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How strong are the Z fighters? I've never read the manga, I've seen all the anime however (DBZ at least, not DB or as much GT) and I just wanted to ask how strong are any of them. I've seen Goku shadow box with the 20tons on each when he died in between Cell and Buu, and even though I'm not as extensive in my GT viewership, I saw the fight with Omega where he punches Goku and Vegeta into the building and they have to hold it up, which may be a thousand or so tons, but that's after SSJ4. I wonder how strong can each of them lift base, and can they without ki?

Originally posted by headrek1
How strong are the Z fighters? I've never read the manga, I've seen all the anime however (DBZ at least, not DB or as much GT) and I just wanted to ask how strong are any of them. I've seen Goku shadow box with the 20tons on each when he died in between Cell and Buu, and even though I'm not as extensive in my GT viewership, I saw the fight with Omega where he punches Goku and Vegeta into the building and they have to hold it up, which may be a thousand or so tons, but that's after SSJ4. I wonder how strong can each of them lift base, and can they without ki?
You can't really separate the strength/power of the warriors in DBZ from ki- their control of ki is an integral part of their fighting, and all living beings have ki in the Z universe- it's just a question of how powerful, and how well controlled it is.

There are no official power levels after the Freiza saga. The strength of Goku and Vegeta in particular continues to grow at a rapid rate, but it's not quantified.

There is no answer. People can guess and speculate all they want but..We really don't know.

But in physical strength I still say Vegeta > Gokou. After all Vegeta has trained in much higher gravity that had to make him physically stronger to be able to move around in 400x's Earth Gravity before he was even able to turn super saiyan.

Originally posted by jimBOFH
You can't really separate the strength/power of the warriors in DBZ from ki- their control of ki is an integral part of their fighting, and all living beings have ki in the Z universe- it's just a question of how powerful, and how well controlled it is.

There are no official power levels after the Freiza saga. The strength of Goku and Vegeta in particular continues to grow at a rapid rate, but it's not quantified.

Well see I know the last official PL is after Frieza and Goku goes SSJ in the Frieza saga, but what does powerlevel equal. The greater your PL obviously you're stronger, but what does that equate to in actual physical strength, not energy. Can somebody with a 100 powerlevel lift a tank, what about somebody at 75,000,000 (Hypothetical Goku after Cell)?

Originally posted by headrek1
Well see I know the last official PL is after Frieza and Goku goes SSJ in the Frieza saga, but what does powerlevel equal. The greater your PL obviously you're stronger, but what does that equate to in actual physical strength, not energy. Can somebody with a 100 powerlevel lift a tank, what about somebody at 75,000,000 (Hypothetical Goku after Cell)?
It doesn't translate directly into strength. If anything, it's a measure of the strength of one's Ki- which is derived from, and adds to, physical strength, but is not the same thing. Also lifting a tank would be child's play for a Saiyan. In the very first ep of Dragonball Goku throws Bulma's mini-car- his power level at that point is < 100, while Vegeta's is 18, 000 when he arrives on earth.

Power levels are basically irrelevant for determining anything other than which DBZ character is stronger than which other DBZ characters - it's not consistent, which is one of the reasons Toriyama dropped the concept after the Frieza saga.

Anyway, their lifting strength is more than 100 tons at the end of the manga, and their best feats can put them at several thousand tons of striking power (although this is often augmented by their momentum in flight)

VERY strong.

Originally posted by jimBOFH
It doesn't translate directly into strength. If anything, it's a measure of the strength of one's Ki- which is derived from, and adds to, physical strength, but is not the same thing. Also lifting a tank would be child's play for a Saiyan. In the very first ep of Dragonball Goku throws Bulma's mini-car- his power level at that point is < 100, while Vegeta's is 18, 000 when he arrives on earth.

The thing is strength/speed/etc don't rise porportionally to their power level. Think about it:

It takes a pl of about 500 to blow up a planet.
That farmer had a pl of 5.

Do the math, and you'll see that the farmer would be MUCH stronger than a farmer...... capable of destroying everest.

Broly can destroy a galaxy.
If a planet buster has a pl of 500, then a star buster has a pl of about 500,000,000.

Our galaxy contains billions of stars.

Think about how high Broly's pl would need to be.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
It takes a pl of about 500 to blow up a planet. And where, pray-tell, did you get this number?

Considering Raditz, with a PL of 1,200, could not bust a planet.

