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Vader is on a mission to Kashyyk, when Nihilus comes to consume the planet.

Nihilus goes down to the planet to observe the destruction he has caused, and finds out there has been a survivor, Darth Vader. The two start to battle.

Who wins?

for starters. nihilus's planet consuming is pretty much impossible to survive except for someone like the exile: a wound in the force. so you may want to redo your setting.... if vader was on the planet he would've died.

secondly he has nowhere near the knowledge nihilus had. nihilus was capable of devouring entire planets. he could sense force users across the entire galaxy.nihilus's speech causes death and pain. hell being around him was enough to kill you. vader could PROBABLY stand a chance with his tk. i would place their saber skills about equal,so in a duel vader would stand a good chance. i can't imagine him faring too well in a force fight though.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
for starters. nihilus's planet consuming is pretty much impossible to survive except for someone like the exile: a wound in the force. so you may want to redo your setting.... if Vader was on the planet he would've died.
Except that Visas was on the planet (Katarr?) when it was drained but didn't die. Maybe the same thing will happen with Vader.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42

secondly he has nowhere near the knowledge nihilus had.
Vader was the apprentice of the most powerful, most knowledgeable and most accomplished Sith Lord in history. He was considered 80% of said Sith lord, which includes "book learning." There is no way that Nihilus's knowledge surpasses Vader. Kreia (who is unreliable, but she's the only source of exposition we've got) said that Nihilus's power controls him. That he is no longer human. If he has lost control of his power then how do you know that he has any thought process at all. Heck, he can't even talk any more. The only person that we know he can communicate with is Visas, whose mind follows a different track anyway. (because of her lack of sight and knowledge of "echoes" like Kreia)
Originally posted by sigma-ct42

nihilus was capable of devouring entire planets.
How will that help him in the duel? We don't know how long it takes. It was used on the Exile at the beginning of the fight, before (I think) any gameplay combat takes place. Big N could have been saving up power for that drain- we just don't know. It is an unknown.
Originally posted by sigma-ct42

he could sense force users across the entire galaxy.
nihilus's speech causes death and pain. hell being around him was enough to kill you.
Proof that his voice was enough to kill you. Proof that being around him was enough to kill you. Also, many other powerful force users could sense other force users across the Galaxy.
Originally posted by sigma-ct42

vader could PROBABLY stand a chance with his tk. i would place their saber skills about equal,so in a duel Vader would stand a good chance. i can't imagine him faring too well in a force fight though.
How on earth do you have any idea about Darth Nihilus's saber abilities? We've never seen him use them. (unless something happened in the comics. I don't think N. has been unmasked yet though.)




I say Vader takes Sabers and the all out. I'm still on the fence about the Force Contest, though.

power does not equal knowledge at all. yes he was 80% of sidious power. but it was never stated he was as wise or intelligent(if i'm mistaken sorry,i don't know much of the EU regarding the galactic empire era)
i've never seen vader demonstrate anything beyond his tk.

EDIT: my apologies i was reading so fast i missed a part of your post.
i admit my mistake in vader's knowledge.





if he doesn't,he logically fights by instinct.





when i mention the planet consuming,i don't state it as an ability he can use. i state it to point out what nihilus is capable of. and no he did not use it on the exile.



are you serious? visas says it herself. i think a person who has spent time in his presence would know?



read my previous post CAREFULLY. i NEVER outright state their saber skill is equal. i'm simply throwing my opinion in. for the record.he does....did you ever play kotor 2 you fight him on his ship....

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Except that Visas was on the planet (Katarr?) when it was drained but didn't die.Because he spared her. Unseen, Unheard attests to this.

No. He was stated to have been 80% as "strong" as the Emperor. Take context into account; GL was discussing Vader's relative power before and after his defeat on Mustafar. Unlike Palpatine, Vader was no scholar, and he certainly had neither the disposition nor the time to immerse himself in the study of the Force.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
power does not equal knowledge at all. yes he was 80% of sidious power. but it was never stated he was as wise or intelligent(if i'm mistaken sorry,i don't know much of the EU regarding the galactic empire era)
i've never seen vader demonstrate anything beyond his tk.

EDIT: my apologies i was reading so fast i missed a part of your post.
i admit my mistake in vader's knowledge.

I'm glad that you see the error of your ways.



Originally posted by sigma-ct42

if he doesn't,he logically fights by instinct.
If he fights by instinct, his knowledge can hardly be greater than that of a very accomplished Sith Lord like Darth Vader. You can't have it both ways. Either Nihlius was very intelligent and in control (he wasn't- look at his foolish attack on Telos) or he was out of control- a loose cannon, operating on instinct.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42

when i mention the planet consuming,i don't state it as an ability he can use. i state it to point out what nihilus is capable of. and no he did not use it on the exile.
If the planet drain required a ritual then it would not even count as a show of innate strength.

He did use it on the Exile. The party walks into the final level. They walk across a long pathway, with N. at the front of the ship, looking out. As they approach, a cutscene triggers. The party moves to confront the Sith- the Exile (your character) in the center, Visas on her left, and Mandalore on her right. The entire party then becomes stunned. N. uses a drain- presumably the drain because it causes a unique animation to fire. N. is brought to his knees, with the Exile apparently unharmed. N. rises, flourishes his saber and then gameplay kicks in. That is all we have for canon. We never see N.'s saber abilities, because we never see him in a canon source while fighting.


Originally posted by sigma-ct42

are you serious? visas says it herself. i think a person who has spent time in his presence would know?
She heard him, and did not die. She was around him, and did not die. The people around him who manned the ship did not die. Find proof please.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42

read my previous post CAREFULLY. i NEVER outright state their saber skill is equal. i'm simply throwing my opinion in. for the record.he does....did you ever play kotor 2 you fight him on his ship....
The only answer to this is another quote:
Originally posted by sigma-ct42
i would place their saber skills about equal

There's the hypocrisy.

As I already showed, we never see N. use his saber powers in combat. If I was good enough I could make him never get to swing his saber, or even spend the majority of the fight on the ground. It is all gameplay mechanics, so it is all non-canon.

Originally posted by Faunus
Because he spared her. Unseen, Unheard attests to this.
Really?

Crap.


Originally posted by Faunus

No. He was stated to have been 80% as "strong" as the Emperor. Take context into account; GL was discussing Vader's relative power before and after his defeat on Mustafar. Unlike Palpatine, Vader was no scholar, and he certainly had neither the disposition nor the time to immerse himself in the study of the Force.
Force learning/mastery influences power. He wouldn't have become so strong without some sort of training. Palpatine was his master. Therefore, Palpatine supplied the training. This would most likely come in the form of Force knowledge, as this was the area Vader needed the most knowledge and the area that Palpatine excelled at. Vader's Force knowledge grew after Mustafar.

Do you really want to make the argument that Darth Nihilus was more knowledgeable in the force than Vader? Darth Nihilus, who was "pure hunger" or some such? (I can't remember exactly what Kreia said about him.)

you seem to be misunderstanding. it's not a ZOMGINSTANTDEATHMOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111. it's a gradual thing. hearing his voice takes it's toll. being around him will eventually bring death.



they were mindless thoughtless slaves. they might as well be dead.



certainly. knights of the old republic 2: the sith lords. it's 20 bucks,can be found at walmart.



i'm just tossing theories around. quit assuming i'm just outright stating things.....



i never said it did require a ritual...





agreed then.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Really?

Crap.What, you thought a random Force-sensitive individual of no notable repute survived an attack that destroyed every living thing on an entire planet - including an enclave of Jedi - and leveled cities?

... Duh?

Again. Duh?

No one's arguing that Vader's knowledge didn't increase after becoming apprentice to Palpatine. The point is that he wasn't a scholar.

Who said I was trying to? You're trying to pass Vader off as someone with a repertoire of knowledge comparable to that of Palpatine based on an inccurate interpretation of a quote and the fact that he was Palpatine's apprentice.

Originally posted by Faunus
What, you thought a random Force-sensitive individual of no notable repute survived an attack that destroyed every living thing on an entire planet - including an enclave of Jedi - and leveled cities?

I guess that I really wanted the drain to be fallible. My hope was misplaced.

Originally posted by Faunus

... Duh?

Again. Duh?

No one's arguing that Vader's knowledge didn't increase after becoming apprentice to Palpatine. The point is that he wasn't a scholar.

Who said I was trying to? You're trying to pass Vader off as someone with a repertoire of knowledge comparable to that of Palpatine based on an inccurate interpretation of a quote and the fact that he was Palpatine's apprentice.

Really though, any modicum of force learning on Vader's part would make him superior to N., who I see as an unthinking, or at least instinctual creature, rather than a cerebral one. He is the antitheis of Palpatine. He is like Kar Vastor. So Vader, who has some knowledge, is > N., because he has (virtually) no knowledge at all.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

I guess that I really wanted the drain to be fallible. My hope was misplaced.We don't how it would operate in close-quarters.

Of course, for individual battles he has all of his other weapons; his vast telekinesis, the ability to put opponents into stasis, and whatever technique he used to hurl Traya into a wall while temporarily ruining her ability to touch the Force.


You're going to need to prove that Nihilus lacked knowledge, since you're making the claim. He studied under Traya at Malachor, after all.

While I fully support the idea of Nihilus being a "primal" creature rather than a "cerebral" one, he's something of an enigma. Unseen, Unheard has him cutting Visas's eyes out so that she - last representative of her "blind" but Force-sensitive race, the Miraluka - could finally "see."

Why I believe the UBER FORCE DRAIN!!!!1111!oneoneoneoneone!!! requires some charge time:
Note: this is pure speculation (with facts to back it up).

Darth Bane, even while fueled by the orbalisks (or perhaps because of them) frequently "gathered the power of the dark side." He would store up energy in an attempt to make the usage more powerful.

Farfalla uses the same method- "gathering the power of the light side in preparation to cast a protective force barrier." These are obviously paraphrased.

Luke Skywalker, even in his Force God incarnation (his first brawl with Caedus- I'm not sure which book) had to have some energy gathering before he created a shield (through the force, no less) to block Caedus's Force Lightning.
----Speculation Starts Here----
We have several (and this is by no means a comprehensive list) cases of a Force User requiring some sort of prep time in order to use a powerful technique or application of the Force. Even FG Luke had to steady himself to make a force barrier.

N. was unable to use the drain after he had tried it on the exile, but maybe he couldn't have used it in the middle of combat anyway. He did not use it on Mandalore or Visas in the midst of combat, even when Visas had the opportunity to inflict some serious damage. This may have been because he did not have a suitable store of energy to spam the power. If it required some amount of time to prepare, even if it wasn't a ritual, then it could be called a combat feat without the threat of another thread like N. vs. the Jedi Order. (He won that thread) It allows for the power of the technique without the danger of unbalancing the status quo.

Bottom line:
Strong powers take time to charge
The drain is a strong power
The drain takes some time to charge

Little time in combat is available for charging (it leaves one vulnerable)
The drain takes time to charge
N. is vulnerable while he charges the drain

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Darth Bane, even while fueled by the orbalisks (or perhaps because of them) frequently "gathered the power of the dark side." He would store up energy in an attempt to make the usage more powerful.

Farfalla uses the same method- "gathering the power of the light side in preparation to cast a protective force barrier." These are obviously paraphrased.

Luke Skywalker, even in his Force God incarnation (his first brawl with Caedus- I'm not sure which book) had to have some energy gathering before he created a shield (through the force, no less) to block Caedus's Force Lightning. And it all probably takes a neglible amount of time. Luke puts forth his barrier while flying through the air at Caedus. Obi-Wan gathers enough power to hurl Grievous several dozen meters through the air while in a one-handed saberlock with him, with inches separating the two. Obi-Wan also proceeds to match Anakin Skywalker's Force-push in the midst of combat and later rips A'Sharad Hett's arm off while the renegade Jedi is using two lightsabers. Bane gathers enough power to destroy the foundations of a temple while lying in a heap at the bottom of a staircase. Farfalla is storing power the entire fight so he can support Raskta when she needs back-up.

The list goes on. Everyone needs to gather power briefly before doing something with the Force; it's a universal trait, but it doesn't really matter. No one else gets randomly owned while doing this, so why would Nihilus?

His attempt to sever the Exile's connection backfired and crippled him - he falls to his knees - because the Exile has already been cut from the Force. She is a wound, like him; he just didn't realize it.

He also had a Force-bond with Visas, which is why he couldn't kill her. The game even offered the player the opportunity to sacrifice Visas, thus shattering the bond and further weakining Nihilus.

Also keep in mind that Nihilus put the trio into full stasis prior to his attempt to kill the Exile. He could've slaughtered them then and there.

If it requires a substantial amount of time to prepare, then it would be a ritual. Sidious's ritual in Sithisis, Bane's lightning-storm with the BoD, the thought bomb, etc.

Of course, one would need to provide evidence that suggests it is a ritual should they make that claim.

k


I'm really not interested in belaboring the point. It was an idea, but as you showed, it was wrong. I'd love for the comics to hurry up and explain the drain so that LS can tell me how it works. I'd like to have N. as a set quantity (a 'known') so that we can use him in vs. matches. I'm looking forward to a Mace vs. N. match where I don't have to bow out b/c N. is an unknown.

I thought there was a quote which came from visas which goes like this (can't remember the full quote)

something something and then comes "sacrificing itself to his hunger".

I am more interested in the "sacrificing itself" part.

