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I have no clue on this one, but I do know there would be many would be assimilated. Include the Yuuzhan Vong, Empire, etc etc. Opinions?

because the borg can make the most noobish of enemies into skilled warriors who can adapt to be protected by most weaponry, the borg soon have millions on their side, enough to outnumber pretty much any threat.

unless a death star blows it up

One of my favorite threads here: All of Star Wars vs All of Star Star Trek:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=& amp;threadid=335025highlight=all+of+star+wars+vs+a
ll+of+star+trek+forumid%3A6

Star Wars stomp. The Empire alone could take the Federation (easily) and the Federation has been able (during ST:Voyager) to contend militarily with the Borg. By dint of ABC logic the Empire wins. I'll come up with a few numbers if you want me to, but my master's site would make it much more clear.



The Galactic Empire takes this.

And then there's Palpatine...

One Imperial class Star Destroyer would vaporize a Borg Cube.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
One Imperial class Star Destroyer would vaporize a Borg Cube.

Fact.

Also fact: the Death Star would vaporize any number of hives (series Finale Voyager) or cubes or hypercubes or what have you that the Borg try to come up with.

Also Fact: Star Wars's Energy Output is massively greater than Star Trek. Not only are their lasers more powerful, their ships are faster (Hyperdrive >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warp Drive) and more maneuverable.

A few of the moderates I've spoken to are insistent on Star Trek's speed and range superiority. Course their examples contradict them brilliantly.

Stardestroyer.net?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Star Wars stomp. The Empire alone could take the Federation (easily) and the Federation has been able (during ST:Voyager) to contend militarily with the Borg. By dint of ABC logic the Empire wins. I'll come up with a few numbers if you want me to, but my master's site would make it much more clear.



The Galactic Empire takes this.

Jesus, it seems everyone has a master these days.

It's a gay new fad started by gay new people.

Wait.

Speaking of the Borg, EU has supplied that a Sith Lord named Belia Darzu used a 'techno-virus' to turn her followers into lobotomized cyborg warriors, who could then spread the virus to their enemies and effectively recruit them... yes, EU ripped off the Borg sort of.

Stardestroyer.net is not a reliable source at all. Its a fanboy site nothing more. Anyway Trek ships are far faster in normal space and more manevarable. Full impulse is 25% the speed of light.

So wait, you say that SD.net is not a reliable source at all, then go on to spout "facts" without backing them up at all?

Give me a break.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
So wait, you say that SD.net is not a reliable source at all, then go on to spout "facts" without backing them up at all?

Give me a break. watch the star wars films. The canon site for the new Trek film puts full impulse at 25% the speed of light.

A Death Star w/ 1,000,000+ Troopers, land/sea various aircraft, fighters, and two Sith ords in Palpatine and Vader is not a good thing for any ship in TrekUniverse.

Originally posted by playa1258
watch the star wars films.
You can't judge the speed in the SW films (or ST probably) to be what you see, hell based on what know Yoda (and others such as Made Windu) from the novels he is moving as a "blur" or "faster then eye could follow" but you can't show that on screen.

Originally posted by playa1258
Stardestroyer.net is not a reliable source at all. Its a fanboy site nothing more.
Nothing it says is actually wrong, so the fact that you disagree with is (especially without backing up your assertion that it is off base) shows you to be the only one with a bias in this situation. Do you have any proof that any of Wong's points are off base?
Originally posted by playa1258

Anyway Trek ships are far faster in normal space and more manevarable. Full impulse is 25% the speed of light.

Star Wars ships are faster in 'non-real space' and they also have interdictors, which make the Warp Drive useless.

In tactical engagements, which occur in what you have so cleverly called 'normal space' the Empire (Star Wars) uses vastly different tactics than does the Federation. The Federation has only medium sized capital ships, none of which will be able to touch a star destroyer. The Federation's ships' speed in relation to that of the Empire's capital ships is irrelevant anyway because it is the fighters that would be causing the most damage.

The Federation's point defense system would do well against the swarm tactics of the Empire's fighters, but it would render them vulnerable to the big guns of the Capital Ships. Turbolasers have been shown to target corvettes (ANH) so they are very accurate. The Federation's evasive capacity consists of beggining a slow curve away from the enemy. When Picard (or, for that matter Janeway) issued an order to begin evasive action, the only movement seen is a small, gradual change in course. The Empire's gunners, accustomed to shooting at fast moving fighters will tear the Federation apart.

In summation: SD isn't invalid "just 'cause." There has to be a reason that it isn't valid, other than the fact that you disagree with the logical outcome of analyzing the facts. Star Wars's (and especially the Empire's) battle capacity simply outclasses that of the Federation.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Nothing it says is actually wrong, so the fact that you disagree with is (especially without backing up your assertion that it is off base) shows you to be the only one with a bias in this situation. Do you have any proof that any of Wong's points are off base?


Star Wars ships are faster in 'non-real space' and they also have interdictors, which make the Warp Drive useless.

In tactical engagements, which occur in what you have so cleverly called 'normal space' the Empire (Star Wars) uses vastly different tactics than does the Federation. The Federation has only medium sized capital ships, none of which will be able to touch a star destroyer. The Federation's ships' speed in relation to that of the Empire's capital ships is irrelevant anyway because it is the fighters that would be causing the most damage.

The Federation's point defense system would do well against the swarm tactics of the Empire's fighters, but it would render them vulnerable to the big guns of the Capital Ships. Turbolasers have been shown to target corvettes (ANH) so they are very accurate. The Federation's evasive capacity consists of beggining a slow curve away from the enemy. When Picard (or, for that matter Janeway) issued an order to begin evasive action, the only movement seen is a small, gradual change in course. The Empire's gunners, accustomed to shooting at fast moving fighters will tear the Federation apart.

In summation: SD isn't invalid "just 'cause." There has to be a reason that it isn't valid, other than the fact that you disagree with the logical outcome of analyzing the facts. Star Wars's (and especially the Empire's) battle capacity simply outclasses that of the Federation. Indeed. I think the Empire just outclasses the Feds in every way just like you said. They have far more resources,industrial capacity and better tech. In treks favor is faster speed in normal space and better capacity to adapt. The Empire wins

lol i thought u were arguing for star trek universe..

and idk anything about star trek. except that I watched like 5 min. of one movie. xD

Originally posted by kotorfan
lol i thought u were arguing for star trek universe..

and idk anything about star trek. except that I watched like 5 min. of one movie. xD I won't be a big as a stomp as people think.

Originally posted by playa1258
I won't be a big as a stomp as people think.

No, it would be bigger.

I'm more of a fan of Star Wars than Star Trek, but can someone explain the difference between a photon, quantum and a proton torpedo? What's the difference between metaphasic shields and SW shields? Phasers and turbolaser - differences? Warp Drive, which is faster than light travel and don't forget transwarp. Star Trek ships can fire torpedoes during faster than light travel. ST and SW cloaking devices? Someone help me out with the science cause I majored in history.

Someone made a mention about ST ships about being not as manevarable and only able to handle TIE fighters. Does anyone remember the USS Defiant? The Defiant was designed to fight the Borg. Everyone focuses on the Enterprise-E which irritates me because nobody pays attention to the class of ship and it's capablities. The Federation towards the end of the Dominion War were building warships: namingly the Akira and Defiant classes. The Enterprise - E which was a Sovereign class vessel was a hybrid - a warship/exploration and could take a beating due to it's armor and shields.

But don't forget the Romulan Scimitar

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I'm more of a fan of Star Wars than Star Trek, but can someone explain the difference between a photon, quantum and a proton torpedo? What's the difference between metaphasic shields and SW shields? Phasers and turbolaser - differences? Warp Drive, which is faster than light travel and don't forget transwarp. Star Trek ships can fire torpedoes during faster than light travel. ST and SW cloaking devices? Someone help me out with the science cause I majored in history.

I'll answer tomorrow. Here's hoping for a deferred double post!

The Star Wars Universe would completely own the Star Trek Universe. I base this opinion on absolutely nothing since I know shit about Star Trek.

However, most of the intelligent people in here seem to agree with my baseless opinion, so.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
The Star Wars Universe would completely own the Star Trek Universe. I base this opinion on absolutely nothing since I know shit about Star Trek.

However, most of the intelligent people in here seem to agree with my baseless opinion, so. The Star Trek universe has Q. Q could solo the whole Star Wars universe. If its just a military battle, then yeah Star Wars wins. Star Wars will have some casualties

I said to my friend that species-wise, Star Trek wins by default. Any other field belongs to Star Wars. Although I still don't know how it would fair against the entire Borg collective.

and the douwd...a single douwd destroyed 50 billion husnock (the entire species) with a single thought.

if you're doing it in military terms then you have to actually watch the movies to see how powerful the empire is...or isn't as is actually the case....when the millenium falcon comes out of hyperspace and into the debri field left of alderaan there is a discussion between him and obi-wan when obi-wan says that the empire destroyed it...han says "that's impossible...it would take a thousand star destroyers"

implying that the empire don't have a thousand star destroyers

between the borg, the dominion, species 8472, the cardassians, the federation, the klingon empire, the romulan star empire, the breen and many other extremely powerful races each bringing between hundreds and hundreds of thousands of ships of massively varying technologies

if you want to go by size as an indication of a vessels power

star destroyer 1600m L...1100m W
enterprise D (next gen) 642.5m L...467m W
borg cube...3000m in all dimensions
reman schimitar 890m L...1350m W

in terms of the largest pieces of technology built by in either universe

starwars: death star...size of a small moon
startrek: dyson's sphere...completely encirles an entire star at a large enough distance the people can live in the inside of the sphere.
starwars: eye of palpatine...19000m

Lol the Republic would stomp anything from the star trek universe. If they invaded during the clone wars it would be a rape stomp. Lets not even begin to talk about supernatural beings. What will Q do when Lord Nihilus rips the life force from his body...nothing accept die a horrible death. The Borg may adapt, but the Star Wars weapons have multiple settings, the Star Wars people will annihilate them, the largest government consists of a quadrant of the galaxy, when Voyager was stranded, it would have taken YEARS to get back from half way across the Galaxy. Star Wars ships travel across the Galaxy in a matter of hours, may be a couple of days tops. The Star Wars would stomp the borg into oblivion

Originally posted by jaden101


if you're doing it in military terms then you have to actually watch the movies to see how powerful the empire is...or isn't as is actually the case....when the millenium falcon comes out of hyperspace and into the debri field left of alderaan there is a discussion between him and obi-wan when obi-wan says that the empire destroyed it...han says "that's impossible...it would take a thousand star destroyers" Have you even seen the movie? Han says "...half the starfleet with more fire power than I've--", not "1000 Star Destroyers." And we're taking into account all EU as well, not just the movies.


