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Force:
Saber:
All Out:

The Object of War is not to die for one's country, but to make the other son-on-a-***** die for his - George S. Patton

Has Caedus actually done anything impressive with the Force, like at all? I know his command of the Force was stated to be greater than that of Darth Vader, and I know all about his broad range of knowledge and all that, but in terms of power, what actually has he shown?

Traya, who's peers consisted of a planet eater and Force immortal, and who was actually pretty damn powerful herself, was pretty much in awe of Revan's power, and this even before he went on to amass a knowledge base that some would say is arguably one of the greatest ever for a being with his age and experience. I fail to see how Caedus at all compares to any of the top tier Force Users.

Originally posted by Taven
Has Caedus actually done anything impressive with the Force, like at all? I know his command of the Force was stated to be greater than that of Darth Vader, and I know all about his broad range of knowledge and all that, but in terms of power, what actually has he shown?

Traya, who's peers consisted of a planet eater and Force immortal, and who was actually pretty damn powerful herself, was pretty much in awe of Revan's power, and this even before he went on to amass a knowledge base that some would say is arguably one of the greatest ever for a being with his age and experience. I fail to see how Caedus at all compares to any of the top tier Force Users.

The fact that he was able to stick with Luke in their incredible duel. He is most certainly a top tier force user. His force potential mixed with his knowledge of esoteric force techniques makes him top tier.

What!!? How does surviving in a lightsaber duel grant you uber pwnage skills in the force?
To tell you the truth, Caedus hasn't done anything really impressive with the force in a duel, except redirect a speeder. In terms of force lightning, Revan has been shown (alluded) to have the power to kill, Caedus hasn't (vs Jaina). By pure stint of that I would say he is more powerful in the force, or at least more skilled in the lethal arts.
Obviously though, Revan loses the saber duel. Unknown and all that.

Anyway, Revan fights are dumb. No experience.

Originally posted by Taven
Has Caedus actually done anything impressive with the Force, like at all? I know his command of the Force was stated to be greater than that of Darth Vader, and I know all about his broad range of knowledge and all that, but in terms of power, what actually has he shown? I list a few but one or two might not be combat related. But it is still a good indicator of his power. (sort of like what Revan did the rakatan)

1. Jacen was able to "fix Leia's future," with that force vision in the Joiner King, so she was "destined to see it".That was something that Luke never heard of jedi doing (no duh) and Mara didn't like the idea of.
2.In the Swarm War he was able block/ricochet canon blasts from a Chiss dropships's turbolasers. It was noted "that was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before."
3.In Inferno, he was able cut Ben off from the force without him noticing then he was able to reconnect him to the force.
4. His ability to hide in the force even when he is standing in front of Luke and Mara.
5. Twice in Bloodlines, Caedus used force illusions to hide Lumiya 's identity/force presence right in front of Luke so he could only "faintly" detect her but he had no idea she was actually standing a few feet from him.
6.His use of shatterpoint in Invincible.

I could list a few more if you techniques if you want to see them.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
In terms of force lightning, Revan has been shown (alluded) to have the power to kill, Caedus hasn't (vs Jaina). By pure stint of that I would say he is more powerful in the force, or at least more skilled in the lethal arts.
In fairness however, the rakatan aren't force sensitive and Jaina is powerful in the force. I still think Revan had more sith knowledge than Caedus (who hada broader knowledge overall) but that doesn't help much if we don't know some of the technqiues he learned. Wait why haven't we had a lot of Jaina Solo threads since Invincible came out?

By the way, Caedus demonstrates a proficiency with illusions that surpasses Luke's own skill in the Dark Nest trilogy, deceiving (and by Luke's own admission, "manipulating him" into believing Mara was injured in battle.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
In terms of force lightning, Revan has been shown (alluded) to have the power to kill, Caedus hasn't (vs Jaina).Revan has shown the ability to kill non-Force-sensitives with his lightning. A battered, eighteen year-old Jacen almost killed Vergere - a Jedi Knight and former apprentice of the Sith - and brought down a ceiling with his in Traitor.

That's a terrible assumption.

Originally posted by Gideon
By the way, Caedus demonstrates a proficiency with illusions that surpasses Luke's own skill in the Dark Nest trilogy, deceiving (and by Luke's own admission, "manipulating him" into believing Mara was injured in battle.

but by the end of legacy I think it's pretty clear that Luke's skills surpass Jacens...............and NOT because Jacen is dead.

Even with as little as we know of Reva, I'd give this to Caedus.

I think its already been argued and established that Force Sensitives don't have innate resistence to FL. Unless I'm mistaken Jaina wasn't blocking or resisting when he hit her with FL, so pretty much they were operating under the same circumstances. Revan Killed (multiple opponents), Caedus Didn't.



Did she even attempt to stop him? Did she try blocking him? I actually checked this on Wookieepedia and it would appear that this happened off page, so we have no idea of what actually happened.



Yes, this is impressive. I'd still like some more info on that scene but that is good. And yet he still couldn't kill or at least incapacitate his sister with it.



It's not an assumption when its supported by facts and logic, its an analysis. And mine says Revan is better at FL then Caedus.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I think its already been argued and established that Force Sensitives don't have innate resistence to FL. Unless I'm mistaken Jaina wasn't blocking or resisting when he hit her with FL, so pretty much they were operating under the same circumstances. Revan Killed (multiple opponents), Caedus Didn't.The circumstances weren't remotely similar. On one hand, you have Revan killing an unknown number of primitive tribal warriors with his lightning. On the other, you have several instances of Jacen - both as a young Jedi and an older Sith - using his lightning directly against a Force-sensitive individual.

Sure we do.

There was far more than I'd remembered:



I could provide more passages detailing how completely ruined Vergere was by the burst of lightnign that strick her, but I find Jacen's effect on the environment and the Vong to be more interesting.




This would be why:





Those were the only two instances he used his lightning against his sister, and she used her lightsaber - that thing alongside the Force that the Rakatans didn't have - to block it. I could post examples of him telekinetically owning her.

And keep in mind that in his final duel with Jaina, he was fighting with one arm, was still suffering from wounds obtained earlier, and had just had a lightsaber shoved through his gut. He also tried to walk away from the duel, hurling Jaina away and attempting to leave. And still at the end of the duel, the best Jaina could hope to accomplish was take Jacen out in a kamikaze strike; if he hadn't lowered his weapon to warn his wife, he would've killed his sister.

It's supported by neither facts nor logic.

^ Also of note in his duels with Jaina, is the fact that he could only shoot lightning at her with his one remaining arm. He could do a lot more harm to her in this scene (from their first duel) if he had both arms.

Caedus deactivated his lightsaber and let it drop between them. Jaina felt the beskad begin to bite, then her brother's palm sank deep into the pit of her stomach. In the next instant she was riding a bolt of Force lightning across the chamber, her muscles cramping, her teeth grinding, her ears roaring with the fiery sizzle of burning synapses.

A full second later, she slammed into a durasteel wall and felt a terrible popping in her ribs, then dropped to the floor, still holding her lightsaber and the beskad. The Force lightning had died away, but her muscles remained useless aching knots, and the stench of scorched flesh was so powerful she wanted to retch. Instead, she tried to rise-and succeeded only in sparking a dozen different kinds of pain.

Across the chamber, her brother was in little better shape. He sat slumped in a half-collapsed chair, his remaining hand clamped over the stump of his missing arm, his thigh wound dripping blood onto the floor. His yellow eyes were staring at Jaina more in confusion than rage, and his head was cocked as though he could not quite believe what he was seeing.

The circumstances are very similar if none of the time Caedus used it was actually resisted. Just being Force-sensitive doesn't mean you can tank Force Lightning.



I'm becoming more impressed by Jacen but the fact remains that Revan can produce lethal effects and Jacen can't, or, at least, hasn't. There also isn't any evidence that Vergere tryed to block the lightning or dampened it even a little.




Again Impressive, but this is actually what appears to be Force whirlwind or simple TK, 'A shrug of wind'. Nothing in here says anything about Jacens proficientcy with FL.





I'm confused, this wasn't the instance I had in mind.



Yeah, Caedus totally outclasses his sister. And he's one tough Mother, but no living Human can shrug of lethal levels of electricity and just keep coming.



A-HA! This was the one I was thinking of, here's where he hits her with FL and fails to kill her. While now I can see that he's not exactly 100%, his lightning is still not even enough to incapacitate her, while Revan used it to kill multiple Rakatan. A concentrated blast against just Caedus would be alot more powerful than the spread-out version/reserved version.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
A-HA! This was the one I was thinking of, here's where he hits her with FL and fails to kill her. While now I can see that he's not exactly 100%, his lightning is still not even enough to incapacitate her, while Revan used it to kill multiple Rakatan. A concentrated blast against just Caedus would be alot more powerful than the spread-out version/reserved version.

Not exactly a hundred percent? He just got an arm amputated (plus other unarmed and maybe force hits I believe) and still almost incapacitated her, with two arms that would be double the arcs of lightning coming at Jaina I don't see her being conscious at the very least.

I'm going out for a while and then doing some hw so I might be on later tonight to reply to your reply.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The circumstances are very similar if none of the time Caedus used it was actually resisted.You don't know under what circumstances Revan killed the scouting parties, Exodus, nor do we know how many he killed. Or for that matter, whether he used one or both hands (weird, I know).

The one thing we do know is that he certainly didn't do it with one arm freshly blown off, a shoulder wound, a thigh wound leaking onto the floor, and while under the astounded impression that he was fighting the greatest swordsman in history. This would be ignoring every other injury he acquired from blasterfire or the concussive effects of being hurled through a row of seats, nor does it factor in the unhealed wounds he'd sustained before the battle.

I'll try to find more.

She was still just about dead. Her robes and flesh had been literally burnt, and she was a crumpled heap against the wall rasping out her sermon to Jacen. That after he violently regained his connection to the Force, and while he was a teenager.

Thirteen years later, and now more powerful than even Darth Vader, I think it goes without saying that he would've obliterated her.

I know. But it was still incredible, and speaks to his Force-prowess as a whole when he was just eighteen.

My mistake. I passed over the first duel.

Luke Skywalker can. Palpatine can. Galen Marek can. Talon can. If you're willing to stretch the definition of "human" a little, Maul can, too.

And considering what Caedus has walked through in the past, I don't think it'd be a stretch at all to say he could tank almost anyone's Force-lightning.

No where did it mention that Jacen was able to summon a Force Storm. With all the collected knowledge of the Sith, Revan would be more than a match for Caedus. Sure any nitwit can summon FL - Zekk, Kyp, Jaina, Jacen, Tahiri & Luke. Probably Alema Rar went she went mad too. Too call on the dark side to creat a FS, that takes a shitload of power.

Revan was a true Sith Lord. Caedus wasn't. Did he kill his Master? Nope. Did Caedus kill his pathetic excuse of an apprentice? Nope. How many fully trained Jedi did he actually kill? Two I believe. How many Jedi did Caedus turn to the dark side? One - well sort of. Ben "saved" Tahiri. Revan was able to turn hundreds of Jedi and twist them according to his will during the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. Was Revan distracted by outside influences? Nope. Was Caedus? Yes. He constantly worried about Tenal Ka and Allana. A true Sith wouldn't give a shit about who got in their way.

In short, Caedus would be able to take a lightsaber duel. Revan takes the last two.

You are nuts. Revan would not beat Caedus in an all-out fight. Are you suggesting that a criteria for being a DLoTS is turning mass people to the dark side? I don't think that Bane or Vader turned many to the darkside, did they? They must not be true DLoTS'.

Jesus H. Christ, this is why I hate KotOR.

Look, there's only one real type of Force Storm and that is the hyperspace wormhole, a rip in the space/time continuum, summoned by Emperor Palpatine and only Emperor Palpatine; Darth Revan nor Darth Caedus are capable of wielding it.

The "Force storm" from the KotOR games is simply an elevated version of Sith lightning. Nothing particularly special. Bane was able to do that in a couple of hours.


Edit: I have to agree with Darth Truculent. Caedus isn't a Sith Lord; he's a complete joke. But the reason I proclaim Caedus to be a wannabe Sith is because the true Sith Order died at Endor. All subsequent "Sith" are pretenders.

Revan created the "One Master - One Apprentice. One to embody the power, the other to crave it"

The Force is stronger than a lightsaber. Revan would annihilate Caedus in a duel of the Force. Why do I say Revan takes all out? Revan would wear Caedus down in the Force. Revan has all the collected knowledge of the Sith. Caedus in my opinion was only partially a Sith. Lumiya was not a true dark lady of the Sith. Kyp would be able to kick her ass.

Caedus FL is not as strong as Revan's. Revan is able to use a FS. For some unknown reason, Lumiya never trained Caedus in the use of FS because she didn't know it. Neither did Vader. Sidious probably knew FS because he was the strongest Sith (maybe), but he didn't teach it to Dooku or Vader. Strange isn't it?

Caedus only received partial training in the dark side. Shadow Academy and Lumiya. He didn't complete it because he didn't kill Lumiya. Luke did. Sure, he killed Mara who was a JM, but that doesn't make him special. Revan collected all of the knowledge of the Sith and learned it because he craved it's power. He despised weakness due to the Mandalorian Wars. Caedus never went to Korriban or Malachor. He was perfectly content to stay aboard the Anakin Solo. Malak was a far better apprentice than Tahiri. Tahiri felt bad about killing. At least Malak tried to kill Revan. Malak was ruthless. A true Sith has to be ruthless. Caedus should have been willing to kill Tenel Ka & Allana. Caedus wasn't.