I don't think he has control over this power and he uses it when he hungers, i think kreia stated somewhere that his powers control him, not the other way around.

Originally posted by Faunus


Also keep in mind that Nihilus put the trio into full stasis prior to his attempt to kill the Exile. He could've slaughtered them then and there.
Well thats very true, but the thing is kreia stated that his hunger feeds on the death he causes and that it isn't that "wavy orange" thing" that actually feeds him but the death he has caused.

Funny that he could have killed them rather easily when they were in stasis rather than try cutting off o the exile and get it backfired.

I am in no way downplaying nihilus capabilities, just a point i thought about.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I thought there was a quote which came from visas which goes like this (can't remember the full quote)

something something and then comes "sacrificing itself to his hunger".

I am more interested in the "sacrificing itself" part.

I don't think he has control over this power and he uses it when he hungers, i think kreia stated somewhere that his powers control him, not the other way around.

Well thats very true, but the thing is kreia stated that his hunger feeds on the death he causes and that it isn't that "wavy orange" thing" that actually feeds him but the death he has caused.

Funny that he could have killed them rather easily when they were in stasis rather than try cutting off o the exile and get it backfired.

I am in no way downplaying nihilus capabilities, just a point i thought about.

um wasn't all of that already pointed out by nemesis and faunus?

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
um wasn't all of that already pointed out by nemesis and faunus? Do you have a problem with me wanting to point that out even thought it had already been pointed out?

Do you have a problem with me wanting to repeat that in a different manner? I don't see the problem with that and i don't think there is.

Besides i didn't really read much of the previous posts.

Originally posted by Faunus
Because he spared her. Unseen, Unheard attests to this.

No. He was stated to have been 80% as "strong" as the Emperor. Take context into account; GL was discussing Vader's relative power before and after his defeat on Mustafar. Unlike Palpatine, Vader was no scholar, and he certainly had neither the disposition nor the time to immerse himself in the study of the Force.

He spared her after he found out she survived his drain. Before that he did not even know who she was.

Visas didn't.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Do you have a problem with me wanting to point that out even thought it had already been pointed out?

Do you have a problem with me wanting to repeat that in a different manner? I don't see the problem with that and i don't think there is.

Besides i didn't really read much of the previous posts.

wow.. ease up. it's no big deal.



she was spared :/

He sparred her after he found out she survived his drain.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He sparred her after he found out she survived his drain.

not really.this was already covered in the thread. read.

Just to throw in my two cents. Unless there is some established, indisputable source saying that Nihilus' Drain works in a specific way, it's absolutely uselss to bring it up. We've got NO source stating how long it takes to use, and we have NO source saying whether a powerful Dark Side user like Vader can block it. It's abolutely useless to bring it in to a one on one duel: no proof for either argument.

Negating that technique, Vader wins all rounds. Handily.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Just to throw in my two cents. Unless there is some established, indisputable source saying that Nihilus' Drain works in a specific way, it's absolutely uselss to bring it up. We've got NO source stating how long it takes to use, and we have NO source saying whether a powerful Dark Side user like Vader can block it. It's abolutely useless to bring it in to a one on one duel: no proof for either argument.There's no proof for it taking a long time to unleash. The other side actually has a case.

Um... how? While Nihilus is a complete unknown in terms of lightsaber combat, he is responsible for the single greatest feat of telekinesis in the mythos; Vader's strength lies in just that. Facing one of the few opponents of superior power, he would die.

Of course, Nihilus is still a relative unknown, so I can't say he wins, but there's no logic in declaring Vader the firm winner of all three categories, especially the Force and all-out.

Originally posted by Faunus
There's no proof for it taking a long time to unleash. The other side actually has a case.

Um... how? While Nihilus is a complete unknown in terms of lightsaber combat, he is responsible for the single greatest feat of telekinesis in the mythos; Vader's strength lies in just that. Facing one of the few opponents of superior power, he would die.

Of course, Nihilus is still a relative unknown, so I can't say he wins, but there's no logic in declaring Vader the firm winner of all three categories, especially the Force and all-out. Nihilus' known feats don't have many specifics to them. I won't renew the debacle of Ravager, but that one instance (as powerful as it may be) does not lend weight to Nihilus' overall case in a one-on-one duel with Vader. I can't recall Nihilus employing TK to such magnitude against the Exile and co. And as it's been somewhat agreed recently that the lightsaber feats of KotOR era characters (Force feats too, to be fair) are far too ambiguous, it'd be impossible to give Nihilus the win. Same with the Drain: all we know is that it happened. To be fair, it's true that such ambiguity could make him and all KotOR's on par with the PT.

Wait...

Originally posted by Lucien A
Nihilus' known feats don't have many specifics to them. I won't renew the debacle of Ravager, but that one instance (as powerful as it may be) does not lend weight to Nihilus' overall case in a one-on-one duel with Vader. I can't recall Nihilus employing TK to such magnitude against the Exile and co. And as it's been somewhat agreed recently that the lightsaber feats of KotOR era characters (Force feats too, to be fair) are far too ambiguous, it'd be impossible to give Nihilus the win. Same with the Drain: all we know is that it happened. To be fair, it's true that such ambiguity could make him and all KotOR's on par with the PT.

Wait... I agree entirely, although Nihilus, Traya, and Malak have some rather concrete feats. The first casually froze the Exile and co. and could've killed them then and there if he hadn't tried to "drain" a wound in the Force. Traya killed three Jedi Masters and a squad of Sith assassins with a wave of her hand. Malak killed two Jedi Knights who'd managed to fight through the Star Forge's defenses simultaneously, choking/electrocuting one and killing the other with a lightsaber throw, IIRC.

Considering that's pretty much everything that hasn't already been brought up, I renew my request to have people stop using KotOR characters in threads. The rules state that we shouldn't use unknowns, anyway.

Shut your mouth, whore.

Originally posted by Gideon
Shut your mouth, whore. Your mother does it for you, you ungrateful turd.

And REPORTED.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
not really.this was already covered in the thread. read.

No it hasn't been covered. He did not even know she existed until after he used the drain. He found out of her existence when he went to observe his work. Then after he found her, he spared her.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
wow.. ease up. it's no big deal. Sorry about that i thought you were being hostile.



As for the fight and my fanboyism put aside, nihilus wins even without the drain thanks to his "insane TK" but in no way would it be "ownage". If he can squash vader easily he surely can do the same to some one 20% more powerful than vader but with a little more difficulty.


Originally posted by Faunus
. Malak killed two Jedi Knights who'd managed to fight through the Star Forge's defenses simultaneously, While thie may be true there are some factors involved i believe.

Well one of them is that there were "squadrons" of jedi that were sent to infiltrate the SF and that along the way most of them were killed and those 2 survived, what questions me is that the defences may not have hit every one allowing some of them to live and keep running to where malak was along with the probability of the two jedi's condition being severely weakened by the time hey bumped into a SF empowered malak.

Sorry i can't type properly, a little sleeply.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Sorry about that i thought you were being hostile.



As for the fight and my fanboyism put aside, nihilus wins even without the drain thanks to his "insane TK" but in no way would it be "ownage". If he can squash vader easily he surely can do the same to some one 20% more powerful than vader but with a little more difficulty.


While thie may be true there are some factors involved i believe.

Well one of them is that there were "squadrons" of jedi that were sent to infiltrate the SF and that along the way most of them were killed and those 2 survived, what questions me is that the defences may not have hit every one allowing some of them to live and keep running to where malak was along with the probability of the two jedi's condition being severely weakened by the time hey bumped into a SF empowered malak.

Sorry i can't type properly, a little sleeply. With all the testosterone and adrenaline going through your system, everything's hostile. I'll show ya:

PT>KotOR. Vader's TK>Nihilus' TK. Multiple Sources of Awesomeness>One Source Which Mentions Unseen Awesomeness. Take THAT. Boo Yah! Gimme props.

How easy was it, and how long did it take for Nihilus to lift the Ravager? Vader did bring down an entire hut, which was said to have been just as strong as durasteel. Vader also force gripped Xizor, who was lightyears away, and that to me is more impressive than Nihilus lifting the Ravager.

Besides how big was the Ravager anyway? Wasn't it smaller than a regular size star destroyer?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How easy was it, and how long did it take for Nihilus to lift the Ravager?We don't know. And it's sort of irrelevant. Whether he yanked it up instantly or slowly pulled it out over a long period of time, it's an unprecedented feat.

That's... pretty dumb.

Considering a "regular size" Star Destroyer is over a mile long, that's not saying much. The Ravager was twelve hundred meters long; again, almost a mile. The only telekinetic feat that remotely compares is Starkiller's handling of the falling Star Destroyer, and even that doesn't really come close in terms of sheer scale.

Really in the end all that matters is how long it took him to lift it out. If he did it in a matter of minutes then he's contender for top TK dog.

Originally posted by Lucien A
With all the testosterone and adrenaline going through your system, everything's hostile. I'll show ya: Lol maybe.
Originally posted by Lucien A

PT>KotOR. Vader's TK>Nihilus' TK. Multiple Sources of Awesomeness>One Source Which Mentions Unseen Awesomeness. Take THAT. Boo Yah! Gimme props. Well props to that

no problem i know the feeling.



i believe nihilus not only lifted the ravager. he repaired it.not only that he used the force to keep it together all of those years. how the hell does vader bringing down a hut even remotely compare to any of those feats?

That's... pretty true.



Actually it does. You have to remember this was a free-falling star destroyer, coming down at great speed.




That was speculation, seeing how it stayed together even after his death.



If you read the sentence correctly, you would see i meant Vader force gripping Xizor lightyears away was more impressive.

We see Yoda destroying ships, we see Kyp lifting ship, and Starkiller redirecting one. How many people do we see force gripping others lightyears away?

Who would you fear more, someone who can crush you lightyears away, or someone who has shown he can lift a ship telekenetically?

are you serious? someone who can lift a ship hundreds of thousands of tons is more terrifying to me.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
are you serious? someone who can lift a ship hundreds of thousands of tons is more terrifying to me.

Kinda strange, but ok.

Think about it, Vader can actually crush an opponent who is thousands and thousands of lightyears away. Imagine what he can telekenetically do to something up close, if he put a lot of effort.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kinda strange, but ok.

Think about it, Vader can actually crush an opponent who is thousands and thousands of lightyears away. Imagine what he can telekenetically do to something up close, if he put a lot of effort. Great. He has excellent spatial-TK relations. He can do that up close too. What I find highly impressive his lifting up a massive million ton ship. Both are cool things to do. But space and time are physically weightless, a Star Destroyer is slightly heavier.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Great. He has excellent spatial-TK relations. He can do that up close too. What I find highly impressive his lifting up a massive million ton ship. Both are cool things to do. But space and time are physically weightless, a Star Destroyer is slightly heavier.

To reach out, in less than a second, and grip someone with the force, who is not even near you, shows great command of the force.

No one said he lifted space or time, so what are you talking about?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
To reach out, in less than a second, and grip someone with the force, who is not even near you, shows great command of the force.

No one said he lifted space or time, so what are you talking about? I just hit you with a keyboard, now I have no keyboard.

Yes he choked him across lightyears. But wasn't that when he was seeing Xizor through a hologram? Traversing your will through space and time is impressive, but until Vader picks up a freaking Star Destroyer... 'kay, a Star Destroyer... not a wind pipe.

I don't think you truly understand how impressive a feat like that is. Of course it would be easier for Nihilus to lift something heavier that is in front of him, than it would be for Vader to grip something lightyears away.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I don't think you truly understand how impressive a feat like that is. Of course it would be easier for Nihilus to lift something heavier that is in front of him, than it would be for Vader to grip something lightyears away.

actually sidious. you seem to be misunderstanding mister joker here.
yes, vader choked someone lightyears away. but he did through HOLOGRAMS and TRANSMISSIONS. vader never just willingly choked any person without seeing them. in case you can't read lucien said:



so when did he never understand the power of such a feat?....

what the point is here: is choking a freaking human who only weighs pounds is no where near the scale of lifting a ship which is hundreds of thousand or even millions of tons.....mind you while this ship was likely captured in malachor 5's messed up gravitational pull. how can you think a choke is even near as impressive?

No i understand what he is saying. A hologram is just a visual of a person, not the real thing. He is not crushing the visual, he his crushing the actual person who is lightyears away. The visual only gives Vader an idea of where the person is. It still does not change the fact that his power reached across great distances.





Except i am not comparing a mere force choke, but the distance in which Vader was able to do so.



Again, no i am not comparing the force choke alone, but the distance in which it happened, and the time it took. Vader's will actually traveled at greater speed than light.

Now if i compare Vader's force choke of admiral Motti, then i would be ridiculous.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
actually sidious. you seem to be misunderstanding mister joker here.
yes, vader choked someone lightyears away. but he did through HOLOGRAMS and TRANSMISSIONS. vader never just willingly choked any person without seeing them. in case you can't read lucien said:



so when did he never understand the power of such a feat?....

what the point is here: is choking a freaking human who only weighs pounds is no where near the scale of lifting a ship which is hundreds of thousand or even millions of tons.....mind you while this ship was likely captured in malachor 5's messed up gravitational pull. how can you think a choke is even near as impressive? Thank you, I like you.

