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The other day I was happy to receive my newest edition of Wizard Magazine but quickly upset to see the newest incarnation of the JLA. Actually it wasn't the newest incarnation of the JLA itself that up set me but rather the fact that Freddy's back in the Captain Marvel Jr. blue outfit. I know it probably seems like some thing very minor to complain about but it just really annoys me.

See I really loved the Trials of Shazam story and thought it was one of the best done stories with transition of power by DC in some time. To me all of it was symbolic. Freddy had finally taken the lead and claimed the red costume and full mantel as the champion of the gods and earths mightiest mortal. While he kept enough of his own look to distinguish himself form Billy's Captain Marvel. It just feels to me like in putting Freddy back in the classic blue they're just busting his balls and him back to the 2nd class hero in Billy's shadow he use to be.

I guess it wouldn't bother me so much but DC is always doing this. They have some grand story about major change in the universe and rising/falling heroes and people taking their places stepping up and claiming the mantles of their former mentors. Only to just turn right around and go right back to the former status quo. God forbid they take a chance that actually lets time progress and natural change occur.

Its just more of why, as much as I want to like DC. Every time they do something new and interesting that actually shows new interest and stimulates the stories they just hit undo after a shot time. They always go right back to the status quo again and again.

Anyway I just wanted to open a thread to discuss this and see if anyone else agreed with me or what some other opinions on things like this are.

Originally posted by Entity
The other day I was happy to receive my newest edition of Wizard Magazine but quickly upset to see the newest incarnation of the JLA. Actually it wasn't the newest incarnation of the JLA itself that up set me but rather the fact that Freddy's back in the Captain Marvel Jr. blue outfit. I know it probably seems like some thing very minor to complain about but it just really annoys me.

See I really loved the Trials of Shazam story and thought it was one of the best done stories with transition of power by DC in some time. To me all of it was symbolic. Freddy had finally taken the lead and claimed the red costume and full mantel as the champion of the gods and earths mightiest mortal. While he kept enough of his own look to distinguish himself form Billy's Captain Marvel. It just feels to me like in putting Freddy back in the classic blue they're just busting his balls and him back to the 2nd class hero in Billy's shadow he use to be.

I guess it wouldn't bother me so much but DC is always doing this. They have some grand story about major change in the universe and rising/falling heroes and people taking their places stepping up and claiming the mantles of their former mentors. Only to just turn right around and go right back to the former status quo. God forbid they take a chance that actually lets time progress and natural change occur.

Its just more of why, as much as I want to like DC. Every time they do something new and interesting that actually shows new interest and stimulates the stories they just hit undo after a shot time. They always go right back to the status quo again and again.

Anyway I just wanted to open a thread to discuss this and see if anyone else agreed with me or what some other opinions on things like this are.

imo, the only true captain marvel is billy batson. the only superman is kal-el, the only batman is bruce wayne, the only cyclops is scott summers, the only silver surfer is norrin rad, the only thor, is, well, thor...

dc isn't afraid of change. quite the opposite. didio seems to like tinkering with DC more than he really should, imo...

I agree with Ent ... though it isn't just DC that's guilty of clinging to the status quo (don't get me started on OMD)

Marvel used to be terrible for it as well but have taken huge steps recently with the evolution of Thor, the death of Captain America and Tony Stark taking over SHIELD.

DC ... they tend to start out well, then pull back just as things need to take a final step.

Bart Allen - Impulse - Kid Flash - Flash - Dead (I like Wally, but still)

Even big stories like Identity Crisis only affect relatively minor characters over the long term.

Trinity is the perfect example of DC always coming back to the same formula:

"Use SM, BM & WW, ignore the other fan favourite characters for 90% of the story and we'll make $$$"

I agree with Raoul to a degree (Scott being Cyclops), but I also see where Entity comes from. I think that passing the mantle is something very difficult to conceive in comic books, specially after so many years with a very popular character. I don't feel change is impossible, I think that real comic deaths -like Marvel's Captain Marvel's- are viable to make things move. But until now the idea of passing the mantle has been impossible to apply.

I mean, were Batman to die, would people rather have Dick being Batman or to continue his career as Nightwing? I mean, the character Batman will always trace its roots to Bruce, even after mantle passing Batman's history when passed to other media would somehow pass through Bruce or change entirely. Do a Nightwing movie and you will be able to talk about Dick.

Wally filled in for Barry nicely for 20+ years.
Tim is great as Robin.
Cassandra is great as Batgirl.

But replacing Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman, or Captain Marvel, will always be temporary at best.

It's more noticeable with DC because Didio seems hellbent on getting everything back to the Silver Age status quo but Marvel is just as guilty. One More Day already being named as an example. Comics are just one big repetitive circle.

Almost all the originals are far better characters than their sidekicks or Kid-versions.

Just how it is.

Originally posted by Cavalier
Almost all the originals are far better characters than their sidekicks or Kid-versions.

Just how it is.

Originally posted by Juntai
Wally filled in for Barry nicely for 20+ years.
Tim is great as Robin.
Cassandra is great as Batgirl.

But replacing Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman, or Captain Marvel, will always be temporary at best.

yes

Originally posted by Cavalier
Almost all the originals are far better characters than their sidekicks or Kid-versions.

Just how it is.
They're only "better" because they've been developed more.

Every character has potential.

...except Cyclops

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
They're only "better" because they've been developed more.

Every character has potential.

...except Cyclops

cyclops > kyle.

we had this discussion last night...

Originally posted by Raoul
cyclops > kyle.

we had this discussion last night... I hate Kyle, but that is a flat out lie.

Originally posted by Red Hulk
I hate Kyle, but that is a flat out lie.

you weren't on msn. we discussed it at length.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
They're only "better" because they've been developed more.

Every character has potential.

...except Cyclops I realize that.

They're still better because of it though.

Originally posted by Cavalier
I realize that.

They're still better because of it though.
Yeah but it seems silly to say Captain Marvel should always be Billy Batson when Freddy has never been given a chance. I mean, I'm pretty sure the majority of this forum likes Wally over Barry and Jay, yes?

That kind of stagnation is why comic sales dip lower and lower. Why keep reading when these guys are essentially the same character they were 40 years ago?

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Yeah but it seems silly to say Captain Marvel should always be Billy Batson when Freddy has never been given a chance. I mean, I'm pretty sure the majority of this forum likes Wally over Barry and Jay, yes?

That kind of stagnation is why comic sales dip lower and lower. Why keep reading when these guys are essentially the same character they were 40 years ago? Meh. I said "Almost all the originals" because there are those side kicks out there that really come into their own as either take-overs for the original characters, or as completely separate entities. Freddy, IMO, should simply be something different than Captain Marvel or CM Jr, but I wouldn't be opposed to him filling in Billy's shoes.

Other examples would be Connor Hawke, Sand, Wally, etc. No doubt that there are the doubles out there that could be fleshed out a little, and deserve to. But I never want to see a permanent replacement for the big three, and I really dislike the idea of "replacement" in general. It worked for Wally, and it sells books, but I'd hate to see a new Captain America running around (for instance).

On a case by case basis, replacement or simply growing out the old sidekicks can be a great thing. On the other hand, I look at the Teen Titans and just think "... meh. JLA's better".

The Flash was viewed the same way as Superman and Batman at one point (i.e. Flash should always Barry). If Wally could work out, there's no reason Dick as Batman can't work save fanboy pressure. Grayson actually has the bonus of being a well liked character among fans unlike Wally who was a shit character until about 50 issues into his Flash run.

However, instead, he'll remain Nightwing aka Batman Lite until the point where he gets killed, Tim Drake assumes the Nightwing mantle, some new 13 year old becomes Robin and Bruce is still magically 30 years old and fighting the Joker for the trillionth time.

I'm just not seeing how that's a better alternative than just letting these characters fulfill the purpose for which they were created.

Timing of this thread=fail.

http://api.ning.com/files/1q*3otFQLoBr2gV6ReyutU75LXRjxS-N4dAyxqFP0GM_/fail.jpg

Originally posted by jumpmann
Timing of this thread=fail.

We won't know that for sure until maybe a year from now. If DS gets beaten, everything goes back to pretty much the status quo, and maybe Barry becomes the Flash agains, this thread will have been immensely justified.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
The Flash was viewed the same way as Superman and Batman at one point (i.e. Flash should always Barry). If Wally could work out, there's no reason Dick as Batman can't work save fanboy pressure. Grayson actually has the bonus of being a well liked character among fans unlike Wally who was a shit character until about 50 issues into his Flash run.