The weakest person to bust a planet in canon was First Form Freeza, whose PL is about 500,000.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx


The weakest person to bust a planet in canon was First Form Freeza, whose PL is about 500,000.


Wow. That's crazy. So Vegeta and Nappa were freaking out over Goku's PL being 9000+...

Was the gap between Freeza and pretty much the rest of the galaxies fighters really that humongous?

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
And where, pray-tell, did you get this number?

Considering Raditz, with a PL of 1,200, could not bust a planet.

The weakest person to bust a planet in canon was First Form Freeza, whose PL is about 500,000.

Nah, Vegeta, with a power level of 18, 000, destroyed Arlia, remember?

Originally posted by jimBOFH
Nah, Vegeta, with a power level of 18, 000, destroyed Arlia, remember? Which was filler.

Originally posted by Kento
Which was filler.

Well yes, but it seems to be roughly in line with the fact that Roshi could destroy the moon with a power of 132 or whatever.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Wow. That's crazy. So Vegeta and Nappa were freaking out over Goku's PL being 9000+...

Was the gap between Freeza and pretty much the rest of the galaxies fighters really that humongous? Yeah, and that is at Freeza's weakest.

Freeza at full strength, his PL is actually about 120,000,000.

SSJ Goku(first transformation) was 160,000,000.

And actually, Vegeta wasn't freaking out from fear, just shock that a lower level Saiyan could reach that level. Nappa was an elite and had a PL of 4,000.

Vegeta's was 18,000.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Yeah, and that is at Freeza's weakest.

Freeza at full strength, his PL is actually about 120,000,000.

SSJ Goku(first transformation) was 160,000,000.

And actually, Vegeta wasn't freaking out from fear, just shock that a lower level Saiyan could reach that level. Nappa was an elite and had a PL of 4,000.

Vegeta's was 18,000.
Those figures with Freiza and Goku seem to have one too many zeroes...are you sure about that?

Originally posted by jimBOFH
Those figures with Freiza and Goku seem to have one too many zeroes...are you sure about that? He's right about Freeza. But I thought Gokou was 150,000,000 but he may be right about that also. Its in the Daizenshuu.

As for the Arlia thing. It contradicts the fact he has to use Galic Gun to try and destroy Earth.

Originally posted by jimBOFH
Those figures with Freiza and Goku seem to have one too many zeroes...are you sure about that? Positive, though I may have confused SSJ Goku's second digit, it may only be 150,000,000.

From what I recall, Nappa's power level was 5,000, not 4,000 (not much difference there, but felt I should point it out still).

Other than that, yeah. The rest sounds right/accurate enough.

I am pretty positive it is 4,000.

Really? I thought it was like 8,000.

No way, wasn't that.

And why does the Daizenshu official site suck so much ass?

There is an official site? And yea you're right. Everything I keep checking says 4,000 except one which says 7,000. Not sure where I got the 8,000 though. Must have been something I read back in the day.

Yeah, Daizex.com or some shit...And it is hard as hell to find shit on their.

Ah, guess I remembered wrong then.
Carry on.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Ah, guess I remembered wrong then.
Carry on. You're not the only one. lol

@Jaxx - Oh that site. Yea it is.

HA!

I AM T3H BESTEST POWALEVEL GUY EVA!

You're just cheating and using a scouter.

Originally posted by Kento
Really? I thought it was like 8,000.
Nah, cause Goku's base power is 8000 when he fights Nappa and he doesn't have to use kaioken to beat him.
I thought it was 5,000- perhaps it's one of the things they changed in the English anime for dubbing. (like the fact that they said Goku's power was OVER NINE THOUSAND...the manga says 8000.)

If it takes more than a pl of 500 to blow up a planet, then that is still lopsided. That farmer w/pl of 5 would proportionally be able to one shot a mountain.

Its really hard to determine physical strength as the fighting is so over the top and the physial damage done to surrounding areas is so great, i actually got pissed at the stat of the saiyan saga when dr breifs said goku wud struggle with tons...i was like what !!! sme when he tells vegeta he couldnt handle 18tons,, 18TONS !!! a guy who in his fight with zarbon hit him so hard the ground shook !! thats atleast a 2hundred thousand lifter, i honestly cantsay usign onyl physical strength iv seen z fighters do more impressive things than people who can lift billions of tons, and apprently they cn only lift 40tons or so.. bahh !!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If it takes more than a pl of 500 to blow up a planet, then that is still lopsided. That farmer w/pl of 5 would proportionally be able to one shot a mountain.