Revan killed far more Jedi than Caedus. On Korriban he fought his way to destroy his former apprentice and succeeded. Caedus didn't - he stopped fighting Jaina and allowed himself to be killed. Revan never would have let that happen. That is why Caedus would never win. He isn't ruthless enough. He wasn't a true Sith - just another dark side user. Like Zekk once was.

I'd love it if you could do us all the honor of actually providing evidence for your (bullshit) claims.

He He, I've just remembered something. The fact that Caedus was in such a bad way, that he had such terrible injuries actually helps my argument. While normally these things would work against a force user, Caedus isn't normal. As Luke puts it,' Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster'. So therefore it could be theorised that Jacen might actually have been as strong if not even stronger than he normally is. So he could well have been at 100%.

And even if Caedus' double hands lightning could kill, it still isn't as impressive as Revan's. Revan would have had to use double the power to kill at least (and it is at least) two Rakatan then it would take for Caedus to kill one person.



Probably, Yeah.



It is rather Starkiller-esque. I'm now leaning towards Caedus taking about 3-4 Force duels out of 10.



No, 'lethal' levels of electricity are around 3000 volts. No human can live beyond this point no matter how well conditioned. This level of voltage can stop the heart, the lungs, cause internal burns, respiratory arrest and neuropathy and severely damage to the brain.

Those guys above obviously weren't hit with this level of power. I don't know about the others but Luke, even though he survived was extremely F'd up afterwards.



I know you're on my side but yes it does. 'He remembered the wild joy of release as the power of the storm had roared into him and through him and became a mad vortex within the underground chamber, lifting stone and brick and chunks of duracrete to whirl and batter and slash the Yuuzhan Vong, pounding the warriors with pieces of the planet that had once been Jacen's home. A shrug of wind had crushed the Yuuzhan Vong into one corner of the chamber, and he remembered bubbling laughter exploding with malice into a shout of victory as he had reached up his hand and brought down the building around them.

And no offence, but the rest of your post doesn't state anything about power. Malak was a 'true sith' and yet Caedus would beat the flemy crap out of him.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
He He, I've just remembered something. The fact that Caedus was in such a bad way, that he had such terrible injuries actually helps my argument. While normally these things would work against a force user, Caedus isn't normal. As Luke puts it,' Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster'. So therefore it could be theorised that Jacen might actually have been as strong if not even stronger than he normally is. So he could well have been at 100%.There's a difference between being in pain and being virtually incapacitated. After Caedus floored her with lightning, Jaina couldn't even stand up properly. She looked at her brother and noted that he wasn't faring much better - being almost unable to even pick oneself up isn't very good - and she could see utter confusion in his eyes. He was not at full strength.

This actually brings up another issue: time. We have no idea how long it took Revan to kill the warriors with his lightning, but we do know that Caedus only electrocuted Jaina for a moment.

Oh, and prove that Revan is at or even close to Jacen's level of power. The latter was more powerful than Darth Vader, and by extension, approaches OT Sidious - the most powerful dark-sider in the mythos - in overall power.

I have no idea whatsoever how you could come to that conclusion. All else aside, you know next to nothing about Revan's ability with the Force.

Welcome to Star Wars; Bane takes hits of "millions" of volts, twice, with the energy being his own lightning the second time.

And yet he was able to not just walk, but drag his several hundred-pound father with him all the way to the docking bay.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Revan created the "One Master - One Apprentice. One to embody the power, the other to crave it"

The Force is stronger than a lightsaber. Revan would annihilate Caedus in a duel of the Force. Why do I say Revan takes all out? Revan would wear Caedus down in the Force. Revan has all the collected knowledge of the Sith. Caedus in my opinion was only partially a Sith. Lumiya was not a true dark lady of the Sith. Kyp would be able to kick her ass.

Caedus FL is not as strong as Revan's. Revan is able to use a FS. For some unknown reason, Lumiya never trained Caedus in the use of FS because she didn't know it. Neither did Vader. Sidious probably knew FS because he was the strongest Sith (maybe), but he didn't teach it to Dooku or Vader. Strange isn't it?

Caedus only received partial training in the dark side. Shadow Academy and Lumiya. He didn't complete it because he didn't kill Lumiya. Luke did. Sure, he killed Mara who was a JM, but that doesn't make him special. Revan collected all of the knowledge of the Sith and learned it because he craved it's power. He despised weakness due to the Mandalorian Wars. Caedus never went to Korriban or Malachor. He was perfectly content to stay aboard the Anakin Solo. Malak was a far better apprentice than Tahiri. Tahiri felt bad about killing. At least Malak tried to kill Revan. Malak was ruthless. A true Sith has to be ruthless. Caedus should have been willing to kill Tenel Ka & Allana. Caedus wasn't.

Revan killed far more Jedi than Caedus. On Korriban he fought his way to destroy his former apprentice and succeeded. Caedus didn't - he stopped fighting Jaina and allowed himself to be killed. Revan never would have let that happen. That is why Caedus would never win. He isn't ruthless enough. He wasn't a true Sith - just another dark side user. Like Zekk once was.

^most epic post ever posted on the internet.

Originally posted by Taven
^most epic post ever posted on the internet.

Did you really never read any of BOOG's posts? They were more epic fail than this one is.

BOOG was funny, what happened to him?

Well I don't know about this BOOG guy but the epic SW Legend level of smooth talking in that post was just insane.

Caedus in my opinion was only partially a Sith. Lumiya was not a true dark lady of the Sith. Kyp would be able to kick her ass.

Caedus only received partial training in the dark side. Shadow Academy and Lumiya. He didn't complete it because he didn't kill Lumiya. Luke did.

A true Sith has to be ruthless. Caedus should have been willing to kill Tenel Ka & Allana. Caedus wasn't.

That is why Caedus would never win. He isn't ruthless enough. He wasn't a true Sith - just another dark side user. Like Zekk once was.

Siriusly.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
The Force is stronger than a lightsaber.

That is not always the case. See Anakin vs Dooku, Dooku had a much greater mastery of the force then Anakin. Luke vs Vader, here Vader had a much a greater master then Luke who barely had any training but Vader couldn't overcome Luke's DS onslaught.

Annihilate? Revan may have a chance to win a force duel (though I'd still give Caedus the advantage) but it would be far from annihilation.


Because.......


Where the hell are you getting this bs? Show me proof that Revan collected all of the sith knowledge out there. While Revan may have more sith techniques (that we know next to nothing about) Caedus spent 5 years studying the force from various force organizations in the galaxy.



Gideon addressed FS vs FL already.

If you know anything about Sidious,then no it isn't.


He may know less sith techniques, but it doesn't give Revan a win because Caedus has shown more variety in techniques that are useful in battle.


Once again, where is this bs that Revan learned all of the sith knowledge out there coming from?


Despising weakness doesn't mean shit, lots of character despise weakness what is your point? And Revan never spent 5 years amongst other force organizations of the galaxy, he has a broader knowledge in the force.


Where the hell are you getting this shit from. It was noted by GAG members that he was in the front lines of the terrorist raids on Coruscant. Look at him in the early books of the LOTF series, he was always on the front lines even in space battles. I could easily turn this around and say that Darth Revan isn't noted for his strength on the battlefield but for his tactics/strategies. So how many times was he on the front lines?


This has nothing to do with personal power so this means nothing.



Great Revan killed a bunch of no name jedi, while Caedus was busy fighting/injuring Luke Skywalker among others.



Once again this has nothing to do with personal prowess, Caedus wanted to save the life of his daughter by warning Tenel Ka since she was with her. If you are trying to suggest that Revan wouldn't do the same for Bastila then your out of your mind. [

Isn't ruthless? Your talking about a guy who went to extreme measures to keep his relationship to Tenel Ka and Allana secret. Look at what he did to Tenel Ka's grandmother, Ben Skywalker, what he was willing to do Lumiya to keep the secret. If you read DN trilogy and LOTF then you would know that this isn't true.

And this "just another dark side user," has demonstrated more force abilites than Revan has. Oh and I agree with Gideon's reasoning of Caedus not being a true sith.

^I lol'd at that Taven, it is only a matter of time till Legend graces up with his perspective of this battle.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
BOOG was funny, what happened to him?
He probably got wacked on the mean streets....of wherever he is from in Florida.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Revan created the "One Master - One Apprentice. One to embody the power, the other to crave it"

The Force is stronger than a lightsaber. Revan would annihilate Caedus in a duel of the Force. Why do I say Revan takes all out? Revan would wear Caedus down in the Force. Revan has all the collected knowledge of the Sith. Caedus in my opinion was only partially a Sith. Lumiya was not a true dark lady of the Sith. Kyp would be able to kick her ass.

Caedus FL is not as strong as Revan's. Revan is able to use a FS. For some unknown reason, Lumiya never trained Caedus in the use of FS because she didn't know it. Neither did Vader. Sidious probably knew FS because he was the strongest Sith (maybe), but he didn't teach it to Dooku or Vader. Strange isn't it?

Caedus only received partial training in the dark side. Shadow Academy and Lumiya. He didn't complete it because he didn't kill Lumiya. Luke did. Sure, he killed Mara who was a JM, but that doesn't make him special. Revan collected all of the knowledge of the Sith and learned it because he craved it's power. He despised weakness due to the Mandalorian Wars. Caedus never went to Korriban or Malachor. He was perfectly content to stay aboard the Anakin Solo. Malak was a far better apprentice than Tahiri. Tahiri felt bad about killing. At least Malak tried to kill Revan. Malak was ruthless. A true Sith has to be ruthless. Caedus should have been willing to kill Tenel Ka & Allana. Caedus wasn't.

Revan killed far more Jedi than Caedus. On Korriban he fought his way to destroy his former apprentice and succeeded. Caedus didn't - he stopped fighting Jaina and allowed himself to be killed. Revan never would have let that happen. That is why Caedus would never win. He isn't ruthless enough. He wasn't a true Sith - just another dark side user. Like Zekk once was. Your speech is full of opinions. Provide some sources for Revan's superiority over Caedus. Oh, wait... there are none.

Gideon - "One Master - One Apprentice" see first Darth Bane novel.

Caedus never completed his Sith training if you examine it closely. His training was similar to Vader's - Vader couldn't summon a FS or FL. Nor did Caedus have a formal teacher. He didn't have the collected knowledge of the Sith. If you read the LOTF books, Jacen/Caedus was constantly paranoid for the well being of his daughter. Throughout the series, Caedus restrained his anger except for a few instances. And please tell me, other than Vader has anyone ever heard of a Sith Lord sacrificing themself?

Revan understood what it meant to be Sith. Caedus understood the Sith Code and the way of the Sith is pain. Except I think he didn't fully understand it. He didn't understand that betrayal is also the way of the Sith. Maybe he knew that in order for Tahiri to become a Dark Lady, she would have to kill him. I do not believe Caedus would take that risk. In order for the Sith to remain strong, they must weed out the weak. Revan understood this and so did Malak. They saw the Mandalorians as weak and the Jedi of the era were pathetic as well.

Caedus was obsessed with pain, but when confronted with psychological warfare (Allana and betrayal) he folded like a bad poker player.

How does that have anything to do with how powerful they are in battle?
Caedus ftw.

I forgot to mention ruthless - being ruthless is indiscrimently killing civilians during wartime. Revan and Malak also understood this type of warfare. Revan and Malak waged total war and didn't care who got killed. Typical warfare has you destroy your target and try to minimize civilian causalties. Revan didn't care - he wanted to destroy the enemy's ability to fight and demoralize it's people. Malak learned that from his teacher. The Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War made the 2nd Galactic Civil War look like a border skirmish.

Nobody Jedi? I can see your argument. You make a valid point, but each Jedi killed or turned is a serious blow to the Order. Revan and Malak waged a war of attrition and the Jedi lost. The more soldiers you lose, the less ability to wage war is greatly diminished.

On to the topic of Bastilla - she had Revan outnumbered 4 -1 when Malak attempted to kill Revan. Bastilla saw the potential for Revan's redemption and brought him before the Council where they erased his memory. Revan thus "turned" back to the light side. If Malak didn't attempt to kill him, then it is quite probably he would have killed Bastilla. Again, that part is for speculation.

Elite Hunter - I can always count on your honest opinions. A good valid argument. But, Revan left for the Unknown Regions and the true Sith Empire. He also killed his apprentice who was far more Sith than Caedus could ever have been. What I mean by "perfectly content stay aboard the Anakin Solo" was that he was an armchair Admiral. He used long range turbolaser batteries instead of going for the kill. He didn't trade broadside for broadside. Although his battle awareness was masterful, no battle plan survives in the face of the enemy. As one of my military friends says "tracers work both ways."

He fought and injured the greatest Jedi Master - Luke Skywalker. Quite an accomplishment, but didn't Shimrra nearly kill Luke without the aid of the Force? Luke had Jacen/Caedus at his mercy when Ben distracted him. Elite Hunter, you have the uncanny ability for real good rebuttals. Your opinion?

Revan is a virtual unknown, however, we can agree on one thing. Revan's knowledge of the force vastly exceeds that of Vader's. Revan's mastery of the force is also superior to Vader's so while we know Caedus is more powerful than Vader according to Invincible, we can surmise that Revan is also. Faunus, if you're asking someone to prove that Revan is superior to Caedus, you'll have to do the same with Caedus being superior to Revan. We know Revan's force knowledge exceeds Caedus' as well.

I don't know about Elite Hunter, but I think that Shimraa hurt Luke because Luke was poisoned. Also, Darth Caedus inflicted more damage on Luke in Inferno than anyone else had before. (I could be mistaken though) I don't think Revan would fair as well against Luke as Caedus did..

I'm not entirely sure but I think that the Darth Bane novels state that the more in tune a person is too the dark-side, the stronger in the dark that person will become. This is only baseless speculation, but if it's true then Truculent's arguments could have some merit. Though I would hazard a guess that he wasn't actually aware of this point.