And Mizukage, until we have some clear and definitive statistics and references for Nihilus and his abiltities, stop Deus ex Machina-ing him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol the Republic would stomp anything from the star trek universe. If they invaded during the clone wars it would be a rape stomp. Lets not even begin to talk about supernatural beings. What will Q do when Lord Nihilus rips the life force from his body...nothing accept die a horrible death. The Borg may adapt, but the Star Wars weapons have multiple settings, the Star Wars people will annihilate them, the largest government consists of a quadrant of the galaxy, when Voyager was stranded, it would have taken YEARS to get back from half way across the Galaxy. Star Wars ships travel across the Galaxy in a matter of hours, may be a couple of days tops. The Star Wars would stomp the borg into oblivion yes the republic would stomp anybody in trek short of the borg or species 8472. Now Nihilus stands no chance against the Q. Q is a god-like character who has basically limitless power. Let me guess your one of those retards from SD.net that has Han Solo and Chewbecca beating the Q. Or Vader beating Superman

Are you suggesting that Han Solo and Chewbacca can lose? They killed off Chewy because they knew that there was no reasonable way for Han and Chewy to ever lose a fight, and a moon was only able to kill one of them.

Originally posted by jaden101
implying that the empire don't have a thousand star destroyers

I can't give you an exact number or estimation of the(some one here may know) number of imperial star destroyers (the main variant in the OT) in the imperial fleet but are you aware of the fact that the imperial navy has more ships variants than just the standard star destroyer you see in the films.


There were more navies around at the same time as the Galactic Empire, there was the Hapes Consortium, the Chiss Ascendancy,Yuuzhan Vong, The Rebellion, Ssi-ruuvi Imperium,Vagaari Empire then there were more species/governments in the unknown regions, and maybe other independent fleets such as Corellia's. I'm just saying that Empire and the rebellion weren't the only ones with a navy during the OT saga era which seems to be the point your trying to make by using the Empire as your example of SW navies.


Centerpoint station(350,000 m )> Eye of Palpatine (190,000m,exact number isn't given.) in size.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What will Q do when Lord Nihilus rips the life force from his body...nothing accept die a horrible death.
Q snaps his fingers and Nihilus isn't there. Q>Nihilus since he is basically a god and he isn't the only one of his kind. Species wise Star Trek is superior with their natural abilities.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I'm more of a fan of Star Wars than Star Trek, but can someone explain the difference between a photon, quantum and a proton torpedo?
Out of Universe:
Similarities: All use scientific terms (incorrectly I might add) to explain some sort of explosion.
Differences: They probably give different yields (explosive power).

In Universe:
-Photon/Quantum torpedo: Federation Tech. Photon Torpedoes are essentially matter/antimatter explosions. The entry for Quantum torpedoes in the ST wiki was essentially a long string of pseudoscientific technobabble. The gist of it was that they pulled energy from a different (higher? probably something to do with string theory) dimension through a zero energy field which makes an explosion for some reason. Presumably it is a bigger explosion than the Photon torpedoes.
-Proton Torpedo: Empire (or at least SW) tech. Proton torpedoes look like they use some sort of fusion or fission reaction like contemporary nuclear weapons. The yield is likely to be much, much higher than weapons today though.

Analysis: All three are pretty much unknowns, although SD.net seems to suggest that Proton torpedoes are superior (though not by much). The disparity in missile ordinance (for either side- remember that we don't know which is truly superior) will most likely not make much of a difference in a confrontation.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

What's the difference between metaphasic shields and SW shields?
The mechanics of deflector shields are not specified on the ST wiki, nor are SW shields specified in wookeepedia. The gist of each is that they block matter or high energy beams (lasers) from entering the area that they protect. This is important both in and out of combat. Besides the obvious advantage of protection in combat, shields also allow navigation high speeds in space: without shields even a micrometeor could be disastrous at high velocities.

As far as relative power, I am convinced that SW has the advantage in this category. Turbolasers > Phasers, at least when comparing the amount of energy present/delivered to the target. ST shields are able to take only a few minutes of phaser bombardment. Turbolasers are more powerful than the phasers they correspond to, so the Fed's shields will be destroyed even faster than normal. Defensive edge & firepower edge both go to the Empire.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Phasers and turbolaser - differences?
Turbolaser: spinning bolt of gas/plasma fired at very high speeds- the energy is transferred directly to object.
Phaser: beam of photon-like particles that set up a chain reaction in the target that causes damage. The only available suggest that turbolasers are superior.


Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Warp Drive, which is faster than light travel and don't forget transwarp.
I'm not sure about transwarp (which is something like Warp^3) but normal warp drive creates a "warp bubble" to separate the ship from the "normal universe" that excludes it from the laws of relativity. It is a very slow means of travel: The maximum velocity recorded (that I'm aware of) is ~Warp 14, or 14 times the speed of light. (c). Hyperdrive is a much more effective method: it actually enters a separate dimension (maybe?) and does the traveling in a region where movement seems much less dependant upon Einstienian laws. Hyperdrive allows travel at up to 1 million times the speed of light- permitting travel across the galaxy in days or hours, instead of the years and decades it would take for conventional warp technology.

Advantage: Star Wars

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Star Trek ships can fire torpedoes during faster than light travel.
Warp straffing is only rarely used, indicating that it must have some drawbacks. I'll have to look into this more. As it is: Advantage- Star Trek

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
ST and SW cloaking devices?
Again, I'd have to look for an example of a corresponding tech in SW. Advantage: Trek, with reservations. Remember that Trek Ships can't fire while cloaked. That severely limits their effectiveness in combat.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Someone help me out with the science cause I majored in history.

The easy out is that it isn't science, but rather pseudo science. Put simply, none of the prefixes affixed to ordinary materials, misunderstood quantum mechanics, or even misapplied terminology (parsec? anyone?) can be truly explained: ST and SW both use barely understood concepts to achieve impossible feats (zero point energy? 11th dimensional space? Warp/hyper drive? none of these are truly based in scientific facts).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol the Republic would stomp anything from the star trek universe. If they invaded during the clone wars it would be a rape stomp. Lets not even begin to talk about supernatural beings. What will Q do when Lord Nihilus rips the life force from his body...nothing accept die a horrible death. The Borg may adapt, but the Star Wars weapons have multiple settings, the Star Wars people will annihilate them, the largest government consists of a quadrant of the galaxy, when Voyager was stranded, it would have taken YEARS to get back from half way across the Galaxy. Star Wars ships travel across the Galaxy in a matter of hours, may be a couple of days tops. The Star Wars would stomp the borg into oblivion

you are blinded by your fanboyism boy




actual quote from the film



thus stating that they don't even have a 1000 ships.

so shut it



dyson's sphere...if the star in it was the same size as the earth and and the sphere was the same distance as the earth is from the star then it'd be somewhere in the region of about 300,000,000,000,000m

then there's in technology and weapons such as the thaelaron radiation weapon of the reman schimitar...the omega particle, the Q guns which caused supernova yet were hand held weapons.

apart from that last point i would say that if it went down to land battles then the starwars universe would have it...they have a far more diverse array of weapons and mounted guns than in star trek...although how quickly the borg would adapt remains to be seen

i wonder if the borg shielding could adapt to lightsabres as well?...perhaps all sabres resonate at different frequencies due to the crystal and individual manufacture by each Jedi?

in general though, the empire star destroyers are all the same (standard ones anyway) so if the borg assimilated one they could adapt to fight all instantly.

perhaps something called the SUN CRUSHER would CRUSH the Star Trek universe.. lol

or perhaps not

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Out of Universe:
Similarities: All use scientific terms (incorrectly I might add) to explain some sort of explosion.
Differences: They probably give different yields (explosive power).

In Universe:
-Photon/Quantum torpedo: Federation Tech. Photon Torpedoes are essentially matter/antimatter explosions. The entry for Quantum torpedoes in the ST wiki was essentially a long string of pseudoscientific technobabble. The gist of it was that they pulled energy from a different (higher? probably something to do with string theory) dimension through a zero energy field which makes an explosion for some reason. Presumably it is a bigger explosion than the Photon torpedoes.
-Proton Torpedo: Empire (or at least SW) tech. Proton torpedoes look like they use some sort of fusion or fission reaction like contemporary nuclear weapons. The yield is likely to be much, much higher than weapons today though.

Analysis: All three are pretty much unknowns, although SD.net seems to suggest that Proton torpedoes are superior (though not by much). The disparity in missile ordinance (for either side- remember that we don't know which is truly superior) will most likely not make much of a difference in a confrontation.

The mechanics of deflector shields are not specified on the ST wiki, nor are SW shields specified in wookeepedia. The gist of each is that they block matter or high energy beams (lasers) from entering the area that they protect. This is important both in and out of combat. Besides the obvious advantage of protection in combat, shields also allow navigation high speeds in space: without shields even a micrometeor could be disastrous at high velocities.

As far as relative power, I am convinced that SW has the advantage in this category. Turbolasers > Phasers, at least when comparing the amount of energy present/delivered to the target. ST shields are able to take only a few minutes of phaser bombardment. Turbolasers are more powerful than the phasers they correspond to, so the Fed's shields will be destroyed even faster than normal. Defensive edge & firepower edge both go to the Empire.


Turbolaser: spinning bolt of gas/plasma fired at very high speeds- the energy is transferred directly to object.
Phaser: beam of photon-like particles that set up a chain reaction in the target that causes damage. The only available suggest that turbolasers are superior.



