a minute, doesn't mean she has zero jutsus. Kakashi did the water explosion against Zabuza. Water clone against itachi, water barrier against itachi.


I never said it did, but it does give you a boost. The soldier pill wouldn't wear off that fast. Yeah because she underestimated him and was justu aiming to one shot him like an "ordinary ninja" she's capable of using the same kind medical enhancements, but didn't. Obviously, she just got her muscles cut which means she needs time to recover her enourmous strength again. WHAT? Nothing suggests he wasn't going to exploit her phobia?? How about him saying:
"You're afraid of blood right?"
"I'll show you some now!"

He says this BEFORE the 3 arrive.


Based around mokuton? The darkness jutsu isn't based around Mokuton at all, which means he's obviously capable of learning different kinds of jutsu.


Says who? Kakshi gave Shikamaru the capsule, it's shown in the picture, nothing says Shikamaru told Kakashi to get it, the fact that he didn't say it was "MY" plan, means it wasn't exactly HIS plan, so either they planned it together, or Kakashi told him what to do with it. Kakashi became a jounin at the age of 12-13, only a genius can do that. Most people think that being a Jounin just requires good fighting ability which is totally wrong. A jounin needs to be well all-around with brains included. Take genin Neji, and Sasuke for example, they had atleast a chuunin level of fighting ability, but they didn't have the rest of the requirements and thats why they didn't pass the chuunin exam. a chuunin should be able to teach at the academy for beginner ninjas. Kakashi was a Jounin skill-level at the age of like 12, which means he has the around the same level of fighting tactics/brains as Asuma, etc, and can lead a genin team.

Against the first fight, he used water explosion, Zabuza didn't, Kakashi already knew that move, summoning the dogs was new, he fights itachi and does water barrier, water clone, things we've never seen. He used douton dyuheki, and raiton bunshin against Pein, Kakashi never actually fought Deidara, just did an attack against him thats it. Kakuzu was about the only fight where he didn't do anything "new" because he had to bust out 4 raikiri's right at the beginning of the fight, to save the kids. Wasting anymore chakra on jutsus would be stupid.

Originally posted by Terryc250
He was able to use it BECAUSE he absorbed Orochimaru, its not something Orochimaru taught him how to do.

EXACTLY, i think you're starting understanding my point now, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesnt exist, just because you didn't see Tsunade do any jutsus in a minute, doesn't mean she has zero jutsus. Kakashi did the water explosion against Zabuza. Water clone against itachi, water barrier against itachi.


I never said it did, but it does give you a boost. The soldier pill wouldn't wear off that fast. Yeah because she underestimated him and was justu aiming to one shot him like an "ordinary ninja" she's capable of using the same kind medical enhancements, but didn't. Obviously, she just got her muscles cut which means she needs time to recover her enourmous strength again. WHAT? Nothing suggests he wasn't going to exploit her phobia?? How about him saying:
"You're afraid of blood right?"
"I'll show you some now!"

He says this BEFORE the 3 arrive.


Based around mokuton? The darkness jutsu isn't based around Mokuton at all, which means he's obviously capable of learning different kinds of jutsu.


Says who? Kakshi gave Shikamaru the capsule, it's shown in the picture, nothing says Shikamaru told Kakashi to get it, the fact that he didn't say it was "MY" plan, means it wasn't exactly HIS plan, so either they planned it together, or Kakashi told him what to do with it. Kakashi became a jounin at the age of 12-13, only a genius can do that. Most people think that being a Jounin just requires good fighting ability which is totally wrong. A jounin needs to be well all-around with brains included. Take genin Neji, and Sasuke for example, they had atleast a chuunin level of fighting ability, but they didn't have the rest of the requirements and thats why they didn't pass the chuunin exam. a chuunin should be able to teach at the academy for beginner ninjas. Kakashi was a Jounin skill-level at the age of like 12, which means he has the around the same level of fighting tactics/brains as Asuma, etc, and can lead a genin team.

Against the first fight, he used water explosion, Zabuza didn't, Kakashi already knew that move, summoning the dogs was new, he fights itachi and does water barrier, water clone, things we've never seen. He used douton dyuheki, and raiton bunshin against Pein, Kakashi never actually fought Deidara, just did an attack against him thats it. Kakuzu was about the only fight where he didn't do anything "new" because he had to bust out 4 raikiri's right at the beginning of the fight, to save the kids. Wasting anymore chakra on jutsus would be stupid. I never said he was taught. I just said he has to know some because of the sharingan.

When did he do exploding water clone against Zabuza? I know he did regular water clone after copying during battle but I don't remember exploding one.

He also says it's time to get serious right before he attacks, and your forgot one thing he says during that. He says he's going to spill her blood until she's on the brink of death. What part of threatning to spill her blood, and charging at her makes you think he's going to cut himself?

Yes, attacks based on his wood jutsu. Just like Haku has different attacks but all based on his ice jutsu. And the mist use water based attacks. And all the different chidori variants Sasuke uses. I never said the darkness was part of Mokuton, and all ninja can learn different jutsu. But they don't. There is no reason to think that Shodai knows any other types besides all his wood jutsu.

Kakashi knew nothing about Hidan or Kakuzu why would he come up with a plan about people he didn't know. It was Shikamaru's fight, the team was going to go without Kakashi until Tsunade stopped them, and then Shikamaru tells the others his plan while changing parts to fit Kakashi in. All Kakashi did was follow the plan, and then fight Kakuzu until Naruto arrived.

Kakashi used his Earth Style move in his fight against Sasuke, and agains Itachi. It wasn't anything new against Pein.

Originally posted by Kento
I never said he was taught. I just said he has to know some because of the sharingan.
My point was that Orochimaru, Tsunade, Jiraiya never really taught their students ninjutsus. Which was what you were trying to use to claim that Tsunade knows zero ninjutsus, because she didn't teach Sakura any.


