Man of Miracles Vs Classic Beyonder

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SouthSpawn
I say this is one guy that the Beyonder wouldn't be able to destroy.

I think it's a draw at best for the Beyonder.

This guy is a lot cooler than the Beyonder also smile

cloud102
What can Man of Miracles do?

guy222
MoM=TOAA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Miracles_(comics)

Knowsbleed33
Beyonder.

guy222
Stalemate

UKR
Originally posted by guy222
MoM=TOAA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Miracles_(comics)


I fail to see how an album by Styx is equal to God. In any case, the idea that mom (lol) is equal to God is nonsense, there's no reason to think he is. Image characters overall are a heck of a lot weaker than Marvel's. Image's idea of "truly omnipotent" is likely weaker than many Marvel cosmic types.

occultdestroyer
Man of Miracles

Mr Master
Beyonder

Galan007
Stalemate.

Mordum
man of miracles ftw.

"Immortality, Omnipotence, Omniscience, Powers Beyond Than of God and Satan,Avatar Creation"

xJLxKing
Man of miracle is very powerful. He is more powerful then God, or Satan. He can universes. She/He partically plays with the Gods and Satans soul killing them and moving them like toys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Miracles_(comics)

kevdude
MoM takes it

Galan007
But.... Beyonder is an infinite times more powerful than the combined infinite universe, which is really an infinite multiverse!!

Basically, Beyonder >> infinity >>> infinity


dur

Utrigita
Stalemate.

guy222
thumb up

Philosophía
Originally posted by Galan007
Stalemate.

Admittedly I haven't read anything Spawn-related but, why ? From what I understand, MoM is supreme in the true sense of the world, so why wouldn't it be able to defeat the Beyonder ?

skyfather
Originally posted by Mordum
man of miracles ftw.

"Immortality, Omnipotence, Omniscience, Powers Beyond Than of God and Satan,Avatar Creation"

celestialdemon
Stalemate

Bentley
I will be happy when people stop doing threads about omnipotents.

ultimatethor
Originally posted by Bentley
I will be happy when people stop doing threads about omnipotents.

Very happy indeed.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
But.... Beyonder is an infinite times more powerful than the combined infinite universe, which is really an infinite multiverse!!

Basically, Beyonder >> infinity >>> infinity


dur

Pfft. Trans-infinite multiverse. Come correct, son.

Galan007
Originally posted by Philosophía
Admittedly I haven't read anything Spawn-related but, why ? From what I understand, MoM is supreme in the true sense of the world, so why wouldn't it be able to defeat the Beyonder ? Because I'd rather not see a page(s)-spanning debate from those whom refuse to remove their mouth from Beyonder's member. smile

Mordum
mom is in the true sense god(end all,be all,know all)

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
Because I'd rather not see a page(s)-spanning debate from those whom refuse to remove their mouth from Beyonder's member. smile

I think your first comment about a stalemate was correct. I mean, even the Heart of the Infinite wasn't able to kill Death due to some clause like, "So long as there is at least one life, there will also be Death." That, and that she lives outside of space and time (one of the few abstracts that does). Yet, Beyonder destroyed her. And easily. So even taking away the creation of the Beyond Realm and other feats of his, that one alone is still enough to put him at the very least above a current LT level.

Galan007
Originally posted by Enyalus
I think your first comment about a stalemate was correct. I mean, even the Heart of the Infinite wasn't able to kill Death due to some clause like, "So long as there is at least one life, there will also be Death." That, and that she lives outside of space and time (one of the few abstracts that does). Yet, Beyonder destroyed her. And easily. So even taking away the creation of the Beyond Realm and other feats of his, that one alone is still enough to put him at the very least above a current LT level. Death escaped Thanos' rampage because she was outside of creation when said purge transpired. That being said, had Death been within creation at the time she would have certainly been wiped out along with everything else.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Enyalus
*skip* http://i38.tinypic.com/vh95pc.gif

Dark-Jaxx
Stalemate

occultdestroyer
Beyonder beating Man of Miracles is like Beyonder beating TOAA.
Spite thread BTW

Knowsbleed33
Beyonder.

Mindset
Originally posted by Philosophía
http://i38.tinypic.com/vh95pc.gif http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/diancecht_3x6/housepunch.gif

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by UKR
Image characters overall are a heck of a lot weaker than Marvel's. not really


for example classic beyonder himself said he wasn't immortal (i he can be killed)


now take image's Urizen (the dark god, he eats souls) he's stated to be completely immortal (nothing will ever kill him). same goes for God & Satan (MoM - who btw is the "real god" in image - said so himself/herself)

Knowsbleed33
They're weaker.

Beyonder has feats that makes Image's gods look like chumps.

guy222
stalemate

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
They're weaker.

Beyonder has feats that makes Image's gods look like chumps. and yet he can be killed, and they cannot ^__^

Nestical
beyonder

Enyalus
Can't stop the H2H soloing fury of the Beyonder.

Mindset
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
not really


for example classic beyonder himself said he wasn't immortal (i he can be killed)


now take image's Urizen (the dark god, he eats souls) he's stated to be completely immortal (nothing will ever kill him). same goes for God & Satan (MoM - who btw is the "real god" in image - said so himself/herself) Immortality does not prevent you from being erased from existence.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Mindset
Immortality does not prevent you from being erased from existence. the MoM said that the elder gods (like Urizen) & the new gods (like god & satan) would forever be, regardless what happened (and that's why the war between the god & satan would last forever)
they have true immortality in that they cannot cease to exist

Enyalus
Urizen was a badass. Before he got swallowed by Greenworld or whatever.