We all agree that Caedus was powerful - nearly on the same level with Luke, but not quite. When Luke was injured by Shimmra he was still able to summon the Force and decapitate him. If it was Revan fighting Shimmra, I don't Revan would have wasted his time in a long drawn out lightsaber battle. Shimrra would have been hit a massive blast of FL and I'm pretty sure there would have been a huge exit wound.

From what I've read, Caedus is the better lightsaber artist and Revan would definitely lose. With the Force, Revan would probably unleash it like a Pit Bull in Michael Vick's house and Caedus would lose. Revan takes the last two because of his experience in combat. Sure Jacen/Caedus fought thet YV & Killicks, but has he fought multpile Mandalorians? No. During the YV War, he was nearly reluctant to kill. Revan wasn't. To be Sith, you absolutely cannot have the hesitation to kill. Why did Jacen/Caedus seem to have a conscious?

To further make a point, Caedus never waged a total war. Revan and Malak did. Revan knows the definition of war and how to fight it. Back to strength in the Force. It would be a good duel in the Force between Revan and Caedus, but Caedus would lose.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Revan is a virtual unknown, however, we can agree on one thing. Revan's knowledge of the force vastly exceeds that of Vader's.

First you "agree" that Revan's Force knowledge exceeds Vader's. Proof? Vader studied under the GREATEST SITH EVA1111(ONE!) He had access to more knowledge than any other Sith in history, with the exception of Palpatine. I can not prove that he actually studied all of it, but would someone searching for power really ignore the chance for more?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Revan's mastery of the force is also superior to Vader's so while we know Caedus is more powerful than Vader according to Invincible, we can surmise that Revan is also.
1. You were talking about Revan already. To say that he is 'also' superior to Vader is not correct. This was clearly a slip up, but when you are trying to one-up everyone who has already posted I suggest you get it right.
2. On what grounds are you surmising that Revan is also more powerful than Vader? Earlier you "agreed" to think so, but consensus is not proof. Before Copernicus (and even after) *everyone* thought that the Sun revolved around the earth. This was false. What the majority thinks (or what words you place into the majority's mouth) is irrelevant. Prove that Revan > Vader or kindly be quiet.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Faunus, if you're asking someone to prove that Revan is superior to Caedus, you'll have to do the same with Caedus being superior to Revan. We know Revan's force knowledge exceeds Caedus' as well.
This was almost clever. You tacked on your baseless assertion to the challenge so that is looked like it was part of the facts. You have no ground to stand on if you want to argue that Revan's Force knowledge exceeds Caedus's. Caedus was once described as a "total master of the Force." Out of universe narration. Suck it. Do you have a source detailing Revan's Force mastery? Is he a "total master of the Force?" No? Then you have nothing. You are simply wrong. Caedus is better than Revan in every way.

The feats he has displayed with the Force surpass anything that Revan dreamed of, and he is the second best duelist in a time period that included Luke frikkin Skywalker and Kyp/Kyle I have the same name Durron/Katarn. Caedus is a beast. He is just about the best that the Mythos has to offer. (DE Palpatine/DBZ Luke notwithstanding.) He dwarfs Revan. The comparrison wouldn't even be attempted if not for the widespread Revan wankery that Drew and crew have accomplished.


Revan is nothing.
...

@DT:

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
We all agree that Caedus was powerful - nearly on the same level with Luke, but not quite. When Luke was injured by Shimmra he was still able to summon the Force and decapitate him. If it was Revan fighting Shimmra, I don't Revan would have wasted his time in a long drawn out lightsaber battle. Shimrra would have been hit a massive blast of FL and I'm pretty sure there would have been a huge exit wound.
Your conjecture that Revan would have fared better against the Vong =/= canon.

Revan and Luke have very different methodologies, the most noteworthy difference being the whole "I'm not going to be EVIL" problem that Luke has. Luke didn't rush up and FL spam Shimirra, and it would've been a boring book if he'd use EJ to end the whole series without a fight. PIS/CIS takes the blame for this one. On top of this we can add the fact that while Revan was freaking out about not being able to sense the Vong through the force they would have killed him seven ways from sunday. (I know... sorry.)
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

From what I've read, Caedus is the better lightsaber artist and Revan would definitely lose.
What exactly have you read that would give you that impression? While you are technically correct, I'd love to know what information you have about Revan that the rest of us don't that allows you to pass judgment about his combat capabilities.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent

With the Force, Revan would probably unleash it like a Pit Bull in Michael Vick's house and Caedus would lose.
Based on...? Once again, what do you know that we don't?

Anyways, Caedus has a far broader knowledge of the Force, and while it is possible that Revan's greater share of Sith knowledge could turn the tide, Jacen's amazing combat showings lower this probability. Caedus is a proven BEAST. Revan hasn't shown anything at all. Caedus has the advantage.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

Revan takes the last two because of his experience in combat.
Caedus doesn't have experience? The whole "The Galaxy has been at war for most of my life" and "I was on the front lines of at least two wars" thing doesn't ring a bell? Try again.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

Sure Jacen/Caedus fought thet YV & Killicks, but has he fought multpile Mandalorians? No.
Ah. I see. So he does have experience, but not against TEH MANDALORZ!!!1111. Mandalorians are warriors. They are not gods, nor are they Yahwe's chosen people. (That honor is reserved for the people who killed his kid.) No matter what Karen Traviss tells you, remember: Mandalorians aren't TEH ROXORZ. They suck. And even though she thinks it'd be "cool" to write a language, she can't.


Mandalorians are nothing.



Even if they were something, don't forget that Jacen died because of the Mandalorians- Jaina trained/fought alongside the Mando's, and I think that Caedus killed a few during Invincible. Still-

Mandalorians are nothing.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent

During the YV War, he was nearly reluctant to kill. Revan wasn't. To be Sith, you absolutely cannot have the hesitation to kill. Why did Jacen/Caedus seem to have a conscious?
During the war he wasn't a Sith yet. So there goes that problem. Also, how on earth does having a conscience translate to reduced power? Personality can not come into play during these battles or else we'd have Mara Jade/Princess Leia battles end with a tea party. Mindset is irrelevant, as is this insistence you have on proving that Caedus wasn't ruthless enough. (Burning Kashyyk wasn't good enough for you?)
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

To further make a point, Caedus never waged a total war. Revan and Malak did. Revan knows the definition of war and how to fight it. Back to strength in the Force. It would be a good duel in the Force between Revan and Caedus, but Caedus would lose.
Caedus burned the world where some of his childhood friends grew up. If that isn't ruthless then I don't know what is.

I like how you made the assertion that Revan > Caedus but then talked about irrelevancies like personality. That's the way to win a debate: Make baseless assertions and then change the subject. Way to be!

Oh wait... That's not the way to win a debate.

Hmmm, This could be seen as a racist statement or at the least inflammmatory/borderline ignorant. I'd take it back if I were you.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I forgot to mention ruthless - being ruthless is indiscrimently killing civilians during wartime. Revan and Malak also understood this type of warfare. Revan and Malak waged total war and didn't care who got killed. Typical warfare has you destroy your target and try to minimize civilian causalties. Revan didn't care - he wanted to destroy the enemy's ability to fight and demoralize it's people. Malak learned that from his teacher. The Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War made the 2nd Galactic Civil War look like a border skirmish.

Nobody Jedi? I can see your argument. You make a valid point, but each Jedi killed or turned is a serious blow to the Order. Revan and Malak waged a war of attrition and the Jedi lost. The more soldiers you lose, the less ability to wage war is greatly diminished.


The ability to wage war is not a feat of personal power so you didn't have to waste time typing this.


Bastilla had no clue what was going to become of Revan, in kotor she says something along the lines of "all lives are important even that of a sith lord," "the jedi do not believe in killing their prisoners," and "what greater weapon is there then to turn and enemy to your cause, to use their own knowledge against them." Bastilla saved Revan's life because it was a life, and for the knowledge he had about the sith, she never said anything about seeing potential for redemption. Which has nothing to do with personal power and his redemption is another topic all together.




You can expect nothing less.


I'm not sure what part of my argument this is a rebuttal to since you didn't quote it but I don't see how this particular line matters since this has nothing to do with personal power.



Malak may have been more of an official sith but that doesn't mean shit unless you are trying to suggest that Malak could take him in fight. Being more of sith doesn't make him more powerful. Caedus is superior to Malak in every single way.


So you want Caedus to go to the surface of a hostile planet, full of jedi and wookiees with just his GAG troops? That would have been a terrible move because

A) the wookiees know the terrain better
B) The entire planet would be against him
C) He didn't arrive to Kashyyk with enough troops to even try to occupy the planet
D) It is full of the most powerful jedi in the order while he (and maybe Tahiri) would be the only force user opposing them.
E) If he went down the surface then he couldn't use BM to help the Ga fleet vs the wookiee fleet, and the confederation fleet.

The mandalorian war was a different type of war all together in the entire 2nd GCW there was never any type of planetorial ground invasions/battles that we saw in the mando wars, so how exactly do you want him to be fighting planetside on the frontlines when there was never an opportunity to.

I would also like proof that Revan actually fought on the frontlines in any battle besides Malachor where the only known Mandalorian he killed was Mandalore. Put up or shut up.


His BA was great as shown in the ambush on Conruscant but when the enemy are the likes of Jaina Solo, Luke Skywalker and company that tends to happen.


Then after that Caedus fought Luke on even grounds before he got the advantage and injured Luke.


There were circumstances around that such as the fact that Shimrra was a vong, the terrain/anti grav.(I think) but I can't go into detail on this since I'm not on my own computer which has the TUF on it so I can answer this.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
We all agree that Caedus was powerful - nearly on the same level with Luke, but not quite. When Luke was injured by Shimmra he was still able to summon the Force and decapitate him. If it was Revan fighting Shimmra, I don't Revan would have wasted his time in a long drawn out lightsaber battle. Shimrra would have been hit a massive blast of FL and I'm pretty sure there would have been a huge exit wound.



Red already addressed this.



Which you have yet to proven. So far all I read is that "Revan has all the sith knowledge" (which he doesn't) and the force storm feat vs rakatan scouting parties of unknown number who had no defense.

Caedus has a much broader knowledge of the force. His force feats are more impressive then the one's Revan is known for.


Did you miss the part in Invincible where Caedus completely tools the mandalorians that attack him?



Back then Jacen had a completely different view of how the force should be used. So, this how no bearings on Revan vs Caedus not Jacen.


That was when Jacen was teenager his mind state changed by the end of the war to the DN trilogy. By the end of the 2nd galactic civil war he would have killed any one that could between him and Allana. And for the hundredth time it doesn' matter if Revan was more sithly than Caedus because he would have no moral problem with killing Revan. Being more sithly(following their teachings of how a sith should act) has no bearings on this fight.



I already addressed this,there Mandalorian War and the second galactic civil war were nothing a like. Nor were the politcs that led to them. There wasn't a total war mentality in the latter in fact the only times there was, was when Caedus had Kashyyk's forest/cities set ablaze.


Sorry but you have not come close to proving so far your arguments have been Revan's forcestorm PNWSORS!,he was more sithly, he knew how rage war and he had more sith knowledge. That is hardly a winning argument.

Well said Elite Hunter and well argued. But Kashyyk wasn't fully destroyed like Dantooine, Ithor, Dxun, Coruscant and other systems that Revan attacked. It is one thing to have BA, but to strategically plan your targets where it will hurt the enemy the most is crucial. I'm not sure if Caedus would have been willing to use the Mass Shadow Generator at Malachor V.

Major battles like Dxun need to be fought by ground troops and Revan and Malak were the supreme commanders at the time. It is safe to assume that they led at the front lines. They weren't afraid to get their hands dirty you know. A good commander is willing to share the same risks as his/hers troops like the Exile.

Red Nemesis - to be Sith you have to be willing to kill the ones you love most. Bastilla defeated Revan by accident because of Malak's attack. Why do I believe Revan is stronger than Caedus? You made a mention that Caedus was a beast. So was Maul and that would make him the more dangerous fighter. A smart Sith wouldn't lengthen a lightsaber duel - he would use the dark side. Revan was more attuned to the dark side because he craved it's power - Caedus didn't thus he didn't fully master it.

We can assume that Revan's study of the dark side taught him to resist FL. During Jacen/Caedus train he wasn't. He only received partial Sith training. Lumiya was like Maul and Mara (as an Emperor's Hand) - a minion to be used. Vader wasn't a true Dark Lord of the Sith because be wasn't fully human anymore (more cybernetic than man), never completed the training and he didn't attempt to kill Sidious. So what if he can use force choke - didn't Luke use the same power in Jaba's palace? But when it comes to Force, Revan is by far stronger because his knowledge of the dark side and the Sith because he always craved power.

If Revan fought the YV, yes he would be confused by not sensing them in the Force. But then, like a true Sith, he'd counterattack with a total war against them. They wouldn't understand why a Jedi was willing to kill so many civilians and not give a shit.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Hmmm, This could be seen as a racist statement or at the least inflammmatory/borderline ignorant. I'd take it back if I were you.

If it offended you then I'm sorry. I take it back.

Care to address any of my arguments?

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Well said Elite Hunter and well argued. But Kashyyk wasn't fully destroyed like Dantooine, Ithor, Dxun, Coruscant and other systems that Revan attacked. It is one thing to have BA, but to strategically plan your targets where it will hurt the enemy the most is crucial. I'm not sure if Caedus would have been willing to use the Mass Shadow Generator at Malachor V.
Caedus's willingness to use a powerful weapon has no effect on a one on one battle. There are no bystanders here, so apathy to collateral damage is irrelevant.

