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Once again...there is misconception about our favorite speedster. But this blog might be of great help. Might also clear confusion.

http://www.4thletter.net/2006/09/flash-fact-jla-89/

Best analysis made by a fan (IMO)

That he has gone slightly under the speed of light?

Other little known facts of The Flash.


SBP is panic stricken of Flashes. He fears them for some reason.






The most obvious fact of Flash...

Every Crisis...involves The Flash.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Once again...there is misconception about our favorite speedster. But this blog might be of great help. Might also clear confusion.

http://www.4thletter.net/2006/09/flash-fact-jla-89/

Best analysis made by a fan (IMO) he wasn't going faster than light....sorry.

1) the light from the nuclear detonation arrived to "the camera" before the last person was dropped off, and as the writer stated there was an interval between their arrivals. and the fireball was almost in the stratosphere (notice the over heated cloud layer) again far before the arrival of the last survivor, that part of the explosion happens at least 5 seconds after the initial blast.

and 2) the writer clearly intended for him to be traveling UNDER light speed, kinda sullies their attempt at time keeping.

chalk it up to writer fvck up.

What the writer intends > basic math...

The plot and the artwork clearly shows the Flash evacuating the city in .000001 microseconds.

If the Flash was going anything less than the speed of light, they would have all died....

Joe Kelly simply had no conception of how fast Wally was going. He f'ed up on the math.


Wally was obviously going a ridiculous amount over the speed of light if he evacuated an entire city in .00001 microseconds making 70 mile round trips.

And that's not even the fastest thing Wally has ever done anyway....

Originally posted by Original Smurph
What the writer intends > basic math...


The writer intended that Wally evacuated an entire city in .00001 microseconds and made at least 250,000 roundtrips to a disclosed location 70 miles away.

We can either ignore this happened or we realize that the writer isn't the brightest bulb when it comes to math.

If Wally was traveling under the speed of light, the city would have perished.

Originally posted by Draco69
The writer intended that Wally evacuated an entire city in .00001 microseconds and made at least 250,000 roundtrips to a disclosed location 70 miles away.

We can either ignore this happened or we realize that the writer isn't the brightest bulb when it comes to math.

If Wally was traveling under the speed of light, the city would have perished. The writer intended for Wally to have done that, and to have done it travelling under the speed of light.

Does it make sense? Not even a little bit. But then, neither does Captain America punching out Hulk, and that still happened.

I've heard of it also being calculated that the manner in which Gwen Stacy fell wouldn't have snapped her neck- that doesn't mean we should ignore all the writing since then and pretend she's still alive.

he was traveling faster than the eye to perceive, not faster than light.

and

Originally posted by Original Smurph
What the writer intends > basic math...

Originally posted by Original Smurph
The writer intended for Wally to have done that, and to have done it travelling under the speed of light.

Does it make sense? Not even a little bit. But then, neither does Captain America punching out Hulk, and that still happened.

I've heard of it also being calculated that the manner in which Gwen Stacy fell wouldn't have snapped her neck- that doesn't mean we should ignore all the writing since then and pretend she's still alive.

Which he didn't. Joe Kelly even admitted the fcuk up as he had thought the feat was well under the capabilities of someone going under the speed of light. But when he realized that Flash was going ridiculously fast and obviously over the speed of light, he admitted the mistake and validated the feat.

The plot specifically states the time frame, distance, and parameters of the feat. Joe Kelly simply effed up on the math.

Again. This isn't a PIS feat like the ones you mentioned with Captain America or Spider-Man. Wally ran so damn fast he outran death and ran till the end of time. It was stated his speed was INFINITY....

Originally posted by Draco69
Which he didn't. Joe Kelly even admitted the fcuk up as he had thought the feat was well under the capabilities of someone going under the speed of light. But when he realized that Flash was going ridiculously fast and obviously over the speed of light, he admitted the mistake and validated the feat.

The plot specifically states the time frame, distance, and parameters of the feat. Joe Kelly simply effed up on the math.

Again. This isn't a PIS feat like the ones you mentioned with Captain America or Spider-Man. Wally ran so damn fast he outran death and ran till the end of time. It was stated his speed was INFINITY.... I don't doubt Wally's ability to go past light, and if you have an interview or something where Joe Kelly states that Flash was going over lightspeed in that instance, then that would change everything. Otherwise, the word of the writer (in this case, under lightspeed) overrides the math that we can do. To say otherwise is to choose one piece of written word over the other- who's to say that all the parameters of the feat were off and that Flash actually took far longer, but still only traveled under lightspeed?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
he was traveling faster than the eye to perceive, not faster than light.

and

Uh, no. What 'eye'? Who's watching him.

FACT: Flash evacuated more than two million people in .00001 microseconds making at least 250,000 round trips to a location 70 miles away.

No, if we go by your logic, the feat never happened and we'll ignore all this. But writer specifically stated that's what happened.

Joe Kelly later admitted he messed up on the math. (the guy barely graduated high school....)

Which again, isn't the fastest thing Wally has done. One time, he outran instantneous teleportation. From 120 lightyears away. I'm not even sure math can even calculate how fast Wally was moving....