Mindset
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
the MoM said that the elder gods (like Urizen) & the new gods (like god & satan) would forever be, regardless what happened (and that's why the war between the god & satan would last forever)
they have true immortality in that they cannot cease to exist So even MoM couldn't erase them?

I thought he was omnipotent.

Even if that is so, it really means nothing, immortality does not make you stronger than someone who can destroy a multiverse. Look up the character Mr. Immortal.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Mindset
So even MoM couldn't erase them?

I thought he was omnipotent. nope even MoM cant erase them

but hey he created them so its like they're a part of him or something

it's like asking if a true omnipotent can make a mountain he cannot lift (and the answer is no stick out tongue)




and yeah Urizen roxors cool

Mindset
Originally posted by SoulDevourer

it's like asking if a true omnipotent can make a mountain he cannot lift (and the answer is no stick out tongue)


No, that's not the same thing.


Also look at my edited post.

SoulDevourer
no but at least it means you can't lose


btw mr immortal can't be killed by conventional means but he can still be erased...?

Mindset
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
no but at least it means you can't lose


btw mr immortal can't be killed by conventional means but he can be erased...?

Being immortal doesn't mean you can't lose, it means you can be killed. Which was my point of brining up Mr. Immortal, he doesn't have the power close to Beyonder, he can still be beaten by Beyonder, he just can't be killed (presumably).

Mr. Immortal will be around until the end of the universe, no he can't.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Mindset
Being immortal doesn't mean you can't lose, it means you can be killed. Which was my point of brining up Mr. Immortal, he doesn't have the power close to Beyonder, he can still be beaten by Beyonder, he just can't be killed (presumably).

Mr. Immortal will be around until the end of the universe, no he can't. yeah but as long as you're not (permanently) killed there's hope : you can live to get yur revenge even if it takes eternity big grin

beyonder for all his power can still be killed (guess he can't grant himself full immortality) so even he must worry about surviving. and he knows whatever he does to the other guy there's always risk that the other guy will get back to him...some day. basically the pressure's on him ^^


Urizen for example had to be locked up (again) in some greenworld prison cause they knew whatever they did he'd always be around

Mindset
I doubt Beyonder would worry about someone killing him.

SoulDevourer
is pre-retcon beyonder suppose to be part of a race (beyonders) or is he like one of his kind all alone in his universe ???

complexbrother
Originally posted by UKR
I fail to see how an album by Styx is equal to God. In any case, the idea that mom (lol) is equal to God is nonsense, there's no reason to think he is. Image characters overall are a heck of a lot weaker than Marvel's. Image's idea of "truly omnipotent" is likely weaker than many Marvel cosmic types.

I absolutly agree. rock

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
and yet he can be killed, and they cannot ^__^

When was he killed?

Lord Prime
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Miracles_(comics)

This is the real link to MoM/Man of Miracles.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
When was he killed? I didnt say he was killed I said he said he could be killed smile

Knowsbleed33
Where does it say he could be killed?

SoulDevourer
at one point he gave phoenix god-like powers and told her she could kill him and that if she did he would let her...or something like that

also there was this mutant called the puma - beyonder told him that he was virtually impossible to kill (in other words not plain impossible big grin)

Knowsbleed33
He gave Phoenix the power to do that.

SoulDevourer
even if that's so, a true immortal would never be able to get killed no matter how much power was used (not even using equal or greater power than his)

for example MoM is fully omnipotent & more powerful then God Satan or Urizen yet even he can't kill them (even though he made them)

Knowsbleed33
MoM is the supreme being of 1 universe. Beyonder is the supreme being of a multiverse that makes the entire Marvelverse look like a fly on the wall.

ultimatethor
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
even if that's so, a true immortal would never be able to get killed no matter how much power was used (not even using equal or greater power than his)

for example MoM is fully omnipotent & more powerful then God Satan or Urizen yet even he can't kill them (even though he made them)

You see this is where it gets confusing. Cuz if he cant kill them then he isnt truly "omnipotent" as there i still something he doesnt have the ability to do.

id369
MoM was and still is the be all end all Omnipotent god of the Spawn verse. He/She takes this match.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
MoM is the supreme being of 1 universe. Beyonder is the supreme being of a multiverse that makes the entire Marvelverse look like a fly on the wall. yeah and yet MoM is eternal, Beyonder is not

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by ultimatethor
You see this is where it gets confusing. Cuz if he cant kill them then he isnt truly "omnipotent" as there i still something he doesnt have the ability to do. no he's still omnipotent. its just that since they're a part of him then itd be like killing a part of himself which he can't do but that doesnt really contradict omnipotence (or maybe it does (or it doesn't (shit this is confusing)))

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
yeah and yet MoM is eternal, Beyonder is not

Not since his retcon he's not. This is PR Beyonder who has feats beyond MoM.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Not since his retcon he's not. This is PR Beyonder who has feats beyond MoM. yeah...this is how it started : you said he's got better feats sure but PR beyonder despite all his power can still die wheras MoM cant (MoM is eternal). and since MoM cant die he cant lose

this doesn't mean he wins - but at least he doesn't lose stick out tongue

Knowsbleed33
Feats>Speculation.