Ground battles are only fought when they have to be- a commander doesn't look for more logistical challenges. Landing troops is a complication that can be avoided if one army attains space control. Caedus had neither the need nor the desire to land on Kashyyk. So he didn't.

Revan didn't attack Dantooine. Just sayin.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent

Major battles like Dxun need to be fought by ground troops and Revan and Malak were the supreme commanders at the time. It is safe to assume that they led at the front lines. They weren't afraid to get their hands dirty you know. A good commander is willing to share the same risks as his/hers troops like the Exile.
You said this already, although you have not supported it. Repetition does not make something true. If it did I would be very, very rich. Also, proof that Revan was on the front lines? And another thing: Caedus was on the front lines: that was part of the problem with him joining the GA police force. There was a Jedi conducting raids.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

Red Nemesis - to be Sith you have to be willing to kill the ones you love most. Bastilla defeated Revan by accident because of Malak's attack. Why do I believe Revan is stronger than Caedus? You made a mention that Caedus was a beast. So was Maul and that would make him the more dangerous fighter. A smart Sith wouldn't lengthen a lightsaber duel - he would use the dark side. Revan was more attuned to the dark side because he craved it's power - Caedus didn't thus he didn't fully master it.
In reverse order of your assertions:
1. Only one Sith ever mastered the Dark Side: Palpatine. Revan didn't, and neither did Caedus. I'm not sure what your point is here.
2. You want to say that Revan would bring the duel into a Force contest? Fine. Caedus would win. He is stronger in the force (Skywalker blood FTW) and has superior training (he was described as a 'total master of the force.'). Caedus's Force knowledge is broader than Revan's and his greater versatility, strength and skill would carry the day.
3. I used the word 'beast' as an intensifier to the assertion that 'Caedus is.' I meant to emphasize his power without having to go into detail. I suppose that it was lazy, but in no way should he be likened to Maul: Caedus is much more intelligent and powerful then Maul ever hoped to be. Caedus is a tactician/Strategist, while Maul was a tool. There is a big difference.
4. Bastilla did not defeat Revan- the two never fought. Revan simply fell down (/was knocked out.)
5. How does a resolve to kill the people close to you translate into power that can be used in a vs. fight?
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

We can assume that Revan's study of the dark side taught him to resist FL. During Jacen/Caedus train he wasn't. He only received partial Sith training. Lumiya was like Maul and Mara (as an Emperor's Hand) - a minion to be used. Vader wasn't a true Dark Lord of the Sith because be wasn't fully human anymore (more cybernetic than man), never completed the training and he didn't attempt to kill Sidious. So what if he can use force choke - didn't Luke use the same power in Jaba's palace? But when it comes to Force, Revan is by far stronger because his knowledge of the dark side and the Sith because he always craved power.
Proof that Revan was taught to resist FL? There is no such proof. You know what happens when you assume: you make an ass out of you and me.

It seems to me that your argument is that Revan could defeat Caedus because Caedus wasn't as fluent in the Sith teachings. While it is true that Caedus's knowledge of Sith techniques is limited, he has a broader knowledge overall than most Force users in history. Regardless of his knowledge of Sith techniques, he is still far more powerful than Revan is.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

If Revan fought the YV, yes he would be confused by not sensing them in the Force. But then, like a true Sith, he'd counterattack with a total war against them. They wouldn't understand why a Jedi was willing to kill so many civilians and not give a shit.
One can not wage war against an individual. We are clearly talking at cross purposes: I am trying to discern Revan's individual power level, while you appear to be discussing his ability as a commander. The two are very different, and only the former applies in a battle.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Well said Elite Hunter and well argued. But Kashyyk wasn't fully destroyed
Because of the Confederation invention,jedi's stealth X counter attack and then Hapan fleet arriving and then betraying Caedus.


Wait, when did Revan attack Dantooine or Ithor? Is there any proof that Revan was on Dxun during the mando. war? I know for a fact that Revan,Malak or the mandos. never attacked Coruscant.


I'm growing tired of answering rebuttals about military strategies, which have nothing to do with who is more powerful in the force. Btw considering Caedus ordered the bombardment of Kashyyk knowing full well who was on it not to mention the sentimental value the planet has among the Solo family then I don't see why he wouldn't use the MSG at malachor if he was there. But like I said this has nothing to do with one on one combat so let's drop it after this post.



Revan is known for his military strategies, the only known battle that he was somewhat on the frontlines is Malachor where we only know that he killed Mandalore the Ultimate. Provide evidence that Revan was personally on the front lines or drop it.



Maul has never shown to a master of the force compared to the upper tier characters. But physically, Maul is a beast in his own right.




This is wrong, Dooku was the one who started the lightsaber duel with Yoda, Sidious fought Mace in a lightssaber duel until he was disarmed despite being stronger in the force, Exar Kun faced his former master in a ligthsaber duel despite the fact that he could tool him in the force. I could go on but I don't have enough time to. How the sith attack their opponents is based on the situation or personal preference. And what is this none sense that Caedus didn't crave power? He was the one who came up with the idea of arresting then chief of state Cal Omas and while meeting with the Moffs during Invicble Caedus is thinking about himself being emperor of an empire and sitting on a throne(which when he thought he was fighting Luke, he makes a reference to this in his mind.) Provide real physical evidence that Revan is stronger in the force or drop it.


No Caedus, was just trained to resist pain on unholy levels that force sensitive wise only Sion could match/beat. Plus he spent 5 years studying the force teaching of organizations that Revan has never seen.



If this is your only point in your argument then your argument fails. Revan may have more sith knowledge but Caedus has knowledge from a third source(other then jedi or sith) and that is all the force organizations that he trained/learned with during 5 year journey. Not to mention that has shown alot more in the force then Revan.

I have to go out know, probably for the rest of the day so when I get a chance to come back on I expect to see actual force feats/display of his force knowledge in action that we use to judge Revan's power not just his knowledge in the force because just by going by force knowledge only, Revan loses. And please don't list anymore strategy crap.

I had a huge rebutall written and my computer froze.

Red, you make a mention a mention of the Mando's. I have a friend who is an Army Ranger and he said the attack on Caedus was suicide. A couple of well placed proton cores and the entire facility would have been destroyed. No need for Jaina and both the Moffs and Caedus would have been killed. 2GCW over.

Caedus didn't have a formal Sith teacher. His master was Luke. Sure Vergere and Lumiya taught him the ways of the dark side, but he never mastered the ways of the Sith. Yes he was a master of the Force, but it was the Jedi arts - not the way of the Sith. He wasn't willing to kill his daughter - he should have been. He should have destroyed Hapes. He couldn't seem to find a decent Sith apprentice. Tahiri was weak because she was obsessed with Anakin. Ben, strong in the Force was basically a carbon copy of his father.

Caedus killed Mara and that was an accomplishment. Before a Jedi Master, she was a trained assasin, veteran of the first GCW and YV War. She nearly killed him with lightsaber and the use of the Force. He cheated (which is a way of the Sith) to eliminate her. Everyone makes a point that he held his own against Luke, but what if Luke found out that he had killed his wife? Caedus would have been dead in less than 10 seconds.

Back to Revan, I do believe that Revan was responsible for creating the Sith'ari - Sidious. It was Revan was amassed and studied the collected knowledge of the Sith. He was far stronger in the dark side, far stronger in the Force. The only way for Caedus to be able to defeat Revan is if he received Sith training from Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I had a huge rebutall written and my computer froze.Pity.

You don't need military personnel to point out PIS.

Neither did Revan.

He mastered elements of everything; you don't seem to understand that there are sects beyond the Jedi and Sith studying the Force.

Relevancy is cool.

... And? You're arguing for Caedus now?

Prove it.

He didn't "amass" anything. He went to Malachor and studied. Sidious is the one who spent over two decades scouring the galaxy in search of more knowledge.

Prove it.

If your next post is as ridiculous as this one, I'm going to report you for stupidity.

Stupidy - hmm. Look at the broader spectrum. Didn't Revan go to Korriban and the Unknown Regions? Who do you think gave Sidious the knowledge of the Sith. I mean passed to him by Pelagius - it came from Bane who got it from Revan.

Read Inferno again when Jacen/Caedus was being attended to by a medic. He was worried about his next fight with Luke because Luke would not hold anything back. Luke had mastered the Force and lightsaber combat and developed another lightsaber form.

It is true that Revan did not have a formal teacher, but he did learn immense Sith power from Traya. Malachor V and Korriban taught Revan more about the dark side than Vergere or Lumiya. Vergere and Lumiya had no where near the power of Traya. Why did I make a mention about Mara - Caedus felt that was the sacrifice, but Allana betraying him was in fact the sacrifice. Caedus didn't understand betrayal. He didn't understand that in order for the Sith to remain strong, they must root out the weak. Revan knew this and this is why he chose Malak as his apprentice. Revan and Malak despised weakness and believed that those who asked for mercy didn't deserve it.

I cannot figure out why Caedus didn't choose a better canidate to succeed him. Can someone help me out there?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


First you "agree" that Revan's Force knowledge exceeds Vader's. Proof? Vader studied under the GREATEST SITH EVA1111(ONE!) He had access to more knowledge than any other Sith in history, with the exception of Palpatine. I can not prove that he actually studied all of it, but would someone searching for power really ignore the chance for more?
And the new kid on the forum starts to embarrass himself trying to talk down to me. I don't HAVE to prove Revan's force knowledge exceeds Vader's. Revan had all of Korriban and the underground cities of Malachor V, including holocrons. Vader had what Sidious CHOSE to teach him. He was not a historian nor is there ANY indication that he learned even an iota of what Revan knew. You lose.


1. You were talking about Revan already. To say that he is 'also' superior to Vader is not correct. This was clearly a slip up, but when you are trying to one-up everyone who has already posted I suggest you get it right.
2. On what grounds are you surmising that Revan is also more powerful than Vader? Earlier you "agreed" to think so, but consensus is not proof. Before Copernicus (and even after) *everyone* thought that the Sun revolved around the earth. This was false. What the majority thinks (or what words you place into the majority's mouth) is irrelevant. Prove that Revan > Vader or kindly be quiet.
Continually embarrassing yourself Nebaris-style isn't going to make your argument any more logical. The proof is already against Vader so I don't have to prove anything. Seriously, you're an idiot.



Revan's knowledge of the force= Korriban+Malachor V+ Lehon. Vader's knowledge of the force= what little Sidious offered to teach him. "Suck it" isn't a valid response when you're getting verbally raped.


ROFL@this. I mean you were already looking like a total buffoon when you started your rant, but now it's just getting sad. You shouldn't post on this forum anymore unless you want to get wtfpwned.

You are not looking at the broader spectrum - CAEDUS did not have complete Sith training! That's like saying someone who didn't complete Marine Basic is a Marine. Knowledge is power and that is what Revan desired and that is what he got. Caedus never desired complete knowledge - he wanted to stop a war. Think! You're attening college. Caedus became a "Sith" because he felt total control brought total peace. But there is no truth in that.

You are saying that Caedus is more powerful then Revan, but reverse roles and have Caedus attempt to destroy the SF. I don't think he would have the capacity to destroy it. Would he fight Tenel Ka for arguments sake we'll say she turned to the dark side? Like the little ***** he was, he wouldn't. At least Revan fought Bastilla. Revan left Bastilla for the Unknown Regions to fight the true threat. Caedus didn't want anything to happen to his precious daughter and lover.

May I remind you that Caedus was killed by his sister who was by far inferior to him in the Force! Caedus allowed himself to be killed to "warn Tenel Ka about the danger." A true Sith wouldn't care - he cares about total victory. Unlimited power too. He was no Sith - just a wanabe.

Darth Revan is a potential candidate, since his destroying of the Star Forge greatly reduced the Sith's numbers, at the same time, bringing about the eventual purge of the Jedi Order. His holocron also provided Bane with the foundation to create the Rule of Two, which would lead to the Jedi Order's downfall. He also was in a hair's reach from completely conquering the galaxy. Later, Kreia alluded to the idea that Revan was above the influence of the Dark Side. Revan indeed was above the darkside's influence and is one of the greatest Jedi in history, but still the most likely candidate for the Sith'ari as it is not necessary to be a Sith in order to be a Sith'ari. He is also the only candidate other than Darth Caedus to be able to use lightside and darkside powers at the same time, and not being able to do so is another restriction.

see my post in EU about the Sith'ari - I think it'll prove a case

Truculent, you're on the fastlane to a universal ignored status on KMC. Here's some simple truths:

- Darth Caedus did not have 'complete Sith training.' So ****ing what? This guy spent a five year galactic sojourn learning disciplines from pretty much every existing Force cult. His knowledge of the Force is most decidedly broader than Revan's, even if his knowledge of the Sith isn't.

- Darth Vader vs. Darth Revan is pointless. While Sidious is miles above Revan in Sith knowledge, Vader isn't. Vader wasn't a scholar; he was content with limited Force techniques. And why not? They worked. Telekinesis seemed to be his preferred and primary weapon of choice, and he was obscenely powerful with it. Knowledge is in Revan's favor, but power is still up for debate.

- Caedus being a wannabe Sith has nothing to do with his abilities in combat. Darth Bandon was a 'true Sith', but Caedus would still do unholy things to him in combat, regardless of status.

Gideon - I just got on a rant. Sometimes I do that without thinking. Have a big enough mouth to put my foot in it.