I'm not sure about transwarp (which is something like Warp^3) but normal warp drive creates a "warp bubble" to separate the ship from the "normal universe" that excludes it from the laws of relativity. It is a very slow means of travel: The maximum velocity recorded (that I'm aware of) is ~Warp 14, or 14 times the speed of light. (c). Hyperdrive is a much more effective method: it actually enters a separate dimension (maybe?) and does the traveling in a region where movement seems much less dependant upon Einstienian laws. Hyperdrive allows travel at up to 1 million times the speed of light- permitting travel across the galaxy in days or hours, instead of the years and decades it would take for conventional warp technology.

Advantage: Star Wars


Warp straffing is only rarely used, indicating that it must have some drawbacks. I'll have to look into this more. As it is: Advantage- Star Trek


Again, I'd have to look for an example of a corresponding tech in SW. Advantage: Trek, with reservations. Remember that Trek Ships can't fire while cloaked. That severely limits their effectiveness in combat.



The easy out is that it isn't science, but rather pseudo science. Put simply, none of the prefixes affixed to ordinary materials, misunderstood quantum mechanics, or even misapplied terminology (parsec? anyone?) can be truly explained: ST and SW both use barely understood concepts to achieve impossible feats (zero point energy? 11th dimensional space? Warp/hyper drive? none of these are truly based in scientific facts). warp drive is far faster then 14 times the speed of light. For example warp 9.99 the top speed of a Sovergein class starship is 7,912 times the speed of light. Hyperdrive is much faster with speeds measured in the millions of times c.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Again, I'd have to look for an example of a corresponding tech in SW. Advantage: Trek, with reservations. Remember that Trek Ships can't fire while cloaked. That severely limits their effectiveness in combat.

I'll try to answer this:

Star Wars tech does cloaking devices in its arsenal but I don't know if they are used as much as they are in ST, more or less.

The empire built cloaking devices for the following ships (as far as I know) for the tie phantoms, they were developing one for the Executor-class Star Dreadnought before Rouge Squadron destroyed it,Starkiller's Rouge Shadow had one,Darth Maul's Scimitar.

Grand Admiral Thrawn (Galacitc Empire/Imperial Remnant/ Empire of the Hand) was able able to cloak tie fighters and mole miners in the "Heir to the Empire" novel. Thrawn was also able to cloak asteroids as seen in "The Last Command"

The Criminal Warlord Tyber Zann was able some of his frigates. Though Zann's cloaking device would make the frigates shields malfunction.

The Galactic Alliance believe that the "dome structure" on Chiss Star destroyers have cloaking devices. They haven't confirmed it one way or the other but Jaina Solo who is a very experienced/accomplished fighter pilot believe they do.

Supposedly in The Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy game, the player goes to a planet to destroy it's cloaking device another jedi installed at some unknown time so that the Disciples of Ragnos didn't acquire it.

Some of the SW model cloaking devices works both ways so that the enemy can't see them or pick them up on sensors but the cloaked ship are in the same predicament. So its not that big of an advantage depending on the model.

This is sooooooooo stupid SW>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Star Trekx10. Better tech, better powers, cooler. Oh and @ Nihilus losing to Q, that is nonsense, you can't erase something that doesn't exist, Nihilus is a hole in the force, by all means should not exist. He will eat Q.

lets be honest...this is the only tool you've got in your armoury isn't it?...that, for some reason, starwars is cool and star trek is geeky

news for you...they're both geeky...especially so when you're using EU stuff in your arguments...even more so when it's from a turn based RPG

but lets examine what Q has done...he's transported the enterprise from one side of the galaxy to the other with the click of his fingers....he played hide and seek with a half human, half Q and told her that she, like him, has the ability to travel anywhere in the universe with a mere thought. he can instantly create matter in any form, he can move people wherever and whenever he likes...even taking picard back to the very moment life on earth was created.

he, and the continuum are immortal and have existed since before the beginning of the universe.

all that against a sith who got pwned by his own apprentice, a jedi padawan and a mandalorian.

ghey

In any SW/ST argument, the participants are automatically GEEK/NERDS. That's a given.

Also, in every SW/ST collision, Q will tip the balance. Maybe that's why the OP clearly states "BORG" rather than "Q continuum." Is there any doubt that Q > the totality of Force Users?

EDIT: Mizkalage: you suck. Please, please don't think that warping screens with comically dubious numbers of greater/less than signs makes you any better at life. No matter how many '<' signs you type, it won't make people like you more.

The moral of the story is that the '<' symbol is not a good coping mechanism for small genetailia.

I make room for the idea that Mizukage is just screwing around.

But, then again, tonight has shown me that people can reach surprisingly low levels of intellect.

Originally posted by Gideon
I make room for the idea that Mizukage is just screwing around.

But, then again, tonight has shown me that people can reach surprisingly low levels of intellect.

I'm sure he thinks that he is very funny. I just don't like it when I have to scroll to the right to finish a sentence. It really grinds my gears.

Shut up, Peter.

Peter?

The worst kind of insult. How he has gained so many fangirls is beyond me.

I wouldn't mind a few fangirls of my own...


If I was peter I'd get him back for the insult... except that I'm a pacifist. And taking it as an insult would magnify the insult itself... How would that work?

Besides: he was moderately BA tonight: he got to make ethically dubious decisions while maintaining the moral high ground. I love relative morality.
shhh! Don't let Knightfa11 find out!

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I wouldn't mind a few fangirls of my own...

I have the hottest fangirl in the world at the moment. The one and only problem is: she's kinda goth. Or punk. Or whatever you call it.

Originally posted by Gideon
I have the hottest fangirl in the world at the moment. The one and only problem is: she's kinda goth. Or punk. Or whatever you call it.

Tch. My girlfriend's hotter.

Originally posted by Gideon
I have the hottest fangirl in the world at the moment. The one and only problem is: she's kinda goth. Or punk. Or whatever you call it.

From what I've seen, she does look gothic. But she's hawt.

Originally posted by jaden101

actual quote from the film



thus stating that they don't even have a 1000 ships.

so shut it Mea culpa. Don't make it hostile. I haven't seen the film in a while. Still though, like all character in-story explanations, Han's word (of all words) is not taken immediately as canon. It's not canon at all in fact, since the height of the Empire only 4 years later saw 25,000 Star Destroyers in the Navy. Never mind the countless other frigates/support craft/fighter-carriers etc. And seeing how as it's the entire Empire we're talking about here...

Jaden's an idiot. Don't get me started. Check out his post to me in the Top 5 Best Guitarists thread.

Captain, she is mighty fine. Asked me out to prom last week.

She asked you out? Why wasn't it the other way around, mate?

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
She asked you out? Why wasn't it the other way around, mate?

She's kind've goth. Sweet Jesus H. Christ, it's impossible to understand. Not to mention that I'm a compulsive flirt. Last year's prom, I was all over everyone. Even danced all over my Video Production teacher.

LOL, I get you. And it's not the best thing to be a compulsive flirt when you have a girlfriend or you're dating someone. It just ****s things up.

Originally posted by Gideon
Jaden's an idiot. Don't get me started. Check out his post to me in the Top 5 Best Guitarists thread.

Captain, she is mighty fine. Asked me out to prom last week.

You're going to lose that debate, btw.

How is that, Blax?

"You argument=epic fail?" Wow, what a child.

AC reminds me a lot of Nebaris. And neither of them ever stop...

Did Nebaris actually go away?

Are you kidding? He's probably dead. You couldn't pry him away from my leg for five minutes.

Originally posted by Gideon
How is that, Blax?

Because AC doesn't stop talking, ever. Hes's got more debating stamina then even you.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Because AC doesn't stop talking, ever. Hes's got more debating stamina then even you.

He's certainly tenacious for a man of his many, many years.

As far as stamina goes, it's because this is all he does. That's why Nebaris managed to be so irksome to everyone; he literally had no life outside of KMC. He spent the majority of his inordinant amount of time making accounts and trying to get on people's nerves.

I'm tempted to PM Nai and notify him that AC has cornered the market on House-mimicry. Nai'll show him how its done (with flair).

LOL. You should read our little PM war. AC alternates between hitting on me and accusing me of immitating him.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Mea culpa. Don't make it hostile. I haven't seen the film in a while. Still though, like all character in-story explanations, Han's word (of all words) is not taken immediately as canon. It's not canon at all in fact, since the height of the Empire only 4 years later saw 25,000 Star Destroyers in the Navy. Never mind the countless other frigates/support craft/fighter-carriers etc. And seeing how as it's the entire Empire we're talking about here...

ah...so wikipedia is canon yet the film isn't?

i see...

nice try



how cute...




best not to venture outside your comfort zone...might not like what happens.

Ah... so Han is automatically canon yet a confirmed canon out of universe source isn't?

Originally posted by jaden101
ah...so wikipedia is canon yet the film isn't?


Han is a single, fallible person.

Go back to the GDF.

Gideon, this is a formal warning. Bashing Jaden by calling him an idiot is not welcome here and going around baiting AC by talking about him in threads that he doesn't frequent is considered trolling. Knock it off of you are gone.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Ah... so Han is automatically canon yet a confirmed canon out of universe source isn't?

It's in the film...It's canon...get over it



see above.

Yes sir, lol.

Edit: Jaden, buddy, let me apologize. Sorry it got out of hand and I'm glad we're moving onto a discussion about why Black Ice blows.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yes sir, lol.

Edit: Jaden, buddy, let me apologize. Sorry it got out of hand and I'm glad we're moving onto a discussion about why Black Ice blows.

As am i...not really a need for animosity on a message board...it's all in fun.

Amen.

Originally posted by jaden101
It's in the film...It's canon...get over it



see above.


Doesn't matter. The movie didn't state it, Han did.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Doesn't matter. The movie didn't state it, Han did.

so by that logic Darth Vader said he's Luke's father...the film didn't...so he isn't.

Originally posted by jaden101
so by that logic Darth Vader said he's Luke's father...the film didn't...so he isn't.

Wow. You can make a false analogy. You are now as good at debating as a proponent for YE creationism.

Darth Vader has specific knowledge about Luke's heritage. There is no reason to assume that Han has a similarly intimate knowledge of the composition of the Imperial fleet. This line of argument won't get far. Kindly find another one.