SoulDevourer
facts <> speculation



edit: can't find the pics with phoenix & puma but u said it was true anyway

Mindset
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
facts <> speculation


lol wat is that?

Astner
Originally posted by id369
MoM was and still is the be all end all Omnipotent god of the Spawn verse. He/She takes this match.
What does that have to do with anything?

Beyonder's feats > Man of Miracles' feats

id369
Originally posted by Astner
What does that have to do with anything?

Beyonder's feats > Man of Miracles' feats

It means he is a True Omnipotent.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
facts <> speculation



edit: can't find the pics with phoenix & puma but u said it was true anyway

Fact: PR Beyonder has WAY more high end feats than MoM.

Speculation: MoM is more powerful than the Beyonder.

id369
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Fact: PR Beyonder has WAY more high end feats than MoM.

Speculation: MoM is more powerful than the Beyonder.


FACT: MoM, is an established omnipotent entity in the Image verse, no different then TOAA in marvel.

Nothing more is needed, to dictate otherwise.

Knowsbleed33
FACT: As was the Beyonder pre-retcon.

Feats speak way louder than implied power sets.

id369
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
FACT: As was the Beyonder pre-retcon.

Feats speak way louder than implied power sets.

I don’t think you understand, its power is not implied at all. There is no higher power for a character to obtain, or be established as; If he/she is the legitimate absolute force behind their respective series. What will you do? Deny what the comic states?

Why members, rant on and on about comparing feats with such a character is ridiculous. Now comparing characters below the Real TOAA, MoM, Presence, Tenchi Muyo etc… that is fair game, since their powers have a legitimate bench mark to make an analysis from.

I favor, MoM because no writer has stated that he/she isn’t the one true Omnipotent god in the Spawnverse. The same can not be said, about Beyonder hence the reason whey he has eras. And there are contradictional statements that imply, he isn’t as omnipotent as he claims to be….or the writer interprets omnipotence in a different sense.

Knowsbleed33
He's not omnipotent if he can't kill God or the Devil as said above.

I think it is you who doesn't understand.

id369
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He's not omnipotent if he can't kill God or the Devil as said above.

I think it is you who doesn't understand.

Says who? Not the comics, members need to read and pay attention.

He created them, removed them from their seats of power, de powered them, transformed them, outright humiliated. Even God Spawn was both granted and removed from these powers.

Nothing shorter then some one of MoM caliber would be needed to effect their immortality, and MoM only replied a decision not destroy them, so that she may not violate her own rules.

rotiart
... what? she has rules she can't break?

people thought you couldn't kill death ... but beyonder proved them wrong...

guy222
Stalemate

vlaaad12345
Hey ID was that one sequence where Spawn went to a different level of reality and comic book characters from dc and marvel were held captive..including their writers still canon or did it get retconned?cause if thats that cause....even the comic writers are bellow MOM in the spawnverse.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He's not omnipotent if he can't kill God or the Devil as said above.

I think it is you who doesn't understand. this don't contradict omnipotence. it's like asking if the abrahamic god of the torah/bible/koran can commit suicide (he can't but once again no contradiction with his omnipotence)


on the other hand something's not omnipotent if it can be killed

Astner
Originally posted by id369
It means he is a True Omnipotent.
And now the burden of proof lies on you.

(Waits for concession)

Originally posted by id369
I don’t think you understand, its power is not implied at all. There is no higher power for a character to obtain, or be established as; If he/she is the legitimate absolute force behind their respective series. What will you do? Deny what the comic states?
First off you can't prove your claim. Omnipotence is term that has been tossed around within different fictions, meaning completely different things. Furthermore, we don't base our arguments on "statements", but rather on feats--panel or not.

And it's easy to make a more powerful character than the most powerful within the fiction. Marvel could write in the next handbook that there's one being above The-One-Above-All, but it isn't necessary a retcon--if The-One-Above-All feats are still canon (creating the omniverse, the Living Tribunal and so forth).

Even if there is a "ultimate force" it's impossible to prove, hence not an "ultimate force" in debate, whether it's true or not.

Originally posted by id369
Why members, rant on and on about comparing feats with such a character is ridiculous. Now comparing characters below the Real TOAA, MoM, Presence, Tenchi Muyo etc… that is fair game, since their powers have a legitimate bench mark to make an analysis from.

I would hardly say that any of the above are equal, saving the Presence and The-One-Above-All--as Marvel and DC seem to have that cross-over bond. Even if we overlook that it's still pretty hard to assume who's the most powerful of the two.

Omnipotence is not an argument if it can't be proven, in other words "Omnipotence is not an argument."

id369
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Hey ID was that one sequence where Spawn went to a different level of reality and comic book characters from dc and marvel were held captive..including their writers still canon or did it get retconned?cause if thats that cause....even the comic writers are bellow MOM in the spawnverse.

Well to be honest, that wasn’t a dream sequence. Angela’s lance, effectively removes a Hell Spawn from one plane of existence into another. Spawn was in another plane of existence, until he woke up.

Spawn effectively willed himself into existence, to get back to earth. Or better yet to be more precise, he used his latent reality warping powers to get back.

And no its has not bin ret-coned.