You're probably right in that it's lopsided, but not because of that example- afaik, the weakest person to destroy a whole planet is Vegeta (PL 18, 000) , and that's filler- if you don't count that, it's Frieza.
However, Jackie Chun destroys the moon in dragonball with a kamehameha wave, and his base power (Goku's kamehameha is usually more powerful than goku's base power) is 132.

So i guess it can't be a linear scale.

Originally posted by jimBOFH
You're probably right in that it's lopsided, but not because of that example- afaik, the weakest person to destroy a whole planet is Vegeta (PL 18, 000) , and that's filler- if you don't count that, it's Frieza.
However, Jackie Chun destroys the moon in dragonball with a kamehameha wave, and his base power (Goku's kamehameha is usually more powerful than goku's base power) is 132.

So i guess it can't be a linear scale.

Either way, a farmer having a pl of 5 would porportionally mean he could one shot a mountain or at least a skyscraper, which is false. This means that pl's aren't porportional.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Either way, a farmer having a pl of 5 would porportionally mean he could one shot a mountain or at least a skyscraper, which is false. This means that pl's aren't porportional.


or it read his ki that he just didn't know how to channel. or which is the most logical/likely reason Toryiama was just pulling stuff out of his ass as usual.

Originally posted by TheBadguy
or it read his ki that he just didn't know how to channel. or which is the most logical/likely reason Toryiama was just pulling stuff out of his ass as usual.

If you think so, but what about this:

A sun is a million times bigger than the earth.

If you want to go by 500, 18000 or 500000 as the "planet busting level" than "sun busting" would be 500 million, 1.8 billion or a VERY high number.

A galaxy contains countless billions of stars.

Think about how high Broly's power level would have to be.

It isn't logical, because he isn't THAT much more powerful than everybody else.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If it takes more than a pl of 500 to blow up a planet, then that is still lopsided. That farmer w/pl of 5 would proportionally be able to one shot a mountain. maybe he could if he trained hard enough

Originally posted by BradBalboa
Its really hard to determine physical strength as the fighting is so over the top and the physial damage done to surrounding areas is so great, i actually got pissed at the stat of the saiyan saga when dr breifs said goku wud struggle with tons...i was like what !!! sme when he tells vegeta he couldnt handle 18tons,, 18TONS !!! a guy who in his fight with zarbon hit him so hard the ground shook !! thats atleast a 2hundred thousand lifter, i honestly cantsay usign onyl physical strength iv seen z fighters do more impressive things than people who can lift billions of tons, and apprently they cn only lift 40tons or so.. bahh !! I loled.

And Power Levels were always inconsistent, hence why they stopped being used after Freeza saga.

Originally posted by yungz22
maybe he could if he trained hard enough

If you train hard enough you can blow up a mountain???

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If you train hard enough you can blow up a mountain???

lol

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If you train hard enough you can blow up a mountain??? Go ask Krillin.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If you think so, but what about this:

A sun is a million times bigger than the earth.

If you want to go by 500, 18000 or 500000 as the "planet busting level" than "sun busting" would be 500 million, 1.8 billion or a VERY high number.

A galaxy contains countless billions of stars.

Think about how high Broly's power level would have to be.

It isn't logical, because he isn't THAT much more powerful than everybody else.

I did a calculation of how much power it would take to destroy a solar system with one blast earlier- if it's 10, 000 to destroy a planet, then it would be 10 quintillion (a quintillion is 1 followed by 18 zeroes) to directly destroy the entire solar system.
However, it was pointed out to me that the power system can't possibly be totally linear, as a farmer with a shotgun has PL 5, but moon-busting Jackie Chun has PL 132. Even allowing for the Kamehameha wave (Goku's kamehameha wave is about 3x as powerful as he is normally) that's still less than 400 power, which doesn't seem enough.
It could be an exponential function or some such i guess.

Wanna know all power levels mean, and have ever meant?

Who can beat up who. That is it.

PLs have never directly correlated with physical strength, speed, or power output, sure, logically they should, but they don't, all they were ever good for is judging who can beat who up and at what difficulty.

for the record. the whole over 9000 thing was a mistranslation. the actual line was: "over 8000!"

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
for the record. the whole over 9000 thing was a mistranslation. the actual line was: "over 8000!"
I believe it was deliberate- apparently they thought that the animation, which is for Vegeta saying "over 8000" in Japanese, was more suited to nine thousand phonetically for the English dub.