I never said he did an exploding water clone against Zabuza. He did water explosion against Zabuza, the first time he defeated Zabuza. The water dragon jutsu, Kakashi copied, then after that Kakashi did the water explosion which defeated Zabuza.


Which doesn't mean anything except a taunt, he knew blood was his trump card, whether it would be from him or her, he was going to use it to his advantage. The fact that he's going to use blood to defeat her instead of neutralize her like he was originally going to do. Charging at her without full control over his body would mean he would most likely lose, however his confidence comes from him having his trump card to exploit her phobia.


You're not understanding, the 1st hokage uses mostly mokuton jutsu because thats his best jutsu, it does NOT mean thats the only thing he's capable of, just "mokuton" jutsus, the fact that he knows DARKNESS jutsu (which has nothing to do with mokuto) means he's obviously capable of learning other jutsus. Sasuke is capable of learning other jutsus as well, like katon for example.


You really think Shikamaru just hid the abilities of Hidan and Kakuzu from Kakashi? Obviously they told him, and he incorperated his own abilities into the plan. Its not like Shikamaru expected Ino, or Chouji to get Hidans blood, only Kakashi is capable of that.


Kakashi NEVER used doton doryuheki on itachi or sasuke, that was the first time we've seen him use it.

Originally posted by Terryc250
My point was that Orochimaru, Tsunade, Jiraiya never really taught their students ninjutsus. Which was what you were trying to use to claim that Tsunade knows zero ninjutsus, because she didn't teach Sakura any.


I never said he did an exploding water clone against Zabuza. He did water explosion against Zabuza, the first time he defeated Zabuza. The water dragon jutsu, Kakashi copied, then after that Kakashi did the water explosion which defeated Zabuza.


Which doesn't mean anything except a taunt, he knew blood was his trump card, whether it would be from him or her, he was going to use it to his advantage. The fact that he's going to use blood to defeat her instead of neutralize her like he was originally going to do. Charging at her without full control over his body would mean he would most likely lose, however his confidence comes from him having his trump card to exploit her phobia.


You're not understanding, the 1st hokage uses mostly mokuton jutsu because thats his best jutsu, it does NOT mean thats the only thing he's capable of, just "mokuton" jutsus, the fact that he knows DARKNESS jutsu (which has nothing to do with mokuto) means he's obviously capable of learning other jutsus. Sasuke is capable of learning other jutsus as well, like katon for example.


You really think Shikamaru just hid the abilities of Hidan and Kakuzu from Kakashi? Obviously they told him, and he incorperated his own abilities into the plan. Its not like Shikamaru expected Ino, or Chouji to get Hidans blood, only Kakashi is capable of that.


Kakashi NEVER used doton doryuheki on itachi or sasuke, that was the first time we've seen him use it. If you want to get technical. Tsunade and Jiraiya both taught their students ninjutsu. Tsunade taught medical ninjutsu to Sakura, and Jiraiya taught Rasengan and variations on it, and summoning jutsu. Oro was the only one not shown to teach Sasuke a new jutsu.

If he was going to cut himself he wouldn't have thought to himself it was time to get serious, and charged at her. He'd have just cut himself. He was attacking her, and threatning to cut her. Not himself at all. It wasn't until three other people showed up he realized he couldn't win. After all it would be hard to fight Tsunade with Naruto, and Shizune helping out, which they would have. And if Jiraiya decided to do something it was even less possible to win. Taking her out with her phobia was the only thing he could do and survive. Which has nothing to do with what he was going to do before the arrived.

Everybody is capable of learning other jutsu that the element they always use. Doesn't mean they do learn them. Just because he could have doesn't mean he did.

Because Shikamaru saying he's revising the plan to FIT in Kakashi means nothing? Shikamaru already had the plan, and just added Kakashi while tweaking it a bit. There is nothing to suggest it was Kakashi's plan. Kakashi just went along to help because Tsunade wouldn't let them go alone.

Which Earth style move are you talking about? Because the only Earth style move I remember him doing was when he came up from under the ground to attack Pein. Just like he came up from the ground, and pulled Sasuke under, and just like he came up from underground against Itachi after using the clone to trick him.

Originally posted by Kento
If you want to get technical. Tsunade and Jiraiya both taught their students ninjutsu. Tsunade taught medical ninjutsu to Sakura, and Jiraiya taught Rasengan and variations on it, and summoning jutsu. Oro was the only one not shown to teach Sasuke a new jutsu.
Those aren't neccesarily Ninjutsu, the main 3 jutsus are ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu, then there are other jutsus like sealingjutsu and summoning jutsu. Rasengan, Medical Jutsu doesn't neccearily fall into the Ninjutsu category, ninjutsu usually requires handseals, chakra, and an element. Rasengan and and Medical jutsus are jutsus but they don't exactly fall into one of the 3 categories. Jiraiya didn't teach any ninjutsu to Naruto because Rasengan isn't really ninjutsu, he taught him summoning yes, and orochimaru taught sasuke summoning, sakura doesn't know how to summon, but does that mean Tsunade doesn't know how to summon? Nope. Thats why comparing students to teachers is fallacy.


He basically says he was going to exploit her phobia right before the 3 show up, which means he charged at her with an intent on doing so, whether it be her blood or his, it was his trump card. Thats why he was so confident, but he most likely wasn't going to win because well, he didn't ahve control over his body, but even if he didn't win he could always cut himself to gain the upper hand.


Why wouldn't he? Just because he specializes in mokuton doesn't mean he doesn't know any other kinds of jutsus, darkness jutsu is proof that he went out of his way to learn a jutsu not related to mokuton.


Nothing suggested that Kakashi didn't help him with the plan, after-all who knows Kakashi's abilities more then Kakashi himself? Hence why Shikamaru said it was "our" plan, and not "my" plan.