Originally posted by Draco69
The plot and the artwork clearly shows the Flash evacuating the city in .000001 microseconds.

If the Flash was going anything less than the speed of light, they would have all died....



Exactly...the panels speak for themselves.

Here is the real thing that tingles my head noodle.

The story said 35 miles away....I'm wondering if Flash calculated that distance or he merely took a guess?

In this case his calculation of safety area and his speed made the feat more difficult to accomplish. So, I willing to say that not only did Flash made speed of light...but maybe even speed of thought (now that is my guess...not making conclusions)

Anywhoo...I'll dig for that issue...which I'm sure is somewhere in my pile of boxes.

Originally posted by Draco69
FACT: Flash evacuated more than two million people in .00001 microseconds making at least 250,000 round trips to a location 70 miles away.
FACT: He traveled under lightspeed

See how easy that is?

The only way one of those two facts change is if Joe Kelly or DC say so... otherwise, they're both equally true.

Originally posted by Draco69
It was stated his speed was INFINITY.... Except it isn't/wasn't.

Idk.

Wait what?

Originally posted by Original Smurph
I don't doubt Wally's ability to go past light, and if you have an interview or something where Joe Kelly states that Flash was going over lightspeed in that instance, then that would change everything. Otherwise, the word of the writer (in this case, under lightspeed) overrides the math that we can do. To say otherwise is to choose one piece of written word over the other- who's to say that all the parameters of the feat were off and that Flash actually took far longer, but still only traveled under lightspeed?

Well, I have about a paragraph of facts dictating what happened plus the actual artwork that clearly shows what happened.

You have only one sentence....

I'll take the former over the latter....

Originally posted by Draco69
FACT: Flash evacuated more than two million people in .00001 microseconds making at least 250,000 round trips to a location 70 miles away. Two million now?

Was that in the interview?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
So, I willing to say that not only did Flash made speed of light...but maybe even speed of thought (now that is my guess...not making conclusions) Wait, what? Is that sarcasm?

Originally posted by Draco69
Well, I have about a paragraph of facts dictating what happened plus the actual artwork that clearly shows what happened.

You have only one sentence....

I'll take the former over the latter.... You don't take either over the other, as they're both written word from the author.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
FACT: He traveled under lightspeed

See how easy that is?

The only way one of those two facts change is if Joe Kelly or DC say so... otherwise, they're both equally true.

Which he did. He admitted his mistake. He also had the Flash being quite literally two places at the same time at opposite ends of the globe. He was a major Flash wanker.

Originally posted by Draco69
Which he did. He admitted his mistake. He also had the Flash being quite literally two places at the same time at opposite ends of the globe. He was a major Flash wanker. I know Flash is way faster than sub-lightspeed, I'm just talking about this feat in question.

Anyways, any proof of this admission? I'd just like to see it, since this isn't the first time I've seen this feat be debated over. It'd be cool if something official was done about it.

Originally posted by Mindset
Except it isn't/wasn't.

Idk.

Wait what?

In order to outrun Black Flash, Flash's speed was infinity since he outran time. He outran everything.

Black Flash could run at any speed. Except infinity because Death isn't infinite.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
You don't take either over the other, as they're both written word from the author.

Well, if you wanna take the illogical over the logical than by all means.

However, in the versus forum, the blog is right.

Wally was going XXX times the speed of light because we rule out PIS. Much less the author's ignorance to the fact.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Wait, what? Is that sarcasm?

Trust me you will notice when I'm sarcastic.


Why are you underrating the feat?

Originally posted by Draco69
In order to outrun Black Flash, Flash's speed was infinity since he outran time. He outran everything.

Black Flash could run at any speed. Except infinity because Death isn't infinite. So he can reach infinite speed, but can't keep up with Zoom when amped by other flashes?

Death isn't infinite, what does that mean?

Originally posted by Original Smurph
I know Flash is way faster than sub-lightspeed, I'm just talking about this feat in question.

Anyways, any proof of this admission? I'd just like to see it, since this isn't the first time I've seen this feat be debated over. It'd be cool if something official was done about it.

You would have to go to the JLA boards and the Flash boards in the DC forums.

Flash fanboys were in uproar over the feat and Joe Kelly posted his apologies as he had no idea that Flash was actually moving that fast.


Writers such as Gail Simone and Kurt Busiek regularly post on the forums.

personally I think the KMC way of interpreting this event is to go by the numbers and feat...which means Flash was traveling at speeds vastly greater than light

KMC tends to snub writer intent since they give crap value to bios

bios are what set the intent for characters, after that writers can do whatever the hell they want with characters

if a 10 tonner lifts a tank that weighs over 60 tons, but since the writer didn't have a clue about what the tank weighs he wrote it like that. well on KMC, this character is now a class 60 because of this 'feat'...screw the fact that this guy was meant to be a class 10.

end rant.

Originally posted by Draco69
Well, if you wanna take the illogical over the logical than by all means.

However, in the versus forum, the blog is right.

Wally was going XXX times the speed of light because we rule out PIS. Much less the author's ignorance to the fact. Comics are based entirely around the illogical. They'd be pretty boring otherwise.

In the versus forum, the author's word is still right... you can call the feat PIS or not, doesn't change the final ruling on Flash's speed, which is under lightspeed.