Right if we are going to say how much weight they cna lift

Pre King Kai Trainging- Goku= 2,000 Tons
Tien = 800 Tons
Yamcha= 750 Tons
Piccolo jr= 1,800 Tons
Krillin= 780tons
Master Roshi(buff) = 500 Tons

THESE ARE MY PERSONAL ESTIMATES, Goku was able to send chi chi flying out of the rin by merely thrustign his fists at her, a move only soemone well over a 100tonne could do ( piccolo does state that it is a demon techniuque, probably taught to gouk by kami but it i a move that usues physical strength NOT ki)

Wait if goku can lift 2000 tons at the beginning of the sayain saga why was 10 times gravity on king kais world such a challenge? Goku's body would of only weighed around a ton. It'd be like me keeling over in 1.1 times Earths gravity.

Wouldn't that also make him stronger than buu saga Goku who struggled with 40 tons?

The thing people misunderstand is, they think more PL = more energy output, which has never really been proven, this is where alot of the DBZ hype comes from, they think "Omg look at how powerful a ssj goku is, he gets even 50x more powerlevel, that means he can take out 50x as much planets!" which is false, for example:

Moon busting= PL of 139.
Raditz's powerlevel was 1500. He should hae been able to destroy the EARTH 4 times over.
Now lets take a look at 2nd form Frieza,
His PL was 1,000,000. By logic Frieza should be destroying a planet(in second form) 1798 times over.

Now SSJ Goku was 150 mil. By logic he should be able to destroy a planet: 269,784 times over(As you can see, this is WAY above solar system busting level and this is just SSJ Goku in the Frieza saga...Kinda makes you wonder why Super Perfect Cell bragged about being able to destroy a solar system....

Super Perfect Cell's PL is estimated(And this estimation is considered canon apperently) to be about 350,000,000....
Well by this logic....
Super Perfect Cell could destroy a planet: 629,496 times over.

Which is entirely not true, Super Saiyan Vegeta's big bang attack wasn't even close to destroying the planet, and if a powerlevel of 139 is capable of destroying the moon, then having over a 1,000,000x that higher just the smallest energy blast should beable to take out more then half the planet.

Another example is Majin Vegeta when he self-destructed to destroy Buu, he exerted his power, and if we follow the PL = more poweroutput, then that should've taken out countless planets, yet it couldn't even take out half of one.

Actually, to use Vegeta's attacks as an example- he channels his ki so as not to destroy the planet with his attacks. His final flash is way more than enough to destroy the earth, but he focuses it only on cell, avoiding hitting the earth with any of the energy. I imagine that his self-destruction attack was similarly controlled so as not to hit the earth.

With the moon being 1/100th the weight of the Earth and a fraction of its size you'll need hundreds of times the energy to destroy earth compared to the moon.

Actually destroying the earth takes almost 2000 times as much energy as destroying the moon (GBE formula). As for destroying multiple things in space with one attack, the inverse-square law makes that number increase massively....

I can show you guys how the math works if you're interested

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Actually destroying the earth takes almost 2000 times as much energy as destroying the moon (GBE formula). As for destroying multiple things in space with one attack, the inverse-square law makes that number increase massively....

I can show you guys how the math works if you're interested

How does that change the fact that the pl's are lopsided proportionally?


And Tercyc250, the solar system is WAY more than 269,784 bigger than the earth. The sun alone is a million times bigger.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Actually destroying the earth takes almost 2000 times as much energy as destroying the moon (GBE formula). As for destroying multiple things in space with one attack, the inverse-square law makes that number increase massively....

I can show you guys how the math works if you're interested

Thanks I was going to work it out myself but didn't have time to go though the math so I just made a guess.

Any idea whats needed for solar destruction? I remember it been roughly a billion times the energy needed to wipe out earth.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Wait if goku can lift 2000 tons at the beginning of the sayain saga why was 10 times gravity on king kais world such a challenge? Goku's body would of only weighed around a ton. It'd be like me keeling over in 1.1 times Earths gravity.

Wouldn't that also make him stronger than buu saga Goku who struggled with 40 tons?

henc ei sya my opinion, Goku struggeled with one ton weight, when in dragonball as a kid hed coped with more than thta MUCH MORE !!. King Kais planet should have had 1000X Gravity to make it more realistic then have the train in even higher gravity etc...

