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Have you guys ever heard of Dean Radin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Radin

As far as I know hes a scientist that believes in psychic powers and has actually done scientific experiments to prove it (low level pre-cog not blantant stuff like flying or moving objects). Im not sure what to think of it but there were actually debates about him on JREF (James Randi Educational Foundation). There seemed to be two opinions some skeptics thought he was a fraud, other sketpics thought that his experiments were not conclusive but where good enough to warrant further investigation.

What do you think?

P.S. Am I allowed to post a link to another forum that shows some of the debate?

Sounds a bit like remote viewing.

Experiments should always re-done to see if trends can be found, and to eliminate improper testing procedures and interpretations, which lead to false conclusions.

I'd be interested to see results if the same tests were run by a neutral party.

That said, the number of claims of supernatural powers is astounding. The number of confirmed supernatural powers via controlled, double-blind studies conducted by unbiased or at least credible testers is exactly zero. I don't hold any anticipation for this line of testing, though I believe that the studies should continue to be conducted in order to form a more accurate understanding of the truth of the matter, or at least to debunk those who are too quick to jump at the idea of science backing their belief in the paranormal.

Chances are the people at JREF are exactly right, since the number of experiments in this field that have been formally debunked is staggering.

He plays violin, which makes him awesome in my book, but other than that his work seems inconsistent at best. If he's so grounded in the idea of psionics then the moon and vials of sugar shouldn't have any effect on people's powers as any significance they have is magical in nature. And the fact that he has to be published in magazines with poorly thought out titles like "They Laughed at Galileo Too" makes me even less inclined to take him seriously.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
He plays violin, which makes him awesome in my book, but other than that his work seems inconsistent at best. If he's so grounded in the idea of psionics then the moon and vials of sugar shouldn't have any effect on people's powers as any significance they have is magical in nature. And the fact that he has to be published in magazines with poorly thought out titles like "They Laughed at Galileo Too" makes me even less inclined to take him seriously.

Heh.

It's a common rebuttal to say things like "Einstein was considered an idiot..." or some such. But these are the exceptions, the fractions of a percentage at the tip of the bell curve.

Most of the people "they" laughed at deserved to be laughed at, and were never justified in their theories.

Also, you play the violin?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Sounds a bit like remote viewing.

Experiments should always re-done to see if trends can be found, and to eliminate improper testing procedures and interpretations, which lead to false conclusions.

I'd be interested to see results if the same tests were run by a neutral party.

That said, the number of claims of supernatural powers is astounding. The number of confirmed supernatural powers via controlled, double-blind studies conducted by unbiased or at least credible testers is exactly zero. I don't hold any anticipation for this line of testing, though I believe that the studies should continue to be conducted in order to form a more accurate understanding of the truth of the matter, or at least to debunk those who are too quick to jump at the idea of science backing their belief in the paranormal.

Right so you're saying that his method of experimentation is not thorough enough? It seems to be what some other skeptics were saying.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Right so you're saying that his method of experimentation is not thorough enough? It seems to be what some other skeptics were saying.

Right. Psychic experiments are notorious for being susceptible to confirmation bias, as positive results can come about simply by defining "success" vaguely enough to fit the results of the experiment. Any study of this nature that has been properly controlled has fallen flat on its face. Randi himself has spearheaded much of this endeavor.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Heh.

It's a common rebuttal to say things like "Einstein was considered an idiot..." or some such. But these are the exceptions, the fractions of a percentage at the tip of the bell curve.

Most of the people "they" laughed at deserved to be laughed at, and were never justified in their theories.

Galileo is worse, though, his problem was with the church (as opposed to, say the entire scientific community) not with his experiments not making sense. Tesla would be a better example, he came up with all sorts of "crazy" inventions which keep turning out to be feasible and even useful.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Also, you play the violin?

No but I consider it the ideal instrument because it can, in my opinion, express the widest array of emotions without accompaniment.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Right. Psychic experiments are notorious for being susceptible to confirmation bias, as positive results can come about simply by defining "success" vaguely enough to fit the results of the experiment.


Ok but im not sure if you have actually read any of the experiements done by Dean Radin. Are you assuming that its not thorough or do you know....not that I blame you for being skeptical I just need to know.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Any study of this nature that has been properly controlled has fallen flat on its face. Randi himself has spearheaded much of this endeavor.

Fair enough but skpetics on the JREF forum didnt seem to think that his experiement had been proven to be wrong or incorrect they simply said it needed further investigation.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No but I consider it the ideal instrument because it can, in my opinion, express the widest array of emotions without accompaniment.

I'd probably give that distinction to the piano. You can't quite get the same pathos out of it, but it's the easiest to play unaccompanied in nearly any style you want.

But I'm a violinist, so I'm not going to argue. It does rock pretty hard.

Yeah, I'd say piano, too.

Stay on topic...LOL

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Fair enough but skpetics on the JREF forum didnt seem to think that his experiement had been proven to be wrong or incorrect they simply said it needed further investigation.

Exactly. Any good scientist will continue experiments when a result is found, to remove as much error as possible.