And Sids, really... just think of the math: Vader choking a lifeform's throat weighing at several pounds of muscles and sinue. He used a live visual of the being to focus on him. That's spatial-awareness. Impressive, certainly. But what would be "Jesus Christ, REALLY?" impressive, is if he just imagined Xizor and choked him. No visuals at all. Then again, other beings have used the Force to speak to beings across the agalxy without seeing them, ala Palpatine-Mara Jade. VAder is simply performing his usual move over a greater distance, but is still reliant on visuals.

And then you have Nihilus: Lifts millions of tons of metal out of the depths of a ruined planet. That's strength. In a Force fight----Force choking over a long distance through use of a hologram, or dropping a starship on your head.......... I wonder what's more effective.

who said it did change anything? yes vader has great spatial control over his tk. it doesn't change the fact he did it only when he "knew" where they were due the holograms/transmissions...





for the last time we know. no one has doubted that it was indeed a great feat. but it still can't compare to nihilus.



my pleasure.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Thank you, I like you.

And Sids, really... just think of the math: Vader choking a lifeform's throat weighing at several pounds of muscles and sinue. He used a live visual of the being to focus on him.

It still does not change the fact that his power reached across great distances. He did not choke the visual, he still choked the person lightyears away. The visual allowed Vader to know the location of Xizor, so that Vader can reach out and feel him, and use the force around him.



Except there is an entire galaxy filled with life forms. It would take hours and hours of meditation for Vader to find Xizor. The visual allowed Vader to know of his location. It had nothing to do with focusing his power. It ain't a voodoo doll.



Using telepathy across great distances is not like using TK against someone across great distances.

Besides Palpatine was a bad example. He was one of the most powerful force users in history, and Mara also had a force link to him.



Oh yeah, Vader is going to stand there, and watch Nihilus lift a mile-long ship in the air, and then drop it on him. Are they fighting a mile apart from each other? If so, it would be easy for Vader to feel Nihilus through the force, and then force choke him. Now that would be a better arguement.

Vader only needs to know the exact location of the person to use TK against them. I know this because Jorus C'baoth used force grip against someone, who was in a different ship, without a live visual.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh yeah, Vader is going to stand there, and watch Nihilus lift a mile-long ship in the air, and then drop it on him. Are they fighting a mile apart from each other?Since Nihilus's telekinesis allowed him to pick up a starship... he can't do anything else with it.

Can't beat that logic.

Nope haha because Vader needs to be lightyears away to choke someone because that's how he did it and theres no other way to do it.

You're arguing in circles.

Originally posted by Faunus
Since Nihilus's telekinesis allowed him to pick up a starship... he can't do anything else with it.

Can't beat that logic.

You don't make sense. It would take time for Nihilus to lift a mile-long ship and throw it. Do you think Vader would be standing there in such awe that he would be motion-less?



Except there is. We see him choking people in the same room, in other rooms, and also lightyears away. We also see Jorus grip someone on another ship, and he is not as strong as Vader

Don't compare that arguement to mine, because lifting a ship, and throwing it at great speed, is a lot harder than just lifting it alone. But, force gripping someone who is lightyears away, would be harder than to do so to someone within a mile radius. So it makes sense that if Vader is able to reach out lightyears away with the force, he can reach out a mile away.



So is everyone else.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You don't make sense. It would take time for Nihilus to lift a mile-long ship and throw it. Do you think Vader would be standing there in such awe that he would be motion-less?

This has to be a bad joke. I will (try) to explain it to you. N. has enough strength with TK to move a ship. He can apply X amount of force, where X=ship moving. He can apply X in any way he wants. His power is not confined to ship moving- he could crush Vader's armor, throw things at him, or throw Vader. N.'s TK is strong enough to move a ship. This does not mean that N's TK can only move a ship.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Except there is. We see him choking people in the same room, in other rooms, and also lightyears away. We also see Jorus grip someone on another ship, and he is not as strong as Vader
You have not shown that the difficulty in Force usage increases with distance. An all pervasive mystical field laughs in the face of space/time.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Don't compare that arguement to mine, because lifting a ship, and throwing it at great speed, is a lot harder than just lifting it alone. But, force gripping someone who is lightyears away, would be harder than to do so to someone within a mile radius. So it makes sense that if Vader is able to reach out lightyears away with the force, he can reach out a mile away.
Why would it be more difficult? All you have said here is that Force gripping someone from far away is tough. Proof?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


This has to be a bad joke. I will (try) to explain it to you. N. has enough strength with TK to move a ship. He can apply X amount of force, where X=ship moving. He can apply X in any way he wants. His power is not confined to ship moving- he could crush Vader's armor, throw things at him, or throw Vader. N.'s TK is strong enough to move a ship. This does not mean that N's TK can only move a ship.

Lets compare...

Vader:

a) tore down entire huts quite casually.

b) tore down a bridge, and use its pieces as missiles.

c) caught a massive pillar in mid-air, and redirected it.

d) destroyed Palpatine's lab, even though he was not as masterful with the force then.

e) force gripped Xizor, who was lightyears away. That alone shows great skill and proficiency, than anything else Vader has demonstrated as far as TK. Maybe not a whole lot of raw power, but extraordinary skill.

Nihilus:

a) lifted a ship.

b) choked Visas.

All of the things Vader did with ease, more than make up for a one time thing Nihilus did with a ship.






I thought it was common sense, seeing how Sidious took time to write about how great of a skill it was.

Also if it was easy, why was Jorus applauded for doing so.



Says who? Yoda, who also says size meant nothing?



Read above.

Do you actually think reaching out across the vast distance of space instantly is an easy technique, and that any force user can do it? If so the burden of proof would be on you.

Nihilus has shown us a greater example of raw power with TK than Vader, but Vader has shown more skill, and his skill greatly makes up for the difference. Vader has not only showed great skill, but also a lot of raw power. Put the two together, and he surpasses Nihilus with TK.

Kyp even said skill was better than raw power.

when did vader ever lift a ship? are you trying to insinuate that using tk to destroy a bridge>>lifting a 1200 mile long ship?



how on earth can you be so sure it took nihilus long to do so? for all we know he could have accomplished it in an instant.



that is opinion.not fact.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lets compare...Let's think, first.

Tore down one hut, no indication to my knowledge of it being done "casually."

A bridge made of wood.

Right before getting owned by a man who barely managed to redirect a falling Star Destroyer; a far cry from pulling a similarly-sized object against gravity.

He destroyed medical droids and dented the walls of a lab with an uncontrolled scream.

Arca Jeth and Mace Windu destroyed battle droids in the midst of combat, the latter doing so while weaving between blaster bolts and sliding on his back.

A dying Mara Jade could stroke her husband's hair from across the galaxy. A dead Freedon Nadd could attack a Jedi Master from across the galaxy.

Neither had a visual aid.

The ship weighing tens or hundreds of thousands of tons, and being pulled out of a gravity well (against the pull of gravity, or for all intents and purposes, "up" and into space. Consider that the man who thoroughly bested Vader in a contest of the Force barely managed to redirect a slightly larger ship when it was falling to the ground, and then failed to stop it even with the assistance of what one can only presume would be absurd amounts of drag and friction.

No they don't; they don't even come close, because none of those feats compare. By your logic, the guy who benches 200, 300, 400, and 500 pounds on separate occasions is more impressive than the guy who benches 10,000. And I suppose Obi-Wan is a better swordsman than Yoda, because he bested Asajj Ventress, General Grievous, Darth Vader, and A'Sharad Hett and all Yoda did was beat Dooku.

Quantity < Quality.

No one said it was easy, genius. You're just blowing it out of proportion.

A dying Mara Jade could stroke Luke's hair from across the galaxy with the Force. A dead Freedon Nadd could attack someone (Vodo) from across the galaxy with the Force. Neither used or required a visual aid.

WTF?

Dying and dead people can do it without a visual aid.

Being more skilled in the Force doesn't automatically make someone better than an individual of superior power. That skill needs to actually make up the difference in raw power. Vader, mastery acknowledged, has never displayed ability on par with that of Nihilus. The singular feat of tearing a starship made of thousands of tons of metal out of a gravity well (that would be moving against any resistance) while keeping it intact completely eclipses Vader's greatest showings.

Context, and Kyp wasn't butchering logic.

If you want to argue that Vader is more versatile, go right ahead. There would be no proof outside of cut-content to suggest that Nihilus is the most varied Force-user out there. But in a contest of overall power based on demonstrated feats, Vader loses out miserably.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
when did vader ever lift a ship? are you trying to insinuate that using tk to destroy a bridge>>lifting a 1200 mile long ship?Twelve hundred meters, bro.

Whoever makes the claim has to prove it. If you say he did it instantly - I recognize that thus far you haven't - you would need to prove it.

Superior mastery of the Force can go a long way to make up for a comparative lack of raw power. See Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
when did vader ever lift a ship?

Ok? And when did Nihilus ever crush massive huts that were as strong as durasteel.



And are you insinuating that because Nihilus lifted a ship one time, automatically makes him superior to Vader in TK.

a lot of feats with raw power + A great showing of skill > A one time showing of great raw power.





Doubt it happened in an instance. Even if it did, it doesn't prove that he can just pick up ships and force throw them at great speed. Besides he would have to be pretty far from Vader to crush Vader with a ship, without crushing himself. If he is a mile away from Vader, by the time Nihilus lifted the ship in the air, Vader can already reach out with the force and crush him





I would take his word for it before i took yours, seeing that he is a force user, and you are not.

Kyp was not stating an opinion, he was stating a fact about himself.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ok? And when did Nihilus ever crush massive huts that were as strong as durasteel.I can crush a cardboard box. I guess that means the guy who can yank a few tons of cardboard straight up into the air but has never actually crushed a cardboard box can't crush said box. It's a different application of the same type of force, except that one individual is capable of exerting far more of that force than the other.

Yep. The best feats win out; that's how things have always been.

No. Not when "a lot of feats of raw power" are performed on a scale that isn't remotely comparable to the singular showing.

You're quickly convincing me that you're completely hopeless.

Nihilus does not need to throw a starship at Vader to hurt him. His telekinetic prowess is such that he is capable of such a feat; it does not mean that that's all he can do with it. In fact, we already know it's not all he can do because we see him choking Visas and throwing Kreia into a pillar.

And in order to hurt someone with the Force you would have to bypass whatever defenses they have erected. That can't be done against someone who's better than you.

Oh ok so you want to use that type of arguement. By your logic the guy who lifts 300 pounds would be more impressive than the guy who can crush a 100 pound dumbbell to pieces.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh ok so you want to use that type of arguement. By your logic the guy who lifts 300 pounds would be more impressive than the guy who can crush a 100 pound dumbbell to pieces. Because lifting 300 pounds takes more force than crushing a 100 pound dumbbell?

Again; think.

Edit: Not that the weight of the dumbbell would actually directly affect how hard it would be to crush. Your analogy is atrocious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh ok so you want to use that type of arguement. By your logic the guy who lifts 300 pounds would be more impressive than the guy who can crush a 100 pound dumbbell to pieces. Buddy, I liked you at first, but your persisting against all logic. Keep at it much longer and you'll be awarded the Nebaris Medal of "Honour."

P.S. The quotations are on the medal.

Originally posted by Faunus
I can crush a cardboard box. I guess that means the guy who can yank a few tons of cardboard straight up into the air but has never actually crushed a cardboard box can't crush said box. It's a different application of the same type of force, except that one individual is capable of exerting far more of that force than the other.

That was a very bad example. I know a lot of five-year-olds, who are not even well developed as far as strength, that can crush cardboard boxes. Can you name a lot of force users who can crush huts that are as STRONG AS DURASTEEL?



Ok great so my favorite character(Darth Sidious) is no doubt the most powerful force user in history. Not even LOTF Luke is as powerful as him, since Luke has never shown the power to be able to rip holes in space/time, and crush entire fleets of ships.



Yes it does, when Vader does it with seeming ease. Nothing shows that Vader had an extremely hard time doing those feats.

Kyp once lifted the sun crusher, but said he would not be able to do so again if he wanted to, even though he was more powerful and more skilled.

Nihilus was in great desperation, and had no other choice but to lift Ravager in order to escape. Vader was never in that type of situation.

It is kinda like the woman who once, in desperation to save her child, lifted a car. That does not make her stronger than a guy who goes to the Gym everyday, and lifts 185 with ease.





Ok, so since Palpatine is able to create huge force storms and crush entire fleets, means he can easily create human sized ones and suck up any opponent.



You still have not proved that Nihilus, who one time lifted a ship, in great desperation, makes him superior to Vader, who has shown that he is not lacking in raw power.

Originally posted by Faunus
Because lifting 300 pounds takes more force than crushing a 100 pound dumbbell?

Again; think.

Edit: Not that the weight of the dumbbell would actually directly affect how hard it would be to crush. Your analogy is atrocious.

What? Are you serious? My dad can bench 350, but there is no way in hell he can crush a 100 pound dumbell. That is impossible to do.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I know this because Jorus C'baoth used force grip against someone, who was in a different ship, without a live visual.
Fun Fact: That someone was none other then future Grand Admiral known as Thrawn.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That was a very bad example. I know a lot of five-year-olds, who are not even well developed as far as strength, that can crush cardboard boxes. Can you name a lot of force users who can crush huts that are as STRONG AS DURASTEEL?Can someone else explain this to him please?

Sidious used a Force-storm. Luke doesn't know how to.

You said he did it "rather casually." Prove it. Narration, pictures, whatever.