Doton Doryuuheki, where he brings up a ground wall surrounding his opponent so that his opponent cannot escape, we've seen the 3rd Hokage do it, but kakashi's wasn't anywhere as big as the 3rd's

Originally posted by Terryc250
Those aren't neccesarily Ninjutsu, the main 3 jutsus are ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu, then there are other jutsus like sealingjutsu and summoning jutsu. Rasengan, Medical Jutsu doesn't neccearily fall into the Ninjutsu category, ninjutsu usually requires handseals, chakra, and an element. Rasengan and and Medical jutsus are jutsus but they don't exactly fall into one of the 3 categories. Jiraiya didn't teach any ninjutsu to Naruto because Rasengan isn't really ninjutsu, he taught him summoning yes, and orochimaru taught sasuke summoning, sakura doesn't know how to summon, but does that mean Tsunade doesn't know how to summon? Nope. Thats why comparing students to teachers is fallacy.


He basically says he was going to exploit her phobia right before the 3 show up, which means he charged at her with an intent on doing so, whether it be her blood or his, it was his trump card. Thats why he was so confident, but he most likely wasn't going to win because well, he didn't ahve control over his body, but even if he didn't win he could always cut himself to gain the upper hand.


Why wouldn't he? Just because he specializes in mokuton doesn't mean he doesn't know any other kinds of jutsus, darkness jutsu is proof that he went out of his way to learn a jutsu not related to mokuton.


Nothing suggested that Kakashi didn't help him with the plan, after-all who knows Kakashi's abilities more then Kakashi himself? Hence why Shikamaru said it was "our" plan, and not "my" plan.


Doton Doryuuheki, where he brings up a ground wall surrounding his opponent so that his opponent cannot escape, we've seen the 3rd Hokage do it, but kakashi's wasn't anywhere as big as the 3rd's Rasengan is a ninjutsu. It doesn't require handseals but it's still ninjutsu. And isn't it called Medical Ninjutsu? Hmm I wonder if Sakura would have the chakra to summon Katsuya.


There is a big difference in exploiting a phobia like he does after they show up, and him threatning to nearly kill her by making her bleed to death.

Knowing the darkness jutsu doesn't mean he knows any other jutsu not mokuton related either. There isn't any proof he learned anything else. Just like there isn't any proof that Nidaime knows anything but water attacks.

There isn't anything to suggest Kakashi had any input. And Shikamaru knows enough about Kakashi to use him to do that. He was sitting right there when Sasuke does Chidori and Gai explains that it's Kakashi's signature move. I seriously doubt he's forgotten how powerful Chidori was by genin Sasuke, and could guess how skilled Kakashi would be in it, and how easy it would be to hit a stationary opponent. It's not like he made Kakashi do something incredible that only Kakashi should know about like use Kamui to end it instantly while they were captured.

Originally posted by Kento
Rasengan is a ninjutsu. It doesn't require handseals but it's still ninjutsu. And isn't it called Medical Ninjutsu? Hmm I wonder if Sakura would have the chakra to summon Katsuya.

Rasengan doesn't require handseals, or even element, theres hardly anything Ninjutsu about it, The typical ninjutsu is handseals, chakra, element, then the shouting of "Nimpo, Katon - Ryuuka no Jutsu" or something like that. Its hard to tell what Rasengan is because it has no handseals, no element, or anything, its just a ball of controlled chakra. It can maybe even be considered taijutsu, because alot of Taijutsu requires chakra to be gathered at a point of the body, and doesn't require an element or handseals.


He says "So you're afraid of blood" which is basically saying he's going to exploit her phobia, which is blood. It's not like he says "i'm going to kill you".


I'm saying he most likely knows more then just the two jutsus, sometimes we have to just go by logic, just because you only see something does not mean its all the character has, Kakashi for example, we've seen quite a few of his jutsus, does that mean he's only capable of those jutsus that we've seen? No, he has much more, it was even stated he copied over a thousand jutsus. Or even Orochimaru, you really think he's only capable of doing the jutsus we've seen? He probably has thousands of more jutsus.


He obviously didn't know what Kakashi was going to do, look at his face expression
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11886/page.16/

Again, it wasn't entirely Shikamaru's plan to have Kakashi use chidori or whatever, in the picture it shows KAKASHI saw with his sharingan the element type of jutsu, and he used what was best against it, Shikamaru obviously didn't know what he was going to do, thats why he has the surprised look on his face, they both planned it together, hence he said it was "our" plan, and not "my" plan.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Rasengan doesn't require handseals, or even element, theres hardly anything Ninjutsu about it, The typical ninjutsu is handseals, chakra, element, then the shouting of "Nimpo, Katon - Ryuuka no Jutsu" or something like that. Its hard to tell what Rasengan is because it has no handseals, no element, or anything, its just a ball of controlled chakra. It can maybe even be considered taijutsu, because alot of Taijutsu requires chakra to be gathered at a point of the body, and doesn't require an element or handseals.


He says "So you're afraid of blood" which is basically saying he's going to exploit her phobia, which is blood. It's not like he says "i'm going to kill you".


I'm saying he most likely knows more then just the two jutsus, sometimes we have to just go by logic, just because you only see something does not mean its all the character has, Kakashi for example, we've seen quite a few of his jutsus, does that mean he's only capable of those jutsus that we've seen? No, he has much more, it was even stated he copied over a thousand jutsus. Or even Orochimaru, you really think he's only capable of doing the jutsus we've seen? He probably has thousands of more jutsus.