He never struggled with a 1 - ton weight, he struggled with 4 10 - ton weights on each of his limbs

ehh but its my guess that grand kais planet has higher gravity, it makes esnse considering that kig kais planet is used to train fightinger, grand kais is just a step up from that, so it make sense...

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Actually destroying the earth takes almost 2000 times as much energy as destroying the moon (GBE formula). As for destroying multiple things in space with one attack, the inverse-square law makes that number increase massively....

I can show you guys how the math works if you're interested
Wouldn't it be proportional to the volume of the blast- presuming the blast is spherical, the energy would be proportional to 4/3 Pi times the radius cubed, and in addition a planet on the edge of the solar system would receive less energy from the blast due to the inverse square law than one at the centre of the blast?

Logically it should be, but power levels were never based on logic.

Originally posted by BradBalboa
henc ei sya my opinion, Goku struggeled with one ton weight, when in dragonball as a kid hed coped with more than thta MUCH MORE !!. King Kais planet should have had 1000X Gravity to make it more realistic then have the train in even higher gravity etc...

It could well of been higher gravity however why would they refer to weights based off mass they'd have on Earth? If it weighed the equivalent of 400 tons on the kai planet thanks to gravity they would say it weighed 400 tons not 40.

Originally posted by jimBOFH
Wouldn't it be proportional to the volume of the blast- presuming the blast is spherical, the energy would be proportional to 4/3 Pi times the radius cubed, and in addition a planet on the edge of the solar system would receive less energy from the blast due to the inverse square law than one at the centre of the blast?

Logic and math does not apply in DBZ.

It's based on the mass of the planet and the gravity it creates - once you get to a certain size of object, the major force holding it together is gravity - you can calculate it with this formula:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/1/8/4/184e59437933fb584cf793840bd5c9b5.png

Where U = the energy required to destroy it (in joules), G = the gravitational constant, M = the object's mass, and r = the object's radius.

(Note that this only works for objects held together primarily by their own gravity, such as moons, planets, large asteroids, stars, etc.)

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's based on the mass of the planet and the gravity it creates - once you get to a certain size of object, the major force holding it together is gravity - you can calculate it with this formula:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/1/8/4/184e59437933fb584cf793840bd5c9b5.png

Where U = the energy required to destroy it (in joules), G = the gravitational constant, M = the object's mass, and r = the object's radius.

(Note that this only works for objects held together primarily by their own gravity, such as moons, planets, large asteroids, stars, etc.)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Logic and math does not apply in DBZ.

Well if you really want to try to answer questions like this thread is asking, you have to use some kind of science or else it's pointless

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well if you really want to try to answer questions like this thread is asking, you have to use some kind of science or else it's pointless

Using science then, a farmer w/a shotgun can one shot a mountain. Don't mess with farmers!!!!!

Thats not science thats treating power levels as logical scale.

You have to use some logic, and Galvaclaw is right- it may well not be a linear scale.

I always thought it was logarithmic. Makes sense within the context of the show.

nappa's power level is around 4,000 to 5,000. it's real easy to see how he got pwned by goku once you know their power levels.

I think the power level system Toryama used in DBZ was more of a way of calculating overall fighting ability rather than anything specific like measuring ki energy levels.

Its probably more of an overview of combined variables that's then calculated and shown on the scouter. Sort of like the calcs done on Ryu at the start of the Street Fighter 2 Anime Movie. All sorts of things where calculated to form Ryu's fighting potential reading there.

Actually it is just a way of indicating who beats who.

That is it. It is nothing that complicated. It was inconsistent and unreliable.

Hence why it was discarded after Freeza Saga.

I know that, just stating what would work for its intended purpose in that universe, but for us, the audience, then yes I agree completely.

Strong enought to beat almost all shonen animes except Saint Seiya Sailor Moon Jojo Bizarre Adventure etc

saint seiya and salor moon?? i dotn watch them salor moon for a reason :P what are sum power feats from those shows ?

I believe he was talking about the Sailor Moon manga, which I haven't read but I've heard that she beat a character who had control over the entire universe or something

Saint Seiya is just cheap, everyone and their grandmother is a billion times the speed of light and can blow up planets casually and shrug off reality warping and galaxy destroying attacks

Whereas JJBA is simply broken, explaining all of their crazy powers would take way too long.