However, instead, he'll remain Nightwing aka Batman Lite until the point where he gets killed, Tim Drake assumes the Nightwing mantle, some new 13 year old becomes Robin and Bruce is still magically 30 years old and fighting the Joker for the trillionth time.

I'm just not seeing how that's a better alternative than just letting these characters fulfill the purpose for which they were created. I'd rather see Bruce retire (or die or lose his mind or something), have Nightwing get a costume change and maybe move back to Gotham permanently, but keep the name Nightwing, or come up with a brand new one. I'm not against sidekicks becoming something greater, I just don't want a Batman 2.0

Yes, it worked for Wally, but to be fair, Barry was actually the second Flash, and I just can't see it working the same way with characters that are so archetypal as Superman and Batman.

I'd rather characters were developed as their own characters, rather than the next in line for the Bat-throne (or whichever character you choose).

As far as Nightwing goes, I don't think it's costing anybody any harm to keep him in the niche he's filled out for himself right now. If it's really necessary for his character growth, kill off Bruce (or maim or whatever), but don't take Nightwing's character and turn it into Bruce's.

Originally posted by Cavalier
I'd rather see Bruce retire (or die or lose his mind or something), have Nightwing get a costume change and maybe move back to Gotham permanently, but keep the name Nightwing, or come up with a brand new one. I'm not against sidekicks becoming something greater, I just don't want a Batman 2.0

Yes, it worked for Wally, but to be fair, Barry was actually the second Flash, and I just can't see it working the same way with characters that are so archetypal as Superman and Batman.

I'd rather characters were developed as their own characters, rather than the next in line for the Bat-throne (or whichever character you choose).

As far as Nightwing goes, I don't think it's costing anybody any harm to keep him in the niche he's filled out for himself right now. If it's really necessary for his character growth, kill off Bruce (or maim or whatever), but don't take Nightwing's character and turn it into Bruce's.
From a business point of view, DC must always publish a book titled Batman. The name of Batman is more important to their bottom line than the identity of the person behind the mask. I've got no problem with Dick filling the "Batman" role while maintaining his Nightwing identity but it isn't feasible.

From a story point of view, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, etc. These are symbols and ideas in addition to being characters. The line in RIP where Bruce says "Batman and Robin will never die" reinforces that. Personally, I wouldn't look as Dick as Batman 2.0 anymore than I look at Kyle as Green Lantern 2.0 (or rather 5.0). It's just the logical progression of the universe they've given us. The keyword there is progression. There must be progression in these books or else, why even bother reading?

I talk about Wally in this topic because he's the one big success story of superhero sidekicks but even he's about to be pushed aside so Barry can return. At this point, we've gone beyond the basic archetypes. This in addition to Hal being back, Oliver Queen being back, and even Supergirl kicking Superboy to the wayside. I know about the legal issues there but they could have just changed his name.

As far as Nightwing is concerned, he's probably in the worst situation possible for a superhero. Not the main guy but also not the sidekick. He literally serves no purpose which is why Didio thought it was ok to kill him during the last Crisis if not for Geoff Johns intervention. You gotta wonder how long Wally and Kyle are going to stick around as Flash and Green Lantern B.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
From a business point of view, DC must always publish a book titled Batman. The name of Batman is more important to their bottom line than the identity of the person behind the mask. I've got no problem with Dick filling the "Batman" role while maintaining his Nightwing identity but it isn't feasible.

From a story point of view, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, etc. These are symbols and ideas in addition to being characters. The line in RIP where Bruce says "Batman and Robin will never die" reinforces that. Personally, I wouldn't look as Dick as Batman 2.0 anymore than I look at Kyle as Green Lantern 2.0 (or rather 5.0). It's just the logical progression of the universe they've given us. The keyword there is progression. There must be progression in these books or else, why even bother reading?

I talk about Wally in this topic because he's the one big success story of superhero sidekicks but even he's about to be pushed aside so Barry can return. At this point, we've gone beyond the basic archetypes. This in addition to Hal being back, Oliver Queen being back, and even Supergirl kicking Superboy to the wayside. I know about the legal issues there but they could have just changed his name.

As far as Nightwing is concerned, he's probably in the worst situation possible for a superhero. Not the main guy but also not the sidekick. He literally serves no purpose which is why Didio thought it was ok to kill him during the last Crisis if not for Geoff Johns intervention. You gotta wonder how long Wally and Kyle are going to stick around as Flash and Green Lantern B. Yeah, I realize it makes business sense to pump out Flash titles, and was gonna add that caveat last time. It's also business sense, however, to keep around Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent just for security purposes (see: OMD... exact same reasoning). Not that I agree with this, but it is how it is.

Maybe I only speak for myself, but I'd view Nightwing becoming Batman almost as badly as I'd view anybody becoming Captain America. He was an ideal too, and yet everything's comfortable with him being dead. "Batman and Robin will never die"... meh. Again, perhaps it's just me, but I view Bruce Wayne and Batman as one, inseperable entity. If one dies, so does the other. Nightwing taking over would not be Batman living on, it would be Gotham's new caped crusader, which would be fine, and I'd be happy with it, but I wouldn't think of it as Batman. "Batman and Robin will never die" sounds nice in writing, but I'd hate to see a vs. forum thread where people have to specify which Batman they mean.

As for archetypes, I view Superman and Batman as far more archetypal than Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, and so on. Perhaps that's why I don't care about GL 5.0... or I just don't care about GL's period. srug

Lulz... at least Wally got 20 years. Quasar's already back. Wendell, that is.

Meh. Again, if Batman needs to be killed off for Nightwing to be important, ok, but keep him as Nightwing, not the character that will fill Batman's shoes. Toss the Bat-shoes out, insert Dick's shoes.

I agree with both Scoobless and Cavalier and OMD was mostly all Quesada's bs. He's the one that had to live in nostalgia and I think we can agree the vast majority hate it. But, before that Spidey was actually one of the better ones about change for many years. I mean his girlfriend died in his arms in part because of his very trying to save her, he got married, his friends around him died, he went through college and jobs. Even joined the Avengers, told the world who he was and evolved his powerset and origins almost completely in a sense. It was all well done and daring IMO. Until Quesada came along and bitchslaped him back to the late 70's.

As for Batman, I couldn't agree more that no one wants to see another person as the Bat. At least not for some time after Bruce has passed but the idea of Dick taking his place and still staying his own man as Nightwing could really work. IMO

I mean yea its true that all comic companies use to be just as bad about it but most have changed and started pushing the bar farther and farther in the right direction with it. IMO And Marvel is definitely one of them with all the things they've been doing lately. The death of Capt and replacement of Bucky as the new Capt is excellent to me. Then you also have SW going insane and killing Avengers and changing the whole world with real implications to the universe depowering all the mutants. And now Daredevil's in Jail with his identity known and all heroes forced to register or be outlaws. Just lots of other things that might not really be considered huge prove of big change but still much better steps in that direction than DC's been show willing to take over the years and at least for longer periods of time than DC.

I mean I also like Bart continuing the Flash legacy but in itself was also just a continued pattern with DC as Flashes go. And even then they just couldn't stick with Bart long enough to give him a real chance as Flash. They just had to rush back to Wally and now possibly back to Barry even.

I also really always wanted to see Connor eventually take on the mantle and become Superman. Not the same Superman by far but that's a huge part of the appeal to me. Seeing what its like for this different person with a different personality and perspective take on a well known place in an old style world and see how it changes things. It's like when Supes when Blue and because pure energy. I loved it, hell I even started to drool when he even split into 2 beings that neither were a copy but rather literally both the same person. Of course I always knew that despite my best hope they would go right back to the way things were just like DC always does.

I guess the Freddy thing really gets to me because it always goes on with DC and just for a while there after the death of Shazam and Billy becoming Marvel and Trials being so very well done that maybe things had finally changed and DC had actually done something new and it worked. I mean I really really think Trials worked incredibly well for Freddy taking over for Billy. But when I saw that blue on the cover of Wizard and read inside that the artist actually planned on going with the Red from Trials until DC specifically requested it I just knew its only the first step to nothing changing again like always. I'm sure its also in part because it'd be so scary to actually have a different Superman in the Justice League.

With DC its just very true, The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Mark my words. In 5 years, Final Crisis and Infinite Crisis won't even matter. All will be as it was.

See, I honestly think if Dick were given a 20 year run as Batman, he'd be viewed extremely favorably. I think it would work as well or even better than Wally as Flash.