Originally posted by Mindset
So he can reach infinite speed, but can't keep up with Zoom when amped by other flashes?

Death isn't infinite, what does that mean?

I don't know enough about Zoom. I would ask Galan.


Death isn't infinite has everything dies eventually. Light. Gravity. Everything. Nothing lasts forever. When everything dies, Death dies because that's the only the left to die.

Except Wally. He was infinite. He was running at infinite speed. So Death simply couldn't touch him.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Why are you underrating the feat? You seem to imply that speed of thought > C...

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Comics are based entirely around the illogical. They'd be pretty boring otherwise.

In the versus forum, the author's word is still right... you can call the feat PIS or not, doesn't change the final ruling on Flash's speed, which is under lightspeed.

Uh, no in the versus forum. The feat matters not the author. Especially when the math's right there on paper.

PIS ignored, as the rules state, Flash was going XXX times the speed of light.

Originally posted by Draco69
I don't know enough about Zoom. I would ask Galan.


Death isn't infinite has everything dies eventually. Light. Gravity. Everything. Nothing lasts forever. When everything dies, Death dies because that's the only the left to die.

Except Wally. He was infinite. He was running at infinite speed. So Death simply couldn't touch him. It was a rhetorical question.

Flash was still slower than Zoom after amping himself.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Comics are based entirely around the illogical. They'd be pretty boring otherwise.
there's a difference between illogical and inconsistent.

having a guy flying around may be illogical but that's fine for comics.

but having a guy lift 10000000 tons one day and struggle to lift something less than 100 tons another day just pisses me off.

Originally posted by Mindset
It was a rhetorical question.

Flash was still slower than Zoom after amping himself.

No idea why. I would ask Galen.


Seriously, nothing should be 'faster' than the Flash once he kicks it into high gear. Something can be 'as fast' but Flash is as fast as it gets.


I personally think it has to do with Geoff Johns, who writes brilliant stories but downplays the character's powers. Like Green Lantern.


Previously Flash was written by the likes of Grant Morrison and Mark Millar who've written the Flash as the speed god.

Originally posted by Starscream M
personally I think the KMC way of interpreting this event is to go by the numbers and feat...which means Flash was traveling at speeds vastly greater than light

KMC tends to snub writer intent since they give crap value to bios

bios are what set the intent for characters, after that writers can do whatever the hell they want with characters

if a 10 tonner lifts a tank that weighs over 60 tons, but since the writer didn't have a clue about what the tank weighs he wrote it like that. well on KMC, this character is now a class 60 because of this 'feat'...screw the fact that this guy was meant to be a class 10.

end rant. What are you talking about?

Originally posted by Draco69
I don't know enough about Zoom. I would ask Galan.


Death isn't infinite has everything dies eventually. Light. Gravity. Everything. Nothing lasts forever. When everything dies, Death dies because that's the only the left to die.

Except Wally. He was infinite. He was running at infinite speed. So Death simply couldn't touch him. Death was running faster than Wally though...

He was catching up to Wally...

you know what the real problem is if you accept that feat for Flash?

basically it makes Flash an unbeatable, god. Every opponent, even Superman or Silver Surfer moving at multiples light speed or close to it, would be complete statues to Flash were he capable of such speed. For him to lose would require readers to accept that Flash is a complete braindead moron.

basically, it's if Superman had a feat where he clapped his hands and the universe collapsed onto itself. If you were to accept such a feat, then if Superman were to lose to anyone short of Spectre, it would strike disbelief.

Originally posted by I'm Bran
What are you talking about?
you said writer's intent is > then what is actually shown on panel

so, for example, let's say a writer says Spiderman is a 10 tonner and then shows Spiderman lifting something well in the range of 100 tons.

Do you still limit Spiderman to class 10 or do you accept his feat and bump his strength class up based on the feat?

Originally posted by Starscream M
you said writer's intent is > then what is actually shown on panel

so, for example, let's say a writer says Spiderman is a 10 tonner and then shows Spiderman lifting something well in the range of 100 tons.

Do you still limit Spiderman to class 10 or do you accept his feat and bump his strength class up based on the feat? I didn't say that.

You brought up a point about bios being the concrete stuff though.

If it happens occasionally, then it simply isn't 10 tons, and if it's 10 tons based on a bio, then who gives a shit? If the same writer who says that Spider-Man is a 10 tonner has him lifting a 100 ton object, then it's unintentional, and most likely not usable (nevermind that Spider-Man would be lifting 100 tons...).

Originally posted by Starscream M
you said writer's intent is > then what is actually shown on panel

so, for example, let's say a writer says Spiderman is a 10 tonner and then shows Spiderman lifting something well in the range of 100 tons.

Do you still limit Spiderman to class 10 or do you accept his feat and bump his strength class up based on the feat? If Spiderman consistently lifts things 100 tons we go by that.

Originally posted by Mindset
If Spiderman consistently lifts things 100 tons we go by that. well, Thor doesn't consistently lift anything close to the midgard serpent yet I've seen that feat used often

Originally posted by I'm Bran
I didn't say that.

You brought up a point about bios being the concrete stuff though.