Han Solo could say it all he wants but just because it is in the film doesn't make it canon. Here is a good example:

In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin Skywalker tells Padme that "he is more powerful then the chancellor and he came overthrow him," yet we see that he can't overcome Obiwan in battle, the same Obiwan that Yoda says (which he has the right to say since he knows how powerful Obiwan is since he has known him most of his life and fought with him in the clone wars) that Obwian will never be strong enough to overcome Sidious.

All character opinons are not canon/fact but they if they know a lot of information on a subject/person they can make an informed decision yet we don't know that Han has such knowledge of of the imperial fleet.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


Darth Vader has specific knowledge about Luke's heritage. There is no reason to assume that Han has a similarly intimate knowledge of the composition of the Imperial fleet. This line of argument won't get far. Kindly find another one.

Why not?..he would have huge knowledge of imperial fleet given that, by the nature of what he does, he risks his life trying to continually outwit the imperial fleet.

this would suggest he has a decent degree of knowledge about types of imperial ships at the very least.



besides...the only argument i need is this

Originally posted by jaden101
Why not?..he would have huge knowledge of imperial fleet given that, by the nature of what he does, he risks his life trying to continually outwit the imperial fleet.

this would suggest he has a decent degree of knowledge about types of imperial ships at the very least.

He might have a "decent knowledge" about the types of different ships, but how on earth do you hope to explain his intimate knowledge of the makeup of the Imperial Fleet? He hasn't seen records, he has never seen the whole fleet together, and he wasn't part of the Imperial Court, so he has no reasonable method of acquisition of this information. Don't you think that the Alliance would appreciate the suddenly infallible Han Solo a little more if he told them the exact composition of their enemy's forces?

---

The EU doesn't contradict the movies, so it is still canon. Han Solo isn't an infallible 3rd party source so there is no clash: He was simply wrong.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He might have a "decent knowledge" about the types of different ships, but how on earth do you hope to explain his intimate knowledge of the makeup of the Imperial Fleet? He hasn't seen records, he has never seen the whole fleet together, and he wasn't part of the Imperial Court, so he has no reasonable method of acquisition of this information. Don't you think that the Alliance would appreciate the suddenly infallible Han Solo a little more if he told them the exact composition of their enemy's forces?

---

The EU doesn't contradict the movies, so it is still canon. Han Solo isn't an infallible 3rd party source so there is no clash: He was simply wrong.

ah so knowing roughly how big the fleet is is the same as knowing exactly how many vessels and the types of those vessels is?

film...canon...the end

and going back to the argument...someone said that the peak of the empire there was 25,000 ships.

still isn't anywhere near the firepower in ST...so they still get destroyed.

the difference between me and most of the people in these forums is that i like SW and ST...and i'm not some 1 sided raging fanboy who cant see past their own biased opinion.

even if you take some of the EU into account it looks pretty dodgy from the SW side...in the thrawn trilogy the Katana fleet and who controls it can decide the fate of the galaxy...and that was only 200 ships.

i hardly think that some 24,000 ships were destroyed between the peak of the empire and the time of the thrawn trilogy

lets not also forget that sidious said that it is not force that keeps the systems in line but fear of force...questioning whether the empire really had the ability to apply massive military force.

and lets not forget the fact that the empire effectively fell at the battle of endor where it only put 50 star destroyers into the battle....surely if it had thousands more then, even with the death of the emperor, they could still have destroyed the alliance with ease.

Jaden, I'm going to have to step in here and side with my cohorts. Now, I realize we just had a touching period of forgiveness, so I'm going to give a vow to not include sarcasm or personal insults.

That said, understand that while the films are G-canon, the characters therein are not omnipotent or omniscient. Otherwise, Palpatine truly is a creature of "unlimited power!" and therefore on par or superior to the likes of Q; Darth Vader is more powerful, in turn, than the Emperor; Count Dooku is more powerful than "any Jedi" (including Yoda); Palpatine and Plagueis can prevent people from dying or summon life from midichlorians; and so on.

The Galactic Empire of a million worlds is hardly limited to a mere thousand Star Destroyers. The figures are astronomical; sourcebooks put figures into the millions; Pellaeon gives a minimalist figure of 25,000.

Don't allow EU minimalism to corrupt your vision, my young padawan. The Galactic Empire's fleets are pretty much phenomenal in size, number, and firepower.

Edit: Regarding the Empire's defeat post-RotJ, it was fragmented entirely due to warlordism; Palpatine designed the Empire to deliberately fracture without his leadership. When Thrawn was elected shogun of the remnants of the Empire, Palpatine was recovering on Byss. He withheld Imperial resources from Thrawn -- the vast, vast, vast majority of them actually -- because of paranoia and betrayal. He is also partially responsible for Thrawn's assassination.

Originally posted by jaden101
ah so knowing roughly how big the fleet is is the same as knowing exactly how many vessels and the types of those vessels is?

film...canon...the end
The events that took place in the film are canon. I could not argue with you if your claim was that "Han Solo said that ''" I can not dispute that he said it. In this, if in nothing else, you are correct. What you are completely, totally, flat out WRONG about is your assertion that Han Solo knew what he was talking about. Ignoring any of my previous objections, where is your proof that Han Solo is any more credible in a discussion about the Empire's total numbers than Baby Anakin? Han simply is not knowledgeable in this area. Yes, he said it, but that does not automatically make it true.

Originally posted by jaden101

and going back to the argument...someone said that the peak of the empire there was 25,000 ships.

still isn't anywhere near the firepower in ST...so they still get destroyed.
1. I never supported those numbers, nor have I investigated them. The assertion that Han Solo = Absolute authority is all that I initially objected to. Now that I'm here however, I may as well point out to you just where you went wrong.
2. Star Trek Vessels are generally large (most appear about even in size to the Enterprise) and not very maneuverable (Voyager's "evasive action" consisted entirely of a gentle curve away from the enemy). Star Wars Vessels are split into two main categories: Capital Ships and fighters. Capital ships are well fortified yet slow, while fighters are nimble yet easily destroyed in fights with technological equals. Here's where the capacities differ: energy output. A typical capital ship during the clone wars (the Republic Acclamator class) has weaponry that deals damage in the gigaton range. (Each "quad-turbolaser turret deals 200 gigatons/shot.) Federation Shields are capable of giving (according to D. Truculent's site) ~6400 MW 'sustainable load.' This would mean that a single shot from an outdated ship's main gun would punch right through the shields of even one of the more advanced Federation vessels. Numbers won't save the Federation.
Originally posted by jaden101

the difference between me and most of the people in these forums is that i like SW and ST...and i'm not some 1 sided raging fanboy who cant see past their own biased opinion.
My first Scifi experience was Star Trek. If anything I'm predisposed to side with Trek, rather than Wars. (Their technology looks cooler.) The problem is that the facts simply do not support your position.

Also, isn't calling someone a "1 sided raging fanboy" more insulting than the word "idiot?" Surely this counts as bashing. In fact,
REPORTED
Originally posted by jaden101

even if you take some of the EU into account it looks pretty dodgy from the SW side...in the thrawn trilogy the Katana fleet and who controls it can decide the fate of the galaxy...and that was only 200 ships.

i hardly think that some 24,000 ships were destroyed between the peak of the empire and the time of the Thrawn trilogy
O....K? I haven't supported these numbers and until I refresh my array of sources (I love public libraries) I will not be able to contest this point. Please keep it out of any misguided attempts at rebuttals.
Originally posted by jaden101

lets not also forget that Sidious said that it is not force that keeps the systems in line but fear of force...questioning whether the empire really had the ability to apply massive military force.
So, because Stalin had secret Police he didn't have a powerful army? You realize that a military solution is only necessary when tactics fail? The use of Military Force would only encourage further uprisings: The Emperor was using the most efficient method of Empire control, not the most brutal. He was a pragmatist.
Originally posted by jaden101

and lets not forget the fact that the empire effectively fell at the battle of Endor where it only put 50 star destroyers into the battle....surely if it had thousands more then, even with the death of the emperor, they could still have destroyed the alliance with ease.
And I quote:

The empire lost both of its senior (Sith) commanders. The Chain of Command was decimated during that battle. The Emperor wanted to bait a trap, not fortify his position. All of these reasons (and, I suppose PIS) account for the relatively small size of the Empire's fleet at Endor.


Face it: you haven't got a leg to stand on. Han isn't infallible, The Emperor was arrogant, and Star Wars's weapons (and by association their shields) are simply more powerful than their Star Trek counterparts. The Empire wins.

(I didn't even point out that the Acclamator is ~1/9 the strength of a Star Destroyer. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.)

Originally posted by jaden101
film...canon...the end
It's not that simple, just because Han says something doesn't make it true, (see my Anakin example from ROTS) Han was not in imperial service that long(maybe at year the very most but I doubt it) and when he was he wasn't high enough in the ranks to have access to such knowledge. Han could make a very rough guess based on his adventures but he has no true way of knowing and let's not forget the other types of star destroyers in service.



Based on what I have read Red Nemesis is not acting like a "raging fanboy."



The Katana fleet wasn't even star destroyers, it was made of 200 Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser. The reason it was so coveted by Thrawn and the alliance is because it is 200 ready to go cruisers that Thrawn need to due to the lost of many ships from the war with the rebellion/New Republic to imperial warlords fighting each other for power.





Are you referring to this? :"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
Tarkin was the one who said that actually in a letter to Sidious, the basic point he was trying to make was that by making examples out of those who rebelled then fear would of the deadly retribution (ex death star blows up a planet) from the empire would cause them cease rebellious activities.




That was a single fleet which not only had 50 ISD's (and other variants of cruisers and SD's) but it was in the presence of a Super Star Destroyer and more powerful( and bigger) Death star then the one the Luke destroyed. The emperor didn't think he need a vast majority of his fleets present since he "foresaw" his victory and didn't think the shield generator would be lost and then there is the question if he was using battle meditation would could have affected the battle.

The empire didn't fall at the battle of Endor. It obvious had other fleets spread across the galaxy. The war with the rebel alliance still continued to fight the empire who still was in control of Coruscant (despite the celebrations you see in the movie) for another 2 years all the while the empire was fracturing fighting amongst themselves of the New Republic since Palpatine never named a successor ( he never wanted to be replaced) and Vader was dead as well.

Technically, Luke told Palpatine "your overconfidence is your weakness."