1) Kyp was partly possessed by the spectre of Exar Kun at the time. He was capable of things he wouldn't normally have been capable of.

2) Dark Apprentice has him remotely powering up the ship and flying it out, not dragging it out.

... huh?

Prove it.

Sure he was. When Starkiller was kicking his ass.

No.

He can, and he has. One of his storms pulled Luke off the surface of a planet and transported him into a chamber inside a starship.

Once more, Nihilus has already demonstrated usage of telekinesis on a personal scale against Traya and Visas. And of course, your sad attempt at hacking apart the nature of telekinesis fails miserably.

Stop being dense.

Prove it.

And who has done nothing that rivals the act of dragging an entire starship through the atmosphere of a planet up against the pull of gravity. You have no case.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? Are you serious? My dad can bench 350, but there is no way in hell he can crush a 100 pound dumbell. That is impossible to do. I was mocking your logic, moron. It was a rhetorical question, not an answer. Pulling a several thousand-ton starship up against the force of gravity takes more energy than breaking a hut.

Your argument boils down to the question of whether it took more force (in newtons) to lift the Ravager than it took to crush a durasteel hut. Lets think about it. The ravager is more than a kilometer long. It is being held in place by the innate gravitational pull of Malachor V and by the Mass Shadows. Because I can't quantify the Shadows, I will ignore them. Note that this only skews the results to look less impressive- the actual feat would be even more difficult.

Malachor would have to have a (somewhat) similar gravitational pull to Earth for reasons that I do not have room to explain fully here. (Also, in KotOR 2 the gravity behaves as it does on earth.) The pull of earth gravity requires X number of joules to attain escape velocity. Even if we cut this figure in half (b/c of the increased distance to the center of gravity of the planet) we have N. able to harness and apply effectively roughly half of the force necessary to lift the shuttle from the ground. The shuttle is big. Gravity is strong. The force is tremendous. .5 X is a very, very, very big number. To be able to throw around that much force in combat is truly terrifying.


Vader's showing that you are matching the Ravager feat with is that he "crushed a durasteel hut." This does not come remotely close to matching N.'s potential force. Vader was able to muster something like hurricane force winds.

N. removed a massive (enormously so) object from the orbit of a planet. Vader crushed a tin can. There is no comparison.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? Are you serious? My dad can bench 350, but there is no way in hell he can crush a 100 pound dumbell. That is impossible to do.

You just made his point for him. At least make it a challenge.

Edit: the ship was on the planet's surface, so it would match the shuttle energy (almost) exactly. X > .5X This is even more impressive.

Originally posted by Faunus
I was mocking your logic, moron. It was a rhetorical question, not an answer. Pulling a several thousand-ton starship up against the force of gravity takes more energy than breaking a hut.

Except you are mocking your own logic. When you bench press something, you are lifting it up against the force of gravity. But when you press down with all your physical strength, and try to crush a 100 pound dumbbell, you are actually using the force of gravity against the weight.

BTW i am not honestly admitting that Vader tearing down a huge hut, quite compares to Nihilus lifting the ravager. I was using your poor example of weight-lifting against you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except you are mocking your own logic. When you bench press something, you are lifting it up against the force of gravity. But when you press down with all your physical strength, and try to crush a 100 pound dumbbell, you are actually using the force of gravity against the weight.

BTW i am not honestly admitting that Vader tearing down a huge hut, quite compares to Nihilus lifting the ravager. I was using your poor example of weight-lifting against you. When you crush anything, you're using force other than gravity. In this case, your own muscle power. Gravity's already pressing down upon the weight, just like how it's pressing down upon everything. Dingus.

Originally posted by Faunus
Twelve hundred meters, bro.



right, sorry my mistake..



i wasn't trying to establish it as fact. basically just throwing it in as a possibility.



true.



you are comparing a hut. that is as stong as durasteel. probably weighing several tons. compared a battleship logically made from far stronger material(being built for war) that weighs possibly hundreds of thousands of tons? why the heck do you keep arguing against logic?

how can you not see the different weight factors here? that's like me saying a guy who lifted a house is superior to a guy who lifted a aircraft carrier. this has been restated several times,but the millionth's the charm i suspose. the ship nihilus lifted was held in gravitational pull from a planet,coupled with hundred's of thousands of tons weighing further. if you don't understand how dynamic that is..then i just don't know what to say...

Originally posted by Faunus
Can someone else explain this to him please?

Yes someone, please, because you are using very bad examples. It seems as if you were trying to say Vader crushing a huge hut, that is as strong as durasteel, is a simple force feat, by comparing it to you being able to crush a cardboard box, which is very simple to do for a regular human.



Why doesn't he. He did study the book of anger, which tells how a force storm is made.

Still that one feat beats anything Luke as ever shown, so that makes Palpatine better.

Again, i am just using your own logic.



Hmm... you got me there. But nothing indicates that Vader had a hard time doing it either.



Ok maybe so. I was just going by what he said. He told Jacen(i believe it was Jacen) that he ripped it out of its gravity well.



It was either lift the ship, or stay there and rot.

And how is that the same situation.



I didn't think so neither.

I meant in close combat.

So has Vader against more powerful being, such as Starkiller.

Yoda has lifted heavier things than Sidious. Does that make Yoda better? No. It is obvious in their duel. Sidious has shown to be very proficient with TK. Yoda could have lifted a hundred pods, seeing how he lifted entire landing crafts, which are about a hundred times the size of a pod. Sidious seemed to be a little more proficient with TK.



Stop using bad arguements and examples.




Good gracious child.

he isn't. stop being illogical

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes someone, please, because you are using very bad examples. It seems as if you were trying to say Vader crushing a huge hut, that is as strong as durasteel, is a simple force feat, by comparing it to you being able to crush a cardboard box, which is very simple to do for a regular human.



Why doesn't he. He did study the book of anger, which tells how a force storm is made.

Still that one feat beats anything Luke as ever shown, so that makes Palpatine better.

Again, i am just using your own logic.



Hmm... you got me there. But nothing indicates that Vader had a hard time doing it either.



Ok maybe so. I was just going by what he said. He told Jacen(i believe it was Jacen) that he ripped it out of its gravity well.



It was either lift the ship, or stay there and rot.

And how is that the same situation.



I didn't think so neither.

I meant in close combat.

So has Vader against more powerful being, such as Starkiller.

Yoda has lifted heavier things than Sidious. Does that make Yoda better? No. It is obvious in their duel. Sidious has shown to be very proficient with TK. Yoda could have lifted a hundred pods, seeing how he lifted entire landing crafts, which are about a hundred times the size of a pod. Sidious seemed to be a little more proficient with TK.



Stop using bad arguements and examples.




Good gracious child. You're a lost cause. Rethink college.

Sidious 66, as much as i hate this overpowered character, lets just face it. He can crush mountains with ease with TK, he can probably lift vaders SSD with ease, he can choke a sith lord 20% more powerful than vader with "a little more difficulty" considering that people are arguing he kick vader's ass with ease oh yes and he can probably force grip some ones testicles light years away.

He is without doubt the most overrated and overpowered character in the mytho's with the exception of palpatine.

But what i will never understand is that if he was so almighty and godlike with his TK being able to lift a ship, why couldn't he simply disarm or "pawn" the exile's party with his l33t TK even though he got weakened with his god like TK that even sidious didn't match.

OH. MY. YAHWE. I can't believe that you are this dumb. If you want to back out of the argument now and preserve your dignity I won't even count it against you. You are just so far off base right now that you have no idea what you look like. If you are arguing simply for the sake of "winning a thread" then give it up. This isn't the one.

You are also wrong in this post:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes someone, please, because you are using very bad examples. It seems as if you were trying to say Vader crushing a huge hut, that is as strong as durasteel, is a simple force feat, by comparing it to you being able to crush a cardboard box, which is very simple to do for a regular human.

When compared with lifting the Ravager it is simple. To raise a kilometer long ship while keeping its structural integrity sound, off of a planet requires both power (to achieve escape velocity) and skill (to keep the ship from tearing itself apart) FAR beyond what Vader has shown. His most impressive feat is that he crushed a house, the equivalent of a tin can. To implode the house he had to contend with the innate crystalline intermolecular structure of durasteel. N. had to defy gravity.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


Why doesn't he. He did study the book of anger, which tells how a force storm is made.
For one thing, it isn't in his character. No matter how useful the storms would have been (actually, their utility is rather dubious) it is a dark side technique. One had to focus on anger and hate- definitely outside of Luke's toolbox. You might as well ask why Yoda didn't spam force lightning in every battle.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Still that one feat beats anything Luke as ever shown, so that makes Palpatine better.
This is a false analogy. (Ironically, you are using a false analogy to attack a valid one. I laughed.) Vader and N. are using the same technique, namely telekinesis. N. has shown better mastery of the skill and more power behind it. Sidious and Luke are like apples and oranges. They are opperating under very different methodologies. Vader and N. can be compared in regards to their showings with the same technique.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Again, i am just using your own logic.
You are failing at it.


It was either lift the ship, or stay there and rot.
So it was a do or die situation. Vader was in another such "do or die" situation during his duel with Starkiller. He even had the advantage of adrenaline to fuel his Force use and fighting. N. did not have that benefit, and still outperformed him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And how is that the same situation.
In both cases the life and future of the Sith Lord was at stake.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I didn't think so neither.
The word you are looking for is either. "I didn't think so either."
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I meant in close combat.
Wasn't his death because of a FS he summoned during his duel with Luke? (Going by TOW, which is based on the comic. LS could help here.)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Yoda has lifted heavier things than Sidious. Does that make Yoda better? No. It is obvious in their duel. Sidious has shown to be very proficient with TK. Yoda could have lifted a hundred pods, seeing how he lifted entire landing crafts, which are about a hundred times the size of a pod. Sidious seemed to be a little more proficient with TK.
That is a different argument, but keep in mind that
a. Yoda does not, as a matter of principle, use the Force as a weapon.
b. Yoda at this point was on the defensive, and Sidious held the high ground.

Do you think that Yoda, who levitated an X-Wing, could not levitate 3 pods at once?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Stop using bad arguements and examples.
Stop being intentionally dense.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis




When compared with lifting the Ravager it is simple. To raise a kilometer long ship while keeping its structural integrity sound, off of a planet requires both power (to achieve escape velocity) and skill (to keep the ship from tearing itself apart) FAR beyond what Vader has shown. His most impressive feat is that he crushed a house, the equivalent of a tin can. To implode the house he had to contend with the innate crystalline intermolecular structure of durasteel. N. had to defy gravity.

. If he is "far" beyond vader wouldn't that mean that he would be "far" beyond the most powerful sith lord(palpatine) in history too?

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
If he is "far" beyond vader wouldn't that mean that he would be "far" beyond the most powerful sith lord(palpatine) in history too?

I thought palpy was the greatest not necessarily the most powerful..

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
If he is "far" beyond vader wouldn't that mean that he would be "far" beyond the most powerful sith lord(palpatine) in history too?

In regards to skill in TK, very possibly. His showing is greater than any of Palpatine's TK showings that I know of.


Originally posted by kotorfan
I thought palpy was the greatest not necessarily the most powerful..
Don't let LS or (yahwe forbid) Gideon hear you say that. Or type it. Or even think it. Because you thought wrong. Darth Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
In regards to skill in TK, very possibly. His showing is greater than any of Palpatine's TK showings that I know of.


Its plausible and its probably true as palpy has yet to demonstrate any TK feats, personally i think vader and SK surpasses Palpy there but what i wanted to say earlier was that if N could easily tool vader with TK, wouldn't it be logical to assume that N could do it to palpatine who is only 20% more powerful than vader?

I mean that for nihilus to lift such a massive object wouldn't it have taken him a little time to "charge up" his power considering its such a massive feat? I mean it took bane a few seconds to charge up enough energy to merely wreck he foundations of an old temple with his TK wave.

Not downplaying N's feat or anything but i just thought of this point, hell i rarely debate in SW now since i focus alot more on the gym and nutrition and school

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Its plausible and its probably true as palpy has yet to demonstrate any TK feats, personally i think vader and SK surpasses Palpy there but what i wanted to say earlier was that if N could easily tool vader with TK, wouldn't it be logical to assume that N could do it to palpatine who is only 20% more powerful than vader?

I mean that for nihilus to lift such a massive object wouldn't it have taken him a little time to "charge up" his power considering its such a massive feat? I mean it took bane a few seconds to charge up enough energy to merely wreck he foundations of an old temple with his TK wave.

Not downplaying N's feat or anything but i just thought of this point, hell i rarely debate in SW now since i focus alot more on the gym and nutrition and school


well what if he wanted to land.. and take off again. I agree it would take some time but it shouldn't take that much time cuz he would never get where he wanted to go..

SIDIOUS66, you win.

(win = bore/nauseate me into resignment)

Originally posted by kotorfan
well what if he wanted to land.. and take off again. I agree it would take some time but it shouldn't take that much time cuz he would never get where he wanted to go.. Huh???

Originally posted by kotorfan
well what if he wanted to land.. and take off again. I agree it would take some time but it shouldn't take that much time cuz he would never get where he wanted to go..

This is the single most assinine, ignorant and pathetic thing I've heard/seen through my entirely terrible day.

1. Capital ships don't land.
2. N. has little need to land anyway.
3. The ravager has snub fighters which can land.

Everything about this thought was simply wrong. I'm sorry, because I know I'm projecting, but this was just bad.

I didn't even understand it.