Originally posted by rotiart
... what? she has rules she can't break?

people thought you couldn't kill death ... but beyonder proved them wrong...

There is a difference between cant and wont. She wont do so, because she does not want to disturb the order in the universe she set.

id369
Originally posted by Astner
And now the burden of proof lies on you.

(Waits for concession)


First off you can't prove your claim. Omnipotence is term that has been tossed around within different fictions, meaning completely different things. Furthermore, we don't base our arguments on "statements", but rather on feats--panel or not.

And it's easy to make a more powerful character than the most powerful within the fiction. Marvel could write in the next handbook that there's one being above The-One-Above-All, but it isn't necessary a retcon--if The-One-Above-All feats are still canon (creating the omniverse, the Living Tribunal and so forth).

Even if there is a "ultimate force" it's impossible to prove, hence not an "ultimate force" in debate, whether it's true or not.




Really I don’t have to go beyond the fact that, she states she is the creator of everything, and that there is no greater force then here.

From this point on, all I expect from you is an endless rant of how you view omnipotence or not.

Originally posted by Astner

I would hardly say that any of the above are equal, saving the Presence and The-One-Above-All--as Marvel and DC seem to have that cross-over bond. Even if we overlook that it's still pretty hard to assume who's the most powerful of the two.

Omnipotence is not an argument if it can't be proven, in other words "Omnipotence is not an argument."

Are members reading this? Neither from the list have any feats the way Beyonder has. Yet they are vague entities of each respective company, who are credited to being the be all, end all of their fictional establishment.

Astner
Originally posted by id369
Really I don’t have to go beyond the fact that, she states she is the creator of everything, and that there is no greater force then here.
Actually you do, just because she's the demiurge doesn't mean she can't be surpassed. She might be unsurpassed in whatever fiction you're specifying, but unsurpassed and unsurpassable are two different terms.

Originally posted by id369
From this point on, all I expect from you is an endless rant of how you view omnipotence or not.
Illogical fallacy: Poisoning the well

Furthermore, if you're not willing to discuss you might as well concede. I'm asking for omnipotence as you define it, on panel. If there is no proof then it will as all other ideas be dismissed.

Basing on my experience with you from Narutofan, I guess that omnipotence is, to you, when a immensely powerful character, often of "creator" status haven't shown any limits--correct me if I'm wrong.

In reasonable debates however, it's known as a no limits fallacy.

Even if you think the character is powerful (or omnipotent), you aren't suppose to suggest it unless you have evidence for it.

Originally posted by id369
Are members reading this? Neither from the list have any feats the way Beyonder has. Yet they are vague entities of each respective company, who are credited to being the be all, end all of their fictional establishment.
We know that both of them are the demiurge of their creations, omiverses--which pretty much equals or extend the Beyond-realm. The feats doesn't necessarily have to be on-panel.

id369
Originally posted by Astner
Actually you do, just because she's the demiurge doesn't mean she can't be surpassed. She might be unsurpassed in whatever fiction you're specifying, but unsurpassed and unsurpassable are two different terms.


Illogical fallacy: Poisoning the well

Furthermore, if you're not willing to discuss you might as well concede. I'm asking for omnipotence as you define it, on panel. If there is no proof then it will as all other ideas be dismissed.

Basing on my experience with you from Narutofan, I guess that omnipotence is, to you, when a immensely powerful character, often of "creator" status haven't shown any limits--correct me if I'm wrong.

In reasonable debates however, it's known as a no limits fallacy.

Even if you think the character is powerful (or omnipotent), you aren't suppose to suggest it unless you have evidence for it.


We know that both of them are the demiurge of their creations, omiverses--which pretty much equals or extend the Beyond-realm. The feats doesn't necessarily have to be on-panel.

Actually I disagree entirely. If the premises of such fictional literature establishes its one true and only God. Then by laws of fictional interchangeability, its omnipotence must be acknowledged and respected. Regardless if said character takes place in a more condense title.

To go beyond the fact, just diminishes to the points and views of what you regard unsurpassed/unsurpassable. This is what you want to debate isn’t it?



If so, its pointless Michael Demiurgos, Beyonder or what ever name you go by these days. Because this subject has bin dealt with numerous times, and I don’t see if you will offer any different perspective then when you debated Comic Book Guy, Endless Mike, Anti Exsistance, Ukoku Sanzo, Ryoma Nagare…etc.. or myself.

You wish to know what my definition of Omnipotence is. The definitive All Powerful/All Knowing cosmic creator.

Wait, that’s soo cliché. I will quote a character, from a much hated manga.
Immaculate being..was it? In this secular existence, perfection is an illusion…regardless of all those who utter the contrary…this is the reality. Common man seeks out…they aspire to achieve it, as if it were some tangible thing. But ….the fact of the matter is, perfection is a hollow shell.. It is..devoid..of any substance. I spit on perfection.! Perfection after all implies you’ve reached the summit…no trail, no error, no ability to conceptualize. An omniscient being would have no need for such superfluous things.. Am I making myself clear?


Anyhow until Iimage decides to create a character that surpasses MoM, no different then if Marvel decided to create a character that surpasses TOAA. Then to this date, no different to TOAA, MoM will continue to be that comic title Omnipotent entity.

starlock
MOM for the oh so easy win.

Nestical
beyonder stomps

Knowsbleed33
Beyonder still.