The only reason that the Empire lost that fight even after the destruction of the Death Star is because of the effect Palpatine's death had on the Force. It wasn't just "oh, my leader is dead." It was more along the lines of "the guy who has been controlling the ****ing minds of every person in the fleet for two decades has just died, causing a massive release of Force energy, throwing the fleet into disarray."

Pellaeon called the retreat. But not everyone fled. Grand Admiral Something-or-another spent four hours at Endor, slugging it out with Ackbar and the Rebel fleet. By himself.

But-But that's what I have down!!

Did you edit that or am I going ****nuts? This is a serious question and if you attempt to manipulate me by lying, I'll have to arrange for a terribly painful death of certain small furry creatures.

Yes?
























Which answer will result in the safe passage of as many animals as possible?




















As is, I'm in a Schroedinger's edit state: I could have edited it, but I am equally likely not to have done so. Which is most advantageous?

I simply want the truth.

You can save your furry friends from annihilation with honesty.

I demand free passage for Mr. Mittens first- before I give you anything. The next 30 must be freed after the first word, with the final 33,969 animals free upon my answer.

You're in no position to negotiate. You're not even in the missionary position, much less negotiation position.

You will give me the honest answer or your friends will die.

Well then. I suppose You'll never know just how wrong you are...

Oops. I've said too much.










































Or have I?

Okay.

We'll start with the kittens. Captain Valerian is lighting up the crematorium. Your felines haven't got much time.

Originally posted by Gideon
Okay.

We'll start with the kittens. Captain Valerian is lighting up the crematorium. Your felines haven't got much time.

Bah. Cat's make me sneeze.

But they're also cute. Even those who are allergic love pussy.

Little bastard animals all of them.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Little bastard animals all of them.

Speaking of tiny, furry creatures, your balls are next on the list of things to go. Better convince Red to tell me the truth.

Originally posted by Gideon
But they're also cute. Even those who are allergic love pussy.

I don't really go for jailbait, but whatever floats your boat man. Whatever floats your boat.

Water.

Blax, better beg Red to tell the truth.

My testicles have been shaved.

THus, you must be referring to Faunus' little ones.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
My testicles have been shaved.

THus, you must be referring to Faunus' little ones.

WOW. TMI. Just WAY tee-em-eye. If it will end this conversation then I'll just tell you already.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
My testicles have been shaved.

Wow, really?

Didn't know Gillette made a razor that small.



Not interested in microbiology. Suffice it to say we haven't the means to locate his, much less remove them.

Edit: Aroused, Nemesis? Your not-so-well-concealed homosexuality will bear further monitoring in the future. Blax might make his move.

Originally posted by Gideon
Okay.

We'll start with the kittens. Captain Valerian is lighting up the crematorium. Your felines haven't got much time. Captain Valerian reports to me, douchebag. So does Santa Claus.

And threatening kittens puts you on the naughty list. GO TO BED AND DON'T PEEK OR SANTA IS GOING TO SIT ON YOU AND GIVE YOUR PRESENTS TO CHARITY.

Please. Valerian has been attracted to me since day one. Mine is the star which he orbits! He belongs to me.

Gideon isn't Crazy. Yet. I edited the post.

^^^homoerotic narcissism Gideon? I'd watch out for your own latent homosexual feelings for Capt. Val. He eats the souls of Babies who chose to be gay.

See a new day!
Start a new wayyy!
Get it straight, make a change for the betta!

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Gideon isn't Crazy. Yet. I edited the post. Why the **** would you say that? You just completely ruined it. Completely.

Although Gideon is still crazy, Santa hates his religion, and kittens are not flammable (although they can be killed by rats).

I have to go to bed. I didn't want Mr. Mittens to hurt anyone. Chupacabras get angry when people try to incinerate them. It was for your own protection.

Go you silly Israeli.

Or is that Crimzon? Either way, Sarah Palin loves one of you, and therefore I am forced by silly radical liberal agenda to hate you.

Originally posted by Faunus
Go you silly Israeli.

Or is that Crimzon? Either way, Sarah Palin loves one of you, and therefore I am forced by silly radical liberal agenda to hate you.

That'd be Crimzon. I just gave one (but not all) of our votes to Obama.

NObama! NObama!

Buhrock HUSSEIN OBSAMA!!!

while i understand the point you're attempting to make it must be noted that many, even starwars fans on this forum, have said that in a one on one between a star destroyer and a borg cube...the cube has the advantage

then take what we know from the tactics used on ships just prior to the formation of the empire...the dreadnaughts in the clone wars in battle above corascant with the trade federation ships...they effectively went side by side like old style sailing ships and blasted the hell out of each other.

a single transphasic torpeda laid waste to a borg cube...a ship almost double the size in every direction than the length of a star destroyer.

then there is phased plasma torpedos...that phase out of normal space time and appear inside the shields of enemy vessels before detonating...thus negating any shielding

then there is ablative armour...designed to disipate energy weapons thus showing that even borg weapons had no effect on voyager

other weapons available in the ST universe

Multikinetic Neutronic Mines: weapons of mass destruction that can decimate entire solar systems

dreadnoughts: self functioning missles with sophisticated AI and it's own defences and weaponry capable of warp 9 and a payload of matter and antimatter that can destroy a small moon.

omega particles: capable of destroying subspace over light years of distance....only a few molecules had enough power, when they destabilised, to destroy 29 borg cubes and 600,000 drones.



you haven't supported what numbers?..the 200?...i assure you it's accurate.

still...the end reality is that actual real numbers to go by are virtually impossible...the only real measure is how much damage they do in relation to real universe objects and given what we know about the earth's size and population and compare.

given that alderaan is listed as being almost the same size as the earth and has almost the same planetary cycle then you can form it on that basis.

the death star easily (from the look of it) destroyed it.

Q weapons cause supernova in normal reality.


SW has the death star that can destroy

also take note of some of the things i've already mentioned...omega particles etc.

ironically though....Alderaan is actually mentioned several times in ST

just thought i'd throw that in there.



hmm...debatable...very, infact...remember that han warns that without calculations they could pass through a star...thus suggesting normal universe travel.

granted that hyper-space travel is considerably faster than warp but official maps say weeks to months dependant on type of hyperdrive rather than hours or days as you suggest.

and as you've already mentioned there is transwarp which means ships in ST can travel anywhere to fixed points in the galaxy in simply a couple of minutes.

http://www.moviecritic.com.au/images/star-wars-galaxy-map-big-version-detailed12.jpg

the same source also says the galaxy is comparable in size to the milky way but limits the no of habitable planets to "over a million"

if we were to logically scale this up in terms of our own known galaxy then there is as many as 4 times the number of populated planets.

obviously the degree of technological advancement in ST is far greater than what we know in SW to the detriment of ST as some species are even sub light or less.

anyway...i'm sure this debate would go, in terms of the numbers of people on each side, the other way in the ST forums...that much is inevitable due to the nature of such things...

i just enjoy stirring the pot and getting fanboys with no knowlege all flustered (and i think we both know there and more of them in the SW forums than there are people capable of putting up an argument as you are)

Originally posted by jaden101
while i understand the point you're attempting to make it must be noted that many, even starwars fans on this forum, have said that in a one on one between a star destroyer and a borg cube...the cube has the advantage
Appeal to the consensus isn't a valid argument. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn what "many starwars fans on this forum" think, especially when that includes BOOG, Mizkalage and Sidious66. The numbers suggest that Star Wars weaponry and defensive technology is superior to the Federation. The Borg are superior to the federation, true, but they have been defeated militarily by Earth Based tech. If Earth tech that would do jack squat to a Star Destroyer can destroy a Cube then if I were you I'd be very cautious about claiming superiority. Can you back up your claim of "Cube > SD?"
Originally posted by jaden101

then take what we know from the tactics used on ships just prior to the formation of the empire...the dreadnaughts in the clone wars in battle above corascant with the trade federation ships...they effectively went side by side like old style sailing ships and blasted the hell out of each other.
What's your point? The Federation basically uses old-style line tactics in a three dimensional stage. In the First Contact fight against the Cube they basically formed a wall and then started swarming against it. The Borg tactics are even worse. Against species 8472, in a fight they could not possibly win, they continued to pour resources into attack. Besides their strategically dubious moves, the Borg also have a near total disregard for tactics. In both ground combat (with drones) and Space fights they essentially advance forward, accepting any losses they might take. Paelleon, Ackbar and even Vader would tear them apart. God help them if they had to deal with Thrawn.
Originally posted by jaden101

a single transphasic torpeda laid waste to a borg cube...a ship almost double the size in every direction than the length of a star destroyer.
This would imply that the Borg don't have transphasic torpedoes. (because it was used against them.) This is a Borg invasion: they can only attack with weapons they possess. Comparrisons with similar technology work because their shields and weapons operate under similar principles and therefore damage potentials. You can't just give the Borg every weapon in the ST universe- that isn't the setup in this match. (feel free to re-post this argument in the Universe v Universe thread and I'll attack it differently there.)
Originally posted by jaden101

then there is phased plasma torpedos...that phase out of normal space time and appear inside the shields of enemy vessels before detonating...thus negating any shielding
It seems to me that Star Wars shields are flush to the surface of the craft: look at Naboo Starfighters- phased plasma torpedoes couldn't avoid those shields. This might be a good strategy against a larger shield like the one that surrounded the Death Star II though...

EH, Gideon, any thoughts? I'd actually love to talk about the mechanics of SW shields. To Project Holocron!
Originally posted by jaden101

then there is ablative armour...designed to disipate energy weapons thus showing that even borg weapons had no effect on voyager
1. Prove that the Borg had ablative armor.
2. Prove that the Armor used on starships is any different from the armor used in Trek.
3. Prove that protection from phasers will also protect against turbolasers.