Edit:

asinine

I ignored spellcheck. I've gotta go to bed.

Assinine was actually appropriate.

Originally posted by kotorfan
well what if he wanted to land.. and take off again. I agree it would take some time but it shouldn't take that much time cuz he would never get where he wanted to go.. I'm sorry, I don't speak Nonsense.

And Schwarz's point on it taking time to power up was the basis of my previous argument that Vader could perhaps beat Nihilus. Until it's said how long Nihilus takes to do what he does, then it's actually just plain stupid to include him in any Vs.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis




When compared with lifting the Ravager it is simple. To raise a kilometer long ship while keeping its structural integrity sound, off of a planet requires both power (to achieve escape velocity) and skill (to keep the ship from tearing itself apart) FAR beyond what Vader has shown. His most impressive feat is that he crushed a house, the equivalent of a tin can. To implode the house he had to contend with the innate crystalline intermolecular structure of durasteel. N. had to defy gravity.

Ok listen. Vader crushing a large hut, and Nihilus lifting the Ravager, are both extremely hard force feats. Crushing a cardboard box is very simple for a regular human to do, but lifting several tons of cardboard is impossible even for the strongest human. That example makes Vader's feat seem very weak.




What difference does it make. It is still something Luke has never done.




Nihilus has shown a better example of raw power, not skill.




Not quite.




Again, how is that the same situation? Vader was in battle; Nihilus was trying to get off world, which the only way was to lift Ravager. Why would Vader need to lift a ship in a battle with Starkiller?




And different tactics were needed in different situations. Vader never needed to lift a ship.



It took the combined efforts of Luke, Leia, and the unborn child, to envolope Sidious in the power of the lightside and cut him off his power.




That was kinda my point. Yoda has demonstrated more raw power than Sidious as far as TK, but could not overcome him in it in battle.

a) Why not? We see him use the force as a weapon all the time, like when he force threw Sidious over the desk, or when he threw the pod back at Sidious.

b) It looked more to me that Sidious was on the defensive. Yoda was the one that kept coming at Sidious, and Sidious was trying to keep him away. Besides what does high ground have to do with TK?



TK was Vader's strongest point. We never see Vader do much of anything besides casually using TK. So if Nihilus is far greater than Vader in Vader's greatest area, that would make Nihilus far greater than Vader as far as power goes. Seeing how Vader was only 20% lower than Sidious, i don't see how Nihilus is far more powerful.


@ Lucien:

You are going to try and insult me, when you do nothing on these threads, but make stupid and unfunny sarcastic jokes. My guess is you don't get enough attention or laughs in public, so you use websites so your jokes can be heard, and probably imagine the people on the other side of the computer are laughing.

Sids i'm pretty sure i speak for everyone: repeating the same thing over and over is getting tiresome. because you just wish to cling to the idiotic notion that vader's crushing of hut is as awe inspiring as nihilus lifting a 1200 meter star ship.



ok, since you seem to be unable to understand red's example.i'll try to make it simple.

he was never comparing it to a card board box the card board box is an EXAMPLE of the hut. he was comparing crushing a cardboad box(hut) to lifting a dumbell(ravager) crushing a cardbox is EASIER compared to lifting a dumbell....a cardboard box has less mass and weight compared to a dumbell.

in the same sense. smashing a hut is far fricking easier when compared to lifting a hunded thousand ton battleship out of the gravitational pull of a planet. do you understand gravitational pull? obviously not.otherwise you would realize how ridiculous your argument is.



it makes a huge difference. luke is not a dark sider,naturally he has never used it.why would luke use a dark side power? your logic is illogical.




moving a massive 1200 meter ship out of a planet's gravitational pull isn't great skill. WTF.



the point is both were desperate situations.use your head son.



what the hell does that have to do with anything? he's probably insulting you because you refuse to admit defeat and continue with your nonsensical crap. i can't say it isn't tempting.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
Sids i'm pretty sure i speak for everyone: repeating the same thing over and over is getting tiresome. because you just wish to cling to the idiotic notion that vader's crushing of hut is as awe inspiring as nihilus lifting a 1200 meter star ship.

Coming from someone who keeps repeating his arguements.



I know where he is trying to get at, but he used a poor example. Maybe the hut has way less weight than the ravager, but if the hut was as strong as durasteel the mass would be pretty much the same.

Again, i was not only comparing the hut alone to the feat with the ravager. I was given an example, showing that Vader does not lack in raw power.

I was just using your guys examples. I can lift 100 pounds easy over my head, but i can't crush a ten pound dumbbell, even though the ten pound dumbbell is a lot lighter. I was the one using the dumbbel example not Faunus or Red. That shows you are not paying attention.

Coming from someone who is using false claims about SW.





And your comments on SW is simply wrong. Have you even read DE? If so you would see how wrong your comment was.

Tell you what leave the arguement to Faunus, or even Red. You do not seem to have a lot of knowledge on EU.






Who said it didn't take skill? It is more raw power than skill though. It doesn't take a lot skill to lift something. Say someone benched 500 pounds. Would it take a lot of skill to bench it, or a lot of raw power? It don't matter how skillful you are at lifting, if you don't have the raw power, you won't lift anything extremely heavy.



That required different tactics. Nihilus's situation required lifting a ship. Vader's situatiion didn't.

Use YOUR head.



It was a personal comment at Lucien. But i wouldn't expect you to know that, because it would require paying attention and reading.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Coming from someone who keeps repeating his arguements.Good one.

Holy. Shit. The laws of physics are not with you.

No one said he "lacks in raw power," the point is that his raw power doesn't compare to Nihilus's based on feats.

Except that a.) the weight doesn't affect how hard something is to crush, and b.) the Ravager is considerably more than ten times the weight of the hut, anyway.

It was a shitty, shitty example.

Nice job completely ignoring the point.

And lying.

Your example was, again, retarded. Palpatine did something amazing with a technique that Luke DOES NOT KNOW. Nihilus did something amazing with a technique that Vader DOES know.

You do not seem to have any knowledge on physics. Or logic.

Yet another shitty example.

And if you don't have skill, you can't use your raw power to its fullest. See Anakin Skywalker.

You. Are. RETARDED. I really think you're the densest creature I've ever "debated" with online.

*slow clap*

Which you are not doing.

because you seem to have trouble understanding.





no they wouldn't,not even close. even if the hut is as strong as the star ship it's no where near it's size in mass.



talking to you is giving me a head ache.



well then that's my mistake.




i wasn't not talking about star wars moron. i was TALKING ABOUT PHYSICS.the ones which nihilus had to defy in order to move the ship?





it does take alot of skill to fight against the gravitational pull of a planet. what the hell is wrong with you? you seem to think i'm talking about lifting a ship off a planet's surface. the ravager from what i remember was caught in malachor's orbit.





your claim is vader has shown more skill with tk then nihilus.






actually that's a good idea sids. let me find a wall and bang it against it.



i know it's a personal comment. the point is use a pm.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42

actually that's a good idea sids. let me find a wall and bang it against it. LMFAO

Seriously, Sids, go take a nap.

read this before posting anymore thrash sidious. much ignorance i sense in you.



yes do us all a favor.

Originally posted by Faunus
Good one.

And knowledge is not with you.

Good gracious isn't that what i said? Nihilus has shown us a greater example of raw power.

Exactly what i am saying. Vader did not lift the hut, he crushed it.

And 500 hundred pound is way over 10 times the weight of a 10 pound dumbbell. Idiot.

You never did any better.



And you are completely missing it.

About?

Luke did study the book of anger. Even if Luke knew nothing about the technique, he is still a master of the force, just like Palpatine was. Luke's mastery has never demonstrated anything that compare to the force storm, so Sidious's mastery must be greater. Luke also never shown us anything with raw power that matches Sidious.

Wow look who is talking.

Take a look at your own.

I take it you know nothing about fighting.

My best friend is someone i can not compete with as far as raw power. His punches are a lot harder than mine. I have way more skill than he does. I always overcome him in boxing, because his punches are kind of sloppy, whereas mine are more accurate and precise. More skill would not help my friend release more raw power, but it would help him use his raw power in ways he couldn't.

Another mutual feeling i have towards you.

Not too fast now.

Which you are not doing. Niether was he.


Go pop a pill and calm your nerves.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And knowledge is not with you.

Good gracious isn't that what i said? Nihilus has shown us a greater example of raw power.

Exactly what i am saying. Vader did not lift the hut, he crushed it.

And 500 hundred pound is way over 10 times the weight of a 10 pound dumbbell. Idiot.

You never did any better.



And you are completely missing it.

About?

Luke did study the book of anger. Even if Luke knew nothing about the technique, he is still a master of the force, just like Palpatine was. Lukme's mastery has never demonstrated anything that compare to the force storm, so Sidious's mastery must be greater. Luke also never shown us anything with raw power that matches Sidious.

Wow look who is talking.

Take a look at your own.

I take it you know nothing about fighting.

My best friend is someone i can not compete with as far as raw power. His punches are a lot harder than mine. I have way more skill than he does. I always overcome him in boxing, because his punches are kind of sloppy, whereas mine are more accurate and precise. More skill would not help my friend release more raw power, but it would help him use his raw power in ways he couldn't.

Another mutual feeling i have towards you.

Not too fast now.

Which you are not doing.




*slams head against steel reinforced wall*

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And knowledge is not with you....

And it's not only an example of raw power. Vader's greatest feat was an application of raw power focused by skill. So was Nihilus's.

And...?


I responded to this:

Try to keep up.

Yes I did.

Do you plan on actually addressing any of my points?

Oh wait, I know: "do you plan on talking any of mine i suck at math

Read what I posted. Then read what I responded to.

Sidious's mastery is greater.

This example still sucks, btw.

He tore down a castle after rebuilding it telekinetically, stopped a Force-push that was powered by the combined Force-potential of an entire species, and "with no apparent effort" pinned Jacen Solo - a man who was more powerful than Vader - to a chair.

Wow, go back to school.

Again, mine are awesome.

Because fighting is analogous to lifting or crushing things?

Stop being stupid.

Irrelevant, and rather stupid.

Yeah...

You're not witty. You're embarrassing.

He was. You aren't.

And you can thank for me correcting your butchery of the quote function.

Another post as stupid as this one and I swear I'll PM REX. This crossed the line a page ago, but it's quickly becoming tiresome rather than amusing.

You know what I just realized? The durasteel hut was hollow. It would be no more difficult to destroy it than to crush multiple doors at once, and probably easier. This feat just lost all traces of prestige that it once had. Instead of "crushing a 100 lb. dumbell" it would be better to say "crushing a hollow plastic rattle." It be closer to the actual phenomenon that we saw.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I know where he is trying to get at, but he used a poor example. Maybe the hut has way less weight than the ravager, but if the hut was as strong as durasteel the mass would be pretty much the same.

Because Vader isn't lifting the hut, mass is not a factor. Mass would not affect how difficult the hut would be to crush.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Again, i was not only comparing the hut alone to the feat with the ravager. I was given an example, showing that Vader does not lack in raw power.
1. "I was giving an example" The word you want to use is giving. To say that you were given would imply that we supplied the example showing Vader's strength, which is simply not true.
2. There is no way that it requires more force to crush a small metal hut than it takes to lift a ship into orbit. In terms of Joules, the ship would require more force, and in terms of magic (I hate that word) it would require more Force. N.'s showing is simply more impressive.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I was just using your guys examples. I can lift 100 pounds easy over my head, but i can't crush a ten pound dumbbell, even though the ten pound dumbbell is a lot lighter. I was the one using the dumbbel example not Faunus or Red. That shows you are not paying attention.

The dumbbell is already dense- crushing something implies that its volume is being reduced. Crushing a dumbbell is not the same as crushing a hollow room. I don't even know how to explain just how wrong this analogy is. You are wrong.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And your comments on SW is simply wrong. Have you even read DE? If so you would see how wrong your comment was.

Tell you what leave the arguement to Faunus, or even Red. You do not seem to have a lot of knowledge on EU.
He has shown more logic and high level thinking than you have. I haven't read DE (because comic books suck) so does that mean that I should stop posting? Sigma has done better than you so far, so he should be saying this to you. (So STFU)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Who said it didn't take skill? It is more raw power than skill though. It doesn't take a lot skill to lift something. Say someone benched 500 pounds. Would it take a lot of skill to bench it, or a lot of raw power? It don't matter how skillful you are at lifting, if you don't have the raw power, you won't lift anything extremely heavy.
If you had to use a special technique to raise it, while keeping all of the component parts of the bar from falling apart, then you would be very skilled indeed. Besides, shouldn't you be arguing for the superiority of skill over power, since your case rests on Vader's skillful use of TK "across TEH GALAXY" and not on power (because there is no way that crumpling a hollow metal container- the hut- took more power than lifting the Ravager.)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

That required different tactics. Nihilus's situation required lifting a ship. Vader's situatiion didn't.
So now you're arguing that Vader could lift a ship, but he didn't want to. Your desperation is showing. Get out while you still have your dignity.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Use YOUR head.
That's clever.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

It was a personal comment at Lucien. But i wouldn't expect you to know that, because it would require paying attention and reading.

Are you saying that he wasn't paying attention? His utter demolition of post after post shows that he is. And you do realize of course that he had to read this to respond to it?

As Gideon would say- raise your game or get off the court. I suggest you do the latter, as the former appears to be beyond you.