Personally I just hate the idea that says, "Bruce and Clark should be Batman and Superman until the end of time! Case closed!" That fear of change just rubs me the wrong way.

Originally posted by Cavalier
Meh. Again, if Batman needs to be killed off for Nightwing to be important, ok, but keep him as Nightwing, not the character that will fill Batman's shoes. Toss the Bat-shoes out, insert Dick's shoes.
But we already know this is impossible. The only other choice would be to keep Bruce and Dick around in their current roles.

Dan Didio once said, and this is actually something I agree with him on, there's just not enough room for all these guys.

You've got Bruce, Dick and Jason who all essentially have the same role.

There's going to be 5 Flashes running around.

4 earth based Green Lanterns.

3 Green Arrows.

Come on. Some of these guys have got to go.

Originally posted by Entity
Mark my words. In 5 years, Final Crisis and Infinite Crisis won't even matter. All will be as it was.
That's why I keep asking why even bother? It's sad as hell that we all know this is going to be the case.

I hope Prime takes the Superman mantle. biscuits

the way i see it is this.

i'm 25 now, and i'm at the stage where i'm old enough to be able to have access to and read whatever comics i like. comics are as good as they've ever been, its becoming one of the better times to be a reader of alot of characters since they've started.

we had (up until recently) whedon on x-men. we have johns on action and GL. we have morrison on batman. leaders in their field are finally coming around to writing about the characters i want to read about.

if johns turned around tomorrow and said he was doing away with clark and bringing back kon-el, i'd think it was an awful waste that we weren't going to get to see just how far johns could go writing kal-el.

now, i do like kon-el. i loved him in teen titans, and i loved most of that series. but kon-el as superman written by johns? sorry, but no, not interested. i read comics because i want to read about the characters I like. I like kon-el as superboy. i like kal-el as superman.

superman is as much kal-el as he is superman, imo. i don't read the comics for the S shield, i read the comics to see how how kal-el sees the world around him. i read them to see the dynamic between him and bruce. i read them (or did up until recently) for the pa kent scenes. the ups and downs of marriage to lois. the rarely explored tension between him and diana. the rivalry with darkseid and brainiac and the terror of doomsday. the big suporting cast (kon-el won't get an issue narrated almost entirely by perry white, will he?) when i have the money, i buy my superman comics for those reasons. not because of the S shield. if kon-el becomes superman, i'm not going to get those things from my superman comics.

could kon-el do superman's job? sure, i'd never deny that. but would him being superman attract me to the comic as much as it being clark? not for me...

the same goes for batman. dick will never have that rivalry with the joker. he'll never have that up and down thing with selina (hopefully they've resolved it for the thousandth time), and the many other things that are exclusive to bruce. would dick be a good batman? or tim? sure, but would the comics have the same feel? not for me...

and hal? johns did a very good job, imo, of showing that it didn't have to be just hal or kyle, that both men could exist and bring their own qualities to the stories.

the same goes for wally (the will they wont they with linda and the zoom arc were gold, imo), cyclops, silver surfer, thor, hank pym, red tornado, wonder woman, psylocke, captain america (as good as bucky has been) etc...

can the new versions have good, worthwhile arcs? sure. would i have the same feeling watching kon-el battle brainiac as i do when clark does it? no. but that leads to something else. do these young replacements go up against the same rogues, or do they get a whole new catalogue? with dick as batman, do we lose joker and harley? clayface? riddler? with kon as superman do we lose darkseid? brainiac? LUTHOR? even with kon's history, it just wouldn't be the same, imo...

i know people don't agree, and that's fine, tis just how i feel...

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
See, I honestly think if Dick were given a 20 year run as Batman, he'd be viewed extremely favorably. I think it would work as well or even better than Wally as Flash.

Personally I just hate the idea that says, "Bruce and Clark should be Batman and Superman until the end of time! Case closed!" That fear of change just rubs me the wrong way.


But we already know this is impossible. The only other choice would be to keep Bruce and Dick around in their current roles.

Dan Didio once said, and this is actually something I agree with him on, there's just not enough room for all these guys.

You've got Bruce, Dick and Jason who all essentially have the same role.

There's going to be 5 Flashes running around.

4 earth based Green Lanterns.

3 Green Arrows.

Come on. Some of these guys have got to go.

Totally agree with you, except I don't see the Arrow family as an example of this. Where we see this obvious legacy element with Bruce and Dick, the arrows are like more of a liberal family unit. There is an almost expected sense of succession with Robin becoming Batman (Dick or otherwise) and although the father and son element has been played out in the GA series with both Roy and Connor, recent years have played off the idea of them being one big happy family with Black Canary as the mother. The only notable exception being Roy becoming Red Arrow for the JLA.

Originally posted by Raoul
can the new versions have good, worthwhile arcs? sure. would i have the same feeling watching kon-el battle brainiac as i do when clark does it? no. but that leads to something else. do these young replacements go up against the same rogues, or do they get a whole new catalogue? with dick as batman, do we lose joker and harley? clayface? riddler? with kon as superman do we lose darkseid? brainiac? LUTHOR? even with kon's history, it just wouldn't be the same, imo...

No, ideally they would refresh the rogues gallery with new villains. Wally isn't fighting Eobard Thawne, he's fighting Hunter Zolomon.

Wally is basically a step by step direction on how this should be done.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
No, ideally they would refresh the rogues gallery with new villains. Wally isn't fighting Eobard Thawne, he's fighting Hunter Zolomon.

Wally is basically a step by step direction on how this should be done.

wally isn't clark, though.

as much as i love the guy, i don't think you can assume that it would work as well with kon as it did with wally...

Originally posted by Raoul
wally isn't clark, though.

as much as i love the guy, i don't think you can assume that it would work as well with kon as it did with wally...
Why not?

The only reason given is that you want to keep Kal-El stories.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Why not?

The only reason given is that you want to keep Kal-El stories.

and what's wrong with that?

i want to read about kal-el. i want to see superman fight parasite, and metallo, and luthor, and darkseid.

why is that so wrong?

Originally posted by Raoul
and what's wrong with that?

i want to read about kal-el. i want to see superman fight parasite, and metallo, and luthor, and darkseid.

why is that so wrong?
Never said it was wrong. Just said it's easy to see why people tend to get bored with this hobby.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Never said it was wrong. Just said it's easy to see why people tend to get bored with this hobby.

i don't get bored... good writers tell good stories, and as long as they continue to do so, i see no reason to change anything...

Dick Grayson won't be Batman the same way Superboy won't be Superman. They would be just the guys wearing those person's suits, which is why I mostly never agree with characters being replaced. It's not the suits that define the person, it's those filling it.

Originally posted by Raoul
i don't get bored... good writers tell good stories, and as long as they continue to do so, i see no reason to change anything...
Whatever but saying it can't work just because you don't want it to is a bit silly, yes?

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Whatever but saying it can't work just because you don't want it to is a bit silly, yes?

i'm not saying it can't work. i'm saying that for me personally, i would be less inclined to buy/read the comics, as i wouldn't be as interested as before...

Originally posted by Raoul
i'm not saying it can't work. I'm saying that for me personally, i would be less inclined to buy/read the comics, as i wouldn't be as interested as before... How do you really know thou if you are so afraid of change that your refusing to even give it a chance. I mean its been done and worked very well. It's also been done and been very bad. But to just say without even trying that your absolutely not going to like it or continue reading the series is going a little far don'tcha think.

I mean you've even said yourself that you like Connor and Dick and some of these other characters. So don't they at least deserve the chance to take the reigns and see how it works out with them after some time to get a fair shot?

I mean its just boring to keep reading the same story over and over and no matter how many new ways you come up with Braniac to attack Kal-El it just eventually always becomes the same story. But letting characters come and go and die with honor as they lived instead of just milking them over and over until your just getting nothing but the exact same recycled stories that have been told a hundred times already only in very slightly different ways to pass it off as new or some so lazy its not even any different at all.

The whole point of putting someone new in the roles is just that. Getting a new perspective other than the same one we've all ready 50 thousand times in various serious and arcs. And what I love about it is seeing how the new characters deal with being the new Flash or Superman or Green Lantern or avenger or Gotham and head of the Batfamily. And seeing how they get passed all the cliche of them just being a replacement and really come into their own as Wally did as Flash and as Kyle had as GL before rebirth.

Just seems wrong to me to go ahead and say you won't like it and start knocking something you've already said you wouldn't even give a chance regardless of as good as it could be.