Of course there are tons of other anime/manga characters that could destroy the DBZ universe easily but most of them are kind of obscure

ohh is there powers ever expalined? i hate when some weak ass character gets that kind of power because they find sum sortta weapon or something, thats one of the reaons i love DBZ they train for their power and fight...you have intuiged me to saint seiya though..

This is a question that never going to have a clear answer

Goku lifting Bulma car was at minimum 500 kilos/ at maximum 2 tons strenght, base on this the 8 tons training in his normal form is kind of a big plop hole considering that Goku never stop increasing his strenght at least at minimum in double scale each saga, the feat i mentioned is the second or third page of the manga

The power levels machine was never specify, when Piccolo and Goku get rid of their armor clothes they jump 100 in the machine scale, but also when Goku charge the machine triple from 430 to aprox 1200, so the machine read strenght and energy

Base on this, the energy can help to increase strenght, speed, durability.

Toriyama himself explain in his manga that Saiyans can not be calculated in numbers.

I think the top tiers can reach to 1000 tons minimum, but the lack of feats dont help.

Originally posted by BradBalboa
ohh is there powers ever expalined? i hate when some weak ass character gets that kind of power because they find sum sortta weapon or something, thats one of the reaons i love DBZ they train for their power and fight...you have intuiged me to saint seiya though..

Yeah because Vegeta trained so hard to go SSJ4 and Gohan trained so hard to realize his full potential.

I think that the power level of the saiyans is based more on their overall strength as a warrior than on their physical strength. However, it would be safe to assume that their physical strength would increase along with their power level. The only reason I would believe Vegeta to be on par with Goku is because of his sheer tenacity and his warrior's mentality.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Yeah because Vegeta trained so hard to go SSJ4 and Gohan trained so hard to realize his full potential.

Vegeta needed help to go SSJ4.

hm lest see Vegeta trainging in 450X Earths Gravity and nearly killing himself, gohan traing with Piccolo ...

Originally posted by Astanax
Vegeta needed help to go SSJ4.

That was sarcasm.

Originally posted by BradBalboa
hm lest see Vegeta trainging in 450X Earths Gravity and nearly killing himself, gohan traing with Piccolo ...

Neither of those training sessions made him go SSJ4 nor did it make Gohan reach his full potential.

Sometimes they train sometimes they don't. Vegeta has taken the cheap way out three times to get stronger.

I mean to me sometimes it seems like their powers are based on their spirit and emotion...but thats not a really good statment.

saiyans have really high power levels especially once they transform here is the saiyan form multiplier

Oozaru (Great Ape) x10 of base level
SSJ (Super Saiyan): x50 of base level
ASSJ Ascended Super Saiyan) : x2 of SSJ Level
USSJ (Ultra Super Saiyan): x1.75 of ASSJ Level
MSSJ (Mastered Super Saiyan/Full Power Super Saiyan): x100 of base level
SSJ2 (Super Saiyan 2) x10 of normal SSJ and x 5 of MSSJ
SSJ3 (Super Saiayn 3) x5 of SSJ2
LSSJ (Legendary Super Saiyan) Power keeps on rising longer the battle drags on
SSJ4 (Super Saiyan 4) x?? not sure about this one
this shows that a saiyan has no limit in power becaue if one only increases there power level by 10 a day there power level would have increased by 25000 ssj3

(SSJ) 10 x 50 = 500
(SSJ2) 500 x 10 = 5000
(SSJ3) 5000 x 5 = 25000

so a saiyan has exceptional power

Saiyans are awesome!!! haha

Originally posted by BradBalboa
Saiyans are awesome!!! haha

I know arent they

haha i love the saiyan genetics, how hey totally eveolved as a warrior race, their entire makeup is built on fighting. shit how saiyans in the upcomming live action moive/sequals wont have tails =/

Originally posted by BradBalboa
haha i love the saiyan genetics, how hey totally eveolved as a warrior race, their entire makeup is built on fighting. shit how saiyans in the upcomming live action moive/sequals wont have tails =/

i know but so far theres only goku whos a saiyan so we will just have to wait for the new movies and hope they give the saiyan tails

Originally posted by SSJ2Vegeta
i know but so far theres only goku whos a saiyan so we will just have to wait for the new movies and hope they give the saiyan tails

Yeah we have a better chance hoping this movie will actually be good.

SSJ4 isn't even canon, so complaining about it is kind of pointless.

What was really annoying is that Goku and Vegeta have to work so hard to reach SSJ but then Goten and Chibi Trunks just do it easily - that really pissed me off.