EDIT: I'm a little behind the times, it seems. Sorry about the late post. I'll work on the most recent ones now.

Come to think of it, I've never read DE either.

I read TOW. I'm going to make a motion in Project Holocron for it to replace DE as canon.

I'm going to make a motion to burn both. To(t?)W is decent writing, but anything based off of or making mention of DE deserves to be hurled into damnation.

Decent writing?

Honestly, Faunus, that's the understatement of the century. Publius is among the finest authors I've ever encountered and certainly better than any of LFL's licensed authors. Any post-RotJ Sith literature needs to burn. Not that it matters, Palpatine is still the greatest and most powerful Sith even without it.

I read a really great story called Into the Storm about an alternate universe where Luke was captured by Vader at the end of ESB and brought before the Emperor. It concerns Palpatine versus Luke in a battle of wills. It's amazing. Veneficus loves it, too, and it has the most chilling Palpatine I've ever read. Better than Publius's, even.

Originally posted by Gideon
Decent writing?

Honestly, Faunus, that's the understatement of the century. Publius is among the finest authors I've ever encountered and certainly better than any of LFL's licensed authors.When he doesn't get carried away with his metaphors, I prefer Stover. But segments of ToW were certainly more eloquent than anything in current EU.

Which doesn't concern me.

Link?

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4302076/1/Into_the_Storm

That's like suggesting that if you purged the megalomania from Adolf Hitler, he'd be a nice guy. Stover drowns his audience in metaphors and it is a habit. That doesn't mean he's bad -- he's the best author LFL has (with Luceno taking second place). But his metaphors aren't as great as those of Publius nor is his overall writing ability.

Publius > Stover. Not by yards or miles, but the distance is there.



The majority of it, actually. Hell, I can't find a single problem with any of Publius's works. You need to read the Silver Fox chronicles on his website, concerning a thought-criminal aptly named Silver Fox who antagonizes a ruthless, female ISB agent. It's better than ToW and demonstrates that Publius can characterize like no other.



So you say. But I will not be satisfied until you make a post confessing your staunch love for Darth Sidious and Ian McDiarmid. Until then, I will harrass you with Palpatine's victory over his detractors and the infidels!



http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4302076/1/Into_the_Storm

Be warned: Unlike Publius, this story has noticeable grammatical errors and lacks his polish. But the dialogue is, in some places, cleverer, particularly the wordplay between the Emperor and Luke. Vader, Han, Leia, and Mara are all prominent characters, but Luke and Palpatine take centerstage. This story receives dozens of reviews from other amateur authors giving accolades for Blank101's portrayal of Palpatine. I have to agree -- it's far more perverse and chilling than Publius's. But at the same time, it fashions Luke into a formidable enemy.

Edit: Have you read it, Red?

Originally posted by Gideon
That's like suggesting that if you purged the megalomania from Adolf Hitler, he'd be a nice guy. Stover drowns his audience in metaphors and it is a habit. That doesn't mean he's bad -- he's the best author LFL has (with Luceno taking second place). But his metaphors aren't as great as those of Publius nor is his overall writing ability.

Publius > Stover. Not by yards or miles, but the distance is there.I like aspects of both, but they're also irritatingly wordy.

She steals thoughts?

I don't love Ian McDiarmid. I think his performance in the second half of RotS was atrocious.

I've already gone over (twice) how much I favor the OT depictions of the character and his portrayal in Sithisis.

Sweet.

While we are on the subject of fan fiction, have any of you read the stories written by "YodaKenobi" on TF.net?

Originally posted by Gideon
Decent writing?

Honestly, Faunus, that's the understatement of the century. Publius is among the finest authors I've ever encountered and certainly better than any of LFL's licensed authors. Any post-RotJ Sith literature needs to burn. Not that it matters, Palpatine is still the greatest and most powerful Sith even without it.

I read a really great story called Into the Storm about an alternate universe where Luke was captured by Vader at the end of ESB and brought before the Emperor. It concerns Palpatine versus Luke in a battle of wills. It's amazing. Veneficus loves it, too, and it has the most chilling Palpatine I've ever read. Better than Publius's, even.

probably a stupid question but who is publius?

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
probably a stupid question but who is publius?

Gideon's master

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You know what I just realized? The durasteel hut was hollow. It would be no more difficult to destroy it than to crush multiple doors at once, and probably easier. This feat just lost all traces of prestige that it once had. Instead of "crushing a 100 lb. dumbell" it would be better to say "crushing a hollow plastic rattle." It be closer to the actual phenomenon that we saw.


Aside from this battle, are you actually downplaying vaders feats claiming that him crushing a massive hut isn't anything special nor is it a feat at all? And where wa it stated to be hollow? The hut itself or the foundations of it? Just a little confused.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
And where wa it stated to be hollow? The hut itself or the foundations of it? Just a little confused.

well it's a hut dude. all huts are hollow.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
well it's a hut dude. all huts are hollow. I meant the materials made to build the hut, i got the impression he meant the steel was "hollow".

Lets see, so because the hut is hollow vader is just another average joe that was able to crush?

I love how people always like to make vader look extremely weak in the force, sure it doesn't compare to lifting a massive ship that we don't know the full circumstances off but to make it sound as if what vader has done is "nothing special" and imply that the average joe jedi can do it is... absurd.

I don't even know why such a thread was created in the first place and it seems common sense has eluded some people, if nihilus can really annihilate vader with ease then surely he can do the same to emperor palpatine at his peak being only 20% more powerful than vader.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I meant the materials made to build the hut, i got the impression he meant the steel was "hollow".

Lets see, so because the hut is hollow vader is just another average joe that was able to crush?

oh sorry.

i don't think anyone is trying to downplay vader here. he certainly has some amazing feats. but yeah come on, a hollow hut? i think the weakest force user could crush it without struggle.i wouldn't call it his MOST amazing feat.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
oh sorry.

i don't think anyone is trying to downplay vader here. he certainly has some amazing feats. but yeah come on, a hollow hut? i think the weakest force user could crush it without struggle.i wouldn't call it his MOST amazing feat.

NO. I would appreciate it if you let me make my point here. You were incorrect, and I don't want S. to think that was my position.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
NO. I would appreciate it if you let me make my point here. You were incorrect, and I don't want S. to think that was my position.
sorry. i'm not thinking straight right now.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
oh sorry.

i don't think anyone is trying to downplay vader here. he certainly has some amazing feats. but yeah come on, a hollow hut? i think the weakest force user could crush it without struggle. You DO realise if it was as weak as you say, that the hut would collapse by it self?

Its simple, the structure has powerful foundations that supports the entire structure and outright prevents it from collpasing.

So vader didn't merely destroy a "weak hut", he destroyed everything, the foundations, bent steel(steel > organic flesh by the way) and crushed everything that was inside the massive hut.

And any weaking can destroy a massive hut? LOL no offence but that is the most idiotic comment i have ever seen in KMC seriously, i guess a TESB luke in training that could barely lift an X-wing is going to destroy the same massive hut like vader and without breaking any sweat.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
You DO realise if it was as weak as you say, that the hut would collapse by it self?

Its simple, the structure has powerful foundations that supports the entire structure and outright prevents it from collpasing.

So vader didn't merely destroy a "weak hut", he destroyed everything, the foundations, bent steel(steel > organic flesh by the way) and crushed everything that was inside the massive hut.

And any weaking can destroy a massive hut? LOL no offence but that is the most idiotic comment i have ever seen in KMC seriously, i guess a TESB luke in training that could barely lift an X-wing is going to destroy the same massive hut like vader and without breaking any sweat.

like i said. i'm sorry. i'm not thinking straight. i'm working under stress on a hard lesson coupled with a fuzzy head(actually i shouldn't be on this forum) my bad.

Is this famous hut from the force unleashed video game (intro level)?

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Aside from this battle, are you actually downplaying vaders feats claiming that him crushing a massive hut isn't anything special nor is it a feat at all? And where wa it stated to be hollow? The hut itself or the foundations of it? Just a little confused.

The hut has a hollow living space- by its very definition, in order to function it must be hollow.

I was perhaps overzealous in my initial wording, I was just overenthused because I felt that I had found a way to quell the "LULZ 10 LB DUMBBELL" idiocy. The simple fact is that it is easy to compress a tin can, but no so easy to compress an ingot of metal (like a dumbbell.) I had discovered the exact way in which the analogy was flawed. Vader's feat isn't weak, and by no means is it unimpressive. It is not comparable to N. or even his strongest Force Feat.

Anakin Skywalker used the force to demolish durasteel blast doors on the Invisible hand. He used a Force-Scream to demolish a building in Labyrinth of Evil. He is not weak. To use an example like the demolition of a building, (no matter how many nonsensical prefixes are attached to the name of the material it is made of) to counter a feat like Nilihus's The Ravager is absurd.

The destruction of the blast doors is of most interest to me. The force required to bend the metal would be similar to that required to crush the hut, as they were both made of the same material. The only difference between the two events is the direction of the force: On the IH the force came from 1 direction, the hut required multiple angles. The applied energy would be roughly equal, or perhaps proportional to the Hut's size.

........................................................................................

The destruction of a building simply requires less force than the levitation of a warship. To argue otherwise is to argue from ignorance. When compared with N.'s feat, it simply does not measure up.. N.'s TK >>> Vader's. (That we have been shown thus far.)


For the record, I dislike the idea that no-one can be very much better than Vader, simply because no one is allowed to be better than Palpatine. Isn't it ABC logic to say that if N. curbstomps Vader with his TK (which is fact) then he would also curbstomp Sidious? Vader=/=Sidious, and the two have very different approaches to combat and the Force itself. I don't think that Palpatine puts an upper limit on the power of those able to defeat Vader.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The hut has a hollow living space- by its very definition, in order to function it must be hollow.

I was perhaps overzealous in my initial wording, I was just overenthused because I felt that I had found a way to quell the "LULZ 10 LB DUMBBELL" idiocy. The simple fact is that it is easy to compress a tin can, but no so easy to compress an ingot of metal (like a dumbbell.) I had discovered the exact way in which the analogy was flawed. Vader's feat isn't weak, and by no means is it unimpressive. It is not comparable to N. or even his strongest Force Feat.

Anakin Skywalker used the force to demolish durasteel blast doors on the Invisible hand. He used a Force-Scream to demolish a building in Labyrinth of Evil. He is not weak. To use an example like the demolition of a building, (no matter how many nonsensical prefixes are attached to the name of the material it is made of) to counter a feat like Nilihus's The Ravager is absurd.

The destruction of the blast doors is of most interest to me. The force required to bend the metal would be similar to that required to crush the hut, as they were both made of the same material. The only difference between the two events is the direction of the force: On the IH the force came from 1 direction, the hut required multiple angles. The applied energy would be roughly equal, or perhaps proportional to the Hut's size.

........................................................................................

The destruction of a building simply requires less force than the levitation of a warship. To argue otherwise is to argue from ignorance. When compared with N.'s feat, it simply does not measure up.. N.'s TK >>> Vader's. (That we have been shown thus far.)


For the record, I dislike the idea that no-one can be very much better than Vader, simply because no one is allowed to be better than Palpatine. Isn't it ABC logic to say that if N. curbstomps Vader with his TK (which is fact) then he would also curbstomp Sidious? Vader=/=Sidious, and the two have very different approaches to combat and the Force itself. I don't think that Palpatine puts an upper limit on the power of those able to defeat Vader.

just curious but when did vader do this feat? was it the force unleashed? or some novel or comic?

I have now. I thought it was very good. I didn't like how Leia/Han were just sort of dropped before the climax. There should have been some closure in that story arc. Aside from the errors (of which there were many) It rivals TOW as a feat of Fanfiction.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The hut has a hollow living space- by its very definition, in order to function it must be hollow.

I was perhaps overzealous in my initial wording, I was just overenthused because I felt that I had found a way to quell the "LULZ 10 LB DUMBBELL" idiocy. The simple fact is that it is easy to compress a tin can, but no so easy to compress an ingot of metal (like a dumbbell.) I had discovered the exact way in which the analogy was flawed. Vader's feat isn't weak, and by no means is it unimpressive. It is not comparable to N. or even his strongest Force Feat.

Anakin Skywalker used the force to demolish durasteel blast doors on the Invisible hand. He used a Force-Scream to demolish a building in Labyrinth of Evil. He is not weak. To use an example like the demolition of a building, (no matter how many nonsensical prefixes are attached to the name of the material it is made of) to counter a feat like Nilihus's The Ravager is absurd.

The destruction of the blast doors is of most interest to me. The force required to bend the metal would be similar to that required to crush the hut, as they were both made of the same material. The only difference between the two events is the direction of the force: On the IH the force came from 1 direction, the hut required multiple angles. The applied energy would be roughly equal, or perhaps proportional to the Hut's size.

........................................................................................

The destruction of a building simply requires less force than the levitation of a warship. To argue otherwise is to argue from ignorance. When compared with N.'s feat, it simply does not measure up.. N.'s TK >>> Vader's. (That we have been shown thus far.)


For the record, I dislike the idea that no-one can be very much better than Vader, simply because no one is allowed to be better than Palpatine. Isn't it ABC logic to say that if N. curbstomps Vader with his TK (which is fact) then he would also curbstomp Sidious? Vader=/=Sidious, and the two have very different approaches to combat and the Force itself. I don't think that Palpatine puts an upper limit on the power of those able to defeat Vader. No body is arguing that vaders TK surpasses that of N except SID 66 but thanks for clearing that up.