I think that as long as the characters are replaced with someone that you actually care about, it could work. I mean, for me Bucky taking Steve's mantle is only natural because Bucky always worked as an integral part of Captain America's mythos. Conner is to me, more of a side part of Kal's history, it would never work as Superman as it has never worked as a central part of his universe.

I don't feel this is the case with Batman: Bruce has Dick around, who is a core part of his history. He is also, a regular human and is only natural that he will get old and retire eventually. Superman is a kryptonian, he doesn't need to die. If there is one hero that could live forever, its Supes.

I think essentially the problem boils down to the business nature of comic books

in general, every drama has a beginning, a middle, and an end. there is always progression. people age, people die.

In comics, there is no end. There is just a beginning and a middle. For there to be an end, a character would have to die or cease to exist...meaning the comic company would lose a title.

So what we end up with is a continuing reinvention to try to keep the middle part fresh. But that's an almost impossible task to maintain for a long period. Sooner or later, these revamps will introduce plot holes, discontinuities, and other issues. Also, sooner or later, pretty much every idea and their variation will have been exhausted.

Our heroes are in a neverending hamster wheel where they're put in the same scenarios (with minor differences) over and over...until the day the audience loses complete interest...only then will our heroes be given their rightful end...and a new hero can take their place.

Originally posted by Entity
The other day I was happy to receive my newest edition of Wizard Magazine but quickly upset to see the newest incarnation of the JLA. Actually it wasn't the newest incarnation of the JLA itself that up set me but rather the fact that Freddy's back in the Captain Marvel Jr. blue outfit. I know it probably seems like some thing very minor to complain about but it just really annoys me.

See I really loved the Trials of Shazam story and thought it was one of the best done stories with transition of power by DC in some time. To me all of it was symbolic. Freddy had finally taken the lead and claimed the red costume and full mantel as the champion of the gods and earths mightiest mortal. While he kept enough of his own look to distinguish himself form Billy's Captain Marvel. It just feels to me like in putting Freddy back in the classic blue they're just busting his balls and him back to the 2nd class hero in Billy's shadow he use to be.

I guess it wouldn't bother me so much but DC is always doing this. They have some grand story about major change in the universe and rising/falling heroes and people taking their places stepping up and claiming the mantles of their former mentors. Only to just turn right around and go right back to the former status quo. God forbid they take a chance that actually lets time progress and natural change occur.

Its just more of why, as much as I want to like DC. Every time they do something new and interesting that actually shows new interest and stimulates the stories they just hit undo after a shot time. They always go right back to the status quo again and again.

Anyway I just wanted to open a thread to discuss this and see if anyone else agreed with me or what some other opinions on things like this are.

Didio in an interview said that the Marvel family won't be getting the spotlight like Superman or Batman. So for me this is Didio's Waterloo with the CM fans.

Originally posted by Entity
How do you really know thou if you are so afraid of change that your refusing to even give it a chance. I mean its been done and worked very well. It's also been done and been very bad. But to just say without even trying that your absolutely not going to like it or continue reading the series is going a little far don'tcha think.

i'm not afraid of change. i prefer wally to barry and jay. i like hal jordan, who, as we all know, was the second green lantern, not the first.



so what am i supposed to do, then? i want to read about kal-el. i have to go years and hope they bring him back? this isn't about Superman. this is about, as philosophia said, the character who puts on the mask. i prefer kal-el to kon-el. i, like any other comic fan, want to read about the characters i like.

kon-el could take the reigns. he could have brilliant stories. he could be a great superman. i'm not arguing any of that. what i'm saying is that i'm going to be left wondering whether they'll ever bring kal-el back, as he's the character i'm interested in.



boring for you, maybe. not for everyone.

john's brainiac arc was widely seen as a brilliant superman story.



and yet you seem to have made the blanket statement that change for the sake of change is a good thing, which is not nearly true, imo. the kal-els, the bruce waynes, they havent stayed in their roles this long by pure fluke. they're there because they have staying power. because people want to read about them.

i'm not knocking anything. i'm sure kon-el could be written as a great superman. but he's not the superman i want to read about. i want to read about kal-el. i want to read about lois and darkseid and luthor and metallo and parasite. the same way when i read batman that i want to read about the joker and harley quinn and so on and so on... i want to read about kal-el more than kon-el the way i want to read about scott summers more than cable, or hank pym more than whatever new guy says he wants to be ant-man.

i like kal-el as superman. i like scott summers as cyclops. the same way val likes kyle rayner, or badabing likes bruce wayne, or darthgoober likes norrin radd, or battlehammer likes logan.

it's not the title that matters, it's the character behind it. you want kon-el to be superman? go ahead, but i still want to read a kal-el comic every month...

Originally posted by Raoul
john's brainiac arc was widely seen as a brilliant superman story.

http://i36.tinypic.com/2v81fk4.jpg

And nobody is advocating change for the sake of change but instead simple progression.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
http://i36.tinypic.com/2v81fk4.jpg

hey, we can't all hate everything, you know...

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
And nobody is advocating change for the sake of change but instead simple progression.

are you sure that's all it is?

Originally posted by Raoul
hey, we can't all hate everything, you know...

*shrug* Just seemed like another Braniac story to me. Wasn't bad but nothing amazing either.

Originally posted by Raoul
are you sure that's all it is?
Hey, you wouldn't be implying anything here would you?

Originally posted by Raoul
i'm not afraid of change. i prefer wally to barry and jay. i like hal jordan, who, as we all know, was the second green lantern, not the first.

But aren't those the characters you grew up reading about? Just as Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, and Diana were. I believe we are the same age and I know those are all the same characters I grew up reading about. Seems like your trying to defend that your not afraid of change with events that were never really changes at all for you. It was common place by the time you came along. Still those changes worked for a reason. Just as Kyle worked before they just pushed him into the background with Guy and John and went right back to Hal.

Originally posted by Raoul
so what am i supposed to do, then? i want to read about kal-el. i have to go years and hope they bring him back? this isn't about Superman. this is about, as philosophia said, the character who puts on the mask. i prefer kal-el to kon-el. i, like any other comic fan, want to read about the characters i like.

You want to read about Kal-El and Bruce fine. You've already got 60 years worth of material to choose from as well as the new All Star series. To me That's what things like All Star and Ultimate are for, to re-imagine and relive the classic heroes all over again. Or for the first time if you weren't there before. There's no need to have that and still over kill the mainstream timeline series by refusing to let go of the past and give new characters a chance to shine.

Still if it doesn't work fine, by all means, go back to the originals but at least give the new guys their fair shot. And That's something I am just completely convinced that DC just almost never does. Hell allot of times even when they do and it does work they still refuse to let it go. Kyle worked as GL, hell he's what got me and allot of my friends into GL. Wally worded as flash, so well infact to many people he IS the Flash and the only flash. Hell Wally worked better than Barry ever did as much as I like Barry. Still they couldn't give Bart the same shot.

Originally posted by Raoul
kon-el could take the reigns. he could have brilliant stories. he could be a great superman. i'm not arguing any of that. what i'm saying is that i'm going to be left wondering whether they'll ever bring kal-el back, as he's the character i'm interested in. Then why wouldn't you be willing to at least stay on long enough to see if he surprised you. And if you really must have Clark Kent and only Clark Kent then go to any of the last thousand stories they've already told about him. Or just stick with something new like All Star while Connor just gets his fair chance to rise.


Originally posted by Raoul
and yet you seem to have made the blanket statement that change for the sake of change is a good thing, which is not nearly true, imo. the kal-els, the bruce waynes, they havent stayed in their roles this long by pure fluke. they're there because they have staying power. because people want to read about them.

I feel anything but that way about change. While I do enjoy change, its because I believe the world needs it. Everything does, its part of life and evolution. If things aren't allowed to change they always eventually grow old and stale and die. That being said change for only the mere sake of change is even worse. Heroes current volume 3 "Villains" has done that all season and only changed things and had plot twist and sudden deaths for just that purpose. To do it. That's the only reason, and the whole season has more or less summed up to nothing but pure crap. The same is true when things are changed for no other reason and without consideration in comics.

So no I don't try and claim that change for mere change is good but I do believe change is good in general whenever its handled correctly. Things need to be allowed to grow or they wither and die.