If it happens occasionally, then it simply isn't 10 tons, and if it's 10 tons based on a bio, then who gives a shit? If the same writer who says that Spider-Man is a 10 tonner has him lifting a 100 ton object, then it's unintentional, and most likely not usable (nevermind that Spider-Man would be lifting 100 tons...). ah sorry...I was actualy responding to Smurph

anyways, I agree with your assessment of the spiderman example

Originally posted by Starscream M
well, Thor doesn't consistently lift anything close to the midgard serpent yet I've seen that feat used often Thor has never had an established limit though either...

He's never really had trouble lifting anything, and even managed to lift the Midgard Serpent's 'paw' when he had a brittle spell placed on him.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
You seem to imply that speed of thought > C...

Flash CAN speed up his mind.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/ovllotni12.jpg

Originally posted by Starscream M
well, Thor doesn't consistently lift anything close to the midgard serpent yet I've seen that feat used often How is that the same situation?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Flash CAN speed up his mind.
Eh?
That didn't really answer his post...

Originally posted by I'm Bran
Thor has never had an established limit though either...

He's never really had trouble lifting anything, and even managed to lift the Midgard Serpent's 'paw' when he had a brittle spell placed on him. well I don't think most characters have an 'established' limit

their limit is known by their showings over time

I'd say thor's limit is around Hulk's initial angry strength since Hulk seems to be able to overpower Thor after awhile

meh...this all gets hard to quantify and compare

Originally posted by Starscream M
well I don't think most characters have an 'established' limit

their limit is known by their showings over time

I'd say thor's limit is around Hulk's initial angry strength since Hulk seems to be able to overpower Thor after awhile

meh...this all gets hard to quantify and compare When they massively exert themselves, or fail at lifting something, you got a limit.
Thor doesn't have that.

Sometimes. Sometimes he doesn't.

No doubt... you're comparing people with no limits established to Spider-Man, and then comparing him in some way to Flash...

Originally posted by I'm Bran
When they massively exert themselves, or fail at lifting something, you got a limit.
Thor doesn't have that.

Sometimes. Sometimes he doesn't.

No doubt... you're comparing people with no limits established to Spider-Man, and then comparing him in some way to Flash... so for you, thor's strength is infinite currently?

Originally posted by Starscream M
so for you, thor's strength is infinite currently? I never said that.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
You seem to imply that speed of thought > C... In comic logic it is actually flash said this himself

and wow this thread exploded

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Flash CAN speed up his mind.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/ovllotni12.jpg that's ****king retarded.

Originally posted by Starscream M
you know what the real problem is if you accept that feat for Flash?

basically it makes Flash an unbeatable, god. Every opponent, even Superman or Silver Surfer moving at multiples light speed or close to it, would be complete statues to Flash were he capable of such speed. For him to lose would require readers to accept that Flash is a complete braindead moron.

basically, it's if Superman had a feat where he clapped his hands and the universe collapsed onto itself. If you were to accept such a feat, then if Superman were to lose to anyone short of Spectre, it would strike disbelief.

surfer has moved far far far faster than that.

Originally posted by Starscream M
personally I think the KMC way of interpreting this event is to go by the numbers and feat...which means Flash was traveling at speeds vastly greater than light

KMC tends to snub writer intent since they give crap value to bios

bios are what set the intent for characters, after that writers can do whatever the hell they want with characters

if a 10 tonner lifts a tank that weighs over 60 tons, but since the writer didn't have a clue about what the tank weighs he wrote it like that. well on KMC, this character is now a class 60 because of this 'feat'...screw the fact that this guy was meant to be a class 10.

end rant.

that's not true at all.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
that's ****king retarded.

Indeed and one of the reasons why I've never been a fan of the Flash or any time controlling type characters.

Not a Vs thread...


Closing.

Wow, Smurph, I certainly didn't expect this from you.

Originally posted by Starscream M
so for you, thor's strength is infinite currently?

He said that Thor doesn't have an established limit.

Originally posted by Mindset
It was a rhetorical question.

Flash was still slower than Zoom after amping himself. Haven't you figured it out yet? Wally slows down/jobs for his badguys.
He needed ampage to reach lightspeed instantly, so he could he stop and go like Zoom, but he had already been doing that in his comics for some time.

Comics are just fantasy. But theres a point where BS needs to be called.

Originally posted by Anti-Monitor
Comics are just fantasy. But theres a point where BS needs to be called.

There is still no EXCUSE to call it retarded! that was just a stupid fanboy rant.

If Flash was flying or shooting Energy laster out of his eyes THEN that would out of a character's powers. He's obviously not doing that! He's performing a great skill within his powers. His powers happen to be on speed. So, no! It's not BS and is still valid for the character.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
There is still no EXCUSE to call it retarded! thats just stupid fanboy rants.

If Flash was flying or shooting Energy laster out of his eyes THEN that would out of a character's powers. He's obviously not doing that! He's performing a great skill within his powers. His powers happen to be on speed. So, no! It's not BS and is still valid for the character.

I aint calling this BS, but when ppl say Hulk is a skyfather and can take on the Big G than its BS.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
He said that Thor doesn't have an established limit. does any CL100 character have an established limit?