Astner
Originally posted by id369
Actually I disagree entirely. If the premises of such fictional literature establishes its one true and only God. Then by laws of fictional interchangeability, its omnipotence must be acknowledged and respected. Regardless if said character takes place in a more condense title.

To go beyond the fact, just diminishes to the points and views of what you regard unsurpassed/unsurpassable. This is what you want to debate isn’t it?
Established omnipotence, omnipotence by your definition that is, is what I'm looking for. Which you have and will be unable to provide.

And there are numerous interpretations of the term omnipotence, on wikipedia (omnipotence paradox) for instance it's divided into five categories.

There are various definitions in dictionaries and alike, but all pretty vague and easy to shape so it would apply to the definition you're seeking.

As for respecting the acknowledgments in the various fictions. Should we respect it in the same sense as we respect that Vegeto was unmatched in the Dragonball universe--and therefore unmatched in all other fictional universes as well? Because that is essentially what you are implying.

And as I stated above, that is a no limits fallacy.

Originally posted by id369
If so, its pointless Michael Demiurgos, Beyonder or what ever name you go by these days.
Astner is fine as you can see by my username, but I don't any relevance what so ever for it to be brought up in the argument.

Originally posted by id369
Because this subject has bin dealt with numerous times, and I don’t see if you will offer any different perspective then when you debated Comic Book Guy, Endless Mike, Anti Exsistance, Ukoku Sanzo, Ryoma Nagare…etc.. or myself.
Again, any theory, hypothesis or coherent idea even are open for questions and debate. I asked your to back up your claim and you failed to do so.

Originally posted by id369
You wish to know what my definition of Omnipotence is. The definitive All Powerful/All Knowing cosmic creator.
I see, and I'm sure it's only a few that share that definition--keep that in mind.

I am however curious of various points in your suggested idea.

You said that it has to be a creator, and in a sense that it true--it has to be the cause of everything, and creation is a part of that--however it also means that it's a destroyer, or more encompassing, the cause of all actions.

As for omniscience--for an omnipotent to have a consciousness would be to limit the omnipotent. A with all knowledge and power would be far more inefficient than the quantum principle for instance.

"The definitive all powerful" was also an interesting choose of words. We can think beyond all that is. Everything, or "All", is within the framework of logic. With imagination, and (or with-) mathematical formulas you can however extend the eleventh dimension in M-theory and go beyond the omniverse--it's not logical but it is possible. So if you limit your supposed omnipotent to "All that is", instead of "All that is and isn't" (even that wouldn't be enough) I can easily imagine something beyond that.
And by that your omnipotent would in my mind be restricted, hence surpassable.

Originally posted by id369
Anyhow until Iimage decides to create a character that surpasses MoM, no different then if Marvel decided to create a character that surpasses TOAA. Then to this date, no different to TOAA, MoM will continue to be that comic title Omnipotent entity.
I never denied that he wore the omnipotent title. Simply that he, when compared to a selected few others doesn't measure up. There are so many outrageous statements in the world of fiction, both by authors and characters--that they shouldn't be taken as seriously. And even if there weren't, the possibility of them alone should be taken under consideration. The Mother from Image comics are, as far as we know it, the creator of a type-one multiverse (basically a cluster of an infinite amount of time-lines). The Man of Miracles is the walking avatar of the Mother--just like Jesus.

And that's all that the Mother is to us debaters, an entity with power to create a type-one multiverse. Because that is what the Mother has done, in a debate I can use these pieces of evidence. And would, by that be defeated by the likes of World's funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk.

What you are trying to do is use a term which has been to illustrate the Mother, and then apply your definition to it. The error in this lies in the suggestions that it might be hyperbole, or that the authors didn't share your definition.
And again, maybe you're right. Maybe the authors shared your definition and meant exactly what you were trying to tell. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a fallacious argument, as it lacks any kind of evidence--and is therefore not a reasonable way to debate.

guy222
Good opinions between u both

Stalemate IMO

Mr Master
Originally posted by SoulDevourer

beyonder for all his power can still be killed

(guess he can't grant himself full immortality)
laughing

Beyonder had no beginning, and no end.

Beyonder was never killed, and as far as evidence goes, couldn't be either.

Beyonder existed before the concept of Eternity/Infinity itself.
Originally posted by SoulDevourer

is pre-retcon beyonder suppose to be part of a race (beyonders)

or is he like one of his kind all alone in his universe ???
And with this question,
I see you must've acquired the prior claim above from a source other than Marvel comics.

Mr Master
Originally posted by SoulDevourer

at one point he gave phoenix god-like powers
and told her she could kill him and that if she did he would let her...
or something like.
This is why I always encourage members to read the comics for themselves,
instead of picking up snippets of info here and there.

Your claim is mis-leading because you didn't read the story.

First, Rachel was nothing to Beyonder unless he willed it.

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062237_B1.jpg

In fact, Beyonder gave Rachel the full power of the Phoenix Force,
in order for her to destroy his form, not his immortal existence.
And the reason was,
for him to return to his natural state back into the Beyond Realm.

It had absolutely nothing to do with any mortality.