Originally posted by SSJ2Vegeta
saiyans have really high power levels especially once they transform here is the saiyan form multiplier

Oozaru (Great Ape) x10 of base level

Yeah



Only based on the Daizenshuu which gave Goku's SSJ1 power level as being 50x his base PL, but that's unreliable since SSJ1 powers differ, for example base Vegeta was weaker than base Goku but SSJ1 Vegeta was above SSJ1 Goku (stated by Picollo), also SSJ1 Goku when he first transformed was still weaker than 100% Frieza but later after he learned to control it he was stronger than SSJ1 Trunks who beat Cyborg Frieza easily, so just saying that SSJ1 gives a 50x multiplier is not really accurate in all situations.



Never stated, speculation



Never stated, speculation



I've never even heard of this form, and the numbers are clearly not canon
SSJ2



That's not even consistent with your own post, because is MSSJ is 100x normal SSJ, then 5x MSSJ would be 500x normal SSJ, not 10. You are clearly making these numbers up.



Never stated, speculation



Non - canon, but I suppose it makes sense



And you are sure about the others? I'd like to see where you got these sources that make you so sure of these numbers



Again, where are these numbers coming from?



Well it would take far too long to explain all of the different powers in tons of different series like that, but I will mention that the Saint Seiya guys train at least as hard as the DBZ cast, if not harder.

However most of Saint Seiya hasn't been translated in English so if you speak Spanish or other European languages you can find it more easily.

i got these off a power level estimater on youtube not super accurate but i think its a good estimate

SSJ2 (Super Saiyan 2) x10 of normal SSJ and x 5 of MSSJ

That's not even consistent with your own post, because is MSSJ is 100x normal SSJ, then 5x MSSJ would be 500x normal SSJ, not 10. You are clearly making these numbers up.

no im saying SSJ2 is multiplied x 5 if its MSSJ
SSJ2 x 10 SSJ

I've never even heard of this form, and the numbers are clearly not canon
SSJ2

Its not SSJ2 form is the original form mastered and it is canon
The transformation first appears in the 193rd chapter of the Dragon Ball manga, "The Balance of Power" when Goku witnesses and experiences the problems with Ascended and Ultra Super Saiyan stages. Goku decides not to train again to defeat Cell, but rather to spend the time having a common life in Super Saiyan state to control the transformation without becoming weaker, as complete mastery of the original Super Saiyan form is the best way to advance his abilities, and ultimately achieve greater power. As a result, he focuses on training his body to suppress the negative effects of the Super Saiyan form, such as ki consumption and personality alterations

And you put this is never stated all the way through really can you make your arguments a bit better and like i said before i think its a good estimate.

Originally posted by SSJ2Vegeta
i got these off a power level estimater on youtube not super accurate but i think its a good estimate

In other words, someone just made them up

The last canon power levels were in the Daizenshuu giving 100% Frieza 120 million and SSJ1 Goku at the end of the fight 150 million

(actually there was one PL given after that, but it was 5 for Trunks when he was suppressing his power, so it's not really very relevant)



First of all I'm not sure I buy the existence of a "MSSJ" anyway, isn't that just the ability to maintain SSJ for a long time, as in several days on end? I haven't heard of any indication that it was actually a separate state.

Second of all, unless there is some kind of official source for these numbers, they're really nothing more than speculation.



Yes, I know that, but I'm simply questioning whether that actually counts as a separate SSJ state.



Why do I need to "make my arguments better" if your arguments are nothing but numbers created seemingly at random?

Remember the old adage: "A claim presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

Does anybody here actually have the 7th DBZ Daizenshuu that is suppose to be the only official Toriyama one and have the canon power levels all the way through??

I've seen scans of it, but never actually read it

Originally posted by Kento
Does anybody here actually have the 7th DBZ Daizenshuu that is suppose to be the only official Toriyama one and have the canon power levels all the way through??

JAPANESE
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3456/japanesedaizenshuukz1.jpg
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/japanesedaizenshuukz1.jpg/1/w640.png

FRENCH TRANSL.
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/5839/frenchdaizenshuuae1.jpg
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/frenchdaizenshuuae1.jpg/1/w629.png

only untilFreeza saga

they r incredibly strong even in base form(buu saga) they could easily fight in x500 gravity and goku trained on king kai's planet with 10 tons on with about 10x gravity so they r incredibly strong and if u add ssj1 or up its unbelievable what they can do