Originally posted by Anti-Monitor
but when ppl say Hulk is a skyfather and can take on the Big G thans its BS.

I'm with you here...that would be BS.

i love the flash...but i think the writers intent was to show wally saving people and going near light speed while doing it.....i dont think the numbers game is valid here...but its only my opinon

Originally posted by Starscream M
you know what the real problem is if you accept that feat for Flash?

basically it makes Flash an unbeatable, god. Every opponent, even Superman or Silver Surfer moving at multiples light speed or close to it, would be complete statues to Flash were he capable of such speed. For him to lose would require readers to accept that Flash is a complete braindead moron.

basically, it's if Superman had a feat where he clapped his hands and the universe collapsed onto itself. If you were to accept such a feat, then if Superman were to lose to anyone short of Spectre, it would strike disbelief.

Originally posted by Starscream M
does any CL100 character have an established limit?

The low class hundreds have a limit at 100 ton.

I think the whole bio strength classification system sucks.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Once again...there is misconception about our favorite speedster. But this blog might be of great help. Might also clear confusion.

http://www.4thletter.net/2006/09/flash-fact-jla-89/

Best analysis made by a fan (IMO)
Apparently this kid didn't go to school, as he's unaware of how to treat time, distance and relativistic velocity.

Time is bent when you approach the speed of light.

"He ran a total of 17,500,000 miles in one hundred-thousandth of a microsecond."

Lets use this statement and apply it to a logical formula.

Given:
d = 17,500,000 miles = (1,609,344 * 17,500,000) meters
t = 0,000,000,01 seconds

Find:
v

Solution:
c = 299792458 m/s

∆v = ∆d / ∆t = 1,609,344 * 17,500,000 / 0,000,000,01 = 2,816352 * 10^21 m/s

∆v = v / sqrt(1 - (v/c)^2) => v = sqrt =>

v = sqrt = 299792457,99999999999999... < c

According to Einstein Flash would be slower than light.

Originally posted by Juntai
I think the whole bio strength classification system sucks. i already explained it in another thread, it's a bell curve scale.

80-90% of characters have strength limits under the one hundred ton limit since the test is a dead lift press over one's head.

to set clear tiers they cap it at "100 tons", those in the upper echelon of strength exceed 100 tons mostly due to them being able to lift weights out of the realms of testing (i.e superman and hulk being able to move mountains).

also the "100 ton class" means that an individual can routinely lift 100 tons under earth gravity over their heads without the possibility of tiring,
further separating god like strength from just being super strong.

Originally posted by Astner


Time is bent when you approach the speed of light.

how do you assume that holds true in comics?

Originally posted by leonidas
heh. time dilation ftw.

Wurd. Special Theory of Relativity. Partner to the General Theory of Relativity.



For Mindship:

You wrote, "1. Assuming Flash carried two people at once, he made 250,000 70-mile roundtrips. That's 17,500,000 miles (so far so good). Now the blogger makes his first mistake: 17,500,000 miles x 100,000 x 3600 = 6,300,000,000,000,000"

Why the 'x 3600'? I haven't attempted to do the math. Looks like Astner already did so.

Originally posted by Starscream M
how do you assume that holds true in comics?

Flash uses Infinite Mass Punch. That uses the same principles as time dialation. As one approaches c, mass becomes close to infinite. Time slows down, as well, relative to an observer.

Originally posted by Starscream M
how do you assume that holds true in comics?
Because Flash uses the phenomena of relativity where mass increases as velocity does. He calls it the infinity mass punch.

EDIT: Enyalus beat me to it.

Half of the things Surfer does is bull i rarely complain about but the really impressive things Flash does gets bull shit stamps epic bias but thats cool.

Thats life.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Half of the things Surfer does is bull i rarely complain about but the really impressive things Flash does gets bull shit stamps epic bias but thats cool.

The writer says he went under light speed. The math confirms it.

I don't really see any bull. It's exactly as the writer intended.

Surfer covering over a lightyear's distance (at least 5.7 trillion miles) in about a second is often overlooked, too.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Half of the things Surfer does is bull i rarely complain about but the really impressive things Flash does gets bull shit stamps epic bias but thats cool. like what?

SS is a Cosmic, how is the stuff he does BS?

Seriously i have to write a bloody list? T-vo and the power cosmic both are ****ed up but i see peole saying t-vo is lame i consider that bias bull.

It Comics

in ss's case he can actually MANIPULATE time. nothing ss does is illogical based on his ludicrous powerset.

and while relativity holds true SOMETIMES for flash, sometimes it doesn't. infinite speed?? einstein would have an aneurysm . . .

it's still comics at the end of the day, but (at least in this case) the art and text confine the same thing.

It's writer error, plain and simple. Having said that, we can either:

a.) Choose to accept the verbage provided to us by the writer, which states that Wally was travelling at 'sub-c' when he accomplished that feat.

or..

b.) Break the numerics down mathematically also specified to us].

Either way is technically right, imo.

That is why I posted the bloggers notes and not the scan directly. It seems like the Blogger clock it right whereas the writer did a miscalculation.

As Draco said:

Originally posted by Draco69
The plot and the artwork clearly shows the Flash evacuating the city in .000001 microseconds.