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062238_B2.jpg

"I was your catspaw, break the crystal, destroy the Universe,
it wouldn't kill you,
merely re-create your state of primal unbeing" ... (Beyond Realm)
Originally posted by SoulDevourer

also there was this mutant called the puma -
beyonder told him that he was virtually impossible to kill

(in other words not plain impossible)
Or in other words, just plain rubbish.

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062239_B3.jpg

Beyonder: "Hi Puma"

Puma: "He's got no scent, he could've come up behind me and struck me dead"

Beyonder: "I wouldn't need to sneak up on you to do that"

erm

Mr Master
Originally posted by id369

MoM was and still is the be all end all Omnipotent god of the Spawn verse.

He/She takes this match.
Beyonder was (not anymore) the be all end all Omnipotent GOD of the Beyond Realm.
Then Beyonder entered the Marvelverse,
and became the Supreme power of that Actuality,
with absolute control over all reality, heck, his thoughts were reality.

MoM doesn't take jack, at best, for the sake of argument, MoM stalemates.
Originally posted by id369

FACT: MoM, is an established omnipotent entity in the Image verse
FACT: Beyonder was the most powerful being ever to exist in the Marvel Universe.

That's actually a literal quote from classic Beyonder's 1985 bio.
Originally posted by id369

I don’t think you understand, its power is not implied at all.
There is no higher power for a character to obtain, or be established as;
If he/she is the legitimate absolute force behind their respective series. What will you do?

Deny what the comic states?
I don't think you understand either friend, Beyonder's power was implied.
There was no higher power for a character to obtain, or be establish as;
Beyonder was the legitimate absolute force behind the Beyond Realm/Marvelverse.

So what will you do?

Deny what the comics state, and depicted? (On Panel and in Handbooks)
Originally posted by id369

I favor, MoM
because no writer has stated that he/she isn’t the one true Omnipotent god in the Spawnverse.

The same can not be said, about Beyonder hence the reason whey he has eras.
Love for you to show us what writer devalued Beyonder's true Omnipotence.

In fact, the Writer/Creator of the Secret Wars labelled Beyonder ... GOD!
In fact, he even labelled Beyonder, GOD,
before the concept of God entered Human imagination.
Originally posted by id369

And there are contradictional statements that imply,
he isn’t as omnipotent as he claims to be….
or the writer interprets omnipotence in a different sense.
I'm all eyes.
Originally posted by id369

Says who? Not the comics, members need to read and pay attention.
Same could be said about your unsupported statements concerning the Beyonder.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Mr Master
Or in other words, just plain rubbish.

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062239_B3.jpg

Beyonder: "Hi Puma"

Puma: "He's got no scent, he could've come up behind me and struck me dead"

Beyonder: "I wouldn't need to sneak up on you to do that"

erm so whats this then:

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/2958/vihb2.jpg

confused

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Mr Master
laughing

Beyonder had no beginning, and no end.

Beyonder was never killed, and as far as evidence goes, couldn't be either.

Beyonder existed before the concept of Eternity/Infinity itself.THEN ITS LIKE HE WAS NEVER RETCONNED !

he just changed name ("pre retcon beynder = TOAA"wink smokin' their cant be 2 one above alls



anyways ive got good match then

we know adaptation can pwn omnipotence

so we pit pre retcon beyonder vs fury big grin intersting match no? (fury meets his match (maybe))
who wins? beyonder is omnipotent but fury evolve counter measure against beyonder's power so stalemate maybe

Knowsbleed33
Fury would lose.

You can't compare Mad Jim Jaspers inability to turn Fury into a coke can as an indication of the Fury being able to hang with PR Beyonder.

Mr Master
Originally posted by SoulDevourer

so whats this then:

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/2958/vihb2.jpg


Exactly what it says, that Beyonder is virtually impossible to kill.

Here's the full context of the statement:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062265_B4.jpg


I see you had it the other way around,
well we all learn as we go.

smile
Originally posted by SoulDevourer

THEN ITS LIKE HE WAS NEVER RETCONNED !

he just changed name ("pre retcon beynder = TOAA"wink

their cant be 2 one above alls
Actually, that's what Beyonder was until he was retconned into something else.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Mr Master
Exactly what it says, that Beyonder is virtually impossible to kill.

Here's the full context of the statement:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062265_B4.jpg


I see yo had it the other way around,
well we all learn as we go.

smile but virtually impossible = almost impossible but not 100% impossible...or not...?????? huh

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Fury would lose.

You can't compare Mad Jim Jaspers inability to turn Fury into a coke can as an indication of the Fury being able to hang with PR Beyonder. but MJJ was omniversal threat

and omniverse = everything (inc. beyond realm)

and MJJ lost again Fury

beyonder's also omniversal level. maybe fury can beat him too cool

Mr Master
Originally posted by SoulDevourer

but virtually impossible = almost impossible but not 100% impossible...
or not...??????
If you wish to nitpick now
cause you just witnessed your statement was incorrect,
by all means do so.

Bottom line: (concerning the claims you repeated across this thread)

1. Rachel (Phoenix Force or not) was never, and could never kill, or even hurt Beyonder.

2. Beyonder never stated that Puma was virtually impossible to kill.


Proven with On Panel evidence. thumb up

Knowsbleed33
You're comparing MJJ to a supreme being?