Originally posted by jaden101

other weapons available in the ST universe
That the borg have access to?
Originally posted by jaden101

Multikinetic Neutronic Mines: weapons of mass destruction that can decimate entire solar systems
This seems impractical in a fleet-combat situation: interdictors would at least ensure that both fleets are destroyed, resulting in- at best- a draw.
Originally posted by jaden101

dreadnoughts: self functioning missles with sophisticated AI and it's own defences and weaponry capable of warp 9 and a payload of matter and antimatter that can destroy a small moon.
Controlled by the Borg? Defenses that would be any more effective against Star Wars Weaponry than other Star Trek tech has been?
Originally posted by jaden101

omega particles: capable of destroying subspace over light years of distance....only a few molecules had enough power, when they destabilised, to destroy 29 borg cubes and 600,000 drones.
Oh, yeah, because Star Wars uses Subspace so much. This would just backfire: harming the Trek tech while leaving the Wars tech in perfect working order.

What were the mechanics of the explosion? Was is used as a power source, or was it the result of the subspace blast... In either case, were the 600,000 drones in addition to the 29 cubes, or were they the crew. I suppose that it was pretty impressive.

Plot point:
Didn't the Borg see the omega particle as perfection?

Originally posted by jaden101

you haven't supported what numbers?..the 200?...i assure you it's accurate.
I'm simply not going to discuss the numbers of the empire in relation to the alleged 200 during Thrawn's era because I have literally no clue about the context.
Originally posted by jaden101

still...the end reality is that actual real numbers to go by are virtually impossible...the only real measure is how much damage they do in relation to real universe objects and given what we know about the earth's size and population and compare.
Agreed. Incidentally, this is SD.net's methodology.
Originally posted by jaden101

given that alderaan is listed as being almost the same size as the earth and has almost the same planetary cycle then you can form it on that basis.

the death star easily (from the look of it) destroyed it.

Q weapons cause supernova in normal reality.
If you involve Q in this then Star Trek automatically wins. Omnipotence simply isn't fair. Also: Did the Borg have access to Q weapons? No? Then drop it.

Originally posted by jaden101

SW has the death star that can destroy

also take note of some of the things i've already mentioned...omega particles etc.

ironically though....Alderaan is actually mentioned several times in ST

just thought i'd throw that in there.
k
Originally posted by jaden101


hmm...debatable...very, infact...remember that han warns that without calculations they could pass through a star...thus suggesting normal universe travel.
The way that causes a problem is the gravity well would pull the ship out of hyperspace: this is why interdictors are such an important part in ambushing/engaging a fleet. A ship in Hyperspace reverts to real space, then it is burned/melted/vaporized/fried by the star/black hole/Blaxican. The danger isn't present in hyperspace.
Originally posted by jaden101

granted that hyper-space travel is considerably faster than warp but official maps say weeks to months dependant on type of hyperdrive rather than hours or days as you suggest.
I'll accept these numbers, unless Gid/EH/Faunus wants to contest them. The point remains that Hyperdrive is still many times faster than Warp.
Originally posted by jaden101

and as you've already mentioned there is transwarp which means ships in ST can travel anywhere to fixed points in the galaxy in simply a couple of minutes.
Those fixed points wouldn't exist in the SW galaxy: that is where this takes place.

Originally posted by jaden101

http://www.moviecritic.com.au/images/star-wars-galaxy-map-big-version-detailed12.jpg

the same source also says the galaxy is comparable in size to the milky way but limits the no of habitable planets to "over a million"

if we were to logically scale this up in terms of our own known galaxy then there is as many as 4 times the number of populated planets.
Sorry to be pedantic, but there is exactly one known habitable/populated planet in our galaxy. If you mean in the Trek Galaxy then I'd be curious as to where you got your numbers for the planets in Trek/Wars- because I've never found a list/total of species for either universe.
Originally posted by jaden101

obviously the degree of technological advancement in ST is far greater than what we know in SW to the detriment of ST as some species are even sub light or less.
I'll give you a chance to correct this: your statement is kind of garbled. It almost sounds like ST is greater because some species are still sub-light. Star Trek technology is flashier and geared more towards comfort and amenities: Star Wars has no corollary to the flamboyant holodeck. I'll leave this up to you to decide if that is a good thing or a bad thing. Trek's standard weaponry however is firmly below that of Star Wars.
Originally posted by jaden101

anyway...i'm sure this debate would go, in terms of the numbers of people on each side, the other way in the ST forums...that much is inevitable due to the nature of such things...
I'd like to think that I'd be winning even if there were more people against me than with me... let's go there and find out! (I'll start/revive the Wars/trek war there too!)

EDIT: The Star Trek Forum does not look very open to new ideas about the relative strengths of the series. I will not be starting a new thread there.

Originally posted by jaden101

i just enjoy stirring the pot and getting fanboys with no knowlege all flustered (and i think we both know there and more of them in the SW forums than there are people capable of putting up an argument as you are)
I have found that the most fun on the intrawebs is not found in pwning n00bs, but in pwning people who actually know what they are talking about. The full extent of a victory can be better comprehended by an opponent of suitable intelligence than an ignoramus. That's why I got so little satisfaction out of the ID/Ev. debate with knightfa11: even when I won/he quit, he couldn't understand how completely he was going to/had lost. (Just kidding man. But still- I'm always ready to start it back up! )

I'm extrapolating...if the SW galaxy is the same distance from end to end as ours (which is what the ST galaxy is set in) yet it only has a 1/4 the number of stars...then it may only have a 1/4 the number of inhabited or inhabitable planets...



i'm not saying it's greater...you're reading it wrong...i was actually putting an argument against ST in that it has alot more variation in advancement of technology compared with that of the SW galaxy.

and no...SW weapons are not definitively more powerful than ST weaponry...although i'd like to see where you got the figures you previously mentioned if you could provide the link that'd perfect.

also you failed to actually give the ST figures and so a comparison is not feasible and so simply saying "they put punch through a federation ships shields" doesn't really hold any merit.



you should...it isn't as closed to new ideas as you'd think...it obviously has alot less in it because of the length of time it's been going compared with the SW threads (given that they are the oldest of all the kmc sections)



the Borg take huge losses because they are acceptable...29 ships and 600,000 drones all for the creation of the omega particle are just brushed aside as if nothing.

the dominion (an even more powerful and massive empire than that of the borg) on the other hand have superb tactical awareness as well as far more hardened and better engineered soldiers than stormtroopers or clone troopers)...namely the Jem Ha'dar



1:



from

http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/Ablative_armor


2: if they are the same (as you seem to be insinuating, then clearly ST weaponary is far more powerful because a single transphasic torpedo is enough to destroy a vessel 3 times the size of a star destroyer.

3: prove that it can't without the numbers for the ST ships

the only weakness the borg has is that it can't independantly advance their own technology. they have to assimilate technology from other species and integrate it into their own

there is nothing to suggest that they simply couldn't access data on board a star destroyer (if R2D2 can do it mostly undetected i'm sure a borg can)

not to mention their ability to adapt...they took damage from the enterprise...analysed the weapons and next time they couldn't scratch them. nothing to suggest they wouldn't simply adapt or assimilate SW tech easily after which nothing the SW empire could throw at the borg would make any difference.



It's always fun...and with 25 years of star wars and 16 years of star trek watching....i know a decent amount.

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm extrapolating...if the SW galaxy is the same distance from end to end as ours (which is what the ST galaxy is set in) yet it only has a 1/4 the number of stars...then it may only have a 1/4 the number of inhabited or inhabitable planets...
I see. What's your source for the 1/4 number? I think it is surprising that the more diverse universe is also the more peaceful. (Star Trek) This is an out of universe issue (what message the writers wanted to convey) but explaining it 'in universe' would be a fun exercise. Thoughts? I've got a few ideas, but I know what I think- what's your take on it?
Originally posted by jaden101

i'm not saying it's greater...you're reading it wrong...i was actually putting an argument against ST in that it has alot more variation in advancement of technology compared with that of the SW galaxy.
Sorry- brain cramp. I see what you mean, but there also seemed (at the time) to be a double meaning in that degree of technological advancement in ST is far greater than what we know in SW. I took degree to mean level rather than variety. My bad.
Originally posted by jaden101

and no...SW weapons are not definitively more powerful than ST weaponry...although i'd like to see where you got the figures you previously mentioned if you could provide the link that'd perfect.
I'm afraid I can't link: It's from a book. Star Wars Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-sections places the Acclamator class capital ship's main guns' power @ 200 gigatons.
Originally posted by jaden101

also you failed to actually give the ST figures and so a comparison is not feasible and so simply saying "they put punch through a federation ships shields" doesn't really hold any merit.
I got the Federation numbers here as directed from Darth Truculent's thread. Sorry if the numbers aren't canon: I'll look harder for set numbers.

I based my reasoning from this figure:

If their shields put out 6,400 MW of power, and they are hit with 200 gigatons of turbolaser they will be "punched through." Admittedly this is only for the Sovereign class, but are the other ships' shields likely to be orders of magnitude stronger?

Originally posted by jaden101

you should...it isn't as closed to new ideas as you'd think...it obviously has alot less in it because of the length of time it's been going compared with the SW threads (given that they are the oldest of all the kmc sections)
On your suggestion I will do so, but I suggest that you look at this page:http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f103/t485641.html

The posters didn't seem to be particularly enthusiastic about the possibility of a debate. Maybe a prohibition of insults and idiocy will help... *goes to make thread*
Originally posted by jaden101

the Borg take huge losses because they are acceptable...29 ships and 600,000 drones all for the creation of the omega particle are just brushed aside as if nothing.
Actually, my question was only about the location of the 600,000 drones: were they aboard the cubes or on a planet or... what were the specifics?
Originally posted by jaden101

the dominion (an even more powerful and massive empire than that of the borg) on the other hand have superb tactical awareness as well as far more hardened and better engineered soldiers than stormtroopers or clone troopers)...namely the Jem Ha'dar
Wow. The 3 day maturation cycle could cause problems. The "more powerful than a stormtrooper" might need some backing up, because stormtroopers were also stronger than normal humans, had faster reflexes and their HUD (technology, I admit) puts their perception at least equal to that of a Jem'Hadar.

They are not Borg though. Remember that we are debating Borg vs. Empire, not ST UNIVERSE vs the Empire. I admit that the GALAXY of star trek eclipses the Empire, even if only due to Q's influence. (omnipotence)
Originally posted by jaden101

1:


I'll accept that.