But I can also guarantee you that if you told James Randi you'd give him 100/1 odds that the experiments were valid and psychic powers existed, he still wouldn't take the bet. A quick perusal of anything he's ever written or investigated will back me up in that opinion quite thoroughly.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok but im not sure if you have actually read any of the experiements done by Dean Radin. Are you assuming that its not thorough or do you know....not that I blame you for being skeptical I just need to know.



Fair enough but skpetics on the JREF forum didnt seem to think that his experiement had been proven to be wrong or incorrect they simply said it needed further investigation.

To be fair everything can always use further investigation, especially when only one person or one set of people have been performing the experiments.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok but im not sure if you have actually read any of the experiements done by Dean Radin. Are you assuming that its not thorough or do you know....not that I blame you for being skeptical I just need to know.

I haven't, but I've seen dozens of similarly flawed studies that have been debunked, both for psychic powers as well as other paranormal phenomenon. If he manages to distinguish himself from the others somehow, I'll read up on it. Until then, he's just another claimant of the paranormal...one among thousands, none of which have been confirmed via testing.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Exactly. Any good scientist will continue experiments when a result is found, to remove as much error as possible.

But I can also guarantee you that if you told James Randi you'd give him 100/1 odds that the experiments were valid and psychic powers existed, he still wouldn't take the bet. A quick perusal of anything he's ever written or investigated will back me up in that opinion quite thoroughly.

What so even James Randi doesnt completely rule out the possibility that it exists?


Originally posted by DigiMark007
I haven't, but I've seen dozens of similarly flawed studies that have been debunked, both for psychic powers as well as other paranormal phenomenon. If he manages to distinguish himself from the others somehow, I'll read up on it. Until then, he's just another claimant of the paranormal...one among millions, none of which have been confirmed via testing.

Fair enough...I think randi said something similar...LOL

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What so even James Randi doesnt completely rule out the possibility that it exists?

No one ever should. To rule it out completely it to be dogmatic about it. It doesn't leave the possibility of future evidence correcting current thoughts.

But he doesn't believe it exists. He's spent his life investigating and properly testing such claims, and has yet to confirm any of it. JREF actually offered a 1 million dollar prize for a number of years to anyone who could prove the existence of the paranormal in a controlled experimental setting, where they would first agree on a criteria for success with the claimant. Needless to say, they never had to part with the money, despite hundreds of attempts.

Fair enough anyway this is something I would like to look into but im going to have to understand differenr techniques of experimentation.

So what about the piano, eh?




Just kidding, James Randi states (as do Penn and Teller, as well as Richard Dawkins) that they would be extremely happy if they would discover a now called supernatural ability, it would revolutionize the whole world and likely find incredible applications in many, many fields, a thing that Randi is quite happy to spend a million bucks on. What they also want though is to bust sharlatans which make incredible amounts of money off of unsuspecting tools, without delivering anything in return. Which is what Randi did in the 80s with faith healers, psychic surgeons and other telekinetic or telephatic claiming people. And really, it's always a good thing to have the James Randi wager in the back of your mind when talking to a nut like Rosemary Altea ... the question "So, why don't you claim the money and be a millionaire" is usually met with "Well, err, you know...and *stutter*".

Originally posted by Bardock42





Just kidding, James Randi states (as do Penn and Teller, as well as Richard Dawkins) that they would be extremely happy if they would discover a now called supernatural ability, it would revolutionize the whole world and likely find incredible applications in many, many fields, a thing that Randi is quite happy to spend a million bucks on. What they also want though is to bust sharlatans which make incredible amounts of money off of unsuspecting tools, without delivering anything in return. Which is what Randi did in the 80s with faith healers, psychic surgeons and other telekinetic or telephatic claiming people. And really, it's always a good thing to have the James Randi wager in the back of your mind when talking to a nut like Rosemary Altea ... the question "So, why don't you claim the money and be a millionaire" is usually met with "Well, err, you know...and *stutter*".

Serioulsy though if I found out about psychic powers I probably wouldn't tell anyone. I can understand why people see it as an excuse but having certain abiltites could get you into a whole load of shit I don't think that excuse is as bad as it seems.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Serioulsy though if I found out about psychic powers I probably wouldn't tell anyone. I can understand why people see it as an excuse but having certain abiltites could get you into a whole load of shit I don't think that excuse is as bad as it seems.

Yeah, but that's obviously not the argument that already public "psychics" can use.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Just kidding, James Randi states (as do Penn and Teller, as well as Richard Dawkins) that they would be extremely happy if they would discover a now called supernatural ability, it would revolutionize the whole world and likely find incredible applications in many, many fields, a thing that Randi is quite happy to spend a million bucks on. What they also want though is to bust sharlatans which make incredible amounts of money off of unsuspecting tools, without delivering anything in return.

Exactly. It's goal isn't to crush belief, or anything silly like that, it's to debunk the many people who exploit the general populace's lack of knowledge about these things, who make money off of bad religion and even worse science.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, but that's obviously not the argument that already public "psychics" can use.

mmmm I dunno.....but don't get me wrong I completely understand where you are coming from.

edit: Yeah, yeah, ok.....meh.