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Mr Master
2. Beyonder never stated that Puma was virtually impossible to kill. huh thats not what i said

on panel beyonder is saying that he (beyonder) is virtually impossible to kill


or is beyonder speaking of some1 else confused

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
You're comparing MJJ to a supreme being? he is omniversal threat and on panel it says hes god so yeah he's a supreme being (and hes more powerful than merlyn whos the guardian of the omniverse (that puts merlyn on living tribunal level since living tribunal is also guardian of omniverse)) that makes MJJ >> LT

Knowsbleed33
Goodness.

It said if he was left unchecked he would become God. God in the same way Thanos was "God" with the IG.

LT>IG and MJJ.

Merlyn
beyonder said puma could've killed him..
http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062284_puma1.jpg

shifty

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Goodness.

It said if he was left unchecked he would become God. God in the same way Thanos was "God" with the IG.

LT>IG and MJJ. ok ok ok whatever


but theres also this part just before the fury vs MJJ616 fight

it says MJJ is god messed (then it says he makes friends easily and then he creates a few friends)



anyway

explain this : if MJJ was omniversal threat then why didn't living tribunal intervene ? (thats his job right?)

explanatian simple : LT is below MJJ (unless you got other explanation ) confused

Galan007
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
explanatian simple : LT is below MJJ (unless you got other explanation ) confused Ehh, being omniscient LT knew Fury would ultimately end MJJ's rampage - thus, there was no reason for him to get involved?

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Galan007
Ehh, being omniscient LT knew Fury would ultimately end MJJ's rampage - thus, there was no reason for him to get involved? k i didnt think of that smile

namorsubby
isn't classic beyonder simply the most powerful ever?

saw it on a thread title.lol

guy222
Stalemate

Plain and simple

Beyonder was all back in the day

MoM is the all for Image

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
ok ok ok whatever


but theres also this part just before the fury vs MJJ616 fight

it says MJJ is god messed (then it says he makes friends easily and then he creates a few friends)

You mean when Jaspers says he created everything? The birds and the bees, the lion and the lamb and what not?

He was referring to everything within his warp. Yeah, he's God within his warp.






Goodness. People use this arguement with HoM Wanda.

This was all explained back during the Infinity Gauntlet saga. The LT intervenes only when you try and mess with the natural order. Thanos sought only to become God of the 616 Universe i.e. he wanted to become Eternity. LT stated that since Thanos sought only to replace their importance in the Universe with his own, no crime had been commited. Survival of the fittest, strong prey upon the weak and so on.

The same arguement can be made as to why the LT didn't step in with MJJ since all MJJ did was replace Eternity with himself.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Goodness. People use this arguement with HoM Wanda.

This was all explained back during the Infinity Gauntlet saga. The LT intervenes only when you try and mess with the natural order. Thanos sought only to become God of the 616 Universe i.e. he wanted to become Eternity. LT stated that since Thanos sought only to replace their importance in the Universe with his own, no crime had been commited. Survival of the fittest, strong prey upon the weak and so on.

The same arguement can be made as to why the LT didn't step in with MJJ since all MJJ did was replace Eternity with himself. yeah but if MJJ was gonna **** up the omniverse that's also messin with the natural order right ? huh



I mean he intervenes when that chick wants to rule the omniverse with the starbrand

and he intervenes when Adam Warlock gets the IG
he says that Warlock is insane (but MJJ is also insane he's mad!!!)

Knowsbleed33
At that point MJJ wasn't close to affecting the entire omniverse. There would've been a point where the LT's hand would've been forced and he would've ended the threat right there.

id369
If you believe, that my definition of omnipotence extends to characters such as Vegito. Then there is nothing I can do for you, since you are misinterpreting my definition.



Its as reverent as you brining up, our run ins in Naruto forum. I just wanted to let you know, I do know who you are, and it means vary little to me.


Spawn #166
The comic acknowledges, Man of Miracles to be the mother of all creation.





And this is when I stop replying to any of your posts. Thank you for taking your time, to greet us with your definition of omnipotence.

But really I could care less, how you tie in fiction, philosophy, and personal belief.



Ah perfect. Well Spawn Bible, #2 will be released shortly. It will update all the entries up to 2008, plus various one shots, etc…If its not plainly obvious that MoM is/isn’t its Omnipotent Entity. Then, hopefully it will be clarified, or add more to your confusion.

El Sexican - Id

id369
Originally posted by Mr Master
Beyonder was (not anymore) the be all end all Omnipotent GOD of the Beyond Realm.
Then Beyonder entered the Marvelverse,
and became the Supreme power of that Actuality,
with absolute control over all reality, heck, his thoughts were reality.

MoM doesn't take jack, at best, for the sake of argument, MoM stalemates.

FACT: Beyonder was the most powerful being ever to exist in the Marvel Universe.

That's actually a literal quote from classic Beyonder's 1985 bio.

I don't think you understand either friend, Beyonder's power was implied.
There was no higher power for a character to obtain, or be establish as;
Beyonder was the legitimate absolute force behind the Beyond Realm/Marvelverse.

So what will you do?

Deny what the comics state, and depicted? (On Panel and in Handbooks)

Love for you to show us what writer devalued Beyonder's true Omnipotence.

In fact, the Writer/Creator of the Secret Wars labelled Beyonder ... GOD!
In fact, he even labelled Beyonder, GOD,
before the concept of God entered Human imagination.

I'm all eyes.

Same could be said about your unsupported statements concerning the Beyonder.