The plot and artwork also clearly show, several times, that he was going sub-light speed.

That was obviously the writer's intent.

And I'd trust Astner's math over that blogger.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The writer says he went under light speed. The math confirms it.

I don't really see any bull. It's exactly as the writer intended.

Truth.

So, what's being argued over, exactly?

Originally posted by Soljer
What's being argued over, exactly?

The argument is that based on the time given, Flash's speed was something like 19 trillon times light speed.

We have the time it took Flash to evacuate the city, the way he did it, and how far he took them. So, we're just going to ignore these, because the writer did a stupid mistake and said he was going sub-lightspeed, when it's obvious he didn't ?

To each his own though.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And Astner's math confirms that there really is no conflict there. The blogger failed to take into account Einstein's STR.

facepalm

You're from herochat, right ?

Lulz i love this place

Originally posted by iceman24567
Lulz i love this place why?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
It seems to me that they want to ignore it.

DC should have just hired the blogger to the story and explain the feat.

Problem solved.

Or Jeph Loeb, he is going to need a new job soon.

isn't there a problem with accepting Astner's calculation...it would mean that you can't go faster than speed of light.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Would you like to explain your problem with it? my problem is that if we use STR, then characters can't go faster than speed of light.

Originally posted by Starscream M
my problem is that if we use STR, then characters can't go faster than speed of light.

Then it seems the writer and Einstein agree.

Originally posted by Enyalus
What's your problem?

Speedforce.

Applying Einstein to comics.

Idiots.

Originally posted by Starscream M
isn't there a problem with accepting Astner's calculation...it would mean that you can't go faster than speed of light.

Not true. As we've seen in the past, the speed force allows the Flash to utilize and ignore whatever laws of physics he pleases.

If he wants to go near-light without the extra mass, he can. If he'd rather allow his mass to approach the infinite in order to deliver a punch, he can.

If he wants to ignore time dilation and actually break the light barrier, he can, if he'd rather utilize that time dilation to make the tiny fraction of a microsecond enough time to evacuate the city, he can do that too.

The speedforce is a fix-all.

Originally posted by Soljer

If we're going to bring basic science into the discussion, why are we excluding somewhat more advanced science? because comics are aimed at casual readers with no expectation of science backgrounds and often written by writers with no science background of any kind

just because the laws of gravity (which the average laymen are familiar with) are followed in comics doesn't automatically mean that much more complex and theoretical scientific basis is also followed in comics.

Originally posted by Starscream M
because comics are aimed at casual readers with no expectation of science backgrounds and often written by writers with no science background of any kind

What kind of casual reader looks at the time it took to evacuate that city, looks at what the writer says, namely, that he went just under light speed to do it, and goes - no! That isn't right.

?

Originally posted by Soljer
Not true. As we've seen in the past, the speed force allows the Flash to utilize and ignore whatever laws of physics he pleases.

If he wants to go near-light without the extra mass, he can. If he'd rather allow his mass to approach the infinite in order to deliver a punch, he can.

If he wants to ignore time dilation and actually break the light barrier, he can, if he'd rather utilize that time dilation to make the tiny fraction of a microsecond enough time to evacuate the city, he can do that too.

The speedforce is a fix-all. so isn't Flash using the speedforce in that feat...hence applying Einstein's theory is unwarranted since the laws of physics no longer applied

if they did, everyone he transported would've been dust.

Originally posted by Starscream M
doesn't automatically mean that much more complex and theoretical scientific basis is also followed in comics.

I'm not even sure what the hell this clause means.

theoretical scientific basis is also followed...

I mean, I understand what you were trying to say, but I feel you failed miserably at that attempt.

Admirable try, though.

Originally posted by Enyalus
What kind of casual reader looks at the time it took to evacuate that city, looks at what the writer says, namely, that he went just under light speed to do it, and goes - no! That isn't right.

? they don't...hence why I don't think the writer had the special theory of relativity in mind when he wrote that feat

Originally posted by Starscream M
they don't...hence why I don't think the writer had the special theory of relativity in mind when he wrote that feat

Okay. So, what the writer says is taken at face value. He says Flash was sub-light during that run.

Official DC writers > Average Joe Blogger.

Originally posted by Starscream M
because comics are aimed at casual readers with no expectation of science backgrounds and often written by writers with no science background of any kind

just because the laws of gravity (which the average laymen are familiar with) are followed in comics doesn't automatically mean that much more complex and theoretical scientific basis is also followed in comics. not really, comics are technically science fiction. and i can't speak for everyone else but on first glance at the page in question, I already knew the flash was in fact NOT surpassing light speed regardless of the writer cosigning it.

a lot of new scientific technologies appeared in comics far before the military or the scientific community could create them. (i.e strength enhancing battle suits are still in the beginning phases currently, tony stark made his in the 60's)

You want me to apply this kind of theories to comics, and point out Superman and other trans-luminal must have infinite energy and such in order to reach lightspeed, and this is not even getting into them surpassing it ? The last thing on this comic's writer, and in fact in pretty much any other writers dealing with these type of (trans)lightspeed stuff, is Einstein's theory. And, you'd really have to be an idiot to try and rationalize it in comic context, especially since in this one there are also other factors such as the speedforce. As far as I recall, according to current science, lightspeed is the maximum speed attainable, so whatever calculations you do, unless there are very special conditions, with real-life formulas you won't find something surpassing it.

facepalm

What the f*ck is up with this stupidity invasion ?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Okay. So, what the writer says is taken at face value. He says Flash was sub-light during that run.