He obviously didn't know what Kakashi was going to do, look at his face expression
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11886/page.16/

Again, it wasn't entirely Shikamaru's plan to have Kakashi use chidori or whatever, in the picture it shows KAKASHI saw with his sharingan the element type of jutsu, and he used what was best against it, Shikamaru obviously didn't know what he was going to do, thats why he has the surprised look on his face, they both planned it together, hence he said it was "our" plan, and not "my" plan. It's an incomplete ninjutsu the 4th was making of course it doesn't have elemental nature to it. And they don't say any elemental name to chidori but it's still a ninjutsu. Both Rasengan and Chidori are both said by their one name..or in Kakashi's case the nickname. The 4th developed it without handseals. That doesn't suddenly make it not a ninjutsu.

Because he isn't going to kill her..He pretty much makes that clear with the last part he says of that. He was going to attack her, and slice her up to make her bleed nearly to death. He stopped his original plan of attack because they showed up right in front of him. He wouldn't have went towards her if he was planning on cutting himself. It doesn't matter what he was going to do with her phobia or whatever the point is his original plan was to cut slice her up and make her suffer.

Kakashi, Sarutobi, Orochimaru, and even Itachi are completely different than everybody else. Kakashi, and Itachi can automatically copy moves, Oro's who purpose was learning forbidden ninjutsu, and Sarutobi is specifically stated to know ever jutsu in Konoha. Neji can go learn Katon jutsu if he wanted. But he isn't. Just like Shodaime could know plenty of other types of jutsu. There is probably a better chance that he doesn't than he does.

The whole plan was for one of them to get Kakuzu's blood. And Shikamaru knew his ability was to harden. Shikamaru may not have told him to do Chidori but him not attacking with the others, him getting the blood, and Shika leaving with Hidan was Shikamaru's plan. The way they attacked, the formation, and when they attacked.

Originally posted by Kento
It's an incomplete ninjutsu the 4th was making of course it doesn't have elemental nature to it. And they don't say any elemental name to chidori but it's still a ninjutsu. Both Rasengan and Chidori are both said by their one name..or in Kakashi's case the nickname. The 4th developed it without handseals. That doesn't suddenly make it not a ninjutsu.
..chidori is obviously a lightning nature.. Rasengan is pure chakra. There's really nothing ninjutsu about Rasengan, there's no handseals, no element nature, or anything.


At first he was going to just neutralize her, that failed, then obviously his plan b was to exploit her phobia, why? Because he isn't able to neutralize her. Hence why he says "You're afraid of blood, i'll show you blood now" <-- that means he is going to exploit her phobia. He ran at her with an intent to fight her, with obvious confidence that he can exploit her phobia.


Almost any ninja can learn their nature type of jutsu, and any jutsu that doesn't require a nature type, for example Henge jutsu, or Bunshin jutsu. Those are things even kids ninjas can do. More skilled ninjas can learn other jutsus, different kinds of bunshins, etc. Which goes back to my point that both first and second Hokage probably know alot more then just the jutsus they have shown.


Thats all just speculation. All we know is that it was "their" plan and not "shikamaru's" plan, judging by Shikarmaru's reaction, he did not know what Kakashi was going to do.

Originally posted by Terryc250
..chidori is obviously a lightning nature.. Rasengan is pure chakra. There's really nothing ninjutsu about Rasengan, there's no handseals, no element nature, or anything.


At first he was going to just neutralize her, that failed, then obviously his plan b was to exploit her phobia, why? Because he isn't able to neutralize her. Hence why he says "You're afraid of blood, i'll show you blood now" <-- that means he is going to exploit her phobia. He ran at her with an intent to fight her, with obvious confidence that he can exploit her phobia.


Almost any ninja can learn their nature type of jutsu, and any jutsu that doesn't require a nature type, for example Henge jutsu, or Bunshin jutsu. Those are things even kids ninjas can do. More skilled ninjas can learn other jutsus, different kinds of bunshins, etc. Which goes back to my point that both first and second Hokage probably know alot more then just the jutsus they have shown.


Thats all just speculation. All we know is that it was "their" plan and not "shikamaru's" plan, judging by Shikarmaru's reaction, he did not know what Kakashi was going to do. Rasengan is also incomplete. That's the only reason it had no elemental nature. It also seems to be impossible to mix with elemental chakra since Kakashi can't do it.

There is still a difference in him cutting himself and him cutting her. The latter was his original plan he just changed it to cutting himself when they showed up. He was going to show Tsunade her own blood.

Like I said just because the could know more doesn't mean they do. Most ninja never show more than one type of jutsu unless they are sharingan users with special exceptions to Sarutobi and Orochimaru.

Not knowing what attack he was going to do, because Kakashi realized the ninjutsu was Earth-type, doesn't mean Kakashi hanging back to attack last wasn't part of Shikamaru's plan. And saying 'their' plan could include Ino, and Chouji also. As in the team's plan. He says it didn't matter who got the blood the plan was just to get Kakuzu's blood.

Originally posted by Kento
Rasengan is also incomplete. That's the only reason it had no elemental nature. It also seems to be impossible to mix with elemental chakra since Kakashi can't do it.
Its only possible for Naruto. No one else, other people can learn Rasengan but it's impossible to add the wind nature unless you have that kind of training only Naruto can do.


Nothing suggests he would have or could have done it, the fact that he wasn't even able to control 100% of his body means most likely he would've lost to Tsunade.


Special exceptions to Sarutobi and Orochimaru? What about the First Hokage? Darkness has nothing to do with his element. What about Asuma? He was able to use Fireball jutsu. All great ninjas should be versed in different kinds of jutsus, ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu.


Yes exactly, the teams plan, which means he had help with it, it was of course Kakashi's idea to hide and observe with his sharingan, Shikamaru did not know of that. The rest is just speculation.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Its only possible for Naruto. No one else, other people can learn Rasengan but it's impossible to add the wind nature unless you have that kind of training only Naruto can do.


Nothing suggests he would have or could have done it, the fact that he wasn't even able to control 100% of his body means most likely he would've lost to Tsunade.