Originally posted by Raoul
i'm not knocking anything. i'm sure kon-el could be written as a great superman. but he's not the superman i want to read about. i want to read about kal-el. i want to read about lois and darkseid and luthor and metallo and parasite. the same way when i read batman that i want to read about the joker and harley quinn and so on and so on... i want to read about kal-el more than kon-el the way i want to read about scott summers more than cable, or hank pym more than whatever new guy says he wants to be ant-man.

i like kal-el as superman. i like scott summers as cyclops. the same way val likes kyle rayner, or badabing likes bruce wayne, or darthgoober likes norrin radd, or battlehammer likes logan.

it's not the title that matters, it's the character behind it. you want kon-el to be superman? go ahead, but i still want to read a kal-el comic every month...

But can you really be absolutely sure without even trying that no matter what you can't be just as happy or possibly even happier with the new people becoming the big shots, if it were written by someone that really new what they were doing and really willing to give them some true personal and original spotlight to see how good they could really be?

The old characters have been around for decades and guess what they're still there if it doesn't work or you just wanna go back and revisit them. So whats the real harm in just seeing how things go with some fresh new blood and with it some brand new stories and rivalries?

Like I've said if its really so unthinkable to have someone else as the head of the Batfamily or the man of steel or earth's mightiest mortal then go to All Star and see it all done with the same people as before. That's what its there for. I just don't see why time has to be forced to relay forever in a constant circle while everything becomes completely predictable and overdone when it can all become new fresh and surprising.

Originally posted by Entity
But aren't those the characters you grew up reading about? Just as Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, and Diana were. I believe we are the same age and I know those area all the same characters I grew up reading about. Seems like your trying to defend that your not afraid of change with events that were never really changes at all for you. It was common place by the time you came along. Still those changes worked for a reason. Just as Kyle worked before they just pushed him into the background with Guy and John and went right back to Hal.



You want to read about Kal-El and Bruce fine. You've already got 60 years worth of material to choose from as well as the new All Star series. To me That's what things like All Star and Ultimate are for, to re-imagine and relive the classic heroes all over again. Or for the first time if you weren't there before. There's no need to have that and still over kill the mainstream timeline series by refusing to let go of the past and give new characters a change to shine.

Still if it doesn't work fine, by all means, go back to the originals but at least give the new guys their fair shot. And That's something I am just completely convinced that DC just almost never does. Hell allot of times even when they do and it does work they still refuse to let it go. Kyle worked as GL, hell he's what got me and allot of my friends into GL. Wally worded as flash, so well infact to many people he IS the Flash and the only flash. Hell Wally worked better than Barry ever did as much as I like Barry. Still they couldn't give Bart the same shot.

Then why wouldn't you be willing to at least stay on long enough to see if he surprised you. And if you really must have Clark Kent and only Clark Kent then go to any of the last thousand stories they've already told about him. Or just stick with something new like All Star while Connor just gets his fair chance to rise.




I fell anything but that way about change. While I do enjoy change, its because I believe the world needs it. Everything does, its part of life and evolution. If things aren't allowed to change they always eventually grow old and stale and die. That being said change for only the mere sake of change is even worse. Heroes current volume 3 "Villains" has done that all season and only changed things and had plot twist and sudden deaths for just that purpose. To do it. That's the only reason, and the whole season has more or less summed up to nothing but pure crap. The same is true when things are changed for no other reason and without consideration in comics.

So no I don't try and claim that change for mere change is good but I do believe change is good in general whenever its handled correctly. Things need to be allowed to grow or they wither and die.



But can you really be absolutely sure without even trying that no matter what you can't be just as happy or possibly even happier with the new people becoming the big shots, if it were written by someone that really new what they were doing and really willing to give them some true personal and original spotlight to see how good they could really be?

The old characters have been around for decades and guess what they're still there if it doesn't work or you just wanna go back and revisit them. So whats the real harm in just seeing how things go with some fresh new blood and with it some brand new stories and rivalries?

Like I've said if its really so unthinkable to have someone else as the head of the Batfamily or the man of steel or earth's mightiest mortal then go to All Star and see it all done with the same people as before. That's what its there for. I just don't see why time has to be forced to relay forever in a constant circle while everything becomes completely predictable and overdone when it can all become new fresh and surprising.

i'm sorry, but i'm going to be brief:

see, i don't find them stale. at all. even i, with my not as good as morrison or johns brain, can think of new stories for those same characters, that would develop them in new ways. and if i can, so can they.

and honestly? i guarantee that half the kon-el as superman stories will just be recycled kal-el ones, as is the nature of the business, so i really don't see how it would be such a radical shift...

no offence, but im really getting the impression that you're just saying you don't like clark, so you want him replaced by someone, who in your eyes is younger and cooler. the same with hal and kyle.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
http://i36.tinypic.com/2v81fk4.jpg
Inappropriate usage of this pic.

Johns' Brainiac arc is widely considered one of the best stories of the year.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Inappropriate usage of this pic.

Johns' Brainiac arc is widely considered one of the best stories of the year.

So was WWH

haw-som

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
So was WWH

haw-som
Snapz!

No one liked World War Hulk. Wasn't even released this year.

Inappropriate use of the word "snapz".

Originally posted by jumpmann
No one liked World War Hulk. Wasn't even released this year.

Inappropriate use of the word "snapz".

Idiot.

Appropriate use of the word "idiot"

I get what Pr is talking about.

For him, its the characters that are critical rather than the plotlines. I can see where he's coming from.

For example, I never liked transformers after Optimus Prime died. While it was a natural progression, I (and prob many other fans) did not feel the same connection with the replacement.

Its the characters that give you the connection to the story. A great plot is much weaker if you have no connection with the characters. Whereas Pr might enjoy reading about the XMen just playing a game of basketball if it showcases interesting character interaction and development.

It takes years to build up a character...I really can't think of any new characters over the past decade that have attracted a strong following. Spawn was the one character that broke the mold but it was an exception rather than a rule.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I get what Pr is talking about.

For him, its the characters that are critical rather than the plotlines. I can see where he's coming from.

For example, I never liked transformers after Optimus Prime died. While it was a natural progression, I (and prob many other fans) did not feel the same connection with the replacement.

Its the characters that give you the connection to the story. A great plot is much weaker if you have no connection with the characters. Whereas Pr might enjoy reading about the XMen just playing a game of basketball if it showcases interesting character interaction and development.

It takes years to build up a character...I really can't think of any new characters over the past decade that have attracted a strong following. Spawn was the one character that broke the mold but it was an exception rather than a rule.

How many years has Kon-el been around now? Him stepping up to the title Superman is hardly comparable to Superman being replaced by a completely new character.

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
How many years has Kon-el been around now? Him stepping up to the title Superman is hardly comparable to Superman being replaced by a completely new character. but it doesn't matter though

Kon-el will never be Kal-el, just like Rodimus will never be Optimus

You're prob gonna say "so what?"

well, I liked transformers because I liked Optimus Prime. Without him, I didn't really care about the transformers universe.

Im not saying everyone or most view comics like this, but a sizable population certainly does, hence companies not willing to do anything drastic to their big icons.

and guys like Superman and Batman and Hulk and Spiderman have been with us for a reason. It wasn't an accident or luck. Those characters connected with their audience and their audience demanded to see more of those characters.

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
Idiot.

Appropriate use of the word "idiot"
3/3 in fails.

Originally posted by jumpmann
No one liked World War Hulk. ".

Really

Originally posted by jumpmann
3/3 in fails.

No one liked WWH huh?

Take a look around the forum, talk to a couple of people.

I'm all for the natural progression of comics,so long as it is natural progression.

There's also something to be said for demographics, and how that plays into this supposed "fear."

Comics have very loyal, and sometimes life-long, fans. But don't fool yourselves. We're the minority. The target group is 13-20 year old males, most of whom give it up at or around the latter age. More loyal fans are also notoriously finicky. To the brass at Marvel/DC, this means we're largely ignored (except when a gigantic fuss is raised) because pleasing even a majority just isn't worth the hassle, if it's possible at all.

To that end, there's a lot to be said for doing what has been proven to work before (i.e. it sells) when you have such a high turnover rate in subscribers, where every 5-10 years you're looking at attracting a brand new audience.

The people keeping the companies in business don't know that PC Superman isn't the current Superman. Or that there's been a billion Flashes, unless they specifically follow Flash (and maybe not even then). They're just thrilled to see the Blue and Red spandex in action, or thrilled to see multiple Flashes in action. Other examples easilly apply here as well.

So yes, it's fear. But not fear of change for teh sake of itself. Plenty of writers, editors, etc. would embrace change. But it's strictly business.

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
No one liked WWH huh?


But thats "This" forum That does'nt necessary mean everyone has the same opinion

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
Idiot.

Appropriate use of the word "idiot"

What digi said pretty much summed it up the way i feel as well.