Official DC writers > Average Joe Blogger. for me, writer's intent trumps all

he intended for Flash to be sub-light speed

so even if he showed Flash doing something that everyone can agree with faster than light speed, we would have to dismiss the feat as mistake on the writer's part and accept Flash as sub-c

I think this thread is a clear example of stubborness trumping logic.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
how ironic.

Not really.

Originally posted by Starscream M
exactly.

if you want to use STR in comics, then nobody without some convenient explanation (magic, speedforce, etc) could go faster than light

so Superman, Gladiator, Silver Surfer and others who regularly on KMC are said to be faster than light all must be slower than or just as fast as light and many of their feats must be nullified as a result. bottom page bump

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not exactly. Anything with mass cannot travel beyond light speed. Massless objects, like photons, can.
so I guess Surfer also cannot travel beyond light speed then

^ not really.

even now science says that a rocket ship could go 99% of light speed in outer space, it's just that the fuel would equate to more than the planet could provide (and the time to reach that speed would be long)

surfer can destroy a planet with his own power and more, imo he has the juice to travel past lightspeed. (hyperspace rips provided )

Originally posted by psycho gundam
^ not really.

even now science says that a rocket ship could go 99% of light speed in outer space, it's just that the fuel would equate to more than the planet could provide (and the time to reach that speed would be long)

surfer can destroy a planet with his own power and more, imo he has the juice to travel past lightspeed. (hyperspace rips provided ) how does a rocket going 99% of light speed prove that Surfer could go faster than lightspeed?

Einstein's theory presupposes any matter going faster than light. Surfer is matter. hence if you want to apply Einstein's theory to comics, then Surfer cannot be traveling faster than light.

Whatever.

I'm not going to continue arguing due to some writer's momentary stupidity, on a topic I don't even care about.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not exactly. Anything with mass cannot travel beyond light speed. Massless objects, like photons, can.
Light can only travel in light speed--but theoretical particles with imaginary mass, tachyons, that travel beyond light speed.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
even now science says that a rocket ship could go 99% of light speed in outer space, it's just that the fuel would equate to more than the planet could provide (and the time to reach that speed would be long)
I thought light-sails was the current solution. You know when you have a great mirror reflecting photons (making them go from 299792458 m/s to -299792458 m/s) and by that accelerating with double the momentum of the light. It would take a long time, but the acceleration under a long period of time would give it a great velocity. They would have to work at the breaks though.

Originally posted by Soljer
Logic dictates that writer's word is law. actually just to nitpick, writer's intent is law. since writer's word in this case is contradictory. Both the sub-c comment and the actual feat are writer's words. We use writer's intent to determine which to accept.

Originally posted by Soljer
Logic dictates that writer's word is law.

Laws can be re-writen Soljer.

When will accept the fact the PC/Speedforce > Science?

Originally posted by Starscream M
actually just to nitpick, writer's intent is law. since writer's word in this case is contradictory. Both the sub-c comment and the actual feat are writer's words. We use writer's intent to determine which to accept.

And his intent, in this case, is quite clear.

Black and white, "sub lightspeed," multiple times.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
When will accept the fact the PS/Speedforce > Science

Of course it does. No one has a problem with the Flash exceeding c. He does it often.

Just not here.

Originally posted by Soljer
And his intent, in this case, is quite clear.

Black and white, "sub lightspeed," multiple times. yep

Originally posted by Soljer
Of course it does. No one has a problem with the Flash exceeding c. He does it often.

Just not here. just curious, but how do you square with applying STR in comics with characters without speedforce fix going faster than light? ie gladiator, surfer

Originally posted by Astner
Light can only travel in light speed--but theoretical particles with imaginary mass, tachyons, that travel beyond light speed.


I thought light-sails was the current solution. You know when you have a great mirror reflecting photons (making them go from 299792458 m/s to -299792458 m/s) and by that accelerating with double the momentum of the light. It would take a long time, but the acceleration under a long period of time would give it a great velocity. They would have to work at the breaks though. yeah, that's the newest stratagem since it requires pretty much no earth fuel (apart from the trip into space of coarse)

but the point i was trying to make is that surfer actually travels in hyperspace when he exceeds light speed, in hyper space objects can travel however fast they choose to. he is still bound to the laws of the universe as everything else is, he just has a means of circumventing it.

Originally posted by Starscream M
just curious, but how do you square with applying STR in comics with characters without speedforce fix going faster than light? ie gladiator, surfer

I don't.

I don't apply special relativity to comics. I was merely being a smart ass to those who insisted we calculate the specifics of the feat. If you really want to calculate it, might as well calculate it appropriately.

Further, as I said, the Flash has the ability to pick and choose what aspects of physics to utilize or ignore. Time dilation has come up before, as has mass expansion (though I can't recall an instance where length contraction has come up; I'd be interested to see it). Thus, it's quite possible that the Flash was utilizing the time dilation aspect of special relativity here.