Sorry everyone - just the stupid Irish blood in me. Forgive me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CLwxObfaNE

Here I thought this was just honest fun and you had to go and be (unsuccessfully) antagonistic. Before you start lecturing me about seniority why don't you master the quote function. Sound good big guy?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And the new kid on the forum starts to embarrass himself trying to talk down to me. I don't HAVE to prove Revan's force knowledge exceeds Vader's. Revan had all of Korriban and the underground cities of Malachor V, including holocrons. Vader had what Sidious CHOSE to teach him. He was not a historian nor is there ANY indication that he learned even an iota of what Revan knew. You lose.
As much as it pains me to admit it, you are probably right here. I think that I will concede the Vader/Revan knowledge argument, because Vader's showings do not indicate that he has a superior knowledge of the Force. Point conceded.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy


Continually embarrassing yourself Nebaris-style isn't going to make your argument any more logical. The proof is already against Vader so I don't have to prove anything. Seriously, you're an idiot.
Lets not say anything that can't be taken back! The point has already been conceded though, so we can move on.

Just one more thing: to quote something you have to put '' before you put the endquote tag. If you don't, you might look like a hypocritical idiot.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Revan's knowledge of the force= Korriban+Malachor V+ Lehon. Vader's knowledge of the force= what little Sidious offered to teach him. "Suck it" isn't a valid response when you're getting verbally raped.
It is interesting that you would chose to belabor the Vader/Revan point when the portion of my post that this was in response to was clearly talking about Caedus. It shows that you would rather avoid the topic whenever you can. I might not have been as long as you, but it seems to me like the better debater is the one that can make a coherent point in support of their position. I might be way off base here, but aren't you trying to prove that Revan could take Caedus in a fight? I conceded the off topic part specifically to make it easier for you. I'll make it clear: On what grounds (if any) do you base your assertion that Revan would win in a fight with Darth Caedus.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

ROFL@this. I mean you were already looking like a total buffoon when you started your rant, but now it's just getting sad. You shouldn't post on this forum anymore unless you want to get wtfpwned.

How specifically does this prove your point? Attacking me doesn't make my arguments get any less forceful. Prove me wrong or tell me that you just want a flame war so that we can get this over with. The truth is that without the distraction of a flame war you will have to admit that you took an untenable position: Revan will never be able to take Jacen/Caedus in a fight.

I will reiterate:
1. Caedus has shown a staggering variety of Force powers, many of which never before seen in the saga.
2. He has been confirmed as more powerful than his grandfather (Darth Vader) by out of universe narration.
3. His showings rival and in some places surpass LotF Luke Skywalker- who is among (possibly the) greatest Force users in the Mythos.

Based on these facts (and some perspective from the rest of the saga) we can place Darth Caedus above most of the known Force users. Calling me a 'buffoon' or 'idiot' (which is a reportable offense now) will not change the fact that Jacen's showings as a Sith surpass all conjecture and extrapolation about Revan's.

When you respond, go ahead and take your time (remember to use both quote tags) and address the issues, not my seniority online. Who knows? You might even make a point!

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Revan is a virtual unknown, however, we can agree on one thing. Revan's knowledge of the force vastly exceeds that of Vader's.Probably.

Prove it.

This makes no sense.

Obi-Wan Kenobi is superior to Revan. Prove me wrong.

No, we don't. For starters - according to Gideon, who I will note personally disputes the validity of the claim - Lumiya states that Caedus had a wider knowledge base than Palpatine. As it is, he spent five years travelling the galaxy, learning obscure techniques from obscure sects, while Revan was limited to what was gathered on the old strongholds of Malachor V and Ziost, and the ruins of Korriban. We don't even know how much of that he actually managed to get through, or how skilled he actually ended up being, while Caedus - between his illusions, the flow-walk, the Vong-sense, and his physical resistance to pain - has made his mastery of elements both physical and supernatural undisputable.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I had a huge rebutall written and my computer froze.

At least you can go on your own computer right now


The mandos were originally going to eliminate the moff council at Nickel One which means that they need to be well armed because of all the imperial body guards and storm troopers present on the ship. The fact that there attack on Caedus(I don't even think they knew he was there originally till Jaina warned them and he walked out into the room with the moffs) became a "suicidal" one speaks for Caedus's skills not the lack of the mandalorians.



We could be here all days debating the strategy use but it does not diminish Caedus's feat so this point fails.


As Faunus pointed out,neither did Revan.


And Revan never studied the ways of force cults such as Aing-Tii, Theran Listeners, Fallanassi, Dathomiri witches, Jensaarai among others. It is also possible that Caedus knew sith techniques that revan didn't such as the sith variant of battle medidation which there is no evidence that Revan knew. But for the millionth time sith knowledge doesn't equal win otherwise the sith should never lose a duel.


Which once again does not matter since Revan isn't Allana. So you can stop bringing this up.




What you fail to mention is that Mara had the advantage because of the terrain which she wisely chose since she knew her force abilities were not match for his on neutral ground.


You mean by coming giving in/using the dark side. Are you trying to suggest that Luke wasn't as nearly as mad in Inferno when he saw his only surviving nephew that he himself trained torturing his only immediate only son with the possibly that Ben turns to the darkside or dies.

I'd love to see you prove it.


Bane was the sithari.


Once again there is no proof that Revan mastered all of the sith knowledge.


Prove it, Caedus has jedi knowledge,sith knowledge and the knowledge of force cults that Revan never studied not to mention he is off skywalker blood and sadly, Revan is not.


Or he could kill him in a lightsaber duel,cut off Revan from the force thus making him as good as dead or he could paralyze Revan as Caeuds has done to soldiers in DN and LOTF, to name a few. The fact of the matter is that Caedus has shown more abilities the Revan.


there is no proof that he learned anything in the unknown regions.


Sidious's sith knowledge came from a lot of different sources even from ancient sith such as Naga Sadow not just what Bane passed down that he learned from Revan. Sidious's knowledge>Revan's.


Bane also had access to Freedon Nadd's holocron and Belia Darzu's holocron as well.


How is this a knock on Caedus? Luke Skywalker could take anyone in one on one combat. Luke spared Caedus's life because he didn't want Ben to go to the darkside then later on in the series he says that he can't be the one to kill Caedus because of a dark taint in him that could make himself fall.


Traya was not a sith when Revan learned the ways of the sith, Kreia didn't teach him sith knowledge, plus he fell and discovered Malachor way before she did.


Traya (as Kreia) was his jedi master she was never his sith master. You have to understand there is more to the force then just jedi and sith knowledge!



This has nothing to do with personal power,Caedus would never ask for mercy nor would he show Revan any. Stop bring up useless points.


Ben deserted him for a number of reasons, none of the jedi trusted himbut Tahiri, thanks to her memories of Anakin.) then they wanted to put a stop to his reign There was a war going on so he couldn't exactly travel the galaxy to find someone to be his apprentice.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
You are not looking at the broader spectrum
No,you aren't looking at the broader spectrum, which is there is more to the force then just sith knowledge. Caedus had a broader knowledge of the force then Revan, that is a fact.


And Caedus's knowledge of the force surpasses Revan....

Good for Revan, and he countless characters that did the same.


What part of traveling the galaxy for 5 years and studying the force do you not comprehend. And Revan became a sith to protect the galaxy from a war to come-similar reasons,no.


Revan became a sith and conquer the galaxy to protect it from the sith empire in the unknown regions. Once again being a sith doesn't make you all powerful otherwise the sith would have ruled the galaxy more times then have.


That is your opinion, but Caedus has just as much if not more combat experience as Revan.

Did you miss the part where he would let no one get between him and Allana even if that person was Tenel Ka.


If Revan didn't want to protect Bastilla then she would have went with him...

Great argument, did you miss the fact that in the first duel one of his arms was useless since she shot it with a rifle while he was fighting the mandalaroian commandos. Then he let her cut off the useless arm,nearly killed. Half of the duel he thought he was facing Luke Skywalker thanks to an illusion and he put a blood trail on her so she could lead him to the jedi base.

Then before the second duel even started she hid herself in the force so she couldn't be detected then stabbed him from behind into his stomach and during the duel she noted multiple times that she could not believe that Caedus was attacking her as fiercely as he was with multiple injuries including the lack of an arm yet he still almost killed the sword of the jedi who just got done receiving special "jedi hunting/combat" training from Boba Fett.


Which means at the very least he could have taken Jaina down with him.


Lol, this wannabe sith has demonstrated more abilities then "true sith." How about you come up with a better argument that is not based on who is more sithly.

Originally posted by Faunus
Probably.

Prove it.

This makes no sense.

Obi-Wan Kenobi is superior to Revan. Prove me wrong.
For the most part, in the SW mythos, more knowledge has equated to more power. We know Revan has vastly more knowledge than Vader, and there's absolutely NOTHING that puts Vader above Revan. So while you keep spitting out "prove it", I'll do the same.


Please name me anything Caedus learned that is valuable in a fight. What we DO know is Revan learned techniques that made Bane shit his pants. And Lumiya's word isn't absolute, because it's been disproved by various sources. It is possible that Caedus has learned techniques Palpatine hasn't heard of but it's equally as possible, even likely, that Revan and Palpatine know techniques Caedus hasn't ever heard of.

Please name me anything Revan taught Bane that is valuable in a fight.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Please name me anything Revan taught Bane that is valuable in a fight.

We don't know what Revan taught Bane. We know Bane was afraid to learn some of the techniques in the holocron and the one thing he DID take was the thought bomb. Not to mention you haven't made a single valid point in your half assed argument, so leave it to the big boys now.

The problem is that Lumiya was but an Emperor's Hand; like Mara Jade, she was only taught and shown precisely what Palpatine wanted her to see. I refer you to Mara Jade's testimony in the Hand of Thrawn duology where she claims that Grand Admiral Thrawn possessed superior political acumen than Palpatine himself.

The Emperor had a notorious history of limiting the knowledge of his subordinates; he is on record to have limited Tyranus's knowledge of the Sith; he cut dark side adept and Inquisitor Jerec off from the Dark Side Compendium; Vader's own musings in the Rise of Darth Vader conclude that Palpatine doled out "precious bits of Sith knowledge" that kept Vader hungry for more but not enough "to make him supremely powerful."

Logic dictates that Lumiya was relatively ignorant of the true scope of Palpatine's power (even though she'd later go on to tell Jacen that the Emperor's power was "limitless.". Furthermore, Jacen's five-year-sojourn across the backwaters and fringes of the galaxy would certainly yield a startling amount of knowledge, especially when compared to Luke Skywalker who had a laughable knowledge base to begin with and was active in the New Republic military, which largely prevented him from going on such treks.

But to compare him to Palpatine is also a joke; the Emperor spent twenty years as the galaxy's sole dictator of the galaxy's sole superpower. He "gathered the greatest works" of Force knowledge from "a million worlds" and heaps of Sith artifacts and arcana. He was a superb alchemist, having Naga Sadow's knowledge as well as having mastered the Krath (according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook), not to mention the reservoir that is the Telos and Tedryn Holocron.

As far as that goes, let me say explicitly that Palpatine has demonstrated the greatest command and knowledge of the Force out of anyone in the mythos ever. No one compares.

Though I will say that it's also a bit of a chuckle to think that Darth Revan's relatively minor stint with the dark side is enough to yield truly uber Force knowledge. His fanboyism knows no bounds.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
We don't know what Revan taught Bane. We know Bane was afraid to learn some of the techniques in the holocron and the one thing he DID take was the thought bomb. Not to mention you haven't made a single valid point in your half assed argument, so leave it to the big boys now.

That was the point of my response. Using "OMG BANE WUZ SKARED OF REVANS LURNIN" isn't enough to substantiate your claim that Revan's knowledge is more applicable to combat than is Caedus's. You said it yourself: We don't know what Revan taught Bane. Because of the uncertainty inherent in Revan's abilities we have to work only with what we know- there is too much room for error in speculation. You can't just guess. You have no proof that Revan would have a snowball's chance in hell.

Caedus wins this confrontation.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That was the point of my response. Using "OMG BANE WUZ SKARED OF REVANS LURNIN" isn't enough to substantiate your claim that Revan's knowledge is more applicable to combat than is Caedus's. You said it yourself: We don't know what Revan taught Bane. Because of the uncertainty inherent in Revan's abilities we have to work only with what we know- there is too much room for error in speculation. You can't just guess. You have no proof that Revan would have a snowball's chance in hell.

Caedus wins this confrontation.


ROFL... SO because of your inability to surmise Revan's fighting capabilities, Caedus wins by default? No wonder you get flamed.

Compared to Vader and Caedus? It most certainly is logical.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ROFL... SO because of your inability to surmise Revan's fighting capabilities, Caedus wins by default? No wonder you get flamed.

That's your best argument? Because I base my decisions on proven fact I'm wrong? Care to explain why you can make up facts/feats in favor of your character? Your only point so far has been that Bane was afraid of Revan's teachings. This (sadly) does not show that Revan was particularly adept in combat, as many (if not all) of the abilities could have been rituals, or even non-combat related.

Your inability to argue a point does not make my position untenable. So, yet again you have failed to actually contribute anything of value to the discussion.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That's your best argument? Because I base my decisions on proven fact I'm wrong? Care to explain why you can make up facts/feats in favor of your character? Your only point so far has been that Bane was afraid of Revan's teachings. This (sadly) does not show that Revan was particularly adept in combat, as many (if not all) of the abilities could have been rituals, or even non-combat related.
No, my argument about Vader and Caedus is based on facts. Your argument is that because in your mind I failed to prove something to someone as dumb as you, then it MUST be the other extreme.



