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I think people got a little off topic in my last post about Maul. If he was cut off like Anakin in Star by Star, whould he emerge the victor? The Yuuzhan Vong never faced a Force user that used the double blade lightsaber and teras kasi. I'm talking about the Maul that flew into such a rage that Sidious had to use the Force to save his skin or end up carved into pieces.

If a scenario like that happened, I do believe he would massacre the Vong if he flew into a rage. Even Shimmra would have serious difficulty defeating Maul. Opinions anyone? Again please stay on topic.

by the way, my favorite Sith is Revan - I just couldn't find a pic of him

What was the point of remaking this thread?
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I'm talking about the Maul that flew into such a rage that Sidious had to use the Force to save his skin or end up carved into pieces.Sidious never used the Force, IIRC, and he was using a training saber the entire time. He goaded Maul into a blind rage as the final test of his loaylty to the Sith; Maul needed to be willing to kill his master, and in that moment he proved he could be.

Palpatine's life was never in danger.

People got off topic

^That happens fairly often but we don't make repeat threads.

Welcome to KMC; threads get off topic. We do not use that as an excuse to create new threads with the same damn topic. What's next, part three?

No, Shimrra would probably not have intense difficulty fighting Maul. He managed to threaten an uber-Jedi-meld-using Luke Skywalker, who just hacked away an army of Yuuzhan Vong. Maul's a beast, but he's not that good.

Putting Maul against Vong warriors though would be a good one. Put a double-bladed/Teras Kasi wielding Dark Sider into Ganner's position.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, Shimrra would probably not have intense difficulty fighting Maul. He managed to threaten an uber-Jedi-meld-using Luke Skywalker, who just hacked away an army of Yuuzhan Vong.I doubt a battle-meld works when two of the three participants are out cold; Jaina had been driven into the floor by Onimi, and Jacen had just taken a backhand from Shimrra. This was a lone, tired, heavily wounded Luke that Shimrra was up against.

And prove that a "Jedi-meld" was "uber," noob.

Originally posted by Faunus
I doubt a battle-meld works when two of the three participants are out cold; Jaina had been driven into the floor by Onimi, and Jacen had just taken a backhand from Shimrra.

True, but it did work prior. Face it, Skywalker's feats were far from being that of his own energies and skill.



Bullshit. Don't give me the "lone, tired, fatigued and heavily wounded Luke" spiel. Count Dooku was battling two capable Jedi Knights, on the verge of exhaustion, and still found that brief second to summon Force energies to make the "weight of his years fall away" -- simple rejuvenation. Unless it is your contention that Count Dooku possesses greater reserves of Force energy than Luke Skywalker supplemented by the Jedi meld with Jaina and Jacen Solo, I don't think you mean to go down that route. Hell, Palpatine was a sixty-year-old man who hadn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade, and he managed to go toe-to-toe with four of the most accomplished and celebrated swordsmen alive (a couple of whom were well regarded duelists throughout the Order's history), eventually being disarmed by Master Windu -- and despite the fact that Palpatine was on his ass, unarmed, and being blasted in the face with Force lightning (and Windu had greater leverage, size, mass, and the advantages of a lightsaber and the metaphysical properties of Vaapad), Palpatine was faking fatigue. He could have continued his lightning assault; Windu couldn't. Is it your contention that Palpatine is also in possession of Force reserves exceeding that of a Luke Skywalker supplemented by a Jedi meld with Jaina and Jacen Solo?

And while he fought through an army of Yuuzhan Vong, I'm not impressed. Starkiller hacked through numerous levels of Imperial armament, grappling with AT-STs, trained Force assassins, and AT-ATs (all of which are far greater than basic Yuuzhan Vong infantry) and then managed to kick Vader's ass before fighting the Emperor. And he did that alone.

The only wounds that Luke suffered were from Shimrra himself; his chest was crushed due to the amphistaff, which subsequently poisoned him.











-- all from the Essential Guide to the Force, page 79.

And now for the coup de grace...



-- From the Essential Guide to the Force, page 80.

With respect Faunus, it's a dead argument. Much of NJO Luke's performance during his assault on Shimrra's citadel was the product of an enormously powerful battlemeld with two highly revered duelists and Force users. His only credit is that he defeated Shimrra, the mightiest Yuuzhan Vong warrior, but he did so with extreme difficulty.

And I rest my case. The notion that NJO Luke is the greatest ever has finally, finally, been defeated.

how exactly doe sthe battle meld work? wookieepedia says

Force Meld, otherwise known as Jedi meld or Battle meld, was a technique where a number of Force users joined their minds together through the Force, drawing strength from each other. A refinement of battle meditation, it was known to the ancient Jedi, though dangerous. While Battle meditation could influence both the Force-sensitives and the insensitives of both sides, Force Meld concentrates on coordinating and improving the Force-sensitives of the user's side.

it says they draw strength from each other. but why would Luke need to draw strength from jaina or jacen? it's like you said he has more force reserves than they would so he wouldn't essentially need to draw strength from either of them.

but I really don't know a whole lot about how the meld works .

Because he likely felt that one lone Jedi -- no matter how powerful -- couldn't hack through multiple levels of Vong-infested Citadel space to confront Shimrra.