We're like a miniority really, The only people they care about is and we've all been there ourselves the 11-18 range who will buy anything they put out with no complaint. We where all in that same boat also at one point.

The good thing is in the past decade everythings been brought out in graphic novels and hardcovers now so you can pick and mix so much easier now for your collection instead of buying a series weekly and just hoping for the best that will be a good story at the end of the arc like a recent example for me = Batman RIP lol.

Like now instead of when i was a kid weekly saving and getting my x-men issues and collecting events like the Phalanax, days of future past, AOA, Onslaught etc.

I can get them without caring about comic contiunity anymore, Plus reviews on whether it's good or not before i even buy it. Like the first Ultimate books 1 and 2 old characters and an idea in a new universe.

i don't even collect any other ultimate universe books, i found out about on the net, heard all the praise and got my copies and loved them.
The internet as well is good and getting better all the time to read comics on and keep digital comics.

Then read up on here about how bad Ulitmates 3 was and seen the scans on the net for myself so will avoid it at all costs.

It's like if they did change batman, superman and people didn't like it they will have plenty of old stories and other titles to collect and read and they can keep track on the net about the new arcs and save there money. It doesn't hamper your enjoyment as a comic fan now thankfully like i missed whedon's xmen run but have bought them on.

Originally posted by GGS
What digi said pretty much summed it up the way i feel as well.

We're like a miniority really, The only people they care about is and we've all been there ourselves the 11-18 range who will buy anything they put out with no complaint. We where all in that same boat also at one point.

The good thing is in the past decade everythings been brought out in graphic novels and hardcovers now so you can pick and mix so much easier now for your collection instead of buying a series weekly and just hoping for the best that will be a good story at the end of the arc like a recent example for me = Batman RIP lol.

Like now instead of when i was a kid weekly saving and getting my x-men issues and collecting events like the Phalanax, days of future past, AOA, Onslaught etc.

I can get them without caring about comic contiunity anymore, Plus reviews on whether it's good or not before i even buy it. Like the first Ultimate books 1 and 2 old characters and an idea in a new universe.

i don't even collect any other ultimate universe books, i found out about on the net, heard all the praise and got my copies and loved them.
The internet as well is good and getting better all the time to read comics on and keep digital comics.

Then read up on here about how bad Ulitmates 3 was and seen the scans on the net for myself so will avoid it at all costs.

It's like if they did change batman, superman and people didn't like it they will have plenty of old stories and other titles to collect and read and they can keep track on the net about the new arcs and save there money. It doesn't hamper your enjoyment as a comic fan now thankfully like i missed whedon's xmen run but have bought them on. you sound like a big geek

Originally posted by Starscream M
you sound like a big geek I love that you accuse someone of being a geek considering this is a comic book forum. ermm


I consider myself a dork personally but, potato patato.

Originally posted by Raoul
no offence, but im really getting the impression that you're just saying you don't like clark, so you want him replaced by someone, who in your eyes is younger and cooler. the same with hal and kyle.

I love how you try and just resort back to the disagreements we have of characterization and use my own well know personal distaste for a character to say this isn't about what I opened the thread for.

If you read the opening post I never even made mention of Kon El to start with. It was about Freddy being basically knocked back to Captain Marvel Jr after doing such a good job in Trials of becoming the new Mightiest Mortal and taking the lead under the name Shazam.

Which bring to question, how's he going to tell the people he's helping his name?
But I digress.

True I did make mention of the idea of Connor eventually replacing Clark but only as part of my examples of things in the DC universe needing to evolve, change and grow. I also made mention of Dick becoming Bruce and I absolutely love Bruce. As I do Wally and I am fine with Diana as WW but I thing they could all use change. Don't just milk them dry until you have to realise they've been old and stale for years when we can read new and different stories about how things effect different characters in that position differently and how they have completely different issues to face.

If Connor ever did replace Clark then it wouldn't be about him dealing with being the last of his kind and the only one on Earth with that power anymore but dealing with things like the fact that he's the direct descendant of Earth's greatest hero and his worst enemy. And trying to be the lead in the world of Superheroes and proving he's more that just a replacement for the original as well as dealing with his darker side that Luther passed on to him. As Dick's wouldn't constantly be about his complete determination and dedication to "The Mission" but his trying to prove to the world he's not Batman and he's his own man and that you don't have to be so dark and secluded to help save a city so corrupt. Bruce's dark loner style isn't the only way that can work. While still trying to honor the memory of the man who was The Dark Knight! So see new ideas right there.

And yes I'm sure you could come up with new stories off the top of your head. Hell we all could. I'm not saying all of them would be that great but they'd still be new and the people at DC can definitely can to. But this thread isn't about their ability to come up with something new and different but rather their fear to use the new and different ideas they can come up with. They've been telling the same stories for decades and its time to pass the torches and see the DC universe through different characters eyes. Let the next generation come into the very roles they were created to one day fill instead of just holding them back and down where they are for all eternity.

Otherwise why even bother creating them?

Originally posted by Entity
I love that you accuse someone of being a geek considering this is a comic book forum. ermm


I consider myself a dork personally but, potato patato.



I love how you try and just resort back to the disagreements we have of characterization and use my own well know personal distaste for a character to say this isn't about what I opened the thread for.

If you read the opening post I never even made mention of Kon El to start with. It was about Freddy being basically knocked back to Captain Marvel Jr after doing such a good job in Trials of becoming the new Mightiest Mortal and taking the lead under the name Shazam.

Which bring to question, how's he going to tell the people he's helping his name?
But I digress.

True I did make mention of the idea of Connor eventually replacing Clark but only as part of my examples of things in the DC universe needing to evolve, change and grow. I also made mention of Dick becoming Bruce and I absolutely love Bruce. As I do Wally and I am fine with Diana as WW but I thing they could all use change. Don't just milk them dry until you have to realise they've been old and stale for years when we can read new and different stories about how things effect different characters in that position differently and how they have completely different issues to face.

If Connor ever did replace Clark then it wouldn't be about him dealing with being the last of his kind and the only one on Earth with that power anymore but dealing with things like the fact that he's the direct descendant of Earth's greatest hero and his worst enemy. And trying to be the lead in the world of Superheroes and proving he's more that just a replacement for the original as well as dealing with his darker side that Luther passed on to him. As Dick's wouldn't constantly be about his complete determination and dedication to "The Mission" but his trying to prove to the world he's not Batman and he's his own man and that you don't have to be so dark and secluded to help save a city so corrupt. Bruce's dark loner style isn't the only way that can work. While still trying to honor the memory of the man who was The Dark Knight! So see new ideas right there.

And yes I'm sure you could come up with new stories off the top of your head. Hell we all could. I'm not saying all of them would be that great but they'd still be new and the people at DC can definitely can to. But this thread isn't about their ability to come up with something new and different but rather their fear to use the new and different ideas they can come up with. They've been telling the same stories for decades and its time to pass the torches and see the DC universe through different characters eyes. Let the next generation come into the very roles they were created to one day fill instead of just holding them back and down where they are for all eternity.

Otherwise why even bother creating them?

superboy wasnt created to replace superman, just like robin wasn't created to replace batman... they're sidekicks, younger versions... there's nothing saying they should or shouldn't replace said heroes...

i guess we just disagree on the rest...

and i really, really disagree with you singling out DC, when marvel is just as bad, if not worse...

Originally posted by Raoul
superboy wasnt created to replace superman, just like robin wasn't created to replace batman... they're sidekicks, younger versions... there's nothing saying they should or shouldn't replace said heroes...

i guess we just disagree on the rest...

and i really, really disagree with you singling out DC, when marvel is just as bad, if not worse...
Funny considering the death of superman and region of Supermen arc I thought that was EXACTLY why Kon-El was created?

And as for Bruce, if the Robin's haven't been there to one take take on the mantle then why does DC keep trying to tell all these stories of Batman being replaced only to back out? Althou, agreeingly mostly because most of them suck. Az as Batman, wtf.

While I'll agree Marvel has it's problems with it, please please please try and show me how Marvel is worse or even really just as bad as DC.

I personally completely disagree that it's just as bad but I could at least begin to understand someones opinion on that. But it sure as hell isn't even close to worse!

Originally posted by Entity
Funny considering the death of superman and region of Supermen arc I thought that was EXACTLY why Kon-El was created?

And as for Bruce, if the Robin's haven't been there to one take take on the mantle then why does DC keep trying to tell all these stories of Batman being replaced only to back out? Althou, agreeingly mostly because most of them suck. Az as Batman, wtf.