Originally posted by jaden101

2: if they are the same (as you seem to be insinuating, then clearly ST weaponary is far more powerful because a single transphasic torpedo is enough to destroy a vessel 3 times the size of a star destroyer.
This was a terribly worded question. I'm so sorry, but when I re-read that it was the sort of thing that I'd rebut even if I was in agreement with the rest of the argument. I was about as communicative as a sack of rocks.

You're right, of course, but what my question said wasn't what I meant at all. Here's what I meant, for real this time:
2. Here's what we know: Star Wars weapons (lasers) do more damage than Star Trek's Shields are designed to protect against. Star Trek Weapons do not overload shields in one shot, so we can deduce that they are less powerful. Given this information, prove that the armor on Imperial Starships will react to phasers any differently than they react to turbolasers.

This (and, in hindsight, the original question) is just a roundabout way of saying that Star Wars armor survives stronger hits, so it is stronger than Star Trek armor. I think I will have to concede this point (even in the revised form) because I can think of at least two arguments in response to this challenge. Consider it (this particular challenge) dropped.
Originally posted by jaden101

3: prove that it can't without the numbers for the ST ships.
Logical fallacy: it is impossible to prove a negative. Burden of proof appears to be on you. I hate shuffling BoP around as a debating tactic, but because of the radically different nature of phasers and turbolasers/blaster cannons I have to say that you are responsible for substantiating the idea that Star Trek defenses will work on very different types of attack.
Originally posted by jaden101

the only weakness the borg has is that it can't independantly advance their own technology. they have to assimilate technology from other species and integrate it into their own

there is nothing to suggest that they simply couldn't access data on board a star destroyer (if R2D2 can do it mostly undetected i'm sure a borg can)
Your argument (seems to) rest(s) on the fact that a Drone > artoo (which is debatable) so a Drone can do anything that Artoo can just as well if not better. The problem is that Drones attract a lot more attention than an astromech droid does- a scary cybernetic monstrosity jacked into a control terminal arouses more suspicion than a small astromech droid does. So, I'm not sure at all that a droid can access data on board a SD.
Originally posted by jaden101

not to mention their ability to adapt...they took damage from the enterprise...analysed the weapons and next time they couldn't scratch them. nothing to suggest they wouldn't simply adapt or assimilate SW tech easily after which nothing the SW empire could throw at the borg would make any difference.
Gotcha. I've been waiting for the "they'll adapt" line. The simple fact is that turbolasers aren't about frequencies or phasing or subtle vibrations: they are about power. No matter how perfectly the Borg modulate their shields the confrontation will still come down to a confrontation between power generators. Star Wars will win such a confrontation. The Borg are simply outclassed: the imperial power supply dwarfs theirs by a considerable margin. The energy output into shields (which is often "all available power" in times of emergency) is near or at 6400 MW. The Star Wars engineers measure energy output in far larger terms: peak shielding is 7X10^22 watts: it is measured in scientific notation rather than units. 1 MW = 1X10^6 watts. The Star Trek ships put sixteen orders of magnitude less energy into shields than Star Wars ships do. If energy is allocated in a similar fashion (we have no reason to assume that it isn't) then Star Trek ships put out about 16 orders of magnitude less energy than imperial ships do. This is a recipe for defeat.
Originally posted by jaden101

It's always fun...and with 25 years of star wars and 16 years of star trek watching....i know a decent amount.



Hey, it beats homework!

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

I see. What's your source for the 1/4 number? I think it is surprising that the more diverse universe is also the more peaceful. (Star Trek) This is an out of universe issue (what message the writers wanted to convey) but explaining it 'in universe' would be a fun exercise. Thoughts? I've got a few ideas, but I know what I think- what's your take on it?


The first thing to come to mind is the force, off hand I can only think of two major wars that didn't star because of a force user/organization, (notably the sith) which were the Vong War and the Second Galactic Civil War though Luymiya and Darth Caedus played a really big part in escalating the war.

I noticed Red, that you made the sw vs St thread in the ST section. Unfortunately, I am far from a sci fi tech expert so my posting there (and in the st vs threads here) will be limited mostly to correcting continuity errors made but I have a couple of question I would like to ask based on this paragraph.



If all EU (that fits into the time frame) is allowed then does that mean other major governments in the galaxy (and unknown regions) can play a role such Hapes Consortium and the Chiss Ascendancy . Also what about the planets that were able to maintain it's own fleet such as Corellia (is center point station usable?) and Bothawui (I think?) Is the rebellion around and does the same rule you placed on military alliances apply to SW? Finally what of the Vong which were slowly getting all their forces ready for the invasions.

I'll throw a curveball now. A single cube attempts a suicidal attack against the Death Star. Death Star blows it up. In First Contact, a platoon sized number of Borg managed to get on the Enterprise and nearly assimilated it.

Now what if the same happened to the Death Star? A platoon of Borg drones managed to inflitrate and assimilate a non-critical station of the DS - what would happen? Blasters eventually would be ineffective because drone shields would adapt to it. Blast doors wouldn't work because the Borg would seize control of the main computer and lock it out. Or they would bypass it and find crawlways. Force shields can't work because Borg are known to walk through them. Without Vader's help, I think the DS would be assimilated. And your thoughts . . .

They'd be destroyed before they could do any damage. Assaulting the Death Star would be like assaulting a city.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The first thing to come to mind is the force, off hand I can only think of two major wars that didn't star because of a force user/organization, (notably the sith) which were the Vong War and the Second Galactic Civil War though Luymiya and Darth Caedus played a really big part in escalating the war.
Bingo. Also, the early conquest of large swaths of the Galaxy (Infinite Empire, Whoever Built Centerpoint, the introduction of Hyperdrive) homogenized the technology in much of the galaxy. On top of this we have the close knit communities built by being only a few days away from each other, rather than many weeks apart.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter

I noticed Red, that you made the sw vs St thread in the ST section. Unfortunately, I am far from a sci fi tech expert so my posting there (and in the st vs threads here) will be limited mostly to correcting continuity errors made but I have a couple of question I would like to ask based on this paragraph. The purpose of that paragraph was to narrow down the Star Wars side, and to provide some semblence of symmetry to a contest that without restrictions would be lopsided. (Q is really off putting. He messes things up.)


Originally posted by Elite Hunter

If all EU (that fits into the time frame) is allowed then does that mean other major governments in the galaxy (and unknown regions) can play a role such Hapes Consortium and the Chiss Ascendancy . Also what about the planets that were able to maintain it's own fleet such as Corellia (is center point station usable?) and Bothawui (I think?) Is the rebellion around and does the same rule you placed on military alliances apply to SW? Finally what of the Vong which were slowly getting all their forces ready for the invasions.
I would call the rebellion off limits, as well as the peripheral fleets. When it comes to numbers I am sadly uninformed. I wanted it confined to the Empire vs. a single Trek organization. The Chiss/Hapes/Bothawui seem like marginal powers- after all, the Empire fielded the single most powerful fleet in SW history. (says Gideon.)

Powers that are not under imperial control don't qualify, unless another poster wants to argue the Chiss vs. the Borg. The same arguments might apply, but there are so many more unknowns that it would probably be impossible.

So- in order of asking:
1. They could play a role, yes, but they would not be able to join with the Empire.
2. I have no idea about Correllia, but I suppose that if ST gets superweapons so does SW. Centerpoint station is usable. As for the Correllian fleet, I don't know what level of Autonomy it retained; if it was a section of the Imp. Army it is usable, but if it was totally separate then it isn't.
3. The Military alliance rule applies to SW.
4. The Vong would probably require their own thread, mostly because I don't know much about them. I wouldn't complain if someone made an argument for them, but it won't be me.

...

I just got a killer idea: Borg vs. Vong

Also, Borg vs. Zerg

And by the transitive property: Zerg vs. Vong.


Did your mind just explode or what?!?!(one)


The Borg vs. Vong would raise the same problems as S. 8472- the Vong's shapers might mimic/defend against the nanoprobes and push the collective back. The idea of a confrontation is nerdvanna.

Zerg would kill the Borg eventually.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I just got a killer idea: Borg vs. Vong

Also, Borg vs. Zerg

And by the transitive property: Zerg vs. Vong.


Did your mind just explode or what?!?!(one)


The Borg vs. Vong would raise the same problems as S. 8472- the Vong's shapers might mimic/defend against the nanoprobes and push the collective back. The idea of a confrontation is nerdvanna.

*halo fanboy emerges*

Vong vs the flood.

... Flood would kill the Vong eventually... and the Empire too.

According to the Halo 1 novel when the Chief first met the flood in that room it filled up with "hundreds of thousands" in "seconds".

There are literally multiple trillions of flood and they can hide in pipes,sewers everything. They inherit the traits of any animal they infect in seconds, and gain their abilities, strength, etc. If they take over a pilot or officer they gain all of their knowledge and can even pilot ships and fire weapons. The Overmind is, unlike Jedi and Sith, literally omniscient.

FORCE SENSITIVE FLOOD

That's what I was inplying.

It'd be over at that point.

They're pretty crazy. They're considered to be so dangerous that it's Covenent policy to glass an entire planet if even one flood spore is found on it.

Nerdvanna - I like that phrase

The Ultimate Visual Guide states explicitly (twice, I believe) that the Galactic Empire was an unprecedented military build up in galactic history.



On the ground? Possibly.

In an actual campaign? No. The Empire's Star Destroyers are far more potent than Covenant ships; a single Destroyer can obliterate the surface of a planet. Likewise, the Emperor can take control of any Star Destroyer in the fleet due to backdoors in the interface network. He can literally render a Flood-operated vessel immobile or activate its self destruct sequence without difficulty.



The Gravemind isn't omniscient. It, like Palpatine, displays remarkable foresight (Palpatine, actually fares much better in comparison). It can and was taken off its guard and destroyed (twice) for just that reason.

It is generally considered, since the release of the ICS. That Star Trek is no match for Star Wars. Trek ships generally have firepower in the hundreds of megatons range. SW is in the hundreds of gigatons. With that said SW closest match from sci-fi fans around the net is the Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40k

Without the aid of Vader or Palpatine aka Sidious, I think the Borg would assimilate the Death Star. If a platoon of Borg managed to infilitrate the Death Star or even a Star Destroyer, then it's over. Blasters would become ineffective. The personal shield on a drone would protect it from a blaster shot. The only being that can stop a drone is a Force-user. A lightsaber harmonics wouldn't be affected by a drones shields.