It's more likely that the writer just didn't do the calculations, and didn't expect a 'casual' fan to do them, either. His intent was sub-c, therefore the feat is sub-c.

Of course, if someone happens to have a link to the interview in which he changed his mind and said "oh, no, he WAS going some trillion times c there, my bad," I'll be happy to change my mind.

Otherwise, that feat is clear in my mind. Hair's breadth of lightspeed.

cool

Originally posted by leonidas
in ss's case he can actually MANIPULATE time. nothing ss does is illogical based on his ludicrous powerset.

and while relativity holds true SOMETIMES for flash, sometimes it doesn't. infinite speed?? einstein would have an aneurysm . . .

it's still comics at the end of the day, but (at least in this case) the art and text confine the same thing.

Originally posted by Starscream M
just curious, but how do you square with applying STR in comics with characters without speedforce fix going faster than light? ie gladiator, surfer

i agree with soljer. and in in ss's case his powerset ALLOWS for manipulation of matter AND time. he can do whatever the hell he wants . . .

superman and gladiator fy via willpower--basically they can achieve whatever they BELIEVE they can achieve. similar to a GL.

i think most comic characters who can achieve ftl travel have at least some sort of explanation for the feat that allows for the usual amount of suspension of disbelief. is there a character who you can think of who achieves ftl WITHOUT at least some marginally "plausible" (in a comicbook sense) way of explaining it?

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree with soljer. and in in ss's case his powerset ALLOWS for manipulation of matter AND time. he can do whatever the hell he wants . . .

superman and gladiator fy via willpower--basically they can achieve whatever they BELIEVE they can achieve. similar to a GL.

i think most comic characters who can achieve ftl travel have at least some sort of explanation for the feat that allows for the usual amount of suspension of disbelief. is there a character who you can think of who achieves ftl WITHOUT at least some marginally "plausible" (in a comicbook sense) way of explaining it? well actually once soljer said he doesn't apply the theory of relativity, I was fine with the issue.

you really don't even need an explanation...since it is comics.

My point was that you shouldn't apply real science to comics because then it requires 'explanations' to square the two.

But if you accept comics as a place where our laws of physics and such don't apply, then you don't need special explanations.

^ too bad the human brain instinctual looks for logical explanations for what it perceives.

Originally posted by Starscream M
just curious, but how do you square with applying STR in comics with characters without speedforce fix going faster than light? ie gladiator, surfer

Gladiator and Surfer do this stuff in Marvel. I don't recall Marvel applying the STR, but they probably do. It's very clear that DC does. Oh, and, Surfer has the PC. Which is like the Speedforce in the way it allows people to ignore physics.

Let's look at the points against Flash going multiple times faster than light speed:

1. The writer states he didn't go light speed.

2. The writer reiterates it.

3. Writers of Flash comics use the STR all the time. See any issue with the Infinite Mass Punch for examples.

4. In that very picture, the writer uses STR: 'Eyes of almost infinite mass turn towards the blazing...'

5. Time dilation is used in Flash comics all the time. Anytime Flash enters 'Speed mode.' For example, between Flash 202-206 (forget exactly) Flash goes into speed mode and rescues a bunch of people out of their cars. He sees them as not moving at all. Even the raindrops are moving slowly. This is again demonstrated in Flash 230 (I think), when the Flashes attempt to take down Vandal Savage w/ The Summoner.

6. Time dilation is predicted by the STR. So once again, writers of Flash comics use it.



Points for Flash going multiple times light speed in that issue:

1. One blogger with no connection to DC at all miscalculating how fast Flash was going (as Mindship showed) and used the entirely wrong formula (as Astner showed.)



Flash proponents: Are you serious?

Originally posted by Starscream M
well actually once soljer said he doesn't apply the theory of relativity, I was fine with the issue.

you really don't even need an explanation...since it is comics.

My point was that you shouldn't apply real science to comics because then it requires 'explanations' to square the two.

But if you accept comics as a place where our laws of physics and such don't apply, then you don't need special explanations.

yeah, the issue of 'real' science in comics always leads to problems. fact is, writers do it to add a sense of realism to their stories. and as cool as it sounds at times, it can create problems. the forum was built to debate minutiae. part of the problem with the forum is that is carries these illogical debates to ludicrous and irremediable ends.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, the issue of 'real' science in comics always leads to problems. fact is, writers do it to add a sense of realism to their stories. and as cool as it sounds at times, it can create problems. the forum was built to debate minutiae. part of the problem with the forum is that is carries these illogical debates to ludicrous and irremediable ends. church!

You can use comic book logic or you can use Science


and good luck if your going to use scientific theory trying to explain some of these stuff that occur in comic books.


In my opinion science should only be used if the writers has given hints or using those theory to explain a characters powers and only than.

and you have to remember writers don't know their own characters limit and abilities{most of the time}. Or chooses to ignore it to make a better story

Also different writers doing the story at time will change "facts" about the character.

Real world science/laws always go hand in hand with fictional comics. Remember that everyone.

ermm

so this is basically, the writers intent vs physics. great, but its not a comic vs thread. moving to the comic book forum, if digi wants to leave it open, then fine...