Special exceptions to Sarutobi and Orochimaru? What about the First Hokage? Darkness has nothing to do with his element. What about Asuma? He was able to use Fireball jutsu. All great ninjas should be versed in different kinds of jutsus, ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu.


Yes exactly, the teams plan, which means he had help with it, it was of course Kakashi's idea to hide and observe with his sharingan, Shikamaru did not know of that. The rest is just speculation. Cutting her would draw blood..Which would probably stop her from doing anything. The original plan was to cut her, which would probably result in her phobia taking over to stop her from healing, and nearly kill her in the process. He resorted to cutting himself because other interfered.

I'm gonna have to read Asuma's death again. I don't remember him doing any fireball jutsu. And yes every Jonin is suppose to have two elemental natures anyway. That being said it doesn't mean they use them. Neji should have two elemental natures. But I seriously doubt he's going to be pulling out anything not related to the Gentle Fist style of fighting. Gai should have two nature elements but I highly doubt we're going to see him doing anything not taijutsu. And just because Shodaime knows one thing unrelated to Mokuton doesn't mean he know that many jutsu at all.

I seriously doubt Chouji or Ino would help come up with any of the plan. And your just assuming Kakashi made up his part of the plan. Even though before they fight Shikamaru tells them his plan and for everybody to remember their part. He doesn't ask for input or anything. He already had the plan figured out before he even left Konoha. That was the only reason he left when he did. Because he had a plan figured out, and then just improvised on what he already had to include a fourth person.

Originally posted by Kento
Cutting her would draw blood..Which would probably stop her from doing anything. The original plan was to cut her, which would probably result in her phobia taking over to stop her from healing, and nearly kill her in the process. He resorted to cutting himself because other interfered.
Which is him exploiting her phobia, his original plan was to neutralize her by disabling her muscles, that plan failed.


Yes thats how he got the burns on him, he shot the fireball at Hidan while Hidan cursed him. You're either an expert in one thing, or you're not, no one in the series is restricted to only 2 jutsus. Shodaime uses mokuton, but the fact that he also uses darkness jutsu means he learns other jutsus, not just his mokuton and his darkness jutsu. He was the one who taught the Sarutobi, so of course he probably taught Sarutobi some jutsus when he was younger. Gai probably knows more jutsus then just taijutsu, he probably taught tenten how to summon weapons, but he is a taijutsu expert so he mainly fights with taijutsu.


So then if chouji or ino didn't help with the plan, he probably meant "our" meaning him and kakashi. You don't see the entire discussion of the plan, so again its speculation. Nothing said that he didn't have help improvising Kakashi's part, again Kakashi knows his own abilities better then anyone, obviously Kakashi helped him on the part to attain the blood, thats why its their plan and not shikamaru's plan, and thats why shikamaru had the 'surprised' expression, and not the 'expected' expression

Originally posted by Terryc250
Which is him exploiting her phobia, his original plan was to neutralize her by disabling her muscles, that plan failed.


Yes thats how he got the burns on him, he shot the fireball at Hidan while Hidan cursed him. You're either an expert in one thing, or you're not, no one in the series is restricted to only 2 jutsus. Shodaime uses mokuton, but the fact that he also uses darkness jutsu means he learns other jutsus, not just his mokuton and his darkness jutsu. He was the one who taught the Sarutobi, so of course he probably taught Sarutobi some jutsus when he was younger. Gai probably knows more jutsus then just taijutsu, he probably taught tenten how to summon weapons, but he is a taijutsu expert so he mainly fights with taijutsu.


So then if chouji or ino didn't help with the plan, he probably meant "our" meaning him and kakashi. You don't see the entire discussion of the plan, so again its speculation. Nothing said that he didn't have help improvising Kakashi's part, again Kakashi knows his own abilities better then anyone, obviously Kakashi helped him on the part to attain the blood, thats why its their plan and not shikamaru's plan, and thats why shikamaru had the 'surprised' expression, and not the 'expected' expression Both of their original plans failed. I meant after her figured out how to move his original plan was to nearly kill her not cut himself.

I said two elemental types. Kakashi even says that Jonin use two elements and that bloodline limits are two elements put together. Shodai could possible use jutsu from the two elements that create Mokuton. But that doesn't mean he knows many if any at all. Or any strong ones. The darkness thing is genjutsu. Just because he knows one genjutsu doesn't mean he know anything else. And Nidaime and Shodaime both taught Sarutobi not just Shodaime. Which really has no bearing on what Sarutobi knows since he knows more jutsu than anybody.

What makes you think he taught Ten-Ten weapons? He didn't teach Neji any of his attacks, Asuma didn't teach anything to his kids, Kurenai didn't teach anything to her kids, and Kakashi didn't teach anything to Naruto and Sakura. Gai, and Kakashi were only shown to teach anything to their favorite student.

http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11889/page.5/

Shikamaru even says it doesn't matter who did it they just needed Kakuzu's blood in a capsule. Just because Kakashi decided to use Chidori after seeing Kakuzu use an Earth style to protect himself just means he probably improvised a bit. Doesn't mean he changed the plan just used a different attack that wouldn't take a genius to realize since lightning > earth. He says 'That was our strategy' yes. But that hardly means the others came up with anything.

Originally posted by Kento
@Jaxx - The Sannin and their pupils jutsu, Tsunade's fighting ability, and if Gai is only equal to Kakashi if he uses the gates. Only one of those is actually on-topic. Whoa.

Originally posted by Kento
Both of their original plans failed. I meant after her figured out how to move his original plan was to nearly kill her not cut himself.

He had 80% of his body figured out, he ran towards her, where do you think his confidence comes from? Most likely the fact that he can at any point exploit her phobia like he taunted about her being afraid of blood.