If the Borg managed to fully assimilate a Star Destroyer and incorporated turbolasers with Borg disruptors and Borg shields, than it would be invincible. Proton torpedoes would useless - you'd need at least a quantum or transphasic torpedo to punch through the enhanced shields. Armor density would be strengthened and if turbolaser and disruptor were linked, you'd have a particle weapon that could cause more than twice the damage a standard turbolaser could cause.

Opinions?

No, not a Star Destroyer.

Merry Christmas to you too. But yes, 27,000 men would be assimilated along with the ship. Borg doctrine is to seize engineering first and computer systems next and last the weapons systems negating the self-destruct. Along the way they would be assimilating crew members. So in theory, a Star Destroyer can be assimilated. So a Star Destroyer that has been assimilated by the Borg would be invicible except to S.8472 or maybe the Dominion.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Merry Christmas to you too. But yes, 27,000 men would be assimilated along with the ship. Borg doctrine is to seize engineering first and computer systems next and last the weapons systems negating the self-destruct. Along the way they would be assimilating crew members. So in theory, a Star Destroyer can be assimilated. So a Star Destroyer that has been assimilated by the Borg would be invicible except to S.8472 or maybe the Dominion. This is of course assuming that the entire crew of a Star Destroyer will just stand there and not fight back. And assuming that the Borg can't be defeated.

Originally posted by Gideon
On the ground? Possibly.

No possibly to it.



But in the end that's an SD gone out of the fight and thousands of personnel down the drain. And any information, tactics, strategies, location of key areas, anything a an infested person knows, the flood and thus the Gravemind knows about. Even the Empire, with all it's vastness, can't afford to losee a hundred thousand men for ever thosuand or hundred thosuand Flood lost in the process.





I misworded. The Gravemind only sees and knows everything the Flood see. He has telepathy too. That's not omnciscient though is it?

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Without the aid of Vader or Palpatine aka Sidious, I think the Borg would assimilate the Death Star. If a platoon of Borg managed to infilitrate the Death Star or even a Star Destroyer, then it's over. Blasters would become ineffective. The personal shield on a drone would protect it from a blaster shot. The only being that can stop a drone is a Force-user. A lightsaber harmonics wouldn't be affected by a drones shields.

If the Borg managed to fully assimilate a Star Destroyer and incorporated turbolasers with Borg disruptors and Borg shields, than it would be invincible. Proton torpedoes would useless - you'd need at least a quantum or transphasic torpedo to punch through the enhanced shields. Armor density would be strengthened and if turbolaser and disruptor were linked, you'd have a particle weapon that could cause more than twice the damage a standard turbolaser could cause.

Opinions?

If it was that easy then everytime the Borg beamed aboard a ship they would win. They don't. It's not like the Borg can adapt their shields in seconds. They'll die first.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
No possibly to it.

Yes, there is.

We've seen throughout all three games that the Flood, while incredibly formidable, have been destroyed by Covenant and UNSC strike teams. Hell, the Master Chief alone has battled armies of them and lived to fight another day.

While the Chief is more trained and dangerous than your average stormtrooper, he's nothing special. His armor is sub-par, his weapons are sub-par, his support infantry is sub-par (when in comparison to that of the Empire). And, remember, the Empire's forces are hardly limited to run-of-the-mill stormtroopers. There are dozens of specialized troopers -- including the likes of Dark Troopers and Purge Troopers -- which are juggernauts of technology designed to fight and kill Jedi. They would decimate Flood forces.

What makes the Flood so dangerous is their unlimited numbers. But they would never just simply overrun the Empire; the Flood casualties would be astronomical.



A single Star Destroyer isn't something that the Empire will worry about at all. Palpatine lost countless Star Destroyers by the time of Dark Empire and still managed to retake the galaxy a second time in under a year. Not to mention all of the shit he has cooking up in the Maw Installation -- the planet destroying space stations and whatnot. And understand: Palpatine isn't the UNSC or Covenant. Unlike them, he hasn't got a shred of honor or compassion to struggle with. He's easily as twisted and as ruthless as the Flood themselves -- given the extent of the Imperial Remnant's capability with nanoviruses in Legacy of the Force, it wouldn't surprise me if Palpatine simply had a virus made to target the Flood and drop it off on every planet in the galaxy.

He's willing to destroy civilizations, kill civilians, wipe out species to win. And he has the means to do so.



No.

Which, if that were the extent of their powers, make him no better than Palpatine. The difference being that Palpatine is capable of remarkable foresight (and also has the services of the Prophets of the Dark Side). He can and will look into the future to strategize how to combat the Flood.

Originally posted by Gideon
While the Chief is more trained and dangerous than your average stormtrooper, he's nothing special.

As the overwhelming force the Flood appear to be, I would consider burning and killing thousands of them by yourself something special. But, the problem is, I don't know how good the Master Chief is in comparison to, say, a Dark Trooper or a Purge Trooper.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
As the overwhelming force the Flood appear to be, I would consider burning and killing thousands of them by yourself something special. But, the problem is, I don't know how good the Master Chief is in comparison to, say, a Dark Trooper or a Purge Trooper.

You misinterpret. I mean that he is nothing special in terms of his resources. Everything he has at his disposal, the Remnant could match without difficulty. The Empire at its peak? Pssh. Palpatine could create billions of Master Chiefs.

An Imperial Purge Trooper is a prototype of the Dark Trooper project. It's twice the size and height of an average human, equipped with certain magnetic tractor beams and modifications that made them all but immune to even the most potent telekinetic attacks. They were equipped with ridiculous physical strength as well as missile launchers and energy blades to combat lightsabers.

They gave the Apprentice fits, so they are designed to attack and kill high-end Force users.

Originally posted by Gideon
An Imperial Purge Trooper is a prototype of the Dark Trooper project. It's twice the size and height of an average human, equipped with certain magnetic tractor beams and modifications that made them all but immune to even the most potent telekinetic attacks. They were equipped with ridiculous physical strength as well as missile launchers and energy blades to combat lightsabers.

They gave the Apprentice fits, so they are designed to attack and kill high-end Force users.
I hate to quibble, especially when I can only do so for one part of your argument, but what good will troops specifically designed to take out Jedi be against Flood. Flood drones do not use telekinesis, so the "Magnetic Tractor Beams" will not be applicable, nor do infected individuals use lightsabers. Even the Beam Sword was a fairly rare weapon. While I have no doubt that the Purge troopers are excellently trained and equipped, their specialization would not help them any more than any other type of advanced training.

Being Good Against Jedi (henceforth referred to as BGAJ) =/= Being Good Against Flood. (Which is used so rarely on this forum that it doesn't deserve its own acronym.)

Purge troopers are, as I recall, essentially all machines. They are incapable of infection or assimilation by the Flood. We have seen in combat that Flood ground tactics are generally laughable; they simply swarm their opponents, lashing out with superior strength, and then infecting their prey.

Purge troopers are taller, more massive, and physically stronger than Flood attack forms. Their magnetic tractor beams will likely prevent them from being knocked down; their rocket launchers enable them to destroy large swarms of Flood; and their energy blade will also allow them to handle the Flood quite easily -- the advantage therein being that unlike Covenant energy swords -- Imperial blades last forever.

Keep in mind that as far as individuals go, Jedi are vastly more formidable than the Flood. Jedi reflexes and speed are lightyears ahead as are their capacity for destruction; as you correctly point out, the Flood are incapable of metaphysical attacks via telekinesis or the Force. All in all, they are far less threatening (I reiterate: the true danger represented by the Flood is simply their capacity to evolve and infect, not their physical attributes).

The Empire can mass produce Purge troopers quite handily. And this is, of course, ignoring all of the other dozens of stormtrooper and infantry varients and the Emperor's corps of dark side adepts, all of which could easily obliterate the Flood.

I'm not exactly what people would call a Halo fan.

Where would a Dark Trooper or a Purge Trooper rank compared to the Master Chief?

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
I'm not exactly what people would call a Halo fan.


I'll leave the rest for Gideon but you should give some of the halo books a look, my personal favorites are The Fall of Reach, The Ghosts of Onyx and Contact Harvest.

I actually might. Recently, I've shown a little bit more interest on Halo than I have before.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
I actually might. Recently, I've shown a little bit more interest on Halo than I have before.

Read the Fall of Reach or Contact Harvest first since both happen before the events of Halo 1.

LOL, I've not even played Halo 1, just 2 and 3.

I think I'll play no. 1 first and then I'll read the books.

Or viceversa.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
I'm not exactly what people would call a Halo fan.

Where would a Dark Trooper or a Purge Trooper rank compared to the Master Chief?

No idea.

On paper, they'd likely be better. But the Master Chief has the special status of SUPER PROTAGONIST.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
LOL, I've not even played Halo 1, just 2 and 3.

I think I'll play no. 1 first and then I'll read the books.

Or viceversa.

It depends, The Fall of Reach leads right up to the begining of Halo CE. So if you want some background Captain Keyes, Cortana, master chief,etc then read the book first.

I've yet to read Cole Protocol, but Contact Harvest was very good (as were the rest). It detailed the past of Johnson and, simultaneously, the Prophet of Truth's rise to power.

It did, however, confirm that the Covenant in its entirety only consisted of "billions."

Originally posted by Gideon
I've yet to read Cole Protocol,

Same here, I heard the book was good but not the best in the Halo universe. From I understand the spartans in Grey team are supporting characters in the novel and we find out the arbiter of halo 2/3's name.

And anything that features the sargent owns in my book.

It didn't say how high in the billions(ex 100 billion)?

No.

But I hope that seven species would comprise more than billions. Especially the Grunts.

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

But I hope that seven species would comprise more than billions. Especially the Grunts.

Same goes for the Drones. Though I believe the prophets only number in the thousands. According to halopedia the Lekgolo, which are worms/eel like creatures that live in colonies that make up the Hunters are most the most abundant species with numbers in the trillions,though it is not sourced I think that numbers is accurate. I don't think it contradicts the billions number because they live in colonies to create the hunter form and possibly others tat haven't been shown but that's another topic.