Maul would kill Shimraa with little difficulty. The Luke-Shimraa fight was hardly fair and it didn't take much from Luke to kill Shimraa in the end.

Maul is much quicker, skilled and would smash Shimraa with few difficulties however if he were caught in the same situation Luke found himself in the Unifying Force he would likely get killed.

Originally posted by Gideon
Because he likely felt that one lone Jedi -- no matter how powerful -- couldn't hack through multiple levels of Vong-infested Citadel space to confront Shimrra.

well I could say the same thing that he felt that no jedi, no matter how powerful, could hack through all of them so why not let jaina and jacen, two accomplished jedi, go with him drawing strength from his own reserves of the force.

pretty much it could be inferred that he wanted them to draw off of his power, when theres wouldn't be enough, to get the job done

Aren't we jumping to conclusions when we say that you could draw on each other's force reserve during a battle-meld? "Jedi can draw on one another's strength for support". "Battlemind permits a group of Jedi to become stronger than if each stood alone" are somewhat ambiguous.

In addition this quote regarding Jacen: "Having killed three of his assailants, he was facing only one opponent, but his energy was beginning to flag. It was not fatigue born of fear of going to the dark side, but simple exhaustion, and Shimrra was moving in", makes it clear that he was tired but did not make use of the force to revitalize himself. It could be that there wasn't enough force energy left in their reserve except that thereafter Luke drew "deeply" in the force when he used the supposed emerald lightning technique so they must have had a good chunk of force energy left.

But that's just my two cents worth and i might know less about the melds then poppunker does. And Gideon if you don't think NJO Luke is the greatest combatant ever who do you believe it is also does this opinion disregard future Lukes?

No.



Yes, it was.

Actually, from a certain perspective, it wasn't. Jacen attempted to aid Luke when he was grappling the Supreme Overlord, but was knocked unconscious.

By the way, Sith and Yuuzhan Vong tend to fight dirty; they're pragmatists.



If you consider a crushed chest and being nearly poisoned to death as "not much."



What the hell does that have to do with what I said? You asked why Luke would need to draw strength from his niece and nephew, and I said because he probably felt that no lone Jedi (him) could waltz into the heart of the Yuuzhan Vong territory and come out alive. They drew strength off of one another, not just them from Luke.

If he could have done it by himself, he wouldn't have taken them with him, simple as that. But he couldn't, so he did.



No it isn't. "Battlemeld permits a group of Jedi to become stronger than if each stood alone." -- page 79. That's straightforward. They were stronger.



Let me rephrase. He may be the greatest combatant ever, but it is by hairs at best. He has peers and those who demonstrate greater strength in certain areas.



Not necessarily. But even then, Luke gets his ass handed to him by Lumiya.

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

Yes.

Originally posted by Gideon
Actually, from a certain perspective, it wasn't. Jacen attempted to aid Luke when he was grappling the Supreme Overlord, but was knocked unconscious. .

Hardly Jacen was already fatigued, you know... mowing down several Vong before hand and having to fight gravity at the same time, gravity that was being controlled by Shimraa at will before he was forced to engage the two Jedi.

Jacen was a non factor his physical condition prevented him from being a factor.


Originally posted by Gideon
If you consider a crushed chest and being nearly poisoned to death as "not much."

That was an accumulation of all that happened, the battalion of Vong soldiers killed before hand. Fighting Shimraa's elite on a rigged platform whose gravity was being manipulated by Shimraa even as Luke fought for his life against several warriors at once.

Shimraa's participation was brief and it ended with Luke killing him with the first good swing of his lightsaber. A fatigued Luke at that.

All in all Luke spent very little energy eliminating Shimraa one on one. Under fair/even conditions Maul would totally outclass Shimraa.

Originally posted by Gideon


What the hell does that have to do with what I said? You asked why Luke would need to draw strength from his niece and nephew, and I said because he probably felt that no lone Jedi (him) could waltz into the heart of the Yuuzhan Vong territory and come out alive. They drew strength off of one another, not just them from Luke.


First I was stating that Luke wouldn't ever need to draw strength from his niece or nephew why would he his power is way above theirs?

second I was trying to say that Luke couldn't do it alone thats why he had jaina and jacen along and through his power reserves would boost their abilities giving them better odds.

where is it stated that Luke drew power off of them It just doesn't seem like he would ever need to, it makes more sense for them to leech off of him like emperors hands did with Palpatine.

Originally posted by Gideon
No it isn't. "Battlemeld permits a group of Jedi to become stronger than if each stood alone." -- page 79. That's straightforward. They were stronger. .

hmm i was discrediting the fact that a meld allowed Jedi to share force reserves. When i called stronger ambiguous i meant that being stronger could mean other things that are not amplified skill and force energy- such as increased perceptions, battle awareness, and reactions (the things jaina listed). Kinda like how battle meditation is said to make your allies stronger and your enemies weaker but in a jedi/sith's case you dont lose/gain skill or force energy. BTW i saw that correction on the mistake you made the first time you used that quote .


Originally posted by Gideon
may be the greatest combatant ever, but it is by hairs at best. He has peers and those who demonstrate greater strength in certain areas..

Thought you might wanna clear this up.