No, each individual LEANS towards an element, Kakashi said to become a Jounin you need to beable to control a MINIMUM of two chakra elements, meaning people can use more then that, he said Jounins have ATLEAST two, however naturally one person leans towards an element. Shodai uses Earth and Water to create his Mokuton, Shodai ATLEAST has water jutsus, and earth jutsus, and probably even different element jutsus as well, because remember two elements are only a MINIMUM (to become a jounin). Take a look at Yamato for example, you think he only knows Mokuton jutsus because that was the only thing he used in battle right? Wrong, in his demonstration he did the "Doton: Doryuuheki" then "Suiton: Takitsubo", and Yamato isn't even one of the more experienced Jounin, he is one of the younger ones. A great ninja like Shodaime who defeated Madara, besides his mokuton probably has many great Suiton and Doton jutsus, and different jutsus from other elements as well.


Neji only uses his kekkai genkai, how would Gai teach him his own bloodline, who else would of taught tenten how to summon weapons? We don't know what kurenai taught to her kids, because we barely see them even together, her kids have their own special abilities anyway. Kakashi taught the three some basics, like genjutsu, thats how they were able to tell before the chuunin exam the room number, and he also taught them basics about controlling chakra and all that(running up the tree), the other jounins have most likely did that to their kids, but kakashi only stayed with the trio until the chuunin exam, then naruto went off with Jiraiya, Sakura went with Tsunade, Sasuke went to Orochimaru.


Of course it didn't matter who got the blood, thats obvious. Getting the blood was part of the plan, im not denying it wasn't. But nothing suggests that Kakashi didn't do anything or even helped with the plan, as Shikamaru was shocked to see how Kakashi obtained it

Originally posted by Terryc250
He had 80% of his body figured out, he ran towards her, where do you think his confidence comes from? Most likely the fact that he can at any point exploit her phobia like he taunted about her being afraid of blood.


No, each individual LEANS towards an element, Kakashi said to become a Jounin you need to beable to control a MINIMUM of two chakra elements, meaning people can use more then that, he said Jounins have ATLEAST two, however naturally one person leans towards an element. Shodai uses Earth and Water to create his Mokuton, Shodai ATLEAST has water jutsus, and earth jutsus, and probably even different element jutsus as well, because remember two elements are only a MINIMUM (to become a jounin). Take a look at Yamato for example, you think he only knows Mokuton jutsus because that was the only thing he used in battle right? Wrong, in his demonstration he did the "Doton: Doryuuheki" then "Suiton: Takitsubo", and Yamato isn't even one of the more experienced Jounin, he is one of the younger ones. A great ninja like Shodaime who defeated Madara, besides his mokuton probably has many great Suiton and Doton jutsus, and different jutsus from other elements as well.


Neji only uses his kekkai genkai, how would Gai teach him his own bloodline, who else would of taught tenten how to summon weapons? We don't know what kurenai taught to her kids, because we barely see them even together, her kids have their own special abilities anyway. Kakashi taught the three some basics, like genjutsu, thats how they were able to tell before the chuunin exam the room number, and he also taught them basics about controlling chakra and all that(running up the tree), the other jounins have most likely did that to their kids, but kakashi only stayed with the trio until the chuunin exam, then naruto went off with Jiraiya, Sakura went with Tsunade, Sasuke went to Orochimaru.


Of course it didn't matter who got the blood, thats obvious. Getting the blood was part of the plan, im not denying it wasn't. But nothing suggests that Kakashi didn't do anything or even helped with the plan, as Shikamaru was shocked to see how Kakashi obtained it And he was going to exploit her phobia by slicing her up. Not himself...His whole threat was to show Tsunade her own blood not his blood.

Yet...just because they can learn more than two doesn't mean they do learn more than two. You hardly ever see anybody use more than one type regularly. Just because Shodai was strong, and probably because of his bloodline ability, doesn't mean he suddenly has to know a whole lot of ninjutsu much less from different elements than the one that make up Mokuton.

We don't know anything about TenTen. It could be her family trait. Just like Shino's is the bugs, and Kiba's is using dogs. And how is Kurenai going to teach any of her students about anything they do when she's a genjutsu specialist. And basics aren't anything special. I'm talking about anything worthwhile. Like Kakashi did with Sasuke, and Gai did with Lee. Actually teaching them moves, and everything not teaching them something every ninja should know. I'd find it really hard to believe that Gai taught TenTen anything about her fighting style. The only person to actually not have her own style was Sakura, who we know her parents aren't ninja so it makes sense.

Obviously Kakashi didn't plan on Chidori either until he saw it was an Earth element. Just because Kakashi's choice of attack changed doesn't mean the plan was altered in anyway from what Shikamaru said. Just because Naruto called Kakashi smarter than Shikamaru that means Kakashi has the right to, off-panel, have any kind of input in Shikamaru's plan why? Kakashi improvising an attack doesn't mean anything. After all it's not like he knew before he say Kakuzu use the move that it was Earth style. So he's not going to be telling Shikamaru he'll stay back and use Chidori because they use Earth style. He made that decision while hiding.

Originally posted by Kento
And he was going to exploit her phobia by slicing her up. Not himself...His whole threat was to show Tsunade her own blood not his blood.
The whole point of the threat was that he is going to exploit her phobia, because obviously cutting her tendons isn't going to work.


If the requirements to become a jounin is a Minimum of two, that doesn't mean that most Jounins will just learn two, then stop just so they can be a jounin, most likely the higher experienced jounins know more then two, but stick to using mostly their two most powerful in battle, like how Yamato only does Mokuton usually in battle when he can use suiton and doton as well, or even why Kakashi has rasengan but never uses it, ninjas mostly just use techniques their best at, it doesn't mean thats all they have, or that they don't have it.

It's like saying Minato is only capable of doing body flicker and rasengan. Just because he's shown with limited jutsus doesn't mean thats all he's capable of, his status as 4th Hokage and described as a once in a lifetime genius (or whatever) means he's probably capable of tons more jutsus

Could be, or it could not be, we'll never know until we see her family. We can only speculate because we know next to nothing about Tenten.