But why i brought up the If N could >>>> Vader that he could >>> Sid as well is not simply because of that stupid A>B>C nonsense crap that anime fanwankers love to employ.

While it is true that vader and palpatines approach to combat and the force, how does that stop palpatine from getting raped by TK that lifted a ship and crushed his apprentice? There are people who make it sound like vader isn't going to conjure up any kind of defence or a counter attack and just outright let N annihilate him with the force.

I just don't get it, if such aw3s0m3 TK is going to curbstomp vader, i can see the same happening to someone merely 20% more powerful even if his approach to combat is different.


EDIT: If his TK can really cause so much damage, why wasn't it emplyed during the battle against the exile in his ship? Yes he was weakened and was going to get killed but i still don't see why he wouldn't employ TK to disarm them or even kill them.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
EDIT: If his TK can really cause so much damage, why wasn't it emplyed during the battle against the exile in his ship? Yes he was weakened and was going to get killed but i still don't see why he wouldn't employ TK to disarm them or even kill them. The cut-content had him doing just that; levitating the Exile and Visas. He also did something rather confusing to Sion; a combination of some sort of drain, lightning, and telekinesis that killed Sion's guards and brought the Sith Lord to his knees. Kinda cool.

stupid plot elements? kotor 2 didn't have the best of plot or thinking behind it's story.

Originally posted by Faunus
...

Nihilus still has never shown the skill to reach out across the vast distance of space and strangle someone.

And it is a different technique entirely. It would be differet if Vader lifted the hut, and i compare it to Nihilus lifting the Ravager.


You keep comparing the weight, which is irrelevent, because Vader did not lift the hut, he crushed it.

You are going in circles, and not getting my point.

No you didn't.

Do you plan on getting mine?

What?



what was i lying about?

And by showings his raw power is to.

If you claim it sucks, than you are admitting your own arguement sucks.

And you are comparing that to being able to ravage cities from a distance, crushing entire star fleets, or tear surfaces off worlds?

Also in Star Wars: The comics companion, it stated that Sidious's force storm threatened to consume all of space. Luke has never demonstrated that kind of power. So that makes Palpatine > Luke as far as the force goes, period.

Can't say the same about you. They won't even consider you.

I know because you said so.

Faunus > All, even the writers of SW.

Not when fighting with the force. Unless you are saying they are just going to stand there and have a competition of who can lift the most, or crush the most.

You are having doubts about your own arguements, so you resort to the insults.

Take a pill, and calm your nerves.

So was your cardboard box example.

Oh, you bet.

LOL. Am i embarrassing you?

Are you blind or clue-less?

Again you resort to sarcastic insults.



Be my guessed. What are you going to tell him, " I can't prove Sidious66 wrong, so i start insulting him. Can you please tell him to agree with me, even though i keep up insulting him?"

Your examples were no better that mine. No matter what you say, i don't believe Nihilus has more skill in TK. Vader has shown he can do just about everything with TK.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Aside from this battle, are you actually downplaying vaders feats claiming that him crushing a massive hut isn't anything special nor is it a feat at all? And where wa it stated to be hollow? The hut itself or the foundations of it? Just a little confused.

They have no proof that the hut was hollow. The book says the walls of the hut was as strong as durasteel. Of course the inside may be hollow, but that does not mean the wall were.

faunus and red gave you detailed explanations about the laws of physics and why your points were wrong. all you have done is brushed them aside and made the bold claim your examples were better. this thread is pointless because you just want to win,no matter what. you have simply said nothing to prove them wrong.deal with it and move on.and yes i know it isn't my business. but it needs to be said.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
faunus and red gave you detailed explanations about the laws of physics and why your points were wrong. all you have done is brushed them aside and made the bold claim your examples were better. this thread is pointless because you just want to win,no matter what. you have simply said nothing to prove them wrong.deal with it and move on.and yes i know it isn't my business. but it needs to be said.

They never proved that Nihilus was more skilled in TK than Vader. Red keeps saying it takes skill to hold Ravager together, when we know he didn't. When Nihilus was killed the ravager was still held together. Was he holding it together even though he was dead?

The weight lifting examples they gave were poor, so i used Faunus's example against him. I said lifting 600 hundred pounds in the air was a lot easier than crushing a small 10 pound dubbell.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They never proved that Nihilus was more skilled in TK than Vader. Red keeps saying it takes skill to hold Ravager together, when we know he didn't. When Nihilus was killed the ravager was still held together. Was he holding it together even though he was dead?

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dontgetitbanginbashblowup



they have. the sad thing is they shouldn't have to. i've been wrong in this thread 66,but i can admit that. why can't you? why is it so hard?
your points make no sense..actually you've made none.



my knowledge of physics is nowhere near his. but you have to be quite dense to have missed his point this many times....

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
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dontgetitbanginbashblowup



they have. the sad thing is they shouldn't have to. i've been wrong in this thread 66,but i can admit that. why can't you? why is it so hard?
your points make no sense..actually you've made none.

No you have made none. Go read Red's comments early in the post. He was unsure who would win in a force contest. Now he is saying Nihilus's power greatly surpasses Vader. So should i take him seriously?

are you some kind of idiot?(yes) i tried my best to point out how amazing N.s feat was by explaining the physics N defyed. red explained these much more better then i could,he went into detail and gave examples. by saying i've made no point. you argue against logic. by saying they've made no point. you show your inability to understand even the simplest example AND logic.

BTW Sigma, you claim i have made no points. Here was yours:



Then you claim that any force user can crush a hut. Red tells you that is not what he was saying, and then you say oh sorry i was tired(or something like that). That only proves you are going by his word. You are only following the majority of the crowd. Does being tired affect your opinion? Think for your self, please.

i thought i just said i admitted i was wrong two posts ago? did you missed that?

here it is:" i've been wrong in this thread 66,but i can admit that."

i'm not arrogant. i'll admit when i say/do something stupid.



i agree with him you retard. i wouldn't agree with,or trust him if he wasn't using credible information.



was that why i was disagreeing with him on page 1?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I have now. I thought it was very good. I didn't like how Leia/Han were just sort of dropped before the climax. There should have been some closure in that story arc. Aside from the errors (of which there were many) It rivals TOW as a feat of Fanfiction.

You should take a look at the stories that YodaKenobi has written and is in the process of writing on theforce.net He has his own storyline that starts a NJO AU and then he continues from there into another series. I'm not sure how they compare to TOW (I haven't read it yet) but they are better than a lot of the canon stories out there now. Though I should mention that they aren't exactly short.

His NJO AU storyline is made up of the following:

"Revolution": http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12867139
"The Eight Cortex": http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=14085947
"The Living Force": http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/16202587/

Next he wrote a story(takes place in the same AU as the above) to set up his next series called "Empire of the Hand": http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/18632333/

The next series(same storyline) which he is currently working on is called "Legacy of The Sith" which I believe will have at least 4 "books" to it.

"The Age of Heroes": http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/22242853/p1/
"Exodus": http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/26099579/p1
He is currently working on the third part of the series called "The Lands of The Dead" http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28522077/p1/

Originally posted by Faunus
The cut-content had him doing just that; levitating the Exile and Visas. He also did something rather confusing to Sion; a combination of some sort of drain, lightning, and telekinesis that killed Sion's guards and brought the Sith Lord to his knees. Kinda cool. Yeah cut content is non canon but if it was canon i wouldn't be bringing this up, i'm assuming its plot induced stupidity that led nihilus to get his balls kicked along with the fact that the exact circumstances of the battle are unknown.

Nihilus wins for the record.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
stupid plot elements? kotor 2 didn't have the best of plot or thinking behind it's story. Yeah i guess.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I have now. I thought it was very good. I didn't like how Leia/Han were just sort of dropped before the climax. There should have been some closure in that story arc. Aside from the errors (of which there were many) It rivals TOW as a feat of Fanfiction.

An absolutely chilling Palpatine.

Hm, Vader is like a massive Force dinner for Nihilus, all that power will be eaten up like chowdah lol

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
i thought i just said i admitted i was wrong two posts ago? did you missed that? All you did was follow the crowd.

Good for you.

Where was i wrong at? I admitted that Nihilus has shown a greater example of raw power, but Vader has shown greater skill. Vader was able to reach out lightyears away and strangle Xizor, which takes a lot of mastery and skill. I know Faunus has argued Mara and Nadd can do the same. We know it is easy for Mara and Luke to feel each other through the force. They are both force sensitive, and have a bond with each other. Nadd was a force ghost, and force ghosts can do some strange things that physical beings can't. Like how Kun was able to instantly appear anywhere he wanted on Yavin, at any time. Now if Kun was not a force ghost, i doubt he would be able to do this.

The crowd doesn't need to give you much of an expalnation to shape your opinion.



Except he did not give you an explanation regarding the hut. He simply told you you were wrong, when you claimed any force user can crush a hut, then your mind suddenly changed with a "Oh sorry i was tired."



So do you still disagree?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Hm, Vader is like a massive Force dinner for Nihilus, all that power will be eaten up like chowdah lol Showder.

Isn't this typical of these forums? Four pages of argument on topic dissolve into people trying to negate debating tactics and manners. It's beautiful.

And SIDS, I got your zinger at me. Nice! If you weren't trying to defy all reason I'd give you a high five.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They never proved that Nihilus was more skilled in TK than Vader. Red keeps saying it takes skill to hold Ravager together, when we know he didn't. When Nihilus was killed the ravager was still held together. Was he holding it together even though he was dead?

Inertia 101: Things at rest tend to stay at rest unless an outside force acts upon them. In this case, it was N's Force acting upon various parts of the ship. If it was lifted unevenly, or if one part was lifted with too much force, or if a different part was allowed to sag, then gravity would tear the ship apart. That is why it took skill for the Ravager to be lifted out of the gravity of the planet. If you want to say "LULZ WE NOW IT DIDNT" then go ahead, but the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. If you could find evidence that supports your contention that it required no skill, or something that shows that maintaining structural integrity was simply part of the lift, then I'd be wrong. But I'm not.

In space there was no force (gravity) acting upon the ship that would pull it apart. It clearly maintained some structural integrity, but as a spaceship that was never designed to land it would not survive the exodus from Malachor's gravity without the Force keeping it intact.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

The weight lifting examples they gave were poor, so i used Faunus's example against him. I said lifting 600 hundred pounds in the air was a lot easier than crushing a small 10 pound dubbell.

If you want to compare it to crushing a tin can, go ahead. To crush a (presumably solid) dumbbell would require compressing it to such a degree that the pressure caused a temperature increase. It can't be done with human strength. There is where your analogy fails. It is not reduced nearly as much as the cardboard box is. In other words: The analogy Lifting the ravager is like lifting a cardboard box is for a human would best be compared with the analogy crushing a durasteel hut is like crushing a tin can for a human. Yours does not fit in.

The Ravager ......The hut
--------------- = -------------
Lifting a box ..... a tin can



The Ravager..........The hut
--------------- =/= --------------
Lifting a box.........a dumbbell

The analogies aren't compatible.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No you have made none. Go read Red's comments early in the post. He was unsure who would win in a force contest. Now he is saying Nihilus's power greatly surpasses Vader. So should i take him seriously?

So my opinion is no longer valid because I thought more? You are getting desperate. At first I was unsure of who would win. Upon further consideration I determined that N. would win. This does not undermine my point, as I have not contradicted myself.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


Inertia 101: Things at rest tend to stay at rest unless an outside force acts upon them. In this case, it was N's Force acting upon various parts of the ship. If it was lifted unevenly, or if one part was lifted with too much force, or if a different part was allowed to sag, then gravity would tear the ship apart. That is why it took skill for the Ravager to be lifted out of the gravity of the planet. If you want to say "LULZ WE NOW IT DIDNT" then go ahead, but the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. If you could find evidence that supports your contention that it required no skill, or something that shows that maintaining structural integrity was simply part of the lift, then I'd be wrong. But I'm not.

In space there was no force (gravity) acting upon the ship that would pull it apart. It clearly maintained some structural integrity, but as a spaceship that was never designed to land it would not survive the exodus from Malachor's gravity without the Force keeping it intact.


If you want to compare it to crushing a tin can, go ahead. To crush a (presumably solid) dumbbell would require compressing it to such a degree that the pressure caused a temperature increase. It can't be done with human strength. There is where your analogy fails. It is not reduced nearly as much as the cardboard box is. In other words: The analogy Lifting the ravager is like lifting a cardboard box is for a human would best be compared with the analogy crushing a durasteel hut is like crushing a tin can for a human. Yours does not fit in.

The Ravager ......The hut
--------------- = -------------
Lifting a box ..... a tin can



The Ravager..........The hut
--------------- =/= --------------
Lifting a box.........a dumbbell

The analogies aren't compatible.




So my opinion is no longer valid because I thought more? You are getting desperate. At first I was unsure of who would win. Upon further consideration I determined that N. would win. This does not undermine my point, as I have not contradicted myself.

Except the ship was supposedly wrecked and un-usable; it was crushed. This is contradicted, because it is running fine, even after his death. Can you find proof that he had it repaired, or used the force to repair it.