Your inability to argue at ALL is why you constantly get flamed. Again, leave it to the big boys seeing as how you haven't made a single useful post.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, my argument about Vader and Caedus is based on facts. Your argument is that because in your mind I failed to prove something to someone as dumb as you, then it MUST be the other extreme.
There you go again, talking about Vader. I conceded that point. I really don't care about Vader/Caedus because it has been settled by out of universe narration. We're talking about Revan.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Your inability to argue at ALL is why you constantly get flamed. Again, leave it to the big boys seeing as how you haven't made a single useful post.
Did I miss something? I don't think that I've ever actually been flamed. BOOG might count, but he was a troll and I'm trying to forget him. Sidious66 might count, except that he never said anything offensive to me, I just got frustrated at his refusal to look at the facts. Am I missing anyone? I can't think of anyone that I've actually gotten into a flame war with. You're delusional. At least I can stay on topic.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

There you go again, talking about Vader. I conceded that point. I really don't care about Vader/Caedus because it has been settled by out of universe narration. We're talking about Revan.



Did I miss something? I don't think that I've ever actually been flamed. BOOG might count, but he was a troll and I'm trying to forget him. Sidious66 might count, except that he never said anything offensive to me, I just got frustrated at his refusal to look at the facts. Am I missing anyone? I can't think of anyone that I've actually gotten into a flame war with. You're delusional. At least I can stay on topic.

My argument was Revan's relevant force knowledge, and at the very least, dark side knowledge, is superior to Caedus. Caedus might have broader force knowledge but that doesn't say much overall. My points are FACTS, yours are baseless opinions. Try again.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
My argument was Revan's relevant force knowledge, and at the very least, dark side knowledge, is superior to Caedus.
Care to substantiate this? Revan's knowledge hasn't been shown to be combat oriented, and Dark Side knowledge does not guarantee a win.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Caedus might have broader force knowledge but that doesn't say much overall.
Knowledge = Power where the Force is concerned. Jacen's ability to draw on the Force even when in severe pain (one arm left) or stress (about to die and have wife/child in danger) only serve to illustrate his control and therefore power in the force. His showings > Revan.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy

My points are FACTS, yours are baseless opinions. Try again.
You're clearly getting desperate. You are incorrect. Your opinion is not backed by any canon source. You have lost. Stop acting like a child and just admit that you are wrong. Caedus has shown more and more powerful Force abilities than has Revan. On top of this he can contend with the most powerful Jedi (Luke) in the saga. Jacen is simply better.

Translation: I have no argument so I am going to claim that because he has not convinced me, that I am right for whatever reason.

Stop embarrassing yourself. Jacen being able to compete with Luke is NOT a determinant of his alleged superiority to Revan, nor is his ability to withstand pain, which is an attribute of almost every sith. Him being able to flow walk has NOTHING to do with combat situations. You need to either go back to the drawing board or concede this piss poor attempt at an argument.

Love is in the air...

What's love got to do... got to do with it?

Both of you stfu.

wow, real mature...

Isn't he though?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
nor is his ability to withstand pain, which is an attribute of almost every sith.
Do you have examples of multiple sith (save Darth Sion for obvious reasons) being able take as much punishment as Caedus has in battle(or before the battle actually begins in some cases) and continue to put up a fight to the level he had in his duels vs Luke and Jaina. When Vader lost his hand to Luke he didn't even try to get up right away, he was on the ground for more than enough time that Luke could have impaled him.

In Invincible Jaina noted multiple times then she can't believe he is coming after her intensely as he was. This is coming from someone fought against the vong in combat, who value pain more thany any other species in sw. Yet she was still surprised how Jacen has taken wounds that "would have left most humans paralyze with agony" and "thrive" on it.

The facts are Caedus has shown more force abilities that are useful in combat then Revan has.

Revan has force lightning,force choke/tk, and battle precog. What else has he physically shown us that we can debate on?

Caedus can mask his presence in the force(surprise attack), he has paralyzed by using the foce, he cut Ben Skywalker from it without him noticing then reconnected him to it, (showing no effort in doing so) force lightning, he blocked turbolaser fire from a chiss dropship with his hand, his force speed allowed him to move as blur in his duel with Luke and allowed him in Betrayal (I believe) to outrun blaster fire, shatterpoint,,choke,tk (even with a lightsaber in his gut), advance battle awareness, battle precog, he can produce force illusions which as Gideon said back on page one was able to deceive/manipulate Luke.

Based on the abilities that both have physically used, there is nothing in Revan's arsenal that Caedus can't use.

I would also like for someone who Darth Bane"Path of Destruction to quote the passage that mentions Bane being scared to try some of the stuff Revan knew, because wookieepedia's page(as wells as former posters here on kmc use to say) on Revan's holocron mentions that Bane was scared to try some of the rituals Revan knew but as we know rituals take time that one doesn't have in one on one combat.

Just to add, we also aren't learned in the intensity and power of the few known techniques of Revan He's a useless figure for vs.

After Bane's activation of Darth Revan's holocron:


This is copy/pasted from the Russian site's version of PoD.

I think it cements the fact that Bane's fear was only aimed at rituals, not combat techniques. Some portion of the holocron was also philisophical in nature- "weeks" of Bane's study appears to have been on political manipulations and theology/philosophy, rather than on combat. Revan's holocron does not appear to hold any major combat advantage at all. If he had any major innovations in dueling wouldn't his holocron be the place to store them?

EH appears to have dealt with your attempt at a feat war, so I will focus on the more vitriolic portions of your attempt.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Translation: I have no argument so I am going to claim that because he has not convinced me, that I am right for whatever reason.
You really aren't very good at this, are you?

Because you don't have any proof at all you have to resort to attacking me instead of actually making an argument.

You still haven't made any points in favor of Darth Revan. My position is backed by feats and canon narration. Your position is backed by conjecture and biased (fanboy) stubbornness. Guess which one is more persuasive.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Stop embarrassing yourself. Jacen being able to compete with Luke is NOT a determinant of his alleged superiority to Revan, nor is his ability to withstand pain, which is an attribute of almost every Sith. Him being able to flow walk has NOTHING to do with combat situations. You need to either go back to the drawing board or concede this piss poor attempt at an argument.

You keep saying that I'm 'embarrassing' myself or that my argument is weak, yet you haven't provided any evidence in favor of your position. EH has listed many of Jacen's feats during LotF, and I'm sure that there are even more from the Dark Nest trilogy. You didn't even bother to provide us any cases (there should be more than one or two) of a Sith with pain resistance. With the exception of Sion, I can't think of any Sith Lord with pain resistance on par with Jacen's. It's almost like you think you can BS your way out of this train wreck you call an argument. That simply isn't going to cut it. Either provide us with some specifics and proof or go away.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
EH appears to have dealt with your attempt at a feat war, so I will focus on the more vitriolic portions of your attempt.


You really aren't very good at this, are you?

Because you don't have any proof at all you have to resort to attacking me instead of actually making an argument.

You still haven't made any points in favor of Darth Revan. My position is backed by feats and canon narration. Your position is backed by conjecture and biased (fanboy) stubbornness. Guess which one is more persuasive.


You keep saying that I'm 'embarrassing' myself or that my argument is weak, yet you haven't provided any evidence in favor of your position. EH has listed many of Jacen's feats during LotF, and I'm sure that there are even more from the Dark Nest trilogy. You didn't even bother to provide us any cases (there should be more than one or two) of a Sith with pain resistance. With the exception of Sion, I can't think of any Sith Lord with pain resistance on par with Jacen's. It's almost like you think you can BS your way out of this train wreck you call an argument. That simply isn't going to cut it. Either provide us with some specifics and proof or go away.

Seriously, stop embarrassing yourself. Your "you can't convince me so Caedus is better!" argument holds no water.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Do you have examples of multiple sith (save Darth Sion for obvious reasons) being able take as much punishment as Caedus has in battle(or before the battle actually begins in some cases) and continue to put up a fight to the level he had in his duels vs Luke and Jaina. When Vader lost his hand to Luke he didn't even try to get up right away, he was on the ground for more than enough time that Luke could have impaled him.
Vader was also more machine than man. We know that the sith fuel their bodies with anger. We know Bane was dying of poison and he prolonged his life by killing others and feeding off of their death. This is the way of the sith. There is nothing to suggest that Caedus is the only one who can take pain and continue. As a sith he fed off of it, so no.


How does this have to do with anything since Jaina is only a Jedi Knight, and since she has never fought another sith.


WHAT force abilities? The only thing I would give Caedus credit for is shatterpoint. Other than that, Revan has the combination of the underground cities of Malachor V, and the ruins of Korriban which vastly surpass any darkside teachings Caedus would have.


I agree that he is a a relatively unknown character but that alone doesn't give Caedus a victory.


Aleema could produce illusions. So what? He cut a 13 year old off from the force. That's a great ability but how are you going to do that to a powerful force user? A 13 year old doesn't count. I don't recall him EVER outrunning blaster fire. Revan also had precog and awareness, and arguably greater than Caedus, seeing as how he was the closest one to ever destroy the republic by force.


Except virtually ANY darkside teachings, which Caedus is unaware of seeing as how he has NEVER had any real sith training.


Maybe, maybe not.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
WHAT force abilities? The only thing I would give Caedus credit for is shatterpoint. Other than that, Revan has the combination of the underground cities of Malachor V, and the ruins of Korriban which vastly surpass any darkside teachings Caedus would have. One does not give LotF Luke a run for his money and say his techniques are lacking. Revan may have sources, but no techniques we know of. Whatever Revan may have means nothing yet.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I agree that he is a a relatively unknown character but that alone doesn't give Caedus a victory. Conversely, it doesn't give Revan a win either. We know so little about what Revan knows and so little about what degree of power whatever he knows, that giving Revan a win defies all logic. There's just more going for Caedus.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except virtually ANY darkside teachings, which Caedus is unaware of seeing as how he has NEVER had any real sith training. I don't know a lot about Caedus, but if he is lacking Dark Side techniques, then he's still got a lot going in whatever other field he dwells in to make up for it. We know that Revan knows a lot, but if were gonna descend to arguing on speculation then we may as well welcome Nebaris back with open arms, because speculation about Revan is all we have.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Conversely, it doesn't give Revan a win either. We know so little about what Revan knows and so little about what degree of power whatever he knows, that giving Revan a win defies all logic. There's just more going for Caedus.
What we DO know is that Revan's darkside knowledge vastly exceeds Caedus'. I do not have to explain to you the specific techniques to point that fact out. Again, I'll point to the underground cities of Malachor V and the tombs of Korriban.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Seriously, stop embarrassing yourself. Your "you can't convince me so Caedus is better!" argument holds no water.

You are clearly not worth my time. Your entire strategy has been to say that I'm "embarrassing myself," yet you have not yet made an argument in favor of Revan (mostly because there is no argument to be made).

I will try one more time to make you understand:

Darth Revan has shown us only a few abilities that matter in combat. He is confirmed to know:
Force Lightning (which he used on a large area, so his proficiency can't be questioned),
Force Choke (which is actually questionable- to the best of my knowledge he hasn't actually shown this power) and
Precog (granted by force sensitivity)
Telekinesis
It really isn't an impressive list. You can speculate all you want but this is really all that you have to go on.

Compare Revan's tiny number of techniques to Caedus's:
Flow Walk (an indication of Control/power)
Force lightning (which was startlingly powerful even when he only had one arm)
Sever Force (Ben didn't even notice when it happened)
Energy redirection (tanked/reflected a turbolaser bolt)
Ridiculous Force Speed (He kept up- in speed, which is an objective category- with Luke Skywalker)
Force Paralysis
Shatterpoint

This is only the tip of the Iceberg- Caedus can draw on his 5 year trip's results for things like the listening technique and the blood trace. Caedus is far more versatile and varied in his Force showings.

The facts lead us to one and only one conclusion: Darth Caedus's mastery of the Force eclipses that of Darth Revan. No amount of name calling or conjecture can change this. Jacen Solo's feats are simply more impressive than Darth Revan.

EDIT: To prevent a double post:

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What we DO know is that Revan's darkside knowledge vastly exceeds Caedus'. I do not have to explain to you the specific techniques to point that fact out. Again, I'll point to the underground cities of Malachor V and the tombs of Korriban.

What we do not know is how much of that is applicable to personal combat. Their respective share of DS knowledge isn't the be all end all of the debate anyway; it is more important how they use their power. Caedus does not have the same knowledge of Sith teachings, it is true. What is also true is that he can draw upon a tradition that goes beyond the simple Jedi/Sith dichotomy- he has outside knowledge that Revan most likely does not know. The degree to which he mastered the methodologies of alien styles of Force use serve to amplify his power even further. (above Revan)

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Compare Revan's tiny number of techniques to Caedus's:
Flow Walk (an indication of Control/power)
Irrelevant to combat.

Hardly comparable to Revan's miniature force storm that arcs down and hits multiple enemies.

Which was learned by Treia, Sion, and Nihilus on Malachor V, which Revan completely plundered.

A feat which has been replicated by many.

Force speed is a common jedi trait.

Explain how this will help him against an equally powerful force user.

Maybe the ONLY advantage he has on Revan, seeing as it is highly unlikely Revan knows anything like this. Good job proving my point, which is the fact that Caedus has very little going for him against revan except the hilarious "omgz he almost beat Luke13(!#*!(*"


More versatile in esoteric force teachings. Exactly how is his blood trace going to help him in battle? Revan is more versatile in darkside teachings. Point?


Which has little to do with personal combat. While he is a beast, there is little, if any evidence that puts him above Revan in force mastery.