But where's proof that Shikamaru came up with the entire plan and even Kakashi's part? Did Shikamaru say "go hide in the trees"? I highly doubt it, there's no evidence that he did, its their plan, not shikamaru's plan.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The whole point of the threat was that he is going to exploit her phobia, because obviously cutting her tendons isn't going to work.


If the requirements to become a jounin is a Minimum of two, that doesn't mean that most Jounins will just learn two, then stop just so they can be a jounin, most likely the higher experienced jounins know more then two, but stick to using mostly their two most powerful in battle, like how Yamato only does Mokuton usually in battle when he can use suiton and doton as well, or even why Kakashi has rasengan but never uses it, ninjas mostly just use techniques their best at, it doesn't mean thats all they have, or that they don't have it.

It's like saying Minato is only capable of doing body flicker and rasengan. Just because he's shown with limited jutsus doesn't mean thats all he's capable of, his status as 4th Hokage and described as a once in a lifetime genius (or whatever) means he's probably capable of tons more jutsus

Could be, or it could not be, we'll never know until we see her family. We can only speculate because we know next to nothing about Tenten.


But where's proof that Shikamaru came up with the entire plan and even Kakashi's part? Did Shikamaru say "go hide in the trees"? I highly doubt it, there's no evidence that he did, its their plan, not shikamaru's plan. I just said he was going to exploit it...but by using her own blood not his.

And just because they can learn more than two different elements doesn't mean all of them have the need to learn stuff they won't use. That's really just my point. They can but that doesn't mean they do.



http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11884/page.15/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/8/naruto/chapter.11885/page.7/

That's the proof.

Tsunade loses because she is slower than either, less skilled in Taijutsu than Zabuza at least, and has less powerful jutsu.

Seriously, refute that.

she's a hokage dumbass

A shitty Hokage.

Hokage is a title prick, yet what she has shown SO FAR, puts her at a level below that of even guys like Asuma.

Originally posted by Kento
I just said he was going to exploit it...but by using her own blood not his.
The point is, he had to exploit her weakness. The rest is just a taunt he couldve used her blood or his blood, the taunting isn't relevent he could've said "i'll rip off your head til the blood shoots out" but it doesn't mean he will, its just a taunt.


Why wouldn't they use it? Why would great ninjas aim for the minimal requirement? A lot of shinobi knows more then 2 but only use their main element, or their kekkai genkai, or whatever they're good at, it doesn't mean they're incapable though. Like Asuma for example, he mostly just fights with his weapon, but it doesn't mean he has zero ninjutsu.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The point is, he had to exploit her weakness. The rest is just a taunt he couldve used her blood or his blood, the taunting isn't relevent he could've said "i'll rip off your head til the blood shoots out" but it doesn't mean he will, its just a taunt.


Why wouldn't they use it? Why would great ninjas aim for the minimal requirement? A lot of shinobi knows more then 2 but only use their main element, or their kekkai genkai, or whatever they're good at, it doesn't mean they're incapable though. Like Asuma for example, he mostly just fights with his weapon, but it doesn't mean he has zero ninjutsu. Taunting was what he was doing when he got punched, and when he said that such an attack won't stop him. There is a difference between a threat and a taunt. He wouldn't have had to run at her if he was just going to cut himself. He would have did just what he did when help arrived. Staid still and let her come to him. Besides who actually looked the more skilled in fighting in that battle? The one who was able to dodge, and counter or the one who just smashed everything in the way with linear attacks?

How about we just agree to disagree on this. Because I had a whole thing written out but it'll just keep going back in circles. There isn't any proof for or against Jounin knowing more than two ninjutsu. Sure they can but being able to do something doesn't always mean they do.

Originally posted by Kento
Taunting was what he was doing when he got punched, and when he said that such an attack won't stop him. There is a difference between a threat and a taunt. He wouldn't have had to run at her if he was just going to cut himself. He would have did just what he did when help arrived. Staid still and let her come to him. Besides who actually looked the more skilled in fighting in that battle? The one who was able to dodge, and counter or the one who just smashed everything in the way with linear attacks?
Threats are meaningless, like someone saying they'll erase existance, it means nothing, him saying he'll kill her is nonsense. The only thing we get out of it is that he's going to be using blood. How would he do what he did when he arrived? First of all Tsunade isn't underestimating him anymore, second of all, he got hit by Tsunade and doesn't have complete control over his body. The fight was like a minute, and most of it was talking, like i said she underestimated him, and that how he got the hits in, and she retaliated with a hit herself, in the end who had the upper hand? Tsunade did.


It's basically like saying there's no proof the 4th Hokage has any other moves besides body flicker, and rasengan. Yes there's no proof but he most likely has alot more jutsus then just those, if we take into account of his title, and that he was known as a great ninja, etc.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Threats are meaningless, like someone saying they'll erase existance, it means nothing, him saying he'll kill her is nonsense. The only thing we get out of it is that he's going to be using blood. How would he do what he did when he arrived? First of all Tsunade isn't underestimating him anymore, second of all, he got hit by Tsunade and doesn't have complete control over his body. The fight was like a minute, and most of it was talking, like i said she underestimated him, and that how he got the hits in, and she retaliated with a hit herself, in the end who had the upper hand? Tsunade did.


It's basically like saying there's no proof the 4th Hokage has any other moves besides body flicker, and rasengan. Yes there's no proof but he most likely has alot more jutsus then just those, if we take into account of his title, and that he was known as a great ninja, etc. There isn't any proof she was holding back at all when she was fighting Kabuto, and was still avoided because he amped his speed a little. He was able to hit her with them both facing each other, and both ready to fight. Her only hit was because he assumed the fight was over, and wasn't paying attention because he underestimated her healing ability. If he hadn't of been gloating with his eyes closed she'd have never hit him. And what does it matter he had figured out 80%. He was charging at her with a kunai. What in the world makes you think he was going to run up and cut himself? He turns around, charges at her, kunai out, threatning to slice her up. So how does any of that say he's going to cut himself? Everything he does, and says up until Jiraiya and them arrive points to him slicing her up.