For the record, it is harder to crush a tin can, than it is to lift a cardboard box

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except the ship was supposedly wrecked and un-usable; it was crushed. This is contradicted, because it is running fine, even after his death. Can you find proof that he had it repaired, or used the force to repair it.
It's quite obvious that he didn't repair it; there are still portions open to hard vacuum. We now have 2 contradicting canon sources, but I believe that KotOR takes precedence. (because it rocks my sox off.) If Kotor is to be believed, then we have N lifting a mostly intact ship off of the surface of a planet. This is a valid feat, as it is canon. Wisely, you have not disputed this. He had to maintain its integrity as he lifted it miles into the air. This shows both power and skill.

Vader is shown in TFU to crush a durasteel hut. This would consist of him crumpling the various walls. Therefore the feat is essentially the destruction of several sheets of durasteel simultaneously. Do you really want to argue that crushing 12 (6 planes in a cube, doubled to account for walls) sheets of metal took more overall force than to lift a kilometer long spaceship, while having to maintain the structural integrity (such as it was) of said ship? You have to see reason.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

For the record, it is harder to crush a tin can, than it is to lift a cardboard box
Therein lies the dificulty in comparing such larger than life accomplishments to daily life. There is no common analog to lifting a 1200 meter spaceship. We (and clearly you) simply can't grasp the massive quantities of energy we are dealing with.

In a last, probably misguided attempt to show the utter failure of the analogies this far, lets quantify the force. We'll use nice round numbers, and I think that I have to say that I'm pulling the figures out of my ass. This isn't definitive, it is meant as an example of how phrasing the accomplishments in today's terms warps and skews the comparison.

Force required to lift Ravager: 100,000
Force required to crush 12 metal plates: 1000

Note: the units or even specific numbers are irrelevant. Focus on how the relationship between the two figures changes as we cram them into everyday situations.

Human experience occupies a very small portion of reality: everything travels very slowly in comparison with c, matter is impermeable to other matter, and our physical perceptions and ability to shape our environment are extremely limited. (We see only a sliver of the EM spectrum and our bodies exert relatively small amounts of force on our environment.) To fit the number 100,000 into our experience, we have to diminish it and compare it to our own world. The metaphor of choice here was "lifting a cardboard box." This seems valid, as in both cases an object is lifted. How about we call lifting a cardboard box equal to 10 units.

The problem arises when we try to find a everyday analogue to crushing something. Clearly we can't just say "lifted something lighter" because a very different motion is being attempted. We have to find something that we crush that would be as easy in comparrison to crushing durasteel as lifting a box was to lifting the Ravager. If lifting the box is equal to .0001 times the force of the Ravager, then crushing this object must be equal to .0001 times the force to crush the metal. We need something two orders off magnitude easier to do than lift a cardboard box. I know of no such thing. Perhaps crumpling a sheet of paper.

Now we have:
Lifting the Ravager = 100,000 : lifting a box = 10
We had to find a similar ratio.
Crushing the hut = 1000 : crumpling a piece of paper = .1


In both cases, the original force was multiplied by .0001 to cram it into human life. This shows why a piece of paper was a better analogy, but what happens if we use a tin can?

Lifting the Ravager = 100,000 : lifting a box = 10 (just like before)
Crushing the hut = 1000 : Crushing a tin can = ________

The tin can has to be > lifting a box (I think- does anyone know for sure which takes more effort?) but it destroys the equation. It changes the setup from a formula into an inequality,
(100000 : 1000 =/= 10 : )
which just shows that the tin can simply does not fit here. It might if you would replace the cardboard box with, say, a car, but your analogy is flawed. The fact that it can be proved mathematically just shows how far off base you were.

I hope you followed this, because I might have the patience for one more response without an ad homenim. I don't know if I can keep this up without flaming someone.



Aw heck, I can't resist: You haven't got a shred of an argument left. Give it up.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

It's quite obvious that he didn't repair it; there are still portions open to hard vacuum. We now have 2 contradicting canon sources, but I believe that KotOR takes precedence. (because it rocks my sox off.) If Kotor is to be believed, then we have N lifting a mostly intact ship off of the surface of a planet. This is a valid feat, as it is canon. Wisely, you have not disputed this. He had to maintain its integrity as he lifted it miles into the air. This shows both power and skill.

Vader is shown in TFU to crush a durasteel hut. This would consist of him crumpling the various walls. Therefore the feat is essentially the destruction of several sheets of durasteel simultaneously. Do you really want to argue that crushing 12 (6 planes in a cube, doubled to account for walls) sheets of metal took more overall force than to lift a kilometer long spaceship, while having to maintain the structural integrity (such as it was) of said ship? You have to see reason.


Therein lies the dificulty in comparing such larger than life accomplishments to daily life. There is no common analog to lifting a 1200 meter spaceship. We (and clearly you) simply can't grasp the massive quantities of energy we are dealing with.

In a last, probably misguided attempt to show the utter failure of the analogies this far, lets quantify the force. We'll use nice round numbers, and I think that I have to say that I'm pulling the figures out of my ass. This isn't definitive, it is meant as an example of how phrasing the accomplishments in today's terms warps and skews the comparison.

Force required to lift Ravager: 100,000
Force required to crush 12 metal plates: 1000

Note: the units or even specific numbers are irrelevant. Focus on how the relationship between the two figures changes as we cram them into everyday situations.

Human experience occupies a very small portion of reality: everything travels very slowly in comparison with c, matter is impermeable to other matter, and our physical perceptions and ability to shape our environment are extremely limited. (We see only a sliver of the EM spectrum and our bodies exert relatively small amounts of force on our environment.) To fit the number 100,000 into our experience, we have to diminish it and compare it to our own world. The metaphor of choice here was "lifting a cardboard box." This seems valid, as in both cases an object is lifted. How about we call lifting a cardboard box equal to 10 units.

The problem arises when we try to find a everyday analogue to crushing something. Clearly we can't just say "lifted something lighter" because a very different motion is being attempted. We have to find something that we crush that would be as easy in comparrison to crushing durasteel as lifting a box was to lifting the Ravager. If lifting the box is equal to .0001 times the force of the Ravager, then crushing this object must be equal to .0001 times the force to crush the metal. We need something two orders off magnitude easier to do than lift a cardboard box. I know of no such thing. Perhaps crumpling a sheet of paper.

Now we have:
Lifting the Ravager = 100,000 : lifting a box = 10
We had to find a similar ratio.
Crushing the hut = 1000 : crumpling a piece of paper = .1


In both cases, the original force was multiplied by .0001 to cram it into human life. This shows why a piece of paper was a better analogy, but what happens if we use a tin can?

Lifting the Ravager = 100,000 : lifting a box = 10 (just like before)
Crushing the hut = 1000 : Crushing a tin can = ________

The tin can has to be > lifting a box (I think- does anyone know for sure which takes more effort?) but it destroys the equation. It changes the setup from a formula into an inequality,
(100000 : 1000 =/= 10 : )
which just shows that the tin can simply does not fit here. It might if you would replace the cardboard box with, say, a car, but your analogy is flawed. The fact that it can be proved mathematically just shows how far off base you were.

I hope you followed this, because I might have the patience for one more response without an ad homenim. I don't know if I can keep this up without flaming someone.



Aw heck, I can't resist: You haven't got a shred of an argument left. Give it up.

I can argue that Nihilus only lifted several sheets of durasteel, since it consists of mainly open space. Besides i already told you i am not comparing those two feats alone. I was using the hut example, along with him catching heavy pillars, and tearing down a bridge, to show Vader does not entirely lack raw power. Then i used the example of him being able to kill someone across the vast distance of space, to show that he is awesome with skill. Vader also force gripped Starkiller and threw him out the view port rather easy.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I can argue that Nihilus only lifted several sheets of durasteel, since it consists of mainly open space.
A warship also has weapons, sensors, armor, subsystems, engines, smaller snub fighters, God Damned Shield Generators and is a FU*KING KILOMETER LONG. This is the last straw. No one this stupid deserves my attention. You're on ignore.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Besides i already told you i am not comparing those two feats alone.
The point remains that none of Vader's TK feats come anywhere close to matching this. N is miles and miles ahead of Vader.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I was using the hut example,
A very poor one
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

along with him catching heavy pillars, and tearing down a bridge,
Neither of these compare to the Ravager. N's applied power >>>> Vader's. Fact.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

to show Vader does not entirely lack raw power.
Even I acknowledged that. He is simply dwarfed by N's capabilities.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Then i used the example of him being able to kill someone across the vast distance of space, to show that he is awesome with skill.
How, specifically does this translate to superskill? It shows good visuospatial skills, but I can't imagine that a universal energy field like the force diminishes in power with distance. Yoda could sense every single Jedi, Palpatine could interfere with those same Jedi's perceptions, Palpatine could maintain a link with Mara Jade across the galaxy, Ben Kenobi- by no means a Force God like Yoda and Sidious- could sense the destruction of Alderaan from another dimension while millions of miles away. Heck, Bastilla could sense things happening on Dantooine while she was lightyears away. Distant use of the Force is nothing special.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Vader also force gripped Starkiller and threw him out the view port rather easy.
And this is more impressive than lifting a F'ing spaceship because...?


Edit: Screw it. You win. A headless ewok is better than Palpatine. LotF Luke got killed by Knightfa11's create a sith. (the parody) I'm done with you. You are by far the least intelligent human I've ever met online- including Youtube. (BOOG wasn't human- you've got him beat for now.)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader also force gripped Starkiller and threw him out the view port rather easy.
After Vader unexpectedly stabbed in the back and based on what Marek says in that scene, he clearly was not trying to defend himself.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

How, specifically does this translate to superskill? It shows good visuospatial skills, but I can't imagine that a universal energy field like the force diminishes in power with distance. Yoda could sense every single Jedi, Palpatine could interfere with those same Jedi's perceptions, Palpatine could maintain a link with Mara Jade across the galaxy, Ben Kenobi- by no means a Force God like Yoda and Sidious- could sense the destruction of Alderaan from another dimension while millions of miles away. Heck, Bastilla could sense things happening on Dantooine while she was lightyears away. Distant use of the Force is nothing special.

This may sound stupid but it does take skill to attack someone lightyears away, i mean if it isn't i wonder why some people taker naads force push over vodo so seriously.

Well thats like saying "Its easy to scope in on this terrorist x miles away, but it doesn't take any skill to actually shoot him with accuracy since other dicks can scope in on him too".

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

A warship also has weapons, sensors, armor, subsystems, engines, smaller snub fighters, God Damned Shield Generators and is a FU*KING KILOMETER LONG. I was being sarcastic, moron. You were making it seem like Vader's accomplishment was weak. How do you know how thick the walls were. And how do you know what was all in the hut?

Kinda hard to ignore yourself.

As far as raw power no.

No it wasn't. Unless you argue that it did not require raw power.

I am not comparing as far as raw power goes. Are you dumb? I said this billions of times.

I don't think so. Vader has 80% the power of Palpatine.

How many other force user has shown they could kill others at that kind of distance. Palpatine even wrote a book on how to kill others from a great distance.


I can't help how you imagine it. If it was so easy, why don't we see it being used so often.

They are all extreme force users. Besides since when is perception the same as a TK attack?

The destruction of Alderaan caused huge ripples in the force. Those ripples traveled all the way to Kenobi. It was nothing Kenobi did, it was what the death of millions did. Again, you are comparing perception with TK, and they are entirely different. Hell Leia was able to sense Luke was in trouble on Bespin, but had no skill in TK.

When using a TK force attack it is. If distance made no difference, why do we see Sidious trying to run from Yoda, or why do you see Ventress run from Yoda, if all Yoda had to do is reach out and kill her?

Well if i made the same arguement as everyone else in the other debate, i can say well a spaceship is not force sensitive, and Starkiller is. Your comment was exactly what i though, when all you guys tried to argue that Dooku force choking Kenobi, was more impressive than Windu taking out thousands of droids with one force wave.


Run child, run...

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well if i made the same arguement as everyone else in the other debate, i can say well a spaceship is not force sensitive, and Starkiller is.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
After Vader unexpectedly stabbed in the back and based on what Marek says in that scene, he clearly was not trying to defend himself.



When the hell did anyone make that comparison? Though I will say that base on the original cw cartoon of the battle of dantooine that Mace should have been killed, at one point he is completely surrounded by the battle droids (right before the force wave?) and only the ones in front of him fired while the others just stood there....... But Dooku's force choke on Kenobi is more impressive then the force choke/throw on Marek because Kenobi was engaging Dooku in combat along with another elite duelist in Anakin Skywalker but Marek was just stabbed and was begging/trying to convince Vader that together they could beat Palpatine.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kinda hard to ignore yourself. Could anyone make sense of this?

Red said "no one this stupid deserves my attention... you're going on ignore." I guess S66 was trying to say that Red is "this stupid" and thus would have to try and ignore himself.

Clever bastard.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
When the hell did anyone make that comparison? Though I will say that base on the original cw cartoon of the battle of dantooine that Mace should have been killed, at one point he is completely surrounded by the battle droids (right before the force wave?) and only the ones in front of him fired while the others just stood there....... But Dooku's force choke on Kenobi is more impressive then the force choke/throw on Marek because Kenobi was engaging Dooku in combat along with another elite duelist in Anakin Skywalker but Marek was just stabbed and was begging/trying to convince Vader that together they could beat Palpatine.

I meant Ventress. When they said force choking Ventress was real impressive, when she was not even engaging him in battle, and did not expect it. The time Vader threw Starkiller off the mountain, Starkiller had more than enough time to put his force defenses up, but was un-able to break Vader's grip.