Ah its not a cosmic debate if Friend isn’t here.

I have a question Friend. Does Beyonder predate TOAA?

skygunner41
This is what happen when we tried to grasp the concept of GOD.

Astner
Originally posted by id369
If you believe, that my definition of omnipotence extends to characters such as Vegito. Then there is nothing I can do for you, since you are misinterpreting my definition.

You misunderstood completely. What I was trying to say was that, what I was trying to tell you was that titles are completely irrelevant.

In a "World's Funnest Mr. Mxyztplk vs Lord of Nightmares" thread the ones arguing for Mr. Mxyzptlk would be the ones that are right, because Mr. Mxyzptlk have done more of quality in that one comic than L-sama have done throughout the entire Slayer series.

Lets say I post the pages where Mr. Mxyzptlk destroyed "All time-lines, all alternate realities and all dimensions." Followed by the statement "L-sama haven't done anything remotely close to that."

And then a member with an opposing view argues for that she could have done that if she wanted to because she is omnipotent.

But the burden of proof lies on the one purposing the suggestion. So first the member have to prove that L-sama is omnipotent by feats--which he can't--since there's always a greater feat.
Which leads to that he will have to concede on that claim. And since she haven't done anything greater than what Mr. Mxyzptlk was showing he'll have to concede there too.

Now this is a bit far fetched, since we know that L-sama isn't omnipotent (by your definition) as she had problems getting rid of Hellmaster Phibrizzo.

So when an author states that one (or a few) of his characters is omnipotent, do like with anyone else and judge them by their feats--as you don't know what definition the author applied.

Originally posted by id369
Its as reverent as you brining up, our run ins in Naruto forum. I just wanted to let you know, I do know who you are, and it means vary little to me.

I simply wanted to shorten the debate by mentioning the source. And no, I'm not trying to be anonymous--since there's no point. Does it really matter who says what as long as the message is the same? I think not, only 1337-trolls do.

Originally posted by id369
And this is when I stop replying to any of your posts. Thank you for taking your time, to greet us with your definition of omnipotence.

But really I could care less, how you tie in fiction, philosophy, and personal belief.
Apparently you didn't read my post to begin with. Not once have I defined omnipotence. What I did try though was identify it as an illogical fallacy.

SouthSpawn
MoM FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

occultdestroyer
Man of Miracles wins.

MoM was never retconned.

He remains the "true" God of Imageverse, forever and always.

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by id369
I have a question Friend. Does Beyonder predate TOAA? basically classic beyonder is TOAA

occultdestroyer
Classic Beyonder is no more.

Man of Miracles FTW

Mindset
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Classic Beyonder is no more.

Man of Miracles FTW It depends on where you are in the timestream

occultdestroyer
Still, Classic Beyonder would not be able to defeat the "true" God of Image.

MoM would know that Classic Beyonder was destined to be retconned.

Even if it took an eternity for this battle to last, MoM would sooner or later win.

Mindset
Something can't take an eternity if there is eventually an end.

SoulDevourer
there is something at the end of eternity

Mindset
Originally posted by SoulDevourer
there is something at the end of eternity Eternity has no end, that is why it's eternity.

shokosugi
man of miracles is friggin JC!

Mindset
Originally posted by shokosugi
man of miracles is friggin JC! John Cena?

SoulDevourer
Originally posted by Mindset
Eternity has no end, that is why it's eternity. nope nope your wrong it has an end

heres whats at the end of eternity (are you ready to face the cosmic revelation?):
"y" ^_^

Enyalus
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Classic Beyonder is no more.

Man of Miracles FTW

That's your ****ing argument? Get that shit outta here. The thread states 'Classic Beyonder' and that's what is used. The fact that he was retconned by the Marvel editor-in-chief has no bearing on this fight.

Stalemate at best.

Mindset
Originally posted by Enyalus
That's your ****ing argument? Get that shit outta here. The thread states 'Classic Beyonder' and that's what is used. The fact that he was retconned by the Marvel editor-in-chief has no bearing on this fight.

Stalemate at best. Whenever I'm alone with you, you make me feel like I am whole again.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Mindset
Whenever I'm alone with you, you make me feel like I am whole again.

I wish I didn't know what you're referencing. Sadly, that isn't the case.

Mindset
You don't like The Cure?

Enyalus
Originally posted by Mindset
You don't like The Cure?

For H.I.V.? Absolutely. It's why I keep it to myself.

Mindset
What save you from my hiv, sorry.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Mindset
Eternity has no end, that is why it's eternity.
Oblivion.

Mindset
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Oblivion. You should probably look up these words before you use them...

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Mindset
You should probably look up these words before you use them...
I thought when Eternity and all the abstracts die, Oblivion is the only one left
durquanchi

Mindset
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
I thought when Eternity and all the abstracts die, Oblivion is the only one left
durquanchi You realize your usage of eternity was the word and not the comic character, right?

Enyalus
Originally posted by Mindset
You realize your usage of eternity was the word and not the comic character, right?

laughing out loud

Nice...

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Mindset
You realize your usage of eternity was the word and not the comic character, right?
Twas for teh lulz, hence teh smiley.

Mindset
ok

ThunderGodEneru
Originally posted by Mindset
John Cena? ........

haermm

shokosugi
John Candy

Southern_Rebel
Man of Miracles ftw

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