Except we know Yondy created those three, and had to become Jounin by having elemental jutsu which none of those are. So of course he knows others. But what does that have to do with somebody only knowing two elements but probably a lot of jutsu from just two elements? Just because it's possible to learn more than two elements doesn't mean every single Jounin or even a majority of Jounin know more than two elements as they die young, and they get the most missions, and the strongest missions which doesn't give them time to learn more. Then there is the fact that over half the ninja we see aren't even Jounin.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Yeah, and maybe she can fire a supa megapowaful laza from her diamond forehead!!!

Fact is, Jiraiya and Oro upstaged her in the fight, and they were both weakened. Lulz.

The people who said zabuza will wipe out tsunade is wrong. tsunade could beat orochimaru and if orochimaru could beat zabuza tsunade could deffinatly beat him. also kakashi had beaten zabuza do the math. she was still able to beat oro after she lost most of her chakra fighting kabuto and both of them ran from her so tsunade will win

tsunade could beat zabuza if orochimaru could beat zabuza and tsunade could beat orochimaru wich she did after she lost most of her chakra fighting kabuto then she will win in a heart beat also kakashi beaten zabuza do the math

Originally posted by lilretro
The people who said zabuza will wipe out tsunade is wrong. tsunade could beat orochimaru and if orochimaru could beat zabuza tsunade could deffinatly beat him. also kakashi had beaten zabuza do the math. she was still able to beat oro after she lost most of her chakra fighting kabuto and both of them ran from her so tsunade will win Oro was weakened, and all she did was catch his tounge, when he couldn't use jutsu, and then punch him. Even before her phobia was exploited Kabuto was beating her. Zabuza could do it also.

me thinks itachi can solo the other 3...

i think tsunade could beat z.
but it wouldnt matter because itachi could easily defeat her as well as deidara.

team 2 is underestimated.

deidara just has to go airborne and spam bombs to confuse team 1, leaving tsunade to summon katsuyu.

deidara laready has a stratagy to take on itachi, he even displayed some of it on sasuke, if he's airborne and moving quickly, only amatarasu can take him down. if itachi tries that, tsunade and the slug can take advantage of his reduced eyesite.

zabuza imo can't hang with either of team 2: tsunade would take the sword from him mid swing, or just shitstomp him flat out. (she went up against hanzo and his personal mist nin, zabuza is outclassed).

deidara would rape zabuza....

Tsunade was beaten by Hanzo with Orochimaru and Jiraiya's help.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
team 2 is underestimated.

deidara just has to go airborne and spam bombs to confuse team 1, leaving tsunade to summon katsuyu.

deidara laready has a stratagy to take on itachi, he even displayed some of it on sasuke, if he's airborne and moving quickly, only amatarasu can take him down. if itachi tries that, tsunade and the slug can take advantage of his reduced eyesite.

zabuza imo can't hang with either of team 2: tsunade would take the sword from him mid swing, or just shitstomp him flat out. (she went up against hanzo and his personal mist nin, zabuza is outclassed).

deidara would rape zabuza.... And Zabuza can use mist to confuse team 2 just as well. And Zabuza is a master at moving through the mist. So Deidara wouldn't know where Tsunade is to blow anything up so he'd either have to take care not to blow up his partner or just go crazy and not care. Either way it's not going to be good.

Deidara has a strategy to take on the regular sharingan, he's toast against Mangekyou sharingan.

She went up against Hanzou with the help of Oro, and Jiraiya, and we don't even know what she did or how well she did compared to the other two. And they were all three stomped without so much as a chance of winning. And a mist jutsu would solve any problems that Tsunade may cause if you think she can. She can't fight without being able to see.

Yes, Deidara beats Zabuza but Itachi can easily just beat both Tsunade and Deidara so it doesn't matter. But Deidara wouldn't go after Zabuza anyway as he wants to defeat Itachi.

Originally posted by psycho gundam

deidara just has to go airborne and spam bombs to confuse team 1, leaving tsunade to summon katsuyu.


and katsuya wouldnt be hit by bombs being as big as she is?
theres flaw in your plan.

and he'd aim for the not so inconspicuous giant slug because...?

his bombs can fly and follow their intended target, my logic is sound.

how would she get zabuza's sword? theres nothing to grab onto but the sharp side...shes not quick enough to get the handle or opposite side

his sword has a big hole in it, and it's as broad as snowboard. she did do it to naruto's kunai with one finger (while drunk off sake)

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not saying it would be easy, but with her insane strength advantage, close taijutsu with her is asinine.

Strength advantage means nothing when Zabuza has the speed advantage, and skill advantage. Doing so to Naruto back then isn't exactly something grand.

yeah i know, but she did it with one finger against his kunai mid lunge.
and stopping his resangan with the trench soon after, again with the same finger.

and zabuza needs water close by to do suiton jutsu, he's no kisame or definitely no tobirama senju. and if he gets tired or hurt, lugging around that big ass hocho will be more difficult.

oh yeah, killer be caught and removed the hocho from it's weilder also.

Well yea, if he's not around water he's pretty much just a guy with a sword, who is still faster than Tsunade.

And Killer Bee doing something doesn't mean Tsunade can. And Suigetsu hasn't shown any skills to be on par with Zabuza. All he's shown his he can tank Killer Bee's blast because of his body.

honestly tsunade fails in the speed department...

This is spite. Itachi one-panneled Deidara, and one of Pains weakest paths nearly killed Tsunade. Itachi vaporizes them both or soloes them with finger-genjutsu.