I love how you run around in circles. You use the fact that Caedus' superiority in esoteric teachings give him a victory, but when I claim the opposite with Revan and the darkside teachings, which are SUPERIOR to Caedus, you play the unknown card. Now again, aside from shatterpoint, there is NOTHING that helps Caedus in personal combat against a very powerful sith lord with ancient sith/true sith teachings.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What we DO know is that Revan's darkside knowledge vastly exceeds Caedus'. I do not have to explain to you the specific techniques to point that fact out. Again, I'll point to the underground cities of Malachor V and the tombs of Korriban. Red beat me to it, and he's right. Revan's Sith teachings and knowledge may eclipse Caedus in terms of quantity and maybe even quality, but that doesn't translate to Revan beating Caedus in a fight. You can have all the knowledge of the Sith but if your opponent exceeds your raw power than he exceeds your power, end of story. But until we actually do know what Revan knows and how it applies to a battle, Caedus wins by default. As does every other powerful opponent we put up against Revan.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Red beat me to it, and he's right. Revan's Sith teachings and knowledge may eclipse Caedus in terms of quantity and maybe even quality, but that doesn't translate to Revan beating Caedus in a fight. You can have all the knowledge of the Sith but if your opponent exceeds your raw power than he exceeds your power, end of story. But until we actually do know what Revan knows and how it applies to a battle, Caedus wins by default. As does every other powerful opponent we put up against Revan.

If, and I mean IF any opponent beats another opponent by default because someone is unknown, then STOP using unknown characters in a versus fight. Absence of proof ISNT proof of absence so being and unknown doesn't translate into victory for the other guy.

Revan's shit. And also receives no accolades for power in the Encyclopedia. Thank you LFL.

I agree!

ermm

Originally posted by Gideon
Revan's shit. And also receives no accolades for power in the Encyclopedia. Thank you LFL. Bada-bing bada-boom.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Vader was also more machine than man. We know that the sith fuel their bodies with anger. We know Bane was dying of poison and he prolonged his life by killing others and feeding off of their death. This is the way of the sith. There is nothing to suggest that Caedus is the only one who can take pain and continue. As a sith he fed off of it, so no.

That wasn't the type of ex. I was looking for because Bane killed boys and their father they could never pose a threat to him under normal circumstances, hell I wonder what theire chances would have been if they tried to kill Bane. But this example is not exactly what I was looking for since Bane wasn't fighting a powerful opponent. Do you have any other examples that of sith being able to take wounds that would leave others "paralyze" or how about the fact that Caedus could take multiple wounds that others may not be able to take and still put up a fight such as he does in Inferno.


You don't think that during the invasion there weren't times that left the jedi wondering how much damage a vong could take in battle and still continue to fight. Jaina has experience fighting warriors who worship pain and love it. Yet she couldn't understand how here brother was still able to fight her as intently as he did.


I have no problem admitting that Revan has superior ds knowledge but Caedus spent 5 years studying the force abroad and look at all the abilities he came back with that are helpful in combat. We don't know what abilities would help him, as Red already posted Bane was scared of rituals not combat abilities so that hurts the argument of Revan learned devastatingly powerful combat abilities. Seeing as how we don't know shit about what those abilities are hurts your argument.

But I would like to bring the use of the sith variant of battle meditation to ahead since Caedus knows yet Revan who studied on Malachor and Korriban does not possess the technique since he would have used it during the JCW especially when Bastilla was using it to aid the republic so even with his superior ds knowledge there is at the very least one sith technique(I know it is useless here) that Revan does not have which makes me question what others that there might be. But we can't argue what ifs so I'm going to leave it at that.


But since we have to go by what we do know, I can't see Revan emerging as the victor.


Could Aleema produce illusions that manipulated Luke Skywalker into thinking his wife was in serious danger of dying or could her illusions make Luke ignorant to the fact that Lumiya was standing mere feet from him. (though Luke could sense he could only do so faintly and had no clue she was literally standing in front of him)
As shown in his duel with Mara illusions can very effective in battle even if it causes only a split second of hesitation from your opponent.


Kreia was able to cut off 3 experienced jedi masters who were expecting a fight from the force so it is possible. You also have to look at how casually he does it to Ben who didn't even know it happened to him till he tried to use the force.


I did a quick check in Betreyal and couldn't find it. Although I'm positive it exists I'll drop it until I could find it though it doesn't take away from him and Luke moving as blurs in inferno.


That can also be attributed to the fact that he
A) Had 1/3 of the republic fleet under his command
B) There was a one-two year gap between the mando. war and the JCW so the republic was not close to a complete recovery.
C) Star forge supplied ships
D)The very first known attack was on the shipyards at Foerost (which was a surprise attack too) where the sith captured the flee that was docked at the drydocks.

Caedus's battle awareness was very impressive in the 4v1 ambush where he used it to plot the trajectories of the incoming (GAG?) speeders which the jedi barely registered and was able to alter the course of one to help him injure Katarn who realized what was happening too late to stop it.


If that were true then how come Caedus knows the sith variant of Battle meditation yet Revan doesn't which he would have used in the JCW especially since Bastilla was using against his forces. Revan hasn't shown himself capable of using the techniques I listed which for the majority(FL) Jacen couldn't do before going on his 5 year journey.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's a great ability but how are you going to do that to a powerful force user?


Is there proof that is the exact same ability done the exact same way. Nomi Sunrider certainly didn't use a sith technique to cut Ulic off so it shows that there are different techniques to do it.


Not by revan, nor was the feat replicated against Tubrolaser fire which makes it more impressive. (not saying someone as powerfu as Luke couldn't do the same)


Revan has never shown to be able to do it let alone being able to keep up with someone like LOTF Luke.


Nihilus was able to stun(not sure if it is the same technique based on its description) it to the exile, Visas and Mandalore. So it is possible to land it on a fairly powerful opponent. We could be here all day debating if technique A would land on each other as easily as you say that it wont help Caedus against Revan, I can and will do the same for Revan's techniques since his infamous force storm was only used on non force sensitives. But the fact is that this Force Paralysis technique is another ability in his arsenal to use against Revan.


Well if Revan tries to escape/hide.....


Which we know next to nothing about other then fact that rituals scared bane.


Before Jacen went on his journey he could not, paralyze someone via the force, he didn't know how to hide himself in the force, he didn't know shatterpoint (not a sith technique) he couldn't produce illusions that fooled Luke Skywalker and he didn't know how to cut someone off from the force(no proof it is the same attack that kreia used).
Here are examples of Caedus using what he learned from his 5 year journey that can prove useful in combat yet we have no clue what techniques that Revan learned that would help him.



Because they are UNKNOWN so it is impossible to debate on them hence we go by what we know and based on what we know is that Caedus has more force techniques in his arsenal than Revan.


I would like for people to stop using kotor characters in vs matches but if they don't then I will make my judgment based on the known abilities which in this case Revan hasn't shown as many force abilities as Caedus which is why I give Caedus the win even in a strict force battle.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Do you have any other examples that of sith being able to take wounds that would leave others "paralyze" or how about the fact that Caedus could take multiple wounds that others may not be able to take and still put up a fight such as he does in Inferno.You know, Starkiller would be the perfect example. A dark Jedi trained from childhood by Darth Vader in some of the most brutal and abusive situations imaginable, and what happens when he unexpectedly gets stabbed through the gut? He hits the floor writhing in agony, essentially paralyzed.

And I'd throw in a mention of Mace Windu in Shatterpoint, but he's not a Sith.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
For the most part, in the SW mythos, more knowledge has equated to more power.When that knowledge is coupled with notable mastery and power. This is why the likes of Exar Kun, Yoda, Sidious, and Caedus are considered some of the most dangerous individuals in the mythos, and Odan-Urr, Jocasta Nu, and Tionne are not.

We know he probably had access to more knowledge than Vader, who was limited to what Palpatine let trickle down to him or what he could find on his own; we do not know how much of what was on Malachor, Korriban, and Ziost he actually studied, nor do we know the nature of what he did get to. You'll recall that much of what Bane studied from his weeks and weeks in the archives was philosophy and history.

I'll point you to Exar Kun; he amassed in a single day more knowledge than he could ever use in a lifetime. How does this help him?

Do you know why we call Revan an "unknown"? Because we know jack shit about his abilities in combat. We can't objectively compare his power to that of other characters in the saga, and we don't how how accomplished a duelist he is. In short, we do not know what he is capable of.

Vader, meanwhile, has some of the most extensive exposure in both cinematic and literary work of anyone in the saga. We know exactly how powerful he is, we know exactly how accomplished a duelist he is, and we know exactly what he is capable of, and we know that he is among the ranks of the upper-tier.

Then expect to be ignored very, very quickly. My stance has obscene amounts of evidence (plus logic!) backing it. Yours? None at all.

Off the top of my head? His immunity to pain and the shatterpoint charism.

Please name me anything Revan learned that is valuable in a fight.

Prove that Revan was ready and able to use these "techniques," which were likely referring to rituals in the mold of the planet-storm and the thought-bomb. Then prove that any of these could be used in combat.

Name one. I want to hear your argument, not Gideon's.

If Revan isn't powerful enough to actually hit Caedus with one of his completely unknown mystery techniques, he's going to end up like Odan-Urr; humiliated, and dead.

Originally posted by Faunus
When that knowledge is coupled with notable mastery and power. This is why the likes of Exar Kun, Yoda, Sidious, and Caedus are considered some of the most dangerous individuals in the mythos, and Odan-Urr, Jocasta Nu, and Tionne are not.
And according to KOTOR Revan isn't considered on your first list? That's very strange. Is that just because you don't know his specific techniques?


He had time to study, although how much I don't know. But he PLUNDERED those underground cities on Malachor V, he PLUNDERED Korriban.


Seeing as how Revan had a year or two in between plundering Malachor V and getting captured, I don't see how it's the same thing.





And what exactly does Caedus have on Revan besides the shatterpoint? These amazing esoteric force techniques?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And according to KOTOR Revan isn't considered on your first list? That's very strange. Is that just because you don't know his specific techniques?It's because I don't know anything substantial about him, period. We have Traya saying that looking at him was like looking into the heart of the Force, and that's literally it as far as power goes.

Which means he took what was there, not that he used all of what he took.

It's not the same thing. It's a comparison to try and get my point across; just because Revan had access to planets' worth of knowledge doesn't mean he studied all of it. And given a year, two years, I find it extraordinarily unlikely that he studied anywhere near all of it.

Caedus has power. He is more powerful than Darth Vader, and nearly as powerful as PT Palpatine. Caedus has skill. His proficiency with the blade is such that he notes - with one arm blown off and countless other wounds scarring his visage - that there was only one swordsman in the galaxy he wouldn't attempt to fight one-handed. While we all know who that one swordsman is, that's Kyle Katarn he's leaving out. He is cunning, virtually immune to pain and the effects of physical injury, and has the second widest range of knowledge of anyone in the mythos, which should mean a lot to you considering the basis for your argument in favor of Revan.

That's quite a bit, actually, and with all of that taken into account there are maybe four or five characters I would say have a shot at taking him in combat; Revan isn't one of them.

I need some clarification here. I'm not sure, but did Caedus discover the ritual for the Thought Bomb? No where have I read or looked up on Wiki does sit say he found the ritual of the Thought Bomb. Would the other Force sensitives he encountered in his 5 year sabatical, training under Vergere & Lumiya taught him that devastating power. I'm definitely sure Sidious knew it, but might have been reluctant to use it. After all, he did have a few superweapons at his disposal.

There are many valid arguments for Caedus. All of you have presented strong cases and evidence, but what powers has Caedus not discovered? For example let's say Force drain. I'm not sure if Revan knew Force drain, but I'm damn sure Caedus didn't.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I need some clarification here. I'm not sure, but did Caedus discover the ritual for the Thought Bomb? No where have I read or looked up on Wiki does sit say he found the ritual of the Thought Bomb.
I would doubt it, mostly because of Caedus's shortage of Sith knowledge. The TB is a very Sith technique.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

Would the other Force sensitives he encountered in his 5 year sabatical, training under Vergere & Lumiya taught him that devastating power. I'm definitely sure Sidious knew it, but might have been reluctant to use it. After all, he did have a few superweapons at his disposal.
Sidious almost definitely did know it, he had access to the Telos holocron and Darth Bane's holocron, both of which are good candidates for containing the ritual. I'm not really sure what the significance is though, because knowledge of the thought bomb will not be useful at all during a fight.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent

There are many valid arguments for Caedus. All of you have presented strong cases and evidence, but what powers has Caedus not discovered? For example let's say Force drain. I'm not sure if Revan knew Force drain, but I'm damn sure Caedus didn't.

Caedus cut Ben off from the Force without alerting him to the loss- Ben only noticed that he'd lost his powers when he tried to access them. So Jacen is capable of cutting people off from the Force.
Actually, I'm not sure if there is a difference between that and Force drain.

Well said Red, but the power Traya aka Kreia used against the 3 Masters in KOTOR2 - cutting someone off the Force like they (the Masters) attempted on The Exile was suppossed to be "nonpainful." But whatever Traya used killed all 3 of them. What power was that and is it possible that Caedus was taught that power or didn't even know of it's existance? It does seem to me that a lot of the old Sith powers died with Sidious.

Also a quick question - what new lightsaber form did Luke develop? Was it a variation of Juyo?

We know Caedus can cut people off from the Force. Whether it is the same thing used there is another story.

As i've said before, Caedus ftw. Revan

Originally posted by Lethal Rogue
As i've said before, Caedus ftw. Revan

'Revan'.... what?

Revan

No.

Revan would get slaughtered utterly by Caedus.

One armed or two armed Caedus?

Even one-armed, Caedus was capable of manhandling Jaina, and believed that he was still better than anyone else but Luke.

So unless some new evidence comes out pointing to Revan being a better duelist than Jaina or Kyle Katarn, there's no reason to assume he could lay a finger on Caedus.

Revan had no body part ever cut off, that should be a testament to his skills.

Coleman Trebor, Zett Jukassa, and TPM Anakin never had a body part cut off, either. Therefore, they >> Caedus?

How many of them fought Sith?