While I'll agree Marvel has it's problems with it, please please please try and show me how Marvel is worse or even really just as bad as DC.

I personally completely disagree that it's just as bad but I could at least begin to understand someones opinion on that. But it sure as hell isn't even close to worse!

you know what? fine. i know it isn't you personally, but there is a serious anti-dc sentiment on this forum.

people don't like dc? fine, but i am sick of tired of fvckwits singling it out like its some archaic, old fashioned company...

i don't even like dc bar maybe half a dozen characters, but i just can't stand people picking on something that doesnt deserve it...

people want to know how marvel is afraid of change the way DC is? fine.

the x-men. look at uncanny or astonishing. how many of the main characters have been around since after the 80s? the comics are still about the likes of cyclops, beast, colossus, nightcrawler, storm, logan...

spider-man just got the biggest f*cking retcon ever. it might as well be the 60s again.

wolverine is back to his 80s levels for all intents and purposes.

the inhumans, the avengers, the hulk, silver surfer, galactus and the heralds. they've all changed very little since their inceptions.

what, marvel spends a couple of years changing things and suddenly they're so much better?

no.

look at wwh. he goes off to a planet, comes back, fights a bit, and is back to his big green smashing self.

thor. he has odin's power. that's development. they didn't bring in a new thor.

i am sick and tired of listening to people whine and moan about didio (who is a tard at the best of times) and dc when they're too busy riding quesada's nuts to see how bad marvel can be.

and for anyone who says 'just go back and read the 40 years of adventures they had'

piss off. seriously.

i wasn't alive in the 70s, and i spent my youngest years in the 80s. i've already read the back catalogues of the avengers, and the x-men, and superman. and one thing they all have in common? bar the odd really good arc, they are camp as hell. they are so full of shit at times that it isn't funny.

i'm alive today. this is the world i grew up in. this is the world and the society i live in. this is the world i want to see the characters i love live in, and how they see it through their eyes.

so people want to bring in new characters, go ahead. but there is nothing wrong with the people who are there in the comics right now. once they have the right writers behind them, they are as good as anything out there...

as i said, entity, i'm not pinning you with any blame, this is more of a general vent.

Originally posted by Raoul
a couple of years changing things and suddenly they're so much better?

Pretty much. ermm

Originally posted by -V-
Pretty much. ermm

not what i meant...

marvel changed its world, not its characters to the extent that they had to replace the key ones...

tony is still iron man, thor is still thor, etc...

Originally posted by Raoul
not what i meant...

marvel changed its world, not its characters to the extent that they had to replace the key ones...

tony is still iron man, thor is still thor, etc...

Steve Rogers is still Captain America. ermm

Originally posted by Raoul
not what i meant...

marvel changed its world, not its characters to the extent that they had to replace the key ones...

tony is still iron man, thor is still thor, etc... Thor took Odin's place, Tony's the head of shield and now the world hates him. Bucky's become Cap.

Villain's have become the worlds current top heroic team.

The mutants have become and endangered species and most of the Xmen have turned on Xavier including your fav Scott his prise pupil.

The Hulk's changed dramatically as well as becoming replaced by a Red villain. I never really saw the Hulk as a "Hero" anyway. More of a victim turned into a monster. Now the new Hulk replacing him is a Real Villain.

The Avengers got turned upside down and backwards.

Wanda went nuts, Pietro turned what seems to me darker than his father even was.

Strange isn't even the Sorcerer Supreme anymore.

Spidey got ****ed over major by Quesada so completely not arguing there. I'm hardly riding his nuts. I hate that bastard for what he did to my favorite hero after all this recent progression with The Other, Civil War and New Avengers.

but the point is in general Marvel's never been as bad as DC as keeping with the status quo and now is in general taking steps to improve even the problems they did have with it.

Where as DC decided to reboot all of the entire universe to keep the same old characters young and start from scratch all over again.

Originally posted by -V-
Steve Rogers is still Captain America. ermm

i meant in the larger sense.

Originally posted by Entity
Thor took Odin's place, Tony's the head of shield and now the world hates him. Bucky's become Cap.

Villain's have become the worlds current top heroic team.

The mutants have become and endangered species and most of the Xmen have turned on Xavier including your fav Scott his prise pupil.

The Hulk's changed dramatically as well as becoming replaced by a Red villain. I never really saw the Hulk as a "Hero" anyway. More of a victim turned into a monster. Now the new Hulk replacing him is a Real Villain.

The Avengers got turned upside down and backwards.

Wanda went nuts, Pietro turned what seems to me darker than his father even was.

Strange isn't even the Sorcerer Supreme anymore.

Spidey got ****ed over major by Quesada so completely not arguing there. I'm hardly riding his nuts. I hate that bastard for what he did to my favorite hero after all this recent progression with The Other, Civil War and New Avengers.

but the point is in general Marvel's never been as bad as DC as keeping with the status quo and now is in general taking steps to improve even the problems they did have with it.

Where as DC decided to reboot all of the entire universe to keep the same old characters young and start from scratch all over again.

i wasn't talking about you specifically.

though you actually proved my point for me, imo.

the x-men didn't change, their circumstances and relationships did. cyclops is still scott summers.

cap, granted.

tony stark is till iron man, whether he's head of shield or not.

hulk is still hulk, regardless of red hulk's existence.

thor is still thor. even with his new powers.

sorcerer supreme or not, its still steven strange.

see? they changed the world these characters lived in, but the characters themselves are still largely the same people. that's progression. it doesn't neccessarily mean changing the actual character or replacing them. all you need is a good writer.

dc havent rebooted the universe since the 80s. IC was a change, not a reboot. and plenty of marvel characters could do with one, imo...

Originally posted by Raoul
i meant in the larger sense.



i wasn't talking about you specifically.

though you actually proved my point for me, imo.

the x-men didn't change, their circumstances and relationships did. cyclops is still scott summers.

cap, granted.

tony stark is till iron man, whether he's head of shield or not.

hulk is still hulk, regardless of red hulk's existence.

thor is still thor. even with his new powers.

sorcerer supreme or not, its still steven strange.

see? they changed the world these characters lived in, but the characters themselves are still largely the same people. that's progression. it doesn't neccessarily mean changing the actual character or replacing them. all you need is a good writer.

dc havent rebooted the universe since the 80s. IC was a change, not a reboot. and plenty of marvel characters could do with one, imo...

In the larger sense? I don't think you can get much larger than Captain America.

I think that Marvel's just been alot smarter about the way they've gone about their business in the past few years, whilst they may not have actually progressed as much as many think; they've made it seem like they have.

That's all that matters really.

NO REBOOTS ARE NEEDED, that's what got DC into the problem they're in at the moment.

I personally believe that the little changes Marvel have made (Tony Stark becoming head of SHIELD, The Initiative, Thunderbolts) have changed many characters for the better, you don't need to have a reality-shattering event to change your characters (as OMD proved).

Originally posted by -V-
In the larger sense? I don't think you can get much larger than Captain America.

I think that Marvel's just been alot smarter about the way they've gone about their business in the past few years, whilst they may not have actually progressed as much as many think; they've made it seem like they have.

That's all that matters really.

NO REBOOTS ARE NEEDED, that's what got DC into the problem they're in at the moment.

I personally believe that the little changes Marvel have made (Tony Stark becoming head of SHIELD, The Initiative, Thunderbolts) have changed many characters for the better, you don't need to have a reality-shattering event to change your characters (as OMD proved).



i meant the world of marvel, as in, things change, laws change, but the people are still the people. and does anyone honestly think steve won't be back?

therein lies the problem, imo...

edit: missed the bit about reboots. i wasnt suggesting they have a COIE. i was talking like, as you said, and OMD type thing... something done subtly and for the benefit of the character that needs it...

Originally posted by Raoul


but the people are still the people. uhhh...no thats not true

one of my fav characters is no longer who it used to be

venom is no longer brock

booya!

Originally posted by Starscream M
uhhh...no thats not true

one of my fav characters is no longer who it used to be

venom is no longer brock

booya!

venom isn't an a-lister, though...

Originally posted by Raoul
venom isn't an a-lister, though... I'm sorry...I thought you were using Cyclops as an example as well...

Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm sorry...I thought you were using Cyclops as an example as well...

cyclops is at the very least high on the b-list. and he's not a villain. well, not usually...

Originally posted by Raoul
cyclops is at the very least high on the b-list and Venom isn't? Venom has had many mini-series...something Cyclops does not

also, Venom is a hero...at least Brock version was. he just hated spiderman.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm sorry...I thought you were using Cyclops as an example as well...

Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm sorry...I thought you were using Cyclops as an example as well...

Lulz.

Originally posted by Raoul


i meant the world of marvel, as in, things change, laws change, but the people are still the people. and does anyone honestly think steve won't be back?

therein lies the problem, imo...

edit: missed the bit about reboots. i wasnt suggesting they have a COIE. i was talking like, as you said, and OMD type thing... something done subtly and for the benefit of the character that needs it...

They aren't the same characters though, are they? Whilst they are the same people, they've progressed as people.

I think Marvel are a few years ahead in that sense, alot more of their books are actually making real progress rather than rehashing alot of the typical story lines. (of course there are exceptions, e.g the Fantastic Four, or Blue Beetle/Booster Gold)

I'm really against things like that (and retcons in general), because sooner or later someone's going to come along *cough*Joe Q*cough* and totally disregard it and/or screw someone over like that.

Originally posted by -V-
They aren't the same characters though, are they? Whilst they are the same people, they've progressed as people.

I think Marvel are a few years ahead in that sense, alot more of their books are actually making real progress rather than rehashing alot of the typical story lines. (of course there are exceptions, e.g the Fantastic Four, or Blue Beetle/Booster Gold)

I'm really against things like that (and retcons in general), because sooner or later someone's going to come along *cough*Joe Q*cough* and totally disregard it and/or screw someone over like that.

Originally posted by Starscream M
and Venom isn't? Venom has had many mini-series...something Cyclops does not

also, Venom is a hero...at least Brock version was. he just hated spiderman.

he has a mini. ok... has he been a main character of a major marvel comic for 40 odd years? has he been time and again a central character in almost every arc that involved the characters around him?

no?

Originally posted by -V-
They aren't the same characters though, are they? Whilst they are the same people, they've progressed as people.

I think Marvel are a few years ahead in that sense, alot more of their books are actually making real progress rather than rehashing alot of the typical story lines. (of course there are exceptions, e.g the Fantastic Four, or Blue Beetle/Booster Gold)

I'm really against things like that (and retcons in general), because sooner or later someone's going to come along *cough*Joe Q*cough* and totally disregard it and/or screw someone over like that.

that's what i've been trying to say the ENTIRE time... facepalm

i don't want characters replaced, i want to see them grow as people...

Originally posted by Raoul
he has a mini. ok... has he been a main character of a major marvel comic for 40 odd years? has he been time and again a central character in almost every arc that involved the characters around him?

no?



that's what i've been trying to say the ENTIRE time... facepalm

i don't want characters replaced, i want to see them grow as people...

I said it better. ermm

Originally posted by -V-
I said it better. ermm

i'm not saying you didn't.

People fear change it's true!

Originally posted by kgkg
People fear change it's true! change sux it's true

Originally posted by Raoul
i'm not saying you didn't.

(h5)

Originally posted by -V-
(h5)

(h5)

Originally posted by Raoul
(h5) you remind me of Scott

Originally posted by Starscream M
you remind me of Scott

i remind a lot of people of scott. it's one of the reasons i like the character so much...

do you remind people of venom?

Originally posted by Raoul
i remind a lot of people of scott. it's one of the reasons i like the character so much...

do you remind people of venom?

no...I remind them of Starscream. wink

---

amongst my group of friends, we use "you remind us of Cyclops" as a euphemism for "please remove that stick from your behind"











not relly

Originally posted by Starscream M
no...I remind them of Starscream.

is that necessarily a good thing?

Originally posted by Starscream M
amongst my group of friends, we use "you remind us of Cyclops" as a euphemism for "please remove that stick from your behind"

Originally posted by Raoul
i remind a lot of people of scott. it's one of the reasons i like the character so much...

do you remind people of venom?

really ? I didn't think that many common folk would know about Scott, and his personal habits.

Originally posted by Starscream M
amongst my group of friends, we use "you remind us of Cyclops" as a euphemism for "please remove that stick from your behind"











not relly

So you're cowardly and treacherous ?

Originally posted by Mr. Funktastic

So you're cowardly and treacherous ? nah...Starscream to me is someone who is smart and ambitious and a bit power hungry

Originally posted by Mr. Funktastic
really ? I didn't think that many common folk would know about Scott, and his personal habits.



his or mine?

Originally posted by Starscream M
nah...Starscream to me is someone who is smart and ambitious and a bit power hungry

don't get me wrong , the thing I liked best about Starscream was his intelligence. to bad greed got the better of him.

he was also one of the less honorable Decepticons..

Looks like we all agree that Paul sucks.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Looks like we all agree that Paul sucks.

you wish i did, don't you?

Originally posted by Raoul
you wish i did, don't you?
vin

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
vin

flirt

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
No one liked WWH huh?

Take a look around the forum, talk to a couple of people.
People liked Onslaught too, doesn't mean it wasn't a shit event.

I still never heard anyone praise WWH to the point of calling it the best story of 2007. If you can find someone who will make that claim I've love to make fun of their taste in comics.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Yeah but it seems silly to say Captain Marvel should always be Billy Batson when Freddy has never been given a chance. I mean, I'm pretty sure the majority of this forum likes Wally over Barry and Jay, yes?

actuyally no barry was my fav flash by miles....i like them all but barry was my fav!!!

but i get what your saying and agree to a cretin point

Barry >> Wally

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
I mean, I'm pretty sure the majority of this forum likes Wally over Barry and Jay, yes?
Most of these guys weren't even alive when Barry was still around, even some of those that claim they like Barry better, don't even know the character, just his mythology.

Originally posted by Juntai
Most of these guys weren't even alive when Barry was still around, even some of those that claim they like Barry better, don't even know the character, just his mythology.

i agree...because im only 20 years of age and the only real reason i know anything about barry is because my dad is a huge comic geek and he had the comics.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
i agree...because im only 20 years of age and the only real reason i know anything about barry is because my dad is a huge comic geek and he had the comics.

Good point.

Also, the whole thing that characters like Barry or Captain Marvel are unheard or unknown to new readers is quite frivolous. The DC Archive Editions are available for anyone to read....for both new and old readers.

Wally owns Barry, fools. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Wally owns Barry, fools. Deal with it.

only because wally has had way more experience then barry...if barry knew as much about the speed force as wally i think it would be the other way around.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Wally owns Barry, fools. Deal with it.
aYiPfZ6m_IU

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Good point.

Also, the whole thing that characters like Barry or Captain Marvel are unheard or unknown to new readers is quite frivolous. The DC Archive Editions are available for anyone to read....for both new and old readers. They are available, so are back-issues, but ask a lot of young kids about Barry Allen. . . who?

Originally posted by Juntai
Most of these guys weren't even alive when Barry was still around, even some of those that claim they like Barry better, don't even know the character, just his mythology.

I wasn't alive.

Still like him better.

Still read the comics.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Wally owns Barry, fools. Deal with it.

Pffft. go listen to hanna montana.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Wally owns Barry, fools. Deal with it.

http://webpages.charter.net/tenks/picard.gif

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
I wasn't alive.

Still like him better.

Still read the comics.
. 1 in a billion.

The only way to like him better is if you prefer silver and golden age corny-ness, really, because Wally's character has been written much better, with much better art.

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
I wasn't alive.

Still like him better.

Still read the comics.

but that's you... ermm

Originally posted by Juntai
1 in a billion.

The only way to like him better is if you prefer silver and golden age corny-ness, really, because Wally's character has been written much better, with much better art.

You're right, Wally's personality is logically better. It's not possible to actually prefer Barry, Wally's personality was better and that's that!

Wait, Barry has a personality?

Flash Rebirth is all the Barry I'll ever need probably.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Flash Rebirth is all the Barry I'll ever need probably. Johns just understands superhero books somehow, that very few others seem to get.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Wait, Barry has a personality?

Don't poke a hornet's nest...son uhuh

well speaking of character replacement, ifeel the title shouldnt be given to them. like bucky should stay winter soilder and just take steves role, but not the name.

Originally posted by jalek moye
well speaking of character replacement, ifeel the title shouldnt be given to them. like bucky should stay winter soilder and just take steves role, but not the name. Well I personally think Captain American itself is symbolic and needs to always be Captain America but otherwise thats exactly how I feel about Dick Grayson taking Batman's role.

He's should one day take Bruce's place but still be known as Nightwing.
I do like the idea thou of one day Dick passing it on to Tim who would pull off the Batman title again well. IMO

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Wait, Barry has a personality?

Flash fact!