When did Revan fight a Sith? Hell, when did Caedus fight a Sith?

Caedus was a Sith.

Besides, didnt he spar with Lumiya

Well, he isn't trying to cut off his own limbs, so how is that relevant in the context of your question?

You know what the one deciding feature is?

No...?

haermm

He didn't get a limb hacked off so that's testament to his skill?

LOL.

Wow.

Even all the other Revan fanboys and fangirls are shaking their head at that one. I've got a feeling you just lost your place at the lunch table.

Originally posted by Faunus
No...?

Revan's got an action figure.

Hey. REX says no calling people fanboys, PALPATINE-LOVER.

Originally posted by Nactous
Revan's got an action figure. ****.

QED.

lol

Tangible beats intangible any-day.

Originally posted by Nactous
Revan had no body part ever cut off, that should be a testament to his skills.

Obiwan Kenobi is god then, since he was responsible for Anakin losing his remaining limbs in ROTS, Hett(who would become Darth Krayt) lost an arm to Kenobi in their duel, he cur Darth Maul in two, and he took off that aliens arm in ANH. Therefore Kenobi pwns all and is officially the man.

QED.

That might have been a bad example though, because Obi Wan Kenobi does pwn all and is the man.

Just sayin'

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan Kenobi is god then, since he was responsible for Anakin losing his remaining limbs in ROTS, Hett(who would become Darth Krayt) lost an arm to Kenobi in their duel, he cur Darth Maul in two, and he took off that aliens arm in ANH. Therefore Kenobi pwns all and is officially the man.

Well it's true. And Maul's still a *****. ermm

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
And Maul's still a *****. ermm
......That would still put a fight vs ROTS Kenobi.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan Kenobi is god then, since he was responsible for Anakin losing his remaining limbs in ROTS, Hett(who would become Darth Krayt) lost an arm to Kenobi in their duel, he cur Darth Maul in two, and he took off that aliens arm in ANH. Therefore Kenobi pwns all and is officially the man. I was going to say this, but that'd just validate his point; Kenobi is the man.

I'm not a fan, actually. A lot of his one-liners aren't that funny. Qui-Gon Jinn is badass. Dooku is badass. Sidious is badass. Grievous is badass. Yoda is badass. Luke is badass. Vader is badass. Tarkin is badass. Turr Phennir is the Crown Prince of badass.

Pellaeon is the god of badass.

You have a sick mind, friend.

Who the fvck is Turr Phennir?

I could slap you right now.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan Kenobi is god then, since he was responsible for Anakin losing his remaining limbs in ROTS, Hett(who would become Darth Krayt) lost an arm to Kenobi in their duel, he cur Darth Maul in two, and he took off that aliens arm in ANH. Therefore Kenobi pwns all and is officially the man.
You forgot Zam in AOTC

I need a new username...

******* is available, I think. Suits you.

Why is "*******" censored but "shit" and "ass" aren't?

Edit: Hell, I can't even find the option to change it. WTF.

I don't know.

Ass and hole was what I suggested.

I realize, turd. I see through asterisks like Nebaris through your mother'sDarth Sexy's window.

chill you two.

Originally posted by Lethal Rogue
chill you two.
No, their bickering is funny.

yeah...

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No, their bickering is funny.

Agreed.

If Gideon wasn't such a dumb tool, we might actually have intelligent conversations once in a while.

After Sidious was destroyed, the true Sith went extinct. Exar Kun's spirit that left Luke in a coma and tried to take over Kyp's body possibly could have resurrected the Sith Order, but that failed. We'll never know. Nothing remained that could true Sith. The "Sith" on Korriban in the LOTF series were frauds. "One Master One Apprentice - One to embody the power the other to crave it."

Caedus was extremely powerful in the Force. His 5 year journey taught him many aspects of the Force. But his Sith training primarily came from Lumiya who had a very limited knowledge of Sith teachings. Vader was versed in Sith teachings, but not all. Lumiya was actually like Starkiller and Mara - assasins. In my opinion, Starkiller would definitely be able to kick Lumiya's ass in all aspects: Force, Lightsaber and All Out - he did kill Shak Ti. If Starkiller remained dark side he have been a far better Master to Caedus. Starkiller did know some Sith teachings and was strong in the Force. After all, he was Vader's "apprentice." If he was ambitious enough, he could have killed Vader.

Jacen/Caedus was already well on his way to the dark side. Each man/woman makes their own choice to become a Sith. It all depends on what powers they are taught. As some of you point out, Bane wouldn't try some of the rituals because they were so dangerous. Bane did point out that Revan was a true Sith Lord.

But we have to consider why Revan would want to much less know how to perform these rituals. Caedus cut Ben off from the Force - a powerful technique indeed. But why wouldn't Caedus want more destructive power much less crave it? The true Sith were extinct and Caedus claimed the title of Sith Lord. But according to my knowledge in order to become a Sith Lord, doesn't one have to kill their Master? Caedus never killed Vergere or Lumiya. Opinions anyone?

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Jacen/Caedus was already well on his way to the dark side. Each man/woman makes their own choice to become a Sith. It all depends on what powers they are taught. As some of you point out, Bane wouldn't try some of the rituals because they were so dangerous. Bane did point out that Revan was a true Sith Lord.

But we have to consider why Revan would want to much less know how to perform these rituals. Caedus cut Ben off from the Force - a powerful technique indeed. But why wouldn't Caedus want more destructive power much less crave it? The true Sith were extinct and Caedus claimed the title of Sith Lord. But according to my knowledge in order to become a Sith Lord, doesn't one have to kill their Master? Caedus never killed Vergere or Lumiya. Opinions anyone?
Opinions yes, we know the history of the sith order so you didn't have to type that first paragraph.Caedus isn't a true sith because the sith died out with Palpatine. He did attempt to kill Luymiya in Sacrifice but Mara kind of screwed that up, and the rituals are useless in one on one combat and you are really starting to get annoying with this whole craving power concept because if you read LOTF then you would that Caedus does crave power since he was the one who came up with the idea of removing Cal Almas from office.

EDIT:Vegere sacrificed herself in the vong war for Jacen/Jaina(?) and Jacen wasn't even close to becoming a sith or a full fledged dark sider yet. If you wan to continue this debate then fine but bring up some real points not this crap that is irrelevant to the thread.

Power - I meant Force wise, not political. Jacen/Caedus sought to save the GA which he did from a certain point of view. Daala was placed in charge and it's no secret she doesn't like Force-users.

Craving power has everything to do with being Sith. Revan sought power that would bring ultimate destruction. Caedus fought in the YV War, Joiner Crisis & 2nd GCW. Throughout those conflicts he learned various diferrent Force abilities from other cultures. Revan however after the Mandalorian Wars, disappeared for 2 years and returned a Sith Lord after plundering Malachor V and Korriban for example.

Caedus never fought a true Sith Lord in combat. Revan did. He fought and killed Malak in both a mastery of the dark side and lightsaber. I believe if Caedus fought a true Sith Lord like Revan, he would be destroyed. I'm not saying it'd be quick and easy no. Revan would probably die due to his wounds, but Caedus would lose. Revan's mastery and knowledge of the dark side is just too strong. Revan understood ancient Sith teachings. Caedus did not.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Power - I meant Force wise, not political. Jacen/Caedus sought to save the GA which he did from a certain point of view.
Much like Revan.


Not exactly, Revan originally sought power so he could save the galaxy from the true sith...


He spent 5 years traveling the galaxy between NJO and DNT and learned stuff that frightened experienced jedi like Mara.



All we know is that he learned the thought bomb and the "force storm" ritual booth of which are useless here so please share to us ho learning unknown abilities/rituals are going to help Revan when you can't even describe them to us. Based on what we know Caedus knows more abilities that would benefit him in combat.


Great so one must now fight a true sith lord to be one. Sidious never fought his master, he murdered him in his sleep so he must not be a true sith lord either. Revan never fought a true sith to become a sith lord either. Furthermore Revan defeated Malak as a lightsider are you willing to tell me that a jedi will use the uber sith knowledge that you keep posting about to defeat a sith. No.


You are far from proving it or making a convincing argument. Hell your entire argument has been: "Revan is more sithly and craves power while Caedus is not a true sith, therefore Revan wins. Once again provide real evidnce that Revan is superior, as we have already stated, Caedus has shown us more abilities to use in combat,he has a broader knowledge of the force than Revan, he is of skywalker blood, a better saber duelist, and can take more pain than virtually every other character in sw.



Yeah because Caedus doesn't know about all the uber powers Revan knows, force lighting and force choke.........what else does REvan got that we actually debate on.



By Invincible Caedus understood the art of sith battle meditation,which the ancient sith are known for yet Revan has never shown us the ability,curious. By this logic is there proof Revan "understand" the teachings of the force cultures that Caedus traveled to and be able to combat them? No.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Power - I meant Force wise, not political. Jacen/Caedus sought to save the GA which he did from a certain point of view. Daala was placed in charge and it's no secret she doesn't like Force-users.
This has nothing to do with anything. In no way can this be used to compare Revan and Caedus.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

Craving power has everything to do with being Sith. Revan sought power that would bring ultimate destruction. Caedus fought in the YV War, Joiner Crisis & 2nd GCW. Throughout those conflicts he learned various diferrent Force abilities from other cultures. Revan however after the Mandalorian Wars, disappeared for 2 years and returned a Sith Lord after plundering Malachor V and Korriban for example.
We all know the storyline to KotOR and most of us have read the LotF series. (Some of us regret the latter decision, though.)

Spelling out SW history doesn't make your argument more persuasive. If anything it lessens the efficacy of your points because it ticks people off. (Making them less likely to want to agree with you.)
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

Caedus never fought a true Sith Lord in combat. Revan did. He fought and killed Malak in both a mastery of the dark side and lightsaber.
Revan fought Malak. Caedus fought Luke, Kyp, EDIT:Jaina, Kyle, Mara and a whole host of other upper tier combatants. You will have to prove that fighting Malak is more impressive than Caedus's various showings against more powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent

I believe if Caedus fought a true Sith Lord like Revan, he would be destroyed.
Simply being a Sith Lord does not make one invulnerable- Maul was a Sith Lord and he would ruin Maul.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

I'm not saying it'd be quick and easy no. Revan would probably die due to his wounds, but Caedus would lose. Revan's mastery and knowledge of the dark side is just too strong. Revan understood ancient Sith teachings. Caedus did not.
This is the only part of your post that actually advances your point. (For future reference, it might help if you decide what you want to say before you start your post, to ensure that you stay 'on message.' The paragraphs lecturing us on plotlines are generally unnecessary.)

Sadly, these are points that I've already addressed. Revan's mastery of the Force appears to have been tied up in rituals, and the extent of his combat knowledge is completely unknown. Caedus is stronger in the Force (skywalker bloodline) and has shown greater mastery (in the form of numerous techniques) than has Revan.

There is nothing upon which to base a claim of Revan's superiority.

When did Caedus fight Kyp?

Isn't that the one where the Jedi Strike team has to get the tracer on him? Caedus ends up throwing a speeder bike at someone...


I might be wrong. I haven't read the books for a while. Time for another run through.

Originally posted by Faunus
When did Caedus fight Kyp?
Never did, though RN could replace his name with Jaina's instead.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Isn't that the one where the Jedi Strike team has to get the tracer on him? Caedus ends up throwing a speeder bike at someone...


I might be wrong. I haven't read the books for a while. Time for another run through.
Kyp volunteered to lead it but wasn't chosen to, the team consisted of Kyle Katarn, Valin Horn,Kolir Hu'lya, Thann Mithric(who would get decapitated) and Seha Dorval though the latter didn't fight in the battle but was responsible for the tracking device and moving the injured Kyle away from the battle.

In RTOJ, didn't Luke use Force choke against the Gamorrean guard in Jaba's Palace? It is safe to assume that both Jedi and Sith can use that power. And Luke was far from a Jedi Knight at the time. All of us have to agree with that part.

You make a mention that Caedus thrived on pain. That is true yes and so did Sion. But, the human body can only take so much. In the epic lightsaber battle between Jaina and Caedus, Jaina severed his Achilles tendon. As a former track runner, an injury to the Achilles is nearly "fatal" for an athlete (puts the entire career at risk). Therefore Caedus ability to fight was reduced dramatically. Although struck by FL, Jaina could have killed him even if he didn't give up.

Battle Meditation - We may never know if Revan knew Battle Meditation, but he was a master tactition. No battle plan goes according to plan in the face of the enemy and tracers work both ways. Caedus's meditation was disrupted by Allana's betrayal.

When I made a mention of true Sith Lord, does anyone believe that Caedus could actually kill a powerful Sith like Sidous? I'm making a mention of Sidious because he was the last true Sith Lord. All of his knowledge of the dark side were amassed by Bane who found Revan's holocron which taught him more about the dark side and Sith than his original training at the so called Sith Academy during his era. Sidious probably developed other powers that we don't know about. We'll never know. Now think if he faced Revan who knew the rituals and the unknown powers that were not mentioned? That's why I say he would be destroyed.

Other than Luke, Caedus was the most accomplished lightsaber artist. However, I believe he is not that skilled of an all out fighter. I agree that Mara used her surroundings in the cave to her advantage which is brilliant. A textbook ambush which caught him off guard. He also took a shoto lightsaber wound from her. But how skilled is Revan? He was able to fight with two lightsabers which is extremely difficult. Many martial artists can't master it.

Elite I can always count on you to provide evidence, but I think I deal with theoretical, unpredictability and unknowns. You always have to take into account the unpredictability factor. What if Revan unleashed a focused FS on Caedus or severed his connection to the Force during a lightsaber battle? We'll never know because they are seperated by 4,000 years.